Two debates on Family Scholars Blog

Too much drawing for me to post much today, but I did want to point out two threads on Family Scholars Blog.

First, check out this thread about a 22-year-old man who tried to marry his pregnant, 13-year-old girlfriend but got charged with statutory rape instead. What’s interesting is that one of the frequent anti-SSM comment-writers there is arguing that SSM is actually more despicable than this man’s statutory rape of a 13 year old. (Thanks to Josh Jasper for pointing this one out to me.)

Secondly, check out this thread, in which various anti-SSM folks argue that it’s not discrimination for doctors to refuse to administer artificial insemination to a woman because she’s a lesbian. (I couldn’t resist posting on this thread myself).

This entry posted in Families structures, divorce, etc, Same-Sex Marriage. Bookmark the permalink. 

71 Responses to Two debates on Family Scholars Blog

  1. 1
    Nick Kiddle says:

    Nice to see John Howard arguing that I have no right to do what I did.

  2. 2
    Jesurgislac says:

    (I couldn’t resist posting on this thread myself).

    Having had one go-round with these people already, I found I could easily resist embarking on another one.

    Still, it was nice to read your sane’n’sensible comments in the middle of all their BS.

  3. 3
    Josh Jasper says:

    According to Mr. Howard, I ought to be in jail for fornication.

  4. 4
    Jake Squid says:

    Holy fuck! Is Family Scholars where all the crazies go to ferment? John Howard, F. Rottles, Marty & On Lawn? Right there is hell itself. Another brilliant, shining example of what anti-SSM folks are all about. These people have no shame about their bigotry.

  5. 5
    John Howard says:

    No Josh, just so you know, your crime is different. Fornication is sex without marriage, and is a short jail term. Nick and poor Lindsay would both be out by now, but you could possibly be in for twenty years! Neat, huh?

  6. 6
    lucia says:

    The man should go to prison, just like Mary Kay Letourneau.

    Then, the biological father will be an incarcerated father, just as Mary Kay Leourneau was the incarcerated mother.

    States routinely imprison people who violate laws; I have yet to hear of a “but he’s a father or a mother” exemption.

    I hope something in Nebraska law ensures the girl’s parent’s financial obligation to support here were not nullified when she married in Kansas (with her mother’s consent.)

  7. 7
    Imagynne says:

    *BANG* *splatter*

    That’s the sound of my head exploding and leaving my brains all over my monitor. Why do I do this to myself?

    Repeat after me: No idiot conservative blogs on happy Friday afternoons.

  8. 8
    Thomas says:

    Mr. Howard, your response to Josh in disingenuous. The existence of a statute does not mean that it is operative. Here in New York, for example, People v. Onofre has granted the constitutional right to non-commercial, non-public sex between consenting adults since 1980. I would guess that Massachusetts came to a similar conclusion long ago, and even if that were not the case, the Supreme Court’s decision in Lawrence, handed down in June 2003 and invalidating the Texas sodomy statute, extended similar protection in all 50 states. You no doubt know this, and your claim that Josh is a criminal is therefore not only materially false and misleading, but surely it is knowingly so.

    It is of course possible that you were attempting some sort of mean humor. If joking about throwing people in jail for behavior you don’t like is funny, then I will decline to join the merriment and concede that I am humor-impaired.

  9. 9
    B says:

    That discussion is soo strange. What purpose does all the word-bending serve? It doesn’t cease to be discrimination because you don’t want to seem like a bigot. “A rose by any other name is stil a rose” – and so forth. My married friends just got a little daughter through insemination. She is terribly sweet and looks exactly like the two of them even though her sperm came from a donor. They both take turns breastfeeding her and I count her lucky to have such great mothers.

    See, where I live gays marry and live their lives just like the rest of us. It’s only perverse extremists like those on that board who could ever equate what my friends have with the rape of a child. It sickens me to see the spread of such corruptive hate-mongering.

  10. 10
    John Howard says:

    Lawrence doesn’t apply to crimes against nature. All Lawrence said was that the state can’t criminalize consensual private activity between individuals. But a crime AGAINST nature is obviously not consensual, as Nature cannot consent to anything, much like animals cannot consent. Nature also can’t be taken inside a private dwelling even if it could consent, for it is too big to fit. No, I’m not being funny. Fear is the appropriate response.

  11. 11
    B says:

    John Howard
    What do you consider a crime against nature?
    Why?
    What are you afraid of?

  12. 12
    zuzu says:

    Nature provided me with a clitoris; why shouldn’t I get to use it?

  13. 13
    Nick Kiddle says:

    There are countries that already have criminal penalties for fornication: it’s part of what’s called Sharia law. I imagine even John Howard feels the penalties are slightly out of proportion to the crime, but I wonder how he would ensure they were applied equally rather than, as under Sharia law, the majority of the punishment falling on the women.

  14. 14
    Thomas says:

    Mr. Howard, in No. 5 above, I assumed you were saying that Josh had sex with men when you refered to his “crime.” You appear now to be saying that he has sex with animals. I think I have missed something. Would you please share with us the factual basis for the assertion that Josh has sex with animals?

  15. 15
    Amanda says:

    I feel dirty now, Amp. That site is scary.

  16. 16
    BritGirlSF says:

    I am perplexed. Why is it that Josh should go to jail for 20 years. What exactly is his “crime against nature”? He seems like a nice enough bloke to me.

  17. 17
    Josh Jasper says:

    Even with Bush at the helm, the nation isn’t scary enough to worry about raving nutcases like Mr. Spam And Eggs taking over.

    But don’t worrry your little head (or what’s left of it after you consider all the insanity that normaly dwells there) I fuck women too, so you can jail me for multiple counts of fornication as well.

    Care to try a citizens arrest?

  18. 18
    alsis39 says:

    It’s all right. Fornicators will only go to country-club jails, I’m sure. Like those Enron bigwigs. The inmates can entertain themselves with drag shows and brewing their own hooch from grapefruit juice. Just think of it as a slightly more regulated Club Med.

  19. 19
    Jesurgislac says:

    Lawrence doesn’t apply to crimes against nature.

    To quote a famous piece of gay graffiti: “If God had meant men to have sex with each other, He would have put a hole in the middle of their bottoms.”

    (Though I prefer the version “If God had meant women to have sex with each other, She would have given us fingers and a clitoris.”)

  20. 20
    ginmar says:

    Jeez, John Howard calls Josh unnatural. How much more blatant can you get?

  21. 21
    Jesurgislac says:

    John Howard: No Josh, just so you know, your crime is different.

    I clicked on the link and discovered that I was at Chapter 272: Section 34 Crime against nature. Interested, I went to look up what the actual meaning of the legal language “abominable and detestable crime against nature” (IANAL) and discovered that apparently oldtime it’s legalspeak for sodomy.

    Now this raises some really interesting questions, but of them all, the one I really want an answer to is: How does John Howard know that Josh has committed sodomy? Josh hasn’t mentioned any details about what he likes to do with his sexual partners, AFAIK, which means that the only way I think John could know is either (a) he was watching (b) he’s screwed.

    Which would it be, John?

  22. 22
    ginmar says:

    Jesus H. Fucking Christ, those people are sick fucks. I mean, fucking Christ, theyr’e sick. I finally read the whole thing I’m and it was horrifying. Basically, if you stick some sperm in a vagina and get her pregnant, however old she is, you’re a daddy and it’s okay. Pregnancy is the only thing that legitimizes sex.

    Our esteemed John Howard was the one who invoked boys will be boys, with a witty dash of Oh! That uncontrollable male libido!

    That can’t help the kid much, or the mother, for that matter, but, as with all fornication punishment, it might have a deterrent effect on other people doing what this guy did, which was only following his libido, after all. At least there was no “sham” going on here.

    So the fetus is now a kid, practically out of diapers, and the rape victim is a mother, and the guy’s crime was just a matter of nature. At least, you know, it wasn’t a sham, whatever that means. IF this guy is such an honest rapist, why is everyone else trying to make him out to be something other than a rapist?

    Truly, people, Gilead has arrived.

  23. 23
    ginmar says:

    http://www.omaha.com/index.php?u_pg=1638&u_sid=1468778&u_rnd=1465985

    It appears both the girl and the man are of diminished capacity. Not sure what that means, really, but it at a minimum this girl should have been supervised better, as thirteen-year-olds are vulnerable enough.

  24. 24
    john howard says:

    I thought josh was gay and he said had committed fornication, and i just wanted him to know that fornication is SEX, not sodomy. We don’t have a law against sodomy, because it isn’t the sodomy that is so bad, it is the crime against nature. No, they arn’t exactly the same things, they are sort of like manslaughter and murder, the distinction is in the intent to harm nature. Sodomy harms nature but that wasn’t the intent, much like manslaughter.

    And ginmar, as I wrote repeatedly, I never meant to excuse that guy’s actions, or imply he shouldn’t have to go to jail for a long time. I was applying the arguments I often here that as long as the attraction is honest, it shouldn’t be repressed, it is OK to follow it, in order to show how dumb that argument is.

  25. 25
    lucia says:

    Thanks for the link Ginmar.

    Interstingly, it looks like Nebraska is very serious about pursuing these things. (And, I approve of that.) They also appear to recognize the marriage (as required by Federal Law) but nevertheless does not permit sex with minors, even if you marry them! (See the case of the Iraqi’s below.)

    Also, in practice, the jail times appear are similar to what Mary Kay Letourneau got.

    At least, that’s what I infer from this:

    Bruning said he will act on any case of adult men having sex with underage girls that is brought to his attention.

    Earlier this year, his office filed sexual assault charges against a former deputy Cheyenne County attorney. Greg Lauby, 57, pleaded guilty last month to having sex with a 13-year-old Colorado girl whom he met on a telephone chat line.

    Lancaster County attorneys charged two Iraqi men in 1997 with first-degree sexual assault based on having sexual relations with the 13- and 14-year-old girls they had married. They pleaded guilty and were sentenced to two to six years in prison.

    It is a unfortunate that both the child bride and her adult groom appear to have limited mental capacities. Clearly, this is a sad situation all around.

  26. 26
    ginmar says:

    Hey, John? I could waste time on you after that execrable ‘he was only following his libido’ bullshit, but you’re not up to the bar.

  27. 27
    Kim (basement variety!) says:

    From CourtTV:

    Koso’s lawyer, Willis Yoesel, said the girl’s mother and Koso’s parents approved of the marriage. He said the girl’s father has not lived with the family for some time.

    “It seems to me like they, as much as they could, made a responsible decision to try to cope with the problem,” Yoesel said.

    “The families are all united in this effort,” Yoesel said. “I don’t know who is complaining. … What benefit is there to anybody in the prosecution of this young man?”

  28. 28
    Jesurgislac says:

    John: I thought josh was gay and he said had committed fornication, and i just wanted him to know that fornication is SEX, not sodomy.

    And again, John – how do you know, unless you were there at the time, that the sex Josh had was sodomy? Are you saying you were there when Josh was having sex, either watching or partaking? If you don’t wish claim to be a witness or a participant, perhaps you should stop claiming to know what you cannot otherwise possibly know.

  29. 29
    ginmar says:

    A responsible decsion that has a bunch of guys slavering over a ‘fertile’ young woman. Someone counted at least seven instances of these sleazeballs salivating over the thought of such a young girl.

    Christ on a pony.

  30. 30
    Josh Jasper says:

    I thought josh was gay and he said had committed fornication, and i just wanted him to know that fornication is SEX, not sodomy. We don’t have a law against sodomy, because it isn’t the sodomy that is so bad, it is the crime against nature.

    Actualy, I comit both sodomy and fornication, neither of which are crimes ouside of Iran and other places where you’d fit right in.

    Sodomy harms nature

    SUVs, strip mining and acid rain harm nature. Sodomy harms the tender sensibilities of uptight morons, bozos with absurd religious rules, and bigoted nitwits.

    I get a sense of glee every time I enjoy sodomy for just that reason.

    I was applying the arguments I often here that as long as the attraction is honest, it shouldn’t be repressed, it is OK to follow it, in order to show how dumb that argument is.

    You intentionaly left out the bit about consenting adults.

  31. 31
    B says:

    John Howard makes me want to be a gay man. Wait – maybe I should ask my gay friends if they want to be the fathers of my children. That way we’ll ensure the continuation of both the gay genes and my rabid manhating feminist genes.

    And then – world domination. *vbg*

  32. 32
    ginmar says:

    John Howard bitched about blasphemy in the other thread, too. I feel this great urge to blaspheme and commit sodomy. Except of course, because I’m not like that it won’t be with an underage minor.

    I feel better already.

  33. 33
    Antigone says:

    I’m quite sure this will be deleted, but I might make it passed the screener.

    I have never married, and I never intend to get married.

    I’ve had sex with multiple partners.

    I use contraception.

    I’ve done anal AND oral.

    FUCK YOUR GOD.

    let’s see, how many sins is that? Independent female, fornications, sodomy, and blasphemy. There has to be something else I can throw in there….

    Joshua of Nazarethe had sex before he got strung up on a cross.

    There, that’s heresy.

    Goddess, I love America.

  34. 34
    Antigone says:

    Hehe, I’m a syncophant apparently.

  35. Secondly, check out this thread, in which various anti-SSM folks argue that it’s not discrimination for doctors to refuse to administer artificial insemination to a woman because she’s a lesbian. (I couldn’t resist posting on this thread myself).
    It might be discrimination. (It clearly is discrimination; an issue is whether it is good or bad discrimination.) But if we believe Roe v Wade, it is not the sort of discrimination the government may interfere in. There is a right of privacy between the doctor and the patient which would be violated if the government were to try to micromanage that relationship.

  36. 36
    Jesurgislac says:

    Aardvaark: There is a right of privacy between the doctor and the patient which would be violated if the government were to try to micromanage that relationship.

    Huh?

    What right of privacy is being violated if the government says a doctor isn’t allowed to discriminate against their patients?

  37. 37
    ginmar says:

    Jesus Christ. Good or bad discrimination? Spoken like somebody who thinks there’s ‘good’ discrimination.

  38. 38
    alsis39 says:

    I want a polyamorous marriage with Antigone and all the other heretics on this thread. But I don’t know how I’m gonna’ bring home the bacon for a half-dozen or so spouses on only $10 an hour.

    Love is hell. I hope you all like mac ‘n cheese a lot.

  39. 39
    ginmar says:

    Dude, with all of us we can surely afford more. Besides, it’s amazing what you can do with mac and cheese after a little French vacation. I’ll never look at pasta and fromage the same way ever again.

  40. 40
    Jesurgislac says:

    alsis39 Writes: Love is hell. I hope you all like mac ‘n cheese a lot.

    You haven’t lived till you’ve tasted my mac’n’cheese made with wholegrain mustard. Looks like this is going to be one of those weddings where the spouses outnumber the guests.

  41. 41
    Jake says:

    Oh alsis, I’m sure you wouldn’t be the only one bringing home the bacon. it would be a reasonably equal marriage, wouldn’t it?

  42. Pingback: aldahlia

  43. Pingback: aldahlia

  44. 42
    aldahlia says:

    I messed up that first trackback. Sorry about that.

  45. 43
    Antigone says:

    alsis39:

    Sounds fantastic, but I’m making much better money :D. We wouldn’t have to eat Mac and Cheese, college has taught me how to make fantastically cheap meals. Do you all like potatoes in various forms of mutaliation (or baked)?

    Oh, and I’m not for pregnancy. Children might be discussed, but I’m not going to be the one bearing them :P.

  46. 44
    AndiF says:

    SOT but for SF fans, James Alan Gardner’s Vigilant (besides being a very good SF read) has a really satisfying version of a polyamorous group marriage.

    Back on topic. Reading that discussion really makes clear the perverse attitude toward family of the anti-SSM crowd — all that matters is the ability to “produce” children by inserting a penis in a vagina.

  47. 45
    Lee says:

    Heinlein also addressed polyamorous marriages in “Time Enough for Love,” which is unusual for him, as most of the time he explored various forms of heterosexual group marriages.

  48. 46
    Kim (basement variety!) says:

    Yes, but to my knowledge, Heinlein only includes women whose nipples go ‘sprung’, which is a form of discrimination in and of itself. Truly, should we turn to such a sort for our insight on marriage dynamics?!

  49. 47
    Rock says:

    Amp,

    When I first read your request that John H. not post for a while I felt it was a little harsh, I apologize. I felt your posts on the second thread were erudite and clear. Your title refers to scholars though… it is a misnomer.

    I feel ashamed at being a guy when I read some of the responses. John H’s line about only following his libido, and then changing his story when confronted; and all that nonsense about fornication etc. what a fools fool. He is trying to hide his fear and insecurity behind lame intellectualism. I shudder when he talks about religion. What is his hang up over the source of the sperm and egg? Is any baby less of a miracle than another because of the source? (Who wouldn’t claim Sydney in a top hat?)

    I felt dirty and wanted to make amends to Josh for the comments Marty made to him. I hope that kind of trash is not a frequent occurrence in his life. Every now and again it seems we are really getting a handle on the bigotry and hate that fills so many… then we read that sort of filth.

    Their minimalizing of the guys responsibility and the consequences of raping a child with a mother that is no smarter than the dope that hurt her child… I am thoroughly disgusted.

    I shudder to think how Ms. Benitez felt when they explained she did not qualify to have a baby, what a horrible humiliation. If I had my choice, I would rather she have a baby than John H. without even knowing her views, knowing his, we are 90% sure the baby would be less likely to judge and condemn or hate it’s brothers and sisters.

    I thought at one time that BritGirl SF, Alsis39 and a few others were quick to hammer some folks, I am beginning to understand your frustration, I’m sorry. Blessings

  50. 48
    BritGirlSF says:

    Antigone, have I mentioned recently that I love you? I’d be happy to join the group marriage but alas I am already hitched. Which is a shame because I can do MUCH better than mac n cheese. Vietnamese curry or imam bayaldi anyone?

  51. 49
    alsis39 says:

    Jake, in this economy, I take nothing for granted. At least I now know that from a culinary standpoint, I’d never be bored no matter how many times I had to wistfully walk past the New Seasons and go to Safeway instead.

    ginmar, I positively draw the line at anything containing aspic. Nothing personal.

  52. 50
    ginmar says:

    What’s aspic? I cook peasant food: lots of French cheese, wine sauces, pasta, and sausage. I’m a carnivore.

  53. 51
    mousehounde says:

    Ginmar, Aspic is a dish in which ingredients are set into a gelatine, jelly-like substance made from reduced beef, veal, chicken, vegetable, or fish stock. Served cold. I think it is a aquired taste. My Mom is a fan of cooking shows. She has tried a few. Not something I would go to the trouble to make myself. Alsis is correct, avoid the Aspics.

  54. 52
    Tuomas says:

    Huh? Avoid the aspics? Grrr. Anti-aspic bigotry ;)… I’m not sure of the whole fish/vegetable aspics, haven’t seen it, haven’t tasted it, but (prepared) ham in small bits in aspics, called (translated) “rural jelly” is a fine thing to make sandwiches of with a proper bread (put a slice of that on a slice of bread. Actually, to me macaroni and cheese sounds weird, both are great separately, but together as a dish – that just cannot be right. But of course, these are matters of taste and shouldn’t be debated.

    About the “Family Scholars Blog” thing… It’s rather sad how much pseudo-intellectualism, word games and selective religiousness some people are willing to use for ulterior motives like bigotry and social control. But then again it’s nothing new on earth, I’m afraid.

  55. 53
    Lee says:

    Actually, Kim, Heinlein includes various combinations of sexual partners in “Time Enough for Love,” which is why I said it was unusual for him. I agree that the vast majority of the women in his books are panting to get knocked up, but AndIf’s comment immediately brought that particular book to mind. And to be fair to Heinlein, his men are generally panting to knock up a willing female partner, so it’s clearly SF and has no basis in reality. I think John Howard was channeling Heinlein for a while, when he was talking about how the sexiest thing a woman can say to a man is that she wants him to get her pregnant.

  56. 54
    Rock says:

    I am also an aspic and jellied consume` fan. I have made many, my favorites are classic spicy tomato aspic, (Though I add Cilantro, tiny shrimp and chilies amongst other things.) Aspics with seafood Mousses, and Seafood En Jelle` are the bomb, where hearts of palm, artichoke bottoms and seafood like gently poached scallops, lobster and shrimp mingle with smoked salmon and whitefish…. Served with a lightly herbed vinegrette or green mayonnaise…. YUM. Tuomas is right with the ham jelly, I still scoop out the marrow and eat it with the jelly sometimes on bread, but usually it never makes it past my fingers. Blessings.

  57. 55
    Antigone says:

    mmm…carnivore. I so love you.

    Ginmar, we’ve never met and there’s a difference in age, and neither of us is sexually attracted to the other, but I feel these minor differences could be addressed. We’re meant for each other! Let’s get married with BritGirl

  58. 56
    AndiF says:

    Ginmar and Antigone,

    If you’ve read any of the threads of family scholar you already know none of your differences are important to marriage and family. The only critical thing is to include one male so you can make babies with the Sperm-and-Egg® way.

    Mazel tov on your upcoming nuptials.

  59. 57
    lucia says:

    Well, the sperm and egg way has been violated again. Now, a dog has been cloned. I’m sure you read it or saw it on TV, but just in case S Korea unveils first dog clone.

    Snuppy, the cloned puppyy, is a very cute.

  60. 58
    lucia says:

    I just don’t want to go over there and get into it, but I couldn’t help noticing several on the Family Scholars thread associateing light sentences for child molestation in the Netherlands with SSM. Wait until someone tells him that in Texas, Robert Wayne Thompson was sentenced to 320 hours of crochet and probation for aggravated sexual assault of his 7 year old daughter.

  61. 59
    Brenda says:

    It’s funny how things come out scewed. Greg Lauby, the man who Nebraska so eagerly seeks to punish, was set up so that he could be stopped from blowing the whistle on the dirty cops in the district he was County Attorney for. he had already fired a few of them, who were committing domestic violence, when he met up with a person with a fake ID, who said they were of age, and now he is facing a jail sentence. Everything is not always as it appears, people!

  62. 60
    Julie says:

    Talk about viewpoints being skewed! Brenda seems to think that Greg Lauby was set up. However, I know the girl that he drove to Colorado to have sex with – starting when she was 12 years old – and whom he drove across state lines when she was 13. She was found in his house in Nebraska. NOT a set-up. He knew what he was doing.

  63. 61
    ginmar says:

    mmm…carnivore. I so love you.

    Ginmar, we’ve never met and there’s a difference in age, and neither of us is sexually attracted to the other, but I feel these minor differences could be addressed. We’re meant for each other! Let’s get married with BritGirl

    Deal! We’ll need a big house. I like Craftsman bungalows. What about you?

  64. 62
    mythago says:

    but I couldn’t help noticing several on the Family Scholars thread associateing light sentences for child molestation in the Netherlands with SSM

    I’m still waiting for them to explain why it’s OK for states to refuse to recognize other states’ same-sex marriages, but not OK for Nebraska to refuse to recognize a marriage between a man in his twenties and a twelve-year-old.

  65. 63
    alsis38 says:

    I want in on the marriage, too– Now that the whole aspic issue has been hammered out. In preparation, I even went out and found a cookbook about provincial French cuisine !

    I never say no to a commune/woman who says yes to Craftsman.

  66. 64
    ginmar says:

    All right, that’s it. We just have to find one big enough. I have to say, too, it doesn’t sound like I’m missing on much with the aspic.

  67. 65
    Nella says:

    Alsis – if the ducks and I can join in i can make my magic vegan mac n cheese. Just don’t ask why it’s magic.

  68. 66
    alsis39 says:

    If the ducks can hold their own against Devil Cat, I’m cool with it. Are we all moving to England, then ? I’m told most of the plants in my garden would do well over there, owing to the somewhat similar climate…

  69. 67
    ginmar says:

    How about France? I know a lovely little town south of Tours—or, hell, Tours itself—which has a lovely market and is just amazing in and of itself. How about we divide our time between France and England?

    God, this has become my new favorite fantasy existance. You guys are cracking me up.

    Also, I have four cats, two of whom are big kittens. Just so you know. If the ducks cuddle, they’ll probably do fine.

  70. 68
    Brenda Smith says:

    Julie, if you know the girl then you know she is a pathological liar, and lives with a man over the age of 30 right now. Her parents helped to perpetrate this travesty. I feel for the girl becuase she is obviously an imbalanced pawn in the whole thing. She was not raped, or forced. Greg did not know the harm he was getting into, nor that she was the age she was. He is paying dearly. I can tell you this much, I was homeless at the age of 14, and more than once somone tried to rope me into their nefarious schemes. I was lucky and did not succumb. But then I wasn’t a drug addict or prostitute at that age either. Understand that this case is not as you would like to mak it seem. And be fair; if you know this girl, you know she went WILLINGLY. Greg is a good person who would never have hurt anyone intentionally. I defend him, as a woman, a friend, and a person who was once 14 and on the streets and is not stupid about the truth. I suggest you do the same; be honest about this one. He WAS railroaded and set up, beleive me. Just becuase you know the girl doesn’t mean the facts have changed.

  71. 69
    Brenda Smith says:

    Also, Julie, I have too add what I already know: Even if you win an argument on the internet, you are still a retard. Knowing this, I have no reason to try and enlighten you further.