When White Kids Have Spontaneous Fun, Working Class People of Color Left to Clean Up Their Shit

Cross-posted from Double Consciousness.

[Hat tip: xMabaitx and SF Chronicle]

This entry posted in Class, poverty, labor, & related issues, Race, racism and related issues. Bookmark the permalink. 

133 Responses to When White Kids Have Spontaneous Fun, Working Class People of Color Left to Clean Up Their Shit

  1. 1
    Sailorman says:

    Yeah, because none of the 3,000 people were nonwhite (except the ones in the other pictures) and all of the cleanup fell on working class POC (as opposed to falling on the city, who employs both POC and white people) and none of the damage fell on other white people (like, say, the big firm mentioned in the article) and…

    I’m sorry, what was that again? Can you say bullshit?

  2. 2
    Elkins says:

    I remember when a mob was just a type of bonnet worn by nice law-abiding scullery maidens! Those were better times when people didn’t have to worry about homeless aliens putting shaving cream in pies and the children throwing pillows in the streets wasting billions of taxpaying dollars and revenue! Narcissist vagabondary! Unwashed mayhem! Overprivileged underthings! Herbert Hoover would be turning over in his grave if he had the Internet and could read of such unwarranted goonerism! They should all be lined up and shot and forced to scrub out the linens! Preverts!

    The comments at SFGate are made of win.

  3. 3
    PG says:

    From the SF Chron’s excerpt of one of the flashmob messages:
    Practice responsible fun and help clean up.

    I suspect that’s the main problem: the whole point of this is be spontaneous and irresponsible. All the anarchic joy would be gone if you then had to clean up after yourself. Particularly with substances like pillow feathers that won’t just drain away, I’d have no problem with the city’s charging people with littering and fining them accordingly (even if the fines total more than the cost of cleanup, since littering fines are meant to create a dis-incentive to litter, not just cover the cost of cleanup). The fact that you’re littering because you’re HAVING FUN doesn’t make it any better than littering because you’re a lazy jerk who can’t be bothered to chuck his gum wrapper into a waste bin.

  4. 4
    RonF says:

    Come out to the Cook County Forest Preserves (a few of which I live quite close to) and you’ll find plenty of examples of non-whites having spontaneous fun and leaving a bunch of shit for white people to clean up.

    OTOH, it would be a fine thing if those of the perpetrators or participants that the authorities can get their hands on were required to clean up the mess, or an equivalent mess somewhere else.

  5. 5
    Silenced is Foo says:

    Oddly enough, attempting to live inside a quirky romantic comedy or an episode of “Gilmore Girls” generally just results in making other people miserable.

  6. 6
    MH says:

    Agree with all above comments.

  7. 7
    Julie says:

    Unfortunately, this reminds me of the time in college when my friends and I thought it would be neat to chalk quotes all over campus. Early the next morning, I looked out my dorm window to see a WOC wiping one of the quotes off the walkway. (And yes, my college did employ white people, and yes, there were students of color who were irresponsible, too, but come on – let’s look at some general trends, yes?) I think that was one of my first “ah ha!” moments as an activist – but also one of my most shameful moments as a white person.

    Because when you live your life with parents/housekeepers/maintenance crews/city officials/etc. always there to clean up your mess – that is, when you’re never completely responsible for the space you take up – it just doesn’t occur to you that what you leave behind isn’t magically disappearing after you forget about it. This has obvious ties to class and race, of course, but I think it also has a lot to do with consumerism and sustainability. It’s only a short jump from “Oh, someone else’ll clean it up” to “I’ll just throw it away, and then it’ll be gone forever.” If my friends and I thought about it at all, we probably figured that the chalk would be washed off in the rain – but we never considered what “off” meant, or what would happen to it next.

  8. 8
    Sailorman says:

    I just don’t get why this isn’t “Stupid kids causing mess; city and public left to do cleanup” instead of “stupid white kids causing mess; POC left to do cleanup.”

    Heck, it could be “Stupid rich kids causing mess…” and it would be accurate.

    But white? POC? Can someone explain why we got there from here? General trends are all well and good but we are talking about a specific event.

  9. 9
    chingona says:

    city and public left to do cleanup

    That kind of obscures who is doing the actual work. We’re all part of the “public.” I’m not the one spending my day actually cleaning this up.

  10. 10
    Schala says:

    That kind of obscures who is doing the actual work. We’re all part of the “public.” I’m not the one spending my day actually cleaning this up.

    Well, when we talk about “the city plows the street and picks up the snow”, it sure is clear that it’s not me. It’s blue collar work?

  11. 11
    Jack Stephens says:

    I’m sorry, what was that again? Can you say bullshit?

    Considering how I live in San Francisco and have seen a number of these things happen and considering I saw nothing but a see of white faces and where all my life since I was a kid how I’ve seen that the majority of the bus drivers, clean-up crews, and other various city workers have been people of color, I would say no.

    And yes, my college did employ white people, and yes, there were students of color who were irresponsible, too, but come on – let’s look at some general trends, yes?

    Indeed.

  12. 12
    Radfem says:

    One thing that cleaning toilets has taught me is that a lot of students who attended university didn’t know how to flush a toilet without breaking the handle, how to wipe the seat after they were using it, how to properly dispose of papers, how not to use the urinal as target practice and what can and can’t be flushed down the toilet without flooding the room. Why don’t they know these things or do they not care because they’ve grown up having adults(parents or hired) clean up for them? And most of this type of work I’ve been in, I was one of maybe one or two White employees on these assignments.

    And on occasion, not to put used needles in the sanitary napkin box or the trash can.

    When I worked fast food, the majority of employees there were African-American and Latino. When the kids came in and had their inevitable food fights, most of them were White and most of those who cleaned up after them were not.

    Maybe it’s vastly different everywhere else in the country.

  13. 13
    chingona says:

    It’s blue collar work?

    Sure. And you can say this is more of a class issue than a race issue, but in this country there is a lot of overlap with race and class, so I don’t think bringing race into it is out of line.

    And the mess that’s made in situations like this also has be cleaned up by hand in a way that is a lot more onerous than driving a snowplow. And, you know, snow happens. Garbage happens. Potholes happen. The kids here had a choice about their actions and didn’t think about how it would affect other people. I did similarly dumb “whimsical” things when I was younger, and I got chewed out exactly as I deserved for the effect my actions had on others.

  14. 14
    Mandolin says:

    I’m kind of happy to take the concept of flashmobs as performance art, and this to say that I’m pleased to have tax dollars fund cleanup from a certain amount of them.

    Also, Julie: Did the college employ white people? The race divisions there, in terms of who was working in security and janitorial staff and the cafeteria, were starker than I’d ever seen in my life. I found it shocking.

  15. 15
    Harold says:

    Hi Radfem,

    One thing that cleaning toilets has taught me is that a lot of students who attended university didn’t know how to flush a toilet without breaking the handle, how to wipe the seat after they were using it, how to properly dispose of papers, how not to use the urinal as target practice and what can and can’t be flushed down the toilet without flooding the room. Why don’t they know these things or do they not care because they’ve grown up having adults(parents or hired) clean up for them? And most of this type of work I’ve been in, I was one of maybe one or two White employees on these assignments.

    I agree with you that a lot people don’t use public facilitates well. I mean I’m a pretty messy and disorganized person, and even I make sure that the toilet gets properly wiped up if needed, putting garbage in appropriate places, and not littering. I also can’t understand why someone would leave the tap running. It is like there to there is no consideration for the employees who have to clean up or the other people who need to use the facilities. It is strange, but when a person works in a very unglamorous job other people will often take advantage of that fact.

    One other thing that I will point out, while my Highschool was mostly white, I never recalled any person of color engaging in a food fight. I never participated and never could figure out what caused it, but they were very messy.

  16. 16
    Julie says:

    Also, Julie: Did the college employ white people? The race divisions there, in terms of who was working in security and janitorial staff and the cafeteria, were starker than I’d ever seen in my life. I found it shocking.

    Well, there were white people involved in the cleanup (I’m thinking of the facilities office) – but they were sitting behind desks dispatching the POC.

  17. 17
    Radfem says:

    Considering how I live in San Francisco and have seen a number of these things happen and considering I saw nothing but a see of white faces and where all my life since I was a kid how I’ve seen that the majority of the bus drivers, clean-up crews, and other various city workers have been people of color, I would say no.

    L.A.’s the same. My city’s the same and in my city, Black and Latino employees are disproportionately represented on the low end with permanent jobs with benefits and on the higher end with part-time jobs with no benefits and during difficult economic times, it’s the jobs including clean up crews that are disproportionately represented by Black and Latino employees are laid off first. And the city must think something’s not right about this because it lies about its stats (but then it’s lying about its layoff stats in general right now to look better than the cities around it) but I get contacted every time I write about the situation with contradicting information and stats on layoffs especially pertaining to men and women of color.

  18. 18
    Ampersand says:

    It’s true that the people who do the cleaning are disproportionately working class and of color. But why is this more notable with flash mobs, as opposed to thousands of other, more socially sanctioned activities that take place in a city? There’s a ton of litter — not just once in a while, but every day — for a block around every fast food restaurant. Every time a movie or music event has a line around the block, there’s a huge amount of litter left over afterward. Every time there’s a huge sporting event in town, you see sports-related litter everywhere. And those are nothing compared to the parades, of which there are a bunch every year.

    If young people do something utilizing recent technology, then it’s scary and it’s blamed more. Even when it isn’t objectively any worse than many traditional activities.

    I also don’t like the way the news story conflates the pillowfight (which costs many thousands of dollars in damages — it’s a funny idea, in theory, but now that they know what kind of damage it does it seems irresponsible to continue) and the shaving cream fight (which I would guess does very little damage at all). If there’s a riot after a particular football game, no one would say that proves something about sports in general.

    Finally, Sailorman, what makes you assume these kids are rich? I went to PSU — a very working-class college — and the students there like to play and have fun, and all of them have cell phones. These are not characteristics unique to well-off students.

  19. 19
    PG says:

    It’s true that the people who do the cleaning are disproportionately working class and of color. But why is this more notable with flash mobs, as opposed to thousands of other, more socially sanctioned activities that take place in a city? There’s a ton of litter — not just once in a while, but every day — for a block around every fast food restaurant. Every time a movie or music event has a line around the block, there’s a huge amount of litter left over afterward. Every time there’s a huge sporting event in town, you see sports-related litter everywhere. And those are nothing compared to the parades, of which there are a bunch every year.

    Fast food, movies and music events attracting large crowds (with the possible exception of country music), large sporting events (with the possible exception of hockey) and most parades will attract people of color in proportions equal or even greater than their percentage of the city. Indeed, in the case of fast food in urban areas I’d say it’s more heavily patronized by people of color than by whites. There won’t be as huge a discrepancy between the whiteness of the merrymakers and the non-whiteness of the cleaners.

    In contrast, the flashmob phenomenon seems really Stuff White People Like, and to the extent it’s spread by social networking rather than being broadly known and available through universally accessible media (e.g. signs at bus stops), that’s going to exacerbate flashmob events’ being attended predominately by people who are hooked into the same social network. And social networks often are dominated by a particular race. My little sister came to NYC for a New Year’s party that was theoretically open to all, but the word was spread by a network of Indian friends, and that was a very brown party.

  20. 20
    Jack Stephens says:

    It’s true that the people who do the cleaning are disproportionately working class and of color. But why is this more notable with flash mobs

    Because in this instance the contradictions are very stark and heightened; much more apparent.

    I could write plenty of posts on this issue in general. I have a friend as University of San Francisco, for example, who works there, and every time I’ve ever gone there for lunch I’ve seen these, mainly rich, white kids, leave their trash all over the place in where mostly Latino and Asian staff have to clean up after them. Contrast that to San Francisco State University, a more working class school, there is some trash, but overall, not to they extent I’ve seen at USF, which is quite appalling.

    Movies, public transportation, parks, streets, etc. All of these things are there to see. I agree with you on that.

    But I would say that a bunch of white kids getting together and throwing pies all over the place, just to have fun (and then not clean it up), is pretty fucking annoying.

    I’ll bash those mother fuckers all day for all I care, fucks those guys.

  21. 21
    Elusis says:

    I think it’s worth it to link to this post at the Catcubed blog, in which one of the higher-profile participants and sometime-organizer of such free public theatre considers how attached he is to the “leave no trace” philosophy of Burning Man, and concludes that he will be making more thoughtful choices about what to participate in from here forward.

    While “flash mobs” is the wrong term for the kind of events that take place in SF (and the Chronicle article totally fails to reference the Cacaphony Society, which is responsible for both particular events and the culture of appreciation for them that exists here – great reporting, Chron!), I do think it’s valid to ask “how does our fun affect other people?” Zombie mobs and the Brides of March and public performances of the Thriller dance? Not so much. The pillowfight is clearly a lot more onerous in terms of literally spilling out and affecting non-consensual “participants.” And yes, public mayhem always trickles down to those lowest on the totem pole who have to clean up, which in this country is largely POC.

    One point from the Chron’s website comments (which I think are mostly made of FAIL – the comment forums routinely attract the worst kind of racism, sexism, homophobia, xenophobia, and general cranks who seem to be oozing contempt for their fellow humans) that I think is worth repeating, and should have been part of a well-reported article:

    Saying “the pillow fight cost $20,000 to clean up” may be accurate, but it is not comprehensive. Consider how much money was spent on public transit to the event. Consider how many people stayed in the city afterwards and went out to eat, went to a bar for drinks, or went on to some other kind of public entertainment like a club, all of which produce income for local businesses and tax revenue for the city. Now do the math.

    A cost/benefit analysis has to include the benefits. The Chron’s reporting only focuses on the costs. I say this not because I think it’s OK to make that kind of mess and not clean up (in fact I emphatically don’t), but because I think the culture of bizarre fun in SF has benefits that are worth noting (see also “tax-sponsored performance art” above?)

    Me, I’m gearing up for the Brides of March on Saturday. I’ve already put $40 into the pockets of the nearest Goodwill for the dress, and will be laying down a decent chunk of change for transit and libations as we bar-hop. And there shouldn’t be anything to clean up afterwards.

  22. 22
    RonF says:

    Apparently the Mall in Washington, D.C. was a huge mess after the inauguration, and there were plenty of non-whites there. You may be right about predominant races among clean-up crews in urban areas (although there are plenty of Poles and Irish here in Chicago), but non-white crowds are at least just as likely to leave a huge mess behind them as white crowds are – around here people would say more likely.

  23. 23
    Sailorman says:

    I don’t get this.

    Jack, are you complaining because the kids were messy? I’m with you. Are you complaining because they were thoughtless? I’m still with you.

    But it seems like you are partially complaining because they were white–that their whiteness somehow makes their actions worse. Why?

    When you say

    But I would say that a bunch of white kids getting together and throwing pies all over the place….

    Now, I’m going to use the old “substitution” trick.

    We all know that pretty much all groups have some sort of public meeting. there are civil rights marches, there are KKK marcher, there are gay and latino and cancer and what-have-you organized groups and get togethers and whatnot.

    They all leave trash. ALL of them. hell, the Earth Day celebrations leave trash.

    So: is it not a problem when the black groups leave trash? When the Latino or Asian groups leave trash? Is it magically OK to litter or to mess things up because, you know, some people of your race work to clean it up and that excuses it all?

    that is sort of a fucked up explanation.

  24. 24
    Decnavda says:

    I’m interested in why it’s considered problematic that it is primarily PoC doing the cleaning and maintainence. This is work, it puts money in their pockets they otherwise would not have. And city maintainence jobs, are relatively speaking, good blue-collar jobs.

    Now, it certainly *IS* a problem that PoC are disproportionately in need of work that rich people, mostly white, would not consider doing. So if these pictures were captioned so as to use them to illustrate the problem of the disproportionate need of PoC, then I would have no objection. But the implication here is that it would have better if these white kids had not made the mess so that we would not have to pay these PoC to clean up after them, without allusion to the real problem of the need of PoC for these jobs.

    So complain about white kids making messes the public has to clean up. And complain about PoC being disproportionately poor and in need of clean-up jobs. But PoC getting the jobs they unfairly need out of this seems like a good outcome to me.

  25. 25
    Julie says:

    But why is this more notable with flash mobs, as opposed to thousands of other, more socially sanctioned activities that take place in a city?

    Judging from my own experience (with the chalking incident, a more general hippy-dippy campus atmosphere, and friends who are involved in the SF zombie marches), I’d say it’s because flash mobs are intended to shock people out of their routines by being whimsical, charming, and fun – but the people involved don’t stop to think about whether the workers cleaning up after them are going to be charmed by it. It’s the same reason I’m really wary of big critical mass rides; promoting bike culture is great, but not when it prevents tired drivers and bus riders from picking up their kids. There’s a lot of privilege in assuming that everyone around you is going to have as much fun as you are – or being able to forget about the ones who you know won’t.

    Decnavda, I’m a little unclear on your comment – are you suggesting that the city of San Francisco hired new workers to clean up after the flashmob? I was under the impression that the jobs these people already had were just made more unpleasant.

  26. 26
    La Lubu says:

    Finally, Sailorman, what makes you assume these kids are rich?

    I can’t speak for Sailorman, but I assumed these kids were rich, too. Look at what they are wearing—-mostly jackets, button-down shirts, slacks and ties for the young men, dresses or blouse and skirts with high heels for the young women. These kids got really, really dressed up for this event, and then sprayed shaving cream and wallowed around on the ground? That’s not something working class kids or poor kids would do with their best clothes.

    One of the biggest disconnects I have with those who grew up “middle class” or “rich” (in quotations because people draw those lines differently—-where I grew up, if your mother and father were doctors, lawyers, bankers and such, you were “rich”; on the Internet the term “rich” seems to be reserved for Old Money. YMMV) is how they view material objects and what it takes to buy them. Not making a moral judgement here, just noting that having a strong safety net gives a person a different view, and results in different styles of parenting.

    My immediate reaction to this was a visceral, “WTF!!!!” Fucking rich kids!” One of the things drilled into me from an early age was Taking Good Care of Your Things. I lived in several neighborhoods in different cities growing up, but one of the constants was how parents would Kick Ass if their kid broke or damaged something expensive. Or how you couldn’t go out to play until your changed your clothes into something already worn out. There was a strong sense of “take care of this, because if your screw it up, there’s no more where this came from.”

    And that’s what gets me about this scene—I don’t think of it as fun at all. My thought was “what if some bystander had his or her nice clothes or shoes ruined because of a rich kid’s prank?” It takes more than money to replace them—it takes time. Time to earn the money to replace broken items. Time from your life. Everything I ever bought, I think in terms of how long I had to work to buy it. Just….automatically. XXXX price translates immediately into XXXX hours I had to spend on the job to get that money. I know a lot of working class folks who think that way—in terms of the sacrifice made to have something of value. Something new, or beautiful.

    And that’s what I don’t get about this scene, or food fights, or anything where something valuable or useful is destroyed for fun. I can understand the frustration that leads people to break something in rage, but I can’t wrap my head around having fun breaking something that could be used.

    I see this crap, and I think it’s a gratuitous display of wealth—kind of a “nyah, nyah, I can throw away what you have to bust your ass for.”

  27. 27
    Decnavda says:

    Julie-

    Sort of, yes, I am suggesting that. Look, if this was just a bizarre one-off event, then no, it not lead to more employment and would just make the current workers’ jobs more miserable. But if this was just a bizarre one-off event, then there would be no systemic issue to discuss. Surprise gatherings of a lot of people that need extra clean-up afterwards are a fairly common occurance in San Francisco, and if the city does not plan for them by having extra on-call clean-up workers, then that is a serious over-sight of the city government.

  28. 28
    Ampersand says:

    It’s the same reason I’m really wary of big critical mass rides; promoting bike culture is great, but not when it prevents tired drivers and bus riders from picking up their kids. There’s a lot of privilege in assuming that everyone around you is going to have as much fun as you are – or being able to forget about the ones who you know won’t.

    The entire road system is built for the convenience of motor vehicles, with the needs of bike riders and pedestrians (many of whom work, many of whom are parents) thrown in mainly as an afterthought. And the needs of drivers are subsidized like crazy from tax dollars.

    Life in society means that sometimes other people’s fun — and other people’s work, for that matter — will get in all of our way. A society in which traffic is never delayed by people building communities and having fun isn’t preferable to one in which people sometimes have to wait while the parade — or the bikes — go by.

    Critical Mass, in particular, is — insofar as it can be defined, which isn’t easy since there is no central organization — subversive and political by its nature. I think that political protests causing inconvenience to commuters is unfortunate but acceptable.

  29. 29
    Kai Jones says:

    in this country there is a lot of overlap with race and class, so I don’t think bringing race into it is out of line.

    Given that more white people are on welfare than POC, just what overlap of race and class are you identifying?

  30. 30
    Mandolin says:

    Kai, did you just flip from percentages to absolute values?

  31. 31
    Elusis says:

    Um, La Lubu, the outfits people wear to events like this are pretty uniformly from *thrift stores*.

  32. 32
    Ampersand says:

    La Luba, looking at those photos, you see idle, spoiled rich kids; I see people who spent $5-$20 at the thrift shop. (I also see some participants in jeans and ordinary shirts).

    Also, isn’t shaving cream made of soap and water? I routinely spill some on my shirt when I shave; it wipes off and dries without leaving a mark. No ordinary outfit will have to be thrown away if a bit of shaving cream accidently hits it.

    It feels like you’re reaching to find excuses to hate these kids. I realize you don’t find this fun, but your tone of anger makes it sound like they’re crossing picket lines or voting for Bush. They found something enjoyable that you wouldn’t find fun; they got a little messy and had to wash their thrift-shop clothing; they made a bit of a public spectacle. None of that deserves contempt.

  33. 33
    Maia says:

    Julie – I actually think there’s a significant difference between your example and the other things that have been talked about in this thread. The chalk doesn’t have to come off, it is not getting in anyone’s way or causing any problems (unlike litter).

    PG – But the comparison with a sports game is where I think a class analysis is needed as well. Because while a major sports even might be representative in terms of race in terms of who attends, the PoC who are attending the game are not going to be the same PoC who are cleaning up after it.

    This way of analysing something like that isn’t really my sort of politics anyway. It’s too close to individualised blaming, and not really structural analysis.

  34. 34
    La Lubu says:

    I see people who spent $5-$20 at the thrift shop

    Perhaps you have better thrift shops where you live, and cheaper prices. You wouldn’t find clothes like that in my city at the thrift shop.

    Also, isn’t shaving cream made of soap and water? I routinely spill some on my shirt when I shave; it wipes off and dries without leaving a mark. No ordinary outfit will have to be thrown away if a bit of shaving cream accidently hits it.

    So, if you were just a bystander, passing through, with no idea that this event was going to happen (wrong place, wrong time) wouldn’t mind having a nice leather jacket or shoes, or some dry-clean only clothes get completely soaked in shaving cream? I sure the hell would. I wouldn’t care for getting soaked in shaving cream with just a t-shirt and jeans on (especially if I weren’t on my way home), but I could live with that—but if I was dressed? Oh hell yeah, I’d be taking a piece out of somebody.

    Or maybe I’m missing something and this event was cordoned off, with signs warning spectators not to enter unless they wanted to participate.

  35. 35
    Maia says:

    I don’t really have an opinion on kids an ocean away from me having a shaving cream fight. But I do find that this thread is bringing up frissures in analysis that I think are important, but find hard to articulate.

    It’s the same reason I’m really wary of big critical mass rides; promoting bike culture is great, but not when it prevents tired drivers and bus riders from picking up their kids. There’s a lot of privilege in assuming that everyone around you is going to have as much fun as you are – or being able to forget about the ones who you know won’t.

    But I will say Julie that I think your analysis of Critical Mass reminds me of the analysis of the NY Transit strike a few years back. There were people who were using the fact that people who were worse off than the striking workers would have their lives made worse by the strike as a reason not to support the striking workers. Clearly I thought that analysis of the transit strike was complete bullshit (I’m not saying that you shared that analysis, I don’t know what you’re position on strikes is, I’m just saying that the reasoning is similar).

    Now these kids weren’t on strike, and there’s nothing to support about their actions. But I guess I think this sort of thinking does lead to ridiculous analysis of things which are important (like strikes). Because it is always focusing on what individuals do to create a situation, rather than looking at the structural reasons for the situation existing. Focusing the rage on the kids who make mess, rather than the companies that pay poverty wages, and the reasons people need to take those wages, is putting the blame in the wrong place.

    On top of that it seems to me that priviledge analysis is completely different from solidarity, and can be incompatible with it. I think there’s far too much focus on analysing priviledge in discussions in teh blogsphere and not nearly enough on solidarity.

    Which is all reasons why I should get round to writing “the limits of priviledge analysis post” that I’ve had in my head for years.

  36. 36
    Julie says:

    Amp and Maia –

    I don’t want to derail the thread, so I’ll keep this short, but I guess the reason why I feel uneasy about Critical Mass is that it seems to me that the riders have two goals: a) to promote and normalize cycling, and b) to build community among cyclists and have fun. They’ve got the second one down, but are they addressing the structural factors that lead people to drive instead of ride – most notably a lack of walkable communities, affordable housing where jobs are located, and safe space on the road? It’s one thing to say that a certain amount of inconvenience is acceptable when a larger goal is being accomplished, but what is Critical Mass accomplishing? (Of course, I know that lots of CM riders to try to keep traffic moving, and I’m sure plenty more are also lobbying local governments for affordable housing and cyclists’ rights.)

    Mandolin – fair enough (assuming chalk is nontoxic). My point was mainly that we didn’t stop to think about how the quotes would be cleaned up.

  37. 37
    Mandolin says:

    “Mandolin – fair enough (assuming chalk is nontoxic). My point was mainly that we didn’t stop to think about how the quotes would be cleaned up.”

    That was Maia, actually. Not that it matters much, of course. :-D

  38. 38
    Radfem says:

    So, if you were just a bystander, passing through, with no idea that this event was going to happen (wrong place, wrong time) wouldn’t mind having a nice leather jacket or shoes, or some dry-clean only clothes get completely soaked in shaving cream? I sure the hell would. I wouldn’t care for getting soaked in shaving cream with just a t-shirt and jeans on (especially if I weren’t on my way home), but I could live with that—but if I was dressed? Oh hell yeah, I’d be taking a piece out of somebody.

    You don’t know if these people being inconvenienced as some might say, were on their way to job interviews or formal affairs. It’s like those kids who drive cars, come up to large puddles and deliberately splash through them when people are walking by and then stick out their windows and laugh. I’m sure that’s all in good fun and some say that’s funny but if you’re impacting the life of a stranger for kicks, you don’t know what effect that your joke or horseplay or amusement has had on that person. From personal experience, having to be covered from head to toe with mud and water on my way to work for some strangers’ amusement, not cool. Food fights where the people working there might not only have to clean up but have to wear the food, not cool. Yes, people are paid to clean it but then you have to spend your time doing that and not waiting on people or serving people who instead of venting at the people doing the food fighting who might be long gone by then, vent at the workers. Seen this a lot, experienced it too.

    But there’s an amazing if somewhat disappointing sense of entitlement against a lot of kids and in my area, mostly White kids in nice cars doing the splashing that their amusement is paramount to potentially a stranger’s livelihood.

  39. 39
    Jack Stephens says:

    This comment thread is really interesting. I like it!

  40. 40
    Radfem says:

    It’s bringing out my aggression.

    Another interesting lesson learned in the world of fast food. Some of my most polite customers were police academy cadets coming for food after doing basic training. Some of my worst? Police officers and deputies telling racist (and ableist) jokes in front of people. I didn’t get why the two groups were at opposite ends of the spectrum but I think I do now.

  41. 41
    Julie says:

    That was Maia, actually. Not that it matters much, of course. :-D

    Ack! Sorry.

  42. 42
    Ampersand says:

    So, if you were just a bystander, passing through, with no idea that this event was going to happen (wrong place, wrong time) wouldn’t mind having a nice leather jacket or shoes, or some dry-clean only clothes get completely soaked in shaving cream?

    I could imagine a bystander getting hit with a small dollop of shaving cream, but how could anyone be “completely soaked” without deliberately standing in the middle of the fight? Unless you’re suggesting that they’re attacking people who are non-participants — which would go completely against the ethic of every flash mob I’ve ever heard of — you’re criticizing them for a completely nonexistent problem here.

    Certainly, if they attacked me deliberately and with a great amount of foam when I wasn’t willing to participate, I’d find that very annoying. But I hope that if I got hit by a stray fleck of foam, I’d shrug it off, just like I shrug off all sorts of things on a day to day basis.

    Radfem:

    It’s like those kids who drive cars, come up to large puddles and deliberately splash through them when people are walking by and then stick out their windows and laugh.

    That’s an unfair comparison; these folks aren’t being malicious, and aren’t attacking unwilling participants. You might as well say that if two friends are having a fun wrestling match, that’s like what muggers do.

  43. 43
    Elusis says:

    I’m 1) disappointed at the lack of response to my earlier comment (perhaps because it contained a link and got held up in moderation?) and 2) disappointed by some commenters’ apparent desire to judge the participants and events in question without doing any research into them at all.

    The Pie Fight’s invite said “To appreciate this group’s sense of sensibility, formal wear is encouraged. Punctuality shows not only proper etiquette but also keen ability to follow through with exemplary fashion. Thusly, we will be meeting ( 3.5.9) 5:39 PM Sharp. It will surely be a spectacle. I hope to hear from you all soon.” To San Franciscans, the meaning is clear: go thrift yourself a dandy retro schmancy outfit, wax your moustache, and turn up with quirky sense of humor intact. I’ve lived in some small towns, but never one where I couldn’t find a suit jacket and trousers or a tacky bridesmaid’s dress for a sawbuck or two.

    The Pie Fight invitation didn’t set out clear boundaries about bystanders, but the Pillow Fight clearly spells out the rules as “4) Don’t hit anyone without a pillow (unless they want it) 5) Don’t hit anyone with a camera,” and the Zombie Mob always says that people who want to show up as “human” and be “turned” should mark themselves with some kind of duct tape symbol, and otherwise, “don’t get blood on innocent humans (or objects) unless you get their expressed [sic] permission.” In other words, generally there is a clear understanding that only those looking to partake in the event should be involved.

    I don’t know how the discussion here is helped by presuming malice on the part of the participants.

  44. 44
    Radfem says:

    Never mind.

  45. 45
    drydock says:

    I’m outraged by this shaving cream fight. OUTRAGED!!!!!!

    And the city workers had do their job. Another outrage. The union needs to march on city hall!!!!!! NOW!!!

    I get off at the Powell BART station everyday on my way to work, right in the direct line of fire. If I had gotten hit by some shaving cream— man— someone would have DIED!!! (Though I probably would have and to ask about their class background first, just to make sure that I was killing a PRIVILEGED WHITE BOY.)

    I thought worrying about the economic meltdown, keeping my job, health care, out of control street violence, and the war Iraq was enough. Now this shaving cream shit. When does it end?

  46. 46
    Mandolin says:

    Drydock,

    This is a warning. Don’t do this again, or you’ll be banned.

    Clarification: I chatted about this with Amp. I felt that your comment wrongly condensed the arguments that people are making here in good faith with things like expressing intent to murder. Amp doesn’t agree, although he suggested the comment was mean-spirited. So, in any case, my objection may not be salient to what was actually intended, but try to pull back a little.

  47. 47
    Mandolin says:

    Drydock,

    This is a warning. Don’t do this again, or you’ll be banned.

    Clarification: I chatted about this with Amp. I felt that your comment wrongly condensed the arguments that people are making here in good faith with things like expressing intent to murder. Amp doesn’t agree, although he suggested the comment was mean-spirited. So, in any case, my objection may not be salient to what was actually intended, but try to pull back a little.
    BTW I love your blog!

  48. 48
    Jack Stephens says:

    And the city workers had do their job. Another outrage. The union needs to march on city hall!!!!!! NOW!!!

    How fucked up. That’s like (and this has happened a lot for me) when a teacher tells the students (middle school) to make sure to clean up after themselves many of them will say. “Why!? We have janitors! It’s their job!” It’s understandable for middle schoolers, they don’t necessarily know the class dynamics laced within the comment.

    Being a city street cleaner is not a fun job, it’s a job, but not a fun job. It’s a hard job and a dirty job. And it’s crushing to a lot of folks to have to clean up a needlessly unnecessary mess when others could have easily have cleaned up the mess they made themselves. Kinda makes you feel like shit, actually, like, “Fuck it, those folks can clean it up, not me.”

    So the whole thing about the, predominantly, white folks not cleaning up after themselves, then the whole racial and class aspect behind much of the clean-up, and, more likely, many of those folks not knowing it was wrong in the first place to partake in an action such as that and not necessarily help to clean up the mess (I’ve seen a few of these things, they don’t last long, and when they’re done, they up and leave in a hurry). There are many undercurrents flowing through this whole thing that we need to be aware of; and you being facetious ain’t helping.

  49. 49
    Jack Stephens says:

    Is it magically OK to litter or to mess things up because, you know, some people of your race work to clean it up and that excuses it all?

    No where in any of my comments did I ever allude to anything remotely close to this. What in God’s name are you talking about?

  50. 50
    La Lubu says:

    It’s like those kids who drive cars, come up to large puddles and deliberately splash through them when people are walking by and then stick out their windows and laugh.

    Yes! That exactly! That, and food fights, is exactly what my mind flashed on when I read the story. There’s a high school in a white-flight community close to my city that has an annual “food fight” tradition for the senior class; a couple of years ago it apparently went waaayyy over the top, enough to attract the attention of the media (and thus, people like me, who have never heard of it). Let’s just say the reaction to the news fell neatly along class lines, with the wealthier folks saying something like, “aww, they’re just kids, blowing off steam” and the struggling folks saying something like, “what. a. waste!!!!” and the inevitable comparisons of how many resources are dedicated toward the “good” school with the “good” kids who throw foodfights, while the city schools do without.

    We all bring our past experiences to the table when we do our evaluating. My past experiences have been like radfem’s—having to either deal with or pick up the pieces after ridiculously privileged people throw their weight around without having any consequences for it. I’ve been that person getting soaked by puddles, or had soda (from shook-up cans) sprayed on me because rich kids in passing cars thought that was a load of fun.

    I see this as different from Critical Mass, because Critical Mass is at least using the road for what it was intended for—vehicular transportation. Granted, non-motorized transportation, but that isn’t really different from any other type of traffic jam. I also see the resulting mess as different from mass events like parades, street fests, etc., because a lot of the mess from those events is the result of not enough garbage cans and/or the inability of trucks to get through the crowd to dump the trash (the Soulard Mardi Gras is notorious for that, because the streets are so narrow and there aren’t many alleyways—in the evening when the crowds are really thick, the service trucks for garbage and Johnny-On-the-Spots can’t get through!). It’s not really people just littering at will (IMHO, people litter a helluva lot less than they did in the seventies). For scheduled events, extra people are either hired or scheduled for overtime for the inevitable extra work, so the burden isn’t placed on a skeleton crew (who may get overtime, but may have to scramble to arrange for family obligations—-unscheduled overtime is a bear for people with kids or others they look after to work around).

    Yeah, I jumped to the conclusion that a “flash mob” is just like any other mob. Some folks with malice, some not but caught up in the moment. Thing is, if they’re that disciplined, why not go a little further and get a city permit? I just think about how community groups where I live (like the blues club, the labor council, etc.) have to pony up money for permits to hold events (for extra police presence , cleanup, cordons, electrical service drops). These flash mobs are getting for free what other groups—mostly nonprofits—have to pay for.

  51. 51
    PG says:

    Thing is, if they’re that disciplined, why not go a little further and get a city permit? I just think about how community groups where I live (like the blues club, the labor council, etc.) have to pony up money for permits to hold events (for extra police presence , cleanup, cordons, electrical service drops). These flash mobs are getting for free what other groups—mostly nonprofits—have to pay for.

    Yes, and those permits go to help pay for the extra cleanup costs, instead of adding that extra bit of work and burden on the city. I paid $100 for a permit to get some photos taken in a city park at 7:30am — an activity that created no mess, traffic or any other problem for anyone. I’m really puzzled by the implicit belief of the flashmob supporters that cities have some unlimited quantity of money to spend on cleaning up after people having fun. Any dollar spent out of a city budget — especially right now in a recession and especially in broke-ass California — on cleaning up after fun is a dollar that isn’t going to other needs, including the exploding need of suddenly-unemployed families for shelter. That’s another way in which this feels privileged: those of us for whom the city provides services we only occasionally need and mostly never have to think about (police protection, cleanup) as opposed to those for whom the city provides essential services (a motel room in which to stay while looking for a new job).

    If I want to have fun by getting messy and getting other people messy, I go pay a fair amount of money to play paintball, and the money I pay covers the cost of cleaning up the mess I make. I don’t impose externalities on other people for the sake of my entertainment. “Don’t impose externalities just for the sake of your own fun, particularly when you can afford to pay for the cost of your fun,” is a reasonable social expectation.

  52. 52
    RonF says:

    La Lubu:

    Thing is, if they’re that disciplined, why not go a little further and get a city permit?

    That would remove the illusion of anarchy and therefore suck some of the fun out. From the SF Chronicle article:

    But [some city official] acknowledged that such conformance would be contrary to the flash mob’s decidedly decentralized, anti-bureaucratic principles. Kern said Rec and Park does not even know how to contact the pillow fight’s anonymous organizers.

    A series of e-mail and phone inquiries from The Chronicle seeking comment from pillow fight organizers went unanswered.

    However, one of the pie fight organizers, who gave his name as Herbie Hatman, seemed unfazed by the concern. Wearing a bowler hat and tuxedo and covered in shaving cream at Thursday’s event, he shrugged at the suggested rules. “That seems like a natural response from the city,” he said.

    Mr. Kern, meet Mr. Hatman. He’ll be glad to tell you that your inability to find out who the organizers were is not a bug, it’s a feature.

    Also, as far as non-participants getting slimed, take another look at those pictures. Apparently it took some time to get out the plates and fill them full of shaving cream and there was one picture of everyone standing around with full plates waiting for a start signal. Me, I see a bunch of people doing all this and I’m going to amble off to the sidelines.

    Or maybe I’m lying. Depending on what I had to do in the next couple of hours it’s 50:50 I’d go see if anyone had any extra plates and shaving cream. But that’s just me. Non-participants seem to me to have had ample time to get out of the line of fire.

    Mandolin and Amp:

    I laughed when I read drydock’s comment. It seemed to me that he (or she) was being satirical and expressing that people were getting absurdly or disproportionately worked up over something a lot less important that the actual crises we face these days. His comment was not meant to be literal.

    So, yeah – this kind of thing costs money to clean up (especially the pillow fight they were talking about, that seems to have been a bad idea), and I can see where the city would complain. It did cost the taxpayers money. And it’s irresponsible of the kids. But I must say it sounds like great fun and in my heart there’s some sympathy for Mandolin’s “performance art” comment. I work a lot with kids. I see them get involved in a lot of different things, some of which can be pretty anti-social. I would be glad to kick in my share for the kids to blow off some steam in what is overall a reasonably harmless fashion.

    What can I say? Growing old is mandatory. Growing up is optional.

  53. 53
    PG says:

    RonF,

    Do you think graffiti also ought to be legal and its cleanup subsidized by your tax dollars? It’s spontaneous, expressive, actual art art (as opposed to performance art) done mostly by young people, often to have fun and “blow off steam.”

  54. 54
    chingona says:

    There’s a high school in a white-flight community close to my city that has an annual “food fight” tradition for the senior class; a couple of years ago it apparently went waaayyy over the top, enough to attract the attention of the media (and thus, people like me, who have never heard of it). Let’s just say the reaction to the news fell neatly along class lines, with the wealthier folks saying something like, “aww, they’re just kids, blowing off steam” and the struggling folks saying something like, “what. a. waste!!!!”

    A tradition has developed at the University of Arizona graduation ceremony to throw tortillas in the air at the end. Sure, not every kid throwing a tortilla is white or rich, but you still have this kind of nasty situation where people who have more are making a huge mess for the people who have less to clean up. Yes, there would be trash after graduation anyway, but there’s a whole hell of lot more of it when several thousand people are throwing tortillas. That doesn’t even get into the waste of food in a city that always been kind of down on its luck and even more so now and the racist overtones of throwing tortillas for the mostly Latino janitorial staff to clean up in a city where the main racial divide is Mexican/Anglo.

    That actually was the first thing I thought of when I read about this. I understand there was no malice, but they didn’t think and they should have. (And everyone is focused here on the shaving cream because it’s what we see in the pictures, but it’s the feathers that are the problem.)

  55. 55
    Ampersand says:

    I don’t think we’re focused on the shaving cream because it’s what in the pictures; I think we’re focused on the shaving cream because there’s a lot of disagreement about that, versus very little disagreement about the pillowfight.

    I paid $100 for a permit to get some photos taken in a city park at 7:30am — an activity that created no mess, traffic or any other problem for anyone.

    This is a bit off-topic, but unless the park isn’t open yet at that hour, I find that completely bizarre, not to mention an affront to free speech. Why should anyone have the right to put conditions of you taking photographs of a public park?

    * * *

    I find it ironic how the concerns for class have evaporated in this thread. Remember, it’s only okay for rich people to do fun things in public; poor people shouldn’t be allowed to do that, because they don’t have $1500 to drop on a permit! Only club owners and stadium owners — who I guess represent the working class? — are allowed to create mess.

    * * *

    I go back and forth on graffiti. It’s not comparable to a shaving cream fight, because graffiti is permanent and destroys something, whereas shaving cream pretty much melts away if you wait a day.

    On the other hand, there are examples of really beautifully-done graffiti on inconsiderate buildings (buildings that are created with large, featureless, ugly walls, blighting the public landscape), and that does improve things. I still think graffiti should be illegal, except perhaps on some designated walls given over to the purpose; but I also think that buildings that ugly should be illegal, especially in downtown areas where people have no choice but to be.

    In Portland, part of the problem is that it’s illegal to create large murals on such walls, which would be the obvious solution. (It’s illegal because the city wants to outlaw large mural advertisements, but free speech law in Oregon doesn’t permit the city to distinguish between an advertising mural and a mural done for art’s sake).

  56. 56
    cory says:

    Anybody interested in exploring the seemingly age-ist way the conversation has played out? Sounds like most comments have very specific assumptions about “kids,” their reasons for acting, and their (lack of) respect for others. Just thought I’d throw that out there.

    Also, anyone ever question why it is socially acceptable to leave your popcorn bag and soda can behind at a movie theater? That gets on my very last nerve. And it happens to occur just as often in indie foreign films as it does in action movies.

  57. 57
    PG says:

    This is a bit off-topic, but unless the park isn’t open yet at that hour, I find that completely bizarre, not to mention an affront to free speech. Why should anyone have the right to put conditions of you taking photographs of a public park?

    I should have been clearer: the park was open at that hour, but the photos were in the park, not of the park, and were being taken by a professional photographer. At that point it’s considered “commercial photography,” even if the photos are for a private purpose (e.g. a class photo or wedding pictures), and the city wants a fee.

    Remember, it’s only okay for rich people to do fun things in public; poor people shouldn’t be allowed to do that, because they don’t have $1500 to drop on a permit! Only club owners and stadium owners — who I guess represent the working class? — are allowed to create mess.

    Club owners and stadium owners generally aren’t creating the mess without paying for it. It’s pretty easy for the city to go after a business owner, and of course businesses have get licenses approved, so they want to stay on good terms with the city. A permit is a way of indicating that you’ll front the cost of cleaning up after yourself. If people who can’t afford the permit can be certain that they either won’t cause any mess or that they will do the cleanup, that would be a different situation than those discussed in this thread thus far. If it’s fun that requires absolutely no cleanup whatsoever, have at it!

  58. 58
    Radfem says:

    Thanks La Luba and Jack Stephens for your comments. For a while there, I thought I just was another woman with no sense of humor.

  59. 59
    chingona says:

    I think we’re focused on the shaving cream because there’s a lot of disagreement about that, versus very little disagreement about the pillowfight.

    Really? Cause I don’t really see how people can say this was just good clean fun that didn’t impinge on anyone if they account for the feathers.

    I don’t have a problem with this kind of performance, street theater, whatever as a general thing (and I think of Critical Mass as a form of protest in which the inconvenience it causes is part of the point), and getting a permit would be beside the point.

    There’s another solution that doesn’t stop it from being spontaneous and doesn’t require paying permit fees. Clean up your own damn mess!

  60. 60
    Ampersand says:

    Really? Cause I don’t really see how people can say this was just good clean fun that didn’t impinge on anyone if they account for the feathers.

    Agreement in the other direction, I meant; almost no one here seems inclined to defend the pillowfight, I presume because of the damage caused by the feathers. (That’s certainly why I think the pillowfight was wrong.)

  61. 61
    Elusis says:

    I find it ironic how the concerns for class have evaporated in this thread. Remember, it’s only okay for rich people to do fun things in public; poor people shouldn’t be allowed to do that, because they don’t have $1500 to drop on a permit! Only club owners and stadium owners — who I guess represent the working class? — are allowed to create mess.

    Exactly.

    And the assumption that these folks are “rich” is also pretty absurd. I know many folks pictured in photos from various SF events of this type. And a lot of them are self-employed artists, bartenders, “floor gnomes” who clean up *other* people’s mess at clubs, massage therapists working out of their homes, students, people who work at non-profits…. in short, hardly “rich” people.

    In fact, if you compare the cost of thrifting an outfit and buying a pie tin and some shaving cream to the cost of going to the symphony or to a show in the theatre district or even out to a restaurant, what a bargain.

    I also notice that no one has yet responded to the point I cited above: that people transiting into the city center, then having an event, then hanging around for drinks or a burrito or a club night actually create REVENUE for the city. Which doesn’t solve the class issue inherent in “making a mess somene else has to clean up,” which is indeed a valid point that some of the more visible people in the scene are taking on board and considering how to address (I already linked, go scroll up and look). But it does mean that there is not a straight-up benefit to shutting them down utterly.

    Anybody interested in exploring the seemingly age-ist way the conversation has played out? Sounds like most comments have very specific assumptions about “kids,” their reasons for acting, and their (lack of) respect for others. Just thought I’d throw that out there.

    And I’ll add another “exactly” here. I’m 35. Most of my friends are in their early to mid-30s. Which might be “kids” to some, but there are plenty of reasonably grown-up, job-holding, working-class or middle-class people who are also interested in absurdist fun.

    Finally: since it’s been established that there are fairly clear ethics about not involving non-participants, can we lay off the “rich kids splashing a pedestrian with their car” rhetoric, and the assertion that someone has been accused of not having a sense of humor? My objection is not to whether or not someone finds these events interesting or amusing, but to the assumption of maliciousness about the participants.

  62. 62
    Julie says:

    (and I think of Critical Mass as a form of protest in which the inconvenience it causes is part of the point)

    But that takes us right back to one of my original questions: what is it accomplishing? And, for that matter, what exactly is it protesting? If the only answer is the obvious one – car culture – then, like I said above, I feel like it’s not addressing the underlying causes.

    Let me be clear that I’m not condemning it, I just think it raises some important questions about strategy and community building that I think are related (albeit loosely) to flash mobs.

    (I’m not going to have internet access until late tonight, so sorry if it looks like I’ve dropped this in and then vanished.)

  63. 63
    grendelkhan says:

    La Lubu: My immediate reaction to this was a visceral, “WTF!!!!” Fucking rich kids!” One of the things drilled into me from an early age was Taking Good Care of Your Things. I lived in several neighborhoods in different cities growing up, but one of the constants was how parents would Kick Ass if their kid broke or damaged something expensive. Or how you couldn’t go out to play until your changed your clothes into something already worn out. There was a strong sense of “take care of this, because if your screw it up, there’s no more where this came from.”

    This–exactly this. I know people who aren’t noticeably wealthier than I am, but grew up that way, and they don’t have the same attitude toward things that I do. Sometimes it comes out in expecting far too much from cheap, planned-obsolete consumer goods which I expect to work pretty much indefinitely (my microwave cost thirty bucks, has survived three and a half years and one change of apartments, but I’m furious that the tray no longer rotates properly), but sometimes it does come out in incredulous wonder that anyone could act so wasteful.

  64. 64
    Elkins says:

    Another “exactly” from me here on the ageist angle. I’m 42, and events like this one look like a lot of fun to me. Here in Portland, you often see middle-aged folks involved in similar quasi-spontaneous community-building events. I’m not sure where this “idle kids” vs. “working adults” framing is coming from, unless it’s just that anyone up for having a bit of silly fun is considered “childish,” and that this then shifts from connotation to assumption: they’re children, therefore they couldn’t possibly be people who work for a living.

    I’m also rather wary of the apparent assumption that the participants in a flash mob must by necessity be wealthier than the city employees who clean the streets of San Francisco.

  65. 65
    Maia says:

    PG – If anyone’s taking a tally I’m completely pro-graffitti.

    I’m with Amp, suddenly in the name of class people are arguing on the side of the city? It’s not a class analysis to say that people should have to pay money before they’re allowed to gather en-masse. If things are made harder for flash mobs, they’ll also be made harder for protesters, and particularly young PoC.

    I get that people find these kids annoying, and I can see why (although I don’t share that annoyance). But that’s no reason to let go of basic political analysis – such as rules made by the city (or state) will be used against the most vulnerable first.

    Also I think the usual scepticism of the media servicing their own ends should apply. If you look at the full set of photos it is clear that the man depicted in the picture was changing the rubbish bin. We actually have no idea how much anyone else had to tidy up the mess from the flash mob. The shaving cream appears to have been left where it was. Did people clean up there own paper plates or leave others to do it is a valid question, but not one we know the answer to

  66. 66
    chingona says:

    Julie @ 62

    I think it’s fair to ask what it’s accomplishing. I haven’t been involved in it in a long time. I heard somewhere the Chicago one was thinking about disbanding because so much had been accomplished in making the city bike-friendly (and it was getting so large that it really was out of hand in terms of the time it took to clear an intersection). The way I interpreted it at the time is that we were trying to make bikes visible but also point out that cars inconvenience us a lot but we’ve normalized it so much we just expect everyone to accommodate cars. It was a form of role reversal. I also saw it as “we’re going to inconvenience you until you start to take us and our needs seriously.” In retrospect, the lack of concrete demands may mean that wasn’t quite the right way to think of it.

    It may or may not have been effective, but speaking more generally, I think there’s a different cost-benefit analysis or a different weight put on the trade-offs when you’re engaging in political protest. Pretty much by definition, any kind of public political action other than standing by the side of the road holding a sign is going to inconvenience somebody. It’s fair to ask if your protest will be effective enough to be worth inconveniencing people or who will be effected, but I don’t think you can say “don’t do it” just because it inconveniences people. (And my own experience was that the people who got mad usually were guys in nice suits and expensive cars in the Loop, and in the poorer neighborhoods we rode through, people were pretty friendly. Not data, but that was my experience.)

  67. 67
    PG says:

    Maia,

    It’s not a class analysis to say that people should have to pay money before they’re allowed to gather en-masse. If things are made harder for flash mobs, they’ll also be made harder for protesters, and particularly young PoC.

    Protest is analyzed differently (both morally and legally) because it’s core First Amendment activity. Also, why should protesting be messy? The usual reason for requiring permits for protests is to ensure police presence and avoid obstruction of traffic and other activities. If your protest requires leaving a bunch of trash on the ground for other people to pick up, I don’t care if it’s in support of my becoming president, I’m going to be pissed off.

    Random activities are great so long as they don’t impose externalities on other people. Go forth and dance in the parks, make goofy faces, reverse graffiti — it’s all good and does no harm. Do it regardless of whether you’re a white upper class college student who’s never worked a day, or a brown working class person who’s having a moment of fun on the way to the second shift. I still haven’t seen a good argument defending the imposition of externalities.

  68. 68
    nobody.really says:

    I find it ironic how the concerns for class have evaporated in this thread.

    * * *

    I go back and forth on graffiti. It’s not comparable to a shaving cream fight, because graffiti is permanent and destroys something, whereas shaving cream pretty much melts away if you wait a day.

    I find graffiti a relevant point of comparison here. 50+ comments venting over how burdensome and frivolous a pie fight is before anyone makes the obvious comparison to graffiti. Does that strike anyone else as curious?

    Perhaps it’s because the thread is titled, “When White Kids Have Spontaneous Fun, Working Class People of Color Left to Clean Up Their Shit.” Graffiti presumably involves pollution by working class people of color. Because the discussion was framed as pertaining to pollution left by affluent white people, it took a while for people to make the comparison.

    So, let’s make the comparison: Do working-class people of color have an easier time cleaning up the mess left by working-class people of color than messes left by affluent white people? In short, what do city workers think about cleaning up graffiti?

    (Admittedly, both graffiti and Flash Mobs are done anonymously, so take the assumptions about the socioeconomic status of the participants with a grain of salt.)

    People such as PG seem to regard this discussion are pertaining simply to the issue of pollution: People shouldn’t pollute, and certainly shouldn’t pollute gratuitously, regardless of socioeconomic status. I find that a perfectly compelling argument. And I don’t think that idea is what is animating this discussion.

    La Lubu has been especially articulate about her feelings about the Flash Mob. La Lubu, do you share the same feeling about graffiti? Or if a beat-up pickup truck full of laughing Hispanic guys drives by and splashes you, does that feel different than when affluent white people do it?

    In short, do the people who find the Flash Mob offensive find analogous behavior by working class people of color similarly offensive? Is this really a discussion of conduct, or of status?

  69. 69
    PG says:

    nobody.really,

    Because the discussion was framed as pertaining to pollution left by affluent white people, it took a while for people to make the comparison.

    You don’t think it has something to do with graffiti’s already being illegal? Even Shepard Fairey, a famous white artist, gets arrested for graffiti.

  70. 70
    nobody.really says:

    Because the discussion was framed as pertaining to pollution left by affluent white people, it took a while for people to make the comparison.

    You don’t think it has something to do with graffiti’s already being illegal?

    Is there any dispute that the littering engaged in by the Flash Mobs is already illegal?

    (On the other hand, there most definitely is a dispute that assembly without a permit is illegal. St. Paul, MN, did not have any permit requirements before the Republican National Convention came to town, and a lot of research went into the issue. It’s really murky.)

  71. 71
    PG says:

    nobody.really,

    There evidently were newspaper photographers around to take pictures of the event pictured above. Was anyone arrested? I find it unlikely that in a large public place in SF there were no cops in the area at all, especially as the people involved would be rather identifiable by the dollops of shaving cream on them even as they were leaving where it happened.

    Ant-graffiti laws seem to be enforced as much as they can be, mostly against poor POC (and folks like Fairey whose art actually becomes identifiable, so you don’t have to catch the perpetrator on the scene). Any anti-litter laws enforced against flash-mobbers?

  72. 72
    Sailorman says:

    Graffiti does have some very “non art” characteristics at times, including the fact that it can be related to gangs, etc. The graffiti laws probably reflect that to some degree.

    Graffiti is also often applied to private buildings, not just public ones. And it is quite expensive to remove (sandblasting) and/or requires painting over.

    But perhaps the real issue is that littering laws are essentially never enforced. If they were, most smokers would be in jail.

  73. 73
    La Lubu says:

    La Lubu has been especially articulate about her feelings about the Flash Mob. La Lubu, do you share the same feeling about graffiti? Or if a beat-up pickup truck full of laughing Hispanic guys drives by and splashes you, does that feel different than when affluent white people do it?

    Intereesting question. I wasn’t going to respond on this thread anymore, because most people here are pretty adamant about how flash mobs are highly disciplined and that no innocent bystanders are hurt or have their property or clothing vandalized, and that was just so far out of my realm of experience—-I saw the pictures and thought “frat boy stuff”, where instant, surprise damage and humiliation is exactly the point.

    But this question brings up a different point, one that may be a threadjack but is definitely related to the subject. I’ve never had a beat-up truck full of Latino guys, or any other person of color change lanes to splash me with muddy water, or throw shit at me from a moving vehicle. Only white people have done that, and from all appearances they were better off financially than I was. Nominally, I’m “white”, but my physical appearance can present as Latina (or Middle Eastern, depending on where I am) because I am black-haired, with dark brown eyes and olive skin. Italians and Sicilians aren’t rare where I live, but are still taken as kinda “quasi-white people” in my corner of Illinois. (It’s weird, and hard to explain. I’m not trying to deny white privilege here–I want to be clear on that. It’s just that along with the lessons I gave earlier from growing up, I also learned early on about race hatred, because a significant number of white parents of classmates wouldn’t let me play with their kids—and called me names and spread ugly rumors about me when I started going into puberty, whic I did at what they considered an early age. That happened in various places, and was a part of my formative experience, so my gut still reacts that way.)

    See, there is a pecking order of social status, and that pecking order is raced, also. When I look in the mirror, I see exactly what I am—a working class Sicilian woman. That’s what most everyone else sees me as too, except for those who see me as Latina (because the default for “white” appearance in this geographic area is taller and blonder—in New Jersey, I’d probably be universally seen as Italian/Sicilian). And that marks me, to people who are interested in exploiting that pecking order, in establishing their dominant position, as a safe target. Someone it’s cool to fuck with, because obviously I can’t do anything about it that is going to affect them. I translate that as being very similar to sexual harassment. There’s an old saying, “shit rolls downhill”, and when people higher on the scale get shit on by the people above them, they can in turn roll that shit on down. Not everyone does this, of course, but the lower yu are on the pecking scale, the more people can potentially shit on you—thus, the more you get shit on. Gratuitously disrespected, etc.

    For example, I was on a jobsite with a lot of traveling brothers. It was a Friday, so I offered to go to this little Sicilian place down the street for some parmigiana sandwiches for everyone. I called in the order, and walked down to get them. I walked passed some white guys in sharp suits with well-polished shoes (this was downtown). They were trying to decide which restaturant to go to. One of them looked at me with disdain (in my Carharrts, blue jeans, and beat-up work boots—my hardhat was back on the job), looked me up-and-down in the familiar way of assessing female appearance, and said, “There’s a lot of human garbage in this town.”

    Now, I hesitate to type that here, on this site. I know that if I said that the man said something about my tits, everyone here would believe me. But this was different. This wasn’t disrespect based on my sex (although that certainly played into it—they wouldn’t have dared say that out loud to one of my male coworkers), but disrespect based on class or even possibly “race” (if they perceived me as not white, which I can’t be sure of), and probably ethnicity (if they perceived me as a “lower” version of white). This isn’t a site where I feel comfortable talking about class.

    So, about the example of the Latino guys in the truck—I’d say I’m perceived differently by POC than I am by white people. I’ve had experiences of sexual harassment by men of all colors, but never a class-based, race-based, or ethnicity-based form of disrespect by a person of color. And the experiences I’ve had with sexual harassment by white men have taken a different tone, though I don’t know if I can articulate that in a way that most people here would understand. I will say that it was much scarier, and leave it at that.

    As for graffiti, that depends. Graffiti rund the gamut from “fuck you”, gang symbols, racist crap—-to beautiful murals. I’d be pissed off if someone sprayed a swastika on my fence, and would be out there quick to scrub it off. But if some really cool “wild style” or a mural went up, I’d leave it there. It’s not just the level of execution, but the intent behind it too.

    And that’s why I reacted the way I did to those photos. It looked to me like the intent was just to fuck things up, and not clean up afterwards. Leave the mess for “those people”. We base our snap assessments on our past experiences. Now you know a little bit more about mine.

  74. 74
    nobody.really says:

    I don’t know anything about the relative rates of enforcement of littering and graffiti laws. But I wouldn’t be surprised to learn that the former are enforced less rigorously than the latter; as everyone has acknowledged, graffiti is much more common, and much harder to clean up.

    Which brings us back (please) to my query: How does the offense you feel about the Flash Mob antics compare to the offense you feel about graffiti? If your sole concern is pollution, you’d presumably feel MORE strongly about graffiti; it’s a bigger problem by far. If your sole concern is conspicuous consumption, then you’d presumably feel less strongly about graffiti; it’s activity engaged in by (presumably) people of lower socioeconomic status, so even thought it’s arguably wasteful, there’s no hierarchy involved. I’m hoping this inquiry will help illuminate the real basis of people’s grievances.

  75. 75
    PG says:

    nobody.really,

    If your sole concern is pollution, you’d presumably feel MORE strongly about graffiti; it’s a bigger problem by far.

    I disagree. Graffiti creates only a visual mess. It doesn’t get on my clothes, cling to my shoes, clutter the sewers, etc. Graffiti is unauthorized public art (though it also can be related to gang activity). I see graffiti in the subway all the time and it doesn’t bother me beyond annoying my aesthetic sense. I’d much rather be on a subway car covered in graffiti (so long as it has fully dried and won’t come off onto my clothes) than on a subway car with someone, say, smoking.

  76. 76
    Elusis says:

    La Lubu:

    My issue is that you and others have set up straw men to attack, which 1) encourages pointless seething about things that don’t actually happen (attacking bystanders), 2) obscures thoughtful discussion of the valid point raised by the initial post here, and 3) obscures thoughtful discussion of other points raised such as ageism and classism inherent in the responses, and the positive as well as negative impacts of these gatherings/pranks/entertainments/flash mobs/whatever you call them.

  77. 77
    La Lubu says:

    Elusis, I have a few things to say in response. Let’s start with the first—your accusation of my comments as “obscuring thoughtful discussion.” (twice!) That’s middle-class codespeak for “Butt out, you don’t belong here.” In three words, you’ve managed to applaud folks who agree with you by intimating that they are “thoughtful”, insult the folks who don’t agree with you by implying our critiques are “thoughtless” and/or off-topic, while blithely ignoring the substance of our commentary. Brava! Three words, and a classic example of the indirect form of insult preferred by white middle class folks as polite conversation—what I like to call the “plausibly deniability” form of insult. (“what? I didn’t call you thoughtless! I merely said that people who hold your opinion are preventing thoughtful conversation from taking place!”) It’s one of the reasons I don’t comment much here anymore, and I used to like this place. Indirect hostility is tolerated to the point of brinkmanship around here, all in the name of “politeness”. Bah.

    Now, I’ve already conceded the near-military precision that these messy flash mob activities are carried out; I made the mistake of comparing them to similar activity that I have experienced from similar and/or identical demographic groups. I wasn’t aware, until RonF pointed it out, that a considerable amount of time elapsed before the festivities began, and that participants gave ample warning to passersby. I just saw the jackets in the photos, and figured because it was a warm day (I assume it was a warm day, since I didn’t see any heavy winter coats, gloves, or stocking caps) that the purpose of the jackets was for hiding the shaving cream until WHAM! an unsuspecting person could be nailed with a faceful. Sorry! Like I said before, I was projecting my previous experience with similar activities from similar groups of people on to this one.

    However, I disagree strongly with the idea that my comments have distracted from the original point of the post. First, because the original post consisted of two photos and some links, no commentary. That says to me that the post wasn’t intended for a narrow focus. Second, the author of the post has made several comments, most of which seem to point towards the view that these white kids are having a type of “fun” that comes at the expense of or inconvenience of predominantly people of color. I fail to see how in light of that, my comparisons to other destructive and/or wasteful and/or deliberately insulting forms of “fun” exercised by demographically similar people is “obscuring” discussion (oh yeah, just the “thoughtful”, meaning “people I agree with” discussion!).

    Speaking of classism, why do you think these people are dressing to the nines for these events, hmm? Go ahead, guess. Could it be that by wearing what appear to be expensive, formal clothes, they can use their white privilege to pass as middle class? Could it be that if they wore raggedy clothes while engaging in these activities, they would, I dunno, be arrested? In my neighborhood, much smaller groups of young people are routinely harassed by the police for just hanging out and talking to one another. What do you think would happen to a large group of predominantly young people of color who threw shaving cream at each other on the city streets, regardless of how they were dressed?

    Another disconnect I have with middle-class views is views on age. Where I come from, young people are expected to take on adult responsibilities from an early age. It’s considered a sign of respect if older people consider you to be mature for your age. I can guarantee that the young people in my neighborhood and in my family would see the same problems with the feathers and shaving cream as I do (“what a waste! what a mess? why?!” and “damn! if I tried that, I’d get busted!”). It wouldn’t occur to them that they could do anything like that without getting arrested.

    I find it ironic how the concerns for class have evaporated in this thread.

    Amp, you surprise me. I thought you knew better than this. Do you really think that if these kids were seen as working class that they would be treated with the same leniency by the city? Do you really think that the dressing up is about fashion, and not about avoiding police and other forms of trouble? Do you really think this is a type of fun that kids raised with a certain austerity in terms of material wealth would find fun? And if so, why aren’t we seeing all this flash mob action out here in the Rust Belt?

  78. 78
    Maia says:

    Elusis – I think La Luba has explained where she was coming from, to accuse her of setting up straw men, rather than just having different assumptions, ideas and experiences, is unfair.

    Thanks a lot for your post La Luba – what those men said is horrific but not uncommon. Someone I know wrote of working as a cleaner in the university and two academics ran into each other early in the morning and write in front of him they said “I didn’t expect to see anyone else here this early in the morning.” The idea that some people are non-people or human garbage has many different forms, and the invisible cleaning pixies is one of them.

  79. 79
    Julie says:

    How does the offense you feel about the Flash Mob antics compare to the offense you feel about graffiti?

    I know my reaction is different from other people’s, but to me, graffiti is a deliberate attempt to change public space, while I strongly suspect that the feathers and shaving cream messes stem from pure obliviousness – the assumption that it’ll get cleaned up, not that you or someone you know will have to clean it up. In other words, a graffiti artist wants her/his work to stay there, but the flash mob doesn’t want Powell St. to remain covered in shaving cream. I don’t think the flash mob participants would have been so cavalier about it if they were the ones who would have to haul out the buckets and mops later. I know they supposedly had a cleanup plan, but the pictures and article are evidence that it wasn’t taken very seriously. Because, again, whatever they didn’t clean up would get cleaned up by someone else.

    Obviously one isn’t better than the other (although I do like graffiti that has a political or artistic purpose), but that’s why I don’t think this situation is closely related to graffiti.

  80. 80
    Ampersand says:

    Julie, this particular flash mob took place in San Francisco. The cleanup plan, assuming they had one (as is likely), was probably to pick up the paper plates and the worse of the mess, and then wait for the rain to wash away the rest. Which, in SF, would mean waiting a day.

    There isn’t any reason to think that anyone at all “hauled out the buckets and mops.” As Maia pointed out, the photo above shows someone about to empty out the recycling and/or trash bin; that happens regardless of flash mobs.

    Regarding Critical Mass, I agree that it’s hard to see what concrete victory is accomplished by the bike rides, but that’s true of 99.99% of political demonstrations. I think the hope is that such demonstrations are doing some incremental good — by raising issues, raising consciousness, letting people blow off steam, and fighting people’s feelings that they’re isolated and alone in caring about these issues.

    I think those goods are worthwhile enough to justify causing a traffic slowdown now and then — even if the good they do can’t be pointed to and quantified.

    * * *

    I think I see the pillow fight to be closer to graffiti than the shaving cream fight, although I do see the distinction that you (Julie) make. But the pillow fight and graffiti are similar in that both really cause a lot of damage, that will cost a great deal of money and effort to clean up.

    I think that a lot of the difference in views on this thread may be about how difficult people think a shaving cream fight is to clean up after. As I recall (from summer camp), they really require very little clean-up (unless they’re done indoors).

  81. 81
    Ampersand says:

    La Luba, do you honestly see no class issues in people suggesting, in essence, that those who want to have fun in the public square should have to pay thousands of dollars for permits, and possibly pay for lawyers to shepherd them through the process, like the people who run parades do?

    If you can’t see the class concerns in that, then I can’t explain them to you.

    I certainly agree with you that there’s major race privilege going on here; a primarily-black group of kids couldn’t act this way without having to worry much more about police abuse. And there are class issues going on, too, although I think there’s some complexity there — I don’t think cops crack down as hard on white kids of any class playing in the streets. (When I was a kid in working-class Queens, adults would routinely open up fire hydrants for us to play in on hot days, and older kids would play ball games on the less-busy streets. In retrospect, it seems odd to me that this was tolerated, but it was.) This may vary a lot by region, too. And of course, my experience might have been a neighborhood anomaly, or a New York anomaly.

    * * *

    I think it may well be true that no one in your neighborhood would participate in a flash mob; that doesn’t mean that no one from your neighborhood would. Most people take some of their personal sense of propriety from where they were raised, and some of it from where they are now. People’s sense of the right way to behave mainly comes from how the people around them behave.

    So someone being raised in a small, heavily Christian Maine town might firmly believe that homosexuality is wrong; that same person might attend PSU for four years and come away firmly believing that thinking homosexuality is wrong, is bigoted.

    If I’m reading you correctly, you’re assuming that if you take a cross-section of a flash mob, none of the kids there would come from a neighborhood similar to yours. I think you’re probably mistaken about that; I think lots of kids from working-class neighborhoods wouldn’t see anything wrong with a shaving-cream fight, if the people around them for a good while didn’t see anything wrong with it, either.

    I also agree that there are major cultural differences between San Francisco and the rust belt — but those differences aren’t totally encompassed or explained by class. There are other differences, too. Plus, I’m not so sure that rust belt states never have Flash mobs — do you really think there’s never been one in (say) Cleveland or Columbus?

    It’s one of the reasons I don’t comment much here anymore, and I used to like this place. Indirect hostility is tolerated to the point of brinkmanship around here, all in the name of “politeness”. Bah.

    Well, it’s a good thing you would never type anything that’s indirectly hostile to the people here, such as… you know, me and the other people who run, as you call it, “this place.”

  82. 82
    Elusis says:

    La Luba – my apologies if my use of the term “thoughtful” implied that I didn’t think other positions were thoughtful, or other topic could be thoughtfully discussed. That was not my intent, and I’m sorry that implication came through.

    I appreciate that you’ve clarified that your initial responses came from experiences you’ve had, experiences which, if I haven’t been clear, I think are the result of despicable entitlement, privilege, contempt for others (especially those who have been “othered”), and base jackassery on the part of the people who’ve humiliated or hurt you. I think it’s terrible those things happened to you, and happen to others, and trust me, as a fat woman, I get the connection between dominating behavior from others and structures of privilege.

    But I stand by my feeling that the responses making assumptions about the age, class, belief systems, and actions of the people pictured have been harmful, because there *is* a significant class/race concern worth talking about, and there *have* been a great deal of age-ism and classism come up in the objections to the events under discussion. But we haven’t been able to have that conversation becasue we keep circling back around to attacks on the people who (are assumed to be) engage(ing) in them, attacks which a small amount of research could quickly dispel.

    And I think that while it’s important to acknowledge how sometimes people with privilege go out of their way to harm people at the margins, this is not one of those cases. I also think that while it’s important to acknowledge how “people having fun” can wind up equating with “costly problem for a city’s budget,” it’s also important to really examine that concern in a way that looks at costs and benefits.

    And ultimately, I’m frustrated because I wish I could point people who are part of this prankster subculture to this blog post and say “look, here is a conversation about how at least some of these gatherings impact the community, and this is something that needs to be more carefully considered because these are really important points.” But instead, if I linked here, the points would just get dismissed because there’s so many comments here talking about things that don’t happen at these gatherings, that never happened, that aren’t part of the ethos of such events. As such, Colin at Catcubed’s post is, thus far, one of the few public spaces where I’ve seen contemplation about the ethics of participating in the pillow fight and a call to make “Leave No Trace” a part of other future events, and even there, the race/class analysis isn’t really a part of the discussion.

    It seems like the suggestion that people involved *could* have possibly been engaging in deliberately assholish behavior has taken up far more space than discussions of what they were *actually* doing.

  83. 83
    Sailorman says:

    Could it be that by wearing what appear to be expensive, formal clothes, they can use their white privilege to pass as middle class?

    You are sure, are you, that it’s an issue of whiteness instead of an issue of class, hmm? Or of “being in college and doing collegiately random things” (my guess) or of about eighteen other reasonably potential factors?

    Square peg. Round hole. Doesn’t fit.

  84. 84
    PG says:

    Sailorman,

    If “being in college” is the predictive factor here, I’m really worried about how few people of color appear to be in college in the San Fran area. They photographed a couple dozen people, and the only identifiably brown person participating in fun instead of cleanup was the same woman in a purple dress who was photographed two or three times. If that’s proportionate to POC’s presence at SF colleges, yikes.

  85. 85
    Ampersand says:

    SM, I still think white privilege may have been at play here. There is a big difference, socially and (I suspect) in terms of the likely reaction from people around you, and the cops, between a mostly-nonwhite group, and a mostly-white group. That at least one of the kids playing was black doesn’t change that.

    But as for the use of “expensive” (almost certainly not) formal clothes, I think that was mainly about how much funnier it is to have an unexpected pie fight in formal clothes than in t-shirts.

  86. 86
    Julie says:

    The cleanup plan, assuming they had one (as is likely), was probably to pick up the paper plates and the worse of the mess, and then wait for the rain to wash away the rest. Which, in SF, would mean waiting a day.

    There isn’t any reason to think that anyone at all “hauled out the buckets and mops.” As Maia pointed out, the photo above shows someone about to empty out the recycling and/or trash bin; that happens regardless of flash mobs.

    But the other photos at SF Gate show the sidewalk almost completely coated in it; the captions describe it as “slippery” and show one of the participants having just slipped on it. I think that gives us sufficient reason to believe that someone cleaned it up, rather than leave it for a day for passersby to hurt themselves on.

  87. 87
    La Lubu says:

    Apology accepted, Elusis, and thank you for clarifying. You raise several good points.

    See, I come from the world of labor unions, and one of the main points that is literally drilled into us at every conference, every union meeting, every labor council gathering, every steward’s class—-is Perception is Everything. If I’ve heard the BA (Business Agent, the elected official whose full-time job it is to run the Local; larger Locals usually say Business Manager for the top dog, and his or her assistants are called “Business Agents”, but mine is a smaller Local of only 800 or so members—we say “BA” because “BM” just doesn’t have the same ring, if you know what I mean! ;-) say, “Perception is Everything” once, I’ve heard it a million times. Only 7% of the population in the U.S. belongs to a union, and we’re the underdog in more ways than just the numbers. We have a negative image, we don’t control or have any influence in media that can help change that image, so the message is emphasized to the members that we have to change our image both individually and collectively. To not do so only hurts us.

    So. I’m not tied into this network you describe, for any number of reasons (most of which have to do with geography and age). I see some pictures on a website, and think, “WTF?!” And yes, make snap judgements about what’s going on. I know that my reaction, though inaccurate, is hardly an uncommon one.

    Now, imagine that along with the invite to the event, participants were encouraged to bring along a box or can of food to donate to a local food bank. I know that would have completely changed my perception of the event; I wouldn’t have leapt to the conclusion that the participants were basically playing a version of surprise dodgeball. It wouldn’t have seemed like an out-of-control event, but an organized event instead, and one that was doing something good rather than just making a mess. The tone is changed.

    It was almost twenty years ago when image-changing started being talked about in my Local. It was a radical idea—actively countering the image assassination of media, business and government entities that were/are actively anti-union was seen as “kissing ass” by some people. But I thought radical was exactly the right word for it. Going back to the old-school methods of the original organizers, the ones who hopped freight trains and walked tracks, sat around campfires at work camps, hung out in the taverns and diners, got up on soapboxes on the corners. They met the people where they were already. That’s the attitude and action that built the labor movement. I saw my Local as having become a “country club” Local (yeah, that’s part of the lingo!) that took the successes of the original members for granted, that ignored the changes of the growing anti-union sentiment as if it were a passing phase rather than a serious threat. Man, when I saw the I.O. (International Office) start programs and drive home the wake-up message, I thought, “it’s about damn time!” See, changing our image was never about trying to change our perception by employers or the powers that be (which is how those who saw it as ass-kissing were interpreting it); it’s about changing our image with our natural allies. One of the first rules of organizing is Don’t Alienate Potential Allies.

    I don’t know what the end purpose is for the flash mobs. But the organizers are missing out on a grand opportunity to change their perception by not thinking about the after-effects of the planned activities, or how subtle changes to how they operate could change how they’re viewed. I mean, who gives a damn how I see things; I’m not a local person. But I’d find it hard to believe that there wasn’t a hell of a lot of local people who shared my original perception, and whose minds could be changed. Look, if you can get a hundred people to show up somewhere and do something, that’s power. Don’t just squander it!

    Amp, I’m sorry if you were offended by my use of the term, “this place”. Should I have said, “this site?” “this website?” “this blog?” I don’t know. I’ve just noticed a distinct change in the tone of conversation here, in a way that makes me feel unwelcome. And yes, I know that’s my problem. That’s why I mostly just stay away. I still feel that if the flash mobs took out a permit it would show some respect. Permits aren’t really designed to cover the cost to the city of an event. In my city, it costs $50 to throw a block party that closes down a street for eight hours (as long as it isn’t a fire route). I looked on the SF website to see if it really cost thousands for a permit, but I didn’t see “block party” (which is the nearest description I think would fit what the flash mobs are doing). A “One Night Dance” is $46, and a “One Time Event” is $272, but those seemed like things designed for businesses, not non-profit community groups, and for indoor events that create noise (more noise than usual) to neighbors rather than outdoor events during times when a certain amount of street noise is going to exist anyway. (There’s some pdf files I could probably read, but I’m on dial-up so that would take all night). I don’t think that’s too onerous a charge.

  88. 88
    Ampersand says:

    Amp, I’m sorry if you were offended by my use of the term, “this place”. Should I have said, “this site?” “this website?” “this blog?”

    It wasn’t the term, it was the tone.

    I’ve just noticed a distinct change in the tone of conversation here, in a way that makes me feel unwelcome.

    I’m sorry for that. But you know the main thing I’ve changed about my moderation? In response to criticism from many folks (you included, iirc), I now moderate far, far less than I did several years ago, when you participated more. It’s probably been years since I mentioned the word “civility.” And we’ve made conservatives and anti-feminists far less welcome here than they used to be.

    So isn’t it ironic that you like it less now?

    * * *

    That’s a fair point about these events being cheaper to permit than I had imagined — thanks for the info.

    I do wonder, though, if it’s possible for events that have no hierarchal organization to manage something like that; and if not, if it’s really better for progressives to say that non-hierarchical gatherings shouldn’t exist at all?

  89. 89
    PG says:

    Why not have non-hierarchical gatherings where people clean up after themselves instead of expecting others (whether embodied by the local government or not) to do it? If the shaving cream event had ended with some folks who could afford it volunteering to bring in hoses and pay for water usage from a nearby building, they could have hosed down the area after the event. It’s just the idea that other people clean up after you, or that a mess magically disappears, that bothers me and seems childish in an annoying rather than delightful way. You can pay your way with labor and time as well as money (e.g. encourage people to patronize the nearby restaurant that lends you water for cleanup). Indeed, in most of the explicitly non-hierarchical events I’ve attended, contributing labor has been important.

  90. 90
    chingona says:

    I do wonder, though, if it’s possible for events that have no hierarchal organization to manage something like that; and if not, if it’s really better for progressives to say that non-hierarchical gatherings shouldn’t exist at all?

    The last thing I would want is for non-hierarchical gatherings to cease to exist. The idea of a flash mob getting a permit offends my sensibilities. But like Elusis said, adopt a “leave no trace” ethic, clean up your own mess, choose activities or performances that will result in less debris, etc. This can come from within the community. It doesn’t have to be imposed by the government.

  91. 91
    Ampersand says:

    The thing is, looking at those photos, it seems to me that it was cleaned up. The amount of shaving cream left is minimal; looking at the bricks, the only way you can tell it was absolutely coated in mounds of shaving cream is that the bricks are a bit shiney with dampness, and there’s still white in the crevices. And yes, there’s some on the trash can that whoever cleaned up missed (which is one reason that was an attractive angle for a photographer to take a photo from).

    A city isn’t nature; “leave no trace” is an ethic that makes sense for parks and the wild, but in a city what’s the harm with leaving a trace, if it doesn’t hurt anyone and if the “trace” will evaporate or be rained away within a day?

    I continue to feel that people are bending over backwards to find any possible reason to criticize an apparently harmless activity.

  92. 92
    La Lubu says:

    I do wonder, though, if it’s possible for events that have no hierarchal organization to manage something like that; and if not, if it’s really better for progressives to say that non-hierarchical gatherings shouldn’t exist at all?

    Well, they could set up persons on site to take a donation of $1 or so. I’d say it depends on the activity as to whether a permit should be sought, just using some common-sense dictates: is it going to create more mess or more disruption than a random crowd? is there going to be a need for more trash barrels? could it disrupt emergency vehicles from getting through the street? Then a permit should be obtained. If it’s only going to attract a moderate crowd, won’t block streets, isn’t going to make a mess—basically, isn’t any different from random street scenes (albeit with somewhat more people), then no.

    Permits tend to be a nominal charge when it comes to noncommercial activity (they tend to be higher for for-profit activities, especially if alcohol is served)—it’s more to alert the city as to “hey, set out some more trash barrels” and/or “pick up the trash barrels; they’ll be full”. Again, it’s about perception—-getting the same permit that nonprofits have to get (and again, maybe SF has a special rate for them, or even waives the fee for non-business related stuff) says to the rest of the general public, “we’re not just taking, we’re giving, too.” I see it as an act of respect; if you have a reasonable belief that your group activity is going to be more burden than usual to the rest of the community, then you have an obligation to do your part to mitigate that.

    Sometimes, it doesn’t quite work out that way, because a larger than normal crowd turns out. The Soulard Mardi Gras in St. Louis started out with a relative handful of friends (many of whom were musicians) who thought it would be cool to bar-hop in the form of a fake jazz funeral (yes, there was a coffin, no, there was no body in it). The reactions at the neighborhood bars varied from amusement to “get the hell out of my bar”, but over time, it grew way beyond its origins. Then one unseasonably warm year (it was 72 degrees or something like that—I just remember it was 70-something, and hot for February!), over 100,000 people turned out for the parade. There was a lot of controversy that year! It morphed from casual fun into something much larger. I could see where that could happen to a flash mob event, too.

    The thing is—what is a gathering for? Is it meant to be public? Is it meant to encourage public participation? If so, then strong efforts should be made to accommodate the public, and send the message that “this is for you, too.” Or am I reading this wrong—-are flash mobs meant to be exclusive, and not encourage public participation, just those in the loop?

  93. 93
    La Lubu says:

    The last thing I would want is for non-hierarchical gatherings to cease to exist. The idea of a flash mob getting a permit offends my sensibilities.

    Why? I’m not being catty; I truly don’t understand.

    It’s been awhile since I’ve been an active member in the local blues club, but we’d put on concerts, hosted “Blue Mondays”, and got some funding from grants to put on free public concerts in city parks (as well as the “Blues in the Schools” program). Now, in order to get grants, you do have to have some formal hierarchical structure, but really—in practice—it’s very informal. It’s hierarchy on paper only. On the ground, it’s a small collection of worker bees with no queen. The newsletter is still created by volunteer effort (not by paid professionals), and it’s still mailed by (1) gathering at someone’s house or apartment, (2) bringing wine or other beverages, and (3) folding and sorting to get the bulk mailing rate. We get permits, but not because Big Brother is breathing down our backs, but because we can serve our members and the general public better when we have adequate city services (like trash cans, clean toilets or port-a-johns at the park, working running water, electric drops, etc.). That $50 permit doesn’t cover the costs of those items as much as it’s a nominal fee to help the city budget; the permit process is just an application that alerts as to what day/time the services are needed.

    I guess I see the permit process more as “insuring needed city services are there, in adequate amounts” (hey, in my city, there’s no guarantee the public restrooms at a park will be in working order or stocked with T.P., but if you’re going to hold a public event, then they will be!). I don’t see it as selling out.

  94. 94
    chingona says:

    Why? I’m not being catty; I truly don’t understand.

    Cause it’s supposed to be spontaneous. Obviously, it’s planned to some extent because someone comes up with the idea and the time and the place, but it’s not an event that’s put on by some people for other people. It’s this thing that just happens and then it’s gone.

    The other reason I worry about the permits is that some places may be really reasonable about it, but other places would not. I know that in my city, if they tried to get a permit for something like this, the city would want the organizers to carry liability insurance in case someone slipped on the shaving cream. No liability insurance – no permit. The demands the city would make would kill the whole thing.

  95. 95
    chingona says:

    The thing is, looking at those photos, it seems to me that it was cleaned up.

    Sure it was, by the city workers.

    A city isn’t nature; “leave no trace” is an ethic that makes sense for parks and the wild, but in a city what’s the harm with leaving a trace, if it doesn’t hurt anyone and if the “trace” will evaporate or be rained away within a day?

    That’s the case for the shaving cream. It’s not the case for the feathers, and it’s the feathers that has the city ready to crack down on the flash mobs. I know you already said the pillow fight was a mistake, and I’m sure they didn’t realize so many pillows would break open and cause such a mess. But nonetheless, there it is. Perhaps we can find some middle ground between “leave no trace” and “clog up the sewers with feathers” that involves some conscientiousness and some cleaning up after selves on the part of the participants.

    I’m not hating on fun stuff. I like fun stuff. Just … enjoy responsibly.

  96. 96
    Maia says:

    La Luba – I really like your contributions to threads on this blog, and I’m really sad that your posting less.

    I have quite different experiences of city permits than you do. Which is unsuprising given that we’re half a world away. But I mostly organise with groups that have a policy of not getting permits for demos (it’s been years and years since I or anyone I know has got a permit). I think the questions you ask about permits are a lot about people’s relationship with the city, and the city governance. So I’ll leave it by saying there are heaps of reasons why people may not want to or feel able to deal with city or city governance when organising an event. Some of those reasons may be about relative priviledge, but they could just as easily not be.

    I see people being able to meet collectively and do something together and it not be commodified, it not have a commercial nature as being a really good thing. My experience of city government is not benign, so I don’t see their desire to regulate gatherings as being simply about meeting people’s needs, but about control.

    Or to look at it another way:

    Could it be that by wearing what appear to be expensive, formal clothes, they can use their white privilege to pass as middle class? Could it be that if they wore raggedy clothes while engaging in these activities, they would, I dunno, be arrested? In my neighborhood, much smaller groups of young people are routinely harassed by the police for just hanging out and talking to one another. What do you think would happen to a large group of predominantly young people of color who threw shaving cream at each other on the city streets, regardless of how they were dressed?

    This is actually where I have a problem with the way the term ‘privilege’ is used. Because I want all young people to be left alone by the cops. I want people to be able to meet in small groups and large. If white kids stop meeting in large groups because they realise that black kids can’t meet in those ways doesn’t make anything better.

    Yes the only reason these kids can have a shaving cream fight is because . But I’m fighting for a world where anyone who wants to can have shaving cream fights (that’s not all I want in that world, but the time and space to have fun together is a large part of what I want), as long as they clean up after themselves. I don’t think bitching about people who want to and can have shaving cream fights now helps bring about that world.

  97. 97
    Ampersand says:

    What Maia said! (To some degree. I think that city rules can be both, sometimes simultaneously. But they’re certainly not an unmitigated good.)

    (I also agree that it’s sad La Luba Lubu (I’m sorry, La Lubu!) doesn’t post here often anymore. But, of course, if the blog doesn’t have what LL wants….)

    Chingona:

    The thing is, looking at those photos, it seems to me that it was cleaned up.

    Sure it was, by the city workers.

    Just to clarify, how do you know that? Was that said in the article?

    And I totally agree with you about the pillowfight. Actually, I have little sympathy for them at all, since this is apparently a problem that’s been going on for a while. The first time it’s a funny idea gone wrong; the third time, it’s just being jerks.

    They’re really ruining flash mobs for everyone, if the result of the pillowfight’s damages is a city crackdown.

  98. 98
    chingona says:

    The article is almost entirely about the feathers. All I have on the shaving cream is the photo of the city worker.

    In terms of permits, re-reading the article, the city was pretty explicit about what they want:

    Kern said officials want the organizers of such events to follow standard procedure: apply for a permit, pay a use fee (at least $1,750 for the plaza) and supply security, portable toilets and cleanup crews.

    I don’t think a flash mob could do this and still be a flash mob.

    Edited to add: Just saw your additional comments on the pillow fight. It said the invite asked everyone to clean up after themselves, but it also said this pillow fight attracted way more people than previous ones and went on a lot longer. It’s not unusual to have a hard time maintaining a certain kind of ethic when a group gets a big influx of new people.

  99. 99
    Maia says:

    Chingoa – Just on the issue of the cleaning up. As I said earlier in the thread. If you look at the photos what the worker in the photo Jack posted was doing was changing the rubbish bag. We’ve no idea if he did this at the end of cleaning up all the mess left over, or after the mess had been cleaned up by the participants, or (as I’m thinking is most likely) a bit of both.

    I think part of the problem with this thread is that we don’t have a lot of concrete information, but we have a lot of images. People with different experiences make quite different assumptions about the images and what happened.

    La Lubu – I just noticed I’ve been reading your name wrong in my head so spelling it wrong presumably for ages. I’m so sorry.

    I do so appreciate it when your post, because it’s awesome to have another unionist perspective, particularly someone whose experience of unions is so different from mine. I’m really tempted to take the thread on a total derail and talk about the issue of image being everything with unions, but I won’t do that yet.

  100. 100
    nobody.really says:

    I think part of the problem with this thread is that we don’t have a lot of concrete information, but we have a lot of images. People with different experiences make quite different assumptions about the images and what happened.

    Exactly. Except that it’s not the problem with this thread; it’s the glory of it.

    This topic is a Rorschach Test: We see ambiguous images and project our hopes and fears onto them. And, for me, that’s the value of it. The point is not to argue about whether this ink blot REALLY IS a pony, but to reflect on what about me causes me to project thoughts about a pony onto the ink blot. Confronting me with actual FACTS about the situation is only useful to the extent that they force me to realize that the hopes and fears I’m projecting onto the situation do not, in fact, arise from the situation – but rather arise from me.

    Thus I was conflicted by the objection that La Lubu was creating a “straw man” argument about the Flash Mob antics – that is, an argument based on assumptions that are not supported by the evidence. I don’t mean that I found the objection to be inaccurate; I mean that I found it to be incomplete. I suspect that we’re ALL responding to the images by creating straw men arguments in our heads about what the situation means. I found La Lubu noteworthy only because she expresses her thoughts so well. (And I’ll be especially sad if she started withholding her well-expressed thoughts from us.)

    And now I’m feeling chagrined that La Lubu is feeling rejection because she was willing to accept my invitation to share more of her feelings. Chagrined, and a bit cowardly, because I’ve held my own cards pretty close to my chest.

    So, for what it’s worth, here are one white, white-collar, male’s hopes and fears: I feel the need to guard myself both from those above and below me in the social hierarchy. From those above me, I live with frustrating demands for mindless conformity, and anxiety that my tentative efforts at non-conformity with provoke their ire and unknown consequences. Beneath those fears lie the deeper fears that authority figures aren’t demanding mindless conformity, they are in fact demanding a kind of excellence that I can’t even recognize, let alone provide. From those below me, I fear attack that I’m selfishly concerned with my own problems and insufficiently concerned with their much bigger problems.

    So I see this Flash Mob thing, and I think, “These guys are my heros!” I identify with them. Then I read people’s reactions saying that, in effect, they’re just a bunch of spoiled brats demonstrating complete indifference to the burdens they put on people who are already too burdened. And I get defensive.

    Defense No. 1: “No they’re not! The FACTS show that they’re not burdening anybody! Or, at least, you complainers haven’t proven that the FACTS show otherwise! You’re just letting your emotions run away with you.”

    Defense No. 2: “There’s no class/race dynamic here. They got those clothes at a second-hand store! Or, at least, you complainers haven’t proven that the facts show otherwise!! You’re just letting your emotions run away with you.”

    Defense No. 3: “The Flash Mobsters aren’t burdening working-class people any more than the antics of working-class people burden working-class people! So you’re efforts to impute a class dynamic to this discussion merely reflect your own self-consciousness about class!! You’re just letting your emotions run away with you.”

    Now, I don’t mean to deny that facts are relevant to the issue of the merits of Flash Mob antics, or that people’s reactions aren’t emotion-driven. But I mean to suggest that my own reactions are just as emotion-laden; I’m just not as brave or articulate as La Lubu in expressing it.