Someday, All Policy Debate Will Be Conducted In Geek

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49 Responses to Someday, All Policy Debate Will Be Conducted In Geek

  1. 1
    Hector_St_Clare says:

    I love this slogan.

  2. 2
    mythago says:

    Why? It just makes the holder look foolish, both for the reasons in the inset, and because one can easily counter with “If Merope Riddle had an abortion, there would be no Voldemort”.

  3. 3
    sparrow says:

    I have a few comments via various Tumblrs that reposted the original image.

    It’s true, Neville might have stopped Voldemort had Lily Potter aborted. If your primary concern is discouraging women like Lily Potter from having abortions – because you think they ought to have kids, because they’re white and pretty and clever and nice and married – you’re doing something really gross and you should stop. Lily had no moral obligation to have Harry, even though she was a fantastic person with a charming husband. Alice Longbottom, who was by all accounts a similar kind of person, had no obligation to provide humanity with Neville, either.

    If Merope Gaunt had been less thoroughly indoctrinated by a white supremacist and patriarchal culture, if she had not become Merope Riddle, if she had been able to access contraception, if she had an abortion, if she had been supported post-birth more effectively, if the Wizarding world had anything like social services, it is probable that Tom Marvolo Riddle might not have grown up in an orphanage, and he might not have become Lord Voldemort.

    Merope – despite her poverty and her nasty politics and her questionable mental health – had no moral obligation to have Tom, and no obligation not to have Tom. I am really not thrilled with people who go “Merope shouldn’t have had a child, because people like her produce children who are criminal and violent, like Voldemort.”

  4. 4
    Robert says:

    “this slogan” = the title of the post, not the lady’s sign.

    I stopped reading the HP books after the first or second one because yawn. So Neville Longbottom would have stopped Voldemort if there had been no Harry Potter? So in other words, fifty kajillion trees were murdered for nothing?

  5. 5
    Harlequin says:

    [spoilers below!]

    Robert, there was a prophecy around the time of Harry’s birth that fit both Harry and Neville. Voldemort thought it applied to Harry and his actions made Harry the focus of the plot. Once that choice was made, though, Neville could no longer fill Harry’s role…but if Harry had never existed, Voldemort would have tried to act against Neville instead, and he would have been the focus of the plot.

  6. 6
    Ruchama says:

    Spoilers:

    There was a prophesy about a baby who would grow up to destroy Voldemort. The prophesy was kind of vague, and could have referred to either baby Harry or baby Neville. Voldemort somehow decided that it must be Harry that the prophesy was talking about, and so tried to kill him. Killing him didn’t work, but Voldemort’s choice of Harry rather than Neville was what made Harry “the Chosen One” and thus made the prophesy come true — after that, Harry was the only one could could kill Voldemort. If Voldemort had chosen Neville instead, then the story would have played out in more or less the same way, with Harry and Neville switching roles. Except, of course, they’re different characters, so they would have done things differently, but ultimately, should have ended up at the same conclusion.

  7. 7
    delurking says:

    Not to mention this woman and her sign are promoting a typical and false view of how evil gets stopped.

    I mean, it’s adorable, and it makes a nice plot, but it’s not actually how the world works. One good man with a gun didn’t stop Hitler, and no one man, not even MLK, got the Civil Rights Act passed here in America, and I like Nelson Mandela as much as anyone but it wasn’t him on his own against Apartheid.

    By which I mean to say the Great Man view of history is a serious scam (something maybe Rowling was getting at with the Neville bit?). Everything that is worth doing is done by collective action.

  8. 8
    Robert says:

    Thank you for the information. Now I am sad, because I find the original post quite amusing, but your fill-in appears to actually validate the earnest sign-holder’s point of view. If Voldemort had the choice of who the prophecy applied to, then he could have said “aha! it applies to the aborted child of the Potters, who’s already dead! I’m unstoppable bwa ha ah ha ha ha ha ha ah!”

    (I assume that Voldemort is the type to say bwa ha ha etc.)

    This is why I hate Harry Potter fandom. Now the limited cycles of my brain are thinking about the logical inconsistencies of J.K. Rowling’s teen wizardtopia instead of processing something useful like picking feats and spells for my 13th Age character’s next level.

  9. 9
    Ampersand says:

    If Voldemort had the choice of who the prophecy applied to, then he could have said “aha! it applies to the aborted child of the Potters, who’s already dead!

    Heh. No, Voldemort didn’t know that he was making a choice – or even that there was a choice to be made – at the time. IIRC, no one even put together how it worked until years later.

  10. 10
    Ruchama says:

    Yeah, the spell that Voldemort used to try to kill Harry as a baby was what made a connection between Voldemort and Harry, and thus made Harry be able to kill Voldemort 17 years later. If Voldemort has been aware of the full details of the prophesy, and Harry hadn’t existed, then he would have tried to kill baby Neville in the same way, and set the same chain of events into motion. (Presumably, Voldemort found out about the prophesy (but not all the details of it) and started thinking, “What baby could this refer to?” and stopped thinking about it once he’d figured out one baby that it could be. He didn’t consider that there might be a few of his enemies who’d had babies in that time period. And I don’t think he ever realized that — he never really seemed to pay much attention to Neville at all.)

  11. 11
    Lauren says:

    dlurking- regarding the “great man” view of history: Harry Potter may be the one who kills Voldemort in the end, but it wouldn’t have been possible without the Horcruxes being destroyed first- and as far as I remember, Harry only destroyed the diary himself. Not to mention how often he would have been toast without Hermione.

    Also, regarding the prophecy, I always thought it was a play on the oedipus- saga insofar as only the fact that Voldemort heard part of the prophecy and wanted to kill Harry to keep it from coming true caused the prophcy to actually be fullfilled- had he not heard it, he would have had no interest in murdering the baby, Lily wouldn’t have sacrificd herself to save Harry, there would have been no temporary defeat , no connection etc. etc.

  12. 12
    Jeremy Redlien says:

    Robert, if only one of them had been born, then only one of them would have had the power to defeat them, thus Voldermort would have had no choice in the matter. It also didn’t help him very much that he only found out about part of the prophecy, which one reason how the prophecy came to be self fulfilling. It’s hard to talk more about it without getting into some really spoileriffic territory.

    On another note, I’m not sure the abortion angle is the best tact to take because in order for Harry Potter to obtain the power to defeat Voldermort, his mother literally had to die for him (thereby granting him a really powerful protection spell thing) which means you have to pretty much endorse “abortion should be illegal *even* if the mother’s life is in severe danger” position in order for this sign to make total sense.

    I am however curious about what happens if we apply this thinking to other chosen ones:
    Neo: (spoilers) Turns out he was created by the Matrix anyways and given that he had no in universe mother nor do we see much about the birthing process of those created by the machines, this gets weird anyways to think about…

    Buffy Summers: If Joyce had an abortion, presumably, one of the other potentials would have stepped up to the plate. No biggie.

    Star Wars: If Anikin Skywalker had been aborted, then there would have been no Darth Vader to hunt down the Jedi, etc. Part of me is curious as to what would happen if Palpatine didn’t have his super helpful force strong ally, but Palpatine (if Palpatine was indeed his father as has been suggested) then he probably would have just picked another random woman to be the chosen one’s mother. We would then have the same plot, with a slightly different character… Heck, for all we know, another woman did in fact have an abortion thus leading Palpitine to his final choice. Now if we consider Luke to be “The Choosen One” then Padme having an abortion, like say before she even told Anikin she was pregnant, well that would have meant that Anakin wouldn’t have to worry about her dying in childbirth, making his eventual turn to the darkside that much less likely to have occurred in the first place.

    Angel: Given that he’s not the only vampire with a soul, the complicated-named-prophecy-thing-I-am-too-lazy-to-look-up would go on to whatever vamp did have a soul, although we would have to assume, that Spike would never been sired by Dru, without Angulus to sire Dru, which leaves us with no known vampire-with-souls candidates in the Buffyverse. But then there is the really complicated part of the prophecy where the vampire with a soul also gets to be the one who plays a part in bringing about the apocalypse anyways so not having any vamps with souls would actually a good thing… right?

    The X-Files: If Scully had aborted William… we would have been spared some of the worst episodes of seasons 8 and 9… So pro-lifers really don’t want to use this one.

    Lord of the Rings: Bilbo leaves the ring to his loyal gardner Samwise Gamgee, who gets to destroy the ring himself, thereby getting all the credit, rather than the pampered, bourgeoisie Frodo. Plus this way Samwise only has to drag the ring up Mount Doom, not Frodo + Ring. Samwise is definitely going to be pro-choice or at least busy inventing a time machine to ensure that Frodo’s parents never get together.
    -Jeremy

  13. 13
    closetpuritan says:

    Bilbo leaves the ring to his loyal gardner Samwise Gamgee, who gets to destroy the ring himself, thereby getting all the credit, rather than the pampered, bourgeoisie Frodo. Plus this way Samwise only has to drag the ring up Mount Doom, not Frodo + Ring.

    This is great.

  14. 14
    Doug S. says:

    This is why I hate Harry Potter fandom. Now the limited cycles of my brain are thinking about the logical inconsistencies of J.K. Rowling’s teen wizardtopia instead of processing something useful like picking feats and spells for my 13th Age character’s next level.

    Let someone else do the nitpicking for you – go read Harry Potter and the Methods of Rationality. It’s worth your time. ;)

  15. 15
    Hugh says:

    “By which I mean to say the Great Man view of history is a serious scam (something maybe Rowling was getting at with the Neville bit?).”

    If it’s intended as a subversion of the Great Man view, it’s an astoundingly weak one.

  16. 16
    Ampersand says:

    Particularly since so much of the REST of Harry Potter is unavoidably “Great Man” in its views of how history happens. Tom Riddle and Dumbledore are both depicted as virtually unique talents of their generation, and that was crucial for the impact they were able to have on world (or wizard-world) events.

    Which is fine with me – epic fantasy fiction is just like that (although I much prefer “great man” narratives that include Great Women as well). I’d be happy to read an epic fantasy that wasn’t “great man” in its approach, but I don’t mind that so much of the genre is unrealistic in this way.

  17. 17
    RonF says:

    I love literature, but you guys are taking Harry Potter WAAAAAYYYY too seriously.

  18. 18
    Ruchama says:

    No such thing as taking Harry Potter too seriously.

  19. 19
    Hugh says:

    Precisely Amp. It’s why I tend to stay away from the genre, but it saddens me that the convention of ‘Great Man-ism’ is so strong that even a peripheral subversion like the Neville thing is seen as a bold blow.

  20. 20
    mythago says:

    I don’t know where you guys are getting the Great Man thing. Harry isn’t particularly Great at wizarding. He’s good at Quidditch, but that turns out to be more of an uncomfortable tie to his father (who we later see as a spoiled jock picking on the poor kid). Neville is scaredycat who turns out to have had very good reasons for being that way – to the shame of people who made fun of him – and who grows into a hero himself; his story arc doesn’t depend on Harry.

  21. 21
    Dianne says:

    If Lily had had an abortion she would have had time and brain space to figure out the horocrux thing and kick Voldemort’s butt all the way to hell before the events in the books happened, saving countless lives and trouble.

  22. 22
    Hypnogaja says:

    I’m still pissy that the house elf / slavery aspect was handwaved away.

  23. 23
    closetpuritan says:

    I’ve had Harry Potter and the Methods of Rationality bookmarked/on my to-read list for at least a couple years now. I forget who else recommended it; maybe someone on Shapely Prose.

  24. 24
    closetpuritan says:

    RonF, no one likes a party pooper.

  25. 25
    Hugh says:

    Mythago, it’s a story about someone who is fated to save the world. The fact that he’s not an especially great wizard just makes it even more of this trope.

  26. 26
    Ruchama says:

    As for him not being a particularly good wizard, he’s not that good at Potions and only OK at some of the other classes, but he’s good at Defense Against the Dark Arts. He’s able to do a lot of stuff with that that impresses even adults, and he teaches the other kids a lot of it. And Hermione comments once that, the one year that they had a real teacher for that class, Harry got higher marks than she did.

  27. 27
    mythago says:

    Hugh, I guess if by the Great Man trope you mean “any story that assumes the actions of a protagonist may have an impact on events”, well, okay, but then I think you’re stretching the trope well beyond usefulness.

    Ruchama, I think you misread my comment.

  28. 28
    Elusis says:

    Realizing how much of the credit Harry got for what was really Hermione’s work at “saving the day” kind of brought the Suck Fairy to my enjoyment of the series post-reading (and films).

    See also this great Tumblr post:
    http://modernetheophanu.tumblr.com/post/70033339060/lightspeedsound-manybodies

  29. 29
    Hector_St_Clare says:

    Delurking,

    Do you really think that there would have been the Napoleonic Wars without Napoleon, or a Cuban Revolution without Castro and Guevara? More recently, do you think that without Hugo Chavez there would have been a revolution in Venezuela? or that without Osama bin Laden there would have been a 9/11 and all that followed?

    Like Robert Bolt said, most people are part of a great mass that follows anything that moves. That’s why charismatic leaders matter, and why vanguard parties matter. And it’s why the Harry Potter narrative is much closer to the truth than democrats (small-d) like yourself give it credit for.

    Sparrow,

    It’s only ‘gross’ if you think that you are the master of your own life and body, and have the right to do with them exactly as you please. Which is a premise that not all of us share. Many women absolutely do have an obligation to bear more children, and some have an obligation to have fewer (though there again, there are licit and illicit means, and abortion is almost always illicit and immoral).

  30. 30
    Hugh says:

    “Do you really think that there would have been the Napoleonic Wars without Napoleon, or a Cuban Revolution without Castro and Guevara? More recently, do you think that without Hugo Chavez there would have been a revolution in Venezuela? or that without Osama bin Laden there would have been a 9/11 and all that followed?”

    Yes, yes, yes, and yes. That’s the consensus of most historians, too.

    “Hugh, I guess if by the Great Man trope you mean “any story that assumes the actions of a protagonist may have an impact on events”, well, okay, but then I think you’re stretching the trope well beyond usefulness.”

    Not what I said. To me the Great Man trope is one where only one character (usually the protagonist) is capable of achieving a major (usually desired, but not always) end. Potter is a slight subversion of this, given that two characters are capable of it. But only a slight one.

    Actually now that I think about it, the villain side of Harry Potter is the trope in its entirety. The death of Voldemort is treated as analogous to the defeat of the new regime – once he’s gone, it’s all over.

  31. 31
    Hugh says:

    PS: For the record I wouldn’t consider what happened in Venezuela to be a revolution, but that’s not really what you were asking.

  32. 32
    closetpuritan says:

    Hector,
    I can kinda see how some theists wouldn’t believe that people have a right to decide what happens to them and to their bodies–or maybe what you’re saying is more along the lines of, whether to have children is never a morally neutral question, in which case I partially agree.

    But unless you believe that you, or other human beings (other than the potential parents) hold the answers to who should reproduce, I don’t see how it relates to sparrow’s comments. And if you DO think you know who should reproduce–who do you think you are, God?

  33. 33
    Mandolin says:

    Thank you, Elusis. Thank you so much.

  34. 34
    closetpuritan says:

    Elusis, you’ve seen these, right?

  35. 35
    Ledasmom says:

    Thanks for those links, closetpuritan; that was an interesting read.

  36. 36
    Elusis says:

    [sigh]

    God I love Sady Doyle.

  37. 37
    dragon_snap says:

    More in the Hermione-is-the-best department :)

  38. 38
    nobody.really says:

    Damn you to hell: Just when I thought I was out of that world, you guys pull me back in.

    Here’s the prophesy — spoiler, spoiler:

    The one with the power to vanquish the Dark Lord approaches. … Born to those who have thrice defied him, born as the seventh month dies … and the Dark Lord will mark him as his equal, but he will have power the Dark Lord knows not … and either must die at the hand of the other for neither can live while the other survives. … The one with the power to vanquish the Dark Lord will be born as the seventh month dies…

    Did Harry Potter meet this test? Yes.

    Did Longbottom? I guess. Who cares?

    ‘Cuz, as I thoroughly documented on this very website, Rowling simply GOT THE LAST BOOK WRONG. If you’d be so kind as to review Paragraph Q, you’d see precisely who the prophesy referred to.

    (Jeez, why do I bother? You type my fingers to the bone, and a mere seven years later it’s as if you’d never existed, is if you’re nobody,really….)

  39. 39
    Ruchama says:

    nobody.really, I had that same theory about who the prophesy referred to. Also, we know that Draco was born around the same time as Harry, since they were the two who were too young for the Apparition classes, right?

  40. 40
    Harlequin says:

    ‘Cuz, as I thoroughly documented on this very website, Rowling simply GOT THE LAST BOOK WRONG.

    I’ve always thought of it as more a reader expectation/author intent mismatch: we all thought she was writing mystery-style fantasy (collect the clues, you can figure out the secret) when it was really adventure-style fantasy (shiny window dressing for a fast-paced plot and some mild moral quandaries).

    I love literature, but you guys are taking Harry Potter WAAAAAYYYY too seriously.

    Yeah, dunno why we’d want to examine the moral underpinnings of a more-than-a-million-words book series that’s sold more than 450 million copies and was the source of a movie series that made $7.7bn in ticket sales. (Not to mention that it’s something we enjoy, so talking about it is totally valid regardless of the worldwide impact. “You’re taking it too seriously” is the equivalent of “You’re not cool”, and I am way too old to be caring about that nonsense.)

  41. 41
    nobody.really says:

    ‘Cuz, as I thoroughly documented on this very website, Rowling simply GOT THE LAST BOOK WRONG.

    I’ve always thought of it as more a reader expectation/author intent mismatch: we all thought she was writing mystery-style fantasy (collect the clues, you can figure out the secret) when it was really adventure-style fantasy (shiny window dressing for a fast-paced plot and some mild moral quandaries).

    Yeah, I’d had a similar thought. The WhoDoneIt format was only a loose framework upon which Rowling hung her list of things that would induce fantasies/nightmares in an adolescent boy (other than sex). So what’s on the list?
    • Parental death/being orphaned
    • Cruel step-parents/siblings
    • Abrupt fame/Discovering that you’re royalty (a classic fantasy of orphans)
    • A new, caring father figure
    • Discovering hidden magical/athletic abilities and financial resources
    • Flying
    • Being ridiculed in the press
    • Making life-or-death decisions/granting pardons
    • Helping uncool peers achieve acceptance
    • Public speaking
    • Being targeted for assassination by secret agents
    • Being seen naked (even if it’s merely copies of yourself)
    • Having friends die
    • Leading an army in battle
    • Fulfilling a public destiny
    • Asking a girl to a dance
    You know, the usual.

    Of course, the tragedy is that there’s no need for a trade-off between the mystery-style and the adventure-style. With sufficient foresight, you can design the clues to lead to the scenarios with the fast-paced plots and moral quandaries. I’m once again reminded of my frustration with the series: It was great, but it could have been so much better!

    For example, I speculated that the final shoot-out would occur at the Ministry because it contains so many cool artifacts that would feature prominently in the action. But I acknowledge that it’s much more fun to have the final shoot-out at Hogwarts. How to resolve the tension? Just move the artifacts to Hogwarts! Heck, Hogwarts is a fortress; in the midst of a war, it makes perfectly good sense to move your treasured assets to a fortress. See? No reason to sacrifice all the rich possibilities Rowling created in her six earlier books.

    That said, I still ponder one Rowling choice as being neither cinemagraphic nor really the source of adolescent fantasies/fears: Harry’s meandering camping trip. I fear being thrust into leadership with neither a plan nor a mentor – but I’m a grown-up. As an adolescent I always had a bold plan to implement, if only people would listen to me. Thus, this aspect of Book 7 really doesn’t fit the mold. I still mull whether this was a stroke of genius/maturity or a goof.

    ACK — I’m back to writing long Harry Potter posts! Enough; be gone!

  42. 42
    Harlequin says:

    Hmm, that’s a good and interesting point about the camping trip. I’ll have to chew over that one for a bit.

    I realised I forgot a bit of my earlier post: I meant to recommend The Name of the Wind by Patrick Rothfuss as a good mystery style fantasy, for those who haven’t read it. I could say some things about the gender politics, but the narrator is explicitly unreliable so it may just be his POV. Fun worldbuilding, lots of mysteries to work out. And I’d also recommend perusing Jo Walton’s reread on tor.com once you’ve finished the book and its sequel (first two of the in an as yet unfinished trilogy)…lots of fun detailed literary criticism and speculation.

  43. 43
    Ledasmom says:

    I’ve always thought that the camping trip of doom was either an attempt to insert possibly-unneeded reality into a fantasy series or the result of having gone on an really bad camping trip. With the right combination of bad weather, bad tent assembly and bad planning, those can stick in your mind for years. There was my Girl Scout camping trip where the inside of the tent was mostly occupied by a puddle, for instance, or the trip with my two children and my mother where one child got a stomach virus before the trip, my mother had it after the trip and the others of us got it during the trip. I was the lucky one whose stomach virus reached the point of inevitability in the middle of the night while I was sleeping in the tent with the stuck zipper.
    Actually, the camping trip in “Deathly Hallows” wasn’t that bad, come to think of it.

  44. 44
    Jake Squid says:

    I’d always thought the camping trip was a place to stash Harry and the Potterettes while plot happened. Utilitarian camping!

  45. 45
    Mandolin says:

    Ditto Jake.

  46. 46
    Jeremy Redlien says:

    Am I the only one who actually appreciated the camping sequences in DH? They have this absolutely desperate vibe to them that (in a manor of speaking) totally justified the splitting the last movie (and which the movies captured pretty well, much better than the similarly desperate march through Morodor by Sam/Frodo in LotR by Peter Jackson). Even if the last two movies did have a few flaws of their own, the inclusion of the extended camping sequences was not among them.

    Don’t mind me, I’ll just be over in my lonely I-love-the-Deathly-Hallow-camping-sequences corner…
    -Jeremy

  47. 47
    Ampersand says:

    The camping sequences are my favorite part! So no, you’re not the only one.

  48. 48
    mythago says:

    I always thought that “adventure” was the original genre of th books, not mystery; I mean, the whole first book is standard British boarding-school adventure, with the genius of setting it in a school for wizards.

  49. 49
    Nat says:

    Folks, we are getting too far off topic here. If Lily Potter had had an abortion, then she might still be alive today. It was, after all, young Harry’s being the apparent fulfillment of prophecy that had made her a target. And even folks who support illegalizing abortion allow for exceptions when the life of the mother is at stake!

    (Admittedly, Lily, being Muggle-born and thus not a pureblood, would have likely ended up an eventual target of the Death Eaters anyway, but by then Neville Longbottom would have saved the day, because Neville!)