{"id":621,"date":"2004-02-19T09:08:36","date_gmt":"2004-02-19T17:08:36","guid":{"rendered":"http:\/\/www.amptoons.com\/blog\/archives\/2004\/02\/19\/eve-responds-to-me-on-gay-marriage\/"},"modified":"2004-02-19T09:08:36","modified_gmt":"2004-02-19T17:08:36","slug":"eve-responds-to-me-on-gay-marriage","status":"publish","type":"post","link":"https:\/\/amptoons.com\/blog\/?p=621","title":{"rendered":"Eve responds to me on gay marriage"},"content":{"rendered":"

In a post earlier this week<\/a>, I objected to the principle of sacrificing the interests of same-sex families in order to (allegedly) reduce divorce among heterosexuals.<\/p>\n

Eve responds wildly, horribly briefly<\/a>:<\/p>\n

Wildly, horribly brief reply: I won’t speak for Elizabeth<\/a>. But I think I’m an equal opportunity sacrifice-demander<\/a>. I am a bit surprised, actually, that Barry (in an eloquent post) speaks as if I am asking more of homosexual couples than I would ask of, e.g., women with unwanted pregnancies, or married couples who want to divorce but are not at the “high-conflict” stage, or unmarried people who want to have sex outside of wedlock, or men who father children when they wish they hadn’t. Just about every adult <\/i>has to sacrifice for the interests of children, although the sacrifices asked of people in different situations are very different.<\/div>\n

Here’s a (similarly, wildly, horribly, brief) reply:<\/p>\n

    \n
  1. There’s an enormous difference in the sacrifice Eve wants same-sexers to make, versus the sacrifices she wants from others. In the examples Eve mentions, she’s generally asking people to make sacrifices for the benefit of their own children. Married parents should not divorce because divorce hurts their own children; pregnant women should be forced to give birth for the sake of their own (unborn) children; fathers should be forced to pay child support for the benefit of their own children; etc.\n

    In contrast, lesbians and gays are being asked to sacrifice their own well-being to help other people’s families – which is not the same thing at all.<\/p>\n

    Even worse, Eve wants same-sex couples to sacrifice their own children’s well-being <\/i> to (allegedly) help other people’s children. (I’ve posted before – here <\/a>and here <\/a>– on the benefits of same-sex marriage to the children of same-sex couples).<\/p>\n

    Eve says “every adult has to sacrifice for the interests of children,” but no adult – other than lesbian and gay adults – is asked to sacrifice their own children’s well-being. That’s a hugely unfair thing to ask of same-sex couples, and it’s far, far more than she’s asking of heterosexual couples.<\/p>\n

  2. Eve doesn’t really address the question of discrimination. She talks about “men who father children when they wish they hadn’t” – a reference, I think, to forcing noncustodial fathers to pay child support (among other policies). I agree with that – but noncustodial mothers should also <\/i>be forced to pay child support. And if child support laws protected the children of straight fathers, but not the children of gay fathers, that would be disgusting.\n

    In other words, just because we want to protect children doesn’t excuse legal discrimination based on sex or sexual orientation.<\/p>\n

  3. I quibble with Eve’s use of the word “asking,” which falsely implies that Eve thinks same-sex couples should have a choice. Eve is not “asking” same-sex couples anything; instead, she wants to use the law to prevent them from having the choice to marry at all.\n

    In contrast, Eve is not (so far as I know) suggesting that divorce and non-marital sex be outlawed. Until she does support using force of law to compel all those people to follow her own moral preferences, though, she can’t honestly claim that she’s treating same-sex couples no differently from other folks.<\/p>\n

    (To be fair, Eve does favor government compulsion on some other issues, such as child support and abortion. Needless to say, I disagree with Eve on abortion, but that’s another post.)<\/ol>\n

    Eve also writes:<\/p>\n

    I will also say, again overbriefly, that I think Barry is conflating equality and happiness. Marriage is treated differently by law and society because it does more for society. Other relationships, no matter how much they do for the couple, do less for the rest of us, and consequently are treated differently.<\/div>\n
      \n
    1. I’m not “conflating equality and happiness.” I’m arguing in favor of equal treatment of homosexuals and heterosexuals under the law. That is the issue under discussion; do you favor or oppose equality under the law? I favor equality, Eve and her allies oppose it.\n

      (People may think that framing the issue this way is a personal attack on Eve. It’s not; it’s a factual statement about Eve’s policy position, and says nothing about her personally.)<\/p>\n

    2. I don’t believe that Eve’s argument can justify legal discrimination against a minority. To see why, imagine that a social scientist put together reams of evidence proving that it doesn’t benefit society when Jews get married. Even if the social scientist were factually correct<\/i>, would anyone say that Jews should consequently be “treated differently,” that is, banned from marrying?\n
    3. Eve assumes that same-sex marriages cannot benefit society.
      \nBut her assumption is unjustified. It certainly seems likely that the children of same-sex couples benefit from gay marriage; society in turn benefits from having happier, healthier children. Insofar as access to marriage may make lesbians and gays happier, more likely to form stable family units, more productive, and less likely to be on the public dole, society benefits. And insofar as legal discrimination against lesbians and gays morally degrades our entire society, ending that discrimination benefits society.<\/p>\n
    4. Finally, I object to the implication that people are objects for society’s benefit and nothing more. Certainly, society\u2019s benefit is a legitimate factor to consider, but it’s not the only <\/i>factor. If a person benefits society should not determine if they have equal protection of the law. Homeless people, for instance, probably don’t benefit society much, but that wouldn’t justify taking away their right to vote, or speak freely – or, for that matter, to get married. Human beings are more than instruments to be used to benefit society, but Eve’s argument doesn’t seem to acknowledge that.<\/ol>\n

      P.S. Okay, that wasn’t so brief after all. :-p.<\/a><\/p>\n","protected":false},"excerpt":{"rendered":"

      In a post earlier this week, I objected to the principle of sacrificing the interests of same-sex families in order to (allegedly) reduce divorce among heterosexuals. Eve responds wildly, horribly briefly: Wildly, horribly brief reply: I won’t speak for Elizabeth. … Continue reading →<\/span><\/a><\/p>\n","protected":false},"author":1,"featured_media":0,"comment_status":"open","ping_status":"open","sticky":false,"template":"","format":"standard","meta":{"footnotes":""},"categories":[112],"tags":[],"class_list":["post-621","post","type-post","status-publish","format-standard","hentry","category-same-sex-marriage"],"_links":{"self":[{"href":"https:\/\/amptoons.com\/blog\/index.php?rest_route=\/wp\/v2\/posts\/621","targetHints":{"allow":["GET"]}}],"collection":[{"href":"https:\/\/amptoons.com\/blog\/index.php?rest_route=\/wp\/v2\/posts"}],"about":[{"href":"https:\/\/amptoons.com\/blog\/index.php?rest_route=\/wp\/v2\/types\/post"}],"author":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/amptoons.com\/blog\/index.php?rest_route=\/wp\/v2\/users\/1"}],"replies":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/amptoons.com\/blog\/index.php?rest_route=%2Fwp%2Fv2%2Fcomments&post=621"}],"version-history":[{"count":0,"href":"https:\/\/amptoons.com\/blog\/index.php?rest_route=\/wp\/v2\/posts\/621\/revisions"}],"wp:attachment":[{"href":"https:\/\/amptoons.com\/blog\/index.php?rest_route=%2Fwp%2Fv2%2Fmedia&parent=621"}],"wp:term":[{"taxonomy":"category","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/amptoons.com\/blog\/index.php?rest_route=%2Fwp%2Fv2%2Fcategories&post=621"},{"taxonomy":"post_tag","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/amptoons.com\/blog\/index.php?rest_route=%2Fwp%2Fv2%2Ftags&post=621"}],"curies":[{"name":"wp","href":"https:\/\/api.w.org\/{rel}","templated":true}]}}