Very few issues fill me with despair like thinking about Israel and Palestine.
I don’t understand why, when American Jews lean left, virtually all the major lobbies and organizations representing American Jews are on the far right. (Groups like AIPAC are strongly in favor of the Iraq invasion and have loyally supported Bush’s policies). Why, oh why, can’t we have a representative Jewish lobby?
(Speaking of which, see Glenn Greenwald’s recent posts on the ADL’s extreme reluctance to call out major right-wing figures for casually slinging around trivializing Nazi and Holocaust comparisons — 1 2 3 4 — even though they jump to criticize such important left-wing figures as an anonymous poster on Moveon.Org’s message board. Again, why do we American Jews — most of whom are liberal democrats — accept right-wing partisan hacks representing us in Washington?)
(But Glenn, you’ve missed a major example — the way that the ADL has never found time to criticize the word “Feminazi,” coined by Rush L., which Rush and other major right-wingers have been using nonstop for almost 20 years).
I’ve given up on any possibility of an honest debate or engagement with 99% of Israel’s supporters. I get it: Anyone who criticizes Israel, ever, in anything but the mildest of terms, is an anti-semite. (Edited to add the following sentence:) Meanwhile, far too many of Israel’s defenders are far too quick to dismiss any but the mildest criticism of Israel as anti-semitic. Rootless Cosmopolitan reports that Archbishop Desmond Tutu has now been branded an anti-semite, and St. Thomas University has accordingly cancelled a scheduled speech by Tutu:
Having asked sane and rational people to believe that Jimmy Carter is a Holocaust denier ((Tony is exaggerating here; Carter was called all sorts of foul things by Israel’s partisans, but they stopped short — just barely short — of calling him a Holocaust denier.)) simply for pointing out the obvious about the apartheid regime Israel maintains in the occupied territories, the same crew now want us to believe that Archbishop Desmond Tutu is an anti-Semite. No jokes! That was the reason cited for Tutu being banned from speaking at St. Thomas University in Minneapolis. “We had heard some things he said that some people judged to be anti-Semitic and against Israeli policy,” explained university official Doug Hennes.
Since the above quote includes the word “apartheid,” which people are bound to object to, I’ll point out this post by Tony Karon defending his (and Jimmy Carter’s) use of the term. (Karon, who is Jewish, is branded “self-hating” rather than anti-Semitic.)
Also branded anti-Semites: Stephen Walt and John Mearsheimer, Harvard and Columbia University of Chicago professors, authors of the current best-seller The Israel Lobby. Neither of them has a single documented instance of anti-Semitism, but they’ve published a scholarly book criticizing Israel, so they’re anti-Semites. Daniel Levy’s review of the book in Haaretz is critical and balanced, the most reasonable commentary on the book I’ve read so far.
UPDATE: Here’s the fourth post from Glenn Greenwald on the ADL’s apparent bias.
I do not find, personally, that I as an individual suffer any major roadblocks in my life because I am of Jewish descent.
I would surmise that that has to do with where you live, who you work with & who your neighbors are. Although I wouldn’t go as far as Soopermouse’s rhetoric, I find it unquestionable that Jews, as a whole, are an oppressed group in the USA. Perhaps not as oppressed as other groups, but oppressed nonetheless.
I am starting to feel a little tiny bit insulted when reading that the 2 millenia of oppression my people suffered has to be compared with the only oppression Americans have experience of in order to be quantified as such?
Slavery is the only oppression Americans have any experience with? HUH? Genocide, civil war, occupation, forcible annexation and oppression of territories, cities being burned, sexual oppression to a level that is slavery in all but name are just a few of the instances of oppression that Americans of one sort or another have suffered.
Which is exactly what makes the creation of Israel not a colonialist act- just a mere reparation for almost 2 millenia of oppression, and now some people want to take even that little concession away from us.
It’s both. No one alive in Palastine in 1948 had the slightest thing to do with Hadrian or the destruction of the original Israel. And Hadrian was a Roman emperor, not a Palastinian leader. The Palastinians were just more of his subjects. So, again, why should they suffer for the crimes of the Roman emperor?
I do not find, personally, that I as an individual suffer any major roadblocks in my life because I am of Jewish descent.
Anecdotal evidence suddenly works for you? Odd.
Colin Powell would probably tell us that he hasn’t suffered any major roadblocks in his life because he’s black, too. And yet we know that black people, as a group, haven’t done as well as Colin Powell.
Arguably, Jews as a group haven’t done badly, either. The “bad old days” of limited educational and vocational opportunities are largely over – although who knows where the Jewish population would be now if their parents and grandparents had been able to go to Harvard?
I think it very likely that – while individual Jews like Amp may have little or no feeling of oppression, particularly today – a considerable part of that is an outcome of extremely adept maneuvering on the part of the Jewish folks themselves, such as the creation of parallel institutions, not the liberality of the society. The Jews have gotten pretty good at having a decent life in the interstices between pogroms.
Does it obviate oppression if your community has really good tools for coping with it?
I don’t live in the USA. I live in Britain. I am a Romanian Jewish woman living in Britain, so I can only speak from my own experience. There is a lot more to the world than the USA :P
Does the oppression exist? Yes. It manifests itself in many an insidious form, and it was first funy then sad to notice that when ticking Ethnicity: Romanian on the application forms I got a lot more interviews than when ticking “Ethnicity= Jewish”. An interesting experiment I recommend to all my friends.
Is it opression when the Israeli flag is the only flag that cannot be displayed at a music festival- where normally everyone displays their flags because “our visitors might be offended”?
Is it oppression when I was asked to go home and change my David’s Star decorated top because a Muslim colleague foud it offensive?
“I would surmise that that has to do with where you live, who you work with & who your neighbors are.”
Well, I’ve lived in California, New York, and Iowa.
Have I encountered some anti-semitism? Yes. It appears, for instance, in our moderation cue, in shockingly blatant fashion. When I was in college, there were anti-semitic undertones to the pro-Palestinian group’s positions.
Has this ever been a roadblock to me wanting to accomplish what I want to do? No.
I think Soopermouse’s rhetoric is overblown — if applied to contemporary America — and before I have sympathy for phrases like “scraps from the master’s table,” I’m going to want to see some data about concrete problems that are caused for Jews within contemporary American society.
And no, I don’t think “our dress violates dress codes” counts — at least, not for oppression of Jews as Jews, so much as oppression for Jews as non-Christians. I’ll happily hop onboard the idea that non-Christians are oppressed for being non-Christians in contemporary American society.
I don’t live in Britain. From the vague research I did in college, it certainly seemed as though continental Europe had its head much further up its anti-semitic ass than occurs in the contemporary U.S.
Soopermouse, I accept those examples at face value as examples of oppression — although frankly, the way they suggest that Jews are oppressed in order to favor Muslims has a funky smell, to me.
Soopermouse:
Is your comment #99 a response to my mention of the opppression of Blacks here in the US in comment #94?
Diane:
I also thought of Liberia when I was writing my comment #94, but I did not have enough historical information to do so with any substance. I think the parallels you raise are very interesting and worth thinking about in some detail.
“Anecdotal evidence suddenly works for you? Odd.”
Was it presented as definite evidence? Oddly, I thought it was presented as an “I” statement.
“such as the creation of parallel institutions”
For example? (and your proof of its current ameliorative affects?)
Has this ever been a roadblock to me wanting to accomplish what I want to do?
It’s certainly been a roadblock for me in some ways. From friendships to work environment to family relations. In some locations & times, I’ve been unwilling to disclose my Jewish roots for fear of reprisal.
When the phrase, “they didn’t even jew them down,” is not unheard of, there are roadblocks. (ETA: And you don’t need to ask what it means.)
When there are organized and not entirely insignificant groups that target Jews for violence & harrasment, there are roadblocks.
When “hidden Jewish roots” are the subject of scandal (admittedly on both sides of the issue) in a Senatorial election, there are roadblocks.
When people feel the need to keep their ancestry or religion undisclosed, there are roadblocks.
As I said, the oppression may not be as severe as for other groups, but that doesn’t mean that it doesn’t exist.
“As I said, the oppression may not be as severe as for other groups, but that doesn’t mean that it doesn’t exist.”
Thanks for rooting those examples, Jake.
Not necessarily “in order to favour Muslims”. But I have been repeatedly made to feel like it was in my best interest to not show that I am Jewish.
I think the worst part of anti semitism is that it is so engrained in the fabric of the western society that pointing it out is regarded as shameless self promotion, and whining.
As for the oppression as non Christian… I fully agree. Yet my Hindy colleagues can get time off for Diwali, my Muslim colleagues can get time off and certain allowances for their religious holidays and daily prayer specifications. I don’t know if I am the only person who has to use my holiday time for religious ( mostly for tradition following purposes from my POV, but still), but it looks that way.
Is it because the Hindu and Muslim communities in my area are big enough to warrant such allowances? Is it oppression that we are ALL forced to follow the Christian holidays?
Each time I ask these questions within the local Jewish community, I get told to shut up and not create trouble. I wouldn’t have even thought to put my ethnicity as Romanian and not Jewish until I was advised to do so, and the change i noted was… impressive in lack of a better word.
For example? (and your proof of its current ameliorative affects?)
Brandeis.
You seem to have weird ideas about what concepts require proof.
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Brandeis.
Huh? How about the YMHA?
I have seen, personally and via the media, several instances of anti-semitism in NYC–which one would normally think of as a pretty safe place–in the last month or so. Anti-semitism in the US is not dead, but it’s hardly as respectable as, say, racism or anti-immigration prejudice. But if the existence of prejudice in the US or other countries is the benchmark for when a group of people should have a country of their own, shouldn’t gay people and women also have their own countries? I’m not sure how that would work out socially, though…
As I was reminded over at Pandagon, the war on the war on christmas is also blatantly anti-semitic. Check out the furor over the rabbi who insisted that Sea-Tac Airport put up a menorah if it was going to have christmas trees. What was the response? Sea-Tac officials, rather than put up the menorah or make plans to put it up the following year, took down the christmas trees. Wonderful friendly calls to Seattle’s Jewish community followed immediately.
Ampersand and Mandolin say they don’t feel oppressed as Jews; they have both claimed their insulating priviledge.
But to deny that other Jews, with or without equal amounts of insulating priviledge, also don’t experience the oppression of anti-semitism is very suprising.
I’m interested in seeing more comments from Ampersand and Mandolin regarding this.
Good point Eva. If intead of this discussion being about Jews it would have been about women, how would we have called the women claiming that Patriarchy as not a real problem since they didn’t feel oppressed by it ( point borrowed from David’s blog)?
Are we the only minority weho is not allowed to define its own oppression?
“Are we the only minority weho is not allowed to define its own oppression?”
I’m really sick of this line of argument. Amp and I are Jews also. Therefore, we’re included in the discussion of defining our own oppression. Or are you saying we’re not allowed to define our own experience?
Eva, before I agree that this kind of discrimination is pervasive and systemic, I would really like to see concrete sociological data proving the disbenefits to being Jewish in the US. We can analyze other oppressed groups’ oppression along these axes. I don’t remember having seen data about Jewish people or families along these lines.
I appreciate Jasper’s experiences, and said so. That goes part of the way for me.
last I have seen mandolin, you denied the oppression because you have not experienced it yourselves.
“last I have seen mandolin, you denied the oppression because you have not experienced it yourselves.”
And you champion it because you say you’ve experienced it yourself — in another country, one excluded by any opinions I’ve expressed. We’re both Jewish, neh? We can’t wash out each other’s opinions with shouting. You don’t get to cry that you can’t define our group’s oppression based on your impressions of the world while erasing my right to do the same.
Oppression requires systemic, pervasive discrimination. Show me the data. Or, if you can’t, at least argue that there is no data because of anti-semitic assumptions in sociology.
And here is the problem with that: the fact that you and Amp believe that the lack of perceived (by you) systemic oppression of the Jews in the USA somehow gives you the right to deny the oppression of the Jews worldwide and especially that experienced by the Jews living in Israel.
I can show you the data showing systemic pervasive discrimination worldwide against Jews, and contextualize that the movement of freeing us from that oppression has the existence of the State of Israel at the centre of it.
Except for the little tiny part where both you and Amp are denying the oppression, right?
I do not want to deny the experience of the American Jews. But maybe, just maybe, you guys need to remember that the world is not only the USA, that the Holocaust did not happen in the USA and just because you guys didn’t experience oppression at the levels we did here doesn’t give you the right to attack what is, in many cases, the only home a lot of Jews can think of, namely Israel.
Attacking Israel is anti semitic because Israel is central to the survival of our people. And attacking Israel while willingly ignoring not only the openly stated purposes of the opponents of Israel including the Palestinian leadership is antisemitic and destructive.
Israel does not owe anything to people who refuse to even recognize its existence and who have demonstrated that their main purpose is its destruction. Refusing to acknowledge that, as dmeonstrated at Camp David II and by their own declarations, is blind and homicidal the same way the great powers who ignored Germany’s openly stated plans before WW2 were. We have seen the results of this sort of ignorance, but from ther comfort of your homes you can afford to not paying attention to the whole problem because the point might just not square with your opinion.
But then again American exceptionalism has to strike again, doesn’t it?
Okay, Soopermouse, I’m pretty much forced to think that you’re deliberately or ignorantly misreading everything Amp and I have written.
The straw man over there is missing all kinds of limbs, though. Good job attacking it.
Meanwhile, until you start addressing what I’ve said instead of what you imagine I’ve said, I’m done talking to you.
Attacking Israel is anti semitic because Israel is central to the survival of our people.
I’m sorry, Soopermouse, but I think that is utter bullshit. Unless, of course, by “attacking” you mean calling for the destruction or dismantling of Israel. I get the feeling, though, that by “attacking” you really mean “criticising” (including “criticising the Israeli government or their policies”).
Also, judging from your comments, I think you’d be a lot closer in that sentence if you replace the words, “anti semitic,” with the single, hyphenated word, “anti-zionist.”
There is certainly room for serious criticism of Israeli governments and policies that don’t qualify as either anti-semitic or anti-zionist. If you’re not willing to admit that, you are severely reducing your possible contributions to the conversation.
Also, wrt to the above quoted sentence, I believe that this is demonstrably false. Nearly 2000 years of history indicates otherwise.
Mandolin, I’ll do some research and get back to you. I don’t know what I will find, but I appreciate the opportunity to share the results.
And yes, you’re right that your response to Jasper’s post does count for something, in my haste to post I overlooked it.
I have observed a great range of experience in the life of Jews in the US, including great success and great failure. How much of this is a result of anti-semitism, I hope to say more on in my next post to this thread.
I really look forward to seeing what you come up with, Eva. Whatever happens, I’ll be happy to boost it up to its own post, if that’s okay with you.
I don’t understand why, when American Jews lean left, virtually all the major lobbies and organizations representing American Jews are on the far right.
I was wondering about that myself!