Above: Photo from a vigil held outside the house where the rape took place.
* If you want to follow this story, the blog to read is Justice 4 Two Sisters.
* 15 of the lacrosse team members have been arrested before – mostly minor stuff, like drinking.
* Duke has canceled all lacrosse games until there is a “clearer resolution.”
* From the blog Life In The Chocolate City:
One of the young ladies was held down, beaten, choked, raped and sodomized. The police reports say that in the house they found her fingernails, her make-up bag and her cellphone. This is certainly the customary items a woman leaves behind after entertaining a group of athletes right? It’s typical for a white guy to holler out “Thank your grandpa for my cotton shirt” while getting a lapdance from a Black woman right? Of course it isn’t. […]
Let’s just imagine that this assault took place at a predominately Black university and the victims were white, this would’ve been front page national news. […] It seems to me that this story has remained local to the North Carolina area. Their media is covering the story completely, but what about the rest of the nation. You can’t tell me that this isn’t newsworthy. It sure is newsworthy to African-Americans.
He’s right.
And regarding the details of the rape: These are mainstream, clean-cut, normal young American men. But look at the miles-deep reservoirs of woman-loathing and Black-loathing they were carrying around, just waiting for the right (wrong) situation.
Are all men like this? God no. But too many are – too many for it to be called abnormal. Cultural masculinity is a sickness that can turn men into monsters, and men in college sports are exposed to more of this virulent stuff than anyone. Do I excuse these rapists? No, of course not – they are responsible for what they’ve done, and I fervently hope they rot behind bars. But until our culture completely changes the way we construct masculinity, boys with their heart set on demonstrating their masculinity to their friends/teammates/frat brothers/whatever are going to keep on committing gang rapes.
Porn spam I routinely delete from comments sometimes uses phrases like “teen rape” and “black bitch gets raped” for a sales pitch. Why do they think they’ll make money with ads like that? Presumably, because they are making money with ads like that. Ordinary men, drawing on their own internal woman-loathing and Black-loathing, are plunking down money to masturbate to porn labeled “black bitch gets raped.” How awful is a culture in which that’s seen as no big deal?
Anyhow, more posts and articles worth reading:
I’ll put the race issue aside. This is also the result of universities allowing a negative athlete culture. More than a few studies have shown that athletes and frat boys are more likely to rape than other men, in part because all-male environments encourage aggressive and violent displays of manhood.
Q Grrl: Background From The Local Community
The town is pissed. Royally. And we’ve been pissed at the lacrosse team players and coach for the last ten years … even though the players obviously rotate out after 4 years. The team is notorious for it’s disruptive behavior in the neighborhoods around Duke. I lived across from the main lacrosse house for 7 years … and I can no longer count my calls to 911. In fact, a call I made a few years back resulted in 67 citations for underage drinking … the coach didn’t bat an eye. Similarly, I know that at one point, campus women were aware of sexual assault and harassment by lacrosse players. The house they lived in was repeatedly toilet papered … and once, upon seeing the black-clad women tp-ing the house I asked why. Their reply: to warn other undergraduate women that a woman had been assualted while at a lacrosse party.
Pinko Feminist Hellcat: Race, Entitlement and Rape
Don’t doubt for a minute that these women will be slut-baited. We already know what happens to women who are deemed sexual–they are sluts, whores, asking for it. They are suddenly trying to recapture lost virute. They are golddiggers trying to get cash on a false rape charge. Maybe they’ll be deemed crazy and therefore uncredible. Maybe the defense will decide that they really, really need their medical records and–ooops!–just release them accidentally on purpose. It’s happened before.
David Wright: Message to Duke Lacrosse Players
There are only two possibilities I see here. Either you come forward with the truth that reveals none of the criminal allegations actually happened or you come forward with the truth that at least with respect to some of your teammates, some or all of the allegations are true. To refuse to come forward with either version is to take the absolute worst course of action. If indeed that girl was raped, she is certainly some father’s little girl, and she could be some brother’s sister. If she was your sister, would you refuse to come forward with the truth to protect the “code” among your teammates?
(See David’s other posts on the subject, here and here).
Ruth Sheehan: Team’s Silence Is Sickening
Jill Hopman: Duke’s Lacrosse Players Still Defiantly Partying
Reflections of a Redhead: Break Room Conversation
Wouldn’t it be great to live in a country which had gotten beyond “well she deserved it” attitudes?
Dreams Into Lightning Pulls Together A Lot Of Interesting Connections
The iPinions Journal discusses how media coverage varies according to race.
Lacrosse has always been chock-full of the same types that later commit the white-collar crimes like Enron: rich, white kids whose only possession greater than their wealth is their cockiness and general sense of untouchability. The only difference between them and what they will become thirty years down the road is a total misunderstanding of consequences, a dangerous ingredient.
* * *
Backwards Assholes Read Newspaper Websites
The readers’ comments at the News Observer blog are pretty appalling. Some examples:
These men have been hanged in the court of public opinion, justice and liberty be damned. Witch hunts in days of yore are referenced by feminazis as examples of historical misogony. They don’t question their own actions however when they are the ones hunting for punishment.
Yes, because getting angry and demanding an investigation is exactly the same thing as burning innocent people to death.
But what do I know, I’m still assuming that if 3 actually are guilty, forty some other guys aren’t. But that’s crazy, men are evil, right?
I don’t think that men who watch and do nothing as three of their buddies drag an unwilling woman into a bathroom are innocent. I’m not sure what exactly it is that they’re guilty of, but I sure hope a courtroom soon finds out.
Praising protestors (who may have in fact been trespassing) for supporting a woman who may very well have been breaking the law (in working for an escort service) due to her allegations that have NOT been proven to be true is shoddy writing, no matter if the writer is a reporter or a columnist.
Yes, trespassing; that’s what we should be focusing on here. That, and laws broken by the victim.
Some of you evidently haven’t read much about the evidence of this case. $ fingernails found in the bathroom. These were not Lee Press on Nails.. You can’t just pop them off, they hurt and sometimes bleed when they come off. I don’t believe the girl pulled her fingernails off, left her purse and $160.oo,cell phone and ID in the bathroom to frame some lacross players. That doesn’t even make sense! Why? What would be the point. If she is as battered and bruise as reports said, when did that happen? The five minutes it took to leave the house and get to the Kroger store? She may be a stripper, and maybe she has done a few tricks, I don’t know just putting it out there, but to volutarily have sex with three white guys in a bathroom and then leave all your stuff makes no sense. To be sure she would have taken her money and cell phone, ID….What woman do you know,especially a working girl leaves her money at the scene. If the DA really thinks there was an assult believe me the girl had many bruises, not just vaginal/anal tearing. She was probably beat up. You think she had the other stripper beat her in the car just to frame the guys. Not many women would willing let someone beat them in the face and bruise them up to fake a rape. Not black women anyway! I know, because I am one. We might throw a brick through a window, but we aren’t going to the police about some made-up stuff evolving white folks because we know that just isn’t going to wash.
True, a black woman would never go
Just ask Tawana Brawley, after all. Perhaps that’s a low blow, but your sweeping generalizations about what people would do (I’m a Japanese girl and wouldn’t cheat on my test, therefore no Japanese girls would ever cheat on their tests) seems a little… broad.
The propensity on this board to dismiss entirely even the possibility that the allegations are somewhat untrue is unnerving for a community that would usually be very much in favor of due process and evidence. Sure its just a blog and won’t, in and of itself, legally damage the defendants, but the fact that you blithely dismiss these comments as innocuous belies your understanding that these written words DO have an impact on public opinion.
No serious posters are claiming that the lacrosse team was composed of angels. Some of them are most likely guilty of being racist, overly rowdy, and even misogynistic. This fact, however, does not mean that they are rapists and should be prosecuted as such.
This country is going to hell.
Our society that is mostly seen as “black and white” has a serious race obsessive disorder. It makes me sick to my stomach to know how the “guilty” whites, not the “innocent” whites, have treated any person they have come in contact with through out our history: native americans, early mexicans, africans, and etc..
Apparently one of these sick men who allegedly participated in the rape of the african american girl, sent an email stating “I plan on killing the bitches as soon as the walk in and proceeding to cut their skin off,”. A minimized version of that stated actually could result in some broken fingernails and scattered remains of blood. If an african american guy directed that statement towards a “blue-eyed blonde haired girl”, this country would declare a state of emergency. It’s literally unmentionable as to what would happen if that were the actual case.
read article.
http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2006/more/04/05/duke.lacrosse.ap/index.html?cnn=yes
Ampersand:
I appreciate your saying that, though I’m disappointed that you go on to defend it.
I’m not sure that I would class them as lies. On first reading I thought he characterised his opponent’s positions fairly accurately – at least, no more inaccurately than is par for the course. When I went back to look for the post I thought he was referring to, I saw that he hadn’t. So, giving him the benefit of the doubt, I’d put it down to sloppiness – sloppy reading, sloppy checking, and sloppy expression, rather than a deliberate intention to misrepresent which the word ‘lie’ implies.
Moreover, Jim makes a valid point in his post, which you evade by focussing exclusively upon his inaccuracies. Several people seem to have argued that white suspects should be treated less favourably than blacks, and justified their stance by referring to past injustices committed against black suspects. In the specific post he was replying to, the exchange went like this:
Jim: We know that lacrosse players were there but are we prepared to look into every white male in the area? When police in Omaha took samples from two dozen black men to solve a rape case, the public went nuts calling it racial profiling.
Jerry: But all it takes is hearsay to put an African American male in jail with or without bail, when the purported crime committed is “black on white”. I’ve seen it many times you can’t convince me otherwise.
I don’t know about the Omaha case, and it may be that Jim mischaracterised it in some significant way, or there may be circumstances that differentiate that case from this one, and which justify a different treatment, or it may be that in that case, blacks were being put in jail based upon heresay, but Jerry didn’t say of these things. He merely offered the example of the historic and continuing unjust treatment of blacks suspected of crimes against whites, as an apparent justification for treating them differently – or perhaps as an explanation for why people argue differently in the two cases.
Now, I’ll buy that as an explanation, but not as a justification. The only thing that is justified by historic inequties against blacks, is that we should take extra care to do now, what we should have been doing all along, which is to demand the same (or similar) treatment for suspects in the same (or similar) circumstances, regardless of their colour, or that of their alledged victims.
Moreover, we should be demanding fair treatment. All the analysis in the world of past injustices against black suspects will not answer the question of whether it is fair to require forty-six-or-however-many-it-was men to give dna samples under the circumstances in which they did.
Personally, I strongly agree that it was in this case. If I knew more about the Omaha case, I might come to a different conclusion based upon different circumstances. But my conclusion would not be based upon the skin colour of either suspects or alleged victim.
Crys T was replying to a sequence which began with this post. She wasn’t talking about MRA’s in general. She was talking about “MRAs … [who] show up on rape threads”, and by implication, specifically the MRAs who have shown up on the recent set of rape posts. These MRAs are not a “large grou[p] of men”. They are a sufficently small group for me to feel personally implicated by Crys’s remark, given that the label gets pinned to me.
I’m sufficiently thick-skinned not to be bothered by aspersions like that – or even direct accusations – from people I have no particular regard for, but it’s disappointing when those remarks are defended by someone I consider to be a friend – and I do regard you as a friend, even though we go at each other hammer and tongs.
The rest of your defense fails on this point, but I’ll respond to your remarks anyway.
This is unsubstantiated speculation as I’m sure you would admit, but a very plausible one. I have two responses.
I would also expect that there are probably more rape victims among MRAs than among most groups of men. This is because I expect that male rape victims who have been subject to hostily, denial, discrimination, victim-blaming and bigotry from feminism are more likely to become MRAs. For these men “*being* raped” is not “all theoretical”, so Crys’s post fails the ‘truth’ criterion, even if we construe it as refering to MRAs in general. Moreover, it exemplifies precisely the hostility, denial, discrimination, victim-blaming and bigotry I was talking about.
I would also expect there are probably more false rape accusers among feminists than among most groups of women. This is because I expect that angry misandrists are more likely to falsely accuse, and there are more angry misandrists among feminists than among typical groups of women.
But if someone were to suggest that being raped was theoretical to women posting to rape threads , but false accusions wasn’t, then I’m pretty sure you would come down on that individual like a ton of bricks. I don’t think you’d countentance a ‘truth’ defence either.
So would I, and neither would I.
See? You move the goalpost again. Now the problem is no longer the lack of a direct quote by Jim of exactly what was alleged to be said, nor is it the lack of a sarcastic tone. Now it’s the lack of reference to the post being replied to. Do you really believe that I’m going to any more difficulty in getting the ball past the line than I did last time?
In fact I had no great difficulty in finding the post Jim was replying to. But who are the “rape apologists” Sheelzebub desn’t see censoring themseves? Are they on this blog? Where are they? Perhaps she should quote someone apologising for rape.
I knew sooner or later someone would bring up Twanda. That is the thing, no matter what happens, someone always brings up the one example they can find of when someone may have lied about something. Because Twanda may have lied this woman may be lying too. I doubt that the two came up with a conspiracy together. Of course all black women are not above lying to get what they want, no one is, but what could she possibly want. It happened off campus and so a law suit against Duke isn’t going to fly. these guys while some may come from upper middle even wealthy families, dont have their own money yet, or if they did, mommy and daddy promptly took it out of their names, so there is none. This chick is reasonably intelligent, she is 27 and in college, divorced and I heard one report that she had been in the navy too, so let us concede she is probably not a complete idiot. If all the allegations are false how does she expect to get away with it. Did she send someone back to the house to plant the fingernails ID wallet and other stuff……probably not. Did she hide the stuff under the bath mat, so none of the poor boys would see it? Come on!!! What is the scenario for the set up. You think she will get a book deal, hell no! When is the last time you saw a lucrative book deal and or T.V. movie invovling black folks, unless it is scadelous like the Barry Bonds book or something….If she did make it up there is absolutely no benefit for her, because after a few weeks noone will care. She ain’t Natalee Holloway or the runaway bride so noone will be talking about her next year! Beside if the allegations are false they will throw her black butt in jail so fast for false charges and throw her kids in foster care, unlike the runaway bride who only had to cut the grass a few times for community services, got a half million dollar book deal and great interviews on dateline.
Cry me a river lady. Those boys may very well be guilty. But guess what? You aren’t the judge. Neither am I. Why don’t you wait and see what the court says? Or perhaps the DNA reports. If they are guilty I’d be among the first to say hard time for the lot of them. And lots of it. Bringing up the Bonds and Holloway events are cheap shots. If you’re going to do that you may as well toss in Cynthia McKinney too. BTW, if you don’t think there will be a book deal in it, think again. A single incident has increased tensions in an entire state. There will be a book.
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Daran says:
My words are quite substantiated by the many heterosexual men out there who have not experienced male on female rape personally, yet feel the mighty urge to try to define rape for women and to define for women how they should deal with rape. In that very real sense, rape *is* theoretical. My post was not an ad-hom; and if you think my words were offensvie, then maybe you need to reconsider your avid participation in threads concerning rape and your inability to keep your ego off of your sleeve. If you want to support dense, theoretical musings about rape, then I think you need to be prepared for all criticism — even those, like mine above, which weren’t even directed at you.
Your ability to repeatedly side track discourses about rape into a treatise on how women should treat Daran is mind boggling. Certainly one might say that they boarder on morbid fascination.
Wait a second here…
on second thought Daran — you claim I made an ad hom, yet you didn’t join this thread until days after my comment. I would say your actions and your postings are the true ad hom. All you ever do is derail threads about rape. This, no longer, is speculation, but truth.
Q Grrl:
No. Crys made the ad hom. I did not say that you made an ad hom.
If that’s what I’m doing, then how come I haven’t touched any of the Louise Nicholas threads? They’re also about rape. (At least I assume they are. I’m not reading them.) So why aren’t I in there disrupting them?
Fact is, I’ve been following the Duke case since it broke. The discussion has been spread over several threads, and I’ve commented as I and when I felt appropriate, without keeping track specifically in which thread I’ve said what.
Daran, if you thought my post was about you in any way, all I can say is you’re wrong: as far as I can recall, I wasn’t even aware of your existence at the time of writing. In fact, it was a general comment, not directed to or in any way about any one specific person.
Amp thinks it was unfortunate. *shrug* I think that being raped and being subjected to rape culture 24/7 is far more unfortunate. Yeah, yeah, your blog, your rules. Whatever. But no way in hell am I going to apologise for getting fed up with the constant hate directed at all women.
As for it being “ad hom” or whatever crap: BULLSHIT. Everyone who knows that stats knows that incredible numbers of women get raped. Anyone who knows the theory knows that the culture at large has a way of entitling men to get away with rape by defining nonconsensual sex as “not-rape”. Nearly every woman I know has had experiences that could be classed as rape. And, guess what? Not one of their rapists has ever had to own up to it, much less pay for what he’s done.
Many, many men have got away with/are currently getting away with repeatedly raping women. And they’re not “psychopaths” or “monsters” or in any other way apart from “normal” society–they ARE normal society. And yes, many of them are rape apologists and rape deniers. I have personal experience of seeing men I know to be rapists behave this way.
None of this should surprise anyone. When a man starts bleating rape denial/apologia, the first thought that I have is that he’s obviously got a stake in keeping rape culture alive and well. Whether that makes him an actual rapist himself or someone who just gets off on the terror and anguish that rape culture inflicts on ALL women, I don’t claim to know in each specific case. But to assume that out of all the men current bleating on in this fashion, not one single one is himself a rapist is beyond ridiculous. OF COURSE some of them are.
Yeah, yeah: and a lot of guys who rape aren’t posting the same type of stuff. And you can’t say specifically that any old rape apologist is in fact himself a rapist (which, I point out AGAIN, I never once did). It doesn’t change what a lot of people realise is the truth.
My comments about the runaway bride and Natalee were in response to someone bringing up Twanda Brawly. There are always comparisons. Unfortunately not many cases are looked at individually. That is just the way it is. Cynthia Mckinney has nothing to do with rape or any type of real attack. I think she did over-rect. show the guy some ID, hell it wasn’ the first time some one didn’t recognize her and it won’t be the last. Bringing that into this discussion makes no since, but then again. All of them must be the same, right, Marteen. Nope I am not judge nor jury, but like you I am entitled to my opinion, everyone has one, you certainly do and a strong one at that. Just like Rush calling them a “hoes” who got what they deserved. Or as I listened to FOX news a nice church going lady said any woman who dances in front of a bunch of guys deserves to get raped, even the news anchor had to ask her to repeat because she couldn’t believe what was said. And guess what, the nice church going lady repeated it a second time. I love self-righteous, it really is kind of funny sometimes. God probably looks at all of us and just shakes his head sometimes. In the future Marteen, read all the post then you might undersatand the relevance. Cynthis McKinny..wow that was a great one! I am not crying either honey, but this is enough to make anyone sob.
Crys T:
Yep. Between the perpetual “kindly, civilized” regulars who just can’t bring themselves to ever believe that rape actually happens to women all over the world, all the time– and the sort of stuff that’s been going down on Ginmar’s blog this week, I can honestly say that I’ve learned a truly invaluable lesson. If I meet up with a rapist, I’ll try like blazes to get out of it– whatever it takes. However, the last thing on Earth I’ll waste time, money, and energy doing is trying to press charges against him. Juries will be by and large composed of all these “kindly, civilized” men that just want the status quo to stay as it is. I won’t stand a chance.
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I realize race will ultimately become the biggest issue here. I don’t believe it should be. I think a lot of people need to become aware of how often women in general are physically and mentally abused by men. Athletes seem to just be allowed to do anything they like without repercussions. Or they get a slap on the wrist. Probation helps everything right? I pray that the woman assaulted will not look with hatred on the rest of the white race because I am sure that women of all races have there hearts going out to the victim. I hope that she heals mentally and physically well. Also would like her to know that a nation of women are behind her to stop the violence against us.
Pittsburgh, PA
Chaka is certainly making it a race issue which was the basis for my adding dear(but miraculously overnight rehabilitated) Cynthia into the discussion. FYI Chaka, hitting a cop isn’t “over reacting”. It’s assault.
This was a dancer that may or may not have been raped by a group of jocks. Whether she’s white, black, indian, or hispanic should have no bearing on the case. She is either telling the truth or she isn’t. I read all of your post and saw…no relevance. No new insight.
Here’s one to chew on. Who in their right mind would allow themselves to be called racial slurs by a bunch of young jocks(probably drunk young jocks), then be told on their way out the door “thank your grandfather for my cotton shirt”, and then willingly re-enter the house? Certainly isn’t an excuse by any stretch, but it is puzzling.
When the DNA test comes back negative, I hope these guys sue the university for cancelling the lacrosse season. There is no evidence here other than the DA being “pretty confident” a rape occured. This guy seems to be caught up in the racial hysteria, which discredits him in my mind. Hmmm.. the DNA was back from the lab five days ago, wonder why they are stalling? Why was that e-mail released to the public? It’s absolutely meaningless and does not make them look guilty of anything.
A struggling student and single mother who needs the money to get her and her family through the week.
http://www.wral.com/news/8513890/detail.html
Looks like our “victim” has run afoul of the law herself…
“Looks like our “victim” has run afoul of the law herself…”
Yea, I also heard that police made frequent visits to the house where the victim as raped. I also saw that 15 of the lacrosse team members have been arrested before – mostly minor stuff, like drinking. So both sides had run-ins with the police, what’s your point?
Also, Is it me or is everyone disregarding that morbid email that was just discovered. That kid was ready to party like Jeffrey Dahmer style.
The point is, her criminal record indicates she has a history of using her position as an exotic dancer to defraud and outrightly steal from customers. The near vehicular manslaughter on a sheriff’s deputy while driving at 2X the legal limit doesn’t bode to well either, does it? This house of cards, like %90 of rape allegations in the western world, is about to topple.
“Also, Is it me or is everyone disregarding that morbid email that was just discovered. That kid was ready to party like Jeffrey Dahmer style. ”
The e-mail is completely irrelevant, and will more than likely be deployed to exonerate the accused. Those are the types of e-mails people write when a stripper has just charged them $800 for a three minute lap dance. The stripper hid behind female privlidge to rob them in what is a legitimate business transaction. Since arguing with women is considered hate speech in this country, what other outlet would he have?
neocon, show me the contractual right the lacrosse players have to complete the season. The university funds the coach, the upkeep of the field, the equipment, and certainly, the scholarships. The team is there for the university, not vice versa. Whether or not the players are guilty of rape, their sociopathic conduct finally became too public for the university to quietly brush aside. Having gotten away with so much in the past I am sure they are confused but there you have it.
Some blog commenters are indistinguishable from parodies, except that this isn’t a laughing matter…
Hey, I clicked on the link. Funny stuff. How’s that boycott of western women going? I guess if there’s no action you might as well claim responsibility.
This is a pretty nicely organized, blog, kudos to the blogger. Ok, back to bidness. I do not believe a rape occured here, and some of my original theories about what actually happened look like they may be spot on. All I”m waiting for now is for someone to say, “well, either you are a rapist, or you are a potential one. You’ve probably raped many times, and you justify it in your mind somehow.” The reason I want someone to say that is because I collect bogus “rapist” accusations against me in a Word document, I need three more to get 100. Almost all of them use the exact same language, its uncanny how intellectually bankrupt western feminism is. It reminds me of that SNL skit, “I loved it, It was better than Cats”….you know, about theatre production, with everyone repeating the exact same phrase……lol….gotta get some sleep. a bientot.
neocon, show me the contractual right the lacrosse players have to complete the season.
good point, forgot it was just a college. Duke is such a powerhouse I get confused. Their NCAA mens team of the early 1990’s was one of the best ever. They must be rabid about sports down there. I’ve only been to Ft. Bragg, which is in Fayetteville, never to Durham. Fayetteville is among the scummiest towns I’ve ever seen.
I would advise anyone people to click on neocon76’s name to visit the linked website before responding to him; it will be helpful, trust me.
Thanks!
However, I’m afraid that I’ll have to ask you not to post on this blog any longer. Best of luck to you.
Ok you’re right, I guess stealing a wallet wasn’t much of a challenge. So she decided to make a claim that she was raped, knowing of the severe consiquences- looseing her children, prison term, failing grade in microbiology.
Most men like Jim and neocon76 really just want to crawl into the fetal position and cry. neocon76 if you’re still reading this then you should go away for a second and give your mom a big hug-trust me you’ll like it.
I’m with Crys T.
Her post was accurate, and a legitimate response to Q Grrl’s post. It wasn’t an ad-hom, as it is wasn’t attempt to discredit the arguments of the various rape apologist/ rape denying MRA’s, it was an attempt to discuss them as a phenomenon.
Complaining about being maligned by accurate statements about a class of people to which you belong is pretty sad, particularly since it wasn’t even a generalized statement. Unlike Q Grrl’s statement that MRA’s view rape as theoretical, to which “No I don’t!” is a reasonable, if unproductive and obtuse, response, “No I don’t!” is a total irrelevancy in response to Crys T’s comment that more MRAs are rapists than admit to being rapists. It would likewise be an irrelevancy in response to Amps expansion of Crys T’s comment, in which he argued that MRAs probably are more likely to be rapists than the general population of men.
The funny thing is that I have this vague recollection of Daran distancing himself from MRAs in general by commenting that most of the MRA movement were pretty crazy. Given that, it seems strange that he’d take an accurate negative assessment of MRAs as a class so negatively.
But then, maybe I have him confused with some other MRA. I have to admit they all look pretty much the same to me.
And NOTA! this thread has been over-run by some seriously fucked up people! Is it an Ad-Hom or a description? I think it is a description, as I don’t think most of their insane disgorgements deserve even the engagement of an Ad-Hom.
Charles:
That’s another possibility, I suppose, but I don’t think it’s any better. I’m sure that if an MRA was to suggest that some of the survivors who “show up on rape threads” had “more first-hand experience” of making false accusations “than would ever admit it”, then that MRA would rapidly be shown the door. I don’t think the excuse that he was ‘discussing the phenomenon’ would wash, do you?
The ‘class of people’ in which I happen to be regularly included by feminist posters here, is “MRA’s [who] show up on rape threads”, by implication, those labelled as MRAs who have posted recently. If there is evidence that any of these people are rapists, then let’s see it.
That was not what Crys T said. She was not talking about MRAs in general, but about “MRAs [who] show up on rape threads”.
That probably was me. I’ve said things like that on several occasions, and I can’t think of anyone else who might be confused with me.
It’s accuracy about that class is speculative and it wasn’t applied to that class anyway.
Not to me.
Neocon76 is a nasty rape-denier, whom I just just getting ready to kick into touch when Amp banned him. I understand that it’s not appropriate to criticise banned posters, so you’ll never get to see what I would have said. (I would have deconstructed his arguments, not abused him personally.)
Mr Minnesota is religious nut-job who was left without a shred of credibility after he cited a truly risible site. He may be educatable, but honestly, that would be such a huge job that I’m not prepared to even attempt it. His best hope would be to go away, and come back under a different name.
Jim needs to pay more attention to detail, and generally to raise his game. Giving him the benefit of all doubt, I’d say he was worth going the extra mile with.
Me? I’m an equal opportunity bigotry-basher. You don’t see bashing the idiot MRAs much here, because Amp usually bans them before I get the chance. Check out some of my crossposts to soc.men on usenet to get a quite different picture of me.
what is NOTA? I’m sure it will be obvious when you tell me.
I don’t think even seriously fucked-up people should be called rapists or similar, unless that’s what they are, and I’ll defend them from an unsubstantiated charge even as I condemn their fucked-up views. (Excuse the typo in that post: ‘detestation’ was supposed to be ‘devastation’.)
Correction: His best hope would be to go away and get an industrial-strengh clue.
Which will make no sense while the post it’s ‘correcting’ is stuck in the moderation queue…
Here’s one to chew on. Who in their right mind would allow themselves to be called racial slurs by a bunch of young jocks(probably drunk young jocks), then be told on their way out the door “thank your grandfather for my cotton shirt”, and then willingly re-enter the house?
A struggling student and single mother who needs the money to get her and her family through the week.
She is a 27 year old college student, not a non-skilled welfare recipient. I would find another way to survive(yes, there are some), before I would allow myself to be denegrated by a bunch of punks. I would also have my children foremost in my mind when someone tried to cajole me into re-entering that hostile environment.
Your justification for her doing so Ampersand is absolutely ludcrous.
As I have said so more than once, stupidity isn’t a crime. All those people who buy land in Florida are still being defrauded by criminals, even if they really should have known better. Pointing a finger at someone because she was naive or even opportunistic is just another only slightly less reprehensible way of blaming the victim. Let’s turn the tables a bit: What’s wrong with you that you are you so willing to make excuses for such abominable behavior?
Yes, marteen. Of course you’re right. It’s her fault for choosing to be a stripper and choosing to return to the house. It’s her fault that she got raped.
If you go away now, I promise that you won’t be missed.
People with an intense need to believe that the world is just and fair tend to allow a lot of injustice and unfairness to occur.
Agreed. Marteen, you’re no longer welcome to post on “Alas.”
This story just proves that we have not progressed very far in race relations.
The media would have been relentless in its coverage of this incident if it had been a football team with black athletes and a white stipper. Remember kobe?
In no way am i suggestiong that it would not have been equally wrong. i am just stating that the media would have made it the main event.
hiring a black lawyer was a very cleaver tactic. it just proves that a soul can still be bougth for a price. (30 pieces!)
Boy, it sure is easy to judge someone who’s not you, not in your shoes, nad who has a considerably more difficult life, isn’t it?
Race in a rape case just makes it clear that men regard women as property. When a rape crosses racial lines, men get outraged that some other group of men molested ‘their’ women, and the rapists get outraged that these ‘people of no account’ dare to htink they’re human.
Daran:
None Of The Above. It’s an atheist’s or agnostic’s substitution in such phrases as “Oh, God,” “I swear to God,” and so forth…
OK, Let´s blame the alleged victim
The alleged victim went to what she thought was a bachelor party of around 6 men
The ladies were surprised to see 40 or so guys there
The ladies got scared when the guys started to get aggressive in tone and suggestion
The ladies left the building
The ladies were talked into returning to the party
The ladies were separated as soon as they walked into the house the second time
The accuser according to what the lacrosse drunks said, went into the toilet ALONE
The lady breaks off her own nails, rapes herself, chocks herself, kicks her own ass
The lady leaves all her belongings in the bathroom…including her cell phone, money ect.
The lady leaves in a hurry being sped away in a car according to a witness
The lady gets a ride to Krogers a few miles away, gets someone to call 911
Boy she really set those innocent drunk, rude, racist lacrosse players up.
What’s wrong with this picture?
Have you been following this story? This is a culture of entitlment. Maybe some of them are spoiled rich kids but i think it is the pedistal we put our All American Jocks, black, white, poor, rich? Not all, but i bet 10% of these boy’s have abuse issues. My parent always said you are who you hang with, so choose your friends correctly. One of the duke players last fall was arrested in Georgetown(dc) w/ a fellow georgetown lax player for attacking a young boy on the street. Something to do with the man being a homesexual (what he wasn’t man enough for him to be walking on the same street as you?), the young man was sent to the hospital for his injuries. I don’t think it is this sport (lax) specifically it is all sport and the super star mentality. We have (parent, teachers, schools, coaches) have brough these children up in a culture of entitledment. Extra power when they are too young and immature to handle it.
Boy’s well be boy’s. That phrase discust me. I am a white upper class women whom was sexually assalted when i was young. IT HAPPENS TO US ALSO. I hope this stays an abuse problem/rape/assualt? This does happen to white co-eds also and schools turn their heads.
I read an article from a sports writter that made a statement to all the men out there. “Lets keep loving sports guys. But It is time to get smart, watch the games. Cheer (or boo) the players, But leave the women Alone”. Women are not prizes and are not to be taken. We are not awards for a good job or getting on the cover of some lacrosse magazine.
The INTERNET will change how these players will do things. Watch out we are all paying attention. How humilliating for these parent to see and know that photo’s of their druken frat boys are all over the net. Maybe now we will pay attention to what we are Letting are children do. That goes for coaches, NBA, NFL, NHL? Maybe it is time we look at what we as a society are admiring!!!!
I have a very young son, we have been involved with athletics only a couple of years. You should see the parents on the side lines. Their son’s are the trophies at a very young age. I have a nice life and can afford nice things, i hope my son goes to a univesity like Duke some day. I came from lower middle class home and a large family. My only child gets soooooo much more then i ever get and is a private school boy. He is aware everyday and is greatful. I make sure of that. It does however scare me to see the seroiusness of the parent regaurding the “Super Star” mentality of these children. It starts very young and these boys are to immature to handle it. They have become our prizes, like our houses and suv’s for our job well done. IT SEEMS TO ME WE ARE DOING A HORRIBLE JOB. The super stars are getting carried away. They are abusive bully’s. Not ALL OF THEM, but you are who you hang with. It does show what your charater as a human being is! I would bet there are some very nice boys on that team it a shame no one was repremanding the bad ones for there past distructive/abusive behavior. If they did they wouldn’t be in the HELL there life will be for some time.
I just hope this is a wake up call! I am only sorry that i THINK it was at another womens expence. All the signs of abusive mentality are there. Sorry the last e-mail #42. What the hell was that, I don’t care if was a joke. Who, what kind of person jokes like that? o
This kind of tragedy was bound to happen (or finally get discovered)
http://www.thesmokinggun.com/archive/0405061duke1.html?link=eaf
http://www.slate.com/id/2139536/
Mr from MN may have shot himself in the foot by providing the link for his statistics. Check out this page on the same site about Feminism–which is here referred to as “An Abomination Before God”. If Mr from MN is using this site for his statistics, he might want to reevaluate the strength of any argument he might try to make.
http://christianparty.net/feminism.htm
Race was the frosting on the cake.Power and control over women is what rape is about.Untill we stand strong and make changes it will continue.Both women and children are treated as less important.We are in 2006 and men with money or in sports (which is more important to men than some silly woman) get away with rape.The woman is further tortured by highly paid lawyers dragging them through the mud.Apparently its okay to rape imperfect women.I fear that I would have to not report if I were raped because I am 3 times divorced,have been on medicine for depression for 11 years,was “easy” for several years after high school etc…When we stand up they put us down.I have 3 children to care for and to protect.Susan B. Anthony,Elizabeth Cady-Stanton,and other women stood up for women when we had no rights.They fought thier whole lives and we have benefitted from thier struggle.We need some more brave,strong women to fight to change things for the better or in 50 or 100 years from now our daughters will be dealing with this same injustice!God forbid !
How would that be different from the way this thing has actually been covered?
For all you know at this point, she might NOT have been raped. If she made a false accusation, THAT sure as Hell IS her fault.
Came upon this site by chance…just had to have my say.
Unfortunately, the notion that the rape was deserved because the woman was a stripper is also, quite often, taken to other extremes. A woman deserves it if she’s out walking at night, if she’s wearing certain clothes, if she’s in the wrong place at the wrong time without a guardian, etc. Meaning, if a woman does anything but hide in her home afraid to go out, she deserves rape. What miserable lives. This is just simply another excuse to blame women for the out of control, violent actions of males. If males can be so tempted to act out, and have so little control to avoid their physical need to overpower and dominate, that says a whole lot about the nature of men. They have no control. They live for dominance and power and care nothing of the effects that their actions have on others. They should not, at any time, be allowed in positions of power. As far as I’m concerned, they don’t even deserve human rights. If they want to act like animals, they should be caged like animals.
i just want to remind all writers of the established american rule with regard to the placement of commas and periods in relationship to quotation marks: commas and periods should be placed inside of quotation marks.
correct example: “Diane,” she said, “put the book down and go outside for a little while.”
incorrect example: That was not what Crys T said. She was not talking about MRAs in general, but about “MRAs [who] show up on rape threads”.
thanks
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… commas and periods should be placed inside of quotation marks.
Almost, but not quite, I think. I believe that the rule is: punctuation mark then quotation mark. You even did it in your example:
“Diane,” she said, “put the book down and go outside for a little while.”
See? Quotation mark, words, comma, quotation mark. Followed by non-quote words then comma, quotation mark, words, period, quotation mark. It’s actually a little more complex than that, but it’s a good starting point. This may very well be my favorite rule of grammar.
wumhenry wrote:
Well, there you are. I guess that it’s okay to beat up strippers and insult them with racial epithets. Why, those princes of civility. Isn’t it wonderful that there’s a slight possibility that all they did was insult and assault her. Truly, we are blessed to have such men as our future leaders.
Hey, that makes perfect sense, if you’re a heartless asshole.
I am really afraid. There never will be a good resolution to this. And that will be bad for everyone.
Let me say up front that when I first heard about this case, I believed the woman was probably telling truth or close to it, even though she was a stripper, and the “boys” were probably lying at least somewhat to try to save their asses.
But I took it for what it was, a snap judgment and first impression, nothing more. I’m forced to agree with Jim that anyone deciding to believe one side or the other 100% before anyone hears at least a good deal of the evidence is stupid.
I’m so glad to have stumbled across this blog a few days before this happened because I want to follow and keep up with this story without the sensational and titillating and just all around bad coverage of the news shows and the papers. You guys (and gals) are pretty fucking good at this and ABC News could probably learn a thing or two from you. (That’s usually where I get my headlines first. I never thought I’d come to rely more on a blog.)
And I agree that any one who equates following the story and commenting on it and forming an opinion on it with a “witch hunt” is also an idiot. No one has been physically harmed or detained by Suzy Q. Public’s harsh word choice. Pleez.
But, in subsequent days I have been forced to rethink my initial decision. I was still on the women’s side when I heard the boys were not talking and the racist email, in my opinion, clearly pointed to premeditation. The first accounts of the 911 calls also seemed to back up the woman’s side. The lack of DNA evidence threw me a bit and I began to lean toward the boys until I heard someone mention they could have used condoms…I’d considered that but I thought their would still be some DNA evidence if what she said happened, happened. I was however, convinced to stay in her camp when I read (in this blog I think?) that her Dad saw her and clearly she was beaten by someone.
Until I heard more about the 911 calls. If it was the other women/stripper? who called from the store parking lot? Why didn’t she mention that the victim was beaten? Wouldn’t that have been more important that saying she was just drunk?? And if it was actually a police officer who made the second call, surely he would have mentioned something about the women looking like she was beaten up, especially if she really was looking as bad as her father said. I began to be a little skeptical that a stripper who was smart enough to be a college student and caring enough to be a mother was also stupid enough to get drunk at a gig like that. (For the record, I do of course, realize that stupid doesn’t mean she was asking for it, neither does stripping nor drunk. I would have thought that Jodie Foster movie cleared that up for everyone under 50. Even sluty, drunk, stupid, reckless, irresponsible idiots don’t DESERVE it. No one asks to be raped. And anyone, ANYONE even very, very privileged, rich, well-thought of white boys should sit in jail for a long, long time, if not forever, for doing it even once!!)
And so I will continue to watch and I will hope to get enough information from some relatively reliable source to form at least a reasonable opinion of who was more likely to be telling the truth.
But like I said at the beginning, I’m afraid I won’t.
So sorta like the O.J. case we will forever have large parts of the population believing one side over the other and no clear resolution from the courts and our legal system (it’s not a justice system…which is precisely the problem) about who was more likely to be right and who was more likely to be wrong. And every aspect of this whole incident will just add to continued divisiveness over race and sex and class in this country rather than be an example of truth and justice that we can start to come to some common ground and understanding of one another.
–Jane at http://cupofjane.livejournal.com/ or email me at acupofjane (at) gmail (dot) com
P.S. the lesson I think we should have learned from the O.J. case is that at least some small part of racism has been vanquished because now even a black man, provided he has some sort of macho status like being an athlete and enough money and privilege, even he can buy his way out of guilty verdict, just like any of the wealthy, privileged white men who’ve been doing forever. I’m not sure why I’m glad for that, but I am.
Jane –
The second 911 call (the one from the story parking lot) was made by a store security guard. This isn’t speculation; it’s known, he’s spoken to the police and the press about it. As for why he didn’t say she was beat up, who knows? It was late at night and he was peering at her through a car window in goodness knows what kind of lighting; maybe he just didn’t get a clear look at her.
As for the DNA evidence, I’ve already written a pretty extensive post about that. In a nutshell: some experts say that it’s very unlikely that no DNA could be left, but others say that it’s quite possible. None are willing to say that lack of DNA proves that no rape happened, although how strongly they say that varies.
And I agree with you that “I don’t know exactly what happened” is a reasonable opinion to have. And that it’s quite possible that we’ll never know for certain.
mobius32:
It is also an established rule to begin sentences with a capital letter, and to capitalise the word “I” and proper nouns such as “American”. However, if you wish to depart from these conventions I have no objection.
With respect to quoting, I’m not ignorant of the rules. However, I am British, and prefer to use the logical quoting style, which is prevailant here. I also use British spelling.
If you read the account from the taxi cab driver who has no bones to pick either way….he isn’t sure if the one accused did anything, BUT!!! He later came back and saw a girl arguing on the Lawn with maybe 6 guys..saying”I am calling the police!” Then 4 of the guys get in his Taxi and one looks injured and one guy says, “She is just a stripper who is going to believe her!” Also the fact the gilr left a show and her money!! What person leaves a show and money and says the are calling the cops?!! Something definetly went on!! The second time the Taxi cab driver went out there isn’t really being high lighted just the first time…making the Duke boys look a lot better….read the whole article…
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,192404,00.html
Mostafa confirmed to some media outlets that he picked up Seligmann and another passenger at 12:19 a.m., took them to a bank and a drive-through hamburger stand, then dropped them off at a Duke dormitory.
“They were just joking and laughing inside my car and everything just fine,” Mostafa said in an interview Thursday on ABC’s “Good Morning America.”
Mostafa told MSNBC that he returned to the house later to pick up another customer. He told FOX News that when he arrived at the house the second time, some players were on the front lawn and a light-skinned black woman was walking away from the house. She was arguing with the players, then Mostafa said the woman said, “I am going to call the police.”
Four of the lacrosse players then got into the cab; Mostafa described them as agitated. He then heard one player say to another, “don’t worry, she’s just a stripper.” He also said, “it look to me like somebody get hurt. But what kind of harm … I have no idea.”
I am not sure which party is guilty. The Lacrosse team members with the bad reputations from past activity; members of the black community who take every opportunity to take advantage of poor white-black realtions; the notroiously suspect black leadership in Durham at all levels; a white prosecutor out to make a name for himself while running for office in the next two weeks; the news media which will chrage up any situation – making the news, creating mischief and enflaming while not “just” reporting; or the rest of us who have to listen to this. Let the legal system function and let’s all stop this retoric. I wish some judge could put a injuction on all of this banter; allowing only reporting events during the the trial itself.
Heres a likely scenario on the whole case,,,the 2 dancers come over and perform,,for whatever reason many of the guys are LESS then please with the performance. They tell them to get @#$% out and EVEM use the N word and other expletives. Now you have 2 dancers, feeling quite spurned. The one calls 911 and says she was walking by with her friend and they were called racial slurs. Obviously she was trying to get back at the guys and she did what she could to do so. WHY ELSE WOULD SHE CALL AND SAY WHAT SHE DID. No one has given me a more plausible explanation. The alleged victim now completely drunk and disoriented states at the hospital, where she was taken due to her intoxication, has suddenly be raped. Possible yes, likely no. Extremely unlikely she could have been attacked, beat up and raped and her partner heard nothing and saw nothing. Not much of a case here at all. Just a DA up for re-election in a majority black city playing politics with peoples lives.
” I began to be a little skeptical that a stripper who was smart enough to be a college student and caring enough to be a mother was also stupid enough to get drunk at a gig like that.”
The second dancer went on air last week before revealing her identity and stated that, having never met the first stripper before the gig that night, she still noticed a marked difference between when the first stripper arrived and when they left together — she believes that the first stripper was drugged.
Similarly, this is what she had to say in today’s news (from wral.com):
Of note: In Durham, both the Food Lion and the Harris Teeter stores hire off-duty Durham Police officers for thier security guards (and maybe on-duty too, as they are usually in uniform). I would be surprised if Kroger does differently, but I don’t shop there often enough to remember. In talking to a neighbor last night, we were wondering if key information is being left out precisely because the security guard is also on the police force.
See how one sided this is??!! No one is dealing with the Taxi cab driver who has no bones to pick saying what he saw!! WHY are you guys so quick to say the Dukes guys are innocent??!! They say nothing happened yet the taxi cab driver saw a argument and a hurt person and he said “Who is going to listen to a dancer!” She also left here money and sell phone??!! If the race was flipped would you guys be so quick to say nothing happened??!! Heck NO!! You guys would at least listen to the WHOLE taxi driver story and wait…..I don’t know what happened but there is evidence on both sides and the TAXI CAB driver is the smoking gun and what he said was critical but all you guys are ignoring that!! WHy??!!
Read what the Taxi guy says!! Also what about the trained Doctors who said she had classic rape bruising??
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,192404,00.html
please read what she is going through..remember there are two sides to this story..lets wait and hear the conclusion of the whole matter with a FAIR EYE AND EAR..
http://www.essence.com/essence/lifestyle/takeastand/0,16109,1186512,00.html
Reading all the many stories and editorials about the alleged rape of an exotic dancer, college student and mother of two by Duke University lacrosse players, I was compelled to write and share with your readers the story of the Martinsville Seven.
In 1949, in Martinsville, Va., seven black men were accused of raping a 32-year-old married, white woman. Within 30 hours of the alleged rape, all had signed written confessions. Within 11 days, all seven were tried, convicted and sentenced to death by all-white juries. Two were tried during the same trial. The youngest was only 17 and the rest, except for one, were all in their early 20s. The oldest was a 37-year-old man with a wife and five beautiful children.
Although no white man in Virginia had ever been executed for rape, the Supreme Court refused to hear the case and President Harry Truman refused to grant clemency. All seven were executed by 1951.
This case was instrumental in helping change the rape laws of this great country. Around the world, they became known as the Martinsville Seven.
No matter what, if some of these Duke athletes are indeed guilty of rape, they will never face the death penalty, thanks to the Martinsville Seven. By the way, three of the Seven were Hairstons, relatives of mine and I was born and raised in Martinsville,Va. And for the record, the true story of the Seven has never been told.
Thanks for listening and may God bless and protect our children and soldiers everywhere.
I am really disheartened by chronology of posts I have read over the past fifteen minutes. Every once in awhile an inkling of common sense but the posts are predominated by emotionally charged speculatiton. The feminist views (most of which I agree with) inundating this dsicussion are mostly irrelevant to the question of rape. It seems that some posts concede that the question of rape can be reduced to “he said, she said” and that “she said” must be right for generalizations “x, y and z” which are either convictions against men in general or wild speculation about the meaning of certain items of “evidence” that have been made public.
I was not at the party. I do not know what happened. I do know that the volume of seemingly factual items that have been unearthed (taxi driver testimony, time line, previous allegations of rape that resulted in apparently not even an investigation (not to mention the father’s statements that “those boys did nothing to her”), the initial statements by second dancer that she doubted the accuser’s story before realizing she could spin the story for monetary gain, the absence of DNA, the corroborating statements of 40 other witnesses at the party (why posters here have questioned their “mumness” is baffling to me… they have cooperated with the investigation, all have attorneys, and all are wise to stay out of the public eye), the apparent intoxication of the accuser, the failure to mention anything about a rape for 31 hours, and the extensive history…….. unless you are truly blind, at least raises a doubt as to the accuser’s claims. In a criminal trial, reasonable doubt has been established thrice over (this does not mean that much of the above cited evidence is not capable of cutting the other way… though in my opinion those theories are less plausible and just make for good media play)… you simply cannot send two 20 year old kids to jail for several years with all that has come to light.
The ACLU once said that bad cases make for good law, meaning that some of its most important gains in legal arena as a defender of civil liberties have resulted from cases bearing only the most frivolous legal claims (and factually dubious as well). But I fail to see the parallel here for victim’s rights activists, for the cause of gender equality, or for anything for that matter.
This crap is just another legal matter juiced for all its worth by special interest groups and the media… a weak legal case where the truth will likely never be known, and only the wounds caused by the racial and feminist undertones will fester at the end.
This case is just really making me sad and I hope no one takes offense to my comments. I repeat that I was not there and do not know what happened. Mine is just one more opinion, hopefully viewed as emotionally charged only insofar as it is painful to me to see others’ views so swamped by gender, race and “financial privilege” issues.
What is revictimization or multiple victimization?
The risk of sexual revictimization, according to the CDC, is based on vulnerability factors. One of these is the pre-existance of PTSD from a previous assault. Being the victim of child sexual abuse doubles the likelihood of adult sexual victimization (Parillo et. al., 2003) (Sarkar, N.; Sarkar, R., 2005). PTSD levels are actually higher in those who have been previously victimized than in survivors of only one assault (Follette et. al., 1996). PTSD could give the victim the appearance of vulnerability in dangerous situations and effect the ability of the victim to defend themselves.
One study found that of the 433 sexually assaulted respondents, two-thirds reported more than one incident (Sorenson et. al., 1991). Two further studies also found that women who were victimized more than once or in both childhood and adolescence had a higher risk for adult revictimization and more PTSD (Siegel & Williams, 2001), (Breslau et. al., 1999). Intervention such as counseling for mental health issues (like PTSD) and for possible addictions related to the abuse can help women with child sexual abuse histories overcome some of the abuse-related sequelae that make them vulnerable to adult revictimization (Parillo et. al., 2003). Other factors influencing recovery are emotional support from friends, relations, social and community supports (Sarkar, N.; Sarkar, R., 2005).
Problems experienced by retraumatized women were that they were more likely to be alexithymic, show dissociation scores indicating risk for dissociative disorders, and to have attempted suicide compared to the other groups (Cloitre et. al., 1997).
http://www.ibiblio.org/rcip/mvrv.html
I think that the rape was wrong. It doesn’t matter what we look like on the outside, or our race.
I think that our parents taught us better than this, rapes, murders, sexually abusing children? What’s wrong with those people? They have no reason to hurt other people, no matter what or who they are. I know for a fact, that if I were raped that I would be afriad of men and afraid to tell or have sex. I would much sooner die. I also know somone that has committed suicide because of rape.And if anyone who has raped before that is reading this message right now, I hope that you consider these casualities.
I am concerned that the pendulum of “rights” has swung so far to the … what? … to the anti-male corner … that equal rights are no longer in sight.
Specifically, that the names and images of David Evans, Collin Finnerty and Reade Seligmann can be so casually bantered about in the press, while the name of accuser, [name deleted by Amp], is shielded by the press from the public sector.
It seems to me what’s good for the goose has to be good for gander, as well.
Steven, there’s a post on this blog addressing that exact issue, here.
Steven probably wouldn’t be allowed to post in that feminist only thread. Here’s a link to the Identical post on Creative Destruction.
Ampersand:
Sadly, I rest my case — vis-a-vis the swing of the pendulum (i.e. the absence of equality between women’s rights and men’s rights), of which in wrote in post #154.
IMHO, there can be no equal rights when the “rights” accorded to one “group” are different from those of another “group.” Your example of censoring “Duke Lacrosse Accuser” [deleted by Amp]’s name from my earlier post, without according the same priviledges to David Evans, Collin Finnerty and Reade Seligmann, to me is clear evidence that the dynamcis of our cultural female/male paradigm are a long way from achieving balance.
I can understand how censoring my name may, on the one hand, give me solace and security against what I perceive might be public shame, if not outright potential danger to my person. On the other hand, such a “safe harbor” holds inherent what I believe is a signficant part of the substance that creates and enables (negatively) a continued paradigm of victimhood and fear.
In the meantime, I suggest that either “we” publish all names or no names.
Short of that, then we are effectively telling our young men and women that in this political culture, men are expendable and women are protected. And I don’t think that’s the message that anyone with wisdom really wishes to impart.
I can’t believe you just posted her name again. It’s awfully difficult to take you seriously if you walk into someone else’s forum, are instructed directly not to post something, and then do it anyway. In fact, I don’t take you seriously. You are emblematic of the reason why “men’s rights” are a joke.
Steven. Not your blog, not your call, and not only do you not understand the issues in play here, but you are utterly rude and disrespectful for re-posting the name of the Navy veteran who accused the members of the Duke Lacrosse team of rape against the expressed wishes of the author of this blog.
There is no message here that “women are protected”, but that rape accusers are protected, regardless of gender. The “victimhood and fear” you see is a direct result of a culture where, contrary to what you have stated, men who rape generally get away with it, and women who accuse men of rape have their names dragged through the mud. Women know that if they press rape charges, they are unlikely to get justice and extremely likely to be harassed and have their names defamed. Men know that if they rape they are likely to walk away to do it again another night.
And again. This is not your blog. You are no part of the “we” Amp was referring to.
Ah, but if you dig just a little deeper, there is another underlying cautionary tale for our young folk: be very careful about which young women you purchase for your sexual titillation.
Of course women are protected, they’re sexual commodities for men. And, if you’ll note correctly, it is other men who have bandied these names about — IOW, men are sending a message to other men: if you are going to purchase a woman, don’t be a stupid ass while doing so because other men still want access to the purchased woman and they don’t want damaged goods. Therefore, only stupid men are expendable, the smart ones are left to pillory the young, wealthy, privileged, and stupid.
Alas, I do not wish to offend or disrespect anyone.
I posted here because I found the other posters’ comments to be aptly cogent toward enriching a dialogue of sorts on the Duke Lacrosse subject that is notably absent in other blogs.
Perhaps I may have, indeed, missed the forest for the trees.
Unless invited, I will not post any further.
Thank you for your consideration and comments.
(I do appreciate them)
Steven
Steve, if I had the power to remove the accused rapists’ names from our public discourse, I would. (I’ve posted many times about the Duke rape case, but I don’t think I’ve once posted their names. I have more than once pointed out that they may be innocent, however).
But I don’t have the power to do anything about their names. I’m not conceited enough to think that once their names have been mentioned night after night on network and cable news, it matters whether or not their names are mentioned in the comments here on my blog. For anyone who isn’t totally blacking out the news (in which case, I doubt they read this blog), the names of the accused men are unavoidable.
The same thing isn’t true about Mary Doe’s true name. Although there are some exceptions, for the most part the only people who have read her name are people who have sought it out on the internet. Since not allowing her name on my site does do a tiny, marginal bit of good, I don’t allow her name on this site.
Alas, I do not wish to offend or disrespect anyone.
Then why are you stomping onto a feminist blog and bitching about poor men, as well as posting the name of a rape victim twice?
Rock, you’re posting links from Faux News. Try finding a real source. Oh, yeah, and multiple exclamation points do not add logic to your ‘points’, such as they may be.
Ginmar wrote in post #163:
Ginmar, thank you for your inviting questions.
I certainly don’t view my commentary and observations as “…stomping onto a feminist blog to bitch about poor men.” Rather, as I noted in #161:
As to my posting the rape accuser’s name twice — this is far less than the number of times that the alleged defendants’ names have been posted across all media. But that is another issue.
For my ethics, I do not believe equality should ever be compromised — at all. What is good for the goose must be as equal for the gander.
This goes to the posting of names – everyone’s names — accused and accuser alike.
Alternatively, we could opt to have no one’s real name posted … just a bunch of John and Mary Doe’s.
Certainly, the media would not like that. But then, who cares about the media, huh?
Steven, do you really think we haven’t seen that faux equality claim here, either? Bullshit. For starters, if the ganders in this case are so equal, how come they didn’t wind up getting penetrated? How come they have their previous criminal histories brushed aside as mere hijinks? How come no one is criticizing their morals for hiring a stripper? If you really were in favor of equality, you’d have to spend a lot of time fixing the inequities the victim in this case has suffered. You’ve displayed no interest in that whatsoever.
Treating unequals equally is the greatest inequity of all. It wasn’t even a case of gander versus goose, here; it was forty versus one.
Is that equality to you?
Furthermore, this stuff isn’t happening in some perfect society where men and women are equal. You act like it is, it’s not.
This is utter bullshit. I’m sorry, but I’m not dignifying this with something it doesn’t deserve. The victim has been the victim of a crime; the accusers are accused of a crime. Guys like you just love the idea that one set of rules fits all, even when those rules are deployed against a backdrop of sexism and misogyny you ignore.
The biggest privilege is ignoring the costs of that privilege to others. You couldn’t be a better example if you tried.
Indeed it should, but the hypothesis of the goose/gander maxim is that there is no pertinent difference between the parties that could justify different treatment. A black person who commits a crime should be given the same sentence as a white person who commits the same crime, all other things being equal, because the only difference between them – skin colour – isn’t pertinent.
That isn’t the case here. The three Lacrosse players are suspects charged with a crime. The complainant isn’t. The same principles, applied to a pertinently-different factual basis, may lead us to different conclusions. Or it may not, but even if not, we can’t demonstrate this with an equality argument.
Do you think that the complainant should have the right to remain silent? Or to be confronted with the defendent in court? Or to have legal representation? Perhaps she should have these rights, perhaps not, but if so it will be for essentially different reasons from why we give defendants these rights.
Another problem with equality arguments is that they don’t tell us what’s right. Should we suppress both sets of names, or publish them? Equality arguments can’t answer that question.
Finally equality arguments lead to injustice. It would be unjust to murder Steven. (I presume you do not dispute this). But many people have suffered that injustice. That’s not fair. Why should Steven live when other people have been murdered? We could remedy the inequality between Steven and murdered people by murdering Steven. Do you think we should do this?
Ginmar at #165 wrote:
You’re right. I am confused.
So, in what you have written:
Who is the victim?
Who are the accusers?
And: Are “unequals” only to be treated “unequally”? …to avoid “the greatest inquity”?
Thus far the facts in this case raise serious question as to the accuser’s credibility.
What I “hear” in your comments, Ginmar, is a position that because the accuser is a woman and the accuseds are men, you unquestionably accept her being the victim, and their being the criminals; moreover, that if I fail to accept this as gospel truth, then I clearly am the prototypical example of those who ignore sexism and misogyny.
I cannot and therefore will not presume who the victim(s) really are in this case.
For that reason alone, it is my belief that all parties’ identities would then best be kept on par — either full disclosure or no disclosure.
Daran in #164 states that:
…and for this reason the equitable “goose/gander maxim” should not apply.
I disagree.
I believe that there will be a greater tear in the fabric of the true quest for establishment of a cultural equality paradigm, if we fail to safeguard the rights of all people – regardless of what prejudices each of us carries (e.g. Ginmar’s “the woman is always the victim; the men are always the perps”; Steven’s “ignoring the costs of privilege to others”; or Daran’s “equality arguments leading to injustice”).
For me, it is the cultural paradigm that must be nurtured and carefully monitored. It is the subconscious of our world.
Obviously, what I defined as “rights” is a prejudged.
Hopefully, however, in dialogue can I explore the differences and, perhaps, be influenced to a different vision.
What judgments might you further?
Steven, when you sto p playing word games I’ll bother with you. Knock it off. Nothing like a poseur who l ikes to hear himself talk. Well, you might say excrement but I say shit. If this crap you’re posting is really news to you I’d suggest you get started reading the list of books at my blog. Until I see evidence that any of it has sunk in, you’re not worth my time.
Ginmar
You’re absolutely right ( I would say “excrement” )
Send me your blog address. I love to read.
Ginmar …”my dear”
Nevermind the requrest for a link.
I see your anger is well posted already.
Alas, as you note, that is so unacceptable…unlike men, who “can never be too angry, because their anger is righteous and just.”
Yikes!
Obviously, there’s no room for argumentative dialogue in your world.
More investigations are necessary and when we talk about rape, we have to talk about false rape allegations as well.
While rape is a crime, a false rape allegation is also a crime.
Should these ‘rapists’ be innocent, I hope this woman will face criminal charges and will be punished for filing this wrong police report.
False rape allegations are very frequently – a considerable number of accusations are turning out as a product of pure fantasy.
100s of men in the US were released from prison after found innocent. They spent decades in prison for crimes, which never took place.
Steven. There’s lots of room for argumentative dialogue in feminism in general and in Ginmar’s blog in particular. Gin has heard a certain large set of “arguments” before, has debunked them, and no longer listens to those who persist in pushing their agendas and thereby hijacking her journal. There is, however, no room for treating women like second class citizens with less human rights than men. There is no room for condescension from males for anger over long standing and daily oppressions. There is no room for railroading conversations to “why aren’t feminists worried about the men”? (men have all the systems they need to correct any imagined or real injustices they face. They don’t need feminism).
One of the most difficult concepts for people in the oppressing classes to accept in the field of -isms is the concept of privilege. Privilege is the idea that if a group of people is systematically denied opportunities and basic assumptions of humanity at the hands of a different group of people, the people doing the oppressing, whether or not they individually contribute to the oppressing factors their dominance in society has created, are the beneficiaries of unearned privilege.
Did you earn the 17% more than an equally competent and qualified woman in the same field typically earns? Did you earn the ability to go home from your forty hour a week job and sit down while your female partner, just home from her forty hour a week job, does almost twice as much housework and child care? Did you earn a culture in which if you get too drunk and crash on a friend’s couch and that friend violates your trust and rapes you, you are believed and people you tell are outraged, but if you were a woman you would be blamed for that “friend’s” rape of you because you were 1) drunk and 2) trusted the wrong person? Did you earn better deals at car dealerships? The (still) almost unimpeded ability to walk away from (especially) child care duty and financial responsibility of your offspring [only 1/3 of men who are court mandated to pay child support are typically current on their payments. A good quarter of men who are supposed to be paying child support are over $10,000 in arrears). Did you earn the ability to earn more in “historically male” jobs than women earn in jobs that require higher level skills and more education? {an interesting side note: as women enter a field, prevailing wages tend to decrease in proportion to the percentage of women in the field). Did you earn that your co-workers, clients, bosses, and customers rarely if ever respond first to your “fuckability” or lack thereof, and only then, if then, to your professional demeanor, skills, and competence? Did you earn the (almost universal) assumption that you’re telling the truth if you say she consented and she says she didn’t? Did you earn a word where “girl, pussy, sissy, bitch, cunt, and other words denoting femininity are insults, but even words like dick and asshole, while insulting, still carry a tone of strength? Did you earn a world where only the joy and pleasure of the male in heterosexual sex is imperative, and the woman only needs supply consent or acquiescence?
These are all examples of privilege. These are all things you experience that women in general do not. Are you saying that the (wealthy, white, upperclass) boys who hired a stripper to perform for them and then publicly and loudly insulted her and threatened and intimidated her are on a “level playing field” with a black, middle class (at best) single mother (and Navy veteran) who supports her children at a job that is humiliating and dangerous and socially stigmatizing, but pays better than nearly any other job available to her before she finishes her college degree? Are you saying that those accused of a violent crime should have more care taken with their reputations than the reputation of the victim? Are you aware that there have been so many death threats against Mary Doe that she and her children have been “couch surfing” afraid to go home to her parents since the crime happened? Are you aware of the stringent standards of a SANE forensic rape test in determining whether or not forceable sexual intercourse occurred, and setting it into a time frame?
There is a lot of righteous anger floating around in feminist circles. There is good reason for it.
I think she was suggesting you read the books, not the blog. The books might grant you a common ground for discussion.
I do love dipshits who read one sentence and then quote it out of context without considering the thoughts behind it. Then again, he’s an MRA. Why on earth hasn’t he whipped out, “You just hate me because I have a penis!” yet?
wow
dialogue
Wow, reading comprehension. Yohan, are you trying to act like a parody of an MRA, or what?
OK, so the white, male dominated press has only been reporting the privileged-white-boy slant. Has there been any other press offering something else?
Reporter CASH MICHAELS of The Wilmington Journal (part of the BlackPressUSA Network) wrote the following in his May 21, 2006 article entitled:
A NEWS ANALYSIS, HOW STRONG IS THE DUKE CASE EVIDENCE?
http://wilmingtonjournal.blackpressusa.com/news/Article/Article.asp?NewsID=69635&sID=4
This would definitely change the landscape in the Duke Lacrosse case. Indeed, it may be the only thing to substantiate the accuser’s claims.
MRA?
Men’s rights activist.
Gee, steven, I can’t tell how you how impressed I am by anonymous sources in a newspaper.
DUKE LACROSSE WOMEN TO WEAR “INOCENT” BANKS
MSNBC – USA
Duke University women’s lacrosse team members will wear sweatbands that read “innocent” in their game against Northwestern in the Final Four on Friday in …
URL: http://msnbc.msn.com/id/12953411/
Comments?
Epithets?
Traitors?
Realists?
FMRA’s?
He’s Missing The Whole Forest?
Oops!
not BANKS
And….this proves what, exactly?
Amp, can you ban this stupid fuck yet or what? He’s just wasting time now.
Ginmar … I have refrained from swearing at you or anyone else. I believe I have comported myself respectfully as well.
For you to call me a “stupid fuck” is certainly swearing and I believe anyone would agree that it is disrespectful.
I don’t believe anyone should be censored (this includes you as well as the names of the accuser and the accused alike).
However, based upon Amp’s Moderation Policy you have certainly gone beyond the spirit of this blog.
If you indeed wish to make a difference in this world — you’re going about it in a way that will certainly turn my eyes and hears off to you — and most likely those of the folks for whom a difference would truly be worthwhile.
Ginmar, Steven’s right about one thing – and only one thing. You’re not only treating Steven like shit when you say stuff like “ban this stupid fuck yet”; you’re treating me like shit, too, because you’re making it clear that you can’t be bothered to respect the moderation goals here.
Please try to respect the rules in the future. Don’t call other posters stupid fucks.
Steven, you seemed to have missed out on the most important part of the “Alas” moderation goals. Here it is again:
Ginmar and I have known each other online for years. She and I disagree on a lot – especially on the question of how to treat folks we disagree with – but I respect her. Ginmar falls into the “given slack” category, in other words.
You, on the other hand, are playing rules lawyer. I HATE it when comment-writers play rules lawyer. Not only is it poor behavior, but the very fact that you’re playing rules lawyer WHEN THE RULES SPECIFICALLY SAY NOT TO show that you don’t respect the rules you’re trying to use to put me in a corner.
It’s also very telling that when Odanu wrote you a very long, thoughtful reply, you pretty much ignored it, preferring to post articles from elsewhere and exchange silly insult posts. That kind of stuff moves the discussion here AWAY from what I’d like it to be. Admittedly, some of Ginmar’s posts move things in the wrong direction, too – but she also has posts moving things in the right direction, sometimes.
I’m banning you, Steven. If you want, you can email me in July and ask me to unban you, but until then you’re gone.
In the beginning of the case, I sided with the so-called victims. As time passes, I have less and less belief in their story. I was put in very similar situations at least twice, although I was never raped. I too was an exotic dancer I to worked or danced at private parties similar to the dancers at the Duke one. I also brought security with me as well as a partner. As time goes by, I have less faith in the girls. I, myself think that the acusers are looking for publicity as well as monies. I think that the Duke players are bieng fasley accused and the dancers should be proscesuted. I have sinced gone to college, massage school, am a certified Pharmacy Technicion through two agencies, and I will soon be starting Radiology School. I have excelled in every study, married ten years, have a soon to be 5 year, very well behaved daughter. I believe that I am well versed in this subjech. Mbelief is, that these players are being falsley accused and their reputations are being ruined!!!!