I’m an out bi man. I’m often mistaken on blogs for a gay man, because I talk about LGBT rights issues from the standpoint of someone who’s affected by them, and I have a man’s name. The idea that I might be something else is not considered. The ‘B’ and ‘T’ in LGBT is often silent or taken for granted, and from my perspective as a bisexual, we often get discriminated with in the midst of what’s supposed to be our community.
Bisexuals are threatening, both to heterosexuals and homosexuals. Sarah In Chicago writes that some biphobia in the LGBT community might come from a fear that bisexuals will be used as evidence that gay people can ‘change’. Mythago makes the comment that the lesbian communities’ biphobia is responsible for so many bi women winding up with men.
I personally have experienced curses and insults from within fellow marchers at a pride parade, calling me a slut, a fake fag, and a ‘try-sexual’. We also frequently got ignored or shunted to the side in public debates, and some times in events. I’ve been told that bi people don’t really exist, that it’s just a fad, that I’m really one orientation or another, and that I absolutley must make up my mind one day if I’m straight or gay because my partner will leave me if I don’t.
I’ve also had to deal with the inevitable bisexual/polyamory link. There’s the fear that bisexuals might push for polyamorous marriages to be legal, and that would hurt the same sex marriage movement I’m not sure if that’s biphoba or polyphobia. I know I’m guilty of it whatever it is. I’ve avoided speaking up for multipartner relationships in order to keep the conversation on track about same sex marriages. I always feel a bit like I’m betraying something when I do that, especially considering I’m polyamorous.
As bad as this makes it sound, it’s not all that bad. It’s subtle and small, like if I go into a gay coffee shop with a female and snuggle in, I get sneered at, if I go in with a man, no one notices, but if I go in with a woman, I’ve gotten asked to ‘stop the display’ when we weren’t doing anything I hadn’t done with one gender or the other. PDAs with both genders at the same time get an even worse reception :-)
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Nice post Josh, and it certainly is needed. The ‘B’ and the ‘T’ are more often than not seriously marginalised.
Just wanted to make sure it wasn’t thought that I was excusing the biphobia present in our community, or even my own personal biphobia, through that explanation. I just wanted to provide a certain context for it.
And I wish I knew how to get over the anger I too feel (being honest here, much to my disgust at myself) when bisexual people bring their partners of a different gender into gay spaces. To a lot of us it feels like you have the rest of society as a space to do such, whereas we don’t, so to have that brought into our spaces feels like a denial of our space to us as well. Of course that makes jack-shit sense, as it’s a queer space and you are queer, so you should just as much have a right to be there and feel safe as we do.
And of course it’s bad, don’t deny your pain by saying it’s subtle and small; some of the worst discrimination is subtle and small. I’ve worked on loads of LGBT groups, and while I know I am doing my most to work for inclusion (because its the right damn thing to do) I wish I knew how to overcome my own prejudices when it comes to bisexuals.
As an aside, the interesting, and ironic thing about Mythago comment that makes it so valid is that it’s a self-fulfilling prophecy; the lesbian community shuns bisexual women because we feel that they will just leave us for a man, so of course it completely makes sense that bisexual women don’t feel comfortable or safe with us, and so do end up with men, which is then taken by lesbians as evidence. It’s really not a nice cycle.
One thing I know that has contributed to my own, well, biphobia is fake bisexuals. Not ‘fake fags’ or ‘fake dykes’. Fake bisexuals. Straight people who call themselves bi to attract heterosexual attention. These people exist, as far as I know, mostly in the younger punk and goth communities, and they annoy the hell out of both me and all of bi friends.
It first really came to my attention when a very goth ‘bi’ guy confided in me that he really wasn’t interested in men at all, but called himself bi “because punk girls think bi boys are hot”. He seemed genuinely surprised when I got pissed-off at him. These people make real queers of every sort angry because they let their ‘bisexuality’ be fetishized in a goth or punk heterosexual context, without ever having to or intending to go through the shit of having an actual same-sex relationship in the world at large. Seriously, it’s damn near cultural appropriation. In addition to that, I think that this ‘all bisexuals are hot’ thing goes back to the common stereotype in a sort of round-about way: “all bisexuals are sluts, hence sexually experienced, hence hot.”
Which is where my personal brand of biphobia comes in. I frankly do not trust punk or goth kids who call themselves bi to actually be queer; not at first. A very quiet, very conservative, Chinese friend of mine came out a while back as bisexual, and I believed him instantly. A guy in a position like that, who will face real hardship and prejudice in his political and ethnic communities for being bisexual, has my full support and sympathy as a queer. It’s ‘rebellious’ white goths that call themselves bi that I’m cynical of. Of course, there’s no reason why there shouldn’t be real bi goths or punks, and it’s probably wrong of me to distrust anyone about their stated sexuality, so I’ll acknowledge that it’s a sort of biphobia.
your post is amazingly on time for me, josh. i just ran into this conversation yesterday at another blog and it brought up all kinds of crap.
as a bisexual woman i’ve been dealing with biphobia for the last 30 years and the truth is – it still hurts. that’s my bottom line. i’m still being hurt because the gay and lesbian community is as bigoted as the hetero one. the very people who should know better because they’ve experienced it are busy, righteously dishing it out.
this is going to get long so i’ll trackback but big thanks for bringing it up.
Sarah, maybe it would help to know that when we go with opposite-sex partners, it’s because our partners are also queer, and we don’t feel safe in ‘straight space.’ Sure, we can pass…mostly. But it’s not the same.
mythago –
yeah, I’ve heard similar things from other bisexuals, that often even if they have opposite sex partners that they are queer too … however, the reaction we/I have is more about a base reaction to someone expressing what looks like ‘straight’ behaviour in ‘our’ space. Yeah, I know it doesn’t make sense … think it’s a classic example of how prejudice is never sensical *sigh*
Myth, your point is an interesting one that I haven’t really thought about before. If bisexuals settle into opposite-sex relationships more than same-sex relationships, it seems that the two major reasons are a) heterosexuals outnumbers homosexuals and bisexuals, so your average bisexual is going to have a much larger pool of potential partners that is heterosexual to choose from and b) heterosexual privilege is very appealing. If you’re bi and you pick an opposite sex partner, you can marry and your family’s support isn’t called into question and people don’t shun you in public, etc.
Re: Fake bisexuals. I want to plea for some tolerance of “fake” bisexuals who are young. When I was an adolescent, I tended to have crushes on other women all the time. I was sincerely confused as to whether I was straight or bi. Now that I’m older and have gone around the block a couple of times, I realize that I am really only interested in having sex and having relationships with men. Sex with women left me rather cold, to tell the truth. It turns out that my crushes were mostly platonic and I needed experience to figure that out.
Except when you are with your opposite-sex partner, you are in some sense denying the heterosexual privilege that comes with that relationship. Bisexuals have a great deal of privilege, being able to be in an opposite-sex relationship or be apart of the heterosexual world at the drop of a hat, the moment it becomes convenient or inconvenient.
Instead of talking about your oppression, how about some discussion about the reality of all your privilege.
Amanda wrote:
I want to plea for some tolerance of “fake”? bisexuals who are young. When I was an adolescent, I tended to have crushes on other women all the time. I was sincerely confused as to whether I was straight or bi.
All of that’s fine. I have no problem with questioning people, or people who call themselves bi while trying to figure out if they’re bi, straight, gay, or whatever. I do have a problem with people who call themselves bi in an explicit and conscious effort to get heterosexual attention.
Instead of talking about your oppression, how about some discussion about the reality of all your privilege.
Victim fight!
Theory of Comparative Oppression: If members of a group have the emotional energy to bicker over which of them is more oppressed, the level of oppression involved is too low to be interesting to ordinary people outside of the group.
Res Ispa –
Instead of talking about your oppression, how about some discussion about the reality of all your privilege.
I know I have my own biphobia, but how about you shutting the hell up, how about that instead? I thought about answering this nicely, but that is such an insanely bigoted comment I just can’t.
Yes, there are spaces where we can talk about the straight privilege bisexuals can have, and as you can see, we are putting that into the context of the discussions here about biphobia and the oppressions bisexuals face. But that’s NOT the point of this thread, its about oppressions and what those of us that are in positions of RELATIVE privilege (ie gays and lesbians in queers spaces and communities) do to perpetrate them.
Think, perhaps, before you post next time, eh?
Robert, that comment added exactly nothing to the discussion at hand. No one is playing the Bigger Victim card–this is an examination of how different prejudices work together to make all sorts of different people’s lives difficult.
AV, that’s fair enough. One thing that makes me absolutely bananas is women who try to flirt with me in order to get male attention. It’s humiliating to me and it’s offensive to lesbians and bisexuals.
I do have a problem with people who call themselves bi in an explicit and conscious effort to get heterosexual attention.
That’s reasonable. However, those people are acting in response to rational incentives. Pretending to be bi will get you hot sex in some circles, as noted.
It seems to me that the men and women who will deliver hot sex to those they perceive as “bi” that they would not deliver to the same person without the label are equally appropriating the identity.
I suspect that one reason there is hostility against bisexual people is that bisexuals have choice. I’m bisexual, in the sense that there are men I find sexually attractive and women I find sexually attractive. Socially and personally, however, I function as heterosexual, for a number of reasons. Most queer folks that I’ve ever met are pretty adamant against the idea of sexuality being chosen, but that’s just the reality for most bisexuals; we can choose, if we want to, to function as entirely gay or entirely straight. That’s subversive of the notion of orientation as being something fixed by external forces, over which we have no control, which has been fairly fundamental in queer theory.
Now that was a useful comment, Robert.
Bisexuals can avail themselves of most straight privileges, especially if they aren’t out about their bisexuality. But one straight privilege that only straight people get is the privilege to believe that none of these questions are important.
Hm. Why couldn’t a bisexual or homosexual individual think that component of their identity wasn’t important?
Bisexuals have a great deal of privilege, being able to be in an opposite-sex relationship or be apart of the heterosexual world at the drop of a hat, the moment it becomes convenient or inconvenient.
It’s interesting how this comment breaks down something so complex into such a black and white statement that supports bigotry. Bisexuality isn’t about convenience any more than being gay is about inconvenience. While I’m not a huge Kinsey fan by any means, I definitely relate most sexuality back to the old Kinsey scale with regards to where people self-identify, which means that bisexuality is pretty common and naturally occurring. People shouldn’t have to apologise for it.
Fear of whether my husband and I (both bisexual) will be accepted by our local LGBT Allies organization is the main reason I have not made an effort to participate in their meetings and activities. I don’t know if similar fear is a concern for him.
I feel that what mythago said about bi people gravitating together is true: we need people we feel safe with and if we don’t feel safe with the homosexual community we’ll form relationships that look straight even if they aren’t. I wish there wasn’t so much pressure to work within those constraints.
Robert wrote:
It seems to me that the men and women who will deliver hot sex to those they perceive as “bi”? that they would not deliver to the same person without the label are equally appropriating the identity.
Certainly. As I wrote, I really do think that the bi=hot idea is, at it’s core, an extension of bi=slut. Same stereotype, different spin.
Good post, Josh, and interesting comments. I posted about this same thing a while back here. I was dating a man at the time, and got kind of cheesed off when my dearest friend/ex-wife (who, not incidentally, dated a bisexual woman for several years) got all snarky with me about the “heterosexual privilege” thing. It’s just so tiresome, sometimes. I mean, I believed it, way back in the day, when we were asking, as lesbians, simply for the opportunity to love whomever we happened to love and to be accorded the same respect and recognition as anyone else. And to have the women I regarded as sisters in that old fight now regard me with suspicion is deeply annoying and discouraging. I want the same thing I’ve always wanted, and I still can’t make myself play by the rules just to please some people.
And Amanda and Mythago: It is “easier” in some ways to pursue a het relationship in part on account of the things you mention; another factor for me, living in a smallish city in the bible belt, is that there is virtually no lesbian community here that I would fit into — even if I were a “real” lesbian. My politics, my interests, etc. set me apart and label me, by their standards, a heretic from the get-go. And they mostly bore me, besides. I am much happier choosing my social affiliations in other ways (music scene, intellectual interests, political activities, etc).
Res ipsa
I’m happy to talk about it. I’m white, I’m male, I’m bisexual, I’m Jewish, I’m polyamorous.
There’s a lot of advantages and disadvantages, privilege, and penalty. If the subject comes up, I’ll talk about the problems and benefits I get, as well as the system that I’m unavoidably a contributer to just by being male. I fugure Amp does a good job of it, but if you really want to hear from me personaly, I’ll send you some email
Fair?
I’m willing to give you the benefit of the doubt and see if you were not trying to shit the discussion down with your comment, but that’s what it read like to me, and apparently to Sarah too. In this specific post, we’re talking about biphobia, not my own personal privilege. Can we keep on topic here? If you’re interested in talking about privilege, there are more appropriate forums.
The wonderful thing about being bisexual is that phrases like “instead of” are less common in my vocabulary. So how about instead of using the phrase “Instead of talking about your oppression, how about some discussion about the reality of all your privilege.” you just replace “instead of” with “as well as”.
You might also want to put a “would you please” in there as well. I’m usualy receptive to people being polite.
I meant to add also that I feel way more comfortable (here at least) as a lesbian or bisexual in the “straight” world than I do as a bisexual in the lesbian community. While I don’t go out of my way to talk about it in most situations, I’ve never made any effort to hide anything about my personal life, even from my most conservative-christian work colleagues. I’ve encountered almost no hostility or weirdness despite living in the land of Jesse Helms.
Kim: There’s a system called the Klein Grid that tracks bisexuality better than the Kinsey scale, which is linear.
As to the ‘pretend’ bisexuals, well, yes, they annoy me. OTOH, I’ll cop to enjoying the benefits that being a bisexual man gives me in s being attractive to some women. Have I sometimes played it up? Yes, but in the context of a joke.
A humorous anencdote : once, I was kissing a female friend of mine at a party, and a straight friend asked what he might do to get her to kiss him. She told him he had to kiss me. So he did. Pretty much everyone’s jaw dropped when he kissed me.
Of course, no one saw him as playing at being bisexual. We all knew he was straight. He even said he enjoyed it. He just wasn’t attracted to me at all. And he wasn’t a bad kisser either.
And now you all probably know more about me than you wanted to :-)
Now, I know I have been speaking about how non-welcoming I know the lesbian community can be, I just wanted to express some warmth towards it :)
As a lesbian I feel wonderfully comfortable in most lesbian and gay spaces (though, I will admit, as a femme, that isn’t always true), more so than anywhere else. Sure, they can at times be predatory, but a decade and a half ago when I was coming out in my teens, it was a wonderful and supportive space where I could let down the masks that I held up against the straight world.
And still, being surrounded by women who love other women makes me feel safe and at home in a way I simply don’t feel in straight society. And I say this particularly because the majority of my friends are straight and more often than not I end up in straight bars and organisations, etc. I can be honest about things and not think twice in that way that I have to do in the wider world. Sitting outside a queer bar on a summer night during Pride surrounded by dykes reminds me of how much I have to need to close myself off in normal day-to-day life. And this is backed-up via experience.
Course, it’s not perfect by any stretch of the imagination, as the discussions here prove, we SO need to work on our biphobia (and trans phobia, for while being trans seems to be accepted more than bisexuals, it’s still an issue), but it’s miles ahead of most other spaces I have encountered. :)
Sarah in Chicago said:
“Course, it’s not perfect by any stretch of the imagination, as the discussions here prove, we SO need to work on our biphobia (and trans phobia, for while being trans seems to be accepted more than bisexuals, it’s still an issue), but it’s miles ahead of most other spaces I have encountered. :)”
When you talk about trans people in the lesbian community are you primarily talking about trans guys? My experience has been that transphobia (at least towards trans women) is significantly more of an issue than biphobia, although it tends to turn up less often (and I may be more sensitised to transphobia than biphobia.)
I thought it was interesting that the focus is on bisexuality as threatening to gay communities, as the worst biphobic attitudes I’ve seen have been based on the idea that bisexuality kind of taints the bi person- bi identity isn’t construed as threatening to the community identity as a whole, but it does mean that the bi person’s queer identity is compromised or tainted, so they don’t get treated as heterosexual but rather as a kind of degraded gay person.
oops, sorry Tarn, yes, I should have specified trans guys, don’t know why I didn’t :)
I have to give a big shout out for the wonderful women I met as a younger teen here, and agree. Coming out as a bi woman in a lesbian community was never anything but comfortable for me; the women I was surrounded with were understanding (even if a few thought I might “go their way” eventually) and incredibly supportive in what was a fairly homophobic community. We all faced violent prejudice and were far stronger together than apart I guess. Of course, at the time, I was dating a woman.
Now, in a different part of Britain, it strikes me that the lesbian community here is less bonded through this struggle with outward homophobia; there isn’t the level of incidents here that there was were I lived previously. It is in this community I’ve witnessed and experienced the most biphobia; I’ve had more abuse hurled at me from within the queer community than from homophobic outsiders, for being “try-sexual” and “fake”. I’m not sure whether it is this, or the fact I lean slightly towards heterosexuality that is the reason for my last 3 relationships being straight; it certainly makes for a lot more confusion during an already confusing period of adolescence and acceptance of my sexuality.
I don’t want to chip in on either side and say that the lesbian community is as a whole biphobic; I don’t know enough to have any trends set in my mind, and I don’t want to demean or devalue the amazing support I got from what remains one of the safest spaces I can run to. I just wish that safe space was guaranteed regardless of the gender of the person in my bed, because it’s something I’ve relied on and needed as a young person in the process of being honest with myself.
On another note, the “fake” bi thing really gets to me as someone who has to continually convince people I’m not just putting up a front when I say I find women attractive too. But I understand, through my feminism in particular, why a hell of a lot of women my age do it; it’s an extension of the feeling that their sexuality is for men’s pleasure only, and should be contorted to please them. So I try and rein in my sarcasm ;-)
Okay, I came off harsh, but I really do get tired of listening to the bisexual “woe is me.” The reality is that any oppression bisexuals experience is not because of their opposite-sex attraction, but because of their same-sex attraction? Do bisexuals experience hate crimes for being bisexual? Do bisexuals get fired for being bisexual? No. They experience discrimination and oppression because of their same-sex attraction.
Res Ipsa: I’m not talking here about discrimination and oppression here. I have experienced very little of it in any case. I absolutely don’t think that the lesbian community is out to oppress me. It’s more a case of a club I don’t particularly want to join that doesn’t especially want people like me as members.
It’s not really, in my case, hurting me in the least. I am losing nothing here, especially since it’s by and large the case that I am comfortable in the community-at-large, or at least the subgroups of it with which I am affiliated. My bisexuality is regarded by my straight friends as — at worst — an eccentricity, along with riding my bike to work, not owning a television, and drinking TAB. It seems to shock people way less to notice that I’m bisexual than to discover that I don’t attend church.
What I’m talking about is how comfortable and welcome I feel in one community vs. another once it’s revealed that I’m bisexual, and how disappointing it is to find out that the people you thought were on your side of something in fact have labeled you the enemy.
I just don’t see this as any kind of lame-ass ‘I’m more oppressed than you are’ contest. I don’t really have any close bisexual friends here to discuss this with, so I’m very interested in what others have to say about their experiences in other places with this same issue.
Res ipsa
OK, so that was a totaly usless attempt at an appology. Didn’t anyone ever tell you that appologizing and calling someone whiny in the same sentence is ill mannered and hypocritical?
I guess you really were trying to shut down the discussion. That was contemptable. The worst part is that you’re still trying, and at the same time asking to be forgiven for it.
No, Res Ipsa, bisexuals (especially men) get grief because they have both–clearly they’re incapable of monogamy, and bisexual men are routinely blamed for bringing AIDS into the pure and innocent heterosexual community.
heterosexual privilege is very appealing
Maybe I’m imagining things, but I have this dim idea that one of the subjects discussed on this blog, and some others, was about feminism and how the standard heterosexual paradigm is oppressive, especially to women. Funny how when a woman is heterosexual, she can talk all she wants about the inequalities of male-female relationships, male privilege, sexist expectations and so on, but if she’s bisexual, suddenly dating men is the key to the executive suite of privilege.
In #6, Amanda, you also left out c), which is that the heterosexual community is a lot more accepting of bi women than the lesbian community is. It’s annoying when straight people think you’re a slut, but they aren’t calling you a traitor, accusing you of embracing ‘privilege’, or telling you to make up your fucking mind already.
I’m not really a part of the lesbian community (unless just being one makes you part of it), so I am speaking only from my own experience when I say that I understand lesbian biphobia. Lesbian sex is so often portrayed as a pale imitation of heterosex- which is, of course, the REAL thing. There Japanese slang term for lesbian sex means “appetizers.” Everyone knows that all we lesbos need is a good hetero f*ck to turn us straight again. Curious friends asking: “What exactly do you, uh, DO in bed?” (what do you THINK we do, play Jenga?) Curious friends displaying surprise that lesbian sex is more than kissing. A court ruling that lesbian sex does not constitute marital infidelity.
So when you’re being bombarded on all sides with media representation/images/misconceptions/well-meaning questions/language that tells you that lesbian sex is nothing compared to hetero sex, can’t you see how that’d make you hesitate to date anyone who doesn’t seem ONE HUNDRED PERCENT committed to pussy? I mean, if EVERYONE thinks it, what if its true? What if you’re the only one who REALLY likes lesbian sex more than heterosex? I know I can’t help but feel insecure about it. I’d never want to end up with someone to whom my 8oz bacon-wrapped sirloin is nothing more than a bloomin’ onion…
Just to clarify, I wasn’t trying to validate lesbian biphobia. Just trying to show that there’s more to it than some kind of messed-up lesbian purist fantasy.
Good point, mythago. I would add that the heterosexual community, particularly straight men, often don’t regard two women having sex as “real”. Many, many straight people think of bisexual women as essentially straight with a kink, which is unfair.
Bisexual men, though, don’ t seem very welcome anywhere.
Avenir, I understand the aversion. The problem is a) buying into the same stereotypes–a single drop of semen makes you not-a-lesbian!–that the reactionaries push, and b) the hypocrisy.
By hypocrisy, I mean that in my experience, plenty of lesbian communities have no problem with lesbians who do have sex with men, or even women who are married to men. As long as they self-identify as lesbians and don’t talk about their “wild side” liasions much, that’s acceptable. It’s not accepting the L-word that is seen as divisive and fence-sitting. And sure, there are people who say “no, I’m just bi” because they’re waffling–but there are also plenty who don’t feel they can honestly say they are 100% homo.
I could have told my friends “yeah, I like men, but I’m pretty much a lesbian” and it would have been fine; there were self-identified lesbians I knew who got more dick than I did.
I would add that the heterosexual community, particularly straight men, often don’t regard two women having sex as “real”?.
Yup. Nothing sets off that homophobia faster than the guy who thinks his girlfriend is going to put on a girl-girl show for him finding out said girlfriend really, really likes pussy…
Undoubtedly, part of the perceived “biphobia” is the sense many gays and lesbians have that they once identified as bisexual on the road to being gay, so they/we believe that calling yourself bisexual is a bit of denial.
On a more political level, I guess I see bisexuality is politically precarious. Bisexuals don’t really help the political cause for gay rights and are potentially more of a distraction. Since bisexuals conceivably will be able to marry someone they are sexually and emotionally attracted to, gay marriage is less of a concern. Job discrimination is only a problem when they identify with someone of the same sex. As someone else pointed out, bisexuals tend to personify the belief that gay people can change and be with people of the oppposite sex, if only they try hard enough.
So how do bisexuals see themselves fitting into the political issues beyond being an ally?
Ummm, I can pretty easily see myself fitting into queer political issues as a queer person, and not just an ally. It’s very annoying to me to be seen as somehow less of a part of the LGBT community when I’m with a partner of the opposite sex. My sexuality doesn’t change just because I’m seeing a man.
Yes, we can marry someone we love as long as that person is of the opposite sex, so same sex marriage is very much still an issue for us. If I ended up engaged to a man, I probably wouldn’t marry him until I would be legally entitled to marry if my partner was a woman. Fortunately same sex marriage is not far off for Britain.
I also strongly disagree that job discrimination (or discrimination in a place of learning) is only a problem if you’re seeing someone of the same sex. Bigots don’t make an exception for openly bi people just because they have an opposite sex partner. I learned that in high school when I was insulted, whispered about, abused and frozen out when I came out as bi.
It’s very irritaing and dehumanising when people start talking about how bisexuals aren’t politically advantageous for the LGBT movement. Frankly, what bigoted people think of the LGBT movement is not my main concern.
Mythago,
“The problem is a) buying into the same stereotypes”“a single drop of semen makes you not-a-lesbian!”“that the reactionaries push, and b) the hypocrisy…”?
The way I see it, reactionary lesbians push a “lesbianism is not compatible with semen!”? agenda because they are public spokespeople for a minority group and want to put forward a strong, unified idenity- not because they really believe that the statement is true. “Lesbianism is incompatible with semen! ““ Take it or leave it!”? That’s a statement that separates lesbians from heterosexuals in an easily-understandable way. On the other hand, “Lesbians are women who sometimes are married to men but have sex with women, and sometimes fantasize about men while having sex with women, and sometimes have sex with both men and women or even mostly men, but no one’s really sure, it’s different for everyone”? is not a strong, unified, or even comprehensible identity. In fact, it presents lesbianism as the imaginary, half-assed orientation heterosexuals already (want to) think it is.
It’s a problem that lesbians are fighting for visibility at the expense of bisexual visibility, but it is also a problem that lesbians are forced to define their orientation in such extreme terms to get any heterosexual recognition at all. As for the hypocrisy in the lesbian community- all that proves is that lesbians only consider extremist thinking as being beneficial to the politics of their fight for recognition, not to the individual relationships within the community.
So I guess what I’m trying to say is that a lot of lesbian biphobia would disappear if heteros would accept lesbians on their own terms, without all the identity acrobatics. I hope that made sense.
so much for my trackback, got left back.
avenir
can’t you see how that IS “some kind of messed-up lesbian purist fantasy.” when i’m in a relationship with a woman what makes you think that i’m not committed 100% to pussy? why do you insist that i prove my committment by agreeing to only eat pussy for the rest of my life.
you’ll support my right to f*ck anyone outside of the mainstream but not from within it. you’ll support my right to love a woman but not a man. it’s the same narrow mindedness i get from the hetero community – just plug in the opposite gender.
res – go away.
sarah
it’s interesting that the bi conversation in the lesbian community is about sex and not love. maybe lesbians need to ask themselves where that fear comes from. cause the fact is, if i wanted to be with a guy i would be. if it’s about my “choice” in that department, i’d remind you that people don’t have a lot of choice regarding who they’re attracted to – just what they do about it.
for me, the conversation is about love. the right to find love with whomever i’ve been graced to find it with. the right to be supported by others who have fought for that same right. maybe that’s not a right. maybe i should look elsewhere for community but that option saddens me. it feels like a rejection from the very people who should get where i’m coming from.
i think bi sexual women touch on some deep-seeded insecurities in the lesbian community. cause it shouldn’t be about whether or not i’d leave you for a man, it should be about whether or not i’d leave you at all.
So I guess what I’m trying to say is that a lot of lesbian biphobia would disappear if heteros would accept lesbians on their own terms, without all the identity acrobatics. I hope that made sense.
It did, but I think it’s more “some” than “a lot.” And it doesn’t explain acceptance of ‘down low’ bisexuality but hostility; surely if the wingnuts are convinced lesbians just really want men, we should be mad at all self-identified lesbians who aren’t 100% dyke, not just the ones who admit it.
Res Ipsa, you’re still going on the assumption that people are interchangeable, and a bisexual person will simply swap an outie for an innie (or vice versa) if it gains them the correct privilege. Same-sex marriage certainly affects anyone who might fall in love with, and want to marry, somebody of the same sex.
Janine –
i think bi sexual women touch on some deep-seeded insecurities in the lesbian community. cause it shouldn’t be about whether or not i’d leave you for a man, it should be about whether or not i’d leave you at all.
Yup, completely agree with you, it shouldn’t matter, and yup, it definitely reveals some deep-seated insecurities within the community.
But the thing is, amongst conversations I’ve had (and I’ve had a lot of them, and I tend to think this is at least mildly generalisable) is that it DOES hurt more when you get left for a guy than if you get left for a woman.
I’ve asked why, and I’ve gotten variations on this one: being left for a woman means that you two just didn’t work out, being left for a man means a denial of the entire basis of the relationship, whether or not it was really real. Is this the reason for all biphobia amongst lesbians? I doubt it (I’m actually suspect Avenir’s idea pulls some weight too) but it’s how a lot feel.
As I said before, does that make sense? Hell no. But it reveals how prejudice isn’t really based in sense (and I do hope you don’t think I’m excusing this, just explaining and expanding on your stuff *smile*)
oh, and Res Ispa –
you’re missing one of the major trends running through this thread, namely the prejudice that comes from _within_ the lesbian and gay communities, aimed at them. And whatever our excuses for that behaviour, it’s never valid for us to attack other queers about their sexualities.
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I thought it was never valid to attack anyone about their sexuality? Or are straights fair game?
hey! didn’t mean that post to trackback cause i posted here…never mind.
sarah
yeah, i know it hurts more, not denying that at all. but i think the thing is to do some introspection and get to the insecurities, you just glossed over ’em. address those fears and then maybe you’ll find that you don’t need to fear me.
what was the entire basis of the relationship?
Robert: >>Hm. Why couldn’t a bisexual or homosexual individual think that component of their identity wasn’t important?>>
Because if you forget you’re gay, a straight person will remind you.
There are plenty of gay and bisexual people who find their sexuality incidental to their identity; most if not all gay and bisexual people don’t base their senses of self on their sexuality. But being gay and/or bisexual means that you are a minority, the exception to the accepted rules. It’s difficult to ignore that difference.
Res Ipsa>>On a more political level, I guess I see bisexuality is politically precarious. Bisexuals don’t really help the political cause for gay rights and are potentially more of a distraction. Since bisexuals conceivably will be able to marry someone they are sexually and emotionally attracted to, gay marriage is less of a concern. Job discrimination is only a problem when they identify with someone of the same sex. As someone else pointed out, bisexuals tend to personify the belief that gay people can change and be with people of the oppposite sex, if only they try hard enough.
So how do bisexuals see themselves fitting into the political issues beyond being an ally?>>
Bisexuals are attracted to and fall in love with people of the same sex. Pretending to heterosexuality involves denying at least half of their romantic and sexual selves. They are vulnerable to hatred and discrimination whenever they do acknowledge all of their true feelings and desires. They also have to listen to lies about human sexuality and how it works. They are ostracized and ridiculed for being themselves.
Those are all great reasons why they would be committed. They clearly are committed, since there are plenty of bisexuals who demand that they be allowed to form same-sex relationships, and that they be acknowledged in full. How does that jibe with your belief that bisexuals will inevitably seek privilege when it’s available?
They are valuable because they attack the idea that sexuality is easy to simplify. That’s good for a movement that’s trying to break sexual orientation out of a single option. They also bridge the gap between straight and gay–that is, between the normal, good side of the dichotomy, and the bizarre, seedy, dangerous, distant, subhuman, evil, pestilent, immoral, unAmerican side. Destablizing that dichotomy is vital to divorcing “gay” from every negative idea associated with it. They help to normalize same-sex attraction by showing that it exists in a far broader segment of the population. They frequently find and stay with same-sex partners, even though they “could be hetero if they wanted,” which attacks the idea that being straight is easier, better, or more desirable.
Finally–and this dynamic is particularly familiar to me–they don’t need your permission to participate. They don’t need to have some sort of use to be included or acknowledged. Even if their needs and desires were inconvenient, that still wouldn’t be any excuse for ignoring them. None of the bisexuals here have been complaining about how gay people make everyone think that bisexuality isn’t real or significant, or pissing on your preference for one gender. They have at least as much right to snipe at how politically inconvenient you and other gay people are to them as vice versa. Much more so, if we’re just talking about you personally.
Bisexuals don’t really help the political cause for gay rights and are potentially more of a distraction.
First, at political level, that’s not true, for the reasons piny already said above.
Secondly, at personal level, it’s rather odd and contradictory to argue for the right to follow your own sexuality freely when you’re gay, against the strictest traditional social norms and expectations about sexuality, and then… go and deny that right to bisexuals and expect they somehow fit into one neat category, for your own good, not theirs. Why is that different from homophobia?
Do individual sexual preferences need to be subject to considerations about social approval? If the answer is no for gays, then it should be no for bisexuals too, and for everyone else whose sexual preferences are not even neatly defined by any labels.
I can understand the dislike for people who only pretend to be bisexuals, without ever having had same sex experiences, only to give themselves an air of cool or for publicity. But there’s no amount of explanation that justifies scorning people for not ‘making up their mind’. As if sexuality was something one chooses – see, that kind of notion that bisexuals aren’t ‘100% committed’ is precisely a reinforcement of the idea that sexual preferences are something one sits down to think about and comes up with a resolution. It’s as narrow minded as believing that sexuality is something you can change at will.
People are entitled to do whatever they like with their sexual life without needing a pat on the back from any other individual or community.
As next door neighbor to the B community, a seldom regarded love-child of both the G’s and the L’s, I understand what feeling outcast is like. Believe it or not my journey began in the Dianic community of pagans. These are women with many of the right ideas. I embraced them wholeheartedly but my attempts to communicate with the Madison community here in Wisconsin were rebuffed repeatedly as pathetic. I know in my heart that I do have genuine calling from the Goddess but there is no sanctuary there for a queer like me. Within the Trans community also I am not considered nearly Hardcore enough. It can take years for hormone therapy to overcome a lifetime of testosterone poisoning. And those years may not be pretty in the way we wish they were. But here we are as queers just trying to move forward, trying to make connections, trying to make friends.
If I took my prescriptions, packed them in a cute little bag, sashayed down to my local parish center, told them I had finally seen the light and signed up to be a Catholic priest tomorrow. I would find more acceptance there for my expressed conversion than I can find within my own trans – queer community. (Fortunately I look ok in black) There appear to be so many litmus tests for inclusion in the cool girl’s clique. I think it was Frank Zappa who said, “The older I get, the more I believe that all of life is just like High School.”
My advice is for the gays, the lesbians and the Bi’s and the beautiful trans people of every shade to try holding hands with strangers once in a while. Just walk together and think pretty thoughts. Building enclaves so that we can easily identify strangers and protect people who think like us leads to stagnation.
Robert: >>Victim fight!
Theory of Comparative Oppression: If members of a group have the emotional energy to bicker over which of them is more oppressed, the level of oppression involved is too low to be interesting to ordinary people outside of the group.>>
…I also wanted to comment on this. Say a women’s collective that runs a DV shelter gets into a dispute with transwomen and transgender activists over whether transwomen have a right to access shelter services even in arguable competition with non-trans-women. Does that mean that neither group really has anything to fear from domestic violence?
This kind of territorial/strategic argument tends to happen _more_ often between groups that have entirely justified fears about hatred, discrimination, and violence. It happens _more_ often between groups that really do have limited resources and power. It’s a starvation-economy dynamic. Gay people are sensible to feel threatened, and to think very carefully about how best to fight for acceptance and equality–you yourself have made that assertion in other threads. The problem is that they name bisexuals as a threat, which doesn’t really make sense.
Wow. I never really knew that these issues even existed. Minneapolis must be a very bi-friendly community, because I have seriously never encountered an anti-bi bias in the queer community here at all (nor any against trannies for that matter).
I classify myself as an open minded straight girl, but about 80% of my friends are queer (or bi if that is really a separate catagory entirely). I support them wholeheartedly in whatever they choose to do, it’s their life and they have to live it for themselves. I would consider myself to be a piss poor friend if I didn’t support my friends just because of the kind of sex they’re having.
I just really believe that love is something that happens with a person, not with a person’s genitals or hormones. I wish we, as a species, could get past the entire gender issue and treat EVERYONE with respect for their choices, whether they are the choices we would make for ourselves or not.
I too classify myself as straight, but open-minded. I had some confusion in my early 20s, but like another poster, same-sex sex left me cold. I did realize that what I do like to have affectionate male friendships. I’ve supported GLTB organizations because I think it would make my life better. There is still a double standard for platonic affection for women and men.
My experience with the issue at hand came up because my fiance is bi. Her longest prior relationship was with a lesbian. They kept in touch until my Dearest told her ex she was marrying me. The ex said a few choice words, then hung up on her. It really saddened her because this was someone my Dearest had lived with for several years and she was hurt by this. I wanted to meet the ex and didn’t really get the problem. She told me her bisexuality was always an issue in the relationship. The ex was always concerned she’d get left. Funny thing was the ex was the one who cheated several times during the realtionship. So she did get left, but it was for cheating and domineering behavior, not because of the need for some dick.
Maybe this is the result of my own feelings and unique to me, but I’ve long felt that, in order to be heterosexual, I have to be able to imagine the entire sexual narrative: to imagine women desiring me, including desiring my body. In order to imagine myself as sexual subject, I have to imagine myself as sexual object; i.e., imagine the male body as an object of desire.
Flawed as the Kinsey scale may be, I’ve long been conscious that, while I’m far more frequently and more intensely sexually attracted to women, I feel a glimmer of attraction to men now and then. Really, I’m not sure what’s with all those photos of men’s penises in “straight” porn if heterosexual men have no interest in other men’s bodies.
Limiting things to two exclusive categories, heterosexual and homosexual, or even broadening it to three, including bisexual, has long seemed to be a gross oversimplification of our complex and diverse sexual desires.
I remember once trying to say this to some friends in college at Berkeley in the early 90s. As it happened, at the time, most of my friends were non-heterosexual. Anyway, I’d started to say, “I was wondering if defining a category of ‘bisexual’ just reinforces arbitrary categories,” but I couldn’t finish — as soon as I’d said “bisexual,” my friends all became enraged. I thought one of them was going to hit me.
I had, at the time, met people who claimed to be bisexual, but were utterly insincere about it, including one person who admitted having claimed to be bisexual only to get an endorsement from an LGBT club for a campus election. That, however, didn’t explain to me the level of hostility.
Also, my first sexual relationship was with a woman who at first called herself bisexual. She eventually concluded she was a lesbian, but all along was tormented because she felt she did enjoy sex with men. Again, it doesn’t seem to me that neat little boxes really suit anyone — so much the worse if “bisexual” isn’t even allowed as a category.
Of course, virtually every comment above assumes that one’s choice of sexual partners is coextensive with one’s choice of romantic partners. While the two overlap overwhelmingly for most people, they are hardly the same thing. Talking about them as if they are one is convenient, but inexact — for example, any debate whether a woman who identifies as lesbian but occasionally sleeps with men is “really” lesbian is easily resolved if one views the identity and the sexual partners as answers to two different questions.
I agree that romantic partners and sexual partners aren’t identical concepts. But I can’t agree that distinguishing between the two concepts “easily resolves” anything — precisely because, for most people, the two concepts are so closely tied together, and furthermore, there’s so much social pressure to conform to one category or another.
“I have seriously never encountered an anti-bi bias in the queer community here at all (nor any against trannies for that matter).”
and
“I classify myself as an open minded straight girl”
seem to be related. I mean, one doesn’t usually directly experience a lot of prejudice towards a group one does not belong to. In fact, no matter how open-minded one is, a lot of that prejudice is likely to go unnoticed entirely.
Thomas –
That’s actually a really good point, and one I feel should be made more often. More often than not gays and lesbians are classfied according to having sex with members of your own gender, or being sexually attracted to such.
However, I have a number of straight-girl friends that occasionally have sex with women, and enjoy it, but consider themselves dead straight. That’s because they couldn’t ever develop an intimate, loving, partnered relationship with another woman. And they are open about that. Simiarly I’ve had sex with guys in the past, though admittedly not ever again, and I can’t say they were awful, just not my cup of tea by any stretch of the imagination. But having had sex with guys certainly doesn’t stop me from openly, comfortably and solidly identifying as lesbian.
What I think is that we are lesbian or gay (or bisexual) not just because we have sex with the same gender, but because we can fall in love with them.
Course, that’s just my opinion, YMMV :)
(Don’t get me wrong though, women rock and the sex is great too! *grin*)
I’m married and monogamous, so my sexual orientation doesn’t matter a whole lot (other than the fact that I am sexually and romantically compatible with my partner), but in my younger days I was somewhat bisexual and very much a bisexual supremecist, in that I believed that bisexuality was definitely morally superior to either straightness or gayness, in that one should not base either one’s romantic feelings or one’s sexual feelings on what was between someone else’s legs. I’ve mellowed from my bisexual supremecist position, having gradually come to terms with my own predominantly het sexuality. However, I still remain somewhat disturbed by the idea of being incapable of developing romantic-sexual attachments with people of a particular sex (either same or opposite), and regret that I have never had a serious romantic-sexual relationship with another man (I have had significant romantic-sexual attractions to other men, but never successfully acted on the romantic relationship part).
For whatever that is worth.
I would like to add that it’s neat that Alas is a space where people can admit to non-expected sexual encounters/attractions without feeling they have to argue about their stated sexual identities.
It has been interesting reading all these comments, although I am struck by the fact that all the self-described bisexuals appear to land in opposite-sex relationships in the long-term. Is this anecdotal or I wonder if this is reflective of bisexuals in general.
Good question that relates to the bi-phobia of both sides. Is it possible that bisexuals that make long term homosexual relationships are more willing to hang up their identity as bi and claim to be gay than the other way around?
This has been a really interesting discussion about bisexuality and the Queer Community. I’ve always been under the impression that being bisexual meant that one was both sexually and romantically attracted to both sexes. Obviously it’s proven to be more complex than that. I certainly agree that there seems to be a pressure on bisexual individuals to either be hetero or queer in the long-run (as we all know our culture just loves dealing in absolutes and extremes–never shades of grey). The question of “who will they end-up with in the long-run” seems to dominate this issue.
However, I am disturbed by the whole “being bi is just a phase” idea. I’m sure people who are questioning their sexual orientation and are “experimenting” in order to find out what they are might appear to be bi, but I seriously doubt that every single bisexual individual in existence is “confused” and out having sex willy-nilly with everyone of both sexes in order to “pick the right one,” and declare a permanent state of heterosexuality or homosexuality. And people feigning bisexuality in order to receive special attention are pretty damn annoying and set the real LGBT Community back. I vehemently disagree with the notion that bisexuality is “a phase” or “a state of confusion.” People who are unsure of their sexuality should just say they’re “questioning,” and who knows, they may find out that they do like both sexes and be bi. There is a difference between questioning one’s sexuality (ie: experimenting with both sexes in order to find out) and actually being bisexual. But that’s just my opinion of course.
I’m pretty sure I’m hetero, but I do find myself questioning at times, since–you know, I’m nineteen and my hormones are still all wacky.
And people feigning bisexuality in order to receive special attention are pretty damn annoying and set the real LGBT Community back.
You mean like fake lesbians? LUG* is the new fence-sitting bisexual.
Is it possible that bisexuals that make long term homosexual relationships are more willing to hang up their identity as bi and claim to be gay than the other way around?
Yup. Also, as Res Ipsa wasn’t paying attention, the numbers are better–there are just more straight/bi men than lesbian/bi women–and bluntly, in a homophobic world it’s easier to meet opposite-sex partners.
*Lesbian Until Graduation
“*Lesbian Until Graduation”
You mean the embarrassing young women on ‘Girls Gone Wild‘? Yep, they’ll be happy little Susie-Homemakers with four kids and another one on the way, and will be married to the handsome jock/big-man-on-campus, just a few years after graduation. Those wild spring breaks and sorority house parties will seem like fleeting dreams by then, and hopefully locked away in the closet so the other members of the PTA and church group don’t find out about them. But then little Junior will bring his mother a picture and ask “mommy whose this lady you’re kissing and why is she touching your boobies?!”
Faux “lesbians” and fake “bisexual women,”….sheesh. Degrading and porno-ing yourself and other women, and insulting the LGBT Community, all just to get some special attention from drunken frat-boys’ ?! Like I said, very embarrassing, annoying, and insulting–especially to real Lesbians and bisexual women. Questioning and “finding out” are perfectly normal and okay, but doing it for the sole purpose of getting special attention (ie: the Girls Gone Wild video crew) is insulting and immature.
Funny how no matter how the conversation starts, it always comes down (in this society, at least) to scrutinizing the sexual behavior of women. I mean, we’ve gone from a discussion of biphobia to a side conversation about “fake lesbians” and “fake bisexual women.” Note “women,” there. Nothing about “fake bisexual men” who engage in “embarrassing” homoerotic bonding in frat houses in order to get in with the right crowd or whatever, only to end up as Johnny Breadwinner with a wife and four kids. Nope, it’s all about the sexual misadventures of women, one way or another.
Jasper, I have an equal disdain for fake bisexual/fake Gay men as I do for women who do the same. However, fake lesbians/bisexual women are more visible and glorified more often thanks to our culture that has turned women’s sexuality–be it hetero, bi, lesbian–into a commodity for men to enjoy. It was an easy example of fake bisexuality to point out. As a young woman in college, I see young women doing this “faking” stuff just to put on a show because they know they can get an audience. I was merely citing an example of faking bisexuality all for the pleasure of someone else. Not criticizing women’s “sexual misadventures”, as women will always have those in this culture (that doesn’t have a high regard for women having sex period) no matter what their sexual orientation.
That example is another reason why there is biphobia because some people have trouble trusting those claiming to be bi, because they could be lying just to get special attention. Fake bi/fake Gay men do the same thing in order to get special attention from women which is equally as despicable and annoying. Using the sexual orientation of group of people you don’t even belong to will piss me of no matter what you sex is. Faking being bisexual (or Lesbian or Gay) was what I was criticizing, as I see it contributing to biphobia. Not women’s sexuality. I just used the “crazy co-ed girls” example because it’s easy to point that one out, as it’s plastered all over the entertainment industry and media, and is seen as “cool” and even promoted. So insinuate that someone else is being sexist, Jasper. Gosh do I have to put a damn disclaimer from now on?
So once again; I see faking bisexuality to be a contributing factor to biphobia, because with some people claiming to be bi in order to put on a show, how can some us trust that they’re not bullshitting us? That also leads to some people saying “bisexuality is just a phase, a state of confusion, porn, etc.,”–hence, biphobia.
I wanted to add a few more points. Saying that being bi implies privilege because we can “pass” is kind of analogous to saying that light-skinned black people are priveledged because they can “pass” as white. Yes, both groups can indeed “pass” if they so choose, but at what cost to themselves? Is it really worth denying part of your own identity? Having to keep a part of yourself secret isn’t really all that much fun, and who in their right mind would chhose to make themselves subject to discrimination from both sides?
To use myself as an example, realising that I was bi as a teenager was confusing enough. Getting lectured about how I must must be “just confused” by straight people while being sneered at by queers for apparently betraying the cause just by existing didn’t exactly make it any easier. Even in San Francisco, the level of hostility I’ve encountered from lesbians is incredible. I’ve pretty much abandoned any attempt to interact with the local lesbian community for that reason, though oddly enough I don’t get the same response from gay men who usually don’t really seem to care, and are happy to let me identify myself any way I see fit. The lesbian friends of gay male friends bristle at the very sight of me, the lesbian girlfriend of my bi friend constantly acts like I’m trying to steal her girl (I’m not). And that’s before we even get to the dumb horny frat boys who think that all bi girls exist purely for their entertainment, or the “curious” straight girls who try to make out with you when they’re drunk. Ah yes, the joys of bi privilege…
Res Ipsa
Just to clarify, I’m not trying to play the “woe is me” card, just to point out that, in the end, EVERY sexual identity comes with its own set of issues, and that for the queer community to discriminate against bi people is particularly vexing because quite frankly they should know better.
Over here, that’s known as thesbianism :-)
“Fake bisexuals” (love the term thesbianism, ms. b. :)) who put on a display of bisexual behaviour for straight people’s amusement are contributing to, if not one of the main reasons, for bisexual people not being taken seriously in their sexuality.
Two main myths that need to be dispelled:
– Sleeping with someone of the same gender while in a straight relationship isn’t really cheating because it’s not serious, it’s just experimenting (I can’t personally speak about this one from a gay point of view)
– Being bisexual means you get to have a partner of either sex at the same time
With ideas like that floating around it’s not unreasonable to think people get nervous when their partner is bisexual. After all, they think, what if they’re the “fooling around/on the side” relationship?
mrgrinch
I agree, and it circles back to the idea that bi people are slutty. To give you an idea of the view from the other side, as a bi woman I’ve had people try to talk me into cheating on my partner with the idea that if I’m only sleeping with one gender then surely a part of me must be somehow unfulfilled (and therefore I slake this urge by sleeping with them). Many people seem to have difficulty grasping the concept that bi and poly are not the same thing. I have no objection to people who are poly, but I’m not, and for me cheating is cheating regardless of the person you’re cheating with. Why should anyone assume that bi people don’t operate under exactly the same ethical guidelines as everyone else?
Jasper-
I have been deeply involved in the queer community because my best friend is a bi woman and I have several close bi/queer friends of both sexes. Really, I am a part of the community as an ally which seems to be completely acceptable here (I have never experienced any problems in close to 10 years of hanging out at gay bars, going to pride rallys, and such). I realize the point you were trying to make about me not seeing the bias, but really I do think I would have seen it or at least heard about it through my friends.
WookieMonster:
Minneapolis actualy does ahve a pretty good bi community. I know a bumch of the old-school activists there fairly well. Most of what you’re not seing is because they did thier job well.
But as far as I know, they’re reported biphobia before as well.
My theory as to why you’re not seeing biphobia is probably because you’re not seeing all of the facets of the community. I don’t, except when I’m dealing with large scale events like pride marches or community fund raisers, or at parties or bars. I tend to be selectrive in they type of person I hang out whith, so being accepting of bisexuals is sort of a prerequisite. It’s possible you’re subconsciously selecting for that sort of person as well.
I’m fairly sure if you’d ask one of the areas better known acticivsts (and an aquaintance of mine) Elise Matthesen, if she’s experienced biphobia in the lesbian community in Minneapolis, she might have some stories to tell you. Or not. But going from the experiences of others here, it’s a problem.
And thanks to everyone for making this a great first post for me.
“Also, as Res Ipsa wasn’t paying attention, the numbers are better”“there are just more straight/bi men than lesbian/bi women”“and bluntly, in a homophobic world it’s easier to meet opposite-sex partners.”
Passive-agressive much. And, quite truthfully, I don’t have the foggiest idea what point your are making.
Sure, there are fewer gay/lesbian people, yet I am not sure that necessarily means that a supply/demand theory explains why bisexuals tend to end up in opposite-sex relationships.
amanda
part of my problem with this question is the notion that bi-sexual identity is something that is put on and off like a jacket. it feeds into the very phobia we’re discussing: we’re not really seriously identified as anything and so we’re able (and willing) to morph into whatever is convenient.
i’ve been in long term homo and hetero relationships and at no time did i change my sexual identity. maybe that’s a big part of the problem, people don’t really see or respect bi-sexual as an ‘identity’ since we refuse to conform to homo or hetero.
No, I’m sure you didn’t but there is certainly pressure to “choose sides” and I’m sure lots of bisexuals do it.
>>”Also, as Res Ipsa wasn’t paying attention, the numbers are better”“there are just more straight/bi men than lesbian/bi women”“and bluntly, in a homophobic world it’s easier to meet opposite-sex partners.”?
Passive-agressive much. And, quite truthfully, I don’t have the foggiest idea what point your are making.
Sure, there are fewer gay/lesbian people, yet I am not sure that necessarily means that a supply/demand theory explains why bisexuals tend to end up in opposite-sex relationships.>>
No, I think that was just plain aggressive. And it’s true–that question has been asked and answered, and you didn’t address the counterargument.
Why would it not explain the difference, particularly since “bisexuals tend to end up in opposite-sex relationships” may be true of bisexuals as a group, but is not true of every individual? There are many more straight men out there than lesbian women. That means that a bisexual woman who is equally attracted to both genders would be likely, all other things being equal, to meet more potential male than female partners.
Plus–something else you haven’t addressed, btw–bisexuals who end up in same-sex relationships may tend not to define themselves as bisexual. It’s easier to just be a lesbian or a gay man than to hang onto a marginalized, suspected identity that you don’t happen to be using at the moment. I know lot of women who currently sleep with both women and men, but who are committed to “lesbian.” If they end up partnering long-term with women, would people like you consider them bisexual?
“There are many more straight men out there than lesbian women. That means that a bisexual woman who is equally attracted to both genders would be likely, all other things being equal, to meet more potential male than female partners. ”
If this is true, wouldn’t straight people end up having a more relationships throughout their lives, as they meet more potential partners than gay people?
“bisexuals who end up in same-sex relationships may tend not to define themselves as bisexual. It’s easier to just be a lesbian or a gay man than to hang onto a marginalized, suspected identity that you don’t happen to be using at the moment. ”
Why would this not be true of bisexuals in straight LTRs? It sounds like you think gay people are overall more discriminatory and biased toward bisexuals than straight people…
Jasper-
I never said that it didn’t exist here, just that Minneapolis seems to be very bi-friendly and that I’ve never experienced any anti-bi bias here. Not trying to pick nits or anything, but you seem to be arguing (albeit in a very low key and polite way, thanks for that) with me about something I never said. You take any community and there are going to be the usual biases, but I just think that this particular bias is less prevalent in Minneapolis than in other places based on what has been said here. All I was saying.
What? No, that doesn’t make any sense at all. Your logic is like saying that I’ll necessarily eat twice as many meals as you simply because there are twice as many restaurants and markets in my neighborhood. Gay people, straight people, and bisexuals–on average, as groups–want the same number of partners over a lifetime. We’re talking about different ratios for similar amounts: I’m not going to eat six meals each day, but I probably will eat at Applebee’s less often. However, in situations where there are _no_ same-sex options, or too few to sustain a love life, it is indeed true that gay people will have fewer relationships. Ask a gay person how much same-sex dating he did in his small-town high school.
As for your second point, again, no. I don’t think that there’s more prejudice in the gay community than in the straight community. Res ipsa and I agree that there is prejudice against bisexuals in the straight community, because, no shit. What I was pointing out is that he might be more inclined to acknowledge bisexual people in straight relationships than those in queer relationships. This confirmation bias might be leading him to believe that bisexual people are more likely to end up with same-sex partners out of some combination of cowardice and choice. And while I again do not think that there’s more biphobia overall in the LG community, it is possible that bisexuals in queer relationships would be more likely to gay-identify than bisexuals in straight relationships would be to straight-identify.
I know my logic wasn’t entirely on target, but I posted anyway, because I don’t think that “I’ll necessarily eat twice as many meals as you simply because there are twice as many restaurants and markets in my neighborhood” is a crazy, impossible statement. Living in an environment steeped with potential meals may very well affect the amount of food a person eats. Just like living in an environment where the eating of food is taboo and abhorred may affect the amount of food a person eats.
Saying that bisexuals more often end up in hetero relationships because there are more heteros than gays is saying that the amount of potential partners out there affects your liklihood of having a relationship. It sounds logical, but it can’t be, because otherwise the 5 or 6% of gay people in the country would be struggling a lot more than they are to find partners. So I still think that more bisexuals end up in hetero relationships for reasons other than probability.
>>I know my logic wasn’t entirely on target, but I posted anyway, because I don’t think that “I’ll necessarily eat twice as many meals as you simply because there are twice as many restaurants and markets in my neighborhood”? is a crazy, impossible statement. Living in an environment steeped with potential meals may very well affect the amount of food a person eats. Just like living in an environment where the eating of food is taboo and abhorred may affect the amount of food a person eats.>>
And I agreed that in extreme situations–like a small-town high school, to use the example I used–that is indeed the case. However, that was not what anyone was talking about. Plus, here you still aren’t talking about mere availability, but about availability plus social prejudice: “where the eating of food is taboo and abhorred.” That would be equivalent to living in an extremely homophobic community, not one where most of the people simply happen to be straight.
>>Saying that bisexuals more often end up in hetero relationships because there are more heteros than gays is saying that the amount of potential partners out there affects your liklihood of having a relationship.>>
No, it’s saying that the _ratio_ of potential _same-sex_ partners out there affects your likelihood of having a _same-sex_ relationship. This is a crucial difference.
Say I’m a character in an Ursula LeGuin short story. I live on an alien world, in a community of people with neutral attitudes towards same-sex vs. opposite-sex relationships. I like men and women equally. Unfortunately, my town was recently stricken by a microbe that wiped out eighty percent of the male population while still leaving a large number of women alive.
It follows that I will have more female partners than male partners; more female partners than my friend Ghjark, who only likes men; and more male partners than my friend Borix, who only likes women. This is true independent of social attitudes. It’s true because most of the eligible people I meet will be female. I won’t necessarily have fewer partners than Borix, or more than Ghjark. We’re all from the same culture, and we likely have similar sexual mores and similar romantic needs. And we all live in a community where there are enough potential partners of either gender.
However, if there’s a new outbreak that wipes out all but one or two of the men in my settlement, then not only will all my partners likely be female, but I will almost certainly have many more partners than poor Borix.
Sexual orientation–the number of people who would be interested in having sex with you, in other words–works the same way. If there are ten times as many men who might want me as women who might want me, I have a tenfold greater chance of making it with another dude.
Poor Ghjark, that is.
And this?
>>It sounds logical, but it can’t be, because otherwise the 5 or 6% of gay people in the country would be struggling a lot more than they are to find partners.>>
No. See, that’s still enough people to choose partners, particularly when you take into account that that nationwide percentage isn’t evenly dispersed from San Francisco to Laramie.
mrgrinch, I wasn’t referring to the “ooh, let’s smooch so all the guys pay attention!” types, but to the sort of person The Onion parodies:
Lesbian Identity Ends Abruptly Mid-Junior Year
OBERLIN, OH…Three semesters after adopting the sexual identity, Amanda Oppel, a junior women’s-studies major at Oberlin College, abruptly dropped her highly politicized lesbian stance Monday.
I realize the point you were trying to make about me not seeing the bias, but really I do think I would have seen it or at least heard about it through my friends.
And so because you, an ‘ally’ with bisexual friends, have not personally seen the bias, it must not exist.
For Res:
I’ve been in a relationship with a woman for almost eight years. I’m still bisexual. I face homophobia and biphobia. When I was partnered to a man (for years before my current love) I surely was granted heterosexual privilege. I get that surely. However, it doesn’t mean I still didn’t have to deny half of my sexuality in exchange for that. Also, many times when people would find out that I was bi (partnered with the guy), they would inevitably ask, “Isn’t he nervous you’ll leave him for a woman?” And similarly now, people ask if my current partner is nervous I’ll leave her for a man. I honestly can’t tell you how many people ask me this question. The fact is, I left the guy because I fell out of love with him. I met my partner and fell in love with her because she’s an amazing person. People don’t like to believe those answers.
Also, you (res) wrote:
“As someone else pointed out, bisexuals tend to personify the belief that gay people can change and be with people of the oppposite sex, if only they try hard enough. ”
Well, you know, just because society as a whole sees that as true, it’s still wrong and I’m not willing to be held accountable for that.
Also, in regards to your question about most (visible) bisexual people as being with opposite-sex partners, I wonder if that has anything to do with the fact that everyone assumes I’m a lesbian, even tho I am bi. Most of the lesbian community that I am involved in pretty much ignores my bisexuality because I am in a seven + year relationship with a woman. Which is fine, that makes sense, we have more in common. However, it may be part of the reason why same-sex partnered bisexual people are not as visible.
I also want to second the notion that I think a lot of the biphobia from the lesbian community comes from fear, insecurity and the discrimination that they deal with. This is from my experience only of course.
HC
A lot of the above conversations on the rate of hetero-to-gay relationships for bisexuals hinges on one assumption: that a bisexual person has a roughly 50/50 interest in both sexes, and thus, should have roughly the same number of partners of either gender over the course of their lives. Most of the bisexuals I’ve known fit elsewhere on the sliding scale.
>>A lot of the above conversations on the rate of hetero-to-gay relationships for bisexuals hinges on one assumption: that a bisexual person has a roughly 50/50 interest in both sexes, and thus, should have roughly the same number of partners of either gender over the course of their lives. Most of the bisexuals I’ve known fit elsewhere on the sliding scale.>>
Not at all; your experiences jibe with mine. I think it is sensible, though, to accept for purposes of argument that bisexuals as a group average out about even: you know, some Kinsey .5’s, some Kinsey 5.9’s. That is, I don’t think uneven preferences would skew general statements like the ones we’ve been disputing towards same-sex or opposite-sex relationships.
I hadn’t thought about it quite like that. There’s a definite sense in which I am unwilling to hang up the “queer” label and am therefore more comfortable accepting the label “lesbian” when I’m dating a woman than I would be with the label “straight” just because I happen to be dating a man. Whatever label gets applied, my behavior doesn’t change, my identity remains solid, my life is not altered. Which is why I prefer the label “queer” if I have to talk about it. I happen to not be in a relationship at this exact moment. I think it would be absurd to call me “asexual” on account of that.
Hm. Is it possible that biphobes could hear “queer” as “lesbian” or “gay,” when they encounter a queer-identified bisexual person in a same-sex relationship?
Thank you Josh for reminding me that I’m not the only one out there who thinks that 2 is a random number and that it’s pretty outdated.
S~
amanda
don’t mean to pick on you amanda but how are you ‘sure’ about this. again, there’s an assumption being made that’s based on your (most people’s) biased perception that bi-sexuals aren’t either hetero or homo and so must choose between the two.
i’m not arguing about the answer, i’m trying to get you to see your own (most people’s) prejudice in the how they view the question.
there’s a lot of talk about bisexuality in these comments from people who aren’t bisexual but not much reflection from these same folk about their own ingrained prejudices.
to understand my point of view, look at it this way. how progressive are you really? if you’re white and i’m a black person telling you that you’ve got ingrained prejudices toward black people then you would probably agree that you should take a good look at yourself.
Well, I’m bi and telling you that you’ve got ingrained prejudices towards bisexuals. Don’t waste our time by lecturing me about bisexuality. Certainly you wouldn’t lecture me about being black. Check yourself people, that’s what I’m asking for.
We know that there are pressures on gay people and trans people to closet themselves. Why would there not be pressure on bisexual people to similarly closet themselves? We know that gay people and trans people do closet themselves. Why would bisexuals be immune from that pressure?
Amanda is not saying that bisexuals must choose. She is saying that they are told that they must. She isn’t defending biphobia, but describing its potential harm. This is like the difference between saying that gay people can choose to be straight, and pointing out that homophobic lies to that effect put pressure on gay people to reject homosexuality.
And as a bisexual, I can tell you that the pressure you’re referring to does, too, exist–and other bisexuals on this thread have talked about it as well. I can also tell you that at different times, in one direction or another, I have conformed to it, and presented my identity in ways that deemphasized or negated potentially bisexual interpretations.
Ug, mythago way to take one sentence out of context. Look, I’m NOT TRYING TO SAY THAT IT DOESN’T EXIST.
I’m just saying that it isn’t very prevalent in Minneapolis compared to the way it sound like it is other places from this thread. End of point. Sorry if you apparently think that a straight girl couldn’t possibly know what’s going on in the GLBT community even if I’ve been heavily involved in it for years because I choose to be supportive of my friends and their rights. I’ll make sure I never butt my straight nose in your oh so mysterious queer business ever again if you really feel that way. And here I thought the GLBT as a whole would appreciate having allies instead of mocking them. I know my friends sure appreciate my support.
piny writes: “Hm. Is it possible that biphobes could hear “queer”? as “lesbian”? or “gay,”? when they encounter a queer-identified bisexual person in a same-sex relationship?”
Yes, exactly. Though, I would extend that to people who are not even “biphobes.” I think it’s an automatic reaction because this world is so ingrained to look at things as “either/or,” not “both/and.”
HC
Wookie Monster: You’re on target, and I agree that you were apparently taken out of context. Also: your comments make me sort of homesick for Minneapolis; the queer community — and the population of GLBT people — is large enough to not be completely homogenized and defensive. I feel lucky to have grown up there; sometimes I don’t fully appreciate how difficult it is for some people who grew up in more repressive cities, towns, or families than I did.
I’m also thinking about a difficulty I wonder if you ever face yourself from time to time: As a straight girl hanging out with lesbians, do you ever encounter any assumptions about how you might be denying your “real” sexuality? How, if so many of your friends are queer, you probably are too, and are just in denial about it? I mean, you wouldn’t bother to call yourself an “ally,” necessarily, or go out of your way to be supportive, etc., would you, unless maybe you care a little bit too much? I’m not saying this to be mean, and I certainly don’t think this way. But I know that some of my straight friends (as recently as last week — even up there in that Queertopia of the North, Mpls) have complained about this from time to time.
And I certainly experienced it myself, before I stopped thinking of myself as a straight girl who liked to sleep with girls now and again and spent ten years believing I was really a lesbian after all. I actually felt for a while kind of sheepish, and like maybe they’d been right. I had after all spent a long time denying that I was a lesbian, when I’d known in my heart all along that I was a total queer.
Anyway, I think it’s a similar dynamic to the all-too-common “you bisexuals just can’t cope with the truth about your sexuality” bullshit we’ve been talking about here.
I didn’t intend to hi-jack this thread, but it seems to have run down some anyway so…
You know Alphabitch, you may be right, I may be bi and am open to the possiblity, but I have never explored that aspect of my sexuality so it seems kind of wrong to claim it. Some of the non-exploration has to do with being involved with a guy when I found myself attracted to a woman (and I’m a very monogomous kind of person), but a lot of it has to do with a deep feeling of distaste I feel for “experimenting” at the expense of someone else’s feelings. I’ve heard the same complain that BritGirlSF made far above about straight girls experimenting hurting the lesbian/bi girl that they are experimenting with far too many times to explore it casually and have never had an attraction that went past casual interest in a woman. I try not to hurt other people if I can avoid it at all.
I’ve never really had a confrontation about it though. I have discussed it with my friends and these discussions have just reinforced my feelings on the subject. Everyone else has just accepted that when I say I’m straight, it means I’m straight and I’m involved in the community because it matters to people who matter to me.
BTW, ally is something that I’ve picked up from being called it, rather than something I have labled myself. There are many orgs within the GLBT community here that include allies in their activities/goals/mission statements/etc. I started hanging out at District 202 (which is a youth hangout for GLBT and allies right there in the mission statement) with friends when I was 15 was probably the first time I was labled “ally” and it’s just stuck with me as a good way to descirbe myself.
Really the more I travel and talk to people from other places the more I realize that Minneapolis is a really frickin’ cool place to be, with really cool people and communities all around. Of course there are idiots here too, but there just seems to be less of them and they’re genergally the ones who have to be careful about what they do and say here, not the progressives.
OK so you’re not saying the problem doesn’t exist, you’re just saying it doesn’t exist in Minneapolis. I still think you are wrong, and I still think that you’re just not seeing it for the same reason I stated above. I seriously doubt that Minneapolis is some kind of amazing prejudice-free bisexual mecca. I mean, there are hundreds of gay bashings in San Francisco, no place is immune to prejudice, no matter how wonderful its reputation as a safe haven may be.
Nope never even said it didn’t exist in Minneapolis. I said that Minneapolis is a very bi-friendly GLBT community and that I have never experienced it (and don’t think that my friends have either). I have also said several times that no community is free of idiots with biases, but that they seem to be less prevalent in Minneapolis in the case of biphobia.
And Josh, I wouldn’t say it doesn’t exist in Minneapolis either, but in any community that large it’s possible not to have to hang out all the time with people who feel that way. You might encounter it, but feels more like something that a couple of individuals might be thinking and saying, rather than getting the impression all lesbians think this way. The GLBT community there is less monolithic than it is in, for example, a smaller community here in the Bible Belt where I live now. That was my experience there, in any case. Here, where there are fewer queers — and rather more genuine hostility & blatant homophobia from the surrounding community — there is a greater tendency to “groupthink” and try to marginalize any who don’t share your idea about what it means to be in the group. I find that pretty hard to live with, and it’s probably the biggest reason I don’t date lesbians here — at least not the ones who are really attached to the “community.” (And it’s not just the biphobia thing, either)
as a bi woman, i have to say that i am aggravated by the biphobia in the glbt community.
however, i also have to say that i think that homophobia in the straight communities is a much bigger problem. there’s a difference between having a hard time getting a date or having the people at my favorite coffee shop look at me askance when i bring an opposite sex sweetie and realizing that the group of young men who were talking loudly about my butch friend and i might be waiting in the parking lot for us to walk to the car or realizing that i now work somewhere where if my next partner is female, i can’t get her on my health insurance.
i’m willing to do a little consciousness raising in the local glbt community about how swell and datable i am, and i’m willing to work on my own internalized biphobia which makes me think “aaagh, they’re lesbians, they’ll never want to date me!” sometimes.
but i think there needs to be major societal change including legislation to work on the fact that homophobia against me as a queer can be lifethreatening.
i’m curious as to why (almost) everyone here is describing bisexuality as some sort of half & half phenomenon?
so, let me guess: same-sex attraction is the Guinness & opposite-sex attraction is Harp’s Lager, right?
bisexuality is not simply analogous to lesbian or gay or het sexuality. it is not “in the middle” of homosexuality & heterosexuality – it ain’t a linear continuum, folks…
however, i also have to say that i think that homophobia in the straight communities is a much bigger problem.
Nobody has claimed otherwise. But let’s not play the game where we can shut down discussion of any issue by saying “here’s something worse!”
And here I thought the GLBT as a whole would appreciate having allies instead of mocking them.
Yes, we’re ever so grateful that you support us, except of course when anybody dares to think about questioning your hipness and how well you grok queer issues, and then you’ll get snippy about how thoughtless we are.
I didn’t take your remark out of context at all. You said that it seemed to you, a straight woman with queer friends, that there wasn’t much biphobia in your community. I and others have pointed out that you may not be the most likely person to make that evaulation accurately.