{"id":13518,"date":"2011-06-19T08:16:06","date_gmt":"2011-06-19T15:16:06","guid":{"rendered":"http:\/\/www.amptoons.com\/blog\/?p=13518"},"modified":"2011-06-19T08:16:06","modified_gmt":"2011-06-19T15:16:06","slug":"reply-to-george-iii-stop-sneaking-in-your-conclusion","status":"publish","type":"post","link":"https:\/\/amptoons.com\/blog\/?p=13518","title":{"rendered":"Reply to George:  III. Stop Sneaking in Your Conclusion!"},"content":{"rendered":"<p><em>[This post is part of a series analyzing Robert George&#8217;s widely-read article, &#8220;<a href=\"http:\/\/papers.ssrn.com\/sol3\/papers.cfm?abstract_id=1722155\" target=\"_blank\">What is Marriage<\/a>&#8220;, which appeared on pages 245-286 of the Harvard Journal of Law and Public Policy. You can view all posts in the series <a href=\"http:\/\/www.amptoons.com\/blog\/category\/george-what-is-marriage\/\" target=\"_blank\">here<\/a>.]<\/em><\/p>\n<p><em><strong>Page 246: In which Robert George sets up the argument in a way we cannot accept.<\/strong><\/em><\/p>\n<p><strong><span style=\"text-decoration: underline;\">George tries to sneak his conclusion into his reasoning.<\/span><\/strong><\/p>\n<p>Robert George opens his article by making a fundamental distinction\u00a0\u2014 one that we should not let him make.\u00a0 He writes:<\/p>\n<blockquote><p>What is marriage?<\/p>\n<p>Consider two competing views:<\/p>\n<p>Conjugal View: Marriage is the union of a man and a woman who make a permanent and exclusive commitment to each other of the type that is naturally (inherently) fulfilled by bearing and rearing children together. The spouses seal (consummate) and renew their union by conjugal acts\u2014acts that constitute the behavioral part of the process of reproduction, thus uniting them as a reproductive unit. Marriage is valuable in itself, but its inherent orientation to the bearing and rearing of children contributes to its distinctive structure, including norms of monogamy and fidelity. This link to the welfare of children also helps explain why marriage is important to the common good and why the state should recognize and regulate it.<\/p>\n<p>Revisionist View: Marriage is the union of two people (whether of the same sex or of opposite sexes) who commit to romantically loving and caring for each other and to sharing the burdens and benefits of domestic life. It is essentially a union of hearts and minds, enhanced by whatever forms of sexual intimacy both partners find agreeable. The state should recognize and regulate marriage because it has an interest in stable romantic partnerships and in the concrete needs of spouses and any children they may choose to rear.<\/p><\/blockquote>\n<p>In the last entry, I took issue with George\u2019s opening sentence, and now I take issue with his second:\u00a0 <em>why are these views <strong>competing<\/strong> views? <\/em>The \u201crevisionist\u201d view can contain and include the \u201cconjugal\u201d view. As he describes them, instead of being mutually exclusive:<\/p>\n<div id=\"attachment_4331\" style=\"width: 355px\" class=\"wp-caption alignnone\"><a href=\"http:\/\/wakingupnow.com\/blog\/wp-content\/uploads\/2011\/02\/competing.png\"><img loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" aria-describedby=\"caption-attachment-4331\" class=\"size-full wp-image-4331\" title=\"competing\" src=\"http:\/\/wakingupnow.com\/blog\/wp-content\/uploads\/2011\/02\/competing.png\" alt=\"\" width=\"345\" height=\"148\" \/><\/a><p id=\"caption-attachment-4331\" class=\"wp-caption-text\">Figure 1: Competing views<\/p><\/div>\n<p>\u2026they look like this:<\/p>\n<div id=\"attachment_4332\" style=\"width: 293px\" class=\"wp-caption alignnone\"><a href=\"http:\/\/wakingupnow.com\/blog\/wp-content\/uploads\/2011\/02\/enclosed.png\"><img loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" aria-describedby=\"caption-attachment-4332\" class=\"size-full wp-image-4332\" title=\"enclosed\" src=\"http:\/\/wakingupnow.com\/blog\/wp-content\/uploads\/2011\/02\/enclosed.png\" alt=\"\" width=\"283\" height=\"236\" \/><\/a><p id=\"caption-attachment-4332\" class=\"wp-caption-text\">Figure 2: Compatible views<\/p><\/div>\n<p>Do you see what George has done here? Once you realize the second picture is the accurate picture, then logically there\u2019s only one way these views are \u201ccompeting,\u201d and that\u2019s if the conjugal view is the <em>only<\/em> correct view &#8212; that is, if anything falling outside it isn\u2019t \u201creal marriage.\u201d <strong><em>But that\u2019s the very thing he\u2019s setting out to prove!<\/em><\/strong> In other words, by calling them competing views, he\u2019s asking you to accept his conclusion even before he makes his argument. \u00a0In fact, he\u2019s sneaking his conclusion into the very <em>beginning<\/em> of his argument. We call that circular reasoning.<\/p>\n<p>[By the way, our opponents engage in this either\/or mistake all the time. They call themselves supporters of traditional marriage, as if we don&#8217;t support it, too. They don&#8217;t realize that the very phrase &#8220;marriage equality&#8221; means we support opposite-sex marriage <em>exactly as much<\/em> as we do same-sex marriage.]<br \/>\n<!--more--><\/p>\n<p>Perhaps this is just a tiny logic trap. Perhaps George could escape it by rewriting his conjugal description as:<\/p>\n<blockquote><p>Marriage <strong><em>can only be<\/em><\/strong> the union of a man and a woman who make a permanent and exclusive commitment to each other of the type that is naturally (inherently) fulfilled by bearing and rearing children together.<\/p><\/blockquote>\n<p>But perhaps he knows he would lose his audience right away if he said <em>only<\/em> couples who bear <em>and<\/em> rear children can have marriages that are \u201cfulfilled.&#8221; Here\u2019s a case where George\u2019s reasoning, careful as it may turn out to be, doesn\u2019t match the experience of real-life married couples.<\/p>\n<p>Ultimately, nothing in the revisionist view excludes the conjugal view. The second figure simply recognizes that children play a key role in many but not all marriages. This doesn\u2019t mean that revisionists are holding up a sign that says, \u201cStop! No children allowed.\u201d These views are \u201ccompeting\u201d only because George claims they are. If you reject that claim (as I do), you\u2019ll see many of George\u2019s later arguments fall apart.<\/p>\n<p><strong><span style=\"text-decoration: underline;\">&#8220;Which ones?&#8221;\u00a0&#8212; A digression.<\/span><\/strong><\/p>\n<p>We&#8217;ve <a href=\"http:\/\/wakingupnow.com\/blog\/reply-to-george-ii-dont-get-ahead-of-yourself\" target=\"_blank\">already<\/a> talked about George&#8217;s rationalist, almost Platonic approach to the question, &#8220;What is marriage?&#8221;\u00a0 It shows itself here.\u00a0\u00a0Is it true that marriage is the type of relationship that is naturally (inherently) fulfilled by bearing and rearing children together?\u00a0That sort of claim is absolute and certain.\u00a0 It&#8217;s hard to know how to go about evaluating it.<\/p>\n<p>Unless, of course, we move our focus to the real world and ask instead, <em>Are <strong>marriage<span style=\"text-decoration: underline;\">s<\/span><\/strong> naturally (inherently) fulfilled by bearing and rearing children together?<\/em><\/p>\n<p>And the answer to that will be:\u00a0 Which ones?<\/p>\n<p>Some marriages are fulfilled by kids.\u00a0 Some are broken by\u00a0them.\u00a0 In some marriages, one child fulfills the marriage and another tears it apart.<\/p>\n<p>Some married couples don&#8217;t want kids at all.\u00a0 Others were happy to raise to children for a couple decades,\u00a0and then are happy to send them out into the world, regaining\u00a0a measure of\u00a0privacy and intimacy; such couples have marriages that were fulfilled by raising children and now are fulfilled by not doing so.<\/p>\n<p>And none of this helped by George&#8217;s definition of <em>fulfilled<\/em> as it appears in footnote 18:\u00a0&#8220;That is, made even richer as the kind of reality it is.&#8221;<\/p>\n<p>I&#8217;ll come back to the vagueness and circularity of <em>that<\/em> later.<\/p>\n<p>All of these observations are empirical, of course.\u00a0 George wouldn&#8217;t approve: he&#8217;d probably say this is all based on circumstance rather than principle, and he only cares about principles.\u00a0 But George&#8217;s principles conflict with reality.\u00a0 At this point, you need to ask yourself whether you&#8217;re a rationalist, willing to sacrifice reality so that you can bask in an empty logical certainty, or are you an empiricist, willing to give up that certainty to work toward understanding a messy and confusing reality?<\/p>\n<p>(Okay, I may not have phrased that with complete impartiality.)<\/p>\n<p>By the way, I like this question, &#8220;Which ones?&#8221;\u00a0\u00a0when people are trying to extend a generalization way too far. For instance:<\/p>\n<ul>\n<li>Question:\u00a0 &#8220;Do you really think gay couples contribute as much to society as straight couples?&#8221;<\/li>\n<li>Answer: &#8220;Which ones?&#8221;<\/li>\n<\/ul>\n<ul>\n<li>Question:\u00a0 &#8220;Do you think a man can really take the place of a mother?&#8221;<\/li>\n<li>Answer:\u00a0&#8220;Which ones?&#8221;<\/li>\n<\/ul>\n<ul>\n<li>Question:\u00a0&#8220;Do you think apple desserts are just as good as chocolate desserts?&#8221;<\/li>\n<li>Answer: &#8220;Which ones?&#8221;<\/li>\n<\/ul>\n<p>Enough of that.\u00a0 Back to George&#8217;s article.<\/p>\n<p><strong><span style=\"text-decoration: underline;\">George stacks the deck with loaded terms.<\/span><\/strong><\/p>\n<p>I objected to George\u2019s opening question. And to the sentence that followed. Now I have problems with his use of \u201cconjugal\u201d and \u201crevisionist.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>\u201c<a href=\"http:\/\/dictionary.reference.com\/browse\/conjugal\">Conjugal<\/a>\u201d means \u201cmarital\u201d or \u201crelated to marriage.\u201d So he\u2019s dubbing his view of marriage the \u201cmarital view of marriage\u201d or \u2014 essentially \u2014 the <em>correct<\/em> view. Which would make the \u201crevisionist view\u201d the view that deviates from the correct view. Talk about stacking the deck! Terminology matters, and with these terms, he\u2019s demanding we accept his argument before he even makes it.<\/p>\n<p>Further, how revised is the \u201crevisionist\u201d view? Yes, the notion of same-sex partners is new, but that\u2019s not the heart of what he views as a revision \u2014 the idea marriage exists when two partners:<\/p>\n<blockquote><p>commit to romantically loving and caring for each other and to sharing the burdens and benefits of domestic life. It is essentially a union of hearts and minds, enhanced by whatever forms of sexual intimacy both partners find agreeable.<\/p><\/blockquote>\n<p>How many people would disagree with that? If anything, this \u201crevisionist\u201d view is the commonly-held view, at least when it comes to marriage as it\u2019s practiced by real human beings.<\/p>\n<p>George\u2019s conjugal view makes <em>penis-in-vagina<\/em>* a necessary condition of marriage, but in the last few centuries of Western civilization, how many couples have had to provide legal proof of that? \u00a0\u00a0If an ordinary married couple stops having sex, or never has sex to begin with, that can be cause for divorce or annulment <em>if one of the partners is unhappy with the situation<\/em>. But if neither complains, the government doesn\u2019t intrude by invalidating the marriage against the couple\u2019s wishes. \u00a0How far back in history do we have to go to find\u00a0the government demanding proof of penis-in-vagina before recognizing the marriage of two 80-year-old ordinary citizens? <em>That\u2019s<\/em> how far back we have to go in order to consider George\u2019s \u201crevisionist\u201d view a true revision.<\/p>\n<p>Really, George should use \u201cprocreative view\u201d (or \u201cpenis-in-vagina view\u201d) instead of \u201cconjugal view\u201d and \u201ccommon\u201d in place of \u201crevised.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Perhaps this bickering over terminology seems trivial, but again and again we\u2019ll see George using arguments that assume\u00a0\u2014 and ask <em>you<\/em> to assume\u00a0\u2014 his conclusion is true. Let\u2019s not allow that.<\/p>\n<p>I\u2019ll stop\u00a0here for now. George\u2019s article relies heavily on this distinction between the conjugal\/procreative view and the revisionist\/common view.\u00a0 We\u2019ll be coming back to it frequently, so it deserved its own entry.<\/p>\n<p><em><strong>Next:\u00a0 George takes a detour into bans on interracial marriage and thoroughly confuses the meaning of \u201cdiscrimination.\u201d<\/strong><\/em><\/p>\n<p><em><strong>*<\/strong> <span style=\"color: #555555;\">Unfortunately, crude as it sounds, you\u2019ll be seeing this\u00a0<em>penis-in-vagina<\/em> phrase quite a bit in these entries.\u00a0 George prefers to call\u00a0this interaction\u00a0a\u00a0<em>reproductive<\/em>, or\u00a0<em>generative<\/em>, or <em>procreative act<\/em>.\u00a0 That breaks down, though, when he speaks of infertile opposite-sexers, whom he believes can still have a \u201creal\u201d marriage.\u00a0 For their sake, he sometimes uses the phrase\u00a0<em>procreative-type\u00a0act<\/em>.<\/p>\n<p><span style=\"color: #555555;\">But I can only see a\u00a0procreative-type act\u00a0as the type of act that leads to procreation, and for infertile couples\u00a0no\u00a0type of act leads to procreation. George is manhandling the English language, trying to keep infertile couples in the procreation tent by inventing terms with no coherent meaning.\u00a0 I don\u2019t want to abet him in that effort, so I\u2019ll use the more accurate phrase, &#8220;penis-in-vagina,&#8221; or sometimes &#8220;PIV.&#8221;<\/em><\/span><\/p>\n","protected":false},"excerpt":{"rendered":"<p>[This post is part of a series analyzing Robert George&#8217;s widely-read article, &#8220;What is Marriage&#8220;, which appeared on pages 245-286 of the Harvard Journal of Law and Public Policy. You can view all posts in the series here.] Page 246: &hellip; <a href=\"https:\/\/amptoons.com\/blog\/?p=13518\">Continue reading <span class=\"meta-nav\">&rarr;<\/span><\/a><\/p>\n","protected":false},"author":50,"featured_media":0,"comment_status":"open","ping_status":"open","sticky":false,"template":"","format":"standard","meta":{"footnotes":""},"categories":[138],"tags":[],"class_list":["post-13518","post","type-post","status-publish","format-standard","hentry","category-george-what-is-marriage"],"_links":{"self":[{"href":"https:\/\/amptoons.com\/blog\/index.php?rest_route=\/wp\/v2\/posts\/13518","targetHints":{"allow":["GET"]}}],"collection":[{"href":"https:\/\/amptoons.com\/blog\/index.php?rest_route=\/wp\/v2\/posts"}],"about":[{"href":"https:\/\/amptoons.com\/blog\/index.php?rest_route=\/wp\/v2\/types\/post"}],"author":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/amptoons.com\/blog\/index.php?rest_route=\/wp\/v2\/users\/50"}],"replies":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/amptoons.com\/blog\/index.php?rest_route=%2Fwp%2Fv2%2Fcomments&post=13518"}],"version-history":[{"count":8,"href":"https:\/\/amptoons.com\/blog\/index.php?rest_route=\/wp\/v2\/posts\/13518\/revisions"}],"predecessor-version":[{"id":13526,"href":"https:\/\/amptoons.com\/blog\/index.php?rest_route=\/wp\/v2\/posts\/13518\/revisions\/13526"}],"wp:attachment":[{"href":"https:\/\/amptoons.com\/blog\/index.php?rest_route=%2Fwp%2Fv2%2Fmedia&parent=13518"}],"wp:term":[{"taxonomy":"category","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/amptoons.com\/blog\/index.php?rest_route=%2Fwp%2Fv2%2Fcategories&post=13518"},{"taxonomy":"post_tag","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/amptoons.com\/blog\/index.php?rest_route=%2Fwp%2Fv2%2Ftags&post=13518"}],"curies":[{"name":"wp","href":"https:\/\/api.w.org\/{rel}","templated":true}]}}