Above: Photo from a vigil held outside the house where the rape took place.
* If you want to follow this story, the blog to read is Justice 4 Two Sisters.
* 15 of the lacrosse team members have been arrested before – mostly minor stuff, like drinking.
* Duke has canceled all lacrosse games until there is a “clearer resolution.”
* From the blog Life In The Chocolate City:
One of the young ladies was held down, beaten, choked, raped and sodomized. The police reports say that in the house they found her fingernails, her make-up bag and her cellphone. This is certainly the customary items a woman leaves behind after entertaining a group of athletes right? It’s typical for a white guy to holler out “Thank your grandpa for my cotton shirt” while getting a lapdance from a Black woman right? Of course it isn’t. […]
Let’s just imagine that this assault took place at a predominately Black university and the victims were white, this would’ve been front page national news. […] It seems to me that this story has remained local to the North Carolina area. Their media is covering the story completely, but what about the rest of the nation. You can’t tell me that this isn’t newsworthy. It sure is newsworthy to African-Americans.
He’s right.
And regarding the details of the rape: These are mainstream, clean-cut, normal young American men. But look at the miles-deep reservoirs of woman-loathing and Black-loathing they were carrying around, just waiting for the right (wrong) situation.
Are all men like this? God no. But too many are – too many for it to be called abnormal. Cultural masculinity is a sickness that can turn men into monsters, and men in college sports are exposed to more of this virulent stuff than anyone. Do I excuse these rapists? No, of course not – they are responsible for what they’ve done, and I fervently hope they rot behind bars. But until our culture completely changes the way we construct masculinity, boys with their heart set on demonstrating their masculinity to their friends/teammates/frat brothers/whatever are going to keep on committing gang rapes.
Porn spam I routinely delete from comments sometimes uses phrases like “teen rape” and “black bitch gets raped” for a sales pitch. Why do they think they’ll make money with ads like that? Presumably, because they are making money with ads like that. Ordinary men, drawing on their own internal woman-loathing and Black-loathing, are plunking down money to masturbate to porn labeled “black bitch gets raped.” How awful is a culture in which that’s seen as no big deal?
Anyhow, more posts and articles worth reading:
I’ll put the race issue aside. This is also the result of universities allowing a negative athlete culture. More than a few studies have shown that athletes and frat boys are more likely to rape than other men, in part because all-male environments encourage aggressive and violent displays of manhood.
Q Grrl: Background From The Local Community
The town is pissed. Royally. And we’ve been pissed at the lacrosse team players and coach for the last ten years … even though the players obviously rotate out after 4 years. The team is notorious for it’s disruptive behavior in the neighborhoods around Duke. I lived across from the main lacrosse house for 7 years … and I can no longer count my calls to 911. In fact, a call I made a few years back resulted in 67 citations for underage drinking … the coach didn’t bat an eye. Similarly, I know that at one point, campus women were aware of sexual assault and harassment by lacrosse players. The house they lived in was repeatedly toilet papered … and once, upon seeing the black-clad women tp-ing the house I asked why. Their reply: to warn other undergraduate women that a woman had been assualted while at a lacrosse party.
Pinko Feminist Hellcat: Race, Entitlement and Rape
Don’t doubt for a minute that these women will be slut-baited. We already know what happens to women who are deemed sexual–they are sluts, whores, asking for it. They are suddenly trying to recapture lost virute. They are golddiggers trying to get cash on a false rape charge. Maybe they’ll be deemed crazy and therefore uncredible. Maybe the defense will decide that they really, really need their medical records and–ooops!–just release them accidentally on purpose. It’s happened before.
David Wright: Message to Duke Lacrosse Players
There are only two possibilities I see here. Either you come forward with the truth that reveals none of the criminal allegations actually happened or you come forward with the truth that at least with respect to some of your teammates, some or all of the allegations are true. To refuse to come forward with either version is to take the absolute worst course of action. If indeed that girl was raped, she is certainly some father’s little girl, and she could be some brother’s sister. If she was your sister, would you refuse to come forward with the truth to protect the “code” among your teammates?
(See David’s other posts on the subject, here and here).
Ruth Sheehan: Team’s Silence Is Sickening
Jill Hopman: Duke’s Lacrosse Players Still Defiantly Partying
Reflections of a Redhead: Break Room Conversation
Wouldn’t it be great to live in a country which had gotten beyond “well she deserved it” attitudes?
Dreams Into Lightning Pulls Together A Lot Of Interesting Connections
The iPinions Journal discusses how media coverage varies according to race.
Lacrosse has always been chock-full of the same types that later commit the white-collar crimes like Enron: rich, white kids whose only possession greater than their wealth is their cockiness and general sense of untouchability. The only difference between them and what they will become thirty years down the road is a total misunderstanding of consequences, a dangerous ingredient.
* * *
Backwards Assholes Read Newspaper Websites
The readers’ comments at the News Observer blog are pretty appalling. Some examples:
These men have been hanged in the court of public opinion, justice and liberty be damned. Witch hunts in days of yore are referenced by feminazis as examples of historical misogony. They don’t question their own actions however when they are the ones hunting for punishment.
Yes, because getting angry and demanding an investigation is exactly the same thing as burning innocent people to death.
But what do I know, I’m still assuming that if 3 actually are guilty, forty some other guys aren’t. But that’s crazy, men are evil, right?
I don’t think that men who watch and do nothing as three of their buddies drag an unwilling woman into a bathroom are innocent. I’m not sure what exactly it is that they’re guilty of, but I sure hope a courtroom soon finds out.
Praising protestors (who may have in fact been trespassing) for supporting a woman who may very well have been breaking the law (in working for an escort service) due to her allegations that have NOT been proven to be true is shoddy writing, no matter if the writer is a reporter or a columnist.
Yes, trespassing; that’s what we should be focusing on here. That, and laws broken by the victim.
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Just a comment about coverage – I think it’ll be a bigger national story than “Chocolate City” claims. It’s the second story on the radio news this morning in the Boston area. It was covered in the first 5 minutes of the 11 o’clock TV news last night. I think it’s early to judge what the national coverage will be. Check the evening news tonight and see where it plays.
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Amen! What a great roundup! We really have to keep up the pressure on this and bloggers have a special role. People in Durham can go to the protests but us bloggers should be standing in virtual solidarity. Thanks for compling all this info!
“masculinity is a sickness” I was with you up to that, and for most of the way after that. You’d mis-defining masculinity to mean “male aggression”.
Femininity isn’t wearing dresses, masculinity isn’t throwing a football. Femininity is being female, masculinity is being male.
It’s not the sports themselves that make people violent, it’s the way people treat them because they engage in sports. They believe they are better than other people because they are treated as such. Take away that feeling of impunity and, sports or no, people will behave.
It was on my local news (Norfolk, VA), and also on the Today Show this morning.
Hey Amp, Can you add the link to Anthony Hall’s website? He is a regular poster on my blog and he is the first person to bring up this issue of “wilding.” Here is the link.
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I think “masculinity is a sickness” should be changed to “cultural masculinity is a sickness”, since, obviously, biological masculinity isn’t a sickness.
Good idea, thank you. I’ve made the change.
And Rachel, I’ve added a link to iPinion Journal – thanks for pointing that out to me.
What Soullite said. I’ve never heard anyone who wasn’t a feminist or a rapper express a conception of masculinity that centers around dominating and abusing women. Insofar as the conceptions of masculinity to which I’ve been exposed relate to women, they involve protecting them and treating them with respect. I’m sure someone here will find something objectionable about that, but it’s certainly not in the same category as what you’re talking about.
Regarding spam and rape porn, I don’t think you can draw too broad a conclusion based on what people are trying to sell via spam. Yes, the fact that you see spam advertising rape porn suggests that there are people out there who are interested in that sort of thing. But I also see spam for porn involvings “hot moms.” Does that mean that our culture isn’t as “youth-obsessed” as feminists like to say it is? Spam provides a skewed representation of consumer desires, because it caters to less intelligent consumers and to those who may be unable to pursue those desires through traditional channels.
I’ve never heard anyone who wasn’t a feminist or a rapper express a conception of masculinity that centers around dominating and abusing women.
Then you have led a very sheltered life. I have heard the concept of masculinity centering around dominating women (among other things) for as long as I can remember. Certainly since at least middle school. The concept of the “man of the house” as the one in charge is an example of what I’m talking about. Constant derogatory references to & about women would be another example. TV & the movies are full of the concept of masculinity as domination of women. In an adventure flick, who is more likely to need rescuing by our hero (who is almost always a man)? Is the person that she needs rescuing from usually a man or a woman? What message do you think that this gives about masculinity in US culture?
I obviously spent a good deal of time thinking about this last night. This will sound contentious, but is not meant to be… I really feel that her race, although evident, is circumstantial to the crime/rape. She was targeted because she is female, a female these men purchased to perform certain sexually titilating acts. If she hadn’t been black, the only thing that would have changed was the slurs these men used to attack her. I know this from personal experience — a night invovling repeated calls to the police on my part to quell an out of control party resulted in my being threatened by lacrosse team members [the one man yelled: “I’m 100 lbs heavier than you Dyke and I don’t have a problem kicking the shit out of you.”] *
My point being, the culture that these men are living in and creating will do whatever is necessary to keep their level of privilege alive and thriving. These are young men with enough money to own their own Hummer’s or Jeeps or the current SUV de jour. The have enough money that they can rack up a year’s worth of parking tickets (at $75) a pop) instead of going downtown to purchase a parking pass for $5. They have enough money to host keg parties 1-2, sometimes 3 times a week. For hundreds of students.
I keep hearing Univ. officials saying that there are two completely different stories about what happened that night. These statements, coupled with the team member’s silence, makes me think that the defense that they are going to lodge is that they were under the belief that these two women were not merely dancers, but were in fact prostitutes who services they are already purchased and to which they had a certain financial right. The men know this is illegal, but that’s also why they so freely copped to serving alcohol to underage students… they want to be viewed as the ernest, yet slightly drunk students whose biggest error was in illegally hiring “prostitutes” — which in the end will be viewed as college-boy high jinx, probably quite similar to the one’s their fathers made, and probably quite similar to the one’s made by their defense attorneys. These men/boys study hard, the play hard, and they party hard — and they think that this earns them a certain right to buy the services of women, be they dancers or maids (yes, they have maid services clean up after them). These boys/men are also our future bankers, lawyers, and CEO’s — and they know it. They also already know that the money that their fathers have will keep them safe — even if convicted.
something weird’s going on with that link to Ipinions. It’s redirecting to microsoft.com ???
[Whoops! Thanks for pointing that out. Error fixed. –Amp]
“But until our culture completely changes the way we construct masculinity, boys with their heart set on demonstrating their masculinity to their friends/teammates/frat brothers/whatever are going to keep on committing gang rapes.”
When the biblical standards of conduct for men (serve first not be served, come into authority through elevating others not through force, protect women and orphans not use or benefit from them, love others more than yourself ) stopped being taught and expected and instead we decided to embrace the great glorification of the individual, we were doomed to such behavior escalating. Feminism’s and human secularism’s messages of individualism and freedom, while positive in so many ways, also contribute to the decay of a moral center for society. Individuals invent their own morality without something common to rally around, and without a standard, young men are not taught or instructed in the way they should behave. They are expected to discover it for themselves. So we release unbridled, hormone ridden, me-centric boys into our midst and we end up with this type of result. Boys identify with and imitate the most powerful men they see (movie characters treating women badly, rappers talking derogatorily about women, etc.) because they aren’t being told that those words and attitude are wrong and violate the community standards and expectations placed on men. We all have a hand in this.
Look but don’t touch is a learned behavior. The impulse is quite the opposite.
Collective agreement on the “don’t touch” concept is essential to the opportunity for women to stroll around scantily clad (or naked) without fear of it being interpreted as consent to more.
Some folks are confused, in our trial and error discovery process, about consent that accompanies even something as simple as acceptance of a dinner date . . . the exotic dancer though is at the greatest risk of being the victim of misunderstood societal roles.
We are still animals, which is an amoral truth. A vigorous prosecution could be a good exercise, as a political and public demonstration of civilized gender roles to a wider audience (local and abroad). Those boys are toast.
note: “[C]ultural masculinity” contains ambiguities, it does not directly point exclusively to sickness. Girls are competitive too, and I would not want that to be squashed as a sickness.
I sure hope you plan to expand and defend this claim.
By golly you’re right. Men never raped wome before we got all uppity and demanded that we be treated as individuals equal to the individuality that men are already treated with. We were so much safer barefoot, pregnant and cookin’ some man his evening slop.
Moral center’s change all.the.fuckin.time.
Treating another human being as a human being is about as simplistic and central a moral code as you will find. Expanding that treatment to women, apparently, requires another “special” moral code.
Damn those feminists.
Mr from MN: I want to know how stupid you think these Duke University undergrads are if you think they are incapable of making decent, moral decisions on their own without scapegoating the politics of equality. Are you saying these men are the moral equivalents of pre-pubescent boys? Boys who only behave if Mommy is behaving too?
Get real.
Thanks for the link, and thanks to all for your involvement on this.
yeah, i guess the usual crap defending the men is to be expected. i choose instead to be encouraged by the larger volume of the outcry so far. i first saw this reported here in a post that predicted the case would be totally suppressed. i have been heartened to see that has not been the case so far.
the smoking gun has a police affadavit on the incident:
first of all, BARF.
second of all, i’d venture to guess that made some noise. i’d venture to guess the bathroom was occupied for 30 minutes during a kegger. i’d venture to guess no one at a kegger doesn’t wonder wtf is up when the bathroom is occupied for 30 minutes. i’d venture to say that everyone at that party was complicit, even if they didn’t commit the crime.
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Q Grrl –
To criticize society moving toward a me-first standard does not equate to calling feminists uppity. But every socially transforming movement contributes both positive and negative things. As a Christian I can see tons and tons of negatives from the forward push of my belief system in the world in contrast what I can point to as positives.
Of course there have been criminals and rapists throghout history regardless of what moral code was commonplace. But the difference is there is no common moral code now. You can say it’s that humans should treat eachother well and respect eachother and blah, blah, blah…but that’s your idea, not one society embraces. The last one this country had was Christianity, and it had some pretty strong ideas as well as penalties a whole lot worse than prison time (hell for instance) as an added deterrant to harming others – men or women. Now certainly trustworthy rape statistics are not available from early in this century because women did not report rapes. But other crimes of violence like murder and assault were much much lower when there was a shared central moral code. The murder rate in the US was 1 in 100k citizens in 1900. in 2000 it was 91 in 100k. I would posit it likely that rape has followed a similar path as it too is a crime of violence.
I think these boys have never been taught to respect humanity. When one views an individual as created by God, they take on a lot more worth than when one looks at them as a pile of chemicals – an equal pile, fine, but still a pile. Take a me-first trained, priveledged kid at a great school on an elite sport and you’ve got someone who society has been affirming for 20 years despite clearly being pondscum. We got a broken system. These guys are just living it out.
http://christianparty.net/prison.htm
Source for my stats
Mr., I think there’s some truth in your approach.
But your supporting site is, um, less than supportive. When I see a statistical site that tells me that “Up to 470,536 of the 470,000 American men now in prison for rape may have been falsely accused”, I tend to think that the people writing it are either nuts or sloppy.
Neither one is reassuring.
I commend you on your amazing psychic abilities. Having been to more than a few frat/sorority parties in my life, I would assume 90% of the people there haven’t a clue what happened except through rumors afterwards.
This is a big house, and believe it or not most of the attendees were probably off talking to someone with a drink in their hand trying to hook up.
There are probably a dozen people who have any actual firsthand information about what happened when the girl returned, and those people are absolute scum for not coming forward with that info, even anonymously.
Let’s not indict every person who happened to be in the house because they didn’t conduct a thorough investigation of why one bathroom was occupied for a long time.
David Wright’s posts are wonderful.
You see, I used to live on Long Island. And, from looking at the names and pictures David posted, I realized that I know some of these boys.
Which just confirms what I’ve always believed about rape and rapists: that you can’t dismiss it as the work of “animals” or “monsters,” because it’s People Just Like Us who do it. How much do we have to see before we realize that regular people are capable of horrific crimes? Particularly a crime like rape, which is sanctioned by the culture.
David’s catching heat for posting the pictures and blaming not just the young men but their parents and communities. IMO he is absolutely 100% right. Rape is a cultural crime, and until we realize that we’re never going to be able to fight it.
yeah, THOSE are reliable stats, Minnesota.
Should’ve known you’d be talking about this issue! Thanks for the mention and the additional links.
http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/glance/hmrt.htm
I distanced myself form the rape stats in my post. You want more sites supporting the murder rate stat I quoted, here you go. This one from the US Dept of Justice (which is the stat noted on that other page).
No what say you?
Does anyone think that all 40+ suspects in the case are atheists? Agnostics? Or are they representative of the majority of the country and mostly Christian?
Don’t blame a lack of religion for crime. We’re one of the most religious countries among developed/first world/ whatever your preferred term nations.
Christians aren’t perfect– they just believe they are forgiven. Which can lead to some pretty interesting rationalizations.
I say that during what you would probably see as the golden era of American Christianity, good Christians took their kids to attend lynchings. They thought of it as a fun outing. They packed a picnic and brought their tiny children to watch black men and women being tortured to death, and then they took souvenir photos with the corpses. They made these photos into postcards and sent them to their friends. And the next Sunday, they went to church with clear consciences. They did not see any contradiction between being a Christian and taking pleasure in watching people being tortured and killed.
A hundred years ago, a black woman who was gang-raped by wealthy white college students would have known better than to call the police. She would have known better than to tell her father, because he would be powerless to do anything about it, and if he tried, he would face terrible violence. She would have suffered in silence, because the white Christians who ran towns like Durham set up a system in which black women were totally vulnerable and in which white men considered it their privilege to take advantage of that vulnerability.
I have no idea whether they are religious, but many of them were educated at Christian high schools. Two of them went to the Covenant School, the motto of which is “academic excellence under the sovereignty of God.” Five went to the Delbarton School. According to its webpage: “The School is administered by the Roman Catholic Benedictine monks of St. Mary’s Abbey and is rooted in the values of the Christian community and in the monastic tradition of a strong liberal arts education.” One went to Georgetown Prep, which bills itself as “the nation’s oldest Jesuit school and the only Jesuit boarding school.” Others went to schools called “All Saints Catholic,” “Episcopal,” “St. Christopher’s” and “St. Mark’s.”
Christianity does not deter rape, and it does not innoculate people against racism. I understand that you want the country to become more Christian, but it’s dishonest and disrespectful to pretend that it has anything to do with this case. It suggests to me that you see this horrible crime as just another opportunity to pursue your own, unrelated agenda. And you’ll have to forgive me if I find that kind of inexcusable.
The house on Buchanon where the rape occured is not a big house. I would guess less than 1300 square feet. The other Lacrosse team houses are big, but not this one. 30+ party goes in this particular house would make it nigh impossible for someone to not see or hear anything. A direct neighbor to the house called in a noise complaint to 911 b/c some party goes were repeatedly banging a basketball against the side of the house for roughly 20 minutes at the time that the rape occurred. Doesn’t sound like coincidence to me.
If you mean by hooking up with each other, then maybe. I doubt that there were many women at the party — if there had been, there wouldn’t have been exotic dancers and the men wouldn’t have worked so hard to get the dancers to return to the house. Most lacrosse parties in this town are highly homosocial — and once the newness of partying wears off for the incoming freshmen, few women attend lacrosse parties at all. There might be a rough ratio of 1:10. *
*No, I’m not psychic; I’ve observed these parties first hand for over 7 years.
Mr. from Minnesota, underreporting on rapes in an era of stigma makes statistics very unreliable. At best you can show that the upper class men raped the upper class women less (and this is doubtful), but servants, black women, etc, had no meaningful legal recourse.
A guy who practiced true Christian virtues would be unlikely, if he practiced them perfectly, to be a rapist, fine. A perfect Christian culture would be unlikely to need laws against murder and theft, while we’re at it, and probably wouldn’t be capitalist. But the evidence you have just doesn’t support this conclusion. Overcrowding, better reporting (think the guys in the old West kept good stats on the outlaws they shot?) measures this more than a decrease in Christianity.
All feminism did, maybe, was make it easier to talk about rape and make it bad to rape any women, not just ones of equivalent social status. That’s not the same thing as increasing the number of rapes.
Anyhow. If these guys are guilty (and I’m having a hard time believing she decided freely to have sex with three guys in the bathroom and asked them to strangle her), well…. I dunno the punishment. Rape pisses me off so all I can think of now is something poetic like being beaten with lacrosse sticks and balls.
The murder rate in the US was 1 in 100k citizens in 1900. in 2000 it was 91 in 100k.
Check that. The Bureau of Criminal Justice stats say the murder rate was 1.2 (per 100k population) in 1900 and 6.1 in 2000. So yes, a five-fold increase, but not a 91-fold increase.
I wonder how accurate statistics are from 1900 regarding the deaths of non-whites. I wonder about the role of cheap guns and cheap drugs in contemporary murder rates. But mostly I wonder about the use of religion as an explanatory variable. What conclusions can we draw about the years 1913-1941 when the murder rate was even higher than it is today?
For what it’s worth, the putatively religious Southern states have among the highest rates of murder, rape and assault (and divorce, for that matter) in the nation; the lowest rates are found in the putatively secular Northeastern states. Admittedly, there are many differences between North and South. Arguably people are more willing to embrace religion -and specifically strict religion – in places where other forces of social cohesion are eroding. But that’s a whole ‘nuther thread.
Suffice it to say, the evidence suggests that religious participation causes changes in crime rates. Or perhaps crime rates cause changes in religious participation. Or both variables are tied to a third variable. Or there’s no relationship at all. But don’t quote me on that.
Jake:
The role of the stereotypical “man of the house” is to protect and provide, and to provide guidance and discipline to the children. Depending on which version of the stereotype we’re talking about, he may have some measure of power over his wife, but he’s expected to use it responsibly. I suppose you could call that “domination” in some sense of the word, but it’s not the sense that comes readily to my mind in the context of the phrase “dominate and abuse.”
Some men frequently make derogatory references to women, but I don’t see what that has to do with masculinity. Being a jerk is just something people do—it’s not a cultural norm. Women make derogatory references to men, too, and I’d argue that derogatory generalizations about men are more socially acceptable than derogatory generalizations about women (“men are pigs” vs. “women are bitches”). Does that mean that popular conceptions of femininity center around dominating men?
TV and movies show women needing to be rescued from men by men because men tend to be physically stronger than women. If anything, I think Hollywood has gone too far in the direction of trying to promote gender equivalence by making implausible action heroes out of women. Anyway, the message I see in all this is that bad men dominate and abuse women, and good men do not.
Movies and TV are also filled with examples of men who foolishly try to assert dominance over their wives and eventually get their comeuppance and end up looking like buffoons. What message do you think that this gives about masculinity in US culture?
You might not like some of these stereotypes—I know I’m uncomfortable with some of them—but they’re a far cry from the “culture of rape” bugbear.
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Lacrosse players are making some pretty awful comments about it at the lacrosse forum.
They are mostly worried about how it will affect the sport. For chrissake.
Brandon,
I strenuously disagree with you – but you already knew that.
The role of the stereotypical “man of the house” is to protect and provide…
Which position is the more powerful? That of protecting and providing or that of being protected and being provided for? Aside from which, have you ever heard the saying, “So and so wears the pants in that family?” What do you think that means?
Some men frequently make derogatory references to women, but I don’t see what that has to do with masculinity. Being a jerk is just something people do…it’s not a cultural norm.
I would say that most men make derogatory (and demeaning & belittling & dehumanizing) comments about women on a regular basis. I have worked in a wide variety of places & this is one thing that does not seem to vary. Examples (which other people have used already on this blog) are the way in which we refer to sex. He scored, nailed her, banged her, screwed her, etc. It implies that the man is the victor & that the woman lost as well as showing the man as the active participant while the woman is passive. (Yes, I know that you’ll come back with how you know women who talk about nailing some guy – but that is not what is common in pop culture)>
TV and movies show women needing to be rescued from men by men because men tend to be physically stronger than women.
Often women must be rescued from men who are not physically stronger but who have more power (whether that be henchmen or guns).
If anything, I think Hollywood has gone too far in the direction of trying to promote gender equivalence by making implausible action heroes out of women.
As opposed to plausible action heroes like Schwarzenegger, Segal, van Dam, XXX, Reeves, etc? How are any of these more plausible than, say, Lara Croft? They’re all fantastical dreams anyhow. Why is it more believable that Segal can hand fight his way through 150 foes than the idea that Jovovich can hand fight her way through 150 foes?
Anyway, the message I see in all this is that bad men dominate and abuse women, and good men do not.
Like in True Lies or Pretty Woman? Your eyes seem to be closed to the huge majority of pop culture that says otherwise.
Does that mean that popular conceptions of femininity center around dominating men?
Context is everything and you are looking at those statements outside of the context of the reality of the position of women in US culture.
why do the MRAs always show up on rape threads?
Because rape is theoretical to them.
This story was sickening enough until I went to David Wright’s website and actually saw some of the players. A few of them are from my hometown. I know the older brothers of two of these guys, and they’re decent people. However, the town positively worships lacrosse players. These boys graduate from HS with a sense of entitlement that you would not believe. There’s also a nasty undercurrent of racism and misogyny running through the town.
I’m horrified. I’m in shock but frankly, I shouldn’t be surprised.
Q: well, *being* raped, sure, that’s all theoretical to them. But as far actually, *raping*, I’m guessing that more of them than would ever admit it have had first-hand experience.
That’s a great picture and post.
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There are so many aspects to this situation, leading us to so much dialogue (and outrage.) One blaring gap I see regards questions of accountability. Why, in all of this media and blogosphere coverage, is no one questioning the role of the lacrosse team coach? In the socialization of sport, we have assigned the “coach” in college athletics the roles of mentor, parent, leader, and symbol for our athletes, our communities, and our identities. Yet no one mentions the Duke lacrosse coach as someone liable for the actions of these students. How has he slipped through the radar? We are so quick to judge the street level culprits (who bear the immediate responsibility) when there are so many institutions and individuals higher up in the hierarchy who have had it in their power to educate, transform, and mandate the change needed on the street. Bring the coach to testify!
i do hear the boys/ captains statement stating they did not rape this women and the dna test will prove that. What, i don’t here them saying “like clinton” is no one had sex with this women!!!!! They could have use a condom. and if they used force there will be brusing. I am waiting for the attorney to come out and say she was hired for sex. I would like to here a statement that no one had sex with this women. I believe prosition sex for money and is still illegal!!! The reason why a nice young man would have to hire a women for sex is just for contriol! I want the hear no one had sex with her. Not the accusations are fales. The attorney is going to say she was hired for sex!!!! Wait it is coming next. It is always the womens fault for putting themselves into the situation. If you daughter go to a party with these boys it will be there fault not the godd upstanding citizen, WHAT a joke. If she was a prositute and not a stipper it is illegal. Also if she shows signs of assault or force it is rape. These boys did lots of things wrong they are not nice men. I am not goetting a good feeling about this, the dna test will not prove much except they may have used a condom. I want to hear the boys say out load that no one had sex with this women!
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i just read what brandon wrote. I have have wonderful men / 5brothers who grew up around were most of these boys grew up and truly were all american boys. REALLY. no ego althletes up unile there middle ages. There are so many wonderful men in this world. I believe this is a reaction not to men in general but to athletes with privliges way beond what is acceptable to the human race. It is our job as parents, teachers and coaches to make sure these boys turn into good citizens and not savages. I went to college with boy’s just like this. I have left frat house feeling unsafe. I was smart enough. We should not feel that our daughters are in danger or son’s from the “entitlment/ego”. There was an article in the Baltimore sun about a high school lacroose season cancelled for the sex scandel i believe it was the saint paul school (the article is called entitlement/ good read) and in NY st. john University lacrosse team had a similiar scandle in the 90’s. This is a problem and no not all men are like this. But there is a sport culture that put these boy’s(not men) on a pedistal. It has to stop.
Can I ask what an MRA is? And I, for the record, have never raped anyone. Are new people not welcome?
MRA is an acronym that stands for “men’s rights activist.” There’s no bar to new commenters here and the bloggers will surely tell you that you’re welcome, but everybody will judge you by what you say and we are free to disagree pointedly. I think it’s fair to say that if you’re looking for an environment where people are buying what you’re selling, you ought to move on.
Txfeminist posted some comments from a lacrosse forum. One person there qualified his mostly self-serving whining with this:
“Although I am beyond appauled by the acquisations …”
Apparently he is unconcerned by the impact his spelling may have on the reputation of the sport.
If the players are so completely innocent then why are the 47 players “mum”. If they are certain nothing happened – and that the DNA will show that AND that the 911 calls are wrong – then why not have all 47 players come in to talk with the police, why not volunteer for a lie detector? Why are they hiring all these high powered attorneys? If they are so very innocent where is the truth – the whole truth and nothing but the truth…………
For anyone to claim that they “know” what actually did or did not happen is completely ridiculous. To say that these lacrosse players are all bad guys is similar to the arguments that this alleged victim “deserved” what may have happened to her. What happened to being presumed innocent until proven guilty? So the lacrosse guys are big partiers (shocking that they are a) in college and b) on an athletic team). Does that make everyone who is a partier in college a rapist?
And to make the presumption that all these guys are snobby, elitist, racist, privleged, pampered, etc., is in the same league as the people who claim that the alleged victim is a whore. Any sample of 47 college students who find some displaying those traits. One guy making a comment about a cotton shirt doesn’t make all of them racists and it doesn’t make them rapists by any stretch of the imagination. The earlier 911 call has all kinds of holes in it that any objective observer would have have to concede (Which side of the street are these guys on? Was this woman walking along or was she in a car? Why, if she felt so threatened, would she remain standing in front of the house to make the 911 call? How did she know the address?)
Further, the so-called “rap sheet” citing all the offenses these guys have been written up for. How many of these citations were for violent crimes? Exactly none. I’m willing to bet that 90% of college students are guilty of underage drinking, a noise complaint, or public urination. To use these minor infractions to paint the entire team as out-of-control, potential rapists is silly and doesn’t suggest any more than them being a typical college student. Also, as a recent Duke graduate, I know that virtually every off-campus house, whether it is rented by members of an athletic team, a fraternity, or a sorority, has received noise complaints (that’s what happens when the social scene is forced off campus). Where does that leave the “rap sheet”? These guys are typical, if rowdy, college students who throw parties.
And hiring an attorney is not evidence of guilt by any means. It’s just common sense, even if you have done nothing wrong. Now attempting to flee the state or leading the police on a slow-speed chase, that looks more incriminating. Frankly, it makes sense (and any attorney will tell you this) to keep quiet. It makes a lot more sense to have one statement issued by the captains of the team (who did give statements to the police by the way), than to have close to fifty individual statements flying around in the press.
Is it possible that three lacrosse guys did this? Sure. Is it possible that the alleged victim is lying or not being entirely truthful (especially considering that certain aspects of her account of the events do not make all that much sense)? Yes. Anyone who cannot concede both those points is out of their mind.
Thomas, thanks for the advice. Why have a discussion forum if there is no discussion. A bunch of people bitching about the same stuff is not discussion it’s narcisim, buddy. Introducing ideas and having them shot down is great. It’s how we all learn. Except of course htose like you who know everything. You buyin that?
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My son plays lacrosse at a D1 school, although there it’s a club sport, not a varsity sport (i.e., the athletes and their families have to pay the expenses of the team). While the various generalizations offered here characterizing lacrosse players may well apply to the Duke lacrosse team (about which I know nothing), they don’t apply to my son’s team or to my son. I rather suspect they don’t apply to 99% of lacrosse players.
I’m curious; I’ve read stories about this in the various media outlets. While the allegations are well publicized, so far I’ve not seen any discussion of actual evidence that a rape occurred. If anyone has seen such I’d like to know.
I don’t presume anyone’s guilty simply because they’ve kept their mouth shut in public and hired a lawyer, either. If my son had been accused of rape, or any other crime, and he told me, “No way, Dad, I didn’t do it and I want to tell everyone that”, I’d tell him to shut up and hire him a lawyer, too. The media are all over this, and any public statement that anyone makes will be edited, excerpted, and otherwise used in a fashion calculated to sell media advertising time, not to disseminate the truth. Look how one or two guys yelling racial epithets is being used to paint them all as racists. Look how people on here are presuming that if the bathroom was in use for a 1/2 hour that everyone at the party knew it, and knew it was the same people in there the whole 1/2 hour. I’ve been to parties where I’ve drunk plenty of beer and watered a tree and had no clue what was going on in the bathroom.
I’m not presuming that these guys are innocent. Plenty of athletes have been so idolized that they have an entirely twisted idea of what they’re entitled to. But I’m not presuming they’re guilty, either. Let’s wait and see what the courts come up with.
RonF: While the various generalizations offered here characterizing lacrosse players may well apply to the Duke lacrosse team (about which I know nothing), they don’t apply to my son’s team or to my son.
That’s what the fathers of rapists usually say, Ron. Even when there’s video evidence. I see no reason to take your assurance that your son wouldn’t commit rape any more seriously than I would take any other man’s assurance that his son wouldn’t.
so far I’ve not seen any discussion of actual evidence that a rape occurred. If anyone has seen such I’d like to know.
Right, because when a sleazy exotic dancer is medically examined, and there’s bruising and evidence of recent sexual intercourse, and she says she was held down and raped by three nice men just like your son, that’s not evidence.
God, every so often, I come back here, and right away, Ampersand’s anti-feminist friends who make him feel good remind me why I left.
This is what the media really cares about:
http://www.cnn.com/2006/LAW/03/23/bouncer.indictment/index.html
http://www.cnn.com/2006/SHOWBIZ/TV/03/30/campbell.arrest.reut/index.html
http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/nation/la-na-huff30mar30,1,3074768.story?coll=la-headlines-nation&ctrack=1&cset=true
http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/nation/la-na-briefs30.4mar30,1,2820568.story?coll=la-headlines-nation
The Duke rape tragedy obviously hasn’t received the national media attention it ethically deserves. The honest and genuine readers here know what kind of stories would get national media coverage right. Just add a little role reversal to this rape tragedy and you’ll get your answer. The truth of the matter is this country is breaking down and doomed to failure, if you’ve been keeping up with any true current events (the kind that you’ll never ever see during primetime) then you should know what I’m talking about.
Remember a long time ago when that white mother killed here two precious white children, she claimed that some black men killed them, but in fact she killed them. That story was almost everywhere; it was just as big as that missing Holloway girl story. I also remember a few years back when that older white guy raped and killed that 7-year-old black girl in a Las Vegas casino bathroom. http://www.pacificnews.org/jinn/stories/4.17/980818-iverson.html
The way that story received minimal coverage incredibly baffles the human mind. My point in all of this is this place we call home really isn’t for us, our true home is in the heavenly kingdom with God. The Bible tells us that we will no doubly go through persecutions and struggles here on earth because these are the curses of man, thanks to Adam and Eve. We African Americans know from day one this country has never really treated us equally and fairly. It’s long over due that we cut off our disturbing trust in man and have more faith and trust in God.
RonF
From what I understand the woman came in to hospital with fairly severe injuries and the doctors say that she clearly is the victim of rape. Her nails, purse, cellphone et.c. was found in a policesearch of the house. A neighbour witnessed the racial abuse and hostile situation outside the house. As I understand it is a small house and apart from the team the two dancers where the only women present so it ought to have been pretty obvius to most of the team what was going on in the bathroom. Apart from confessing to the underage drinking and other obvious activities, the team has refused to cooperate with the police.
If these fact aren’t enough circumstantial evidence to believe that Dukes players are a disgrace as both men and athletes I don’t know what is. And if I had a son I’d make it very clear to him that I would never want him to go to a party like this or even associate with people who do so.
RonF comments make me want to vomit – if I had any leftover questions about why boys and young women think they can get away with this shit, they’re answered. The fact that you would see fit to see this as an attack on lacrosse players, and to wonder if there was any evidence that these guys were racists (um, sitting in a room where your friends abuse a women while yelling racial epithets seems like enough evidence to me) or that a rape even occurred tells me everything that’s wrong with a) masculinity, b) the culture of hero worship towards athletes in the states, c) white people who don’t get that they’re racists.
Not enough media attention? Have you turned on MSNBC in the last couple of days? It’s been featured, front and center, on the Abrams Report, Rita Cosby, Joe Scarborough…virtually every show except the one’s that focus usually exclusively focus on political affairs. Additionally, there have been articles in the New York Times, USA Today, The Washington Post, and other nationally read magazines. Not many other rape cases get that kind of attention. Perhaps that you’re upset that some of these news outlets have *gasp* questioned the alleged victims story and have not immeditately asked the athletes’ heads on a stick. Some of them have, brace yourself, shown some restraint and haven’t rushed to judge the lacrosse players when the evidence and accounts of the evening are less than a slam-dunk. There’s no Rodney King”“style video tape of the event, the DNA tests haven’t come back yet, etc….
And the magic word that has been missing from the many of the above posts is “allegedly”. Nothing is known about the case other than that the woman has been assaulted. By whom, we do not know. Could be the party-goers. Could have been a guy on the street. Can vaginal trauma be self-inflicted? Yes.
Lastly, suppose the DNA tests come back negative. Say that whatever samples they took from the rape kit do not match up with any of the DNA from the (constitutionally dubious) mouth swabs. I don’t see any way for the DA get a conviction. Because the alleged victim doesn’t seem to be able to give any description other than that her attackers were white, does he plan to charge all 46 guys (some of them not being at the party) with rape? Further, we know the party was thrown and attended by lacrosse players…but were they the only people there? Were there football players? Baseball players? Members of fraternities? Duke alumni? P-Froshes? Residents of Durham? We know that lacrosse players were there but are we prepared to look into every white male in the area? When police in Omaha took samples from two dozen black men to solve a rape case, the public went nuts calling it racial profiling. In Charlottesville, Virginia, police took sample from 187 black males to solve a case and the ACLU screamed. Where are they now?
Let me guess Jim.
You are a white male age 23-35. You believe in reverse racism. You also have African American friends. Did I get 2 out of 3 right? This next question isn’t related to the rape story that’s receiving minimal coverage. When a minority questions anything about civil rights, do you automatically jump on the defense?
“We know that lacrosse players were there but are we prepared to look into every white male in the area? When police in Omaha took samples from two dozen black men to solve a rape case, the public went nuts calling it racial profiling.” But all it takes is hearsay to put an African American male in jail with or without bail, when the purported crime committed is “black on white”. I’ve seen it many times you can’t convince me otherwise.
This is America and I don’t know if you’ve noticed, but from day one, we haven’t had much luck here, hehe. Jim you seem like well-educated guy, answer this for me, what if your mom pleaded with you that she was raped by a similar group of guys? Would you say “I’m sorry mom, this is no Rodney King”“style video tape of the event, the DNA tests haven’t come back yet – I’ll get back to you on that one” I hope not because that would be brutal.
RonF, I have a nephew who played D-1 lacrosse in a university non-club team. I would like to think that this could never have happened to him or his teammates either, but I think a few points are in order:
The impact of alcohol and its misuse is writ large in this incident — people do things under the influence that they would never do while sober, even if they consciously wanted to. Some of my nephew’s teammates were involved in a terrible, fatal car accident that was probably caused or exacerbated by the use of alcohol. So if your son or his teammates drink to excess at any point in their college career, they are at higher risk of doing all kinds of stupid and wrongful things.
Second, the propensity to do something bad and wrong is much higher if there are even a few instigators on the team, and the more influential they are (captains, etc.) the more likely it is that the “good” fellows will just either (a) do nothing to prevent it or (b) join in under a level of peer pressure. So even if 90 or 99 percent of players are great kids (which, I think gives these kids the serious benefit of the doubt), a few bad apples willing to act on their evil thoughts can and does infect a whole team.
And what if the coach or the university never punishes the “intermediate” not so bad behavior that everyone is pooh poohing here? Surely, as a conservative you have heard of the concept of defining deviancy down? It was used as a reason by Rudolph Giuliani to crack down very hard on blacks and minorities in New York City for minor offenses in order to forestall the general lawlessness that was said to thrive when the “small things” are overlooked. Tell me why that concept doesn’t apply to sports teams made up of overprivileged athletes drawn largely from NYC’s suburban enclaves?
To answer the first question, you are in fact 3 for 3. I am white, 24, male, have black friends, and I believe that reverse racism does exist. If by “racisim” you mean any person jumping to conclusions about someone else based solely on the color of their skin, I think that it is pretty clear from reading some of these posts that reverse racism does exist…and since race and class are closely intertwined in the United States but especially in Durham, one could argue that reverse classism does exist as well. Being white and “privleged” does not make a person a rapist. Neither does throwing some loud parties or having a bonehead teammate make a racist comment. And yet, it appears that many people won’t be happy until these guys’ heads are on a stick, DNA evidence or no. So, yes, to presume something with such conviction without knowing intimate facts seems like reverse racism to me.
That being said, I am usually sympathetic to the minority opinion when it comes to the question of civil rights. For example, I am strongly in favor of legalizing same-sex marriage because I have not heard a good argument against it, at least not one that does not use theological texts as the base for its argument. But this case, to me, is not about civil rights as much as it is about a violent crime being committed. No one is systematically standing in the way or someone else’s right to vote or due process. So to me it is not a question of Jim Crow laws or separate but equal, it is a matter of a violent crime against one person by others.
If my mom claimed that she was raped, I would believe her provided that there was no evidence to the contrary. For example, if my mom had schizophrenia or bipolar disorder I would naturally question it (as any rational person would). (By the way, I’m not saying the alleged victim is mentally disturbed”“I was just providing an example of a situation in which I would question my mom’s claim of being raped.) That being said, if I had a son on this team and he swore to me that nothing happened, I would believe him (again, provided that he did not have a violent history or a propensity for felonious behavior). Were it my mom or my son, that presumption to believe a loved one or relative comes from the same instinct. But this means two things in particular. First, so far as I know, no one on this board is related to either the alleged victim or her alleged perpetrators, so for anyone to say that they believe either side 100% seems a bit hastey. Second, for the same reason, relatives, close friends, contacts of any kind would not be permitted to sit on a jury in a case like this. There would be no way for a person with strong feelings one way or the other to be a fair and impartial juror (or judge).
Lastly, and this may be a moot point, but if an African American male is put in prison without his due process, why would it make it OK to do the same to these guys? Do two wrongs make a right? America is not perfect but doing so, while placating the understandably upset residents of Durham, would not be right either. Logically, you cannot scream for these guys’ blood and then play a violin for others who did not get their due process. I’m not a lawyer but I cannot see a case standing up in court if there was not evidence linking the accused to the crime. Should the DNA come back negative, given that the alleged victim doesn’t seem to be able to recall anything about her attackers other than that they were white and on the lacrosse team (and even the second point is murky), I don’t see any way for the DA to build a case.
Jim, I will say, categorically, that I don’t want any person, white or black to go to jail if they are not guilty. Two wrongs do not make a right — but I have enough experience with the criminal justice system to believe with a fair degree of confidence that if it were not for the very loud outcry by protesters, bloggers, and even people like me (a Duke alumna), the combined influence of the various powerful forces connected to these players — the University, its donors and alumni sports buffoons, and the players’ parents and their lawyers — would almost certainly prevail upon the legal system to paper over any wrongdoing. Justice shouldn’t be so hard, but when it turns the tables on those who could never think of themselves as criminals and asks the affluent to temper their expectations of a smooth and profitable return from life’s investment, well, it is. Sometimes it takes a lot of yelling and screaming to balance the scales of justice.
Jesu wrote:
What ? It doesn’t cheer you to know that if you were raped, nice, civil guys like RonF and Jim would sit on the jury if you decided to press charges ?
Tsk.
Wow, do you ever make a lot of accusations without backing them up.
Jim, please provide a direct quote of someone here actually saying that being white and privileged makes someone a rapist.
And provide a direct quote of smoeone here actually saying that if someone throws loud parties or has a racist teammate, that makes someone a rapist.
And please provide a direct quote of someone here actually saying that it’s okay to put these guys in prison without due process, because that’s happened to a black man.
As long as you’re respectful of the other posters here, you’re welcome to argue for dissenting views. But insulting lies about what other posters have said, such as you’ve posted, are not resepctful.
Jim, here is a useful perspective on the obsessive attention to due process that the well-connected and affluent exhibit when they get arrested and not otherwise: When you are driving in the slow lane you are exquisitely aware of how much faster those around you are going. When you are in the fast lane you don’t notice. Get arrested, and all of a sudden you are forcibly placed in the slow lane andyou become hyper-aware of the procedures and presumptions that protect the accused that you barely notice, and in fact, might even oppose as “technicalities” when they are applied to others who, as it happens, are usually travelling full time in America’s slow lane of race and income. I do think that class is a risk factor for unfair accusations, though the opposit of what you imply. I just watched an episode of Dateline last night in which a white man who made his living by auto salvage and happened to have a drinking problem and otherwise represented a nuisance to law enforcement spent 18 years in prison for a rape he did not commit. The sheriff never showed a picture of an actual other suspect to the victim — the suspect who was later proven by DNA evidence to be the guilty party. He was just “sure” that this lowlife was the guy. You can’t be so blind as to see that these over privileged white guys stand a much better chance of getting off even if guilty than they are at risk for being convicted even if innocent.
Amazing.
I told myself not to reply if Jim answered yes to at least 2 of my questions. Unfortunately, I’m going to anyway. Jim I don’t mean any disrespect, but I was appalled by your earlier comments contained in these posts. It bothers me when guys like you, the majority, act as if you’re incapable of exhibiting any kind of deviant behavior. In this case, it’s group rape. In other cases, it may involve going on a shooting spree at a high school, or storing dismembered human body parts of gay black men in your freezer, etc. My point is you shouldn’t make excuses or use irrelevant arguments to dismiss abnormal behavior (the media does it all the time: “Oh those poor boys didn’t have any friends, they felt isolated, there must be a deeper meaning why those boys went out on a shooting spree”). When minorities exhibit similar deviant behaviors, it’s innate or it’s usually in their genes right? And since you answered yes to at least 2 of my questions, to some extent I can tell how you think and perceive the world ““ which tells me I really shouldn’t put much time in to this talk.
I don’t know where that argument came from. I simply said that based on suspicion or speculative evidence, it’s easy to issue an arrest warrant against an African American male. It happened to Kobe Bryant, Broadway actor Alton Fitzgerald White, Tupac Shakur, Mike Tyson, etc. All of which where either proven innocent or released from jail due to lack of evidence. Like you say, I’m assuming in this frat house incident it’s more challenging to make any arrests based on such speculative evidence, it’s a good thing Kobe or anyone of his peers weren’t around. Yes I think this is unjust. But like I said, bad luck just seems to follow us in the strangest way. Especially for this rape victim.
I don’t remember whether Mike Tyson was arrested based on flimsy evidence but he was definitely convicted of rape, and his victim was black not white.
Barbara.
You could be right. I remember Tyson was caught in the unfortunate, but common rape scenario. Girl goes to or leaves his house around 3am. She goes to the police with marks and bruises, Tyson go to jail, I think. If Tyson and the others went to jail due to someone else’s word then so be it. Logic tells me there should be some sort of consistency with this tragedy as well.
I think that regardless of whether this alleged gang rape has been proven yet- college rape and fraternity rape is a big problem and does need attention. I do think that people are innocent until proven guilty. The problem is that only 2% of accused rapists are convicted according to the World Book Encyclopedia 2002.
As a victim of fraternity related gang rape (drug facilitated) I can tell you that justice is hard to come by for rape victims. The just world theory explains why some people are hesitant to believe rape victims: (I am not saying anyone here is doing this- I just want to raise awareness)
The Just world theory states that:
“Individuals that have a strong belief in a just world can have this belief challenged when they encounter a victim of random misfortune such as a rape victim. The individual wants to believe that the world is a safe, just place where people get what they deserve and deserve what they get. Even when evidence suggests otherwise, the individual is very reluctant to give up this belief that the world is not just. In the face of contradicting evidence, research suggests (Kleinke and Meyer, 1996) that people with a high belief in a just world will do one of two things: either they will try to eliminate the suffering of the innocent victims or else they will derogate them for their fate. Since it is impossible to reverse the crime of rape, and thus relieve the victim of her suffering, the rape victim is often subjected to derogation and blame. In this manner, the person who believes in a just world can maintain this belief as there is no longer a suffering person, but a woman who deserves her misfortune.”
Here are some resources on college rape as well to think about:
Date Rape: College’s Dirty Secret
“Three years ago, Heather* remembers how hard it was to leave behind her family and friends. She remembers having to face the fact that she was once again a freshman. She remembers wanting so badly to be well-liked. But there is one thing that Heather does not remember at all – the night she was raped by two freshman males in a room full of people.”
Our Guys
Lesson plan based on a published book – Find this book in a library
“Thirteen teenage boys lured a retarded girl into a basement where four of them gang-raped her while several others looked on. The boys were the most popular athletes in high school. And although rumors of the rape began quickly circulating through the town, it was weeks before anyone reported it to the police and years before the boys finally went to trial…. Why did the town’s supposedly responsible adults–including teachers, coaches, parents, and law-enforcement officers–turn a blind eye to the increasingly violent and aberrant behavior of Glen Ridge’s golden boys? The expertly told story of the rape and the subsequent trial makes a compelling national drama of conscience and morality, charged with a significance that reaches far beyond one town and its criminal justice system.”
Fraternity Gang Rape: Sex, Brotherhood, and Privilege on Campus Find this book in a library
Sanday, Peggy Reeves. (1990) Fraternity gang rape : sex, brotherhood, and privilege on campus. New York : New York University Press, 203.
“The evidence reveals a common pattern; the “brothers” target a vulnerable “party girl” who wants acceptance or is high on alcohol (sometimes her drinks have been deliberately spiked); she is taken to a room in the fraternity house where she may or may not agree to have sex with one man; she then generally passes out, and a “train” of men have sex with her. Such incidents of gang rape are rarely prosecuted or even labeled rape, reflecting an institutional attitude that grants men sexual privileges and accepts sexually aggressive behavior.” (Sanday, 1990)
It’s pretty well known that the term ‘running a train on a girl’ means to spike a girl’s drink and line up to rape her after she has passed out. It is literally not considered rape by the college boys who partipate. They will tell you they watched this happen as though it is not a crime. They explain it as “it’s not hurting anyone. She wont even remember”
I think people should remember that girls who attend these partys are someone’s daughter, sister, friend. They are normal, healthy students themselves. Not after being raped. They are rape trauma syndrome sufferers. They often have eating disorders, OCD, self injury (cutting themselves), suicidal thoughts and incredible stigma.
Just something to think about.
A survivor
Reposting my comment from another thread here:
Speaking as someone who’s a bit older than most posters here, I am actually heartened and astonished by this case. People are acting as though white men raping a black woman is a crime. And white women are backing her up! In the South! I’m honestly gobsmacked.
For most of this country’s history, and certainly for most of North Carolina’s, white-on-black rape was *not* a crime. Sometimes it wasn’t a crime even on the books, and the rest of the time it was unthinkable that charges might even be filed, much less prosecuted.
I don’t know if anyone since William Faulkner has been honest about the sexual dynamics between the races in the South, but he was. Southern white fear of “nigrahs marrying our women” was (and I assume is) largely driven by the fear that black men would exact vengence for the way white men have traditionally treated black women … as their rightful prey.
Even if the case never comes to court, the fact that there’s an uproar about it across color lines is an enormous advance over the situation in my youth, and I’m really impressed by how far North Carolina has come.
A survivor, thanks for the reminder, because a lot of rape defense is about making people forget that the woman is a member of a family and a community. If there is one thing I could wish for, though, it is that a woman who has been raped should not feel, or not be made to feel, stigmatized. A woman who has been raped has done nothing wrong, and her value and self-worth should never be tied to whether or not she has had sex with anyone, including the accused rapist. It makes me angry that women should be made to feel guilty about any sexual act, whether they derived pleasure from it or not, but especially when it was forced upon them.
Wishing you peace.
Jerry, Mike Tyson’s victim was a contestant in the Miss Black America contest (or a similar type of event). She was a high achieving college student who he asked out — suffice it to say, when the defense attorney’s strategy is, basically, that the guy you went out with is such a notorious jerk that you must have realized when you went to his room that rough sex was part of the bargain — there isn’t much of a defense. Tyson had an uphill battle and was caught in at least two lies on the witness stand, being contradicted by his chauffeur, among others, about what the victim was wearing and the fact that he had more or less begged her to go out with him. He really didn’t understand that what he had done was wrong, however, that’s not the standard: his belief was objectively unreasonable under the circumstances. Why do I follow these things so obsessively? I don’t know, maybe I should change my “major” to criminal law.
Guilty until proven innocent.
The way of the American media!
I can understand demanding that an investigation be launched (it has).
I can understand sympathizing with someone who has alleged that this has happend.
I can understand the demand for justice if this proves to be true.
But the fact of the matter is, there is very little evidence to demonstrate that these boys have committed this crime. But as of right now, they have been convicted in the media.
If no charges are filed because of a lack of evidence, it won’t be because the boys are innocent, it will be because they are white (and in some cases rich) young men. They won’t be innocent, they will have gotten away with a heinous crime because the girl was black.
If this didn’t happen, it won’t matter, you’ve all convicted these young men.
If it did happen, by all means throw the book at everyone involved.
Victim rights are important, but so are those who are not guilty, or those not charged.
We’ve seemed to forget that last part.
So at best these “boys” are only guilty of racially insulting a black woman? Or does this type of behaviour become accepted if it is directed at someone with less entitlement then theirs? Boys just being boys…and the tawdry black stripper bringing out the worst in them?
And when they insult their neighbors who ask them to quiet down? Once again they get a pass?
I suppose there is not punishment for them being louts, but why they get defended for this behaviour is beyond me.
Amazing to me how many supposedly, well-educated and thoughtful people in this blog do not understand the basics of American liberty — innocent until proven guilty. Instead, they are taking this horrible incident as grounds for some kind of racial or gender-bashing statement. For once, it would be nice if people actually did what they say they stand for — and let the facts be laid out before making assumptions and unfounded claims.
Who knows, perhaps the lacrosse team did not rape this woman. Of course, they might have. But, unless someone out there has hard evidence that they aren’t sharing in this blog, no one really knows until the facts come forth.
But, hey, it’s alot more fun to just jump in and accuse people of something, make a fuss to stir up trouble when you can — why not? Why wait for the facts? Why assume innocence until proven guilty? As an American, I for one am ashamed of how the public and press is treating this. And I am at a loss to explain it to the children around me — accusations with no facts. just to stir up trouble. What a waste. We have become a shambles of a country.
Mr from Minnesota:
From the cite:
America is a largely (90% or thereabouts) Christian nation.
Japan is a largely non-Christian nation.
Proof positive that Christian values lead to five times as much crime.
Next?
Jake Squid:
When does a character “need rescuing”? Surely, it’s when something bad will happen to them (usually death) if they don’t get rescued.
So to answer your question, ordinary men are more likely to need rescuing, but are less likely to be rescued.
That ordinary men are expendable, dispensable cannon-fodder.
Ampersand:
Is this standard of debate going to be required across the board? Because if so, then please provide a direct quote of me actually saying that all the world’s problems are caused by women, as you alledged recently. And I could compile a lengthy list of similar remarks by other feminists and pro-feminists if I was so minded.
And while we on the subject, perhaps you could say something about This post. Contributors should not be subject to aspersions of this nature, And I don’t think for a second you’d tolerate anyone suggesting that posters here were false accusers.
And thirdly, please fix the link I buggered up in the previous post.
1. As I recall, that was my sarcastic response to your utterly unsubstantiated claim that (paraphrased from memory) rapes caused by women egging on men to rape were actually a lot more common than we might think. Sorry if you failed to follow the nuances of that.
In contrast, I don’t think Jim was being sarcastic.
2. As the moderation guidelines say, I give more slack to posters I find to be more interesting and/or to add more to discussion here. I also give more slack to long-established members of the community. So Cyrs T gets a lot of slack from me, whereas Jim doesn’t.
But I did find her post unfortunate, because I think it distracted from Q Grrl’s post, which I think was closer to the mark. The extent to which MRAs are drawn to disrupt threads about rape, more than any other subject, is quite striking. Myself, I think it has to do with desire of MRAs to see men as victims and nothing but victims in all contexts. Since rape is an instance in which men clearly are not always victims, MRAs want to prevent it from being discussed in any coherent fashion.
3. Fixed.
Daran,
Thanks ever so much for taking my questions seriously and not even hinting at being deliberately obtuse.
I’ll deal with the substance of that post if I ever get round to replying to it directly. For now I’ll just say that I disagree with your analysis, and leave it at that.
I wasn’t aware that sarcasm or the lack of it was a criterion. But if it is, then your remark below doesn’t appear to be sarcastic. I doubt you could quote anybody saying that “men [are] victims and nothing but victims in all contexts”.
My understanding is that ‘more slack’ meant that you would be much quicker to ban unfavoured posters, not that you would hold them to a different (and impossible) standard of debate.
I found her post unfortunate because it was an unsubstantiated and grossly offensive ad-hom, and my understanding was that such insults were not welcome here. I wouldn’t expect you to ban her, or even threaten a ban, and I certainly don’t want that. I did hope, though, that you would have more to say about it than that it distracted from a better post.
The reverse criticism can be leveled at feminists.
I’m not entirely sure whether this was intended to be irony. If not, then thanks, but I would have preferred a substantive response.
However I think irony is more likely. I may well be obtuse, but not deliberately so. I did take your question seriously, and responded to it likewise. I’m sorry you didn’t reciprocate.
Daran:
First of all, regarding Crys T’s post, point well taken. You’re right; in context, it was an unfair thing to say, and I ought to have objected to it on that basis.
However, since you’ve focused on that post, it’s worth pointing out that – unlike Jim’s post, which was full of lies – Cyrs T’s post was true. Among MRAs – like among all large groups of men – it’s safe to say that there are more rapists than there are admitted rapists.
I think she was also correct to imply that there are probably more rapists among MRAs than among most groups of men. This is because I expect that angry misogynists are more likely to rape than other men, and there are more angry misogynists among MRAs than among typical groups of men.
(I am by no means saying that all MRAs are rapists.)
The primary difference between my reply to you, and Jim’s reply to… no one in particular? The blog as a whole? … Is that I quoted the specific thing you said that I was responding to. Thus readers didn’t have to wonder who I was talking about, and could judge for themselves if the way I characterized what I was responding to was fair or not. Jim didn’t give the readers that opportunity.
As for my statement about many MRAs seeing men as victims and nothing but victims, you’re correct – that statement was inaccurate and hyperbolic.
It would have been better if I had said that many MRAs like to deny that women are oppressed by men in any significant fashion. For that reason, they are particularly drawn to derailing discussions of rape, since rape (apart from prison) is a fairly obvious case of a problem in which the most-often targeted victims are female, and virtually all perpetrators are male.