From MTV.com, an article about fatsuits inspired by the current movie Just Friends:
But to the overweight person sitting in the audience, the experience must be similar to a black person watching an old blackface minstrel show. When the character is presented as mean-spiritedly as Mike Myers’ Fat Bastard character from the “Austin Powers” movies or scary-thin Courteney Cox-Arquette’s Fat Monica from flashback episodes of “Friends,” it becomes outright torture.
I ran into the MTV piece via Big Fat Blog. I was particularly struck by this dead-on comment by BFB reader “Shyly”:
Years ago, I went to see The Nutty Professor (Eddie Murphy version) with my friend Phil. After the movie, Phil and I ended up discussing fatphobia, and he remarked that during the worse of the fat jokes in that movie I was squirming in obvious discomfort. So there we were, watching the movie: Me uncomfortable with the anti-fat bigotry on screen, and Phil made uncomfortably aware of the fact that what was on screen was anti-fat bigotry by my presence.
It was a weird dynamic. Probably a bit like going to see a Farrelly Brothers movie with a disabled friend.
That’s two “comparison of oppressions” metaphors in this post: fatsuits and blackface (a comparison that a lot of comment-writers at BFB question), and fat and disability. I’ve already done fat and gay, a little over a year ago.
But of course, no two oppressions are really the same. It’s not even the case that any two fat people necessarily feel the same oppression from anti-fat bigotry. In the comments to another post, Reddecca commented that it had never even occurred to her that fat women and fat men are facing the same oppression; she had always thought of fat-phobia as a women’s issue.
She’s not right – after all, that legislator in Hawaii didn’t suggest that only female fat teachers should be weighed and “dealt with appropriately.” But she’s not wrong, either – a lot of the bigotry experienced by fat women is not merely a meaner form of what men experience, but qualitatively different, because of how fat and gender intersect. (For example, disgust at fatness harms both fat men and women; but it also functions as a way of socially controlling and limiting all women, fat or not. See Naomi Wolf’s wonderful polemic The Beauty Myth – or for that matter, Jill’s recent experiences (see especially Zuzu’s comment)). Both lenses – a feminist lens and a fat acceptance lens – are necessary.
Comparisons are onerous and difficult. On a different comments thread on Big Fat Blog, PCKim, herself both fat and Black, objected to the blackface/fatsuit comparison:
Usually it’s not about just racism as an example it’s racism against black people specifically that’s used as examples here constantly. It’s like do you want to be reminded that you’re not thin every time you look around. We don’t want to be reminded every second we’re a minority in this country, or how the man stuck it to us. We have sites for that type of thing.
PCKim makes a great argument. At the same time, I’d hate to think that the civil rights struggle – surely one of the most important moral movemetns in American history – leaves no lessons that can be applied to other situations. Everything is different, but at the same time, every human life is different from every other life. It doesn’t mean that comparisons are always useless, or that fat people can’t learn anything about our own situation by considering the history of racism and sexism. No oppression is totally the same, but no oppression is totally different, either. (Later in her post, PCKim does seem to say that sometimes comparisons are appropriate).
(Postscript: Be sure to read this excellent post by Reddecca, too.)
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The comparison between blackface and fat drag is so self-evident that frankly the backlash against it feels more than a little reactionary to me. As if, there is a feeling that we ought to rank oppressions on which is more worthy of our concern. Black oppression is “real” while fat oppression is almost some kind of idle concern. I’ve seen the same responses directed towards other groups and from other groups. Indeed, even some fat people will not shy away from expressing their disinterest in being compared to gays (much as some gays feel the same in reverse). The thing is, this isn’t a game where one oppression should win. Its like the slavery vs. nazis debate. What value is there to detrimining which is worse? There are always lessons to be learned from what different groups have struggled against, and we should all be free to draw appropriate and informative comparisons where they can illuminate a discussion.
The spectre of fat suits is especially harmful in our culture. The fact that virtually every high profile portrayal of a fat person has really been a thin person wearing stuffing is a very disturbing reality that merits considerable examination. Especially since these depictions are so uniformly mean-spirited. Indeed, this is a point where your comparison to Farallely Brothers movies breaks down. They do hire actual disabled people for those roles, after all. The merits of the depictions aside, that is an important distinction. When they did a story about a fat woman, they hired Gwynth Paltrow and only kept a fat person around as a body double.
I will comment, though, that I’m not sure “Fat Monica” from Friends should qualify as an extreme negative example as the MTV article suggests. Certainly not on par with Myers’ “Fat Bastard”. While I don’t think it is positive, there are some curious aspects of the characterization that give it some nuance. It can be noted that when Monica was fat, she is portrayed as much happier with herself and her life. I don’t think it redeems it, but it is worth noting.
The “comparison” thing gets very tricky.
The trick, as far as I’m concerned, is to remember that while many (or all) different forms of oppression have parallels or similar threads (meaning that, say, I can relate differently to the idea of racism as a white queer woman than I probably would as a white straight dude), the differences are also incredibly important. The specifics of history, especially IMO when you’re talking about the history of racism in this culture, make comparison a limited tool.
I can understand a lot of the frustration that comes from the Black community over this issue — because what tends to happen is that it becomes oversimplified in order to be a “selling point” for tolerance. Anti-gay bias is not just like anti-Black bias, for thousands of historical reasons, and for more than a few current ones — note that I’m relating this through gay stuff precisely because it’s where I come from, but I think that the statement would be true regarding any bigotry. While I agree that we should not ignore the lessons in that history, and we shouldn’t be shy about saying that there are places of intersection, where the similarities in bigotry and reactions to it overshadow the specifics, I also think these comparisons have to be made very, very carefully and with a full understanding that the differences are hugely important factors.
And never forget, especially with the constant comparison to anti-Black racism, that the scale of the thing — hundreds of years first of forced labor then of absolute social and economic exploitation by those in power… so on and so on — means that comparisons really do have to be drawn with an extra bit of care.
All that being said, certainly no oppression (and no one oppression ever “trumps” another) should ever be seen as acceptable, and I’m personally incredibly disturbed by the anti-fat crap floating around right now, and everybody else who values broad social acceptance should be, too.
Just my copper coinage.
I think that comparing fat suits to blackface is inevitable since there’s a lack of similar artificially-assumed-minority-ness genres in entertainment (and actually I don’t think fatsuits have yet acquired the genre-ness that blackface seems to have had). It works within the realm of TV and movies… real life, not so much. There isn’t a lot of similarity between racism and sizism, as has been pointed out already.
From what I’ve seen, the treatment of fat people is more like the treatment of alcoholics or drug users but without the benefit of ideas like “addiction” and “genetic predisposition” and maybe “lifelong struggle”. There’s also a certain similarity to popular attiudes toward depression — that you should just get up and fix it. Pull yourself up by your bootstraps.
But for fat and depression (and even worse, when you have both) it just isn’t that simple. Neither is it that simple for substance abuse, although it seems to me that public opinion has acquired some awareness of that fact.
Just some thoughts.
wellll, i don’t agree with making fun of anyone…but fat is not a beauty issue – it is a health issue. period. i just read today that almost 800,000 NYers are diabetic or will be…due to weight issues. not eating right and not exercising. i understand that others lack of care for self inevitably drives up my health care costs. i don’t want to have to pay higher rates for smokers any more than i do for people who on some level refuse to take care of their bodies. i know that overeating can be an emotional issue…but isn’t self control…i mean doesn’t self responsibility come in here somewhere? is our popluation so uneducated that it truly doesn’t understand that it is not a good idea to eat fast food and junk food every day? that it is important to exercise…for your health…not your physical image…it just happens for some to be a happy side effect. i am not making fun of any one, i worked in a health food store for a while and quickly realized how absolutely lazy most of us are…if it doesn’t come in a pill form, but actually requires effort…no one wants to do it. idk. there is something to be said for taking care of the only body you are given…fat, generally speakikng is not healthy. it is hard on the bones, joints, heart, the list goes on and on…our bodies are not equipped to carry around 50-100 pounds over what ones weight range, whether it be fat or muscle. at a basic level it is inefficient – energy is down, cardiovascular health is down (for the majority). again, i don’t agree with making fun of anyone…but for me, this is a health issue and one with serious repercussions. how many children in the US are obese or nearing there – it is astounding and very sad. the quality of life for most people who are overweight is not so great either. be honest, if you cannot walk up a flight of stairs without feeling the need to gasp for air, if you feel liek a toddler is clinging to your back everyday, in every physical activity, it’s limiting. what about sex!!!!!!!!! much better with healthy people!!!
idk. i think it needs to be looked at as a health issue, not one concerning vanity. at some level – it is self abuse. look at some of the bodies you see walking down the street – not to make fun, but from a health angle. you can accept it, but really, is it healthy? are you taking responsibility for your body? are you overeating to the point you are taking resources from others? with at least 1/5 of our population ranked as obese…what are the ramifications for our society for making fat fun? it is unhealthy. i am not talking about the 1% or so with thyroid situations, that is actually a medical condition. but for most of us, it is on whatever level, a choice not to take full responsibility for our physical health.
if one overeats for emotional reasons – how different is this than any other substance abuse? we don’t say alcoholisim should be accepted as a “fun” life choice. our society as a whole disapproves of those who turn to excess in anything – not just food. if it is a food addiction – why try to spin it as fat is fun and sexy? is it an addiction? a self control issue? a self discipline issue? an emotional issue? weight issues can be very difficult to work through, but if someone abuses themselves with food – are they crying out for help? or they just love food so much they don’t stop themselves?
it’s a very complicated issue. no one should be made fun of for physical reasons, but i don’t think obesity should be defended as a “fat is fun” kind of thing. real people die from obesity every year and the numbers are growing…i would like to know how many people in the US die each year from causes related to obesity vs the numbers in other countries who die from starvation.
real scenario: my grandmother was about 50 ounds overweight throughout her life. she is in a nursing home now b/c her weight is such that our family can no longer physically take care of her…this is a reality. she continued to gain as she aged and never really exercised… she could be at home with us except for her weight and the resulting health issues (knees, back, hips). her reality has been determined – where she will die, has been determined in no small part by the fact that she never took care of herself, or rather she never took it seriously. now she is alone in a nursing home and this is probably where she will die. my parents have seen the reality of the obese elderly and how very difficult it is to care for them – they have both started exercising to make sure they don’t end up in the same boat….idk…life choices.
but at the end of the day – if the buck stops with the president(supposedly in matters of responsibility) – where does the buck stop with the individual? if you overeat to the point that you are unable to work…what am i supposed to do about that? i can’t afford to support any one other than myself…to think that i would have to pay for people on disability or welfare…becuase they ate themselves out of a productive lifestyle???!!! hmmm.
I (and I suspect other of your readers) wonder whether ‘bigotry’ is really the appropriate term for how our society regards fat people. ‘Bigotry,’ to me, is an extremely strong term that connotes not merely dislike or derogation, but a strong, unreasoning hatred. It’s possible that I’m just unaware of what fat people in America really experience, but I find it hard to believe it really rises to the level of bigotry when you consider that classic examples of bigotry are overt racism and homophobia.
I’d be interested in hearing why you think ‘prejudice’ is not strong enough.
Empiricist – let me assure you, as a fat person that “bigotry” is indeed the correct term.
d:
It isn’t that simple. I don’t eat fast food or junk food. I walk half an hour every day, rain or shine (the dog will accept nothing less). My daily calorie intake hovers around 2,000.
And yes, I’m almost 300 pounds.
People get fat for many reasons. Some overeat. Some don’t exercise enough. Some have medical problems. Some inherited it from their parents. The problem is, society does not discern between them at all and just says “Fix yourself.” And then it says “Wouldn’t you like some more ice cream?”
Being fat is not “fun” and it never has been, speaking from my own 34 years of experience being fat. I’m not asking anybody to think it’s “fun”. I’d just like the luxury of not having people assume I’m some weak-willed face stuffer that sits on the couch all day crying into my ice cream. I know it’s a lot to ask, but I can dream, can’t I?
I hope that makes sense, because there’s a lot of screaming going on inside my head right now.
d – Your post is so full of myths and untruths about fat and fat people, I do not know where to begin.
I will suggest you read some articles from different views than the
one you have been fed by the mainstream media. The push behind most of the things you see in the media today about fat being “bad” is the all mighty dollar.
The reality of fat isn’t even close to what the media and the diet industry push.
On Obesity, What the Researchers Didn’t Find
http://www.techcentralstation.com/100704F.html
An Epidemic of Obesity Myths
http://www.obesityscam.com/
Checking the Obesity Math
http://www.techcentralstation.com/120805F.html
Whoppers and the End of an Epidemic
http://www.techcentralstation.com/042205D.html
Big Fat Mistake
http://www.techcentralstation.com/042105B.html
Some Rare Good News on the Obesity Front
http://www.techcentralstation.com/110805D.html
A diet of hysteria
http://www.spiked-online.com/Articles/0000000CA54B.htm
I have tons more links to articles if you want to read more.
point taken. i have been overweight and then got sick to the point it was on the other end and i was grossly thin. peoples meaness works both ways. you wouldn’t believe how many big (all women) are incredibly mean to me simply because i am smaller than they are. they judge me as harshly for my weight as others judge them for their excess weight. i get it almost everyday – skinny bitch anyone? and you would be surprised at the rude things people say to smaller folks – i have never hated anyone for the way they looked, but i have been hated for weighing less than another female.
i have to ask, with as much as you do, and have you been tested for a thyroid condition?
one more point i have to make and i am really, really not trying to be mean – i over ate when i was depressed and gained weight which made me even more depressed. but at some point, and this does not count for everyone!!!!!! one has to learn to say no to america asking if you want to super size. one reason i am still small today is that i changed my eating habits. and it was hard. i had to reteach myself using food as a fuel for my body and not an emotional fix. i have been 50+ and i have been a skeleton – bottom line – i was the only one that could change either of those circumstances.
for SOME it is genetic and there are other medical conditions or even medications that cause a weight gain – i find it impossible to believe that thje majority of overweight americans have some kind of medical issue such as a thyroid condition. i simply do not believe the MAJORITY of overweight people watch what they eat, exercise 20 min 4 days a week – i am not buying it. not for the majority – i have worked with the public for too long to buy that. we are a lazy super sizing group. most go home, sit down, eat, go to bed. we ride instead of walk, we buy instead of making it ourselves. we are physically much lazier than our grandparents generation and yet we eat far more calories.
i beleive for the majority, it is a lesson in learning moderation and taking the challenge of dealing with emotional issues using words instead of food. i’m not saying it’s super easy, but it isn’t rocket science either (everything i say here is for the majority of americans, i realize some people, again, genetics and whatnot) but it is not impossible either. idk, is this a victim issue or a choice (for the majority of overweight americans)? i believe that for most people, it is a choice. it’s a choice to say super size it or no fries with that. it is a choice to say, yes or no to the ice cream – and while personally challenging at times – this is called self discipline and for me, self responsibility.
if there are so many people over weight due to eating for emotional reasons – isn’t this something that should be addressed? why are so many americans abusing food in an attempt to make themselves happy? isn’t this in and of itself a problem? food is fuel – it is not a friend or a comfort. somethings taste better than others, but bottom line – fuel. we are in such a place of excess in our society that we use food not to celebrate or nourish, but as a drug to induce some kind of sugar/carb coma where we hope to escape the realities of our lives…by stuffing ourselves until the dull fog sets in. ok, still a choice. no matter why some chose it – they still make the choice. just like people who cmoke tons of cigs make the choice to smoke. and those that drink in excess make the choice to drink everyday. we are a spowerless as we allow ourselves to be. my father drank for a long time and was an alcoholic, he’s been sober for over 30 years – it wasn’t magic, it wasn’t a pill, it was a hard grind adn the every day will and discipline to say no. no one held his hand, no one holds his hand today. he does it through determination. idk.
As another fat person, let me also condemn the continuing game of who deserves to talk about their oppression concerns. Fat hatred is termed bigotry, and someone immediately must condemn us for the use of the word “bigotry”. As has been explored greatly on this blog, fat hatred mirrors homophobia quite strikingly. While overt violence against fat people is not as common a componant, that is not the only aspect of bigotry. And lets not forget, its more of an issue where anti-gay bigots or racists bigots do not grow out of their desire to use violence against those they hate. It is very common in youth and drives many fat children the depression or suicide.
Beyond that, your standard of an unreasoning hatred is quite precisely what fat people experience. The supposed factual justification for fat hatred is astonishingly weak for something that is so commonly believed. The difficulty with anti-fat bigotry is that our culture regards it largely as a given. Something so obvious that the mere notion of disagreeing is treated with swift and absolute dismissal. There is no reasoning there. I have tried reasoning with anti-fat bigots but it has consistantly been to no avail. Think back to a time, not so very long ago, when the mere suggestion of gay rights of racial equality was quite literally unthinkable. This is the state of anti-fat bigotry today. Most of its adherants don’t obsess over it. They don’t think much about it at all. It just is. Indeed, many fat people themselves are eager proponants of this bigoted thinking (a rather unique circumstance amongst disenfranchised groups to this degree).
Witness, for example, the post from “d” above. This line of response is what fat people who ask for respect can expect to receive. Its not that they hate us. They just cannot tolerate our existance because our existance is bad and there is nothing you can say to shake them of that belief. We were discussing media portrayals (or rather the lack of them) of fat people, but “d” sees fit to threaten us unapologetic fat people with death. These are the stakes fat people must deal with in these discussions. We decry the cruel derision of thin people masquarading as fat people to mock us, and someone will always respond with “Yes, but you’re going to die.” Always. Heaven forbid the discussion actually look critically at this weak justification. Otherwise well-meaning folks will be driven to fits as they deny our right to disagree with them. Deny the facts we put before them. Deny our right to expect fair and equal treatment.
Fat people are denied jobs, education, quality health care. These are civil rights concerns. And “but fat is bad” is always the justification. It is always what we must respond to, and no response will ever suffice. Indeed, how can one debate with someone who concerns our state of being to be self-abuse, as “d” suggests. Think about what an awful suggestion that is. “d” is presuming fat people to be morally inferior. It is a common view which thinks that our bodies are proof of our moral inferiority. We are presumed to be “substance abusers”. If we point out that we aren’t, we are called liars. That is bigotry. This is what fat people go through. No, this is not exactly alike to any other oppressed group, but drawing comparisons where they are appropriate is not the same thing as saying two groups are exactly alike.
As I’ve indicated, there are a number of unique struggles fat people face. The fact that so many fat people support the bigotry is a condition that I cannot find a parallel. Its level of popular acceptance is also unusual in contemporary society, though it does have historical counterparts. This forces fat activists to wage the most basic fights against justifications for hatred that have long been discredited for other brands of bigotry. But, indeed, there is little direct violence against fat adults. However, the medical establishment has devised a “treatment” for our “condition” which has been shown to kill 1 in 20 patients and which gravely diminishes quality of life for others. Yet again, fat people are eager to sign up for such procedures. The media feels a deep need to “balance” any story about fat acceptance with an unquestioning presentation of anti-fat bigotry, but will never offer balance in the reverse. This differences are important and merit discussion. But going over all of them every time a comparison is drawn seems little more than punative. Of course these differences exist. One shouldn’t have to catalog them all every time one sees a similarity worth noting.
ok, except that i have been overweight and i know what that felt like. there is no comparison to how i felt being 50 over weight and how i feel now – none. it’s like i was carrying around a backpack all day long!!!!!! there are articles that say fat is ok there are articles that say it isnt. it seems to change with the tides….i don’t really listen to modern docs – they are mainly drug dealers.
for me, it is about health – about cholesterol, fat content, blood pressure, heart health and mobility. i do not see how one can argue that someone who is extremely overweight “feels” good, that it doesn’t hinder and restrict ones mobility and availability of life choices. and i mean physically feels good. as opposed to weighted down, tired, uncomfortable, low self image. do the majority of overweight americans feel good about themselves adn their health? do they feel better when they lose weight that has been troubling them? does their energy level go up? do they “do” more in general? as a before and after, which do they prefer? for those that have successfully lost weight and kept it up, do they feel good about themselves? why?
is anyone here going to argue that someone within their weight range who exercises and eats right isnt healthier than someone who eats at mcd’s several times a week, doesn’t exercise and is say 150 over weight?
and that certain types of disorders can be prevented through diet and exercise…and that as more of our children become obese they also have a higher incidencde of diabetes?
opinions :) we all got em :)
Witness, for example, the post from “d” above. This line of response is what fat people who ask for respect can expect to receive. Its not that they hate us. They just cannot tolerate our existance because our existance is bad and there is nothing you can say to shake them of that belief. We were discussing media portrayals (or rather the lack of them) of fat people, but “d” sees fit to threaten us unapologetic fat people with death.
just to clear up a…uhh, i don’t know what – first, i don’t hate anyone…esp not b/c of how they look. and umm, i am not threatening anyone with death…seemed a logical follow through, kind of like if you smoke a couple packs a day, you may get lung cancer…still your choice. however, i did seem to change the thread and that was not my intention.
yes, go back to the media issue…much better…maybe people won’t feel so personally attacked, that was not my intention. we are all sensitive about our personal issues and battles. i obviously did not communicate clearly or sensitively enough.
I can’t argue that every single overweight person feels good, of course, but I can tell you that I feel all right, physically. I have regular blood tests and the numbers come back fine. My thyroid is OK. My BP is on the high end of normal, but still normal. I walk, I climb stairs, I can pick up a 50 pound dog when she doesn’t want to go see the vet. Can I run a mile? Probably not. Does that affect my availability of lifestyle choices?
Eating right and exercising will make *anyone* healthier, regardless of weight. I don’t think anyone is going to argue that. Eating at McD’s and not exercising makes *anyone* less healthy, regardless of weight. You don’t hear much about that side of things, though.
Personally, I think everyone should take care of themselves — and realize that taking care of yourself will not get everybody the same result.
Low self image? I grew up overweight. Nuff said.
d said “is anyone here going to argue that someone within their weight range who exercises and eats right isnt healthier than someone who eats at mcd’s several times a week, doesn’t exercise and is say 150 over weight?”
Lets turn it around and see if you like the way it reads.
Is anyone here going to argue that someone who exercises and eats right and is 150 pounds “over weight” isn’t healthier than someone who eats at mcd’s several times a week, doesn’t exercise and is “normal weight”?
carlaviii makes a really important, and generally neglected, point in the whole thing, as far as I’m concerned — weight may, but also sometimes does not, correlate with overall health, given that health as a broad thing can’t be broken down into a couple of handy-dandy factors based on a few numbers.
I have dated people that were considered, by many, overweight, yet who were frankly far healthier people than most. Ate fairly well, exercised regularly, overall in better shape than most of us. One friend of mine comes to mind — she’s just built BIG. But she’s far healthier overall — even nutritionally — than I am, frankly, while I’m supposedly near my “ideal” weight.
The people pushing the “but we’re maligning you for your own good!” crap are (1) incredibly condescending thinking that they can emotionally beat people into leading their concept of a healthy lifestyle and (2) utterly missing the point that health is about a whole lotta shit, and while yes many Americans have weight issues relating to poor overall health (poor diet, no exercise, eg), it does not logically follow that everyone who gets placed as “overweight” on our weird little standardized scale is, in fact, particularly unhealthy.
Maybe those folks really need to take that “I know what’s best for others” energy and go push people to eat more veggies instead. Because from what I can tell, Americans’ eating patterns give some pretty piss-poor nutrition, and that’s about a lot more than fat and calories. But I guess as long as you look skinny, we figure culturally that you’re “healthy” — whatever that means.
What I find so interesting about the fat suit forays is that so many of them seem to be motivated by sympathy and curiosity, but end up being one big ol’ fat joke, out of sheer discomfort and fear of associating too closely with the pariah. In the same bassackward way, I think some whites who adopted blackface believed they were doing a good thing, in making an effort to humanize black people to a hostile, white audience.
When “Shallow Hal” came out, the Farrelly Brothers argued that the movie was fat-positive —“a valentine to fat people.” I was actually surprised how much I enjoyed it, once I choked down the cheap fat humor. The Rosemary character was actually interesting and dignified in a lot of ways. The thing that feels weirdest to me about characters like Rosemary and fat Monica on “Friends” is that the writers clearly like them, but they can’t seem to restrain the urge to distance themselves with cheap digs – as if they suddenly remember they’d better make fun of this woman’s fat ass, or the hyenas might take them down with her.
Honestly, I think this is the best a bunch of nerdy white guys can do (and that’s the whole power base of the entertainment industry), toward demonstrating empathy toward anyone who isn’t like them, or who it wouldn’t raise their status to have sex with. It’s not surprising to me that the Farrelly brothers would feel they had created a sympathetic character in Rosemary – but they also made her a freak, and without doing that, I don’t think they would have been comfortable allowing her the amount of humanity that they did.
d – most of the issues you raised re: fat and health were addressed extensively in the “fat vs. gay” threads Amp wrote last year (and comments) – and, well, actually, in pretty much any fat thread that has run here. There is always someone who says “but fat is unhealthy!” and often, additionally “I was fat, so I know!” It gets tiresome having to address whether or not fat is healthy whenever anything fat-related comes up. Anyroad, I’d recommend reading those past threads and comments.
Best,
MG
Well, gosh, d, I’ve been thin and fat so I know what both feel like, too. So maybe you should presume that you have been endowed with some special knowledge because you seem to be in the 1% of the population who is maintaining a weight loss (of a whopping 50lbs no less!). Maybe, just maybe, your weight loss doesn’t give you the right to condemn any over 200lbs of being self-abusive. But I guess you must know better than all of us, huh.
I’ve been fat and thin. I ate the same in both states, and was physically active in both states. Want to know what? Both states feel remarkably the same. Oh, and I’m 85lbs over what I used to weigh so I guess I must know better than you by 35lbs!
Eating a moderate and healthy diet (very different from a weight loss or weight loss maintance diet) and being reasonably active are healthy for everyone. And they haven’t been shown to make people significantly thinner (if any thinner). But they have been shown to improve health for all people, fat and thin. Your insulting comparison reveals your bigotry, d. No one is going to make your hypothetical arguement d, and that fact that you seem to think that is representative of those who disagree with fat bigotry speaks volumes. What I will argue is that the health of a fat person who eats well and stays active and that of a thin person who eats well and stays active isn’t substantially different. I will also argue that the health of a thin person who eats only fast food and is sedentary and that of a fat person who does them will also not be substantially different.
I will also argue that your morbid condemnations of your slightly fat grandmother is insulting to all fat people. I’ll argue that calling fat people self-abusive if not a respectful way to engage a discussion and warrents you no respect in return. I have no patience for the kind of hatred fat people are expected to put up with from people like you. If you were attacking gay people in the same manner, no gay person would be expected to grovel at your non-apparent but much professed “sensitivity”. I will do you no favors because the object of your diatribes are a culturally approved target. I see little reason to apologize to people who respond to my body in such an insulting manner, and you are no different “d”. If you want to examine why I respond to your posts as I did, you can look for the answer in the content of your posts. You did a perfectly good job communicating the limits of your sensitivity. I simply pointed them out.
I think it’s worth noting that, to the extent that resentment of the overweight stems from concerns (valid or otherwise) about the imposition of medical costs of obesity on society at large, this wouldn’t be an issue if our medical system wasn’t so highly collectivized. I do resent people whose poor health habits drive up my taxes and insurance premiums, though I have no idea to what extent the obese fall into this category.
Carlaviii:
Walking isn’t enough. Resistance exercise—with heavy weights, not with soup cans—is an important part of any serious health regimen. Among other benefits, it increases insulin sensitivity and helps to restore the muscle mass that can be destroyed by years of yo-yo dieting. Aside from speeding up your metabolism and assisting in weight loss, this can help to protect you from strength loss in your old age.
Stumptuous.com is a good resource for…well…anyone, really, but it was written primarily for women by Krista Scott-Dixon, a licensed and bonded feminist (the hyphen tells you she’s legit!). There’s advice specifically for fat people here.
Krista rocks. I wouldn’t sell machines short, though, particularly if you have bad knees or are just starting out. Anyway. Go. Look. Read.
I gotta say, I think this rationale for fatphobia is a false one. I mean, smoking is incredibly unhealthy, but smokers aren’t exposed to the same level of loathing. If they were, I wouldn’t know so many people who are paranoid about gaining a few pounds once they quit smoking. And people wouldn’t be engaging in so many unhealthy strategies to keep from gaining a few extra pounds.
And to follow-up to my last comment: Krista is a great resource for anyone who wants to learn safe and effective weight-training. However, neither carlaviii nor anyone else on this thread–at any weight–should feel any pressure from me to do so. Feel free to keep walking. In fact, feel free to stop walking and sit at home with a tub of ice cream. Your life is none of my business, and to pretend otherwise is to engage in anti-fat bigotry.
And remember, carlavii, if some random guy who blames fat people for his health care costs tells you that you are properly active, he must know what he’s talking about. I have little doubt, Brandon, that you felt empowered to make such a self-important judgement because carlavii admited to being fat. And us fatties need to be told what’s what, right? What with us being a drain on your lifestyle and all with our increasing health care costs because, well, we’re fat so we must just do that or something. Wal-Mart said so, so it must be true.
Whoa, BStu’s on fire tonight. Thanks :)
Hey, if someone would come to my house and do the laundry, clean up, cook dinner and feed the animals — for free — I’ll use the time for weight training. :)
Or, if I can clear enough space on the floor, take up yoga again.
I seem to remember Amp sticking a ‘no bringing up “but being fat is unhealtheee!” arguments in this thread’ on some previous fat discussion threads that weren’t intended to be rebutals of that argument. I think this thread is a reminder of why that was a good idea.
While watching d’s arguments get stomped is fun, and there is some very good stomping being done, I think d’s argument is nothing more than a derailment of the thread topic. “Being fat is unhealthy!” is the “but men get raped too!” of fat threads.
My impression is that smokers are loathed more than fat people. (This may be a UK thing). The trend here is for smoking in public to become increasingly proscribed, and there is considerable support for this among non-smokers.
The difference is that smoking degrades the immediate environment in a way which is both unpleasant and unhealthy.
There is a world of difference between the scorn doled out to someone lighting up and that leveled against fat people. Perhaps the treatment of fat people is much better in the UK, but to be honest I’ve heard and seen nothing to suggest that. Fat people are discriminated in the workplace, in their personal lives, subjected to intense ridicule throughout childhood and regretably often right into adulthood. All the while, there is a multi-billion dollar industry dedicated to ensuring that fat people are treated thusly and selling their appropriate product. A smoker may get some nasty looks, but I cannot imagine they are given the degree of self-righteous condemnations fat people see in their daily lives. This, inspite of the fact that the link between smoking and poor health is enormously more established than the supposedly much graver risks of being fat. When you put the pack away, no one may know someone is a smoker. I cannot put my fat away.
It struck me as appropriate that my trip home on the train was under the constant watchful eye of a poster designed to mock and ridicule my body in the promotion of some manner of weight loss product. This is what fat people go through everyday. We turn on the TV and there are ads showcasing results not typical. Magazines touting how we can halve ourselves. Posters that poke fun at us. This is another unique aspect of anti-fat bigotry. I cannot think of a modern (or historical, for that matter) counterpart. Only fat people have to contend with an industry making billions of dollars directly off fat hatred. Not indirectly through exploitation or something, but literally by packaging and selling fat hate and fat people are the customers. I certainly can’t think of a parallell to at such a scale.
I am sure that many over weight people face bigotry on a daily basis, and I feel for them.
I have always been a skinny person (jockey stock) and as a guy have had to deal with negative comments about being small, or “you need to eat more” (I eat a lot but never put on weight, very fast system) So I do empthasise with the pressure others can put on you.
But I would never compare it to Race, gender or sexuality and the discrimination that people can face in these issues, as these are things that you cannot change about yourself, you will always be Black and you cannot change that.
I could if I had the motivation get myself to the gym, work on some weights bulk up, and an over weight person can make steps to change themsleves if they wish.
This is why I feel it is viewed different to these other forms of predjudice, I am not saying this is right or wrong, just stating why many will not see it as a valid comparison.
So would you compare it to discrimination based on religion, which is something people can change?
Another difference is in the very definition of “fat.” The sitcom wife must be underweight. The sitcom husband often has a “beer gut” at the very least. And this dichotomy plays out in real life too; women are held to a different standard of “fat” and “thin” than are men.
Interesting. But I don’t see many ads on TV telling me I need to change my religion. All of the religious discrimination I’ve seen (against, say Moslems) tends to be tied up in their greater cultural background (they’re Arab), which is the main target of the discrimination.
And I agree, gender does have a large effect on what sort of anti-fat message one receives — but both genders do get a heaping plateful of it. Yes, sitcom dads are allowed a beer gut but then again, a lot of sitcom dads are portrayed as pretty clueless. (I don’t watch sitcoms, so maybe I’m off base, but that’s the impression I get from the thousands of ads)
Fat men are stripped of their sexuality, same as women. They’re assumed to be lacking the “willpower” to work the weight off, just like women. They have trouble finding clothes that fit, they have trouble squeezing into airplane seats, they feel the same shame about their bodies. I think there’s supposed to be an extra sting because of the “men are always in control” stereotype that isn’t applied so much to women (which is bullsh*t).
A lot of fat people seem to be very defensive about fatness, which is completely understandable, considering the prejudice that they face.
Still, is it quite right to go to the opposite extreme of pretending that fatness is completely irrelevant to health, that fatness doesn’t affect the way anyone feels, etc., etc.?
I know for a fact that if you pay attention to your body, you can tell a difference in how you feel with a mere 20 pound difference in weight — you feel like you have more of a spring in your step, climbing a flight of stairs isn’t as hard, etc. When someone says that they can’t tell any difference between a normal weight and 75+ pounds overweight, I just don’t believe it. You wouldn’t feel a difference if someone strapped a 75-pound backpack on your back? That’s impossible. What’s really going on there is that the change was so gradual that the person just forgot what it felt like at the other weight.
As for health, I think we’re missing something here. Yes, it is possible for fat people to be healthier than thin people — if you imagine a fat person who eats a modest healthy diet and exercises contrasted with the thin person who never exercises and who eats fast food all the time. But come on: most people don’t fall into those categories. On average, people who eat healthier diets and get some real exercise (I don’t mean sauntering around the block) are going to be thinner.
Let me put it this way: I’ve worked out in gymnasiums for the past 15 years or so, in several different states. I have almost never seen a genuinely fat person who was making any kind of serious effort to exercise. I have seen fat people sitting on exercise bikes going at such a leisurely pace that they’re barely burning any more calories than if they were asleep.
Conversely, I’ve known a lot of fat people, including in my own family (so please don’t accuse me of “hate” or “bigotry”). I’ve never known a fat person who 1) genuinely ate a healthy diet of lean meats, fresh vegetables and fruits, and whole grains (which any of us should be eating); and 2) made a serious effort to exercise. No, strike that: I’ve never known a person who could manage to stay fat if they 1) genuinely ate a healthy diet of lean meats, fresh vegetables and fruits, and whole grains; and 2) made a serious effort to exercise. Everyone that I’ve ever known who really does those things ends up losing some weight. Not that they become stick-thin, but that’s not the goal. The point is, I just don’t really believe that all fat people are genuinely eating a healthy and controlled diet, exercising vigorously (not just a stroll around the block), but are completely unable to lose weight.
Maybe you are the one exception to that rule. If so, that’s ok. But the fact is, when millions of Americans are overweight, this is a clear sign that 90+% of them aren’t exercising enough and aren’t eating healthy diets.
* * *
Finally, this has been hinted at, but it deserves repetition. If being fat is just a matter of genetics/hormones/whatever, why are so many more Americans overweight now than 100 years ago? Did the biology of the American body change that much over the past 100 years? Or is it because we changed from a farm society to a couch-potato society?
Or put it this way: Why are so many Americans overweight compared to some tribal societies where zero people are overweight? Maybe it could be because we live in an automobile-and-fast-food society, while they live in a society where food is more scarce and people do a lot of walking everywhere?
Just to be clear, let me emphasize one point: The goal of life shouldn’t be to lose weight. The goal should be to be healthy.
My point is that health and weight often really do go together. The obese person who eats a truly healthy diet and gets some vigorous exercise (lifting weights, running 30 minutes 4 or 5 times per week) usually won’t stay obese. And the person who never exercises and just eats fast food is often going to become overweight. (Have you never known any of the zillions of people who became gradually more and more overweight as they aged? Do you think that this is because of a genetic condition that causes people to gain a couple of pounds a year between the ages of 30 and 50?)
Let me put it this way: If you look at the 40-pound overweight person who exercises regularly compared to the non-overweight person who never exercises, the first is going to be more “healthy.” No question about that. And if you’re the 40-pound overweight person, and you really do exercise vigorously and still can’t lose weight, don’t worry about it.
But at the same time, when you look across the country, there’s no way that most of the overweight people are really getting any kind of regular exercise or eating a healthy diet. If that was really happening on a broad scale, we’d see a lot more runners on the road; McDonald’s would go out of business; etc., etc.
So to sum up, the message that the average overweight person needs to hear is not:
1. Lose weight at all costs, because weight in and of itself is harmful.
But nor is it:
2. Who cares if you’re overweight? Fat is fine, and anyone who talks about health is just bigoted.
The real message should be:
3. Eat right — lean meats, fresh produce, whole grains, little or no sugar or saturated fats, healthy oils (olive oil, etc.). Exercise VIGOROUSLY — 20 or 30 minutes of hard running, 4 or 5 times per week, plus lifting weights. If you do that, your weight doesn’t really matter.
(Of course, MOST people who really follow message # 3 are inevitably going to lose at least some weight.)
I wouldn’t be too quick to dismiss the throid issue. Hypothyroidism (low thyroid function) is not a rare condition at all — in 2001, there were 1.75 million incidents of hypothyroidism v. 15,000 incidents of cancer.
Last summer, I decided to get serious about losing weight. Modified my diet, took up running 2-3 miles a couple of times a week. I lost NOTHING. And I didn’t feel any more energetic for all the effort. I was still tired all the time.
This last fall, I was diagnosed with a seriously low thyroid function, so that explains a lot of the symptoms.
Seriously, if you are gaining weight, and also have symptoms of fatigue, depression, vision and hearing problems, puffiness around the eyes, etc. have your thyroid checked.
The “but you can change” justification for bigotry, Wookie, is a smokescreen. Gay people can “change”. Indeed, they can change FAR more easily than fat people. While diets fail upwards of 99% of the time, all a gay person need do is not date a person of the same gender. There is no pill to take, no surgery that kills 1 in 20 gay people, no need to obsessively monitor something they need to do all the time like breathe. They just don’t act on their sexual desire. A far easier use of “will-power” than controlling eating, something we need to do. Especially since there is no proof that fat people eat more than thin people to begin with. So, does that mean we shouldn’t really care about homophobia? I mean, you said you wouldn’t compare them, but why not if gays can “change”.
When diets fail 99% of the time, then change is a myth. When 90% of failed diets result in more weight being regained than had been lost, change is a myth. When the “miracle” being pushed on fat people leaves 1 in 20 dead in only the first year, then change is a myth.
[double post deleted]
What do you mean, “diets fail 99% of the time”? Everyone — not just fat people — should ideally be eating a healthy diet that leaves out fast food, processed flours and sugars, sugary drinks, etc., and instead consists of lean meat (if any at all), fresh produce, whole grains, olive oil, etc. What does it mean for that kind of “diet” to “fail”?
Aren’t you really talking about fad diets that people try for a month and then quit? Hence studies find that their “diet” didn’t “work” years later. Well, big surprise.
That doesn’t affect my point. If people would actually eat a healthy diet (like the one I recommend), they’d be much better off. And if they then quit the healthy diet, it isn’t the DIET that “failed.”
Sorry about the double post — it looked like the post failed the first time.
[No big deal – it happens all the time. –Amp]
I am also very weary of people like Nona who stand for the same old fat hate but who are certain of their correctness that they imagine that they actually represent the “middle ground”. They define the “middle ground” of course, as a complete and unmitigated condemnation of fat people. Just so long as you act like you’re not being mean about it. They belittling define fat acceptance as extreme and draw the parallel as hyperbolic fat hatred. That’s not a fair comparison and its certainly not a centrist position to basically agree with everything the fat hate side has to say and only offer token concessions that usually are little more than self-serving affirmations of fat hate to begin with and really concede nothing to what fat acceptance is saying. No, Nona. You are not a centrist. You stand on the side of fat bigotry whether you know it or not. You are standing up for a position because it is what everyone says is true and you figure if everyone is saying it, it must be right. No, I don’t think you sat down and decided to disrespect fat people. No, I don’t think you made a deliberate decision to expouse a hateful ideology. But you’re still doing it. This is the challenge fat people face. A lot of perfectly well-meaning people reject what we have to say sight unseen. They’ll say, “Well, maybe its not quite as awful as the worse fat haters say, but you’re still wrong in every way that matters.” They say it with an absolute certainty that is astounding hard to argue with. They look at us as if we are trying to say that water is dry and the sky is green. All the while using hateful and insulting words like “obese” and “overweight” without every pausing to consider the judgementalism of their chosen language. Most people who stand up for fat hate never think about it. They just assume it. They aren’t passionate warriors for fat hate. Just a sea of foot soldiers following orders.
The message should be that the focus on weight has utterly failed fat people for decades and it needs to be undone. The health concerns of fat people (and all people, for that matter) will be best persued by adopting “Health at any size” principles and encouraging not only healthy and moderate eating but also healthy relationships with food without any positve or negative stigmas. People need to learn how to listen to their bodies and have a normal relationship with food. And people should be encouraged to maintain moderate and achievable activity levels with excercise they enjoy and can make a natural part of their lives rather than a chore or something that offers a significant risk of injury. This approach HAS been shown to improve health dramatically. But guess what… it hasn’t been shown to induce weight loss. Saying, “eat right and excercise and don’t worry about weight” is a strong message, but not when it is given the addition, “that’s the best way to lose weight”. All you are doing is continuing to put the focus on weight but creating an elaborate facade where you pretend not be focusing weight. That’s not a change. That’s the same approach that has discouraged so many fat people from persuing their health in achievable ways. Because they are always told, its really the weight that matters. They are always told healthy means thinner. You may think you rejected that thinking, but you agreed with it a second after rejecting it. A fat person can do all the right things, but when they see that they haven’t lost weight, they will become discouraged and many will give up such good actions. Because they are told it doesn’t matter if they are fat. Weight needs to be taken out entirely. There is no justification for stigmatizing fat people in the name of health. It has had nothing but a negative impact on the health of fat people and its high time it stopped.
In context, it seemed clear to me that BStu was saying that weight-loss diets fail 99% of the time.
Of course, it depends on how you define “failure” and “success.” However, if “success” is defined as turning a fat person into a non-fat person for at least five years, then BStu is correct. No weight-loss plan has ever been shown in a peer-reviewed study to reliably lead to significant, long-term weight loss.
All weight-loss plans that have been tested in a legitimate peer-designed study fail for well over 95% of users, if the goal is to make someone who is fat no longer fat. That’s true not only of “fad” diets but also true of allegedly more sensible weight-loss diets.
Do those studies examine whether the person actually *stuck to the diet*? I mean, are there any studies that find the following:
People who start eating little meat, lots of fresh produce, little or no sugar (in drinks or otherwise), and only healthy oils, and who KEEP TO THAT HEALTHY DIET for the next five years, nonetheless do NOT lose any weight and experience no difference in health after 5 years of sticking to that diet.
I could be wrong, obviously, but I’m very skeptical that there any studies that find any such thing. What I’ve seen are studies that say something more like, “Someone who tries Jenny Craig for 3 months and then quits doesn’t have any long-lasting benefit.” To which I say, knock me over with a feather.
Well, what does it tell you, if 99% of people can’t stay on a “healthy” diet?
If a teacher gives a test, and 99% of the students fail, then it’s hard to say that’s the students’ fault. It’s more likely that either the test is too hard or the teacher failed to teach the correct things well enough.
Emily — A lot of fad diets are too weird, or they require you to count cards of calories, or to follow particular recipes, or other requirements that are too tedious in the long run. The healthy diet that I’ve been describing is not the same thing — just follow a few simple rules: Avoid sugar; avoid processed flour; go for the fresh fruits and vegetables whenever possible; avoid saturated fats. This is very simple, and is by no means beyond the capacities of 99% of people. Heck, you can even eat at McDonald’s, if you pick the garden salad with a low-fat dressing, or maybe the yogurt/fruit. It’s not that hard to do.
I agree with Nona… To a certain point.
Nona writes (#32):
(emphasis added)
I don’t think overweight persons “need to hear” the message #3 (certainly not #1 or #2) any more than thin- or average weight persons need to hear it (that is, I think everyone needs to hear it, but I’d probably leave the part “vigorously”). This is the problematic part: That people assume overweight people aren’t currently doing that, and thin or average are.
And how does one define overweight? Looking at people or BMI? BMI is ridiculous anyway, many, many athletes who exercise religiously and have on optimum diet for their sport (especially ones involved in sports that require strength/physical contact) are overweight by BMI. Many people who don’t exercise and eat unhealthy food are thin (I have always been thin, I was thin when I didn’t exercise and ate crappily, I’m still thin but now I am in good health and I feel I can do more with my body. That feels good.) . And judging a book by its cover is usually a bigoted way of making judgement.
I guess what I’m trying to say is that the tie-breaker for me in Fat Acceptance is whether it advocates for unhealthiness or passive acceptance of unhealthiness or not. Luckily it doesn’t seem to necessarily do that, which is why I’m ok with it. This is what I believe on other health issues too, “do what you will to your own body no matter how unhealthy” is consistent with private, invidualized health-care, but with socialized, public health-care (that I support, in theory and in practice) awareness raising and suggesting people to give up unhealthy lifestyles is sensible. And I’m not saying, I repeat that being fat in itself=unhealthy lifestyle.
Nona- you make some good points, and sure weight is a factor in overall health. But it is one of a very large number of factors, and I think where I personally get really pissed is when it becomes the focus — say, with things like the low-carb diets, for example, in which weight is certainly lost, but likely with the high price of nasty effects on the heart and circulatory system.
If you placed me, again near my “ideal” weight right now, next to the larger friend I referenced above, and asked anyone which one of us was “healthier”, they’d say me. They’d be utterly, utterly wrong. I eat like crap most of the time, go through long phases of very little exercise, I smoke and drink far too much, bla bla bla. She, on the other hand, does everything pretty much right… but has some extra pounds that are just part of her build.
-That- is a sign that while weight can certainly be involved in health, it has also become inseperable, socially, from bigotry or bias or whatever we call it (I’m not interested in semantics right now) that prevents people from seeing the whole person’s health rather than seeing their “bad” fatness.
I also think that while our cultural diet is downright nasty right now, and we should be doing something about it, and I agree that it leads to larger problems statistically with obesity/weight problems, again it simply does not follow that an individual who is “overweight” is significantly likely to be more or less healthy than a person who is not — there are just too many factors in that. And A leads to B does not mean that B leads to A. Eating McD’s is unhealthy whether it leads to weight gain or no.
As an absolute aside, I can tell that very few of you are smokers — because smokers are absolutely treated with this kind of contempt and condescention. I can rarely get through an entire day without some total stranger lecturing me on my nasty habit. I recently read somewhere that a few employers are starting to refuse to hire smokers — I will search for the link.
No matter what you think about health issues, there’s just no reason to treat people with some of the attitudes I see around smoking, either.
Also, ditto to Tuomas’s point that the very definition of “overweight” is basically bunk. BMI is stoopid for more reasons than I want to go off about right at this moment.
d writes:
You know what your experience was like, but nobody has any business assuming that their own experience of being fat is or was just like anybody else’s experience. You know what it felt like for YOU. You do not know what it feels like for others.
You need to learn that the concepts of health and fat are totally different. There are fat unhealthy people. There are thin unhealthy people. There are thin healthy people. There are fat healthy people. The mainstream media has constantly pushed the idea of “fat=unhealthy” for decades, and I’m afraid you’ve bought right into it. It isn’t true. The relationship between fat and health is incredibly complicated, and fat people deserve more respect than unquestioning acceptance of the “fat=unhealthy” idea.
Is that because your own experience was different? If you want to imagine how someone very fat can feel good, then try listening to fat people about their experiences. You’ll hear a variety of experiences.
If you would like to hear about a positive experience and are open-minded to the idea that there are some fat people who feel good about themselves, then I’ll tell you that I as a very fat person feel good about myself. I feel pretty good, physically. I don’t feel particularly weighed down, I don’t feel tired unless I could do with going to bed and sleeping, I don’t feel uncomfortable, and I certainly don’t have a low self-image.
Who knows? I would imagine not, given how hard the media try to make fat people feel bad about themselves. But who cares? Even if it were a minority of fat Americans (or those of another nationality) that felt good about themselves, why would that justify such condemnations and assumptions about fat people?
You are asking the wrong questions. If you are GENUINELY concerned about health, rather than fat (uncommon though that is) then the question you should be asking is how is it possible to help people to good health and feeling good about themselves? (Notice that size doesn’t figure in there.)
Oh that one’s easy to answer. They don’t manage to lose weight, at least not many people do for any significant amount of time. So the question is irrelevant.
Notice how to try and get a comparison that reflects your views, you have added some healthy lifestyle descriptors to the slim person, and you’ve added some unhealthy lifestyle descriptors to the fat person. You’re not being very fair, are you?
Notice how you’ve shifted away from “fat” onto the issues of eating and exercise. Notice once more that these are different issues from that of “fat”.
To answer the question, there are all sorts of disorders that can be prevented through all sorts of unusual combinations of eating and exercise habits. This doesn’t prove anything about your views about fat.
Certainly diabetes is becoming more common, and if you’re trying to argue for health improvements concerning diabetics and prevention of diabetes, fine. But note that you don’t have to bang on about obesity. You can be pro-health measures just fine without trying to make fat people feel bad about themselves by tying obesity to diabetes.
Nona,
None of what you are saying justifies approaching fat people with this righteous battering ram of health information. I agree that the American lifestyle is very unhealthy, but fat people are not the only ones living that lifestyle by a long chalk, and I disagree with you strenuously about the notion that thin people all eat healthy diets of grains and vegetables and go to the gym regularly. They eat fast food and drive around in SUVs too. It’s not good for any of us, so why not level your crusading attitude at the system rather than at individuals and bring about positive change for everyone?
Also, as to why you never see fat people in the gym – most of the fat people I know, women especially, would rather die than exercise under scrutiny. When I started exercising (I’m one of the virtuous fat people), I hid in the basement and threw a rubber playground ball at the wall for an hour every night. No one could see me, I was not surrounded by disco and mirrors and sneering skinny people who were evaluating my performance and deciding whether or not I was exercising hard enough. It was still hard, because *I* knew what I looked like exercising, and loathed myself for it. By the way, a fat person doesn’t have to move as fast as a thin person to burn off the same number of calories – that’s one of the advantages of carrying extra weight.
Another point I like to bring up to people who argue that it’s okay to look at a fat person and judge them not healthy and in need of remedial hectoring by thin busybodies, is what about someone like me? I exercise 2-4 hours a day and eat 2000 cal – I’ve lost 120 lbs, but I am still a “big” girl. I’ve had to turn my life upside down and set aside other, honestly more important goals in order to dedicate as much focus and energy as I’ve needed to dedicate in order to pull this off. I am lucky I have no dependents, plenty of money and only work 30 hours a week. I am lucky I live in a city that is safe enough for me to go running at night and where it’s easy to ride a bike everywhere. I am lucky I can afford therapy and have good friends supporting me as I tediously go on and on about the emotional impacts of losing a shitload of weight and *still* being considered fat by a large percentage of the population.
Also, “everyone should eat healthily” is a blind too. My diet is mostly crap, but because I am losing weight, people always assume that I am eating healthier. Whenever anything health-related seems to improve in me, someone will always attribute it to my weight loss and how healthily they assume I am eating. It’s not my diet they are scrutinizing, it is my waistline.
Women with giant breasts would be probably healthier with breast reductions. Would you dare to go around pushing at them to do it? People shunted into lousy jobs because of lack of education would be better off with degrees – if one of them bemoaned his/her lack of options on a thread dedicated to the subject, would you chime in with “yes, but if you got a better education, you’d be better off!”
Health for all is a wonderful notion – but when you start using it as a bludgeon on a group of people whose situations vary more widely than you could possibly know, you are not being kind. When you minimize the difficulty of the task you would thrust on them – the millions of changes, small and great, a fat person would have to make in order to lose enough weight to appear thin and not come in for the blanket fat person judgments, you’re not being kind. You’re not even being helpful. You’re just being rude.
MG
This is a great point by Mary Garden that I wanted to repeat
It’s not my diet they are scrutinizing, it is my waistline.
because in one sentence hit on a big chunk of what I was trying (and doing a piss-poor job) to say above.
Great post, intriguing discussion. Couldn’t find a trackback feature here so just a comment to let you know I referred to this post on my own blog, LuckyWhiteGirl.com
since the only medical problem being discussed here that contributes to weight concerns thyroid problems, i’d also like to add some facts about another just for informational purposes (though it affects me via my wife, who has the condition).
the condition is polycystic ovarian syndrome (PCOS). it was named because it was originally thought of as a disease that causes the growth of ovarian cysts. but it has since been discovered that it is more of hormonal and metabolic disorder that usually (though, as in the case of my wife, not always) causes ovarian cysts. PCOS is a genetic disorder that may affect up to 10% of women according to some estimates. symptoms include infertility, weight gain, facial hair, acne, propensity for heart disease, and propensity for diabetes.
this is really an insidious condition: it is genetic, and it was evolutionarily selected for because it allows women who have it to better withstand times of famine by more easily storing food as fat. my wife was diagnosed with diabetes at age 20, and became insulin-dependent soon after. now, her pancreas simply doesn’t function to produce insulin. the only problem is: her insulin shots cause weight gain (as they do in many people). which causes a greater need for insulin shots. which causes weight gain. etc.
i have seen her go on a medically supervised diet in which she ate about 400-600 calories a day. she did not cheat (except very occasionally when she misjudged her insulin, and her very low blood sugar required it). she lost 30 pounds in a month and then, amazingly, almost nothing for the next 5 months. yes, she went off the diet…that kind of deprivation is insane even with results, which she wasn’t getting. now nutritionists tell her that the diet itself might have messed up her metabolism by telling her body she was in a time of famine and needed to store fat (which she is better at due the convenient PCOS).
anyway, i tell this story mostly because this condition is so woefully unknown and so insidious at causing weight gain and preventing weight loss, especially in combination with diabetes. you can find more information here,
As Emily suggests, counting only the people who are able to maintain unhealthy and disordered eating would miss the point of why diets fail. And by diets, obviously in this context I mean weight loss diets. I never fail to be annoyed with people who try to parse that out when the context is unmistakable. Its simply another example of certain individuals finding the fat acceptance position so completely alien that they seem incapable of grasping obvious and direct context.
Diets fail precisely because they are unsustainable. As one loses weight, one needs to eat less and less in order to maintain the momentum. This is not something that can continue. I’ve seen what “successful” dieting looks like. Its called anorexia. But what we bemoan in thin women is lauded and praised in fat women. I’ve seen women starve themselves “successfully” and enjoy nothing but praise for their disordered eating because we live in a culture which approves of such unhealthy practices when practiced by fat people.
Diets fail because the condition they presume to treat is a myth. Fat people don’t eat more than thin people. Studies have repeatedly shown this, and I don’t recall any study even trying to prove the contrary. Why try and risk failing, after all, when everyone believes it to be true without proof. If fat people do not eat more than thin people, the notion that starving them will ultimately work is specious at best. Frankly, it serves little purpose but to punish people for having fat bodies.
It all rests on the assumpsion that our fat bodies are proof of our moral failings. It is assumed that a fat person must not be eating well because they are fat. That is all the proof most people need, but it is not proof at all. Encouraging disordered eating among fat people, however, will have lasting negative effects long after the diet had ended. Firstly, one thing diets have been shown to be quite good at is putting on weight. While being fat is a questionable health risk at best, the weight cycling associated with chronic dieters is a major health risk and could indeed by the culprit of much of the health risks observed in fat people. It is something never controlled for in studies even though its been shown to be unhealthy even for people whose cycle ends up with them being thin. Also, the disordered eating of restrictive dieting wrecks a person’s relationship with food. The obsessive stigmatizing of foods as good or bad has a profoundly detrimental psychological effect.
Contrary to what one my thing given the posturing of the middle-grounders, Fat Acceptance is not about promoting poor health. Quite the opposite. While I would agree that it shouldn’t matter why a person is fat to argue against the vicious discrimination against fat people, that is no reason to concede a point we are right about. And the fact is, the health care of fat people in this country is deplorable. For all the “smoking’s just as bad, trust me” whining, I doubt smokers get treated the way fat people do by medical professionals. I’m sure smokers are very outraged at being told the risks of smoking at an annual physical, but what fat people experience is having everything that goes wrong with our bodies blamed on our weight. Many fat people find it impossible to have their health concerns addressed and they just give up. Imagine if the only diagnosis you ever got was “its because you’re a smoker, stop.” Imagine that being all a doctor cared about. Imagine being pressured by your doctor to undergo a risky procedure that will impair your quality of life, cut decades off your life expectancy, and give you a 1 in 20 chance of dieing in the first year. Because I’m pretty sure I don’t need to be a smoker to know that’s not happening.
The medical community has failed fat people with the obsession with weight. We need to approach the health of fat people in new and respectful ways that might actually work. A first step would be promoting the proven success of healthy and moderate eating paired with moderate and achievable activity. This will improve the health of all people greatly and should be the focus of health discussions. Not as a means of weight loss, but for their own good purpose.
None wrote:
There is a difference between “completely irrelevant to health” and “does not necessarily imply poor health”. It is very irritating that when people pointing out size discrimination talk about health, many people seem to react as if they think the fat activists are trying to say that the two issues had nothing to do with each other. To be clear, when fat activists call for a separation between the ideas of fat and health, and they call for a rejection of the automatic assumption “fat=unhealthy”, that does not imply anything in particular about what they do think the relationship between the two concepts is, other than they don’t think fat is 100% correlated to ill health.
So what if some difference gets forgotten? Muscles develop to carry some of the load, which does make the difference smaller than you might think. As for myself, I’m sure if someone suddenly attached helium balloons to me I’d notice a difference, but in terms of what I can actually do? I find very little difference whatsoever between capabilities at weights differing by 100lbs. Running for a bus was just as possible at both weights, swimming lots of lengths, cycling speed pretty similar, for about 98% of activities, there really is very little difference.
Firstly, please note that most thin people don’t fall into the the modest healthy diet + exercise category either.
Secondly, so? That doesn’t justify discrimination against fat people? Don’t dish out prejudice and assumptions to fat people that you don’t dish out to thin people who lead similar lifestyles.
Oh yes, we fat people just love the assumptions that our definition of exercise is much feebler than everyone else’s. Don’t forget the ones about the remote control and the refridgerator.
Of course you haven’t. Fat people have lots of reasons to avoid such places. Seeing lots of slim bodies in spandex, being the target of fatphobic comments, exercise sessions which require too high a strength-to-body-weight ratio, all those don’t help fat people to be there.
So you haven’t seen the likes of me, who tend to avoid such gyms and find more fun places to hang out and exercise. Aqua aerobics is a place I’ve found lots of fat people. I’ve found some fat people doing things like racquet sports, where the partial emphasis on racquet skills gives fat people a better chance to compete. And YES, some of them do indeed do what you might call serious attempts to exercise.
Oh lovely, derision. Unless you are in that person’s body, you have NO IDEA how much effort it takes to do that. I’m not saying it’s a lot. I’m not saying it’s a little. I’m saying you can’t judge. It infuriates me sometimes, when I’m cycling up a hill, putting in a heck of a lot of effort, legs going like the clappers using lots of strength, and someone else is going up with their legs just idly spinning round, faster than me. The point is that it is different amounts of energy that fat people use.
Nobody is trying to claim that all fat people are eating perfectly according to the lifestyle police. But I will repeat again: if you aren’t condemning thin people with a particular lifestyle, then you have no right to condemn a fat person with the same lifestyle.
It’s not a clear sign of anything whatsoever. It is NOT KNOWN why people are becoming fatter. Here in the UK we have statistics showing that people tend to eat less than they did in years past, and there are certainly a lot more gyms and exercise opportunities available than there used to be.
We don’t know. Can’t be that much due to genetics, must be something in the environment, but it is not clear what. The media try to push the assumptions of laziness but it’s far from clear to what extent, if any, that is the answer (studies have shown). Could be something entirely different we haven’t thought of yet.
But why tie the two so fiercely together. So someone makes some lifestyle changes, and improves their health. And as a side-effect, their weight changes. So WHAT? Their HEALTH improved. Who gives a flying banana what the number on the scale says when their HEALTH improved?
Can we drop the stereotype of someone eating fast food and not exercising and being fat, please? If you are determined to use stereotypes, the correct stereotype of the non-exercising fast food eater is a young thin male.
Ok, next question: how do I get people to stop making assumptions about me that I eat a lot and don’t exercise (neither true). THAT is what I am worried about! People want to deny me health care based on fat prejudice. Fat prejudice is THE biggest threat to my health that there is.
That is SO judgemental. You are judging lifestyles by appearances.
No, you wouldn’t. Running tends to be hard on the heavy body. The exercisers would a) be doing something else besides running, and b) they’d be doing it in secret so they don’t get ridiculed. HEY, WAIT! Maybe they are already doing it, not in public….
No, the real message should not be 3 either. Firstly you don’t have any justification for the vigour, as scientists vary on their opinions as to what sort of exercise is best. Secondly creating a “thou shalt” lifestyle police dictat isn’t a great idea either. What is better is support for 1) a good self-image, and 2) health maintenance and improvement goals which are feasible, effective and individual. HAES-based is good.
I’m not sure PCOS is that unknown anymore. I know several people who have and don’t believe I know a single fat woman who isn’t aware of it. I do fear, though, that many doctors are misleading women diagnosed with the condition. I have had friends be diagnosed with PCOS and told to lose weight to treat it. This is an absurd treatment as weight gain is a symptom of PCOS not a cause. Telling a person to lose weight is like telling a person who’s been shot in the head to take some asperin. Sure, their head hurts, but that’s not really the problem. Successful treatment of PCOS can result in one’s weight leveling out. Much like diabetes, another condition which causes weight gain by is often dealt with by orders to lose weight.
BStu-
For all the “smoking’s just as bad, trust me” whining, I doubt smokers get treated the way fat people do by medical professionals. I’m sure smokers are very outraged at being told the risks of smoking at an annual physical, but what fat people experience is having everything that goes wrong with our bodies blamed on our weight.
Totally disagree. Every mild cough, every cold, every time I complain about… well, just about anything, I get that lecture. Hell, I can be having a great day, feeling fine, and I’m still likely to get that lecture from some “well-meaning” busybody who wants to tell me all about how stupid I’m being. As for medical stuff, it depends a little on the doctor how annoying they make it, and I’ve started seeking out medical folks who understand that I don’t really want to hear it and that I’ll quit smoking when I’m good and damn well ready, not a moment before.
Ironically, we’ve swung right back around to one of the major points of this entry after a long while of sidetrack. And that’s about those pesky comparisons. I’m not going to say that being a smoker is just like being a fat person in terms of the crap we have to put up with, but yes, there are absolutely similar threads in these things. We both get told all the time “for our own good” that we are doing everything all wrong and that we’re disgusting, stupid, or a burden, if not all of the above.
Please don’t go on one of those “bias X is worse than bias Y” tangents, because none of it is acceptable.
Sharon — you make a lot of good points, particularly as to why I never see fat people in the gym.
I said:
To which you responded:
Something in the environment? Something entirely different? This doesn’t seem quite serious. It’s pretty obvious that over the past century, you’ve seen the invention of autos and the paving of roads and suburban sprawl and interstate highways and the rise of desk jobs (as opposed to farm jobs) and the rise of television and a bunch of other changes. Plus, people eat more food, a lot of which is more processed than ever. So this is not really a hard problem.
“So this is not really a hard problem. ”
So then why does it keep getting moralized?
Nona,
You still haven’t answered the very good question several people have raised here: why not attack the industries supporting an unhealthy American lifestyle that affects EVERYONE? If your goal is a healthier society, attacking individuals is totally counterproductive. Why is it so important to get a “mea culpa” from the fat people?
MG
Spit –
I also agree with you about the smoking thing. People jumping on smokers is qualitatively a lot like people jumping on the fat. It’s always easier to point the finger at someone who struggles with something that you don’t have to struggle with.
I’m a non-smoker, and I can’t stand being around cigarette smoke. There is a part of me that would be relieved to see smoking banned in all public places, simply because I could then comfortably go to bars, etc. But I would never in a million years lecture someone about smoking, because I KNOW IT WOULDN’T HELP THEM. If they say “I want to quit smoking,” I will say, “good for you; let me know if I can do anything to help.” But even then, I wouldn’t start going on about how much better it is not to be a smoker. That would be mean.
In addition, I think illegalizing smoking without destroying the evil tobacco industry (and it IS evil – just plain evil) would be cruel and, again, counterproductive. You can’t wipe out smoking by attacking smokers – you need to go after the people who are pushing the stuff.
Ditto “health.” If you want a healthy America, get rid of the pushers – get people out of their cars – create incentives for healthy living and apply them to EVERYONE – but don’t pick on fat people. If you don’t care that it’s mean spirited, can you at least care that it isn’t productive?
MG
The difference I was talking about–although I agree with this one–is the sexualized/physical difference. I mean, I know people who don’t date smokers, and I know people who think that smoking and its attendant physical effects are a turn-off, but that dislike is nowhere near as pervasive or as vituperative as the revulsion towards fat bodies.
You still haven’t answered the very good question several people have raised here: why not attack the industries supporting an unhealthy American lifestyle that affects EVERYONE? If your goal is a healthier society, attacking individuals is totally counterproductive. Why is it so important to get a “mea culpa” from the fat people?
Attack the industries? I do! I join with you in that cause. If that’s your cause, that is — I’ve been getting the feeling that some of the folks here are in such a defensive posture that they would defend those “industries” rather than admit that anything that makes people fat might be unhealthy.
And I”m not attacking individuals. I apologize if I said anything that comes across that way. My main point is that while fatness isn’t bad or unhealthy in and of itself, the fact that so many Americans are fat is an indicator that a lot of people are unhealthy, and that America is doing something (or a bunch of things) seriously wrong, from its food industries, to the way that cities are laid out, to the rise of television, etc., etc.
Yes, thin people can be unhealthy too — that’s a totally obvious point. And yes, it is shameful to blame fat people as individuals. But still, look at more primitive societies, like the ones that humans have lived in for hundreds of thousands of years — where practically no one is obese. Why are Americans different? It can’t be because we all have genetic diseases. To me, it seems very clear that that the American lifestyle results in lots of people eating unhealthy food, lots of people sitting all day long, and lots of people eating way too much.
Hi Piny,
I agree there’s a dimension to fat loathing (especially of women) that goes far beyond smoker loathing; the point I was trying to make is that the same conscious superiority comes in to play with non-smokers criticizing smokers as with thin criticizing fat. It’s a question of “I don’t have a problem with this, and because you do, I am superior to you.” The criticisms are always leveled in the guise of “helpfulness” and a desire for the objects’ health, but the actual, gut-level fuel behind it is more often a desire to distance oneself from the stigmatized group, and more firmly entrench oneself in the acceptable category. Also, like people who look for reasons to blame rape on the victim, blaming fat people (or anyone who struggles with any socially inacceptable quality) for their own stigma makes the blamer feel safer from suffering the same fate.
MG
Nona,
Yes, but do you not see that the superior tack you are taking on this is rude and counterproductive? If you really want to effect the changes you mention, you need to take people’s feelings into account. Don’t jump on a thread on a fat activist’s web site and proceed to tear up the pea patch. For you to achieve the goals you claim to have, it is not important to get fat people to admit how lazy we are, or that we, particularly are unhealthy, or most unhealthy, or the biggest indicator of American unhealth.
MG
Mary Garden writes:
I’m not Nona, but every time I see something like this I have an almost uncontrollable urge to hurl —
Industries can “support” an unhealthy American lifestyle all they want. That doesn’t mean any of us have to buy the products they are pushing. No one is forcing people to buy the Double Meat and Cheese Burger from Mega Burgers, Inc. No one is forcing anyone to drink the entire 48oz processed corn sweetner, artificial flavoring and coloring drink that comes with it, or the deep fat fried sliced up 1lb potato worth of french fries. Companies sell these products because consumers buy them.
We are selling ourselves short each time we blame “industry” because capitalism has a very effective feedback cycle built into it — if people don’t buy it, companies won’t make it. But, in the States at least, “bigger is better” still seems to reign supreme even if “bigger” has long since become obscenely huge. Some of us are old enough to remember when Coke® came in a 6 1/2 oz bottle for a dime and we thought that was plenty. Now, it comes in a 20 oz bottle and people feel compelled to drink the entire thing in one go. And the 32 oz 7-Eleven “Big Gulp” that was once ridiculed as entirely too big is now dwarfed by 64 and 80 ounce drinks whose entire appeal to the consumer was that they were bigger than the “Big Gulp”.
At the same time, FCH, diet foods and exercise have become more common than ever before. So I don’t think a simple “big gulps have become bigger, that’s why Americans are fatter” idea holds water. (Not that you’re necessarily saying that).
I’d like to remind everyone that whether or not Nona has been rude isn’t really a legitimate topic on “Alas” (you can read the moderation guidelines here).
Compared to many folks who show up to give weight-loss lectures, Nona has been relatively nice and willing to engage in dialog. And it’s not easy being the minority voice on a thread where so many disagree so strongly. So please, ease up on her a little.
You’re doing what a lot of weight-loss advocates do, which is asking for a very forgiving measure of “success.”
Yes, if I did what you suggest, I’d lose ten pounds. Maybe 20. Tell me, if you saw me on the street three years from now, 10 or 20 pounds lighter – so I weighed about 300 pounds – would you say “there’s someone who eats healthy and exercise,” or would you assume that I gorging on Big Macs every day?
Either you have to admit that someone being fat tells you nothing about thier lifestyle and diet, or you have to say that the measure of “success” for weight-loss diets should be to turn fat people into non-fat people.
But your current position – saying that someone being fat tells you something about their lifestyle and diet, but at the same time claiming that if people “lose any weight” under a weight-loss diet (WLD), then the WLD should be seen as one that works – is trying to have it both ways.
To answer your question, no weight loss diet EVER has been shown to in a randomized trial published by a legitimate peer-reviewed journal, to turn the majority of fat people into non-fat people over the long term. Not the diet you’re suggesting; not any diet. Not even for those who stick to it. Maybe they’re a bit thinner, and surely if they weren’t healthy before, they’re probably healthier; but most are still fat people. The typical weight loss for scientific studies of diets, for those who stick with it, seems to be about 7-15 pounds.
At the same time, I think you’re wrong, for reasons others have alluded to, to say that people who try the diet but aren’t able to stick to it should be dismissed from consideration. If the vast majority of patients prescribed a treatment are unable to stick with the treatment over the long term, then objectively that should be considered when judging how successful the treatment is.
Suppose I invent a new kind of hearing aid. In my randomized trial study, the people who continue using it experience a 90% reduction in hearing loss; but 90% of people in the trial dropped out because they found my hearing aid design so incredibly uncomfortable that they couldn’t keep on wearing it. In your view, would I be justified in just publishing the result that my new hearing aid led to a 90% reduction in hearing loss; or am I ethically required to report that the majority of patients found themselves unable to stick with using my hearing aid? If you were an audiologist considering what kind of hearing aid to recommend to a patient, do you think the fact that nearly all patients found the new hearing aid impossible to stick with would be a relevant factor to consider, or is it a factor that can be ignored?
Spit, have you ever had a doctor, on sight with no knowledge of your smoking habits not with any physical examination, suggest that you undergo a treatment for smokers that results in death for one in 20 patients in the first year? You have been repeatedly trying to play the game of equalizing discrimination. Rather than drawing comparisons of manner of treatment, you have expressly and repeatedly rejected such an approach to specifically engage in the game of who gets to be oppressed most. Given that you now chastize me for that, I suspect your purpose was malicious and with the specific intent of devaluing fat people, so I really see no point in engaging with you on this. Just as it woul be absurd for a fat person to complain that they have been historically as oppressed as blacks or gays (not a judgement even in implicit in any of the parallels drawn in this thread or anywhere I’ve ever seen), it is equally inappropriate for you to make the same play as smokers. Do not pretend you have only pointed out similarities in the treatment. You have repeatedly suggested quite specifically that smokers have it “just as bad”. You entered into the game of measuring the value of biases. Don’t claim now that your efforts to equalize the bias against smokers and that against fat people is somehow not precisely what it was.
I get heavier when I eat more and am less active
I eat more and am less active when I’m stressed/unhappy.
I gained a lot of weight through my stressful puberty. I started losing it in high school as I got more comfortable in my body and in my identity.
I started gaining it again when my mother was diagnosed with breast cancer.
Some time after she died I started losing it.
Then started gaining again when my stepmother was diagnosed with Pick’s Disease, an interesting and horrible variant on Alzheimer’s, and I became responsible for her.
Hey, people, give me back my family and I guarantee you I will fitter and skinnier. BECAUSE I will be happier.
Since that’s not an option, I’m trying to rebuild the happy in other ways, and it seems to me that the last thing I need for that process is to feel guilty, stressed, and gross *about* the weight I’ve gained from the guilt and stress.
And you know what… if I could just be happier again, I don’t think I’d really mind about the weight either.
Hmm, I wonder, how many ‘extra’ pounds would people take in exchange for happiness? What about, in order to have a loved one restored?
Anyway, this is only my own experience, but I think that in addition to all the physical factors in weight (and those are in play for me as well, some people react to stress by losing weight, and no one in my family is skinny (well, without a lot of pain)), I think there are emotional factors that come into play for me and probably some others as well.
But in the end, if I’m self medicating with food instead of eating disorders, harmful narcotics, cutting, self-destructiveness, violence/outward destructiveness, etc, I think I’m not behind in the game. *Sure*, if I could manage to exercise, I’m sure it would be good for my mood (sometimes I can), and I guess we’d all like to believe that we’re functioning in absolutely the best possible way, but who’s to tell me that if I’m not at best, I’m not okay!
Nona, you are say that you are not attacking individuals, but when you say that the existance of fat people is proof, in and of itself, of major problems in our nation, what is it that you think you’re doing? Look, I know you don’t think you’re insulting individuals, but how are those fat individuals you say are proof of some major problem supposed to take that? Your approach is all too common, but it shows no respect for fat individuals. I know a lot of well-meaning people who share your attitude but what you’re all doing is failing to see the disconnect in your arguement. You say you have no problem with individual fat people, but collectively we are a grave and awful problem. This is liberal fat hatred through and through. Lip service is given to blaming corporations and what not, but you are still applying an extreme and negative stigma on our lives. Doing it collectively makes little difference. Saying that I’m an okay fat person doesn’t make me feel very good because I know all of the other fat people are still labeled as bad by your world-view.
If your concern is with health, then keep fat out of it. Or at least don’t claim to say two things at once. What you are saying is, “Its not good to say that fat is unhealthy. Fat, however, is unhealthy”. Stigmatizing fat has ruled the day for decades, and by your own observation people seem to only be fatter. Perhaps there is something to that. Perhaps diets are really unsustainable as many here have suggest and as the data certainly confirms. Dieting has increased dramatically in the last few decades, especially by encroaching on younger and younger individuals. Given that 90% of diets result in the dieter weighing more than when they started, and thinner and thinner people are being aggressively targeted by the diet industry, it is hardly unreasonable to suggest that the leading cause of fatness is not any presumed deficiency in the American lifestyle, but rather the predictable result of the treatment that is offered time and time again to fat people.
In reviewing this thread, I have come to the conclusion that I owe Spit an apology for characterizing his/her remarks on smoking as being in the manner of trying to equalize biases. I believe that was an over-reach on my part though I do still strongly take issue Spit’s suggestions and feel that was not unreasonable inference to draw from their remark that anti-smoker bias is “absolutely the same kind” as anti-fat bias, I stated that inference far more strongly than was warrented and I apologize for my zealous retort on those grounds.
I do still feel Spit’s behavior was an effort to engage in the gamesmanship of what bias is worse off, though more clearly in his/her aggressive interest in regarding the kind of bias smokers experience as equal to the kind that fat people experience. I do think this goes well past drawing a parallel or comparison and becomes an effort to place a value on “compeating” biases, especially with the dismissive “you can’t be smokers if you think that” tactic. While I was overstating things by suggesting Spit was trying to completely equalize the two biases, I do still object to Spit’s gamesmanship and subsequent accusation of gamesmanship over this.
BStu-
Look, I’m not going to get into a really massive parsing battle with you over this, and I find it a little amusing that you’re deciding to try to figure out my intent and call me on gamesmanship in what was, for me, a total side point in the first place.
I’d just as soon not drag things even further from the topic, but just let me quickly clarify:
I do not believe that anti-smoking and anti-fat bias are the same, or even share the same roots. I do believe, however, that the overt signs of the biases do frequently share an overly moralistic and condescending “for your own health” tone. Going back and reading exactly what I wrote, I would also like to point out that nowhere that I can find have I tried to play the “just as bad” card — feel free to correct me if you find somewhere I did this.
I do think this goes well past drawing a parallel or comparison and becomes an effort to place a value on “compeating” biases, especially with the dismissive “you can’t be smokers if you think that” tactic.
Gotcha, won’t try semi tongue-in-cheek responses on you.
Placing value on “competing” biases is, if you’ll please read everything I’ve written in this thread, something I personally am fundamentally against doing. That’s the whole point.
They’re not competing. They’re interacting, and sometimes moving in similar directions, and sometimes diverging completely.
Where I reacted viscerally badly to your initial 12:18 comment (sort of to me? Can’t tell) is where you characterized my side point discussing very briefly that I do think parallels can be drawn as a whiny gripe. It strikes me as more than a little problematic that we’re having a conversation on a topic in which all too often people are put down as simply whining about treatment that they deserve, to have the same argument levelled at another group. If you didn’t intend to come off that way, then I apologize for reacting in a mildly (very mildly, I’ll add) bitchy way.
At any rate, this is basically about nothing, so I’m moving on. We’ll have to agree to disagree on the actual substance of the thing.
What you did, Spit, was quite aggressively reject disagreement with you. In doing so, you also failed to repond to what is the core of the arguement that anti-smoker bias cannot rise to the level of anti-fat bias, which is what was first suggested and is the arguement you lept to defend, though I again admit I overreached in ascribing that attitude to you specifically. Simply put, a smoker doesn’t have to be known to be a smoker unless they wish it. That is a luxury which has a profound impact on the level and kind of treatment resulting from this bias, which was the crux of the arguement I and others made. Dismissively suggesting, as you did, that we cannot possibly know what we’re talking about for taking our position was implicitly an effort to play gamesmanship. Those who have talked about anti-fat bias have described it. We’ve made our case. We never resorted to the kind of “you’re not fat so you don’t know what you’re talking about” ploy that you trotted out.
The issue, and I’ll grant that you may not have been aware of this dynamic and I may have been overly sensitive on this point without explaining myself, is that these comparisons are usually drawn specifically for the intent of belittling fat people. I recognize that there is no cause to ascribe that motivation to you and I as such I was being too sensitive, but this a very common way opponents of fat people have tried to frame the arguement, and looking at the context of others in this thread, I do suspect at least some did have the intent of belittling fat people by drawing that comparison. The intent is to catagorize fatness as something one brings upon oneself by lumping it in with other health concerns that are directly self-inflicted to some clear degree. Its also not been uncommon to attempt to frame the discussion as fat acceptance being an analogue to Big Tobacco. I’m sure you can surmise that the intent is one quite hostile towards fat acceptance. These comparisons are a sensitive issue among those active in fat acceptance as they are often used as a club against us, and I will admit that the zealousness of my response was motivated by that more so than the context of your input.
Okay, I’ll parse away for a few minutes then.
you also failed to repond to what is the core of the arguement that anti-smoker bias cannot rise to the level of anti-fat bias, which is what was first suggested and is the arguement you lept to defend
The whole point for me is that there is no “rising to the level” or “lowering to the level” when what we’re getting at is people being assholes — in this case, in similar ways — to two groups of people. What -I- sensed myself “leaping to defend” was an argument that there are, in fact, parallels in that treatment — which is something that I do firmly believe. If I was read differently I apologize for that.
Simply put, a smoker doesn’t have to be known to be a smoker unless they wish it. That is a luxury which has a profound impact on the level and kind of treatment resulting from this bias, which was the crux of the arguement I and others made.
If you want to talk about sensitivities, this is one of mine. Because I can tell you that as a big queer, this same argument is made for why anti-gay bias is nowhere near the “level” of racial bias, say — this causes no end of problems not so much for me (because I’m really obviously queer) as for people like most of my girlfriends current and past, who had to consciously choose to perpetually come out. But that’s another whole tangent.
And my point isn’t that I want to argue whether they are or are not “just as bad” as each other, but rather than any argument that seeks to explain how bad one bias is by belittling the gravity of another just isn’t acceptable to me.
We never resorted to the kind of “you’re not fat so you don’t know what you’re talking about” ploy that you trotted out.
First off, I will repeat that I was being more than slightly tongue-in-cheek. Secondly, I think it’s probably a fair guess to make after reading statements that seem utterly out of line with everything I have experienced as a smoker, and everything regarding that I have ever discussed with other smokers. I personally think you’re taking that a little too seriously, but I apologize if it was taken as dismissive.
I agree with you on their intent. But I don’t think that their intent, and the viciousness with which they attack fat people, warrants simply pushing the condescending rudeness on to somebody else — whether my smoking is “directly self-inflicted” or no.
The really funny part of all of this, BTW, is that I’m generally not one of those smokers that constantly bitches about how put upon I am by all of the complaining/legislating about my habit that goes on (though I have started getting peeved at attempts here in CA to outlaw smoking in many outdoor areas, and not just near doors).
Amp writes:
Well … that’s no where near where I was going with that post! It was more like “Don’t blame industry because you’re the one who bought the damned thing, and if you’d just quit buying it, they’d just stop making it!”
FurryCatHerder (love the name, heh)-
On a level, I agree with you that as far as diet goes, people need to make decisions with an eye to their own well being. I also think that it’s reasonably difficult to get the information necessary to do that on a lot of levels, first off, and additionally it’s incredibly difficult to find reasonably mainstream food items that don’t, say, toss in a little high fructose corn syrup or hydrogenated veggie oil (which most reasonable consumers think is just like relatively healthy veggie oil, but it’s not) because these things have mass flavor appeal or are cheaper or a million other weird reasons.
Hell, even fast food ketchup has an absolutely astounding amount of sugar. Plenty of reasonable people don’t know that, though.
People need to pay attention, but they don’t make it easy even if you do.
Spit,
Thanks — it’s a great name :)
I was having this discussion just this morning with someone. His theory, which I agree with, is that we evolved in an environment of relative famine, so we’re genetically predisposed to crave fats, sugars and salt because those are three things that we historically lacked in our diets (and I don’t mean processed sugars, I mean fruit sugars and the like). So, goes his theory, now that food is plentiful, our cravings are working against us, and the food companies are exploiting the way our tastes work by adding … fats, sugars and salt to food to make it more appealing.
Like you, I’m upset at the amount of corn sugar added to food for no apparent reason. Catsup is just one really bizarre example because I like it for the tomatoe taste, not for the sugary syrup taste it’s evolved into.
What really bugs me tho is the number of truly bizarre ingredients that get added and why. Like carmine. Why do they have to add carmine to grapefruit juice?
I have a few food-related hobbies, that I won’t mention here due to stalkers, but they are made all the more difficult by all their weird food additives that are added for no other reason than marketing. Which is fine by me — I can’t use those products, so I buy products that don’t contain weird things.
Weight loss does not necessarily correlate with healthy eating and exercise; it’s not all about choice. My extremely fit but still fat dad still beats up on himself because he can’t lose weight or the body fat, and feels shame because of that; to me this indicates that the general message he gets from society is that he’s not doing enough. I don’t know how strangers act toward him, but I suspect that they’re much more likely to notice his stomach than the muscle he’s built up from years of cycling. And it hurts.
That said, Btsu said,
I agree with you that it’s been shown that fat people do not eat more than thin people, but are there any studies showing that fat people and thin people, in general, are eating the same way? I suspect that most people intuitively assume that people who eat more high-fat foods, relative to other foods, are likely to be heavier than people who eat less – and I would make that assumption too; if you have evidence to the contrary, could you provide a reference? (this is not snark; I haven’t heard anything about this and I’d love to read any studies that have looked at this); the same for exercise. Again, please stress “in general”; “body fat” does not equal ill-health, nor does it equal “eats a lot”, but high fat intake does correlate significantly with some health problems, and I do think that health care professionals need to respectfully offer interventions to people who are at risk, and they need some way to identify those people.
Body size (and BMI) will still be extremely bad short-hand for identifying people who are at risk for these health problems, whether or not there are any general group differences in how fat vs. thin people eat (from what I’ve read recently, we should just be using body fat percentage instead), but I want people who are at elevated risk for Type 2 diabetes and cardiovascular diseases to get a bit more early intervention (nutrition counselling, hooking them up with food share programs for those who don’t have access to much fresh produce, some kind of one-on-one physical training, maybe?) than simply advice to eat a healthy diet and exercise more. And if body fat correlates with high-fat intake, which correlates with these health problems, I do think it makes sense for health care professionals to point people with a high body fat percentage toward these interventions (and, obviously, that these interventions should actually exist).
I don’t think that the general public, or the media, has any business mocking any person or discriminating against them for their body size or implying that it’s all about will power or moral strength – and I do think it will require a big cultural shift in standards of beauty to change both of those tendencies. But is there any way for health care workers to guide people toward necessary life-style changes in a positive way?
An obvious one seems to involve not talking about losing weight – but to my knowledge, reducing body fat percentage is important. But stressing that still sounds moralizing to my ears.
In regard to stress and weight, there is evidence that carb consumption in essence medicates for the cortisol produced by stress. So it’s not just that the extra mashed potatoes or brownie taste good, they really do make you feel better. You are self-medicating without necessarily realizing that you are doing so. Carb consumption is also linked to seasonal affective disorder (SAD), a kind of depression brought on by lack of sunlight.
Likewise, thyroid conditions, while having some genetic factors, are very much driven/aggravated/worsened by stress, as is diabetes. It is not uncommon for someone to develop thryoid issues after a divorce, layoff, bankruptcy, etc. You may think your anxiety or depression is “just in your head” but in fact there is no such thing as JUST in your head. If it’s in your head, it’s in your body. A very high number of people experiencing depression are hypothyroid without knowing it, because therapists don’t even think to look into it. Sometimes hypothyroid people wonder if they are hypoglycemic or diabetic, because eating a little something does give them a temporary lift.
So I do in fact feel that the stress of 21st century America has a lot to do with obesity and overweight.
A few disjointed thoughts…..
Amp said, “…..She’s not right – after all, that legislator in Hawaii didn’t suggest that only female fat teachers should be weighed and “dealt with appropriately.”
But they did pick a predominantly female occupation, which is interesting. I’m not saying fat men do not experience discrimination, but I think the social threshold for fatness in men is much higher. I remember reading that more men are “overweight,” but I think most people would think more women are overweight. So I guess I’m saying I women at my size 14/16 is way more likely to be called fat than a man with a 38 inch waist. I remember the slightly overweight guys at my school would be told– are you a footbal player?
Sorry, if someone said this already. The thread got way ahead of me, so I haven’t kept up.
PS- I like the fat suit; black face comparision.
Because this discussion is very close to my heart, I’m just going to throw a few comments out there in no particular order:
In regards to the fat/fit issue: I felt like I needed to start being more physically active a few months ago–strictly for my mental and emotional health. I started taking a bellydance class, which was very hard for me because I have struggled with terrible body issues all of my life in spite of being very underweight for most of my adulthood–and getting lots of male attention for it. (Which is really sick, because I was very unhealthy being that underweight but men thought that was incredibly attractive…I don’t get that kind of attention now that I actually look like a “normal” female). Anyway, my bellydancing teacher was “fat.” She had a big belly, thick legs, and a short, sturdy, heavy body. And she ran circles around me fitness-wise. I–at a “normal” BMI– would be panting and gasping and sore as hell halfway through class while she hadn’t even broken a sweat. Bellydancing looks easy, but it’s not. You have to be extremely fit and discplined to dance well. And this woman had all those skinny-minnies in her class staggering out gasping for breath by the end of those classes. This is a woman who would be considered “overweight” and therefore “unhealthy”…but could kick ass in a physical challenge. So I do not buy the fat=unhealthy mindset at all. And frankly, I haven’t for a long time.
Most of my family is obese, or by medical standards, “overweight.” My mother’s side comes from sturdy Swedish farmer stock, and when I look at pictures of my many aunts, they are all sturdy, pear-shaped women. These were not lazy lie-abouts who ate Ruffles and watched TV all day–these were woman who did more physical labor in a day than I do in a week. They all lived into their 90’s. And yet, they were not thin. (Hmm….I wonder how being frail and thin would helped them survive?)
Because I was so afraid of being fat, I had a sort of low-level anorexia most of my life. I was never hospitalized, but I ate about 900 calories a day for 10 or 12 years, and at 5’9″ and 123 pounds, I truly believed I was monstrously fat. I began eating normally again several years ago and am now 155 pounds. And, I feel so much better. My anxiety attacks are gone, my suicidal depressions are gone, I can do kickboxing class three times a week without passing out, I’m more grounded emotionally, I have much fewer mood swings, I can acutally concetrate on something for a few minutes..however, on my last visit to a doctor for hormonal imbalance issues, I was told to lose weight to resolve the issue. I freaked out, started dieting again, and the last few weeks I have woken up in a cold, anxious sweat for hours, been overly-emotional and depressed, and my mood swings have returned full force.
So, I quit that, starting eating again when I was hungry (yes–HUNGRY–I never been an emotional eater)–and whaddya know? I feel better. My hormones are still totally out of whack–thanks, Doc!– but my nervous system is more stable.
So…thin=healthy? Think about it.
Sorry for taking close to 60 posts to reply Amp, busy with work and limited access to net restricts my posting at times.
In relation to religion, I think that it proberbly fits into the same catagory.
I will state for the record that I personally have no religion, and activly appose the introduction of religion into Hate Speach Laws here in the UK.
I would also like to agree, with those discribing the shit you get for being a smoker here in the UK, for some reason many people I don’t know feel its there buisness to tell me I am killing myself when I am having a quite cig!
We all should be allowed to do to our bodies what we wish to do to them, but this does not mean that we will not come into contact with people who feel it is OK to make moral judgements about our choices. Should these people be stopped from doing this, using the law?
That is a very tricky question and can take us down very Owellain (spelling?) lines. Where do we stop?
We are becoming health obsessed societies, UK TV is currently chock a block full of detox, healthy living, and self improvement programs. This does put pressure on those that don’t fit the ideal that society has created, I know this myself, I have made some very bad health choice’s in my life, and feel guilty if I see one of these shows, but I then realise that these people can screw themselves, I am who I am, if it becomes a real problem I have outs and things I can do to improve myself.
An example of this is that I have always been very fair skinned, and every summer I get people asking me if I am ill or that I need to get out in the sun more, it finally got too much for me and I went to a salon and had some sessions on the sun bed, got some colour, and felt great and confident.
Sorry for the second post.
I relation to men and women, something that I have been guilty of, is pointing out weight gain in my male friends, when I would never dream of doing it to my female friends. It is only after the fact do I realise that I proberbly hurt their feelings even though they joke about it.
I might say to a male mate who I have not seen for a while, who has put weight on “clearly livings good for you” while patting their gut!
Wrong I know, but I would usally get back “F**K off you skinny TW*T”
I would never dream of saying anything to my female friends if they have put weight on, they are kind of protected from the comments due to the fact that we know that weight is much more of a concern to a lot of females, compared to males.
silverside, I think you’ve hit the nail on the head. I also think a lack of sleep contributes to weight gain (I’ll look for a cite on this, but I heard a research report on the radio last fall about it), and the media has had numerous stories in the last year about a sleep-dep crisis in the U.S. So combine more pervasive and continuous stress with chronic sleep deprivation, and voila!
FCH-
I think that another important aspect of the whole “Americans are eating very poorly” thing is that we’re a far, far busier and more stressed out bunch of people than we have been in many times past, at least if you look at, say, changes in family structure and the like. Most of us do not have the time, individually or as families, to make reasonably healthy, well-balanced meals for ourselves regularly. What that means is that we’re largely at the mercy of either manufacturers of microwavable crap or we eat out a lot (meaning: cheap fast food, if you’re poor).
Here, though, we get into gender issues, too, because whenever the we-need-to-eat-better crew starts pining for those days of home cooked meals, I picture the housewife who had to stay home to make them all. And it’s simply naive to think that if we try to get back to that somebody-making-real-meals thing, that burden won’t fall hugely disproportionately on women. I can tell you anecdotally that as a sorta kinda transgender person, I get a lot of shit from some “friends” for making most of the food in our household when I’m supposedly “the guy”, even though I’m also the one with the most free time right now (as I’m an unemployed student). Now, I ignore that (and make mental notes that these “friends” are pretty stupid), but it means that there is still a strong social pressure on both women and men to divide their duties in a very gendered way, and a way that winds up, IMO, stifling everybody.
What I guess I’m trying to get at is that yes, Americans eat badly, and we need to take some responsibility for that as individuals — but as a social issue, there are so many things going on as factors in the problem that it’s never as simple as saying “we all need to eat better!”. What does “eating better” entail, and what are the social consequences? How do we get there as a society without pushing negative social consequences on to, say, women, or the poor, or whatever? It gets hard really quickly.
Here is the link I promised on sleep deprivation and weight gain.
Also, is it smokers who are stigmatized, or smoking?
Because the common theme here seems to be ‘you are fat, therefore you are doing X Y and Z bad things’. That is, stereotyping fat people as being lazy or gluttonous, etc., as opposed to stigmatizing, say, someone having a big meal. I know from personal experience in working at fast food places that when someone orders 10 double cheeseburgers, the first question from the ‘grill'(preparation area) is ‘are they fat’? If the answer is no, they are automatically assumed to be buying for others and therefore no further comment is made. If they ARE fat, then the disapproval and outright rudeness is incredible.
The defense for this is that fat people obviously are doing bad things to themselves, or they wouldn’t be fat, and that the criticizers are trying to help, or at least not to ‘enable’ the fat person. Yet when you you look at how it’s the fat that triggers the response, not the behaviors, it’s kinda hard line to swallow.
And still offtopic. On the fatsuit thing… it also reminds me how Hollywood was entirely white in the not so distant past, and therefore all nonwhite roles were played by whites. Fatsuits are keeping fat actors outta the movies. Down with ’em.
Also, is it smokers who are stigmatized, or smoking?
I think this is a very good point on some levels pointing to the many things that are different about the two stigmas. Certainly, with something like being a smoker, there is no way to seperate it from the behavior of smoking cigarettes — while being overweight and eating poorly or not exercising are… loosely connected at most. So having a social identity as “a fat person” seperate from individual behavior no doubt comes into the thing more than it does as a smoker.
As for fat suits keeping fat actors out of movies — it’s another interesting point, that I’ll have to think about, but much like “blackface” roles, I’m not sure that we’d be much better off if the ridiculously stereotyped fat dude were played by an actual fat actor. Maybe we would be, though, if that fat actor changed the tone of the humor from one of laughing at fat folks to laughing at the stereotypes themselves — here I’m thinking of queers in movies or TV, but that has quite a few other differences, too.
Mangala, I’m not aware of any study that correlates body with fat with any manner of food intake in a substantial way. I suspect if such a study existed, even if flawed, I would have at least seen it cited by the various fat bashers I’ve observed over the years. Thus, I would question why the burden of proof would be on proving that this isn’t true. Just because everyone assumes something is so doesn’t make it so, and that is what many in our society do.
The studies I have seen show that fat people and thin people overeat and undereat at similiar rates. I’ve also seen studies showing that fat people who did have poor diets do not lose substanial weight by correcting this. Indeed, its only shown to be an average of about 5 lbs. To be sure, a small handful do lose substantial weight, which likely skewers that extremely modest number as it is. Its just to say that many may well lose no weight at all. This obviously suggests that for a considerable majority of fat people, there is no reason to think that their eating habits are at all linked to their weight. At the least, it tells us that healthy eating will not produce weight loss (though it does produce considerable improvements in health).
It also should be pointed out that the most nefarious result of fat-suits is the reason they are employed. Its not simply to deny a job to a fat actor. Hollywood is doing very well on the count as it stands, especially with regard to female actors. The reason is that it suits a narative structure which exaults weight loss and gives it a redemtive quality. For that, you need to employ a fat suit so you can show the transformation into an acceptable state. If you stopped the fat drag, these stories would stop and that would be a benefit in and of itself.
I’m reminded of an episode of “House” from last season that focused on a fat girl as the main patient. Although the entire focus of the show was to object to using weight as a proof of immoral behavior as the girl’s weight was inappropriately blamed for her health concerns, the show couldn’t help but include a redemtive power of weight loss scene at the end. As such, a show which could have given a paycheck to a fat actress didn’t. All in service of a scene not only not in keeping with the message of this episode, but also disjointed from the show’s normal narative framework. Although the show was very positive in its portrayal of fat people and urging a genuine concern for our well-being, this felt undone by such an out-of-place final image. I would not object to having the disease be one that caused weight gain rather than weight being the cause, although that would obviously imply that weight loss would result from treatment. I did find the need to showcase the weight loss unnecessary, especially since it did necessitate a great deal of make-up costs. Hiring a thin actor was a very silly thing to do from an economic stand-point, which only shows how important they regarded the “transformative weight loss” scene. That’s something we lose when fat actors are hired, and something I’d happily do without.
Also, a fat actor would have control over their roles- a fat suit is never going to say ‘this joke is over the line’, or show discomfort on reading a script. An actor often would. And simply the fact of a line being directed at a fat _person_ rather than a person in a fat suit would change things, make it harder to dehumanize the character and easier to give respect. After all, it’s rather silly to say Fat Monica deserves respect, but roles are written _for_ actors all the time, and consideration given to their sensibilities.
The reason fat characters are crude stereotypes is precisely because they are created in and for a fat-free environment, just like the nastiest mysogynist jokes are told in an all male environment, or one where women are not a powerful presence. There are fat screenwriters, set workers, camera crewpeople, etc, but it’s the actors who are the centre, and fat actors are the exception, defined only by their fatness, just as queer characters are currently defined by their queerness. There’s not a whole lot of room for human qualities inwhat essentially are tokens and cameo appearances.
BStu- good points.
The weightloss-as-redemption thing is both really common and troubling to me. It reminds me, to make another really imperfect comparison, of the traditional-femininity-as-redemption thing that happens/ed to so many tomboyish female characters in movies/TV/books, which always chafed the crap out of me… not because I couldn’t imagine it as, for an individual character, an appropriate character development tool in some circumstances, but because there were absolutely no representations of tomboyish girls who weren’t in fact just secretly dying to put on the frilly dress and makeup at the end to go to the dance with The Cute Boy — who was invariably suddenly pleased and proud of his (previously unknown and disliked) Femme Beauty. Or whatever.
The parallel isn’t perfect, certainly; but while I can, as a writer, see possibilities for certain characters who would develop through weight loss or weight gain, I agree with you that as an overall social message, we get a simple Good People Lose Weight! thing rather than any actual complexity. The people doing this stuff are people who want to write simple messages for mass consumption, not write real characters in complex situations — and the results of that are telling and disturbing.
And Kerlyssa, you make some good points too… it would be harder for an audience to boil a fat character down into The Fat Character if the actor were actually, him/herself, fat, and it would change the dynamics in filming, too. I don’t think it would solve the problem, but it would be a step in the right direction.
Btsu, really good points.
Spit and Kerlyssa, I think a lot of fat actors – especially if they’re not that successful – will always be willing to do the anti-fat roles. Plus, many fat people have bought into our society’s fat is evil ideology.
However, I can think of at least one example of a fat actor doing exactly what you’re talking about. Camryn Manheim has described how, when she arrived to film the first episode of The Practice, the set dresser had put a big bowl of candy on her character’s desk. Manheim insisted it be removed. Also, when she was handed a big pastry to carry in a walk-and-talk scene with the actor playing her boss, she improvised the idea that the pastry was actually his breakfast, and she was carrying it because his hands were full of briefcase and papers (holding it up so he could take a bite from it, etc – it was a pretty funny moment, iirc).
Amp — Damn, good for her. If I’d been her, I’d have been sorely tempted to kick the person who handed me the pastry in the first place.
I also think there will probably not be a lack of fat actors willing to take those very negative roles, but I also think that the more fat actors we see getting out there, the more likely we are to at least see more diversity in the kinds of roles that are created or that fat actors are placed into. There are a lot of problems in getting that to happen.
Part of the problem that I see with the fat suit, for example, is that what it effectively does just by its existence is turn Being Fat into the entire focus of the character and the scene. Now, certainly that could continue to happen with actual fat actors — depending on how the scene is written — but it’s a lot harder, I think, for the audience to fall into when they’re not thinking “oh, that’s Skinny Actor X in a fat suit! Whoa!”.
No doubt, the more roles there likely those roles will break from traditional expectations. But as it stands, Amp is entirely right that most actors haven’t the luxury of saying no. Manheim was an exception in that she already had the job and it was a steady job, not a guest spot. She was also refusing requests from very minor people. Saying no to a set dresser or a prop master isn’t really that risky of a move.
There are a number of fat actresses who just can’t turn down work, even if most of it present themselves in a negative light. Hollywood’s current “It (fat) Girl” is Lindsey Hollister, whose roles have been very underwhelming from a fat acceptance standpoint. She is aware of the movement and by some acounts sympathetic towards it. But I can’t really blame her for taking a paycheck. She will be on tonight’s “My Name is Earl” and I’m optimistic that the show will not be overly fat hostile. The show is tough to predict. Although its not a mean show, a lot of fat hostility is expressed as if it were gentle and caring. But, at least we can know that she won’t likely be magically thin by the end of the half-hour. Still, much of the work she has to take involve playing prospective WLS patients and the like. She’s very charming and has a lot of talent, so I hope she finds something better, but it’s regretably a longshot for a fat woman. Heck, I can only think of 2 fat women to land spots on long-running series in recent memory, and both of them ended up dieting before the end of the show’s run.
Some others in the small pool of employable fat actresses are actually quite supportive of fat acceptance. Yet, they too will frequently be stuck taking on the role of the emfeebled fat person. Some even required to wear fat suits as casting directors were not aware that a 300lb woman is not virtually immobile as the role called for. I want them to get better roles, but I can’t bring myself to judge them for taking what is there.
Thanks for your answer, Btsu. I know (anecdotally) that people can eat the same foods in roughly the same amounts, and some will lose weight, some will gain, and some will stay the same, but hadn’t heard anything reliable one way or the other if that’s the case in general.