So today Terri Schiavo is scheduled to have her feeding tube removed. Will it actually happen? I have no idea. (Update: Zuzu in the comments reports that Terri’s feeding tube has now been removed.) But even if her feeding tube is removed today, her body won’t die for a week or two, so this issue isn’t over.
Today, two Houses of Representatives – Florida’s and the country’s – passed laws intending to save Schiavo. Neither Senate went along, however. The newest delaying tactic is to subpoena Terri to testify before Congress (and forbidding anyone from removing her feeding tube in the meanwhile). Currently it appears that her feeding tube will be removed regardless. The subpoena seems to me almost a mockery – Terri can no more answer congress’ questions than she can fly counterclockwise around the Earth to turn time backwards. Several bloggers, who feel the same way I do, are pissed off by this latest development, and by the perceived cynicism – see Schussman.com, Stone Court, and Rude Pundit (who, I should warn you, lives up to her/his name).
But I realize that folks on the other side don’t look at it the same way. Some activists are going on a hunger strike to protest; I’m appalled, but I nonetheless admire their idealism and dedication. I hope they don’t harm themselves.
* * *
I hesitate to publish these next images. I’ve decided I’m going to, because the physical condition of Terri Schiavo’s brain is essential to any serious discussion of Terri Schiavo’s condition. By including these images, I don’t intend any disrespect to Terri Schaivo whatsoever.
On the left is a CT scan of Terri Schiavo’s brain (source). On the right, for comparison’s sake, is a CT scan of a healthy human brain. (You may also find it useful to look at these medical illustrations of the human brain, here and here.)
As I understand it – and goodness knows, I’m no doctor – the sparsely detailed dark areas in Terri’s CT scan (both the large dark area in the center and the smaller dark areas around the edges) are where Terri’s brain has been replaced with brain fluid. To quote myself: The conclusion the court came to is that, based on medical testimony and Terri’s CAT scan, her cerebral cortex has basically turned to liquid. The cerebral cortex is the seat of all our higher brain functions. Without a cerebral cortex, it is impossible for a human being to experience thought, emotions, consciousness, pain, pleasure, or anything at all; nor, barring a miracle, is it possible for a patient lacking a cerebral cortex to recover.
* * *
I’m not convinced that there is any legitimate doubt on this point. A National Review article (hat tip: Bob Hayes) quotes a few doctors arguing that CT scans are “useful only in pretty severe cases”; but what has happened to Terri Schiavo’s brain is, in fact, very severe.
When people argue that a CT scan could not possibly tell us anything about Terri Schiavo’s condition, logically they must believe one of the following two things:
1) CT scans cannot reliably detect when someone’s cortex has mostly turned to liquid.
Or:
2) That someone’s cortex has turned mostly to liquid does not tell us anything important about their condition.
I don’t think either of those propositions are defensible; therefore, I don’t think the proposition “a CT scan can’t tell us anything about Terri Schiavo’s condition” is defensible.
Finally, the National Review article implies that there’s some sort of death-cult conspiracy between the judge and the doctors to hide Terri’s true condition. I think that sort of conspiratorial thinking is ridiculous. But in any case, for it to be correct, it’s not only Michael Schiavo, the judge, and the two doctors hired by Michael who would have to be in on it; two court-appointed doctors and at least three more judges (pdf link) must be in on the conspiracy too. Not to mention all the other medical experts who have commented on the case and disagreed with the National Review’s conclusions (see the neurologists quoted in this article, for example). How far does the conspiracy go?
* * *
I thought this Abstract Appeal post – explaining why the question of “would Terri Schiavo have wanted to be kept alive?” wouldn’t normally come up during the malpractice lawsuit – was particularly well done. In general (and I know I’ve said this before), Abstract Appeal is the absolute-must-read blog for Terri Schiavo related news.
* * *
UPDATE: I’ve edited the post to remove an argument that I didn’t think I could stand behind; I’ve put the argument in the comments for posterity’s sake. I’ve also “promoted” an argument I made in the comments to the main post.
Eating disorders are incredibly complicated things, with many causes, ranging from common familial pathologies to sexual abuse and rape. I urge anyone with questions to the National Eating Disorders Association.
Sure, the whole thing is very complex, and very sad, and I sympathize with all the human beings involved at the personal rather than the political level (and isn’t the chief executive’s repeated view on the proper outcome of a current judicial process an astonishing contempt of court, apart from anything else?). But there does seem some basic pathology driving the whole tragedy, and involving a cruel subordination of human life (and death) to the abstract procrustean demands of celibate male theology.
I can’t help but imagine some relation between the supposed ‘hidden’ (from her husband) double meals of Terri with her catholic parents on Saturday evenings ““ the symbolic nutrition of Mass followed by food from her terrestrial mother – and the occult or hidden bulimia that probably precipitated the seizure one Sunday morning. And I can’t help think of Christ’s question to the Pharisees: Was the Sabbath (religion) made for Man, or Man for the Sabbath? I don’t think it’s just Terri who’s been harmed by a tragically constrictive image of herself and her body. More importantly, I think this repressive pathology masquerading as religion should be the key issue for everyone except the immediate family. The marriage of superstitious repression and politics, celebrated by the ‘mullahs’ in Washington and the Middle East is the central issue for our time, a contest between a liberating vision that celebrates Life even in inevitable Death, and a repressive cult that makes human existence a kind of living death.
Certainly, Martin, the confounding of those demands for religious actions put there right up against those for restoring feeding and obtaining guardianship perked my attention up. I think you are right that many United States citizens don’t realize how easily sincere and genuine religious feelings can be manipulated by operatives like Randall Terry. In fact, his closeness to the Schindlers makes me really wonder about them. (Randall Terry is from my home town, so we have a long history of him.) The news media want to sell copy and they’ll play along with a good propaganda story, with all those soundbites about how a poor girl is being denied the company of her mom by some demonic judge.
That said, however, and admitting that there are an awful lot of clerics who seem to be taking advantage of this situation as much as some politicians, I do not think this can be placed on the Church or Catholic teachings. That’s like placing the blame for terrorists upon all of Islam, which I do not do either. Catholicism is a huge, varied religion, with variations in practices and beliefs much larger than the Vatican admits, and has been far more liberal at times in history — and still “proper” — than many care to remember. There is, too, here a rabid form of evangelical Christianity which is quite Protestant, preoccupied with eschatology, it’s deeply involved in this and the anti-abortion fight, and is part of the core support that some Republicans are manipulating.
I grant you, from what I know of traditional Catholic families, this secrecy stuff, accusing Michael Schiavo of murder, trying to drag somebody back to the Holy Communion, and all that makes me very suspicious about what’s going on. But I’m not a judge, and as many opinions I might form about it, it bears little on the particulars of the case.
Sorry to speak twice in a row, but something just occured to me. Y’know, it might not be a bad idea to create some kind of accepted legal document, in addition to a living will, which formally declares a person’s religious faith, or lack of any, shortly after reaching adulthood. There is a precedent for an “ethical will” but this thing, which isn’t really that, would govern during the lifetime of the adult. I expect this not to be popular with established religions and popular with secularists, but it just offends me that parents might declare what the choice of religion of their child is, whether the parents are Catholic, Jewish, Muslim, or whatever.
If that’s hard to understand, then flip it. Suppose, in the far more common circumstance, children can dictate what the religious beliefs of a parent are over the objections of the parent’s spouse or, say, lover. A law like the Act which Congress passed which gives parents automatic standing in courts to contest rights of spouses could be readily extended to other family members.
I don’t understand why a person’s religion should even be relevent. I routinely, consciously defy the tenets of my religion. I don’t really want some religious authority to assert that I must want something because my religion dictates it. I doubt most religious people do, frankly.
Children already do trump the wishes of a parent’s lover, I believe. Lovers have absolutely no standing at all, which is one of the arguments for gay marriage. Part of what disturbs me about this case is that we seem to be totally comfortable with ideas of guardianship that completely privilege the marriage bond over all other relationships. I’m not sure how I feel about that.
Speaking of the law: Slavery was legal once under they law, did that make it right? Terri S. is starving to death. We can’t even treat animals this way under the law. Roe v Wade may be the law, regardless, defenseless human beings are dying in the womb (do a search on Louis Pasteur’s biogenesis, if you don’t believe that they are human beings). Godspeed Terri, pray for us.
starving an animal to death = ANIMAL ABUSE
starving a human to death = not even considered animal abuse?
human beings are now worth less than animals?
So, incidentally…
The dark part in the middle is not her cerebral cortex. Its her cerebellum. The cerebellum controls fine motor control, balance and equilibrium, and muscle tone. While the cerebral cortex does look damaged, it is still there, and certainly has not been turned to liquid.
M, I suppose you might support a Constitutional amendment to change the Preamble of the Constitution to read:
There are people who, in all possible affection for Terri Schiavo, believe continuation of feeding is ghoulish and horrific. Your opinion about “starvation” depends upon an assumption of her disposition. I respect your opinion, but there’s plenty written and cited by links above to read and think about. I bet you’ll find it’s a far more complicated situation than that painted in slogans by Randall Terry and his henchmen.
Peace.
With some research expeience of MRI, fMRI and CT scans as well as EEG, brain functioning and psychological processes (I have a PhD in psychology) the CT scan as shown on this and numerous other blogs shows a massive dilation of the lateral vetricles at level at which the scan is taken. It probably is not at the same level of the normal brain used as a comparison but this is irrelevant as the extent of dilation indicates a massive level of damage to the neocortex.
Further to that if we examine the edges of the neocortex that is present we see a large amount of atrophy. There are large gaps between the neural tissue at margins of the neocortex which reinforces the degree of damage that Terri has sustained. Her cerebellum is not present in the CT scan shown on this blog.
With regard to the change is size of ventricles shown after the insertion of a shunt it is worth noting the difference in the margins of the neocortex shown i that scan versus Terri’s. As stated above, Terri’s exhibits a large degree of atrophyof neural tissue.
At a functional level this degree of damage would result in a significant cognitive impairmentt in a number of key processes. These processes are intimately involved in consciousness (as we currently understand it) but more importantly they are involved in what we see as essentially for determining what and who were are as individuals. I would suggestthat Terri has lost most of the functions that determine who she is as a person.
Does this warrant removal of a feeding tube? I don’t really know. At an emotive level I would say no. However at another level I wuld say let her go, but lether go quickly. Let her family remember the vibrant alive person rather than the damaged body that now exists.
heh, indeed..
But then, if freedom of religion includes being able to not believe, how can any constitution which claims to hold that freedom in the highest regard ever claim to recognise a deity, or any such figures, in such a way?
Or am I assuming too much of freedom of religion?
The ideas on starvation seem out of context somehow. Depriving humans of food (or any primary needs) is considered against human rights as well, but that’s assuming people are alive, and given the circumstances have the wish to continue living.
But that’s really what the whole issue is about, isn’t it? If she’s not actually alive in there, or doesn’t wish to be, the deprivation of food would not be considered a violation of human rights.
for what it’s worth..
Both me and my sister have in our possession official documents made up and signed by our father which have details concerning just these cases. In his case, he does NOT want any treatment, and if there is any doubt, he leaves the decision to my sister, and then me (she’s a lot older than me). The papers are only legal for a certain number of years though, so they’ll have to be renewed to make sure my dad didn’t change his mind about it in the meantime.
Of course, these aren’t NICE documents to have, nor nice ideas to think about, but these cases do show how much easier life (or perhaps death) can become when you have everything written down.
The more I see this thing drag on (I remember hearing of it several years ago, so I was unpleasantly surprised to hear the currrent things on the news again – I had hoped it’d have been over), the more I’m thinking about getting these papers set up for myself. I’m not exactly old, but accidents do happen, and they’re a nice security in showing what you want.
(I guess I should note that I’m not a US citizen, so I don’t know how/if that’s possible there)
Eileen, not sure where you received your radiologic training, but that is most certainly NOT her cerebellum. The two symmetric dark structures are her grossly enlarged ventricles; I’d stake my license on it. I would agree that the cerbral cortex has not been “turned into” liquid; rather, the vast majority (if not all) of the grey matter making up the cerebral cortex has died and has been auto-digested by the body’s own immune system, and has been replaced by fluid. But then, the disctinction between those two descriptions seems to come down to just semantics.
In my opinion (which is admittedly a blend of professional and personal conviction) the person of Terri Schiavo died 15 years ago and the fight to let her body die or keep it from dying has been for the benefit of her living relatives and now politicians.
As a third point, the fact that this legal battle has gone on for 10 years is a testament to the hardheadedness of both Ms. Schaivo’s husband and parents. Decisions to withdraw care are made every day in hospitals throughout the country without any controversy or media attention at all; this case is by far not typical.
Thank you for posting these scans — but I think you should know that Terri’s scan and the “Healthy Brain” scan show pictures of the brain at two different levels (Terri’s is at a higher level of the skull, the comparison is taken at a lower level in the skull). This is kind of like comparing a cross-section of the knee of one person with the cross-section of the thigh of another.
I’m not saying this changes the read of Terri’s scan, which looks terrible. Her brain is completely atrophied. But the comparison scan doesn’t help at all and can be quite misleading if you don’t know you’re comparing two different levels.
To clarify (sorry):
People who are familiar with brain scans won’t have trouble seeing the near-total destruction of cortical brain tissue in Terri’s CT.
People who are not familiar with brain scans should probably ignore the “Healthy Brain” picture. You won’t know what can be compared, and what can’t.
Take, for example, those two large, dark, parallel banana-like shapes in the middle of Terri’s scan. This is what stands out as the obvious eye-catching difference in the two scans. As has been said earlier, these are her lateral ventricles — part of the plumbing system of the brain that stores cerebrospinal fluid and lets it circulate throughout the brain.
If the healthy brain were imaged at the same level as Terri’s, the banana-spaced empty spaces would be present there too. But they’d be much, much smaller — very skinny bananas — because they’d be surrounded by normal brain tissue.
The healthy brain picture shown here also includes a chunk of knotty, lumpy brain tissue in the midline of the brain — the thalamus and subcortical structures — that do not appear in the slice shown of Terri’s CT. But that’s not because she doesn’t have them (she has thalamic implants). They would show up if you looked at lower slices of the CT. So, once again, you’d have to ignore this apparent difference between the two pictures.
We have a government based on a balance of power. The courts are supposed to balance the legislative branch. No one branch is supposed to have total power over the others. So who balances the courts? .
Marilyn –
Both the legislature and the executive get to check and balance the courts, but they have to do it in certain ways. Just as judges aren’t free to walk into Congress and rewrite laws that haven’t even been passed yet (let alone led to lawsuits yet), Congress has no right to try to use legislation to decide the outcome of particular court cases.
What Congress CAN legitimately do is rewrite the law so that future cases will be decided according to new rules that Congress thinks will work better. So, for instance, the Florida legislature could write a law saying that unless a patient left a living will, it should always be presumed that it’s in the patient’s best interests to be kept alive. If the legislature feels the courts have done wrong in Terri’s case, passing such a law would prevent similar wrongs from happening in future cases.
To revisit the CT scan vs. MRI issue one more time…perhaps my layman’s knowledge can help clarify.
If we are arguing whether a CT can provide an image which distinguishes liquid from solid, the answer is yes. In my experience with my daughter, who has a brain tumor & hydrocephalus, an MRI has not always been necessary to diagnose problems. MRI’s are necessary to get a clear picture of the tumor, but if she goes in with a suspected shunt malfunction a CT scan is sufficient. Enlarged ventricles are easily diagnosed, because (as seen in the image above) the distinction between liquid and solid is quite clear. It can look like there’s “less brain” if the ventricles are enlarged, because the brain gets “squished” (I mentioned layman’s terms, right?). I can’t make the call on whether Ms. Schiavo’s brain matter is gone or just squished. I do, however, believe expert radiologists and neurologists–who have seen ALL of the slices from the CT scan–would be able to accurately make that judgement. An MRI would show the same areas of fluid & tissue, just with more definition & detail–and a few areas deep in the brain that a CT scan can’t reach. To my understanding, neither test would show if there was any “activity” in those areas.
As far as starvation goes, it does sound inhumane. I have a few points to make on this:
1-People who die of numerous natural causes–cancer coming first to my mind–have anorexia listed among the causes of death. It is not unusual for a dying person not to be given nourishment by artificial means. In those cases we don’t say “they were starved to death by murderers!” we say that they died from cancer. Their lives could have been extended with feeding tubes & IVs. Likewise, Ms. Schiavo began to die after cardiac arrest 15 years ago & has been kept alive since then by a feeding tube.
2-Euthanasia, unfortunately, is not an option in this country.
3-Many people, in reference to this particular case, have clearly stated that they would choose the period of starvation over a lifetime trapped in that body.
It is not fair to say “That poor woman, they’re going to starve her to death and she’s helpless” anymore than it’s fair to say “That poor woman, they’re going to keep her trapped in that body and she just wants to die.” None of us are qualified to make either statement. Neither are congressmen. What I know is this: If I were in that position, the person that I would want making the call, after medical experts weighed in, is my husband. Not Tom DeLay, not misguided Pro-Life advocates.
Just pretend that the thalamic implants aren’t there, and an MRI is ordered. It would take a whole lot of sedation to keep her in the MRI tube–the faintest motion makes garbage of the data collected. And for a functional MRI (fMRI), the patient has to be able to respond to commands, so I don’t think an insurance company is going to shell out approximately $2000.00 to prove that she can’t follow commands.
And surgery is risky business. I’m not sure I’d want to go through surgery to remove the implants just for an MRI, which in this case isn’t going to tell much, then have more surgery to replace them.
French soustain :
http://lesalonbeige.blogs.com/my_weblog/2005/03/lagonie_cruelle.html
It is amazing that the sworn testimony of the many who have experienced Terri Schiavo’s interaction with others and her environment has not even been mentioned here, or is it because you all are unaware of its existance?
Just one example is the tstimony of Carla Ayer, who was interviewed on Fox news last night. What follows is from her sworn testimony in the case record. carla, an R.N. cared for terri Schiavo for over a year while she was at Largo Convelescent Center from April 1995 – July 1996:
[Very long quoted article snipped by Ampersand. Greg, please don’t do that on my blog – choose some representative quotes and provide a link for those who are interested to follow to read the whole thing. –Amp]
There are more than Carla, CNA’s, – back when she got speech therapy after the collapse, she was saying words, etc. That was before the settlement after which Michael Schiavo terminated all therapy, even though he had testified in court to get the millions in settlement money that he was going to care for her and provide her thearpy for the rest of his and her life.
Don’t let personal views on death and suffering cloud your ability to search out the facts in this case. Much is not being commonly reported. Even the CAT scan comparison above in this listing is misleading, not being taken at similar resolution. Nor does it show a “liquified brain” bu rather a lower desity of remaining matter. Further, anyone that has had significant brain injury will end up with fluid areas – the body’s way of consolidating the rest for function. The existance of such does not in any way prove a total lack of functionality.
This case is filled with inconsistancies that makes the court’s rulings and actions extremely questionable. They all should be reconsidered and a bright light shined on all the evidence including Mrs. Schiavo’s mental capabilities or lack therof before the final (and potentially fatal) judgement is rendered.
Thank you you all very much for this very interesting and rational discussion. I second the recommendation of http://abstractappeal.com/schiavo/WolfsonReport.pdf as a good place for people to get facts as synthesized by someone who clearly had access to them.
Greg,
The CNA’s testimony has been discredited. The Schindlers did not ask for this testimony. The Schindlers’ testimony contradicted that of these nurses. And the judge found the amount of conspiracy required to be beyond credibility.
As to court rulings, how many courts do we need here? It’s been argued before multiple courts, including those in the past couple of days.
As to the money, only $300,000 was accessible to Mr. Schiavo, for his personal losses. The rest was put in trust for Terri’s treatment; all of this money is surely long since gone in legal and medical fees. You’ve apparently skipped through reading most of the responses above, since you’re rehashing arguments that have been proven false through the court records quoted above and in links provided. Let the appeals end; today’s 11th Circuit en banc ruling of 10-2 against should end this discussion; the US Supreme Court has already turned down the case. Time for acceptance to begin.
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A note from a radiologist:
As a radiologist, I can tell you that I look at catscans all the time. The catscan which you are showing on your site (which has Terri’s brain) is very primitive and not very exact.
By looking at this picture, I can see that Terri’s s scan was taken by a first or second generation catscan machine. These machines are very primitive, and many advances have been done since their time. The catscan technology has evolved into 5 different generations, and the difference between the new stuff and the old stuff is as different between the laptops of today and the laptops of the late 80’s. In other words, it’s huge! If Terri’s brain had fluid, the fluid could obscure the older catscan machine from getting a true picture of her brain activity. The chances for this are pretty good!
Therefore, I personally cannot accept that scan as proof that Terri is braindead!
Dr. Joseph Arko, MD
Dr Arko: Since when did CT scans provide information on “brain activity”? They provide anatomical data, not functional data.
BONE SCANS
Hello,
It’s Doc Joe again, and in this blog I would like to talk about bone scans!
On the Internet floating around in cyberspace is a report of Terri’s bone scan which was taken when she was brought to the hospital 15 years ago.
Now, as a cancer physician (radiology), I know bone scans because I have worked with a lot of patients who suffer from bone cancer. I’m not going to retype the report. You can probably find the pdf file in google, but let me describe to you in layman’s term what it means.
When Terri was brought to the hospital, a bone scan was done by Doctor Campbell Walker. In his medical report, he states that her spine, her femur, her ribs, and her knees and ankles had all been broken in the recent past. Further, he said that these bones had been broken over and over again. The rate of the bones healing themselves showed this.
According to his report, he concluded that this woman had undergone severe trauma. Or, in layman’s terms, Terri was MAULED! There are rumors on the Net flying around that Terri suffered from bulimia, and because of her eating disorder, she fell a lot.
If this situation was not so tragic, I would laugh in Michael Shiavo’s face!!!! Do you have ANY idea how hard it is to break a femur??????? Or the Li vertebral in your spine??????? Let me sum it up for you….IT AIN’T EASY!!!!!!
There are several ways in which all of these bones could be broken over and over again. 1) Terri was into extreme sports. She skydived, mountain climbed, bungee jumped and broke her bones over and over again. 2) She has bone cancer 3) She suffers from neoplastic bone disease……..or 4) Somebody repeatedly beat her over and over with a blunt object like a baseball bat. Which do you think it is?
The moment the hospital saw these results, they should have called the police. A criminal investigation needs to be done on Michael Shiavo.
Dr Arko: Since when did CT scans provide information on “brain activity”?? They provide anatomical data, not functional data.
Sorry, poor choice of words. I had PET Scan on the brain. The wife called me down and I had to finish my post quickly! Sorry!
Phoenix,
There is nothing in what you linked that discredits Carla Ayers testimony. It only states that Greer did not accept her testimony and found it “incredible”, perhaps in light of what he had already concluded. Also, as a correction. Carla Ayers is not a CNA, but an R.N. There are also the testimony of two other CNA’s from the facility same time frame that corroborate both how Michael Schiavo affected the work enviornment with his manner and orders as well as Terri’s responsiveness. That makes three people from the facility.
Nothing has ever been said by her to indicate her charges are new, they were part of the original court material, but material that was disregarded with no proven reason to do so by Greer.
Just because the death dispensing judge in this case said her charges sounded incredible does not make them false. Should he not have instead ordered an investigation into her allegations through the Florida DHF or the health care facility regulating body? If her allegations had proven false, she would have been in a world of hert legally, but for some reason Greer did nothing ot investigate the veracity of her statements.
To perjure onesself under oath regarding the care and activity of a patient under her care would not only place Carla Ayer’s career at risk, but would place her at risk of felony perjury charges. Exacltly why do you surmise she would lie about this? And the same could be asked about the two other CNA’s.
The personality tebdancies described in her testimony seems to mirror that contained in the testimony of Cynthia Shook, Michael’s former girlfriend/mistress from the 1-1/2 year after Terri’s collapse time frame. (The time during which he was quoting his marriage oaths in front of a jury and telling them he was going to personally care for Terri for the rest of their lives.)
BTW, sorry Amp for the previous long insertion and for finding a good online link as a substitute.
HEART ATTACKS, POTASSIUM IMBALANCES & OTHER MYSTERIES:
Hello!
Doc Joe again! Now that we have talked about scans, let’s talk about what actually made Terri collapse!
Now, let me first make an admission here. Eating disorders are not my speciality, but I do believe that I know enough general medicine to make the following claims. If you ever find me wrong, please post that info here! I would be glad to see if I erred.
Terri Schiavo did not have a heart attack. When a person has a heart attack, the heart releases enzymes that can be seen by doctors. These enzymes were not present in Terri’s body. What she most probably suffered from was a suddden irregular heart beat. What caused this irregular heart beat? She did not have any history of heart disease. Was it trauma? possibly. Bulimia….I doubt it.
Let me post my reasons why in my next blog!
With all due respect, as a specialist in Eating Disorders, I am waiting for your reasons that Bulimia COULDNT have caused her heart attack . The severity of physical damage caused by chronic eating disordered behaviors is well documented. I dont know the extent of Terri S’s ED behaviors, so I cannot be more specific on the cause of her trauma, but I am happy to supply any number of sources detailing the physical devastation of chronic eating disordered behaviors.
If indeed such updated CAT scan images are available, they are not publicly available. The original source of these removed them and they ended up on this Alas blog which brought many to the site.
The matter should not be a public one, and it should, rather, be a question for the family, the courts, and the experts.
I am very skeptical of 11th hour determinations and reversals giving “sudden new medical evidence”. This has been going on for 15 years. If they were so interested before, if Governor Bush had access to these before, why not bring them out then? No, these people are desperate and are resorting to desperate means.
Sorry, Now that I’m back, let me continue…
In my last blog, I stated that Terri did not have a heart attack. She had a sudden irregular heart beat. The news is saying that this condition led to her collapse, prevented her brain from getting oxygen, and led to the state that she is in now.
The news is also stating that the heart lost its regular beat because of a potassium imbalance caused by bulimia. I cannot believe that this is true!
Terri was 26 when she passed out. According to her family, she was in perfect health. It is VERY difficult for a young, 20 year old woman to go into a vegetable state due to an eating disorder! Many years ago, (and forgive my stupidity on pop culture) there was a brother and sister singing group called the Carpenters.
Now, I don’t know how to post pictures here, so if you go to the Net and type in Karen Carpenter/ bulimia, you will see a picture of someone with an eating disorder. Compare that picture to the picture of Terri which you see on the news. Terri does NOT look like Karen Carpenter. She has too much body fat and muscle tone!
Now, I don’t know if Terri was starting an eating disorder or not, but most people who go into a potassium induced coma look like Karen Carpenter….not Terri Schiavo!!! Back this medical observation with the mysterious bone scans, and I can’t believe that her black out was self induced!!!!
What else, then, could make the potassium level in the body go crazy? What else could make the heart flutter. Answer: a sudden drop in blood sugar…..or a shot of insulin.
Now, I’m not saying that Terri went into her unconscious state because she had a shot of insulin. But what I am saying is that the circumstances are very suspicious!!!! Isn’t it interesting that nurse Iyers claims that when Michael visited Terri, after he left, Terri suffered from abnormally low blood sugar and she found a vile of insulin in the waste basket!!! Isn’t it interesting that another nurse who was interviewed on Hannity and Combs (Heidi and I forgot the last name) also claimed that when Michael left, Terri exhibited signs of very low blood sugar.
And did you know that WHEN you suffer from blood sugar that low, little by little, your brain cells die??????
This is just a conjecture….a theory. But, somehow I think my theory is a little more exact than the bull I am reading in the news!!!!
Somebody PLEASE investigate Michael Schiavo!!!!!!
Karen Carpenter actually didn’t die of starvation. She died of ipecac abuse, which is, I believe, the most common cause of death for bulimics other than suicide.
Some cites:
Pope HG, Hudson JI, Nixon R, Herridge PL. The epidemiology of ipecac abuse. N Engl J Med. 1986; 314: 245″“246
Schiff RJ, Wurzel CL, Brunson SC, Kasloff I, Nussbaum MP, Frank SD. Death due to chronic syrup of ipecac use in a patient with bulimia. Pediatrics. 1986; 78: 412″“416
And here’s a site aimed at a popular audience.
It sounds to me like you don’t know the first thing about eating disorders. Please don’t pontificate on things about which you’re really ignorant.
Thanks!
My quick 2 cents on Terri Schiavo, and that’s it.
What if poor Mrs. Schiavo’s face, the face we see in a small selection of repetitive undated video clips, was contorted into an hideous scowl or panged with horror and fright instead of her current uncontrolled hapless angelic idiot grin? You think there would be the same outpouring of sympathy and interest from the general public in keeping this woman alive?
Marge, yes, I agree with Sally, eating disorders are very complicated things, very dependent upon individual history, and very much diseases. See the National Eating Disorders Association for details. People with them have backgrounds ranging from common family pathologies to rape and sexual abuse.
The problem with Marge’s argument is that it seems to suggest that eating disorders aren’t really dangerous unless you’re emaciated. And that’s not true. Most bulimics don’t look like Karen Carpenter: many aren’t thin at all. And they’re still doing tons of damage to their bodies. They could still die. It’s a big, dangerous myth that you have to be really skinny to have a serious medical problem.
/PSA. Sorry.
There is also an an excellent British site on these disorders, including a nice technical discussion of anorexia’s causes.
And this section of the same site addresses how eating disorders can be misdiagnosed by medical professionals.
Marge, the Schindlers hypothesized Michael Schiavo murdered Terri someplace along the litigation trail. That was dismissed, and they later dropped their hypothesis.
Marge, you really need to listen to someone who spent some time with Schiavo’s residuum, recently, both trained and doing it as a job for Governor Jeb Bush, like Dr Jay Wolfson.
I am suspicious of those, as her dress and makeup and posing all are clearly intended to make her look alive and vibrant. But they are effective in convincing some “there’s a real person in there”.
The Times has a story on the guy Jeb Bush has pulled out of his hat to provide 11th hour “expert testimony” on Terri Schiavo, Incapacitated .
I thought I would show this CT-scan from a perfectly healthy individual after undergoing an hemispherectomy.
What would happen if this type of procedure were done to someone around 25 years old? They may end up like Terri Schiavo.
Granted, we’re talking about one side of the brain being removed, in this case, versus damage to both sides. Nevertheless, Michael Schiavo’s statement, “You can’t regrow a brain, Larry” is largely irrelevant. Many intelligent people have severe brain damage, as strange as that may sound.
This is who the latest doctor who has completely different opinion than doctors who have actually examined Terri Schiavo. Jeb Bush produced Dr. William Polk Cheshire . His biography is at the bottom of this page : http://www.restorationfoundation.org/volume_2/2122.htm
Interesting.
Having one hemisphere removed is still consistent with consciousness, thought, awareness, etc. It’s not a desirable state — there will usually be major deficits, different ones depending on which hemisphere is removed — but it is in no way comparable to having profound, global damage to both hemispheres.
Age makes a difference only in the sense that a younger patient has a more plastic brain — the remaining hemisphere may be better able to pick up the tasks of the missing hemisphere. But in both a child or a 25 year-old, the key is: is there intact cortex, particularly in the frontal lobes? And is there an intact connection between the cortex and the centers regulating global consciousness, emotion, etc. — broadly speaking, the subcortical structures of the brain, including the brainstem. These centers don’t do the actual “thinking” themselves, but act as on/off switches, or control panels, regulating and coordinating states of awareness and emotional response in the cortex.
If these anatomic structures are intact and connected, the patient will still be capable of thought, awareness, and most of what we think of as the functions of the “self.”
Often, patients who wake up after long comas had some sort of transient damage to these lower subcortical structures that regulate awareness — the “on/off” switch was just dormant for a while, but the cortex was intact and just waiting to come back on line. That’s a totally different situation from having no cortex, but having your subcortical structures still intact, and keeping you in a bizarre, awake-appearing state, generating reflex, brainstem-driven facial expressions and responses. Which is more like Terry Schiavo.
I have worked in medical for 30+ years in the area of radiology, CT, and I am the operator of MRI…she has sustained brain damage, and it appears quite significant. However, Michael has not allowed therapy or even working her muscles to prevent the contracturing of her muscles(shortening, hollowing, etc) The lack of intensive therapy has harmed her I am sure. If a person is restricted from utilizing brain function due to physical disability, it can weaken the brain. The lack of stimulus can enhance the damage. Additionally, although spinal cords and brain matter for a long time considered permanent once damage has occurred(due to the prior belief that damaged CNS/Brain could not regrow)it has been shown that BRAIN tissue can regrow in certain situations. It is poorly understood but recently we have had some ‘PVS’ people come out of their comas…miracles do happen, and all is possible with God. I truly believe she is severely brain damaged, but I also believe in science that we do not understand and that hasn’t been understood. The medical community has told people they were dying of invasive cancers and to expect death-to have them recover. Many times people have been given death sentences and survived. In my youth I had severe damage to my arm, it was so burned and crushed…we are talking late 50’s, and my prognosis was POOR-I would lose my arm with amputation, as during treatment, the gangrene was encroaching on my entire arm. Well, they said if they salvaged it, it would be short and useless…I have my arm, I am in later 40’s and it is completely functional, and looks completely normal except for a LARGE scar—Man does not understand the ability of the body to heal, especially with mega prayer-it is not for man to starve the ones who do not measure up to our definition of normal, nor to kill the disabled. For such an advanced medical ability in this country, we are pathetic in our total understanding. In all the years of working, I have seen people who have even 1/3 of a body, from severe injuries: no legs, no sexual organs, no bathroom except bags-believe it or not, no one can truly speak for another. This one gal in particular I am speaking of-she was so positive, even with only a chest and a head-she was grateful she was alive-when many would be wishing for death. She was glad to be 2 feet tall versus dead. Who are we to judge the quality of life once life changes us-just as many Downs’ children are happy-they are not thinking about their different physical features or the slowness-they are happy-we are the ones who are miserable and judging that which we know not. Time to think outside of the box, time to expect miracles is upon us-let us all pray that Terri doesn’t understand how many wish her dead. I wish only life for her until God calls her home, not by mans hand. If the glory of God can be revealed through her, let it be, and expect this, for one way or the other, God causes ALL things to be perfected-even the dark hearts of evil meant against us shall be used to lift the righteous up.
Interesting article Schiavo Lesson on Judiciary Trump Card at the Times. Notable excerpt:
An assessment of the implications of the Congressional Act giving federal courts jurisdiction over the Florida state court case involving Terri Schiavo, Incapacited, is given at FindLaw.com.
The Cassel article contains this link which recounts the tortuous history of this litigation and its timeline. I wonder where the Schindlers and Michael Schiavo got the money to continue this litigation, only because that would indicate who’s contest this really is.
Michael Schiavo has used the money he got in the malpractice settlement against Terri’s doctors to pay for litigation. I think, but I’m not sure, that the ACLU may be helping him as well. I don’t know if there are other sources or not.
The Schindlers have probably burned through all their savings, but most of their legal costs are being paid for by right-wing philantropists, the same ones who support pro-life causes.
I am shocked at the lies and spiritual blackmail attempts being used to try to force the agenda of ‘christian’ extremists on our our legal system. We are a nation of laws. Conceived in that way to protect religious freedom. These people seem to be trying to force a national religion on us. For a voice of spiritual sanity I like http://www.interfaithalliance.org/site/pp.asp?c=8dJIIWMCE&b=447561
According their site:
Only the Terri Schindler-Schiavo Foundation and Life Legal Defense Foundation collect donations for the direct purpose of protecting Terri. ( http://www.lldf.org/ )… that latter I’ve been unable to connect to for a while but Life Legal Defense Foundation (according to http://www.mcgeorge.edu/academics/curriculum_catalog/full_course_descriptions/life_legal_defense_foundation_clinic.htm) is ” a nonprofit organization that provides legal aid to individuals injured by discrimination based on their support of alternatives to abortion and euthanasia. Constitutional legal issues are typically involved, such as free exercise of speech, free exercise of sincerely held beliefs, and equal protection under the law. ” (I love Google) At http://journals.aol.com/shjusticeforall/SavingTerriSchiavo/entries/882 I found reference to funding also from Arizona-based Alliance Defense Fund http://www.alliancedefensefund.org. The latter is the big guns I think. Guessing from the whois records:
lldf.org whois record:
Registrant: Make this info private
Life Legal Defense Foundation (20298489O)
PO Box 2105
Napa, CA 94558
US
Phone: 999-999-9999
Fax: 999-999-9999
Domain Name: LLDF.ORG
Administrative Contact :
Life Legal Defense Foundation (RM465-ORG)
MaryRiley@COMPUSERVE.COM
PO Box 2105
Napa, CA 94558
US
Phone: 707-224-6675
Fax: 707-224-6676
Technical Contact :
Telepacific Communication,
(HO3310-ORG)
hostmaster@telepacific.com
515 South Flower Street
47th Floor
Los Angeles, CA 90071-2201
US
Phone: 213-213-3000
Fax: 213-545-7845
AllianceDefencefund.org Whois record:
Domain ID:D2585068-LROR
Domain Name:ALLIANCEDEFENSEFUND.ORG
Created On:23-Feb-1998 05:00:00 UTC
Last Updated On:11-Jan-2005 00:30:31 UTC
Expiration Date:22-Feb-2006 05:00:00 UTC
Sponsoring Registrar:DSTR Holdings, Inc. (R34-LROR)
Status:OK
Registrant ID:DOTR-00559863
Registrant Name:Jon Cline
Registrant Organization:Alliance Defense Fund
Registrant Street1:15333 N. Pima Road
Registrant Street2:Suite 165
Registrant Street3:
Registrant City:Scottsdale
Registrant State/Province:AZ
Registrant Postal Code:85260
Registrant Country:US
Registrant Phone:+1.4804440020
Registrant Phone Ext.:
Registrant FAX:+1.4804440025
Registrant FAX Ext.:
Registrant Email:jcline@alliancedefensefund.org
Admin ID:DOTC-02982475
Admin Name:Jon Cline
Admin Organization:Alliance Defense Fund
Admin Street1:15333 N. Pima Road
Admin Street2:Suite165
Admin Street3:
Admin City:Scottsdale
Admin State/Province:AZ
Admin Postal Code:85260
Admin Country:US
Admin Phone:+1.4804440020
Admin Phone Ext.:
Admin FAX:+1.4804440025
Admin FAX Ext.:
Admin Email:jcline@alliancedefensefund.org
Tech ID:DOTC-01998710
Tech Name:Jon Cline
Tech Organization:Alliance Defense Fund
Tech Street1:15333 N. Pima Road
Tech Street2:Suite 165
Tech Street3:
Tech City:Scottsdale
Tech State/Province:AZ
Tech Postal Code:85260
Tech Country:US
Tech Phone:+1.4804440020
Tech Phone Ext.:
Tech FAX:+1.4804440025
Tech FAX Ext.:
Tech Email:jcline@alliancedefensefund.org
I have read through this blog hoping to find some info on if the patient has ever had an functional MRI. It appears to me, as a neuroscientist, that most have a basic misunderstanding of how the brain works and what it means to be “alert” and/or “responsive”. Moreover, there does not seem to be any understanding of the correlation between the extent of brain damage and conscious awareness, which of course is related to the previous misunderstanding.
First off, a CT scan or an MRI will never you tell anyone anything about anyone’s brain activity. This can be done in a crude manner by measuring evoked-potentials from the skull in response to stimuli, or more elegantly with functional MRI (fMRI) which is an extension of a standard MRI in which metabolic energy consumption in the brain can be measured in response to a variety of stimuli. I have been unable to find any evidence that Terri has ever had an fMRI, but even if she has, it would be exceedingly difficult to rule out that she has any higher brain function. It is quite easy to provide evidence, but nearly impossible to provide evidence of absence. Having said that, her CT scan, no matter how old, quite clearly illustrates that she has expansive brain damage. So the question is, how does this correlate to behavior. As far as I know there is NO true way to predict brain function based on the extent of damage. The tiniest stroke can be utterly devasting, whereas massive infarcts can lead to basically no behavioral manifestations that will affect someone’s daily life. Several people have mentioned, though, that she didn’t have a stroke, but that her heart stopped beating. It doesn’t matter what the cause was, she had an interruption of blood to the brain and, therefore, a loss of oxygen. This loss of oxygen, or ischemia, if sustained for more than several tens of seconds, will cause brain damage.
So what to make of her brain damage and behavior. Following familiar people with the eyes is easily explained as a reflex, as is smiling or even making sounds in response to other sounds, etc.. Not that a comparison should be made between Terri and an infant, but, even the smallest infants respond favorably to certain types of faces, music, etc.. They clearly have not had time to learn that these things are favorable or that they “like” them, however, they respond in a manner in which we interpret as “likeful” nonetheless. This is because, in all likelihood, these behaviors are inborn, or instinctive. Whether or not Terri is responding through an instinctive related pathway, which need not involve any higher cortical function (even the visual cortex is not needed, it can be carried through the supior colliculus), or if she is minimally conscious is open for debate. The fact, though, that she illustrates no other forms of higher function or mental processing strongly suggests that she has none.
It is my understanding that an MRI cannot be performed because right after the heart attack, Michael took Terri to California where an experimental procedure was performed the implanted electrodes in her skull which then sent small electrical signals to her brain in an attempt to regenerate tissue. This failed. But not all of what was implanted was taken out. And given the nature of MRIs, if you have implants in your body, particularly any metal, this will cause injury if you submit to an MRI.
I used this in arguing against tattoos to my daughter a year ago (many of the tattoo inks have metal in them).
I’m not a doctor, I only examine them in my work as a worker’s comp attorney. So if there are any docs out there who can further enlighten us on the implant/no MRI issue, that would be great.
Because of a reference made to it on NPR’s All Things Considered, I looked up a State of Texas law on advanced health directives which President George W Bush signed in 1999 when he was governor.
Not a bad law, that.
Is is too much to ask consistency?
http://msnbc.msn.com/id/7012320/ has ballpark figures on how much national right to life groups have paid the Schindlers – in the millions of dollars in legal assistance both in kind and dollars. It is obscene.
Whether I have a basic understanding of how an MRI works or not, I certainly understand that it is not possible to have an MRI performed when there are metal and plastic foreign “gadgets” implanted inside one’s skull.
And, if it is “major surgery” to have those gadgets removed, just so an MRI can be performed, there is no reason to perform such surgery on a dying person. IOW, it does not matter a hill of beans at this late date and would prove nothing that we do not already know. [Baring those who believe that G-d is in the habit of replacing destroyed brains, providing we keep bodies alive for more than 15 years.]
It is also easy to understand why her parents have never been interested in having an MRI performed. It would not help their case and would not have changed the course of action of the courts or of Mr. Schiavo.
While this case seems to hinge on feeding tubes, and brain scans, and whether it is wrong for the government to kill a “healthy” young woman, the most troubling aspects are (1) the ease with which it is possible to gin up the public into crazed hysteria through illogic and lies (Hitler knew that people will believe anything if it is phrased slyly enough), (2) the ease of some politicians to blindly pander to an hysterical public while disregarding the Constitution as if it didn’t even exist, and (3) the diabolically cleverness by which the “loving parents” managed to turn the public against a man who has done nothing wrong in his care for their daughter. Indeed, the husband made certain that every available cent has gone to Terri’s care, yet her parents stooped to dramatic acting out and constructed hate-filled lies about him, and the hysterical public fell for their entire pack of lies.
What is most shocking about this case is the eagerness in which certain elected Republicans are willing to politicize this case (while hoping for approval and checks from their far-Right constituents) rather than uphold their sworn oath to the Constitution. I have been an active Republican for many years, but I am so thoroughly disgusted that I am going to withhold my normal contributions. When I am contacted, I’m going to remind those seeking funds that they did not uphold the Constitution, and they can get their money from Randall Terry and the far-Right wing (fat chance! that bunch are notoriously tight with their wallets and very slow to pay). I see no need to “forgive” those politicians who refuse to use the brains that G-d gave them and speak the truth, even if the right-wing whackos go crazy.
What is most disgusting about this case is the greed of the Schindlers. Since the day the settlement money was forthcoming they have been ceaseless in their demands that Mr. Schiavo write them a huge check as their share. Their greed is both sickening and senseless. They are not obligated for one red cent of the medical bills for Terri’s care, so WHY do they need money? Why are they raising money? Why do they need to make money “for Terri?” The only logical answer is that they want money. Back in 1993 they demanded that Mr. Schiavo buy them a house. How would buying the Schindlers a house help Terri? They are so full of hatred for their son-in-law that they are willing to blame him for her condition, even though it leads to a contradictory theory. They are willing to take the money that resulted from a medical claim, yet they intimate that Mr. Schiavo was responsible for her condition. How can they try to get money from blaming the doctors and at the same time, blame Mr. Schiavo ? How can they have the claims both ways?
Their hatred toward Michael Schiavo is stunning and wrong. He has operated with the the overview of the courts since 1993 and the courts have found nothing wrong with his care for Terri. In fact, the courts have commended him. Judge Greer wrote about the “greed” of the Schindlers and that their major concern was “getting some money” from Mr. Schiavo. Yet, the Schindlers have been able to very cleverly turn the microscope away from them, and toward the “evil” husband.
I see the Schindlers as evil for the lies they are telling. They should be ashamed, but they are shameless. They would have shut up a long time ago if Michael Schiavo had merely written them a check. To his credit, he kept all of the money for Terri’s care. He is the good guy. The parents are skunks! I cannot express my disdain for the antics of her parents.
Mrs. Schindler is “chewing up the furniture” in front of the clinic with her melodramatic antics, when, in fact, she has not had very much time for Terri over the past 15 years. She turns into a suffering “mother” when the cameras are on. In fact, she sent Terri back to the nursing home a few days of trying to take care of her 12 years ago, and has let her lay in a bed, mostly alone, since then. (Just ask those who have worked in those homes over the years about how often the Schindlers visit and how much they “work” with Terri.)
Mary Schindler swoons and faints/feigns with emotion when the cameras are on, and blames the medical community for “starving” her daughter. She blames the politicans for “killing” her daughter. She blames Michael Schiavo for “not caring” for her daughter. Every single one of those statements are lies. She does not seem to care who she hurts or what lies she tells. Only that she “looks” like a deeply grieving mother.
Her daughter had an eating condition that ruined her health. [Was there something in her upbringing that caused her to have such severe psychological problems?] Her weight fluctuated dramatically, which is terribly dangerous. However, it seems that Terri didn’t believe that dangerous life choices would affect her. [What is it about this family, that normal rules don’t apply to them?] Terri ruined her own health by her own conscious actions. Unfortunately, we have to live by our decisions. Except, of course, the precious Schindlers. Normal rules don’t seem to apply to them. The rest of the country loses family members every single minute of every single hour of every single day without involving the President of the United States, the US Senate, the US House of Representatives, the Supreme Court, the State of Florida, the Governor of Florida, the Florida Senate, the Florida House of Representatives, Florida Child Services, the Florida Supreme Court, every newspaper, TV station, radio station, almost every Internet blog, dozens of doctors, hundreds of ethicists, untold numbers of citizens, and even opinion in foreign countries. The Schindlers have managed to divide our country. I will never forgive them, and I will continue to stand up for Mr. Schiavo, who has been demonized for doing the right thing for his “wife” who is not really his wife, because none of us are anything without a brain.
http://pekinprattles.blogspot.com/2005/03/schiavo-dr-cranford-offers-reply.html has a thorough explanation on the imaging issues. This is Dr. Cranford who was one of the neurologists who examined Terri thoroughly and competently.
oops forgot to say – that was for Ted – re. the MRI and other imaging issues.
Thanks Di for the info…
IF the doctors implanted thalamic stimulators in her brain, at any point, they would have seen with their own eyes the extent of the damage since they would have had to either 1) open her skull to put them in or 2) use a CT scan to judge the location of the thalamus. With that extent of degeneration they could not possibly have gone by normal coordinates because her thalamus is mostly gone, and that which is left would have moved about somewhat (not literally moved but the location would be impossible to judge without prior knowledge, and a normal person would not be adequate to make such a judgement).
I completely disagree about the PET thing though. There are tons of hospitals that are perfectly capable of doing PET scans, they are as routine as they come. In a case like this, though, you don’t need the world’s greatest PET analyzer, the damage is so extensive, based on the CT, that it would be plain as day.
Also, I seriously doubt if the thalamic stimulators are still in there, so she could probably have an MRI. One needs to have some brain matter to chronically implant the electrodes for the stimulator, unless they are anchored to the skull (which they clearly are not), and it doesn’t appear that she has much brain matter to keep the stimulators in place. Moreover, they wear out and it has been 15 years since they were implanted. On the other hand, Dr Crawford states that she has had EEGs and there was no measurable brain activity. That being the case, there is no need for an fMRI either (at least in my opinion) but it could provide more evidence and could explain some of her instinctive behavior, which the family seems to think is “alertness”, if they could show that it was associated with hindbrain motor and sensory function and nothing else. This would be more than overkill, but, it seems that is what is needed to convince 18% of the population.
Hopefully this tragic situation will not only stimulate some debate leading to some meaningful legislation concerning right to die issues. Moreover, I hope it will cause more people to reflect on what consciousness really means and educate themselves more on their brain and how it works. The USA is literally full of neuroscientists who are eager to interact and educate the general public. Unfortunately, we are often thwarted by groups such as PETA who threaten us, or right wing activitist who block us from talking about things like evolution when we try to talk to young people in their schools about science, and the biological sciences in particular. For instance, the Society for Neuroscience (a group of 35,000 strong neuroscientists) conducts a national program every year where we go out and talk about the brain in schools. Unfortunately, we have largely been reduced to bringing out sponges that resemble the brain and talking about subjects that insult the intellegence of the nation’s youth because we would not be allowed in the door if we were to speak about anything that might be seen as controversial (evolution) even though there is no controversy over whether or not evolution occurs.
Well, I’ve gone on to long already…
The CT scan posted above reveals all you need to know. Terri’s brain is half gone. My wife is a radiologist who has treated Terri and seen the actual CT. Those who think an MRI is needed are deluding themselves.
……………Bob
Can someone please tell me why this woman, who did not want to be kept alive through a feeding tube *was* kept alive for 15 years, but now should be allowed to die? I could go with the “her heart stopped beating for 15 minutes and a week later she was dead” scenario. I am having a lot of trouble with allowing her to live for 15 years on a feeding tube, but now someone says it’s time for her to die. How can I possibly believe a word her husband says, if he wanted to honor her wishes so badly, wouldn’t he have allowed her to die 15 years ago?
Radar:
It took a few years for her husband to conclude that Terri was gone and no recovery was possible. After that, he tried to let her die, but her parents sued and it’s been tied up in the courts ever since.
Well, you can hardly blame the parents. They have gotten used to the idea that their daughter will probably never walk or talk again. Now they are being forced to watch her die knowing that it doesn’t have to happen. It’s a sad situation all the way around.
At this point, pinning everything on her supposed wish not to be kept alive this way seems backwards. If we’re going to make this all about her wishes not to have life support then we shouldn’t even be having this discussion, because Terri would not be her. Under the circumstances (and I do believe these are special circumstances) I think the husband should say, if the parents want to keep her on life support then let them. The husband can walk away knowing he did all he could.
Radar, I don’t blame the parents. I’m sure they’re acting in what they think are their daughter’s best interests.
Nor do I blame the husband, who I think is also, in all liklihood, trying to do his best for her. I understand that you disagree with him, but I really don’t think it’s your place – or mine – to cast judgement on what Michael, or what Terri’s parents, do in this unbelievably hard situation.
I do think that some people – the politicians and activists – have acted badly in this case. But I don’t blame any of Terri’s relatives, including Michael.
I’ve never really wanted a tattoo, but after reading the many, many comments & reading (here and otherwhere) about the problems with medical directives & living wills, I’m strongly considering tattooing “Do not resuscitate” on my chest & getting a medical directive tattooed on my back.
I don’t blame either of them as this is an incredibly difficult situation. I do think the parents are letting themselves be manipulated, and I need to ask myself how they can let that happen, particularly when they’ve got to realize how many resources are being expended to mount this campaign. I mean, all hospitals have triage policies, have to have triage policies when their resources are overwhelmed by, say, a multicar pileup or something comparable. It’s a recognition that it’s not always possible to help everybody, that we are finite beings with finite resources and knowledge.
Michael has got to be highly principled and loyal. I mean, it’d be so darn easy to walk away.
Back to the Schindlers, it use to be that the only folks that used to be able to mount this degree of legal assault were the rich. This is a new kind of elite, based upon issues and causes. Nevertheless, there’s something wrong feeling about it, even sick, like Ahab persuing his great white whale, and that applies to whether the rich consume these kind of resources or causes do.
Evaluating their situation as a parent, all parenting is about letting go, letting your kids grow up and take risks. You need to be there for them, even if they mess up, but it’s finally their life. Still, I can’t imagine what death of one of my kids would be like, so I don’t know the space they are in. But that death happened in 1990, in this case, and that moment when they took Michael Schiavo on legally rather than coming to final terms with the loss was really transforming for them. I feel the entire cause has become what they do instead of living, moving on.
Jake, don’t! One of the several things I’ve learned from reading about this case is that many tattoo inks are metal based and will interfere with MRIs if they are attempted.
Another thing I learned is that in some states, including my State of New York, a Living Will does not suffice. You also need a Health Care Proxy and a Durable Power of Attorney. Also, apparently, in New York, there’s nothing to indicate priority to spouse or relatives in the case of there not being any kind of advanced directive.
There is a pretty good article titled “Terri Schiavo’s unstudied life” in the Post.
That is a good article – thanks for posting it.
I wonder why these things are coming out now? There’s another article in USAToday which includes the interesting information
Yeah, that’s Randall Terry alright. The above is from the Kansas City Star.
The Post article was interesting and pointed out the severity of her weight “yoyo.” We have seen pictures of TS as a slim young girl and as a “hefty” bride. The Post article says that she was over 200 in school, but lost 50 pounds before she met Michael. Then, she obviously went back up again at the time of her wedding, but at the time of her “attack” she weighted a mere 110. That is a range of 100 pounds and is very dangerous.
I Terry was indeed “innocent” if she wrote “hundreds” of letters to Starsky and Hutch, and wrote to John Denver asking him to sing at her wedding.
As a neurologist with extensive experience in end-of-life decisions, it has often been my experience that in such hopeless cases as these, where there is no hope of meaningful recovery and further medical care is futile; and when there is a severe and intractable difference of opinion in the family, it is the estranged family members who do not want to “pull the plug.” I cannot explain it; perhaps, having failed to have a good relationship with the dying person in life, they want to “make it up” to the patient by refusing to withdraw life support. A more cynical view might be that keeping a person alive indefinitely, thus robbing them of all dignity, is the estranged person’s final revenge.
Therefore I am suspicious (though I know of no independent proof) that secant’s opinion of the Schindlers may well be the correct one.
My husband and I sent the following thank you to Judge Greer. I think given all the death threats, spiritual blackmail and slime he’s been subjected to, that maybe some of us people of conscience and rationality might let him know how we feel as well. Feel free to adapt our letter. The address is publicly available on the Pinella’s County Web site. :
Honorable Judge George W. Greer
Rm. 484, 315 Court Street
Clearwater, FL 33756
Dear Judge Greer
Thank you very much for upholding the rule of law. Clearly it has been difficult to do so in the Schiavo case. We both felt we needed to send you our support and gratitude for upholding the laws of the United States and of the state of Florida in this matter. The people of the state of Florida chose well when they chose you. We respect your courage and integrity in continuing to make wise, rational, and informed decisions based in law and on the facts of the case, in the face of extreme provocation, threats, and spiritual blackmail.
Sincerely,
Diane
Michael
p.s. We have both read all of the rulings and as much of the other court documents as we have been able to find (mainly http://abstractappeal.com/). As a result of this tragic case and the media and political circus that has formed around it, we’ve both created our living wills and durable powers of attorney according to the laws of our state.
Oh, yeah, this is good. Not.
Thanks for posting that, Diane. May do the same.
This is not in any record other than the court transcript, so I thought I’d post it here, as quoted from ABC News:
Some people try to achieve objectives using any means.
Up until I saw Terri’s CT scan just a moment ago, I was adamantly against the removal of her feeding tube. Now that I have seen it for myself, I realize that I would not want to live like this either. Her scan shows absolutely devastating damage unlike I have seen in a long time. The pictures don’t lie, and now I feel so sad for her parents trying so hard to hold on to their baby as long as they can, just as I would be so compelled to do if it were my son. I hope that they can hold on to their faith in God and in the fact that the next time they see their daughter it will be in a better place, where she’ll be as beautiful as they remember her to have been.
Y’know, when Terri Schiavo Incapacited passes, I wouldn’t be at all surprised if the Committee Disrespecting the Law outside will make an attempt to snatch the body, in order to take it and bury it someplace. I mean, we’ve got a priest or brother encouraging Gov Jeb Bush to disregard a court order and remove Schiavo by force to a hospital, and Buchanan saying W should send in federal marshalls to do the same.
The Committee will say there was no specific court order against removing the body, and they couldn’t allow Schiavo to be cremated as her guardian wants. And they’ll probably get enough general public support and apathy to let it happen.
They’ll then have a site of a “martyr” to visit and will have triumphed in an important way, however small, over the Justice system.
Despite what anyone says, this whole thing is dangerous for rule of law.
What does it matter what a C Scan shows? I thought the legal point is that Terri’s husband “says” Terri’s wish was to die. Nothing in writing, just hear-say.
Hear-say doesn’t work in court, or so I thought.
Lloyd, the case is very complicated and has gone over all this stuff in great detail. Please see some of the excellent summaries linked above.
This case has a higher implication in law about who can decide another’s fate in situation like this. Not necessarily regardng Terri condition. I would think we need a law such as one that requires a unanimous vote from immediate family member including spouse and parents to make a life or death decision. Don’t we need a unanimous vote from a jury for a guilty verdicts in death sentence cases? In this case, it only make sense if Terri’s parent and husband agree. Why do we want to prevent Terri’s parent’s wish to take care of Terri’s body, live or death? If one has to choose, it is the parent who has more legal authority to decide, because they are related by blood, not a marriage certificate. After all, don’t people divorce and remarried? Can one change parents like a divorce? As a parent, I have no doubt, nothing is greater than the love of parents for their child. Are we afraid the parent won’t make the best decision for their child? How can any legal system have more say than the parent when it comes to keeping their child alive (or alive in their own perception) ? What is the negative implication for anyone else in this world? US has a great legal system. But this one decision is baffling and illustrates how intrusive the system is on people’s lives.
Not sure if I buy this, considering the source, but they are making claims that Ralph Nader, Jesse Jackson, Kent Conrad, and Jose Serrano are supporting an executive overrule of the oourts by Florida governor Jeb Bush.
Either way, it’s bad.
If these folks have allowed their emotions or, worse, political ambitions to overcome their allegiance to due process, we are entering a time of lawlessness, when the mob and legislatures can override deliberative judicial decisions.
If this is a fabrication, this is a new low — that these people probably won’t get called on — for propaganda. A polity which is fed and accepts such information uncritically and without the anchor of Constitutional principles has given up its democracy.
I say again, France, 1789.
Llloyd, the current comprehensive trail on the Schiavo case is presented by FindLaw.com.
I am astonished at the lack of voice from the Women Rights advocates. If Terri Schiavo has been physically abused by Michael Schiavo, which I understand has substantial evidence that will be presented upon Terri’s death due to legal terms, and led to Terri Schiavo’s heart attack, the courts have essentially provided the male abuser with the right to terminate his female victim’s life. This is an enormous setback in protecting sexually/physically abused spouses when they are incapable of defending themselves, whether unwilling or unable. For example, if a suspected male abuser beats his wife into a coma a lawyer may use the Schiavo case to further the husband’s efforts in terminating the wife’s life. As a Pre-Law student, I will be very interested in examining this case if in fact Terri’s parents pursue a rigorous investigation and charging Michael Schiavo with murder or manslaughter. The case may, in fact, lead to a loophole allowing sexual/physical abusers to terminate their victims.
Vehong says:
These parents also want to enforce Catholic rules on their daughter, including administration of last rites and burial instead of cremation. Now, Terri Schiavo may have been a practicing Catholic. I won’t argue whether she was or wasn’t here. But suppose a person was not? Suppose the daughter converted to a different religion and the parents see this as their last opportunity to “save the daughter’s immortal soul”? Should the parents have the right to override a spouse or even interfere with a spouse because “the parent is related by blood” or because “the parent knows best for a child”? Why not give them that right even if a Living Will is written? Why can’t the same argument give them the chance to override and contest it?
It can. So, it’s unacceptable.
The testimony of Father Gerard Murphy during the trial makes it clear that in the 2 years prior to her heart attack, Mrs. Schiavo had not received what the Roman Catholic Church terms ‘holy communion.’ It was phrased to him in the form of a hypothetical “assume that” yet the Schindler’s attorney did not object to the question, which I am sure she would have if there were not facts in evidence sufficient to support the hypothetical. The testimony is listed on the UMiami website.
Matthew,
The guardian ad litem‘s report dealt with the question of puported abuse on the part of Michael Schiavo, concluding in part:
The NPR interview with Terri Schiavo Incapacited‘s former guardian recounts the things Michael Schiavo did to try to bring Terri back, until he finally concluded these efforts were in vain.
Finally, it strains credulity that someone, having attempted the murder of his wife and successfully escaped detection despite innumerable third party investigations over 15 years, would choose to remain her husband. It is far more plausible that Michael Schiavo remained so simply to protect the dignity and manner of her final death.
How do you know of “substantial evidence that will be presented upon Terri’s death”? If, in fact, such compelling evidence exists, isn’t its proper place of presentation during these hearings which were already held? Where did this evidence come from, 15 years after the incident? Isn’t it more likely this is simply another construction and fabrication to delay and manipulate courts and public? Or, if it has been held back, what kind of real caring for their daughter does this represent? Isn’t pure vengeance and spite a better explanation of holding this back? And if the Schindlers were in possession of such evidence but did not introduce it, weren’t Micheal Schiavo‘s due process rights violated?
Law is about fact and legal principle, Matthew, not about cleverness in maneuver or posturing.
I haven’t received Communion in the last four years, and I am a practicing Catholic.
Someone not taking Communion is not dispositive. There are a number of legitimate reasons not to take the sacrament.
JTG–I did see part of an interview last night, where Jesse Jackson said something similar to that article’s quote:
“I think the feeding tube should be reinstated,” Jackson said in a statement and adding that she is “brain impaired” not “brain dead.”
Basically that he thought the “starvation” was cruel, etc. I don’t know if he or any of the others mentioned are actually getting any more involved than that. If so….it’s a shame. (And a bit foolish considering how the conservative politicians involvement is biting them in the butt…).
Interestingly, the program Jackson was on, also asked opinions of a Catholic priest & a Baptist minister…guess which one thought it was ok to remove the feeding tube?
Robert, I might as well get my biases out here, too. I was raised as a Catholic, and formally converted to Judaism when I was 27. Technically, I am still considered a Catholic, and I’m sure my parents consider me so.
Robert: Not according to Father Murphy’s testimony. I would hie thee to confession right soon.
Ok, Robert, you made me go back to the testimony of Father Murphy. Here it is at pages 16 and 17 of the transcript:
Q Let me rephrase it. Does the church have any particular definition of what a
17
practicing Catholic is?
A Certainly. We have what we call Easter duty, which means sometime from Lent to Trinity Sunday, in that three or four month window, a Catholic is required to receive holy communion. If necessary, confession. Catholics are mortally bound to assist at mass. Attend mass every Sunday. Every holy day of obligation. Certainly those are all criteria for a practicing Catholic.
Q If Theresa Schiavo had not taken communion over a two year period before her medical incident and not participated in confession, would she be considered by the church to be a practicing Catholic?
A Not according to the criteria. No. Practicing, no.
Thanks, C.Snyder. That
is simply bad, in my opinion, of course.
On
logic would say it had to be the Baptist minister, but was there a surprise in the program? Was it the priest, C.Snyder?
God bless terri schiavo.
Off-topic, but tattoo ink will not boil out of your skin or something if you get an mri. The most that could happen is if you get a tattoo with some seriously un-professional old-school ink that is heavy black and nothing else, it might interfere with the mri. But it won’t hurt you. And normal, safe, professional modern tattoos will not do anything.
Seriously, I saw it on Mythbusters.
Who said it would do that? It seems to me it suffices to interfere with the quality of the MRI to be a bad idea.
Regarding Texas Congressman and House Majority Leader DeLay’s high profile intervention in the Terri Schiavo case, the Times sayshe’s melting into the woodwork.
Yeah, that’s what these emotion-based issue people count on.
This is in response to Jan Theodore Galkowski’s previous repsonse to mine. Jan’s argument to me applies to any one who we give the decision to including Michael, isn’t it? That’s why my previous post suggested the court should require a unaimous vote from the immediate family as in the case of a quilty verdict for a death sentence case. For Michael, he can just walk away and forget about Terri’s body and go on with his life. Terri’s parent would take up the responsibility they ask for. As for the court, is it afraid that the body they said cannot feel anything will suffer because the parent want to take care of it? On the contrary, to allow a body to die like a flower withering is so inhuman I cannot believe there are people supporting that. It is extremely stupid to me. Imagine Terri’s parent watching the body wither. It is like their daughter dies a second time, and this time, only more horrifying.