[Note: This version of the list is not the current version. The most up-to-date version of the list can always be found at this link.]
No time for blogging today – gotta draw, gotta go to work, blah blah blah. So instead, here’s a piece I compiled five or six years ago, originally as an exercise for a women’s studies class. It’s probably my most widely-read piece; as well as floating around on the internet, it’s been used in dozens of high school and college courses.
An Unabashed Imitation of an article by Peggy McIntosh
In 1990, Wellesley College professor Peggy McIntosh wrote an essay called “White Privilege: Unpacking the Invisible Knapsack”. McIntosh observes that whites in the U.S. are “taught to see racism only in individual acts of meanness, not in invisible systems conferring dominance on my group.” To illustrate these invisible systems, McIntosh wrote a list of 26 invisible privileges whites benefit from.
As McIntosh points out, men also tend to be unaware of their own privileges as men. In the spirit of McIntosh’s essay, I thought I’d compile a list similar to McIntosh’s, focusing on the invisible privileges benefiting men.
Since I first compiled it, the list has been posted several times on internet discussion groups. Very helpfully, many people have suggested additions to the checklist. More commonly, of course, critics (usually, but not exclusively, male) have pointed out men have disadvantages too – being drafted into the army, being expected to suppress emotions, and so on. These are indeed bad things – but I never claimed that life for men is all ice cream sundaes. Pointing out that men are privileged in no way denies that sometimes bad things happen to men.
In the end, however, it is men and not women who make the most money; men and not women who dominate the government and the corporate boards; men and not women who dominate virtually all of the most powerful positions of society. And it is women and not men who suffer the most from intimate violence and rape; who are the most likely to be poor; who are, on the whole, given the short end of patriarchy’s stick. As Marilyn Frye has argued, while men are harmed by patriarchy, women are oppressed by it.
Several critics have also argued that the list somehow victimizes women. I disagree; pointing out problems is not the same as perpetuating them. It is not a “victimizing” position to acknowledge that injustice exists; on the contrary, without that acknowledgement it isn’t possible to fight injustice.
An internet acquaintance of mine once wrote, “The first big privilege which whites, males, people in upper economic classes, the able bodied, the straight (I think one or two of those will cover most of us) can work to alleviate is the privilege to be oblivious to privilege.” This checklist is, I hope, a step towards helping men to give up the “first big privilege.”
The Male Privilege Checklist
1. My odds of being hired for a job, when competing against female applicants, are probably skewed in my favor. The more prestigious the job, the larger the odds are skewed.
2. I can be confident that my co-workers won’t think I got my job because of my sex – even though that might be true.
3. If I am never promoted, it’s not because of my sex.
4. If I fail in my job or career, I can feel sure this won’t be seen as a black mark against my entire sex’s capabilities.
5. The odds of my encountering sexual harassment on the job are so low as to be negligible.
6. If I do the same task as a woman, and if the measurement is at all subjective, chances are people will think I did a better job.
7. If I’m a teen or adult, and if I can stay out of prison, my odds of being raped are so low as to be negligible.
8. I am not taught to fear walking alone after dark in average public spaces.
9. If I choose not to have children, my masculinity will not be called into question.
10. If I have children but do not provide primary care for them, my masculinity will not be called into question.
11. If I have children and provide primary care for them, I’ll be praised for extraordinary parenting if I’m even marginally competent.
12. If I have children and pursue a career, no one will think I’m selfish for not staying at home.
13. If I seek political office, my relationship with my children, or who I hire to take care of them, will probably not be scrutinized by the press.
14. Chances are my elected representatives are mostly people of my own sex. The more prestigious and powerful the elected position, the more likely this is to be true.
15. I can be somewhat sure that if I ask to see “the person in charge,” I will face a person of my own sex. The higher-up in the organization the person is, the surer I can be.
16. As a child, chances are I was encouraged to be more active and outgoing than my sisters.
17. As a child, I could choose from an almost infinite variety of children’s media featuring positive, active, non-stereotyped heroes of my own sex. I never had to look for it; male heroes were the default.
18. As a child, chances are I got more teacher attention than girls who raised their hands just as often.
19. If my day, week or year is going badly, I need not ask of each negative episode or situation whether or not it has sexist overtones.
20. I can turn on the television or glance at the front page of the newspaper and see people of my own sex widely represented, every day, without exception.
21. If I’m careless with my financial affairs it won’t be attributed to my sex.
22. If I’m careless with my driving it won’t be attributed to my sex.
23. I can speak in public to a large group without putting my sex on trial.
24. If I have sex with a lot of people, it won’t make me an object of contempt or derision.
25. There are value-neutral clothing choices available to me; it is possible for me to choose clothing that doesn’t send any particular message to the world.
26. My wardrobe and grooming are relatively cheap and consume little time.
27. If I buy a new car, chances are I’ll be offered a better price than a woman buying the same car.
28. If I’m not conventionally attractive, the disadvantages are relatively small and easy to ignore.
29. I can be loud with no fear of being called a shrew. I can be aggressive with no fear of being called a bitch.
30. I can ask for legal protection from violence that happens mostly to men without being seen as a selfish special interest, since that kind of violence is called “crime” and is a general social concern. (Violence that happens mostly to women is usually called “domestic violence” or “acquaintance rape,” and is seen as a special interest issue.)
31. I can be confident that the ordinary language of day-to-day existence will always include my sex. “All men are created equal,” mailman, chairman, freshman, he.
32. My ability to make important decisions and my capability in general will never be questioned depending on what time of the month it is.
33. I will never be expected to change my name upon marriage or questioned if I don’t change my name.
34. The decision to hire me will never be based on assumptions about whether or not I might choose to have a family sometime soon.
35. Every major religion in the world is led primarily by people of my own sex. Even God, in most major religions, is usually pictured as being male.
36. Most major religions argue that I should be the head of my household, while my wife and children should be subservient to me.
37. If I have a wife or live-in girlfriend, chances are we’ll divide up household chores so that she does most of the labor, and in particular the most repetitive and unrewarding tasks.
38. If I have children with a wife or girlfriend, chances are she’ll do most of the childrearing, and in particular the most dirty, repetitive and unrewarding parts of childrearing.
39. If I have children with a wife or girlfriend, and it turns out that one of us needs to make career sacrifices to raise the kids, chances are we’ll both assume the career sacrificed should be hers.
40. Magazines, billboards, television, movies, pornography, and virtually all of media is filled with images of scantily-clad women intended to appeal to me sexually. Such images of men exist, but are much rarer.
41. I am not expected to spend my entire life 20-40 pounds underweight.
42. If I am heterosexual, it’s incredibly unlikely that I’ll ever be beaten up by a spouse or lover.
43. Complete strangers generally do not walk up to me on the street and tell me to “smile.”
44. On average, I am not interrupted by women as often as women are interrupted by men.
45. I have the privilege of being unaware of my male privilege.
(Compiled by Barry Deutsch, aka “Ampersand.” Permission is granted to reproduce this list in any way, for any purpose, so long as the acknowledgment of Peggy McIntosh’s work is not removed. If possible, however, I’d appreciate it if folks who use it could tell me about how they used it; my email is barry-at-amptoons-dot-com.)
(Updated since the original posting to add some new items to the list.)
[Note: This version of the list is not the current version. The most up-to-date version of the list can always be found at this link.]
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Re: The List,
How childish. You can make a list equally lengthy regarding FEMALE PRIVELEGE. This list contains some highly questionable claims. Women in the workforce are given privelege due to political correctness. IF you as much render a HINT of criticism toward a female you get the old and not so true anymore label of “Misogynist.” So that in itself, the denial of Free Speech for men will trump this entire list no matter how long it is constucted.
Mark:
Just to clarify, if a man is criticized for alleged misogyny, that means his Free Speech has been denied?
Folks, please settle down and act humanly to one another. That’s the most important. Not to bash one sex or the other. The site here is a male bashing site. There are privileges that go both ways, swap or offset one another. What’t the point in presenting one side of a case? The bottom line is this folks: women have for the last three decades have had every law, political correctness and government institution promote their opportunities and equality. Now, in 2005 it worked and worked so much that men are seeing it as skewed toward women. They’re right. And they’re right to now stand up for their rights. Can that be wrong? No, and any man or woman that pushes women’s rights should be ashamed of theirselves for trying to undermine the men’s movement. Zero sum game? Bullpucky!
Ampersap,
Yes, absolutely! When you label someone “misogynist” you attemp to silence that person with intimidation and you try to discredit that person so no other person will listen to that person. It’s done all the time and it’s a tactic used by feminists so that nobody can question their credibility or hold them accountable. It’s like a facist state. Instead of addressing the issues you make a personal attack. And it works! Look at all those politicians labeled racist! Very powerful things, words are. People should be free to say anything they want, that’s free speech, except yelling “fire” in a theater. Many MEN died for this country for you, Ampersap, to have this site to express your free speech. What you SHOULD be doing is thanking those men and not labeling them with a hateful word.
Of course, calling one man a misogynist equates to calling all men, living and dead, the same. Nice logic.
Oh, I forgot. It’s now considered worse to call someone out on their misogyny/racism/homophobia than to be misogynist/racist/homophobic.
But it’s a-okay to call someone a fascist! That’s not intimidation!
feminist, fascist, it’s all the same right?
oh, and you might wanna chuck a little “marxist” in there too, because that’s the very worst insult anti-feminists hand out.
My List_It’s Great TO BE A MAN…
1.)I get the privilege to die in a war.
2.)I get the privilege to die six years earlier than a female.
3.)I must make more money than my female mate otherwise I’m not enough.
4.)I must pay for any divorce for any reason.
5.)I must pay for child support even when I don’t get to see the kids.
6.)I must have an athletic body and must excell in all sports.
7.)I get the privilege of getting more of : strokes, heart disease and cancer than my female equivalent.
8.)I get the privilege of being more likely to commit suicide tens time more than a female.
9.)I get the privilege of suffering from depression six times more than a female, and I also get the privilege of not being able to tell anybody about it.
10.)I now get the privilege to get fewer educational degrees than a female.
11.)I get the privilege of having to be strong at all times in any condition.
12.)I get the privilege of not being able to cry at any and all times.
13.)I get the privilege of being suspected of being homosexual if not married.
14.)I get the privilege of being a Mr. Fix It when I’m at home.
15.)I must date models at all times.
16.)I get the privilege of having tougher standard in sports (tennis, golf).
17.)I must stand up for my manhood at all times and risk bodily harm.
18.)I have the privilege of having the laws and courts back women in any accusatory domestic violence case.
19.)I get to pay to go to a club while my date gets in free.
20.)I get to pay for all her drinks and her dinner if we have another date.
21.)I get the privilege of having her decide when, where and how we have sex.
22.)I get the privilege of going through sensitivity training when I’m too young to even know what it is.
23.)I get the privilege of accepting homosexuality even when I don’t.
24.)I get the privilege of going up against affirmative actions policies when I try to get a job or a promotion.
25.)I get the privilege of having the role model of Homer Simpson.
26.)I must drive a nice car and live in a model home.
27.)I must now share the housework even though I already do the yardwork and work more hours per week than my mate.
28.)I get the privilege of getting called “misogynist” when I compain about anything-female.
Yes it’s so GOOD be a male! And that’s what I came up with in fifteen minutes.
With the exception of number 23 (eh?), 28 (MRA hysteria), 27 (Government’s big on enforcing that one), 24, 22, 21 (you’d have it any other way? really?) and perhaps 10, have you thought of why these things apply to men? (Or supposedly do?)
Sure ain’t feminism’s fault.
Did you even read this part of the original post?
I am not denying that the system hurts men. On the contrary, I’d argue that living in a sexist gender-role system harms men significantly – although it also gives them privileges.
Geeze, Bike A Lot, what country/society are you living in? Let’s take a look at your list:
1) Women also have that privilege these days. Men also have the option not to join the military.
2) Is that because of equal rights laws? I believe that it is just a physical reality and not actually a “privilege” any more than having a vagina is a “privilege”.
3) I feel very, very sorry that you believe this to be true. It is certainly not true in my life.
4) Can you point that law out to me?
5) I don’t have enough knowledge to comment one way or the other.
6) I don’t, and I seem to do OK.
7) See #2
8) This is, if not self-inflicted, not a result of any pro-woman law or attitude.
9) I believe that statistics show women to suffer from depression more than men, but I could be wrong. If you can’t tell anybody about it, that’s your own problem. I have no problem telling people when I am upset.
10) I’ll leave this one to others.
11) I feel so sorry for you. That must be difficult. There are times in my life where a woman is “the strong one.”
12) I feel so sorry for you. That must create incredible strain on you. I cry when and where I need to – and I haven’t suffered for it.
13) And that is the fault of women’s rights and feminism how? I would think that is the fault of homophobes.
14) At home, my wife is Mr. Fix-It. All the tools belong to her. Me? I hate that stuff & I’m not very good at it. I haven’t suffered for this situation.
15) Wow, your experience with women must be very limited. There aren’t nearly enough models to go around.
16) And this effects your life & your equality in some way? Please elaborate.
17) I never feel the need to stand up for my “manhood”. I would certainly never risk bodily harm to stand up for it, nor do I see that I am somehow required to.
18) You might want to look up the statistics on this one.
19) If that is the agreement between you and your date. I’ve never had that problem. Although, to be fair, society does seem to expect it (and has expected it even before the days of “women’s lib”)
20) See #19
21) That seems so weird. In all of my relationships, we have decided when, where and how often to have sex.
22) Really? All, most or a significant percentage of men are required to go through sensitivity training? When was this instituted?
23) I feel so bad that you feel ashamed to reveal your bigotry. No. Really.
24) Yes, men are just not allowed to become CEO’s the way they used to be.
25) You think Homer Simpson is a role model? Dude, that’s a cartoon. Are you telling me that my role model was Quick Draw McGraw?
26) What happens if you don’t? I haven’t had any problems as a result of not doing that, nor has anybody that I know well enough to discuss these things with.
27) Yeah, housework sucks. Anything to get somebody else to do it, huh?
28) It depends what kind of “female” things you complain about. But come to think of it, I can think of anything “female” that I can complain about. Maybe you can be more specific
One more thing about this host of this blog Ampersand :
It is not a “victimizing”? position to acknowledge that injustice exists; on the contrary, without that acknowledgement it isn’t possible to fight injustice.
Ampersand called into a men’s show called Glenn Sacks last Sunday night to deride the Men’s movement. He jumped on the host’s bandwagon, a Mr. Swytzer or something like that and made the asseration that men shouldn’t blame anything outside thereselves like the laws, society for their problems but for men to look at themselves first. So his above statement is Hypocrisy. It’s OK for women to fight injustice but it ISN’T OK for men to fight injustice?
Bike a Lot, I’m confident that’s an inaccurate summary of what I said on Glenn’s show. However, don’t take my word for it: it’s simple enough to go to Glenn’s site and listen to the recorded archive of the show. (UPDATE: or read the transcript.)
Amp, I am sorry I sent all this malarkey your way. I just liked your list so much that I thought it deserved some linkage… you’re right, of course, it’s going to fall on deaf ears among the MRAs.
Not a problem, Hugo – I’ve got a pretty thick skin for insults from MRAs. (Not all MRAs are insulting, of course, but many are.)
“I get the privilege to die in a war.”
Been pointed out: not only do women serve in the military, many, many women, children and older people have ALWAYS been killed in wars–and often without even a chance, due to the fact that they are usually unarmed, unlike military personnel. Where on earth did you get the idea that it was only soldiers who died in wars?
“I get the privilege to die six years earlier than a female.”
Are you actually suggesting that women are somehow responsible for this????
“I must make more money than my female mate otherwise I’m not enough.”
And again, who exactly started that stupid idea? I’ll give you a hint: it wasn’t women. I’ll also clue you into another fact: feminists think that this is a stupid, unfair mentality to have, too, and in fact, many of them have been fighting for decades to change the way society views earning as a measure of personal worth.
“I must pay for any divorce for any reason.”
Maybe where you live, but that is certainly not true everywhere. In fact, I’ve read many reports which note that divorce leaves far, far more women than men under the poverty line.
“I must pay for child support even when I don’t get to see the kids.”
Firstly, your kids are not consumer goods which you buy, therefore it’s only fair you get to “use” them. Secondly, the entire reason that mothers have usually got custody of the children is because childcare has been traditionally seen as a boring, messy, worthless task, and only women, with our “maternal instincts” and general lack of ability for rational thought, were the only ones suited to do it. In other words, sexist society dumped the kids on mummy because daddy was too big and important to do such shitty, thankless work, and now society is turning round and trying to make out that it was the Big Bad Feminists who made the system so unfair. (And, btw, I’d like to add that I personally don’t think children or childcare is boring or worthless–I emphatically do not–just that this is the way it’s been seen for ages.)
“I must have an athletic body and must excell in all sports.”
Oh please, just LOOK at the vast majority of men around you, even (hell, ESPECIALLY) the ones in power: exactly how many of them can this said to be true of? Ummm…….damn few, if any. Hell, even Arnie Schwarzenegger isn’t as musclebound as he used to be, now that he’s in politics. In fact, in the past few photos I’ve seen of him, he was looking rather tubby. Donald Trump? Bill Gates? Dubya? Come on. The whole idea is crap and patently untrue. Even most male TV or movie stars don’t fit the mould. Outside of a handful of Brad Pitts, you can come up with tons of overweight and/or unathletic actors who seem to be doing quite well, thank you. And as for guys in Real Life: well, let’s just say that most of the guys I know don’t seem to worrying overmuch about their appearance or athletic ability………again, not that I’m saying they should, just noting that your point was false.
“I get the privilege of getting more of : strokes, heart disease and cancer than my female equivalent.”
Again, this is exactly WHOSE fault?????
“I get the privilege of being more likely to commit suicide tens time more than a female.”
Yes tragic, but we could also make a damn good argument that it is exactly the stupid rules of patriarchy that lead to this………………as well as likely playing at least some sort of role in men’s earlier deaths in general and the whole stroke/heart disease thing. I keep telling men: feminism is your FRIEND, it will actually help GET RID of all those ridiculous, impossible pressures put on you.
“I get the privilege of suffering from depression six times more than a female, and I also get the privilege of not being able to tell anybody about it.”
Well, stop buying into the whole macho thang, and learn that expressing your feelings doesn’t make you “weak” and “girly” (and, while you’re at it, you might even try on the idea that “girly” isn’t a negative thing). And yes, as pointed out above, it is actually women who suffer from depression more than men.
“I now get the privilege to get fewer educational degrees than a female.”
This one is absolute shite. Untrue as hell. Women may be doing more degrees than they were before, but to suggest that men are being locked out of higher education is a crock. And, I will also note that doing these degrees doesn’t actually help women much as we are still paid considerably less for the same work as men are.
“I get the privilege of having to be strong at all times in any condition.”
This one always burns me: who the hell made it up, because it sure as FUCK isn’t true. Men have always been free to flee just about any situation they didn’t feel like dealing with, whether by abandoning their families, going off to sea/the road/whatever–hell, even if it was just getting a mistress on the side so they had somewhere to escape their families–while women have been stuck dealing with the consequences. This is like the “only men die in wars” crap: SO untrue.
“I get the privilege of not being able to cry at any and all times.”
Oh what, and I get to? If I cry in public, I’m showing the world I really am too weak and useless to really cut it in the world. If I cry in front of my friends, family or lover, I’m being “manipulative”, trying to “guilt” people into feeling sorry for me and doing what I want…………..or else again, I’m just proving how pathetic I really am.
“I get the privilege of being suspected of being homosexual if not married.”
Yuh-huh: and *I* get the privilege of being thought either a lesbian, an unnatural, unwomanly freak, or just too much of a dog if not married. Boy, aren’t I lucky?
“I get the privilege of being a Mr. Fix It when I’m at home.”
And, if I were dumb enough to buy into a mainstream relationship, I’d get the privilege of having to fix everyone’s emotional state (without ever, ever asking for any support in return, of course), plus being a scullery maid, full-time cook and nurse. Face it: every study ever done on this topic has clearly shown that women work more than men, full stop. And anyway, isn’t it YOUR damn home, too? Who should be taking care of it, if not you? If you don’t want to put up the shelves, either pay someone to do it, or do without shelves. But don’t ask your partner to do it, because she’s already working twice the number of hours you do.
“I must date models at all times.”
Again, that’s the patriarchy talking. If you don’t like it, help get rid of it.
“I get the privilege of having tougher standard in sports (tennis, golf).”
Oh, well I thought that was because you men just WERE so superior at everything? Once again: it was MEN who made that rule. Take your complaints to them.
“I must stand up for my manhood at all times and risk bodily harm.”
And I must risk bodily harm at all times simply for being born with a vagina.
“I have the privilege of having the laws and courts back women in any accusatory domestic violence case.”
There are other people here who work in these areas and who will no doubt supply at the data necessary to rip this one to shreds, but I would like to add that the ignorance displayed in that comment is jawdroppingly horrifying.
“I get to pay to go to a club while my date gets in free.”
Only if the goons on the door consider her cute enough. And again: if you think feminists applaud such policies, you are very wrong.
“I get to pay for all her drinks and her dinner if we have another date.”
Only if you choose to go out with a certain sort of woman: I have NEVER allowed such a thing to happen in any of my relationships. Everything is always split 50/50, unless it’s a thing like a birthday, when one of us invites the other, or when one of us is going through a financial rough patch. But that applies equally.
“I get the privilege of having her decide when, where and how we have sex.”
Oh jeez, you actually have to treat her as (oh god, the injustice) HUMAN? You actually have to take into account her feelings? Oh, the infamy! And, of course, if she suggests you have sex at a time or place that is undesirable for you, you are FORCED to comply at all times, right? You never, ever have any say.
I’d like to add that I find this statement beyond creepy: it sounds to me like you’re saying it’s unfair that your sexual partners have the right to say “No” if they don’t wish to have sex.
“I get the privilege of going through sensitivity training when I’m too young to even know what it is.”
I have no idea what this is about. Please explain.
“I get the privilege of accepting homosexuality even when I don’t.”
Ehhh???? What are you saying here? That you are forced to accept that there are homosexuals in the world? And this is a “men’s rights” issue why? Or are you suggesting that gay men are somehow not “real” men? But I thought that your big gripe was that you were forced into acting like a “Real Man” and that caused you pain? Now you’re defending the idea? I’m very confused. What is it exactly that you want?
“I get the privilege of going up against affirmative actions policies when I try to get a job or a promotion.”
From what I’ve been reading on the topic, it’s pretty much been proven that straight white middle-class Anglo males are still dominating in all the prestige fields, so cheer up. You still run the world.
“I get the privilege of having the role model of Homer Simpson.”
Now this one is REALLY surreal. Of course, there are no other role models anywhere for white guys other than Homer. Absolutely none.
“I must drive a nice car and live in a model home.”
And so must I. What exactly is the point here?
“I must now share the housework even though I already do the yardwork and work more hours per week than my mate.”
See above. If your mate is at all typical of Western women, she is already working roughly twice what you do. So, be a nice guy and take up your share for once, will you?
“I get the privilege of getting called “misogynist”? when I compain about anything-female.”
Um, yeah, that’s kind of like a racist complaining that he gets criticised for complaining about people of colour. You know, if the shoe fits and all that.
OK, I somehow managed to miss this last night, but…..doesn’t anyone think that:
“I must have an athletic body and must excell in all sports…I get the privilege of having to be strong at all times in any condition…” and “I get the privilege of not being able to cry at any and all times.”
being followed up with:
“I get the privilege of having the role model of Homer Simpson.”
is pretty darn hilarious?
Bean said: “If he also thinks they are oppressive, I can’t understand why he wouldn’t A) actively be fighting against those stereotypes and B) joining the pro-feminist fight which is already doing that work.”
Yeah, I’ve been wondering about that too: seeing as many of his complaints are the EXACT same ones that most feminists have, I don’t get why we are being seen as “The Enemy”.
and who says Homer Simpson isn’t a good role model?
take away the over-the-top, comic child abuse (which really sounds like a non sequitur) and you’re left with perhaps the best example of what a man should be on television in the past decade (and then some).
dispite appearances, he’s actually in fairly good physical condition; he runs around way to much for someone who isn’t in decent shape. he’s a devoted husband; unless they’ve done something wild in the last few seasons, which I haven’t seen to much of, he’s never once cheated on, verbally or physically abused Marge. Dispite jokes about his sloth, he’s a man with a high-school education who works full shifts (and in more than one episode, is forced to take rediculous overtime) to support his family. Marge IS a stay-at-home mom, but there’s no evidence that Homer actually insists that’s the way it should be, and he has, in fact, encouraged her the times she has entered the workforce.
additionally, he’s a caring devoted father (aside from said comic child abuse directed particularly at Bart). He does everything he can to get the best possible for his children, and when he can’t live up to some of their more outrageous demands, he does what he can to help them deal with the disappointment. Case in point: the episode when Lisa got a horse, and Homer worked a second job with triple shifts at the Kwik-e-mart to pay for it.
sure, there are aLOT of “dumb” jokes at his expense, but through various episodes, he’s proven himself to be friendly, helpful, charismatic and even insightful.
Perhaps most importantly of all, he has a sense of humor about himself, and takes the insults and indignities of life in stride.
yeah, he’s a terrible role model. much better to pick someone like Ronnie Reagan, right?
“I get the privilege of having the role model of Homer Simpson.”?
Why Homer? Why not Barney, or Apu, or Ned Flanders or Mayor Quimby?
because homer actually is a role model, instead of a one dimensional joke as Barney, Apu, and Mayor Quimby.
Ned’s a pretty good role model. Honestly, if more evangelicals in the country were like Ned, we’d be a much better place. He’s got deep felt, sincere beliefs, frequently at odds with the rest of the community, and expresses that opinion, but he isn’t rude about it.
he does believe he’s right and everyone else is wrong, but he also recognizes personal choice, and that people are allowed to choose to go to hell, as he sees it.
If Flanders took over for Pat Robertson, I’d watch the 700 Club.
you know, if I were taking ANY classes on US pop culture, “Simpsons characters as role models and the utopian state” would make an interesting thesis.
“I must date models at all times.”
Snarky remark #1: Wow. Even during work hours?
Snarky remark #2: This is a burden indeed, if he secretly lusts after Linda Tripp.
(disclaimer: Linda Tripp does not deserve to be made fun of for her looks. She deserves to be mocked for a whole host of other things.)
Hello, my name is Kayla. I’m 17 and I’m part of a youth driven Liberal Blog called, the Bloodless Revolution. What we are trying to do is promote acceptance and awareness for our peers about the world we live in and hopefully inspire a more open-minded approach to life. The teenage years are where people start to look for who they are independent of their household and my friends and I want to be part of that search. Teens are more likely to listen to their peers then they are to adults. I know that you probabaly think that a lot of what we say is very naive and that is why we are constantly looking for eyeopening posts to place in our Blog.
I really like this list and I think it would bring out a lot of little tendencies that we do on a day-to-day basis and not even notice. I know that a lot of this list will be lurking in the back of my mind. I personally had always viewed racism and sexism as individual acts. I forgot about the whole system and structure of stereotyping and the effects it has on the whole infrastucture of society. I would like to post this list in my blog. I would give you full credit but since my blog in completely non-profit I can’t pay you. I could have simply just copied and pasted it but I would really prefer to receive your permission since you took the time and energy to create it.
The blog address is http://bloodlessrevolution.blogspot.com/
And since I forgot our group address, hehe, you can email your reply to my email account- lostandhellbound@hotmail.com
“and who says Homer Simpson isn’t a good role model?
take away the over-the-top, comic child abuse (which really sounds like a non sequitur) and you’re left with perhaps the best example of what a man should be on television in the past decade (and then some).”
Actually, I was thinking that too: he’s probably one of the the most loving fathers and husbands that has ever been shown on TV, despite the flaws (heavens, FLAWS! can’t have that when depicting human beings, can we?). I mean, I personally wouldn’t want to be married to him, but when you compare him to the other alternatives shown in TV or movies, he comes off looking pretty damn good.
Homer isn’t bad. It rather boggles the mind to think of him as a role model, per se, but he isn’t a bad person, just a comedic figure in a tradition that stretches all the way back to the ancient Greeks. And there are many other recurring male characters in town, including a pastor, a doctor, a principal, a superintendent, a janitor, a jazz musician (now deceased), a comic-book geek/entrepreneur, a mayor, a millionaire, his assistant, a bartender, workers at the nuclear plant, a brilliant mad scientist, an attack lawyer, a quack lawyer, the Itchy and Scratchy CEO….
Can anyone think of any female characters who aren’t housewives (Marge, Helen Lovejoy, Mrs. Flanders (can’t remember her given name), Mrs. Skinner) or schoolteachers (Edna Krabappel, Ms. Hoover)? I came up with Patty and Selma, the vituperative, hideous, hairy celibates. I remember four one-offs: Mindy, Homer’s coworker and erstwhile temptress, Belle the brothel owner, Lurlene, the country-music singer who’s been in two episodes, and Marge’s psychiatrist. Oh, and then there was Darlene’s mother in the Thelma and Louise episode, but I can’t remember if her job was ever discussed. I know that Marge entered the police force for one episode. And I know that in groups of working people–nuclear plant inspectors, CPS employees, evaluation committees–there are usually women, or at least one woman, but they’re never named or given many lines.
Oh, I’m sorry. Here you were all discussing male oppression, and I’ve gone off on a totally unrelated tangent.
The arguments from the men’s rights activists against the male privilege checklist reminds me of a segment from “Monty Python’s Life of Brian.” It’s so appropriate.
Stan (Eric Idle): “I want to be one.”
John Cleese: What?
Stan: I want to be a woman. From now on, I want you all to call me “Loretta.”
John Cleese: Whaaaaat?
Stan: It’s my right as a man.
Judith: Well, why do you want to be “Loretta,” Stan?
Stan: I want to have babies.
John Cleese: You want to have BABIES?
Stan: It’s every man’s right to have babies if he wants them.
John Cleese: But… you can’t HAVE babies!
Stan: Don’t you oppress me!
John Cleese: I’m not oppressing you, Stan. You haven’t got a womb. Where is the fetus going to gestate? You going to keep it in a box?
Judith: Here, I’ve got an idea. Supposed you agree that you can’t actually have babies, not having a womb, which is nobody’s fault, not even the Romans, but you can have the RIGHT to have babies!
Michael Palin: Good idea, Judith. We shall fight the oppressors for your
RIGHT to have babies. Brother, sister.
John Cleese: What’s the point? What’s the point of fighting for his right to have babies, when HE CAN’T HAVE BABIES???
Michael Palin: It’s symbolic of our struggle against oppression!
John Cleese: It’s symbolic of his struggle against reality.
A partial list of non-homemakers:
Amber the Squishee-refill lady.
Bernice Hibbert, job unspecified but she always wears suits
Brandine Spuckler is a farmer, has worked as a stripper
Mindy Simmons, chair-warmer in sector 7G
Edna Krabappel, 4th grade teacher
Audrey McConnell, 3rd grade teacher
Elizabeth Hoover, 2nd grade teacher
Mrs. Blumenstein, teacher, debate team coach
Mrs. Cummerdale, gym teacher
Mrs. Pummelhorse, gym teacher
Mrs. Holmes-Indigo, science teacher
Marge Simpson, realtor, cop, teacher, waitress, others
Unnamed Scottish janitress at magnet school
Mrs. Muntz, waitress
Mary Bailey, state governor
Constance Harm, judge
Roxie, secretary to Mayor Quimby
Lindsey Naegle, entrepreneur
“Mom”, of Mom and Pop’s hardware
Ms. No Means No, character on Krusty’s show
Lurleen Lumpkin, country star
Rachel Jordan, Christian musician
Patty Bouvier, DMV drone
Selma Bouvier, DMV drone
J. Loren Pryor, psychiatrist
Molly Cosmos, plastic surgeon
unnamed scientist at the pharmaceutical company
Belle, owner of the burlesque house
I’ll readily concede that the show gives a lot more air time to male characters. Of course, the show also mocks pretty much everyone who is given airtime, so that’s a mixed blessing for the XY crowd.
I do notice with approval that the show shows women at every level of the working world, from the very bottom rung to the very top, with lots of representation in the professions and the business world. Yeah, there are a lot of female teachers; there are a lot of female teachers out here in the unanimated world, too.
This is the era of acceptable sexism in the form of feminist whiners. There is no “privilege.” We earn what we have. I come from Irish ancestors who were treated lower than African freedmen in places like New York during the settling of America. They overcame it. They didn’t whine looking for a handout or sympathy. There is a big push on women’s health issues despite an average life span greater than a man’s. I was a Union Steward and saw many EEO and Sexual Harrassment hearings. Most were filed by women against men. The men would walk into the hearings and be declared guilty without even getting an opportunity to speak. They lost time and money often on baseless or ludicrous charges. Women are favored in divorces with custody and support regardless of their fitness to be parents.
The Armed Services are all voluntary but only women can be relieved of that obligation by simply getting pregnant.
Those of you who think we men are “priviledged” need to grow a backbone and fight for what you want to achieve. If you get it and find you have no time for marriage and subsequently no children and discover your life lacks because of it, don’t whine about it. Remember the old saying, ‘Be careful what you wish for, you might just get it.”
I see nothing wrong with women going out and being the breadwinners. We “priviledged men” have had it pressed upon us for decades. I’ll stay home and keep house and then bitch at you endlessly about what’s wrong with the house and what chores you should be helping with and bore you with all the gripes about what the fellow next door said at the Barber shop.
We’ll ignore your sexual needs and treat strangers nicer than we do you.
We’ll spend hours on the phone talking about your inadequacies with our friends. You can spend hours at work with an ungrateful boss and lazy coworkers, then come home after fighting traffic and have more work to do and then get turned away for intimacy because we’re not “in the mood.”
In short, we’ll trade places with you.
Wow, Daniel. That is simply the most complete, best troll post I’ve ever seen. You didn’t miss a cliche. That’s impressive.
It’s also fairly ludicrous.
We’ll ignore your sexual needs and treat strangers nicer than we do you.
You…you want to turn into my ex-husband?!
mythago, I weep for you.
because, if you think about it, for Daniel to turn into your ex-husband, you would have to marry him first. Which, from the sounds of it, would be the sort of peaches-and-cream life undeserved by any woman short of Ilsa Koch.
as I assume his thing about ignoring sexual needs was supposed to be a jab at women, I suppose I have to pose a question.
What the hell is wrong with Daniel? I, for one, have my sexual needs nicely fulfilled. but if I were dating someone who wasn’t, I’m pretty sure I’d go looking for someone else who was more interested in fulfilling them.
so he must not particularly have much to offer, if he can’t expect to find someone he has compatibility with.
or maybe he’s just expecting too much, like “he must date super models” and as such, knows beggars can’t be choosers.
mean, yes. but trolls deserve it.
“Edna Krabappel, 4th grade teacher
Audrey McConnell, 3rd grade teacher
Elizabeth Hoover, 2nd grade teacher
Mrs. Blumenstein, teacher, debate team coach
Mrs. Cummerdale, gym teacher
Mrs. Pummelhorse, gym teacher
Mrs. Holmes-Indigo, science teacher”
Firstly, Piny’s question was “Can anyone think of any female characters who aren’t housewives (Marge, Helen Lovejoy, Mrs. Flanders (can’t remember her given name), Mrs. Skinner) or schoolteachers (Edna Krabappel, Ms. Hoover)?”
Secondly, most of the other characters you’ve mentioned are either one-offs, or appear only very, very occasionally, unlike, say, Lennie & Carl, Barney Gumble, Mr. Burns & Smithers, Apu, Comic Book Guy.
I love the Simpsons, but that doesn’t make me blind to the fact that it does engage in that time-honoured TV tradition of completely underrepresenting females within its world.
“The Armed Services are all voluntary but only women can be relieved of that obligation by simply getting pregnant.”
Yeah, we all know that pregnancy is simply stroll through the park.
“Those of you who think we men are “priviledged”? need to grow a backbone and fight for what you want to achieve. ”
Uhhhhh…..we ARE. That’s why you’re so upset with us, because we refuse to accept the status quo, remember?
“If you get it and find you have no time for marriage and subsequently no children and discover your life lacks because of it, don’t whine about it.”
Got new for ya: For decades now, there have been studies which suggest that unmarried women are generally HAPPIER than married women. Also, and this may be a big shock: not all men are so insecure about themselves that feminists frighten them away. Though I support any woman’s right to be happily single, I myself am quite happily married to a self-confident, nonthreatened man. And, this is the REALLY scary bit: we’re actually VERY GOOD FRIENDS to each other. Sorry to terrify you with that, but you need to know that these things do happen.
“Remember the old saying, ‘Be careful what you wish for, you might just get it.”?”
What, guys like you will stop being so scared and will finally accept that women are human????? Promise?
“I see nothing wrong with women going out and being the breadwinners. We “priviledged men”? have had it pressed upon us for decades. I’ll stay home and keep house and then bitch at you endlessly about what’s wrong with the house and what chores you should be helping with and bore you with all the gripes about what the fellow next door said at the Barber shop.”
Yeesh. Look, if you are speaking from the voice of experience here, well, all I can say is don’t blame all women just because you chose to hook up with a frivolous airhead. Maybe if you didn’t find strong, competent women so terrifying, you might find a better partner? However, there’s something about the above paragraph that just screams, “Media-derived stereotype”, so I’m guessing that you aren’t even actually married or living with a partner, and this is simply how you imagine women to be. Y’know, actually getting out and having ACTUAL HUMAN CONTACT with women would probably get rid off all those silly ideas.
“We’ll ignore your sexual needs and treat strangers nicer than we do you.”
In my experience, that’s what most men ALREADY do. (?????????)
“We’ll spend hours on the phone talking about your inadequacies with our friends.”
Yeah, right: that’s a major way for me to pass my time.
” You can spend hours at work with an ungrateful boss and lazy coworkers, then come home after fighting traffic and have more work to do”
That’s already how most WOMEN live their lives. I do have a serious question: where do you MRA types get the ridiculous idea that most women don’t have jobs? Even amongst my married friends, even those with kids, I don’t know anyone who doesn’t work full-time.
“and then get turned away for intimacy because we’re not “in the mood.”?
Again, seriously, this sort of comment betrays just how creepy the whole Men’s Rights thing is: apparently, to these guys, sex on demand–no matter how the other person is feeling–is a male “right”, and “withholding” sex (or, in Real World talk, just not wanting sex) is somehow an evil women’s plot to defraud men of something that is “rightfully theirs”. These guys have literally no conception that a woman’s vagina actually belongs to her and is not the property of whatever male happens to be around and wanting it at any given time.
This is deeply disturbing, disgusting, and shows just how repulsive the minds of these men truly are.
The Armed Services are all voluntary but only women can be relieved of that obligation by simply getting pregnant.
Not anymore; pregnancy doesn’t result in an automatic discharge these days. In fact, a number of the women killed in Iraq left children behind.
If you get it and find you have no time for marriage and subsequently no children and discover your life lacks because of it, don’t whine about it. Remember the old saying, ‘Be careful what you wish for, you might just get it
Wait a minute! Does this mean that men don’t get married and have families? I better call my dad and tell him I’m just a figment of his imagination, as is his wife.
Of course, you know that all us women are housewives. And no woman works hard ever. I myself don’t have a full-time job or a house to look after. And every time I complain about how I hate talking on the phone after a friend, male or female, calls just to chit-chat, I’m just lying to myself.
And of course if you don’t get married, you can’t have children–it’s just a biological fact!
Oddly enough, yesterday we popped over to a neighbors’ /friends’ house for the first time since the Ms. had the baby. Yeah, I thought the baby was cute and all– And I congratulated the Ms. for navigating through the long pregnancy and labor with both her and the Mr.’s sense of humor intact. I was happy for them that the baby appears healthy, though a bit on the small side aparently. And yet… and yet… I still was completely unstirred by any desire whatsoever to have a baby of my own. Whatever my life lacks for, I don’t think that it’s pregnancy and birth that would give it meaning.
Considering how overwrought MRA’s seem to get on this board, perpetually whining about how one misplaced sperm ruins their lives forever– not a woman’s life– just theirs, you’d think they’d want to find out which cluster of brain cells in my head supposedly created this “unnatural” lack of desire for babies. You’d think they’d want to isolate it, grow it, and run around slipping it into the soft drinks of unwary young girls.
But then I guess they’d have one less “threat” to hold over my/our heads. Tsk. Poor things.
Oh, they want women to have lots and lots of babies. Just not theirs.
Mmm, non-maternal-instinct-substance. {Drool}
I have a personal theory that feminism and increased choice for women will end up reducing women’s overall participation in the workforce.
Unproven but reasonable assumption: at least part of your unstirredness-towards-motherhood is genetic.
Broad historical fact: in conditions of survival, women with such tendencies passed them on to the next generation. Every womb was necessary for survival; every womb had the babies it could have, and the desire of the woman owning the womb were of limited impact.
Broad contemporary fact: we’re not in conditions of survival, and women who don’t want to have babies don’t have to have babies.
Under survival conditions, feminism and women’s choice could have very limited impact, if any. Doesn’t matter that you want to join the hunting party; the tribe needs you back at the cave, making babies, and so the elders (male and female) coerce you if need be. Under modern conditions, feminism can have a huge impact. The womb-controllers can relax; they have enough volunteer wombs and don’t need to be fascist about things.
So under the new regime of relative freedom and choice, you can choose not to be a mother. Which means that your genes don’t get passed on; your line ends.
Over time, natural selection does its simple-minded job and the women who desire motherhood and yearn for babies are the women who have all the babies. The women who don’t desire babies, don’t have them, and their genetic contribution to the species ceases.
We end up with a female population almost all of whom have the “have a baby” genes and almost none of whom have the “I don’t want a squalling brat” genes. At which point there’s still freedom of choice, earned by the labor of previous generations of feminists, but women are only making one choice, foregoing paid work and instead being homemakers.
At least, during the baby years. There would still be lots of women working, they’d just be doing it (mostly) after they had their kids. (And of course some women would have to work for economic reasons, but that’s always the case.) Freedom of potential choice leads to a reduction in the range of actual choices made.
Sometimes I am still shocked at how men can live side-by-side with women day in and day out and still be completely oblivious.
It’s the result of careful training, Amanda.
I have a personal theory that feminism and increased choice for women will end up reducing women’s overall participation in the workforce.
Except that your theory seems to be the opposite of what’s actually happening–women are increasing their overall participation the workforce, but limiting their childbearing.
And choosing not to be a mother, i.e. to physically bear children, doesn’t mean “your line ends.” For starters, if you have siblings who have children, your genes get passed on.
Evolution also never required “yearning for babies.” Reliable contraception’s been around less than a century. We have a yearning for sex; that led to the babies all on its own. (Evolution’s also kind of Rube Goldberg-y sometimes.) Women who yearned for babies had them; so did women who didn’t want kids so much. Not wanting to get knocked up is not contraception, as women throughout history have been sadly made aware. There’s no reason at all to think there is a “baby yearing” gene, other than the modern tendency to think everything humans ever do or want has a “gene,” as if we were computer programs who can’t perform a task not hard-coded into us.
[sigh]
Is there an anthropologist in the house who might explain to Robert that there are tribes in which women both hunt/gather and nuture offspring ?
Robert, I was being sarcastic with my brain-juice comment. I think a desire to not spawn –like the rest of a human’s personality– is likely the result of both nature and nurture. I don’t do evolutionary pop psych, except as a joke.
P.S.– Robert, what in the blazes is the point of your whole “Nyah nyah your type will die out while mine goes on and takes over the world” schtick, anyway ? Do you think that somehow I’m supposed to be broken-hearted at this (totally baseless) theory of yours ? Well, forget it. Even if I believed your theory, I would never limit myself to believing that the only way a person can leave a legacy on Earth is through replication of their own genes. Uh uh. No way.
It’s idle speculation, wondering about the impact of changes to behavior.
Any emotional content you perceive is added by you.
No one is in any danger of dying out–most people, feminist or not, have children. The biggest threat to human reproduction is rising infertility in both men and women, not politics.
Any emotional content you perceive is added by you.
Oh, Thank You. I’ll remember to use that disclaimer next time your dander is up over my delivery on some delicate topic or another.
Robert, I know you’re a smart guy and I know you have a basic understanding of evolution. So I admit that I can’t help wonder whether the actual idle speculation is “how much of a rise can I get out of people here if I post this?”.
Not a rise so much as a reasoned response; whether “that won’t work, silly, here’s why” or “hmmm, what about x y z”.
Have you seen this? It’s a “Female/Feminist Privilege Checklist” and quite entertaining. I happened to blunder into this newsgroup (soc.men) one day and got caught up in some pointless arguing. Not that there isn’t some truth to some of the stuff there — it’s just hard to find it in amongst all the name-calling that goes on.
But see – now that I’ve found this blog, I can get rid of that newsgroup like some kind of pesky rash and never have to be called a (I kid you not) “festering femmeroid” (sic) again.
Robert has a point: I mean, after all, men and women with the gay gene rarely end up having children, and now you hardly hear anything about there being any gay people in society. there what, like 3 gay people left anymore? they’re obviously an endangered species.
obviously, any gene that results in humans producing fewer offspring exit the genepool, and thus, within a few years, no one will even have a job, men or women. everyone will just eat and fuck, and our robots will make sure we all get food.
I know that I have a genetic predisposition to having a robo-butler wait on my needs while hedonistically indulging in my sexual appitites.
Bluesmamma, did you mean this?
http://niceguy.dearingfilm.com/Checklist.php
A… “rebuttal” to amp’s list, then one of his own.
A delightful read (personally, I don’t think he’s worth the energy to argue with… the whole “pearls to swine” concept).
Oh, God, he even calls himself a ‘nice’ guy. Bonus!
Robert’s post is too odd for me to not address:
So under the new regime of relative freedom and choice, you can choose not to be a mother. Which means that your genes don’t get passed on; your line ends.
First of all, Robert, you’re assuming that there is such a gene. Probably not, since my generation is composed of the offspring of women who were entering their childbearing years at the beginning of the sexual revolution, thus we’re children of women who chose to have children, thus we should logically have that gene already.
Second of all, you’re dismissing a world of factors in your “When given the choice, women would rather stay home with their children” assumption. Fewer mothers may want to stay home with their children. The concept of “having it all” (children and a job you love) is still considered relatively unacceptable, but it may not be that way for much longer. More women may graduate with college and graduate degrees and get better jobs that require a higher education. Over time mothers may feel more comfortable with the high quality of child care that’s available. Employers may institute more child care programs within their companies; the federal government may fund more child care initiatives. Also, just because you choose to be a stay-at-home parent doesn’t mean you believe that sexism in the workplace in any form is reasonable. Nor does it make sense that fewer women in the workplace will lead to fewer feminists.
Third of all, you’re implying that those of us who choose not to have children do so for political reasons–that is, that we should be unhappy about the possibility that our actions will lead to a world that’s somehow worse than what we hope to make it. I can assure you that that’s simply untrue. I couldn’t care less if every other woman in the world wanted to be a mother; that would not affect my decision. I didn’t decide against having children because I’m a feminist, or because I support reproductive rights, or because I think the world would be a better place with fewer people in it. It’s because I don’t want to care for a child. I don’t advocate my decision any more than I advocate motherhood–although I believe it should be less stigmatized. And again, there’s no evidence that this “worse world” will actually happen. (It could be bad in a lot of other ways, though…)
Freedom of potential choice leads to a reduction in the range of actual choices made.
I don’t understand this at all. Manufacturers of consumer products believe the exact opposite. The company that recently released vanilla- and citrus-flavored toothpastes is, I’m sure, banking on enough consumer interest to make their endeavor profitable. And even if that doesn’t happen, it sure won’t persuade people who currently enjoy whitening toothpaste to abandon it for a traditional cavity-fighting one.
Until recently, women were encouraged to stay home. When that pressure was relaxed a bit, more women began to work. And as parenthood + career = fulfilling life becomes a serious option for women, I expect them to take advantage of it.
46. It will never be assumed I’m someone’s secretary.
While many of these are right on the button, I would say that many of these do not apply in English society as I have experienced it, primarily those dealing with children, upbringing, and education.
This list really only applies to the men who are condescending towards women, and it will become outdated as time moves on. My boyfriend and I are in a very understanding relationship, and my experience is that, while many of these stereotypes hold true in the media and history, today’s generation is much better at ignoring things such as gender, race, age, etc. I can only imagine that future generations will become even more so.
While I am all for equal rights, I am not a feminist. Mainly because I belive that the path to equality does not lie in the formation of unequal conditions. Currently it is easier for women to get accepted to many technology oriented schools and programs, simply because they are in the minority and schools want to encourage women to enter these fields. However, if I want to study art-history or painting, does that put me at odds agains the equal rights movement?
I think that the bottom line is choice. I, and every other person, should have the choice to live how I chose. If I decide that the ‘sterotypical woman’ is the kind of woman I want to be, who are you to tell me I’m wrong. I just feel that putting all men on the defensive from the get-go may not the best way to indoctrinate ourselves into society.
BWA HA HA HA HA HA!
Excuse me while I wipe the tears of bitter mirth from my eyes.
That’s better.
Noooooo, there’s no sexism in the fine arts. Your demographic talents would be wasted in that field. You’d be doing much more for the cause if you entered a field where women haven’t already advanced to the upper echelons of the industry and the canon. I mean, you might as well become a firefighter or a Navy SEAL or an archbishop.
And you’re absolutely right, by the way, about not hurting any man’s feelings or challenging any man’s assumptions in blunt language. All of history’s successful civil rights activists understood that they’d catch way more flies with honey than with vinegar.
If I decide that the ‘sterotypical woman’ is the kind of woman I want to be, who are you to tell me I’m wrong.
Tell you you’re wrong? Heck no. It means less competition. By all means, if you want to be the kind of woman who your boyfriend or lover is dissing behind your back when we all go hang out at the bar, I wouldn’t dream of stopping you.
If our genetic makeup goes so far as to include genetic inclinations towards social or political viewpoints (and some scientists theorize that they may), then what you say may prove to be accurate, Robert. But I think some of your thinking as a tad questionable (especially the part about fewer women in the workforce.)
However, I think that a lot of what you say will play out, but because of a far simpler mechanism: religion. Look at demographic trends; on average, the American women who give birth to the most children tend to be Mormons and Catholics. The more conservative a family, the more children, the more chances to pass those values onto the next generation.
Some analysts believe that this trend is already playing a part in politics, btw. Our overall population is aging, which decreases the pool of people from which significant cultural reform is likely to come from.
Hestia:
It’s interesting though that this is what has happened.
mythago :
I’m not sure how your comment applies to Sarah’s statement. Whatever lifestyle choice a woman makes, they’re likely to marry a man who embraces it.
Whatever lifestyle choice a woman makes, they’re likely to marry a man who embraces it.
I doubt men are any less likely than women to do the “I love you, you’re perfect, now change” game. That aside, the rest of Sarah’s post was a rather broad hint that women in the sciences get there because girls are receiving special treatment, and that women should be very careful not to do anything that might upset men.
Such women aren’t likely to push themselves into the ‘man’s world’ of work, especially in male-dominated professions. That leaves less competition for me.
I agree with you there (although I dont think she meant it with the malice you imply), but I still don’t see what that has to do with husbands talking behind their spouse’s back.
If she thinks that being a ‘stereotypical woman’ assures that her stereotypical-man husband will cherish and respect her role, I wouldn’t lay money on it.
bean writes on 1/27/2005:
“Also … yes, it’s true that men are significantly more likely to be “successful”? (so to speak) at committing suicide. However, women are 4 times more likely to attempt suicide.”
Yet further proof that if you want something done right, get a man to do it.
My fiancee is the only straight person who works at a gay bar in our city. I have helped bar back, work the door, etc numerous times, and some of the stufff I have seen and been subjected to has been absolutely appalling, but that tends to be the case in this type of setting, so I try to take it all with a grain of salt.
But the latest straw, the one that made me crack completely up was a 40ish woman who stripped down naked on the dance floor in the name of women’s rights/equality. “I’ve marched in protests and parades for 20 years for women’s issues. You can’t be a true feminist unless you’re a lesbian.”
What the hell? So by becoming Lady Godiva and grinding your naked ass on the dance floor you are somehow advancing the women’s movement? And strippers get a bad name?
Oh, that opening bit ws just a joke for all of you who didn’t get it.
Well, I was thinking about steves…. IDEA? about women voting women into office and then taking over?
First thought i had was… 1/3 of all the women voters will have their vote decision beaten or abused out of them by men.
Leaving only 2/3 of the women to vote.
about 50% of all people dont vote. So pretty easily you can see
how they have already lost without the votes of men.
I mean WHY SHOULD WOMEN CHANGE IT BY THEMSELVES??
Secondly –
NO MATTER WHAT A WOMEN DOES OR SAYS OR THINKS OR VOTES, It is NEVER A WOMENS FAULT that men do the horrible things they do to women. That includes excluding women from political power.
MEN need to stop MEN from abusing women.
Steve, why dont YOU start a mens group that can get women into office?
GEt some MEN to gather some of MENS money and launch a campaign that would let women know that MEN wanted to financially support a womens movement to end politcal bias and unfairness.
I bet you would get more womens support than you thought existed.
You might even learn a thing or two about the priviliges you assume as a man. And if it was successfull I bet people would assume it was a mans efforts that made it happen.
-Male volunteer at a domestic violence shelter for women.
I was raised in a feminist household. I’m pretty ambivalent as an adult about activism. I’ve yet to see much evidence that it works.
Basically my view is this: Women loose their rights because they are White, Black, Christian, Muslim, etc first. Then they are women, and maybe then they are people. The entire Civil Rights movement relies on the assumption that everyone is a person first (therefore equal) and then what ever minority group later.
As a note, I do not get PMS. Ever. Never have. Not a genetically strong trait in my family. So having men assume I’m PMSing if I am upset makes me fume. Women do this to other women also. Bad.
As if everyone else hasn’t already made better points, but it’s just my view.
“I’m pretty ambivalent as an adult about activism. I’ve yet to see much evidence that it works. ”
I’m a little baffled as to how anyone can say that. Women did not have rights all along just as men did; neither were these rights magically handed to us one day when the male leaders suddenly slapped their foreheads and cried with one voice that women should have the same rights as men. Same as with blacks.
Any people which was thought at one point to be obviously excluded from the rights of others–namly white men–did not suddenly find those rights waiting for them one day after many hundreds of years of not having them. The only reason those rights were granted in the first place was through the activism of people who realized that as long as no one acted, the people in charge weren’t inclined to change the system.
Activism doesn’t simply work, it’s the ONLY thing that works.
So having men assume I’m PMSing if I am upset makes me fume.
The best way to respond to on-the-rag questions is to say, with amazement, “What a coincidence! I was about to ask you the very same thing.”
Oh, that opening bit ws just a joke for all of you who didn’t get it.
Oh, making an insult and then trying to cover your ass by saying “it was just a joke!”, with the insinuation that anybody objects has no sense of humor, is pretty lame. And transparent.
Crap in a hat. I am the Broken Italics Queen today.
(Skims down the list, having been linked here by a blog.)
Well, that was informative. I appreciate the heads up, though I’ve known about most of these myself for some time. I work for a fellow who’s generally a nice guy, but has this odd tendency to refer to women as “bitches,” in a “ha, ha, just serious!” sort of way. I’ve called him on it. He claims that I’m just pretending to be a gentleman because women enjoy that. He says this even when women are absent…
Particularly ironic, given that he’s gay and probably would be at least a little annoyed if I casually talked about “those faggots.”
I came to this discussion late, but I can’t let Nancy P’s dig at nursing students (post #39) slide by.
Nursing students work harder than almost any other undergrad student (I should know; I have a degree in languages, I’ve taken classes in stats and programming, done grad work in English and psychology, AND have an RN).
“Golddigging” nursing students is a myth. Nursing students who go into school hoping to meet MDs, are pretty quickly scared off by the amount of work they have to do — IF they can even get into school. Those few who do meet and marry MDs tend to be the people who met each other on the job, understand what each other have to say, and spend time working together.
Nurses work hard. But it is a profession where one can work almost anywhere, at whatever time one has available to work, for a living wage. Plus I can work until I die in some capacity, if retirement doesn’t work out.
I’m a librarian, so I know from “traditional women’s jobs.” And it’s well-known within my profession that while women are a majority of library directors, the number of men in directorship positions is grossly disproportionate to the total number of men in the field, that men tend to hold the more prestigious (i.e, higher-paying) directorships, and that women directors are paid less than men directors at the same level (large public libraries, research university libraries, four year college libraries, etc.). In a profession where the salary for people who all hold a professional degree can range from $18,000 to over $250,000, some of these discrepancies are glaring. 75-88% of librarians are women; women hold slightly more than half of the directorships in academic and public libraries.
Part of the problem is that men in the field are seen (by women and men) as somehow “special” – I don’t know how better to describe it – in the same way that stay-at-home fathers are often seen as “special” and deserving of praise. It’s as though they deserve promotion and pay simply for taking such a low-status, “woman’s” job. This frustrates and puzzles me because it happens despite the fact that libraries tend to be friendly, progressive, flexible places to work (and hotbeds of subversive activism, to boot!). Friends of mine who are social workers (both men and women) report the same sort of thing, so maybe it’s something that women and men in these “women’s” professions need to be more aware of [I hate the phrase “women’s professions” almost as much as I hate jokes about shushing people].
I left traditional librarianship to work in “knowledge management” for a corporation. Compared to what I made in academic libraries, I make a lot of money, though I hardly make fast-track corporate bucks. I still find myself ghettoized as “the librarian”, despite (or perhaps because of) the fact that I’m the only person in the department with relevant professional or academic experience, and I find myself constantly having to remind people that I didn’t get a master’s degree in the alphabet, or shelving books, but in what they mostly think of as “IT” (read: male and professional and impressive) concepts, like information organization and retrieval, and in how people seek out information. ‘Cause, you know, librarians have only been coming up with information systems for oh, the past several thousand years [/bad-day-at-work snark].
Word, Erin. Those are some of the many reasons I am no longer a librarian, although I still volunteer in the library in my kids’ school. (Somewhat snarky aside: until about 5 years ago, this library was so undervalued that most of the budget was spent solely on stuff they could get grant matching funds for – Internet access and other sexy stuff like that. Net result, parent volunteers were doing most of the book prep and cataloging. The current librarian has had to re-catalog the entire collection and told me that on her first day she discovered a Bill Clinton biography in the catalog under B for Bill.)
Erin and Lee, I can only begin to imagine the kind crap you get from people who for some reason think you must not be “good enough” for “other work.”
I’ve been working at a national chain bookstore for a while, and it’s amazing how stupid and uneducated people assume we are, despite the fact that the vast majority of us are either in, or have graduated from, college. My patrons at least have the (lame) excuse that, well, we are just hourly employees after all.
My best friend, who is a bookstore employee with a B.A. in English and a master’s in library science, would shout “Amen!” to that one, Jenny. She often strikes up conversations with customers about purchases of theirs that she’s read, and she says that at least once a week someone gives her a look like “You can read? What are you doing here then?”
Its an interesting list as far as it goes. I could take issue with some of the points raised and maybe suggest good reasons for some of the other ones but in broader sense I suspect most of what you say is right.
The main criticism of the list is that it comes across as a list of whinges without offering any deeper analysis or doing anything positive with the data you have assembled. What might be interesting would be to attempt to analyse which items on the list are changing within society and which are remaining static. This ought to create discussion and deepen understanding. I would expect to find a certain commonality between those aspects of patriarchy which are in remission and a similar undercurrent in those which are remaining entrecnhed. Deeper understanding is the first step to offering a solution and without offering a solution you really are just whinging.
Oliver — that is your homework to do, not mine. If you’re not willing to do the work, well then you’re just whinging, eh?
>>The main criticism of the list is that it comes across as a list of whinges without offering any deeper analysis or doing anything positive with the data you have assembled. What might be interesting would be to attempt to analyse which items on the list are changing within society and which are remaining static. This ought to create discussion and deepen understanding. I would expect to find a certain commonality between those aspects of patriarchy which are in remission and a similar undercurrent in those which are remaining entrecnhed. Deeper understanding is the first step to offering a solution and without offering a solution you really are just whinging. >>
Oh, fucking whatever. There certainly is value in the simple act of identifying disparities, particularly to people who aren’t in a position to notice them. Not just that, but of course there have been studies on changing levels of disparity–attitudes towards sexual expression in women, for example; beliefs about reproductive choice; female representation in different career fields; wage disparities; marital ages; healthcare. Feminist thinkers and sociologists have been toiling in those trenches for decades, and your total ignorance of their work is yet another example of unacknowledged, unreconstructed sexism.
We’ve got solutions, too–they’d already have been implemented, but they share one big problem: they require men to work at changing their own attitudes and actions, and to examine their own lives and the lives of men around them.
And speaking of work that you can do, what are your solutions? How would you end sexism in our time? You seem to understand that it’s a problem. Have you thought about solving it?
Erin:
They’ve only given her looks? I’ve had at least two people straight out ask me that. While the circumstances were slightly different (I was admitting I majored in physics, not just demonstrating that I could read), I was highly insulted both times. But of course, both people (one of them a manager) thought they were being complimentary.
I would also like to add that I’ve also had someone ask me if I “read, you know, besides blogs?” This was at a local political gathering, and the person doing the asking was one of the ringleaders of the group, which in part explains why much of my political activity is restricted to the internet.
boy lots of replies where to begin, nowhere, I think the list only emphasises the mentality of society over the generations which are very slowly changing, traditional jobs of past usually went to men, but once woman started to get into it, then the presitige left and men sought other careers.
example, teachers in the bygone years were men, woman took over later, now it is not considered a very glamorous job, tho I have had male teachers in junior high and high school and I liked them as much as the woman teachers.
secretaries used to be men, now it is predominatly woman, because of it’s association with woman’s work it loses it’s glamorous positon, the traditional role gave woman only one choice motherhood and housework, field work to help the husband if a farm, or helping out in the shop if he had one as a business.
a man had more options married or not, he could be a blacksmith, banker, (more tellers around here are woman )horse trainer, cattleman, farmer, carpenter, but woman’s options were practically nil. her choices were to marry this man or not, and to have children and keeping the house clean and laundry and cooking all the meals and taking care of children regardless of how tired she was.
the man’s options were to work at his career support his family financially adn that was about it. he could help out with the children or not, he wasn’t penalized either way, he could get involved in community affairs affecting judgements on how things should proceed in their neck of the woods. and sometimes he did repairs around the house.
but it must be remembered with privileges comes heavy responsibilty, the more privlege you have the more responsibility you have to shoulder. the hardships of that can negate any privlege depending on the circumstances.
sometimes those in power are really powerless to change things if they want some changes done because of peer pressure and fear of losing prestige or their positions. sometimes one guy out of ten wants to change an injustice but the others like the status quo. so he either gets with the program or is booted out and his reputation is booted as well.
husband and wife should work as a team, if one is not happy that should be addressed, and things changed if possible. if one is not happy the other won’t be. trouble comes when one wants to abandon the relationship and leave the other hanging with whatever they left whether mortgage, children, medical concerns not to mention the heart ache of losing your partner and lover.
and it is true, society (tho indirectly and subtly) does expect a man to be a man! not to wimper and to be proud, (well we know pride can lead to one’s downfall) and to seek his own paths and not let a wimpering woman and childre desuade him from fulfilling himself (to abandon his kids if they interfere with his goals) and that no one will condemn him for that.
a woman would be condemed for that, and it is true a man who sleeps around when married is having affairs, (trying to tone down the seriousness of it by calling it an affair rather than what it truly is treachery and adultery, ) and sometimes woman now a days do that too, have affairs. men who sleep around are called studs, where a woman is a slut,
which is contradictory considering if the man sleeps around to become a stud a woman has to become a slut for him to do so? this is a perfect example of a double standard with a catch 22. sometimes men are pressured by other men to sleep around even if he really doesn’t want to, friends, (friends yea right) call him a wuss, a chicken a girlie man or whatever to make him feel he has to prove himself.
such a guy should vacate those type friends and associate with people who will encourage the kind of behavior the guy himself wants to do. these impressions about woman and men roles are fashioned from childhood by what one sees and hears and tv is the perfect example, woman are treated as weaker sex with treacherous hearts looking to suduce a man, or she is protrayed as get in the way person or one who causes a mission or troubleshooting a problem to get messed up because she tried to help and the man has to try and undo the damage she created.
or as a woman who is independant in words but gets into trouble and the man has to come to her rescue. Such as “I can take care of myself” when a few seconds later she gets right into trouble and the man rescues her and gets sexual favors as a result.
or the woman in the show is so stupid and can’t do anything against a situation and is helpless or whatever, or is always falling down when running I mean the list is endless.
it really is disgusting how they portray woman on tv and guys too sometimes they get the short end of the stick to, society pressures bear more influence then we would like to admit sometimes. in many cases if not most men do have the upper hand simply because of prejudices and automatic character strengths simply because of his gender.
he is a man therefor he has all these wonderful qualities (even tho he may be a total jerk or totally incompentent). so here is the typical scenario you see on tv all the time, maybe this really is in real life, white, male, with money, middle age gets into power way before anyone else does. the majoritiy of the congress and legislators etc fit this description.
there are some females and some blacks, are there any hispanics? I don’t remember seeing them on there. the vast majority are white male and middle age or higher in age.
so naturally they will vote in laws and such that favor white men with money, how can they not? poor people don’t give contributions or have influences in other areas like wealthy people do. they can’t relate to poor whites, hispanics or woman, they mostly never had to live on fixed incomes or live from paycheck to paycheck, maybe a few but not the most.
they don’t know what it is like to work for someone else and have to skimp and budget and not have medical coverage being wealthy those in power do not have to worry about that they just vote themselves a raise or otehr perks and take it out of the poor person’ s pockets who by the way have no way to fight back.
so much of that list is probably true, in the eyes of socieity as a hole, this is something that was passed from generation to generation. all without words but through actions.
RR
Like Spiderman?
Bravo. Very true and wonderfully written. Thank you!
what do you mean by spiderman?
cause he is so much trying to help others that he has no life of his own? please explain. thanks.
RR
The most famous quote from the first Spiderman comic book, written by Stan Lee, is “With great power comes great responsibility.” The phrase has been repeated often in subsequent Spiderman stories, including in both of the recent movies.
For Spiderman, it pretty much means what you said – that because he’s been given great power, he’s obligated to use it to help people, even if it means he has very little life available for himself.
Your clothes will nearly always have adequate pockets and will be sized in inches or centimetres rather than code numbers, your shoes will likely be comfortable to walk in and you will not be expected to wear socks that are expected to tear on a regular basis.
Has anyone ever compiled such a list exploring the privileges of race?
It’s noted in the original piece up top. There’s a link.