The Hand Scanner Of The Beast

Longtime “Alas” community member Jake Squid sent me this. Jake’s workplace recently installed hand scanners, which replace the old punch-card system for workers checking in and out of work. (The advantage for the company is, you can’t ask a friend to scan your hand for you).

The company that manufactures the hand-scanning system gave Jake’s employer this letter, to reproduce and distribute to their employees. This is not a prank; this letter is real. It’s interesting to imagine the complaints that they received which led them to develop a form letter.

The text of the letter is below the fold.

Header: Recognition Systems Inc

To Whom it May concern: It has come to the attention of Recognition Systems that some people have a particular concern about using our hand scanners which relates to their religious beliefs. The concern revolves around the detection or placement of what is described in the Scriptures as the mark of the Beast”.

We at Recognition Systems wish to first make it clear that our hand scanners

DO NOT IN ANY WAY HAVE THE ABILITY TO DETECT THE “MARK OF THE BEAST” OR ANY OTHER MARK ON A PERSON S HAND.
DO NOT IN ANY WAY HAVE THE ABILITY TO PLACE THE “MARK OF THE BEAST” OR ANY OTHER MARK ON A PERSON S HAND.

We at Recognition Systems understand that these fads alone may not completely allay the fears of these concerned individuals and would like to offer a solution that completely eliminates any concerns regarding the “mark of the Beast” In the Book of Revelations, chapter 13, verse 16, it is written, “he forced everyone, small and great. rich and poor, free and slave, to receive a mark on his right hand or on his forehead”. The Scriptures, regardless of version, consistently refer to the “mark of the Beast” being found or placed only on the RIGHT hand or forehead. Therefore, we suggest that any individual having concerns regarding the “mark of the Beast” be enrolled and use the hand scanner with their LEFT hand turned palm up.

Again. we wish to make it abundantly clear that Recognition System s hand scanners have absolutely nothing to do with the “mark of the Beast”. Yet it is important that any user concern be respected and ways be found to alleviate those concerns. We hope that this letter removes any concerns regarding the “mark of the Beast” and the use of our hand scanners.

RSI Management
Revised August 7. 1998

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66 Responses to The Hand Scanner Of The Beast

  1. 1
    Decnavda says:

    Corporate Totalitarianism versus Religious Nuts

    Whom do Republicans root for?

  2. 2
    Bjartmarr says:

    Oh, sure. That’s EXACTLY the kind of letter that I would EXPECT the manufacturer of a left-hand-mark-of-the-beast-imprinting device to write!

  3. 3
    nonskanse says:

    It’s a bit strange but not so strange when you realize how many people believe the thing about the mark of the beast word-for-word. Respect is good.

  4. 4
    jd says:

    I agree. I think that the sign-of-the-beast fears are nuts, but this shows how easily beliefs can be accommodated when they’re treated as important.

  5. 5
    Dee says:

    Okay, so a bunch of guys from the company with the handprint scanner were hanging around at the bar after work, and they decided to write a crazy letter to the scanner company, for laughs. The scanner company received the letter on a Friday afternoon, and sure enough, the answer was also written at the bar, by half-drunk employees who thought it was the funniest thing ever. And here it is on the web, bringing mirth to the whole world.

  6. 6
    Kevin Moore says:

    Respect, or – please stop sending us your end-days-paranoid letters, please. This memo might save a lot of paperwork in the long run.

  7. 7
    Mandolin says:

    I’m glad that it was easy to deal with these particular beliefs, but what about other beliefs that interfere with work? Such as those pharmacists who refuse to do their jobs and fill women’s prescriptions for birth control? I’m hesitant about embracing this letter as an example of good business sense.

    On the other hand, I think it’s an excellent example of a funny thing that happened.

  8. 8
    attila says:

    ‘Jake’s workplace recently installed handscanners’

    So recently then, that staff were given a memo dated 1998, from a company that seems to have been run by Schlage for quite some time, after being acquired by Ingersoll-Rand in 1999.

  9. 9
    bro says:

    I suggest that if this thing cannot even detect the mark of the beast then it just isn’t a very good scanner. Quite frankly, when the time comes that we all have to have a machine that does the job right, I don’t want to have to shell out hundreds, or even thousands, of dollars on a better scanner, having invested in this POS in the first place. There was a time in America that every manufacturer stood behind their product 100%. Not any more. Sign of the times, I suppose…
    10-1 you couldn’t fit your head into it even if you wanted to. That’s because the chinese have smaller heads, and they never try anything out on normal people before they flood Walmart with their crap. That’s just another sign of the times, (Rev. 17: 18).

  10. 10
    DaisyDeadhead says:

    I don’t believe it for a minute. Sounds like an equivocation to me! ;)

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  12. 11
    Jake Squid says:

    So recently then, that staff were given a memo dated 1998, from a company that seems to have been run by Schlage for quite some time, after being acquired by Ingersoll-Rand in 1999.

    Yes. We got the machines last month and went live with them last week. New machines, same strategy for identification, newer technology, same memo.

  13. 12
    PG says:

    attila, if you’d like to see the memo in color PDF from a biometrics-selling company, see here. Google “recognition systems mark beast” and you’ll find plenty of people discussing the relationship between biometric recognition systems and the End Times.

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  15. 13
    MisterMephisto says:

    I have to concur with the others here, attila.

    Note that the memo said it was REVISED in 1998. Which means it was the last time they needed to revise a FORM letter.

    Most companies do this so that they can tell which version was sent out and when they last revised it (so they can consider re-revising it if it turns out laws or company needs have changed).

    Why do I know this? The company I work for does it all the time with every piece of “official” paperwork that we send out (legalese or not).

    It’s standard practice and not strange in the least.

  16. 14
    jd says:

    Mandolin – good point. I was thinking of things like employers freaking out when a sihk wants a job but says he has to wear a turban to work. Obviously beliefs that actually impair someone’s ability to do their job or hurt others are a different story.

  17. 15
    Jenny says:

    This is actually a very serious issue for Seventh Day Adventists, a large number of whom live in my hometown of Nashville, TN. They have been talking for many years about credit card scanners, then electronic chips in things, and now GPS trackers as being inroads made by Satan toward the mark of the Beast. Accommodating religious beliefs like this harms no one and I think it is important to respect them.

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  20. 16
    Elf Eye says:

    This sounds like an urban legend. Go to the site that is posting the letter and look at the logo on the ‘original’. Recognition Systems, Inc., is a division of Ingersoll-Rand. RSI does not use that logo. Instead, it uses the Schlage logo. Notice that the letter lacks specifics as to location, date, and author, typical of urban legends. Notice the unprofessional use of bolding and caps. Notice the misspelling of the Book of Revelation as the Book of Revelations. But above all, notice the advice that a user fearful of being branded with the mark of the beast “use the hand scanner with their LEFT hand turned palm up.” Major, major problem. RSI scanners require the user to place his or her hand palm DOWN. Go to this website and check out the series of photos that will show up at the top: http://recognitionsystems.ingersollrand.com/ to verify that this is the case. PG, the link you provided leads to PayPunch. I do not know why PayPunch is posting this memo, other than to document that they are aware that this urban legend in the form of a memo is circulating so that their reps can be prepared for questions. Like the Schlage machines, Paypunch’s scanners require the user to put his or her hand palm down (check the pictures at their site), so the memo does not directly pertain to their operation. Jake Squid, someone in your organization may be circulating this bit of urban folklore, but that does not mean that it came from Ingersoll-Rand, RSI, or Schlage.

  21. 17
    David Hahn says:

    I wish the company that does indeed have the legitimate hand scanning contract with Satan would send out a press release so other companies, like Recognition Systems, Inc don’t have to constantly say “It’s not us”. (Which is actually slightly embarrassing for their sales department in not being able to secure a client with deep pockets like the Devil. )

  22. 18
    Jake Squid says:

    Elf Eye,

    Jake Squid, someone in your organization may be circulating this bit of urban folklore, but that does not mean that it came from Ingersoll-Rand, RSI, or Schlage.

    It’s not an urban legend. I opened the boxes, there was no intermediary.

    If you want a good, previously unheard urban legend, ask me about the cat in the freezer.

    RSI scanners require the user to place his or her hand palm DOWN.

    You’re 100% wrong. RSI scanners require the user to place a hand so that it has the thumb on the left. We have a couple of guys who have right hands too small & mangled to be recognized by the scanner. So I took the advice of the Disclaimer of the Beast and registered them by having them place their left hands palm up. Works like a dream.

  23. 19
    PG says:

    ElfEye,

    Go to the site that is posting the letter and look at the logo on the ‘original’. Recognition Systems, Inc., is a division of Ingersoll-Rand. RSI does not use that logo. Instead, it uses the Schlage logo.

    Yes, that’s often what happens after Company A is bought by Company B; Company A adopts Company B’s logo. If you use the Wayback Machine (archive.org), you’ll see that recogsys.com has gone through many iterations in the past 11 years.

    PG, the link you provided leads to PayPunch. I do not know why PayPunch is posting this memo, other than to document that they are aware that this urban legend in the form of a memo is circulating so that their reps can be prepared for questions.

    No, they link it because they presumably use some of RSI’s technology. If you go to the PDF I linked and look at the metadata (right-click within the doc, then select “document properties”), it will show the author of the document is one Bill Spence. As in Bill Spence, former Vice-President for Marketing, Ingersoll-Rand, Recognition Systems. It is dated 4/20/2000 and was created using Word 9.0 (better known as MS Word 2000).

    I am in favor of skepticism, but you should research a bit before declaring that we’ve all been hoaxed.

  24. 20
    Jenny says:

    NOT an urban legend, for Pete’s sake. For SDAs, this is a real issue.

  25. 21
    Jake Squid says:

    If you go to the PDF I linked and look at the metadata (right-click within the doc, then select “document properties”), it will show the author of the document is one Bill Spence. As in Bill Spence, former Vice-President for Marketing, Ingersoll-Rand, Recognition Systems. It is dated 4/20/2000 and was created using Word 9.0 (better known as MS Word 2000).

    I love that this blog has so many knowledgeable folks and so many people who know how to do various forms of research. I never would have thought of looking at the metadata, so thank you, PG.

  26. 22
    Jack says:

    Sinister is a Latin word meaning “Left”

  27. 23
    bro says:

    Moronic beliefs like this should not be taken seriously. Pandering to people who believe crazy crap only leads to more crazy crap. I would sack the people who refused to use the machine. (ahah! see? That’s just what they said would happen!)

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  29. 24
    RonF says:

    At which point, bro, the employer would be slapped with a lawsuit alleging that they had violated their employees’ First Amendment right to freely practice their religion.

  30. 25
    Myca says:

    At which point, bro, the employer would be slapped with a lawsuit alleging that they had violated their employees’ First Amendment right to freely practice their religion.

    At which point any semi-reasonable judge would laugh that shit right out of court.

    Everyone has a right to practice any religion they choose, sure … but that doesn’t mean that the local hog farm has to employ workers who refuse to touch pigs.

    I understand that this is something that the right has had a lot of trouble understanding, but it’s pretty simple, isn’t it? If your religion makes you unable to perform your duties, get another job.

    —Myca

  31. 26
    Charles S says:

    Myca,

    Bullshit. Being unwilling to use a particular method of signing into and out of work is not refusing to do essential job duties. If someone is unwilling to use a hand scanner because their religion forbids it (or their interpretation of their religion forbids it, same thing), their employer should make reasonable accommodations (having them scan the back of their left hand, if that relieves their concerns, letting them use an alternate method, if the left hand solution did not work for their religious restrictions).

    Do you believe that Orthodox Jews should be fired for refusing to work on the Sabbath?

    Refusing to fill legitimate prescriptions for religious reasons, on the other hand, is refusing to do essential job duties, and should be a firing offense.

  32. 27
    Charles S says:

    Personally, I feel that weird beliefs, religious or not, should be accommodated as much as possible, particularly in work situations. If your co-worker feels she needs to clap her hands 3 times before she starts working, accommodations should be made, whether this is a religious requirement or an obsessive-compulsive disorder.

    Basically, anything that would be covered under ADA if it were caused by a mental disorder should be protected if it is caused by a religious belief instead. Fear of hand scanners false within that range, to my mind.

  33. 28
    TheOtherOne says:

    their employer should make reasonable accommodations (having them scan the back of their left hand, if that relieves their concerns, letting them use an alternate method, if the left hand solution did not work for their religious restrictions).

    There was a Canadian case in 2003 or so, where the employer offered solutions like scanning the back of the left hand. The employees said that unlike a photo, which “blurs” over time (even if digital?), a measurement of the hand is permanent (personally, I’d assume it changes if you gain or lose much weight).
    Despite the fact that the employer had gone to using the scanner so that people couldn’t check their friends in and out of work, the Canadian court said that the employer hadn’t given sufficient considerations to ways of accomodating the employees – like giving them a swipecard and password. No mention of the fact that modifying the equipment would be expensive, or that cards and passwords can be given to friends to log you in and out of work ….

  34. 29
    Sailorman says:

    Jake Squid Writes:
    November 15th, 2008 at 12:22 pm
    If you want a good, previously unheard urban legend, ask me about the cat in the freezer.

    I can’t believe I’m the only person who wants to hear this one…. Spill it! :)

  35. 30
    RonF says:

    At which point any semi-reasonable judge would laugh that shit right out of court.

    You’d like to think so, wouldn’t you? It has been my observation that semi-reasonable judges are in short supply these days.

    I understand that this is something that the right has had a lot of trouble understanding, but it’s pretty simple, isn’t it? If your religion makes you unable to perform your duties, get another job.

    The right has had a problem understanding this? Check out the stories on Moslem checkout people not wanting to touch bacon or hams in grocery stores or Moslem taxi drivers asking people if they have wine or other alcohol in their baggage at the airport and refusing to pick them up if they do. It’s not the right defending them. This is a problem on both sides of the aisle.

  36. 31
    RonF says:

    I had a cat in my freezer for months last winter. It died after the ground froze and I couldn’t bury it. We’d had her for a while and just dumping the body in the trash seemed callous. So I froze her until the ground thawed in April.

    Actually, I think it was around June when my wife said “Get that damn thing out of the freezer NOW!” and I dug a hole out behind the shed. We’ve got a dog and now 4 cats I think back there.

  37. 32
    bro says:

    People have the right to believe anything they want, just not on my time or if I’m going to have to trust them at some point to do anything important. I don’t think I should be forced to put up with people who believe invisible creatures are manipulating every aspect of our daily lives on the clear understanding that the only outcome will be a worldwide conflagration in which we are mostly going to be the losers. I wouldn’t employ these lunatics, either. First Amendment or not, I would like a workforce who can spot the difference between reality and crazy bullshit. (Clearly, I don’t run a political speechwriting business, the White House, a church, the CIA, or my local Property Assessor’s office.)
    I do believe the First Amendment might have been a small joke that has gotten somewhat out of control; sort-of like the Book of Revelation.

  38. 33
    Sailorman says:

    bro,

    This is not my concentration, but I don’t think the first amendment is responsible for any bans against religious based discrimination in hiring practices. That issue is addressed by statute, and is not Constitutionally based. (This may not apply when the government is doing the hiring.)

  39. 34
    Myca says:

    Refusing to fill legitimate prescriptions for religious reasons, on the other hand, is refusing to do essential job duties, and should be a firing offense.

    Sure, Charles, and this is mostly what my reaction was actually to. Hotbutton and all.

    Do you believe that Orthodox Jews should be fired for refusing to work on the Sabbath?

    No, of course not, but I also think that that’s different. I’d say that 99% of the myriad forms of Christianity (which of course, is what we’re talking about) do not officially forbid the use of handscanner technology, thus we’re discussing someone’s loony, paranoid, and personal interpretation.

    Or to put it another way, no, I don’t believe that Orthodox Jews should be fired for refusing to work on the Sabbath … but if you’re an Orthodox Jew, and you’re refusing to work on Tuesdays (at your M-F office job) because you insist that’s the Sabbath? I have a hard time taking that seriously.

    —Myca

  40. 35
    Myca says:

    I had a cat in my freezer for months last winter.

    Yeah, I had two ducks in my freezer for about six months a couple years back for the same reason.

    —Myca

  41. 36
    Jake Squid says:

    Years & years ago, our cat Sarah died during the winter. As those of you who live in places that have winter know, the ground was frozen too hard to be able to dig a whole. So we put her in a sheet cake box in the freezer in the basement. When spring came around and the ground had thawed, my dad went to the basement to get the cat out of the freezer. Well, the sheet cake box was for a large sheet cake and was much larger than the cat. When my dad took the box out of the freezer, it was unbalanced and he juggledropped the box. The cat came sliding out. Remember, this was the freezer in the basement. The basement with a concrete floor. The cat hit the floor and shattered. Fun was had by all and a family story was born.

  42. 37
    Mac says:

    Goodness. Jenny’s SDAs appear to have strayed from the fold a bit. Seventh-day Adventists believe that the “mark of the beast” is Sunday worship (they consider the Jewish Sabbath, Saturday, to be the correct day).

    If they have issues with microchips, it’s probably because of not wanting the government to track their every move.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Number_of_the_Beast#Interpretations

    http://www.sdanet.org/atissue/books/qod/q18.htm

  43. 38
    RonF says:

    O.K., let’s talk about stuff found in a freezer. Back in the 80′s I was a lab tech in a Biochem lab in a medical school (before I switched off to being a grad student). The department was being shaken up by a new department head, and I was given the job of cleaning out the freezer.

    This was a walk-in freezer. Bio labs have such things because we work with some things that degrade rapidly at room temperature. Typically you’ll walk in and on the shelves are chunks of tissue or materials to extract enzymes, etc. from, bottles and vials of solutions, and row upon row of glass dessicators to store enzymes and other biochemicals in that will degrade to meaningless puddles of goo if they are not kept a) dry, b) as cold as possible, and possibly c) away from oxygen. So I’m cleaning all these out, finding stuff that’s been left in there for years and years (including a gram of chemically pure mescaline), and I grab something about the size of a football that’s wrapped up in 3 baggies. The frost kept me from seeing what it was, so I got it out and pried bag after bag off, opened up the last bag, and cleaned off the frost from … a face?!

    I believe I screamed.

    Turns out someone had, back in the long ago, secured a fetus (or stillborn child, hard to say) for experimental purposes and then hadn’t used it. Or had, but the amount of tissue required was so small as to not be immediately apparent. They probably didn’t want to go through the protocol for disposing of the remains, or left unexpectedly, or whatever. Nobody else was tracking what was in there – there would be a dozen investigators’ stuff in there, nobody knows what you have in there. It was forgotton, until it was found years later.

    The Chicago cops showed up and picked up the body. I didn’t talk to them, the department head did. Digging up the records was his problem, not mine, and I’m not sure that the proper records actually existed.

  44. 39
    RonF says:

    Shattered? Must have been a real cold freezer. When I dropped Jingles in the garage she just kind of went “thud”.

    I also found a dead frozen cat IN the garage during the winter – not one of ours. Apparently while I had the door to the outside open it ducked in from outside and found a spot to hole up in. Whereupon I shut the door and went into the house from the inside door. Either it died without coming out or I never heard it meow or scratch at the door. I went out in February to put away (finally) all the Christmas stuff, moved a box, and, hey – what’s this grey muff? NO, DANG, IT’S A DEAD CAT. Poor thing. It was given a decent burial.

  45. 40
    Mandolin says:

    Yeah, I had two ducks in my freezer for about six months a couple years back for the same reason.

    We have some abalone guts in our freezer at the moment. The diver who caught it was over at our house for a faux-thanksgiving holiday, and he dissected it for me before cooking and told me about its physiology. It was cool.

    Also,btw, we’ve been linked by pharyngula, which tends to have a different vocabulary for discourse about religion than feminist sites do. I’m a pharyngula reader; I agree with PZ a good deal of the time; I’m not saying their way of talking about religion is wrong. But readers who are used to feminist discourse on religion may want to think of it as a context/paradigm difference.

  46. 41
    Jenny says:

    Hey, I’ve had a few interfaith prayer breakfasts with these guys, and they are very strange and very sincere.

    I think it is akin to Jehovah’s Witnesses refusing blood transfusions even when it may mean the death of their children, or that recent couple in NY (I think) whose son was completely brain dead, but who refused to take him off of life support b/c the criterion for death in their Orthodox Jewish tradition is a non-beating heart, and the son’s heart was still beating, albeit by machinery. (He just died a day or two ago, eliminating a budding controversy over whether a person who is essentially dead ought to continue to take up a bed and other resources that a living person could use.) Or Muslims or Mormoms marrying daughters off at age 14.

    http://home.earthlink.net/~gklentprs/warning.html (Mark of the Beast)
    http://www.dallasnewlifesda.org/sealofgod.php (ditto)

    http://www.watchtower.org/e/hb/index.htm?article=article_05.htm (blood transfusion)

    http://abcnews.go.com/TheLaw/CancerPreventionAndTreatment/Story?id=6237642&page=1 (son on life support)

    http://www.newsweek.com/id/103620 (underage marriage)
    http://www.rickross.com/reference/polygamy/polygamy147.html (ditto)

    There are so many interesting intersections between secular and religious law.

    NOT that getting a computer chip is the law. YET!! (Muahahahahah!)

  47. 42
    PG says:

    I think the Bush Administration has reached a clear “we no longer have to give the slightest damn what the public thinks” point:

    As an example of the policies to which they object, Bush administration officials cited a Connecticut law that generally requires hospitals to provide rape victims with timely access to and information about emergency contraception.

    THAT’S their example of an objectionable policy? Has every competent PR person left the Bush Admin already? Why would any political actor of any sense whatsoever cite a law that assists rape survivors as an example of a bad law? Surely there’s some poor, oppressed Catholic nurse who lost her job because she refused to participate in an abortion or something instead.

  48. 43
    Myca says:

    THAT’S their example of an objectionable policy? Has every competent PR person left the Bush Admin already?

    It’s interesting when they say what they really believe, isn’t it?

    —Myca

  49. 44
    TheOtherOne says:

    Goodness. Jenny’s SDAs appear to have strayed from the fold a bit. Seventh-day Adventists believe that the “mark of the beast” is Sunday worship (they consider the Jewish Sabbath, Saturday, to be the correct day).

    I never heard that while I attended the SDA church. Maybe it’s shifted over time, but Sunday worship was simply considered worshipping on the wrong day. (The argument is that the Catholic Church shifted it, and the Bible says to worship on the 7th day. And the SDA church has some um, interesting, ideas about the Catholic Church.) But I never heard it connected to the mark of the beast.

    We did hear a lot about the mark of the beast, tho; it was expected to be a barcode on your hand or forehead, or a chip implanted into your hand. The paranoia is that it will tie into monetary and identification systems – that you won’t be able to buy anything, pay your rent, get into any building where you’d have to show ID, etc., without letting them mark you. Getting marked, of course, is a bad thing, and those who stand up for their religion will be persecuted for it. It ties into the beginning of the end times.

    Which, frankly, is why it always puzzles me that they’re so willing to go to court and fight over it. If G-d says it’s going to happen, do you really think there’s any point in taking it to the Supreme Court? And if you think you’ll accomplish real, lasting good by fighting it in the courts, then do you really believe what you’ve been preaching?

  50. 45
    RonF says:

    So what did people think was the MOTB before bar codes and implantable microchips were invented?

  51. 46
    Jenny says:

    The Mark of the Beast is related to the Mark of Cain, which some have claimed is the number 666, a Hebrew letter, a black dot on the forehead, a scar or a brand, etc. It has also been claimed that black or dark skin is the mark of Cain.

    Black or dark skin has also been connected with Ham, the middle son of Noah, and various groups claim that Ham was Cain’s direct descendant, and that punishment by God for the deeds of their ancestors is/was the justification for separation and degradation of humans with darker skin.

    Here is a link making the connection http://www.ridingthebeast.com/articles/666-physical-mark/ b/t the two marks.

  52. 47
    RonF says:

    Heck, the MOTB could be your drivers’ license. Or your credit cards. Consider what you cannot do without one or the other. I’m paid by direct deposit; my company WON’T issue paychecks, you HAVE to tell them what bank your account is in. I can’t pay cash for anything unless I use my ATM card, or go to the bank personally and show ID.

  53. 48
    TheOtherOne says:

    Along the lines of the drivers license as the MOTB, at least some of the people opposed to the RealID/National identity card seem to oppose it on MOTB grounds. . . .

  54. 49
    bro says:

    Jenny said “The Mark of the Beast is related to the Mark of Cain”

    No, it isn’t

    “which some have claimed is the number 666″

    Who?

    “a Hebrew letter”

    nah…

    “a black dot on the forehead”

    Any reason for that?

    “a scar or a brand, etc. ”

    ‘etc.’ probably covers whatever it might not be, I guess

    “It has also been claimed that black or dark skin is the mark of Cain. ”

    oh really? huh, well, sticking your head in a scanner might well turn you into a darkie, I suppose. Is that the connection you’re making here? I’m lost.

    “Black or dark skin has also been connected with Ham”

    Nope, Ham’s pink.

    “the middle son of Noah, and various groups claim that Ham was Cain’s direct descendant, and that punishment by God for the deeds of their ancestors is/was the justification for separation and degradation of humans with darker skin.”

    Just as well no actual Biblical evidence for outright racism is required.

    “Here is a link making the connection ”

    Guess those nutters could F.Off, too

  55. 50
    Sailorman says:

    bro…. “darkie”? Are you freakin’ serious?

  56. 51
    bro says:

    “Sailorman Writes:

    bro…. “darkie”? Are you freakin’ serious?”

    No, actually. Thought you might have spotted that….
    That was my dad’s pet name for me, though. I had one for him, too.

  57. 52
    Jenny says:

    Bro = Brit taker-out-of-the-piss

  58. 53
    bro says:

    Jenny, taking out of the piss is a different thing altogether. Eeewww.

  59. 54
    Jenny says:

    That’s pisstakers for ya, always gots to have the last word . . . ;-)

  60. 55
    mik says:

    Jenny, the ‘number of the beast’ is 616, it was noticed by some monk when the bible was being translated into english and he thought ‘that can’t be right’ and wrote 666 instead. Always amuses me to hear christians coming out with 666, among other things.

  61. 56
    Jenny says:

    Dude, I don’t care, I’m just pointing out what has been SAID, not what is the truth, as if there were such things anyway.

  62. 57
    Paul GREGERSEN says:

    How could christians fall for this sham when Revelation 15:2 states that the mark of the beast is something we must personally overcome, and then gain victory over through the blood of the lamb. This description and wording seem to depict mans fallen nature in which John is speaking of, and not a computer implant in which many people speculate. Did Christ die for our sins, or did he die for computer implants? Rediculous theology that millions of christians have fallen both line ansd sinker.
    Here is the rational truth about this subject coming directly from the

    Bible.

    The mark originated with Cain, in the old testiment. Cain who killed his brother Abel and sought to cover his terrible sin by hiding his crime. God asked, where is thy brother? Cain said, I know not, am I my brothers keeper? Cain was then marked after becoming the first example of this Satanic beastly example God detests.

    God then cursed the works of Cains hands when the ground he tilled no longer brought forth her streangth. A bad economy followed. Thus we identify this mark by Gods curse upon Cains right handed works. Why? Cain had yielded himself to Satans power.

    It was Satan who was symbolized in the Bible as the cursed beast (the Serpent) in the garden of Eden.

    A type of snake bight or mark identifying the evil nature Satan had injected into mans fallen nature was depicted.

    Later we learn in the new testiment that these kind of people who follow Cains nature are also called beasts. “Jude 1.

    An even clearer example is once again exemplified when Joseph’s eleven brothers sought to kill Joseph and sell him as a slave into Egypt. The brothers hid this terrible sin from Jacob their father by killing a wild beast and placing this animals blood upon Joseph’s coat of many colors, using an actual beasts bloodstain. The brothers then lied to Jacob, and gave Jacob Joseph’s famous coat with the marked bloodstain, this evidence convinced Jacob that his birthright son was truly dead. The secret plan Jacob knew not of, was that the mark upon Joseph’s coat was really the “mark of the beast” and not from Josephs torn body .

    The mark of the beast becomes a deception which hides and removes Gods will, and replaces Gods will with Satans deception and plan. It was Gods will that Joseph become the birthright son. Suddenly Joseph is removed from sight by a hidden cover up, by a mark from a beast, or hidden lie.

    The brothers sold Joseph to the Egyptians for money. Thus buying and selling the beastly mark for gain. The interpretation of an anti christ is to remove Christs will, and then replace it with the mark of the beast, or Satans power.

    Selling out God through a lie. When Nebuchadnezzar forced the world to worship his golden God in Babylon, he used the power of the state to replace the true authority of God with another manmade lie.

    Nebuchadnezzar also used Gold or money to build his God, and sell out the worship of the true God.. Again replacing Christs will on earth with Satans beastly mark.

    After imposing this sin of pride God curses Nebuchadnezzar with the nature of the beast. Read Daniel chapter four. Nebuchadnezzar was marked in a similar way to Cain, being removed from men, becoming insane like a wild beast.

    He later repented after 7 years of going through a terrible withdrawl process from an evil addiction of being power hungry with pride. The 666 number in scripture identifies Nebuchadnezzars statue in time with its exact size. The statue was gold, which represents Nebuchadnezzar himself as representing the gold by Daniel. “Daniel 2.” King Nebuchadnezzar was literally the 600 BC man. The entire world represents his power given to this one single man in 600 BC. His giant golden image was carefully measured exactly 60 cubits high and 6 cubits wide.”Daniel 3:1″. This event marked Babylonian attempt to replace God with six hundred and three score and six. The 600 BC man.
    “Dan3-

    1″.

    In otherwords you can find the answer to the worlds greatest mystery right inside your very own Bible.

    After Nebuchadnezzar over come and gained victory over this beastly nature, God freed the the beast of Babylon from the evil mark. Evil men today are seeking to remove God given American freedoms by replacing “one nation under God” with a beastly state supported socialism, in order to make slaves of free Americans. The same spirit of Babylon today has returned , it once again is seeking to remove our God, and replace him with a golden money God of the state.

    They are again setting up a God of gold made from the banking system. Why? To force us to worship this golden God of state or be fired, or removed and destroyed through political correctness. No man Nor women in America can buy or sell, or have a job unless he or she is contributing to this evil BABYLON, GROWING RAPIDLY WITHIN OUR OWN COUNTRY. LOOK AT THE TAXATION AND THE BAILOUTS NOW GOING ON BECAUSE OF FREDDY AND FANNY. No one is calling to place Kriss Dodd nor Barney Frank in jail for helping to cause this world banking crisis.. Instead, they and their friends have all been placed in charge of this bail out money…Every man, every women, and every child born today, including the unborn, must now pay money for an out of control national debt placing America forever on the hook. Untold billions now go directly into the social democrats hands to transform America, and change it into one nation under a liberal god. The anti christ nobody is yet looking for.
    Another modern god of gold, like unto the 666 god in 600 BC is now being constructed for Americans to sacrifice for and be forced to worship. All small and great , rich and poor, must now sacrifice for its construction for the creation of change… Remember Obama declaring that all Americans must sacrifice for his change? We are now changing America into a modern beast of Babylon, by the use of our own right hand works, and our own money being robbed. This has all been made possible through the lies planted within our own foreheads, or decieved minds.

    What kind of evil beast got into half of America’s foreheads, or intellects, and caused them to vote for their own slavery? Millions of votes were cast against a free America? It was an evil beast which decieved their minds through lies coming from the politically correct media. The mark of evil power came from these votes being directed through the peoples right hands, and from their foreheads.

    Now all of us are forever on the hook unless we can awaken our fellow christians to this lie!
    Please help get this new biblical understanding to as many christians as possible. Why? They have also been decieved by thousands of money grabbing preachers who have downloaded the wrong understanding of the mark of the beast! These decieved christians are still waiting for a computer chip implant, when the mark is already upon them. Watch the online video from start to finish, and understand the basis behind Babylons mark.today.. Click
    www. eternaltruth. net

  63. 58
    Ethan N. says:

    Religious nuts?
    y2k.

    Nuff said.

  64. 59
    paul gregersen says:

    What is taken out of context in Bible teaching today?
    Body: How do so many Christian’s fall for this rapture and mark of the beast theory?

    We have learned that several million Christians failed to vote in this last election. I have also learned that the end times doomsday theology has a great influence into the mindset of many Christians today. A christian church having nearly a million members is claiming that December 14th will be the beginning of the tribulation period, and the trump will sound. I tried hard to influence a such people to vote this year! Why would they not want to vote? It was a contradiction to their religious convictions when according to them, America has already been judged by God. Why not vote?
    What was their hang up? Why vote if Christian’s are caught up in a rapture to heaven, and when the anti Christ will dominate the world anyway according to prophecy? The most frightening thing coming is the popular 2012 date set for the rapture spreading anticipation like wild fire! It may draw many more Christians into a doomsday mentality, potentially hurting the next election much more so.

    The conservative balance of power may be determined by such critical voters who may yet determine America’s future. We need all christians to stay loyal to America, not the Rapture! What is wrong with this anti-christ beast theory? Look at Waco Texas, and David Koresh, and Jim Jones, and others. What happens when normal human beings are drawn into abnormal behavior by strong religious convictions coming from a doomsday theology! This hidden enemy exists within our conservative center, and it may already be doing far more harm than the liberal media has done to conservative causes.

    Revelation 15:2 clearly states that the mark of the beast is something Christians must personally overcome to gain the victory through the blood of the lamb? This description and obvious wording in the Bible seem to identify mans fallen nature, not some computer implant which many wrongly speculate. Did Christ die for our sins, or did he die for computer implants? Is this not a ridiculous theology which millions of Christians have fallen for?.Lets list some rational truth’s concerning this subject taken directly from the Bible.

    The mark originated with Cain, in the Old Testament. Cain killed his brother Abel and sought to cover his sin by hiding his murderous crime. God asked Cain,where is thy brother? Cain said, I know not, am I my brothers keeper? Cain was marked after becoming the the example of satanic behavior God detests.

    God then cursed the works of Cain’s hand’s, the ground he tilled no longer brought forth her strength. In other word’s, a bad economy then followed the mark. Can we not identify this mark as Gods curse upon Cain’s right handed works? Why? Cain had yielded himself to Satan’s power by failing to bring forth good fruits, breaking Gods commandments.

    It was Satan who was symbolized in the Bible as being the cursed beast (the Serpent) in the Garden of Eden. A type of snake bite, a beastly mark identifying the sin nature which Satan injected into mans heart, was being depicted as the mark of sin.

    Later we learn in the New Testament that people who follow Cain like nature are also called beasts. “Jude 1.

    The Bible gives us an even clearer example of this mark, when Joseph’s brothers sought to kill Joseph and sell him as a slave into Egypt. The brothers hid this sin from Jacob, their father. How? By killing a wild beast and placing an animal’s blood upon Joseph’s coat of many colors. How? By using an actual beasts bloodstain as if it belong to Joseph.. The brothers then lied to Jacob, by showing Jacob Joseph’s coat with a marked bloodstain. They told Jacob that Joseph was killed by a wild beast. This false evidence convinced Jacob that his only birthright son was dead. This was the secret plan Jacob did not know. It was a mark upon Joseph’s coat which was actually “the mark of the beast” and not coming from Josephs torn body .

    The mark of the beast becomes a deception which hides and removes Gods will by replacing it with Satan’s deception and plan. It was Gods will that Joseph become the birthright son. Suddenly, Joseph is removed from sight by the hidden cover up, The mark of a wild beast literally hid the lie, and removed true authority.

    The brothers had sold Joseph to the Egyptians for money. Thus, buying and selling the beastly mark through deception for worldly gain. The interpretation of an anti Christ is to remove Christ’s will, and then replace it with the mark of the beast, or Satan’s power. God was being sold out through the lie, coming from a secret combination.

    When Nebuchadnezzar forced the world to worship his golden God in Babylon, he used the power of the state to replace Gods true authority by using a calculated and manufactured lie.

    King Nebuchadnezzar also used Gold (money) to build his God, selling out the value of worshiping the true God. Again, replacing Christ’s will with Satan’s deceptive mark. Babylon today represents any government or spiritual system which rewards selfishness by removing the true God.

    After Nebuchadnezzar imposed his sin of pride using his political authority, God cursed Nebuchadnezzar by transforming him into the nature of a wild beast. (Read Daniel chapter four.) Nebuchadnezzar was marked like unto Cain, removed from men, acting inhuman like a wild beast.

    In other word’s, Babylon is a state of mind which destroys our humanity!

    Nebuchadnezzar finally repented after going through a terrible withdrawal process for 7 years, removing him from his evil addiction for power. The 666 number in scripture clearly identifies Nebuchadnezzar’s golden statue by its dimensions and exact size. The statue was gold, which represents Nebuchadnezzar himself who became the image of the golden statue, as recorded by Daniel. “Daniel 2.” King Nebuchadnezzar was literally the 600 BC man.

    The entire ancient world represented his power given to one single man marking 600 B. C. in history.

    His giant golden image was carefully measured and recorded by Daniel as being 60 cubits high and 6 cubits wide. “Daniel 3:1″. This biblical event marked the Babylonian attempt to replace God with a six hundred and three score, and six man. The 600 BC man was Nebuchadnezzar himself, being enlarged into a huge statue almost a hundred feet tall. Babylon is about a little man trying to become a great big man using earthly political means.

    The world did not have the modern media in Nebuchadnezzar’s day to make him self larger than life. This huge golden image represents a man seeking to reach notoriety and Godly status by becoming larger, more visible to the world. This explains why John would instructs believers to count the number of the beast, to find the hidden man.

    Is the true measure of a man not measured by his inflated image to be seen by men, revealing his beastly pride? Or, is that not the measure of the beastly side which hides his true image!
    The true measure of the man is being obscured from view Nebuchadnezzar’s false image was 666. “Daniel: 3-1″.

    The true man was hidden from our view by sin until he became humble. “Daniel 4″ “Revelation 13:18.” In other words, you can find the answer to the world’s greatest Bible mystery 666, directly recorded inside your very own family Bible. The search is now over…
    God actually frees the beast of Babylon from his evil mark after Nebuchadnezzar repents. Evil men today are seeking to remove our God given freedoms by replacing “one nation under God” with state supported socialism. why? In order to make slaves of free Americans. It is not the same spirit of Babylon returning to us again today. Fallen man is still seeking to make his worldly image large in order to remove God, replacing God with a god of gold, purchased with our own money by state decree. The new god becomes mans exalted authority being granted through the state and not God.. Remember Moses and the golden calf image represented a beast God in Moses day! The golden beast was created by collecting the people’s own wealth.

    Once again, they are setting up another God of gold using our money to pay for it. Why? Is it not to going to force Americans to worship this golden God of the state? Or become fired, exiled, or destroyed through the power of political correctness? No man or women will be able to buy nor sell, or hold a job, unless they contribute to this god of Babylon being forced through higher taxation, personal loyalty and sacrifice. We now witness a state, growing within a state, within our nation.

    Look at the bailouts and the national debt being the taken from us to create Babylon’s God. No one is calling for legal hearings to place Kriss Dodd and Barney Frank in prison after they created this world economic crisis. Instead, They with their friends have been placed in charge of this bail out money and our economy…Every man, every women, and every child born today, including the unborn, must pay for an out of control national debt bringing America into a modern Babylonian bondage. Untold billions of our money must transfer directly into these social democrats hands transforming America into a predatory beast. The secret plan must hide their goal to change America into a new nation under their god. This god of money now becomes the new savior of America through a government bail out as our salvation. This is the true anti Christ that no one yet is looking for already happening directly in front of us..
    It is another god of gold, like unto the 666 god in 600 BC! This god is now being constructed for the salvation of Americans who are being forced to worship its image, and make huge sacrifices unto it.

    “All small and great, rich and poor,” must sacrifice for the god of this new change… Remember Obama, declaring that all Americans must sacrifice for his image for change? The change is a lie, it is a beast which seeks to make us into its slave.! We are now changing America into the modern beast of Babylon, being robbed of our own right hand works, our own money as its sacrifice. This has been made possible through calculated lies planted within our own foreheads or our deceived minds.

    What kind of evil beast has entered into over half of America’s foreheads, or intellects, causing them to vote for the institution of their own slavery? Millions of votes were cast against a free America? It was surely an evil beast which deceived their minds by calculated lies orchestrated from the politically correct media.

    The mark of America’s power comes directly from which votes are being marked on ballets, the peoples right handed works represent their spiritual mindset going on inside their thoughts or in their foreheads. A mark represents a goal, or end destination like a map. There are two marks from the Bibles beginning, the tree of life, and the tree of good and evil in the Garden of Eden. God’s true followers were marked with Gods name in their foreheads, and right hands, according to John. Revelation 22:4. Was Jesus ever going to use computer implants to mark his followers? The mark of God, and the mark of Satan clearly represent a spiritual identification being witnessed through the person’s spiritual mindset, and also by our outward behavior manifesting through our right handed works. Who do we serve? Babylon represents Satan’s government of slavery, and Zion represents Christ’s free form of government.

    Which of the mindsets are we being marked into, becomes the final question?
    We must awaken Christians to this lie about computer implants being spread by Left behind books. Why? These popular books focus Christians on doomsday instead of helping God unite his servants to labor the final harvest. We can now understand why the harvest is great, but the workers are few!There is a spiritual distraction going on about a the rapture. There is a reason Christ never wanted us to know the day, nor the hour of his coming. Look at Waco Texas and David Koresh? Look at our last two elections when 4 to 5 million Christians stayed home. Look at the bad fruits coming from the teachings being spread from the most popular Christian book sold today called “Left behind! ” These teachings help Satan by neutralizing Christian’s spiritual resolve! This self inflicted distraction is causing more damage than anything the liberal media has yet accomplished.
    I need your help to challenge this doomsday theology before it becomes a bigger monster in 2012. In the next four years this anticipation about the end of the world may destroy our conservative and Christian unity. People blindly follow an out of context interpretation not coming from God nor the Bible.

    Please help us get a new biblical understanding to as many Christians as possible. Why? Millions have become deceived by thousands of money grabbing preachers who have downloaded the wrong understanding of the mark of the beast into their foreheads! These deceived Christians are still waiting for a computer chip implant to bring in the rapture. This is happening when the mark of slavery is already coming upon them.

    It is always important to provide another alternative view for people in order to challenge something like this, rather than let it just run wild. We need every christian to vote in future elections, and not allow such apocolyptic distractions to dominate their hearts in 2012. Watch the online video from start to finish, and understand the basis behind Babylon’s mark for today.. Click
    http://www.eternaltruth.net

  65. 61
    Robert says:

    Your tl;drian heresies won’t fool THIS Christian, Jeff.