Jack at Random Fate “would take it as a great favor if you would please stop posting every instance of insane behavior by someone who is nominally supportive of your political opponents, because YOUR SIDE IS JUST AS BAD.”
I haven’t been completely innocent on this score, I have to admit. Still, Jack’s point is well taken.
Link via Rachel Ann, who is not feeling optimistic about post-election America.
UPDATE: Just to clarify, I was intending for this post to address the “look at what this individual did” sort of complaints, not larger-scale issues like organized attempts to reduce ballot access.
That said, I think the widespread and very dishonest Democratic campaign to keep Nader off of the ballot shows that many Democratic Party leaders have the same disdain for democracy that Republicans do. What the Democrats did in Oregon, for example, should be inexcusable to anyone who isn’t anti-democracy.
I don’t think Jack leaves room between the one instance of crazy behaviour means they’re all crazy and the they’re all the same. I mean, we do have the capacity to look at the whole business, from loyalty oaths to vandalism, from phony registrations to suppression tactics, and say whether one side really does encompass and encourage more vile behaviour than the other. We don’t have to suspend our capacity for judgement just because it’s possible to use the lunacy for more lunacy.
That said, it’s important to keep in mind that there are certainly forty million people voting for each of the candidates who are participating fully, honorably, and honestly in the system, and that even if (as I would argue) the Republican party organization has betrayed ordinary Republicans with its dishonesty, secrecy and incompetence, that doesn’t mean it’s at all appropriate to disrespect those voters.
,
-V.
While I agree that there are extreme elements on both sides of any issue — including a presidential campaign — I must disagree that progressives are “just as bad.” The ultra-right has been goading the “mass media,” and by extension the mass population, toward that position for years now, manipulating the press to be “fair” by reporting that we’re all just the same so as not to be labeled “liberal.”
Well, we’re not all the same, and to say so doesn’t make us liberal.
To take two extreme incidents and use them to illustrate anything is reckless — but to use them to illustrate so-called “anger” in this electoral process is truly disingenuous. Jack’s extreme instances to illustrate plain old nuttiness, but to call them “anger” denigrates legitimate anger at the way this administration has lied, cheated and bullied its way into office, and is now trying to use the same tactics to stay there, or the way John Kerry has shifted his positions to suit the voters he’s trying to shore up.
In short, it’s just wrong to use the actions of two obviously unstable people to prove how “anger” has poisoned the election.
I haven’t been clued in to these small news blurbs of random acts of individual lunacy. I’ve been more concerned with the GOP’s work to disenfranchise Black voters in traditionally Democratic districts en masse, the security problems and election stealing potential of our dubious voter technology a la Diebold, and the outright lies, the manipulation, and the brutality of our current administration.
I’ve spent most of my adult life well away from either conservative or liberal political affiliation, but in the last election and this one I’ve moved pretty strongly toward liberalism precisely because liberal behavior hasn’t been anything like comparable with conservative behavior. On both individual and organized levels, the right is engaging in a whole lot more thuggish, suppressive behavior; while there are liberal and left-wing jerks and worse, the people doing the good work of informing voters, registering voters, and supporting honest voting are very predominantly to the left of center. There is nothing in Democratic or progressive action to compare to the Florida purging of rolls, the (just struck down!) Ohio effort to snarl up polling places and individuals, the fraudulent calls and flyers in Virginia and elsewhere trying to keep minorities away from voting, and so on.
It’s always good to be alert to abuse and just plain scumminess on all sides, because none of us have the luxury of self-righteousness. But there’s no equivalence here.
I guess I agree about individual behavior, and I think progressives are fooliing ourselves if we think there aren’t violent, scary, or just obnoxious people in our ranks, too. Not to mention that there are plenty of partisan Democrats who aren’t in any way progressive.
But I think it’s really wrong to move from that to saying that the parties are both behaving badly. The Republicans want to balance accusations of voter intimidation with accusations of voter fraud. And that’s bullshit. The flipside of Republican voter intimidation isn’t Democratic fraud: it’s Democratic registration and GOTV efforts. When push comes to shove, Democrats want African-Americans, Latinos and Native Americans to vote, and Republicans want them not to vote. That reflects Republican strategy, not racism: if those voters were likely to vote Republican, the GOP would be doing everything possible to get them out. But I think it’s pretty disingenuous to suggest that encouraging people to vote is morally equivilent to not encouraging them to vote.
If someone turns up evidence of systematic voter fraud, I’ll change my tune. And I’m not saying it couldn’t happen. But I’ve seen no evidence of it, and there’s a whole lot of evidence of systematic Republican attempts to supress voting.
This makes me think of how you can’t see Jerry Falwell’s name mentioned in liberal media without the infamous “feminists and gays caused 9/11” quote being repeated but Eminem is being widely discussed in The Nation, Alternet, and Common Dreams as a “generational hero” without any mention of his words “all bitches is hoes” (or insert other Eminem woman/homesexual hate speech snippet here).
I’ve discovered as my politics have become more and more radical that I have had to give up most of my preconceived notions about exactly who “my side” is. If I have to work with a prolife representative to stop exploitative labor because she’s leading the way while more liberal politicians drag their feet, then that’s what got to happen. I’ve gotten better at putting aside other differences to focus on specific issues.
I this is the problem with voter intimidation. Before 9/11/01 we didn’t think about it (unless you were a minority) because for the most part why would you think someone would try and stop you from voting. I mean the 60’s are over right. That whole Civil Rights thing has been taken care of.
Yet one of the reasons that the 2000 election was so contested was because there was voter intimdation and it was reported, but in this day and age what’s proof without pictures.
Now once again we are worried about something that should have been erased from the American political scene.
So what do you do? You vote, you report anything strange you see when you vote. Write it down and get details.
But here is the other thing we have to remember. It’s not the Republican party that is only causing this. It’s fear. It’s the fear that they or someone else may try and stop a person from voting. That stops voting a lot faster than the actual imtimdating and things.
So don’t spread the fear! Make people understand that it’s more important to vote than to sit home afraid to vote.
For me, it’s not a question of the Democrats being “good” and the Republicans being “bad.” Politics is a dirty business — though it shouldn’t be — and both sides dip into the sleaze sometimes. The Democrats sometimes do things I think are wrong, such as Gore’s attempt to get the overseas military ballots thrown out in Florida in 2000. I would not try to claim that the Democrats are all sweetness and light and never do anything reprehensible.
But the Democrats are not as bad as the Republicans and I think we need to stop letting them say so in order to appear reasonable.
While the Democrats pull some electioneering stunts and some individual Democrats do worse, there is no organized, intentional campaign to win through deception, misinformation, voter intimidation, push-polling, registration destruction, and election-fixing on the Democratic side like there is on the Republican side. There is no so-called “liberal” media spreading these lies and distortions over the airwaves on a daily basis like there is on FOX News, Limbaugh, Hannity, etc.
The Democrats do some screwy things sometimes, but, by and large, they are willing to put their positions out in the “marketplace of ideas” that the conservatives so like to talk about, and let them compete against Republican positions. The Republicans do everything possible to avoid putting their positions up against those of the Democrats for a fair and even contest.
To me, this indicates one thing: At some level, individual or as a group, they know that their ideas are intellectually and morally bankrupt and thus will not carry them to victory. But, instead of modifying their positions and forgoing some of their self-serving agenda, they try to sneak in and implement a far-right agenda under the noses of the American people. And that’s wrong.
And that’s why our side isn’t just as bad.
“While the Democrats pull some electioneering stunts and some individual Democrats do worse, there is no organized, intentional campaign to win through deception, misinformation, voter intimidation, push-polling, registration destruction, and election-fixing on the Democratic side like there is on the Republican side.”
As an Oregon resident who personally witnessed and experienced deceit and election fraud openly perpetrated against an independent candidate, I disagree that there is no organized Democratic campaign to block the democratic process.
If Democrats truly believed in the “marketplace of ideas” then Ralph Nader’s name would be on the Oregon, California, Ohio and Hawaii ballot. Unfortunately, Democrats took a cue from the successful tactics of Republicans in Florida and decided if you can’t convince some people to vote for your candidate then preventing them from casting the vote of their choice for another person is what you do.
“I’ve been more concerned with the GOP’s work to disenfranchise Black voters in traditionally Democratic districts en masse, the security problems . . .”
As a black man I am so insulted with this disenfranchisement of the black vote crap. How dare these so-called black leaders say I am too dumb to vote on computer voting machines. How dare these “I sympathise with your plight” Democrats allege that I am too stupid to know when I need to vote. Don’t they have to go and get their trust fund check or have some freakin’ pygmy to champion? How dare you say I cannot find my way to the polls at my local elementary school or library. How dare you register felons several times over and say that these men who betrayed our race and our women deserve the right to vote. Go and find another pet project — I am sure the Iraqis and the Afghan’s need some help in their voting process. Guess what I will still be here when you are bored or daddy threatens to take your money away if you continue to hang out with those “black guys”. This is such crap — go strap yourself to a Sequoia — they want your insulting assumptions more than we do.
I hear all this crap while Cook County Illinois loses my wife’s absentee ballot request — how many other military ballots will not be sent from Illinois? We believe in Democrat values, my wife grew up a socialist, but because it was a military application I guess we will just have to misplace it. Where are you when Florida, Pennsyvania and other states TRULY disenfranchised the military vote (many of whom strongly dislike cRummy and Wolfoditz). Where is the ACLU when it comes to protecting the rights of those who protect their rights to screw up the democratic process? You will fight for the rights of felons and other prisoners, but not the military. In 2000, over 1500 military members were disenfranchised in the state of Florida. I voted for Gore, but it did not get counted because the ACLU and the Democrats came squarely down against the military. All they cared about are people that actually believed the day to vote was Wednesday? I am so offended, not by the Democrats, but by those citizens who call themselves Democrats and use black people as a tool to get what they want. Don’t get me wrong, Republican’s have their problems too. But for someone to say that Democrats are just “trying to get out the vote” are lost in an ecstasy induced euphoric state.
Remember, no matter who wins this election on Wednesday night, we must all support that person. Forget about the private citizens looking out for their own good, concentrate on the country healing. We are all Americans and many men and women lost their lives to give us the right to dissent, don’t abuse it. Just three years ago the people of Afghanistan were killed for speaking the hate about our leaders that we have heard from citizens who purport to be in each party. From 1990-2004 the U.S. Military, under both President Clinton and President Bush has provided the freedom to choose their leader to millions of people. When you vote and you hear someone talking about the war and lies and disrespecting our President or our Senators . . . let them know that the best thing we have given people around the world is freedom to vote and, inter alia, freedom of dissent. In the last 12 years we have abused that freedom of dissent to lodge personal attacks against our leaders. In the military we call that contempt toward officials, punishable by a dismissal from the service, 12 months in the Federal Pen (not with Martha) and forfeiture of all pay and allowances.
We have the freedom to voice dissent not use provoking speeches and gestures or inciting disrespect for our leaders. When you go to the polls remember, whoever wins, is our duely elected leader. Our support must go behind him. I don’t like the policies of either candidate, but I would not disrespect his position nor the process by which he was elected. People outside of both parties have bastardized the system (not the parties themselves, but those who want a certain party to win).
I am sorry, but I have lost too many friends who died spreading democracy and freedom from Bosnia to Iraq. It is just ashame — that those who will see democracy and freedom will look at us and how we abuse the process as an example of democracy. How can someone look at us and think that it creates a strong sense of national unity or is something good when we show so much disrespect for our leaders. I don’t mean dissent, I mean disrespect. It must stop on November 3rd and never happen again.
Sorry, I kinda lost it.
Sorry, butt-headed policies are still butt-headed on Nov. 3. And criticizing them is still patriotic on Nov. 3.
You want to live where leaders are respected? J, meet Vladimir – or Fidel – or Kim – or the Princes of Saud. In this country we reserve the right to say anything we please about the SERVANTS of the people. We would rather be respectful, if they merit respect. But if they screw up, we let them have it. And I don’t give a flying fuck about military regulations, last time I looked, they only applied to those currently in the chain of command (ie, current military), and I am a civilian, as are any number of retired generals who have criticized the prosecution of the war.
All these claims would be much stronger if you provided some links to document them.
For instance, what Democratic party official or activist has said that black people are “too dumb to vote on computer voting machines” or “too stupid to know when… to vote”? Who has said that black people in particular are too stupid to find polling stations? Have these claims really be said in any widespread way by Democrats? If so, then finding supporting links from respectable sources should be easy.
Similarly, links to whatever you’re talking about regarding felons, and to evidence to support your claim about Democrats working to suppress the military vote or deny military folks ballots, would make your claims much more credible.
Finally, JStevenson, in the US we have every right to criticize our leaders any way we want to, including by expressing contempt for them. That’s the first amendment, and I think it’s a good idea.
Sorry, I kinda lost it.
From what I’ve read of yours here, I’m not convinced you ever had it.
Some of the attempts to intimidate black voters do assume that they’re stupid. It’s worth pointing out that it’s the people attempting to intimidate are making that assumption, but you’re probably right that it’s not likely to work. But a lot of attempts at voter suppression don’t rely on people being stupid, and these are the kind of tactics being used by the Republican party, rather than by individuals. For instance, there have been extremely dubious mass challenges to voter regestration. These challenges have mostly been thrown out, often by Republican judges, but if they were successful they would mean that people would show up and be unable to vote. They could have an IQ of 165, and they would still be unable to vote. Similarly, the Republican party is attempting to send “observers” to polls who would gum up the works by challenging lots of voters. That would mean that would-be voters would face long waits. Since many voters have responsibilities, such as jobs to get to or kids to pick up from school, many would leave. That’s true of smart people as well as stupid ones. Most of us can’t spare 3 hours to wait to vote, no matter how intelligent we may be.
Maybe that doesn’t bother you. But I’d suggest that the right to vote is a fundamental democratic freedom and that if you don’t support it, you don’t have a lot of credibility when you start talking about “spreading democracy.” Why would you want to spread something you don’t even value at home.
As for this:
We have the freedom to voice dissent not use provoking speeches and gestures or inciting disrespect for our leaders.
That’s just silly. Find me the place in the Constitution where it says that you have the right to free speech unless you incite disrespect for our leaders. Find me a time in American history when people didn’t say things that were disrespectful of leaders. There is nothing more American than the unqualified right to dissent. There is nothing more un-American than attempting to take away that right.
So let me get this straight–you’re insulted over people pointing out that it’s slimy and scummy to falsely accuse someone of being a felon and challenging their right to vote? It’s happened, and it’s happened overwhelmingly to Blacks. Let me say it again: People who were not felons were falsely listed as being felons, and denied their right to vote. And Florida was gearing up to do it again, getting purge lists ready (of people from predominately Black districts). You’ll just have to excuse my horrible, patronizing attitude in thinking that people should be able to go to the polls without breaking a sweat.
Sorry, the evidence is too long and too extensive to be anything but angry about it.
[A]rmed plainclothes officers from the Florida Department of Law Enforcement went to the homes of elderly black voters to investigate the March 2003 mayoral election. And in Pine Bluff, Arkansas, “five Republican poll watchers – including two staff members of Senator Tim Hutchinson’s office – allegedly focused exclusively on African Americans, asking them for identification and taking photographs during the first day of early voting.”
And if you think that won’t happen again for this election, think again. It already has.
In Orlando, Fla., members of the Orlando League of Voters – an African-American civic group made up of mostly elderly women that has helped turn out large numbers of Democratic voters in the city – were the subject of an intimidating house-to-house investigation by Governor Jeb Bush’s state police, who were supposedly checking out charges of electoral irregularities.
Oh, and in the same link, you’ll find that the GOP has gone and destroyed the registrations of new voters.
A voter registration outfit largely funded by the Republican National Committee is being accused of destroying the registration forms of hundreds of newly registered Democratic voters in Nevada.
I respect the democratic process too much to pooh-pooh this stuff. Even if this happened in a district that voted for the GOP, I’d still get steamed about it. The fact that it’s happening in districts that are assumed to support the opposition party, that are the focus of dirty tricks and intimidation at the hands of the current party in power–well, that’s beyond the pale. You’ll just have to excuse my patronizing attitude that we should have free and fair elections.
When Native Americans are challenged because they don’t have a photo ID (even though state and federal laws don’t require them), I’m gonna call bullshit–especially when it didn’t happen to Whites. And when the GOP makes plans to place “vote challengers” in Black precincts, I’m going to call it what it is–voter disenfranchisement. Would you call the Black Republicans who protested this plan trust-fund lefties? Would you imply they are patronizing or that they think you are stupid?
I don’t think that someone is stupid because a punch card ballot has a confusing layout or the voting district has an obsession with technology that is confusing and insecure. I think it’s a wake up call.
I will also remind you of something else–this ugly atmosphere was started by the GOP and their obsession with bringing the Clintons down. It was started by neoconservative wingnuts who thought it would be just dandy if Tim McViegh bombed the NY Times building, who accused anyone with dissenting opinions of slander and treason, who felt free to slander veterans who didn’t agree with them and make light of their sacrifices.
I am hardly going to support someone just because he’s the President. I did not support Clinton in everything he did–I thought bombing Sudan and Afghanistan were incredibly stupid moves, and I was underwhelmed by his welfare reform policies. (Also, many neocons who exhort us to support President Bush no matter what had no problems attacking Clinton. Cute double standard.) As voters, we hire the President. Even those of us who cast a ballot for the President don’t have to support him or her one hundred percent. The President is our employee, and if I think he’s screwing up, I’m going to say so.
And you know what, J? It sets me off when you twist the facts around. The disenfranchisement of American expatriates–including soldiers–is a big issue with many of us. The so-called “liberal media” didn’t fit to focus in on it that much. That hardly means that progressives don’t give a shit.
From the link:
Activists now fear that huge numbers of Americans overseas – both military and civilian – may be as disenfranchised as they were in 2000, when anywhere from 10 to 40% of overseas ballots, depending on the county, just plain never showed up. But, far from helping civilians, the Federal Voting Assistance Programme (FVAP) has dragged its feet. A small liaison office based in the Pentagon, the FVAP provides voting materials to the departments of defence and state for soldiers and civilians abroad, and preaches overseas election law to thousands of local election officials back home. [Bold mine.]
So if you want to point the finger at anyone, point it at the FVAP and the Pentagon. Don’t go pointing it at us, just because you’ve decided that we don’t give a shit. Nothing’s further from the truth.
NancyP — there is a difference between criticism and contempt.
I am all for bumper stickers that say “vote Bush out” — support “Terrorism Vote for Kerry”. This is political speech and is just fine. It is the personal attacks, such as monkey and Lurch (with both descriptions I agree) that do nothing for the democratic process.
The “I Hate Bush” statements are inciteful and disrespectful. Just because I may disagree with my mother’s policies or my teacher’s policies or the police officer’s policies does not mean that I have the right to personally attack them and disrespect them.
We are blessed with intelligence and that intelligence allows us to fashion our arguments without personal attacks, such as stupid or communist, and other rhetoric.
Voice your opinion — and you have done so eloquently. Without the need to dig in the dirt and flame such insults as jstevenson=TROLL. We have the freedom to disagree. What I find so disenheartening about those vocal democrats (not the party, but those citizens who profess to be a member of the party and hold democrat ideals) who spew bigoted (look up the definition to that word you may be suprised) rhetoric is the fact that they spew bigoted rhetoric. At least I know that Republicans are mean spirited, but to have someone who screams for everyone to have tolerance of the views of others to personally attack and show bigotry to those who do not have their views is a crying shame.
Dissent can be had without disrespecting our leaders. There are many times I have gone into court as a criminal defense attorney, where I do not agree with the views of the judge. I still lodge my dissent respectfully and forcefully. The military reference was for you, as a civilian, to use as a guide for how to dissent respectfully — the great General Zinni (my old commanding officer), General Clark, General Bolden (the first black shuttle commander), these men can all express their dissent without disrespect. That is something that we must teach our younger generation. Not the politics of hate (that goes for both sides).
Dissent on November 3rd, but still respect the office, whoever holds it.
Amp — “For instance, what Democratic party official or activist has said that black people are “too dumb to vote on computer voting machines” — I am a democrat and thankfully no “Democratic Official” has come out and said this. Just like the private citizens who send out letters for to South Carolina voters telling them that they will have a credit check at the polls. These are vocal democrats, not officials, who are saying these things.
As for saying that they are stupid — not in those words, but by saying that I am being disenfranchised because someone came to my house and said that voting will take place on Wednesday instead of Tuesday says that I am too stupid to know when to vote. We would only be disenfranchised if we believed that crap and we would have to be stupid to believe it. Hence — you must think I am too stupid to know that the vote will take place on the first Tuesday in November and not any Wednesday ever.
I suspect those fliers and things like it actually help the Democrats: people are so pissed off that they’ll make a special effort to vote. But the intent is clearly to suppress voting, and I guess I’m a little confused about why you find that less irritating than the protests against it. Isn’t the initial attempt just as insulting? And isn’t it worse, since it’s both insulting and anti-Democratic?
Anyway, as I said in my last post, the more serious attempts at voter suppression, and the ones tied to official Republican parties, don’t assume that Democrats are stupid. They assume that Democrats are busy. If you force people to come to hearings to defend their registration or if you make them wait in long lines at the polls, busy people will be disenfranchised. Is that ok with you? And if so, where do you get off talking about democracy?
Incidentally, I’d argue that the military demands a higher degree of conformity and obedience than any other institution in modern society, and as such is a lousy model for how to conduct political discourse. We don’t have that kind of hierarchy or deference in civil society, and while that means that people sometimes say things they shouldn’t, in general I’d argue that it’s a very good and healthy thing.
I respectfully disagree with jstevenson on this. I see no need to be respectful towards Bush when he shows no respect towards me. “The terrorists want Kerry to win,” which is a refrain heard over and over from his campaign is disrespectful of my intelligence therefore I have no problem with personal attacks on him. Do we even have to mention Bush’s personal attacks on McCain in the ’00 primaries? So lets hear no more garbage about the need to be respectful of our leaders. I hold the entire Shrubadminco in contempt and believe that it is very bad for the US. So why should I be respectful towards somebody whose policies are actively aimed at harming myself and others? Why should I be respectful towards someone who has so little respect for me that they lie over and over again about what they are doing and why they are doing things?
I must also disagree with proposition that “jstevenson = troll” is a flame or a personal attack. It was merely an opinion on the actions of jstevenson in that thread. An opinion that was not held by just one person. It is much like saying “Jake Squid is a reactionary,” which is not a personal attack and leaves plenty of room for me to refute.
sheelzebub — The disenfranchisment of overseas and military voters was done in Florida, by a Republican administration. In Pennsylvania, which has been corrected, it was a democratic administration. I believe both parties are at fault.
My point in that is that the ACLU is more interested in fighting for felons — on their site is a whole section for “ex-felons” — only a short Q&A about military voter disenfranchisement. It is hogwash.
As for other quotes —
1) “Joanne Bland, the director and co-founder of the National Voting Rights Museum and Institute in Selma, Ala., told CNSNews.com on Wednesday that the new computerized voting machines are going to intimidate black voters in Florida and elsewhere and suppress their vote in the November presidential election”
I am not saying that other participants in voter fraud are good or their tactics positve. But, to say the attempts to suppress are effective is saying, just like Ms. Bland — “What Bland is trying to say is voters down there [in Florida] are dumb, they are not educating themselves. She is saying that African-Americans– when it comes to voting — are intellectually inferior . . “ CNSNews.com. For a party who has a strong base in the African-American vote “It is sad that the soft bigotry of low expectations is at the core of the fundamental principles of the Democratic Party,”
I agree that the Republicans started this crap in the 1990’s. I remember speaking with my friend, a RUSH Republican, that this is going to cause a problem. Now that we are in the midst of the problem, who is going to fix it. Someone has to step up to the plate and I say it should be the democrats. But, most certainly it will be the staunch independants that are tired of the stupid infighting.
Jake — I have to recind my earlier post about Terrorism and Kerry. I too agree that is disrespectful along with the attacks on his military career.
I think Kerry did a good thing testifying in Congress. I disagree with his politics (say anything to anybody to get what you want), but he is nonetheless a patriot who did not use his father’s influence to get out of the War.
I just hope his Secretary of Defense listens to his military leaders.
As for being a Troll — I guess I may have deserved it. But, I still reserve the right to disagree with that assessment.
J, all the Dems have done over the past twelve years is step up to the plate and work with the GOP. It’s gotten us screwed six ways to Sunday, and one GOP politco likened it to date rape. Couple that with the vitrol and false accusations against liberals and progressives from the right, and frankly, I’m not in the mood to be civil anymore. I’m tired of being called a traitor, of being likened to a Nazi because I’m a feminist (as if Rush and his lunatic cronies were ever imprisoned and brutalized the way the Jews were), of being told that I hate America and don’t support our troops because I question the President and our misbegotten war. I am tired of being told that I hate people when I’m not the one who makes hateful and false accusations against my opponents. I am tired of being told that I have no right to air my views because we are fighting for freedom. I am tired of being lied to, and the administration continuing to insult my intelligence through more lies. I am tired of the terrorism hysteria and the cheap manipulation from the right.
And yet through this, we’ve tried to be reasonable. No more. I think we’ve stepped up to the plate more than enough.
It’s the GOP’s turn. I’ve had it with the neo-cons, and if they want to get anything done, they’re going to have to turn over a new leaf. They have a lot to answer for, and there will be a reckoning.
Thanks Bean — My misstep, I of course was not thinking when I said that the first Tuesday can be the first of Nov.
I am also upset with the attempts at disenfranchisment, which will attempt to make me fall for a scam. It does not assume I am stupid it attempts to make me fall for a scam. When someone tells me that I will fall for such a crock-o-‘ because I am black such as Ms. Bland did, that is calling me stupid. My problem is with those who pretend to espouse the interests of the black community and merely exploit the community for their own good.
Armed undercover officials canvass black neighborhoods to intimidate black voters? “Thank you for the information, sir — Now get the F*** of my porch.” That is what my Nana would say — is she being intimidated or disenfranchised? No, but that crap is being used to get blacks to vote for John Kerry who has a “plan”. Whatever that is.
They have a lot to answer for, and there will be a reckoning.
That would be nice, wouldn’t it…
Let’s play a little imaginary game to illustrate your position, Jstevenson.
—
You have two friends, Donnie (D) and Ronnie (R). Both of them want you to vote for them for class president. R begins to suspect that you’re going to vote for D (as members of your family have generally done in the past), so he concocts a scheme to make sure you won’t be able to vote at all. His plan is to sneak into your home at night, dress up like your father, and when you’re completely taken in by his disguise, attack you with a machete, dismember you, and hide you in the basement.
This plan, as silly as it sounds, has worked in the past. The 2000 election for class president had a remarkable number of dismemberings of D-supporters . . . but since R was elected, those dismemberings were never really investigated.
D finds out about R’s plan this time around, runs to your house, pounds on the door, and says, “Good god, man, look out, he’s trying to disguise himself as your father! He’s got a machete!”
You’ve already figured out R’s plan all on your own, and are pretty insulted that D thought R’s silly disguise could take you in. Enraged, you shout “What? Are you calling me STUPID?” and slam the door in D’s face. Cheered up by having asserted yourself thusly, you head to your school the next morning and punch your ballot for R.
—
This is my problem, Jstevenson: D was just trying to warn you. Yes, there’s probably a bit of self-interest there, and yes, maybe it was silly to think that the disguise would fool you, but . . . Christ, man. R had a machete. And he’d used it in the past. And wanted to do so again.
I can understand being a little bit insulted by D. It’s the fact that you’re not filled with white-hot fury at R that confuses me.
—Myca
I think the best thing for all of us to do is to advocate the overthrow of the Republican and the Democratic Party by those who will stop the maddness.
Dissent is good, but the attacks create retaliation and ill feelings like those Sheelsebub so appropriately feels. How can Americans who identify with either party or both parties make us whole again? I think we need to stop throwing around adjectives like unpatriotic from the Repubs as a good start. Also, we need to stop throwing around accusations such as bigot from the Dems.
Sheelzebub — I know the pain — I thought of this backlash during the nineties, but we must move above the fold and work with those moderates and Republicans that want to work together. I think if both parties denounce their “lunatic fringe” we may be off to a good start.
That said, I believe that Amp, Jack, Rachel, and conservative bloggers like madmikey and bobhayes.net all have a point that we as Americans first and party affiliation second, should consider.
Robert at Let’s Try Freedom (I found him doing a search for that stupid blacks can’t use technology quote) says —
People with my political beliefs, myself included, made a terrible mistake in the Clinton years. We decided en masse that because he was such a dreadful man, because he was so destructive to the office, that he was no longer our President. That he was illegitimate. That we hated him. . . This was a profoundly bad thing for America.
Until we all recognize this failure of American democracy we will never heal as a nation and we will fall.
So lodge your dissent, question authority, but be respectful about it on Wednesday. It is possible.
We are all getting irritable here. Without a doubt. I too think it both tacky and wrong-headed to sling “chimp” epithets about the Prez in serious policy debate, but I think it entirely OK if comics and artists do so, because we do have a 1st Amendment, and we do have a long history of political lampooning. Pick your Prez – for Clinton, it was the distinguishing characteristic on late-night tv comedy, for Nixon, the phallic nose so beloved of cartoonists.
No-one ever accused Americans of having either taste or propriety. And at least we don’t have Senators assaulting each other on the floor, resulting in coma. That went out in the early 19th century.
Oh, and of course, Clinton won with a good margin.
In 2000, Bush lost the popular vote and there were sufficient dodgy goings-on in Florida to make many observers in the US and abroad wonder exactly how legitimate the results were. Riots by fake “ordinary Floridians” who turned out to be congressional aides from states other than Florida. The ballots. The disenfranchisement of law abiding Joe Smiths who just happened to have the same name and race as other Joe Smith felons.
Bush could have seen that he didn’t have a strong mandate, and trended moderate instead of catering to his hard right base. But he didn’t, further fueling partisanship.
Myca: I am infused with white hot fury for R (good example — a little extreme, but good). The problem I have is that D is also disenfranchising my vote — see D’s suit in Florida in 2000 which shit-canned my vote and all of my friend’s duly cast votes because of a F’in postmark.
I am not miffed at the Republican or Democratic party officials (well that is not entirely true). I am miffed at the one’s that said my vote did not count because the post office did not ink the post machine sufficiently. I am miffed at those people who call me stupid and they say they are looking out for me.
It is all a bunch of crock — whether you give “smokes for votes” as Dems did or “J.D. for every ballot of an absentee” as Repubs did it is all bad and should be stopped. By telling me to watch out for R while you are stabbing me in the back does not make me feel any better. To call me stupid while you are stabbing me in the back is even worse. If people are upset about voter fraud and disenfranchisment then it all should be condemned not just the actions of the other party.
Bush could have seen that he didn’t have a strong mandate, and trended moderate instead of catering to his hard right base. But he didn’t, further fueling partisanship.
If we’d had more partisanship and less camp-followi– er, “bipartisanship,” Bush wouldn’t have gotten away with half the shit he’s pushed in the last four years.
The Democrats were not helpless, but rather greedy, cowardly, lazy and hopelessly unimaginative. Perhaps this election will start to change that, but I kind of doubt it.
I am also upset with the attempts at disenfranchisment, which will attempt to make me fall for a scam. It does not assume I am stupid it attempts to make me fall for a scam. When someone tells me that I will fall for such a crock-o-‘ because I am black such as Ms. Bland did, that is calling me stupid.
The claim that blacks will be disenfranchised by goofy voting machines and false election dates is not based on the idea that blacks are inherently stupid, but is instead based on the fact that blacks are targeted in such scams. If certain groups of white people were being targeted with such tactics, concern would be expressed over them.
Black people don’t fall for the scams because they’re stupid; they get scammed because they’re targeted. If whites were targeted at such a rate, they would be equally disenfranchised.
So, JS, I guess you are still gonna vote for “mickey mouse”?
Michael Komaschka
Southeast field director
614-203-5759 (m)
mkomaschka@georgewbush.com
Rusty Orben
Northwest field director
614-203-7041 (m)
419-482-0506 (w)
Christina Wagner
Northeast field director
614-565-3304 (m)
330-452-4854 (w)
cwagner@georgewbush.com
Melissa Cook
Miami Valley field director
614-325-5021 (m)
937-866-1446 (w)
mcook@georgewbush.com
Christina Haddad
Eastern field director
614-519-7076 (m)
chaddad@georgewbush.com
Brent Sanders
Southwest field director
513-381-5454 (sw office)
614-395-2412 (m)
513-621-3453 (f)
bsanders@georgewbush.com
Dan Halm
Cuyahoga County &
Northern Ohio field director
614-309-2043 (m)
614-284-3036 (m2)
dhalm@georgewbush.com
Aaron McLear
Press Secretary
614-325-8276 (m)
614-270-8862 (h)
amclear@georgewbush.com
Bob Paduchik
Campaign Manager
614-203-5324 (m)
614-855-2496 (h)
rpaduchik@georgewbush.com
Darrin Klinger
Executive Director
614-395-1921 (m)
614-946-1830 (m2)
dklinger@georgewbush.com
John Scharer
Director of Events
614-519-1796 (m)
jscharer@georgewbush.com
Mike Hartley
Political Director
614-425-6388 (m)
mhartley@georgewbush.com
J.D. Estes
Director of Coalitions
614-314-9114 (m)
jestes@georgewbush.com
Newswriter: “While I agree that there are extreme elements on both sides of any issue — including a presidential campaign — I must disagree that progressives are “just as bad.” ”
Sure, the bullet holes riddling Republican headquarters across the country are not quite as bad as Republicans who actually want to enforce voting laws? We can’t have that; that would be intimidating. Having someone watch you making sure that you didn’t vote 4 or five times must be really scary.
Boy all this and just about voting!!!. Well, I hope each and everyone of you is motivated to vote no matter who you choose. (just for the record I voted to fire Bush)
I don’t think the military is truly disenfranchised I think that we have not paid enough attention to them. Both Parties. Everyone assumes they will vote Republican because Republicans are supposedly very Pro-military. That’s not a true assessment.
Just like everyone assumes Blacks are Democrats and I’ve known too many Black Republicans to believe that.
Voter intimidation is targeted at those groups people think are easily swayed. Blacks, Hispanics, Poor, Military. Why folks think that these groups are easily swayed I have no idea, but it’s a belief.
All this talk about politicos claim that Blacks are not intellegent enough to use electronic voting. I want to know where they are because someone needs to investigate that group of people and make sure they aren’t some white supremists terror group posing a legitimate members of political parties. There’s been some of that going on.
Just thought I’d drop a note since I dropped one yesterday
Spot: No, however disenchanted I am with the process I still voted my conscious.
Being in the military and a resident of Dallas, TX, I voted absentee. Of course Texas was quick to get my ballot to me because I am in the military and they believe I will vote straight republican.
I actually voted for Badnarik. No government intrusion and personal responsibility for your actions. I think Badnarik’s remarks in the Houston Chronicle sum it up best: “[I] . . . can’t vote for President Bush or Democratic candidate John Kerry and respect [myself] in the morning.”
I also think that he will have a huge impact on a defeat of President Bush for the reason cited by Badnarik’s campaign manager, Barbara Goushaw:
“Millions of fiscal conservatives have been left politically homeless by the GOP. . . If George Bush thinks these people have no place to go, he’s in for a big surprise.”
Sorry, the behavior on boht sides isn’t equal. That’s all there is to it. Where on the Left is the equivalent to this:
“Feminism encourages women to leave their husbands, kill their children, practice witchcraft, destroy capitalism, and become lesbians.”
This American Life did a report this weekend about voter fraud on both sides. They asked the campaigns to come up with the worst the other side had done.
The GOP gave a list of various fraudulent-registration schemes, only two of which checked out: a temp who was hired to register voters and paid in crack (and who submitted fake registrations with names like Mary Poppins), and a guy from Denver who bragged that he’d registered 35 times. That’s it. That was the best they had. And I doubt Mary Poppins showed up at the polls.
On the other side, massive documented voter suppression efforts engineered at a high level in the GOP. GOP campaign directors from South Dakota who are under investigation for their roles in voter suppression on Indian reservations being transferred to Ohio to do the same. The Florida felon list, which had thousands and thousands of names of black people, some of whom were either not felons or who now were eligible to vote, but virtually no names of Hispanic felons. Hispanics skew Republican in Florida. Indictments of high-level GOP figures in a phone-jamming voter suppression effort in New Hampshire traced to GOP-hired call centers. Posters giving out misinformation about polling places and dates and open hours. Systematic shredding of Democratic voter registrations. Attempts to move polling locations in poor black neighborhoods in Philadelphia. The list goes on.
I was in New Hampshire this past week working for the Kerry campaign, and there was a lot of crap going on there as well. Flyers in student areas warning students falsely that they could lose their scholarships and other consequences if they voted in New Hampshire rather than where their parents live. Phone calls telling people that Kerry was ahead, so don’t bother voting. Flyers in Latino areas falsely stating that if you voted in the past year, you can’t vote again. Election workers refusing to accept US passports as evidence of citizenship. Republican election officials trying to extend the hours of the polls in their Republican districts to increase the turnout for their candidates. There’s no equivalence whatsoever.
jstevenson, they were left homeless last election, too. Why didn’t they revolt this time?
Did anyone notice a atmosphere of fear that was pervasive in this campaign by the GOP?
I mean I’ve talked to a number of people who voted for Bush instead of Kerry and they said they were afraid of what would happen with the war on Terror of Kerry won.
I informed them that if they think the war on Terror will be won by Bush they are sadly mistaken. The Israelis can attest to that. The war on Terrorism will last well beyond our lifetimes because the hate will last that long.
I noticed plenty of fear being hurled from the liberal-Left toward the recalcitrant stragglers on the far Left, as well. And since it was somehow Kerry –whom I never once mistook for a good man– who was supposed to protect us all from a system that he has eagerly conspired to uphold and perpetuate, I felt much the same unreality about the whole thing as you’re now feeling about Bush voters who sincerely believe in Bush’s goodness now. They ignored obvious evidence to the contrary, but so did you when your own front-runner’s record was right there in front of you for the viewing. The one advantage I have today over all the Kerry voters who feel alienated and disconnected from the country at large is that I’ve felt that way now for at least a year. You’ll get used to it, Folks. If you want to continue in this life, you won’t have any choice but to get used to it. :(
Mythago: “jstevenson, they were left homeless last election, too. Why didn’t they revolt this time?”
It is a sad day. I think the problem everyone faced this election was put well by my wife (we are both Marines BTW). She stated once — ABB. While she was in the Persian Gulf she found out that Senator Kerry was nominated — there was a collective “OMG it’s Armaggedon!” I think fiscal conservatives felt the same way. Moderate Republicans (social liberals with fiscal conservativism) and moderate Democrats were hoping and praying for a viable candiate against GW. Unfortunately it did not happen. If the Kerry supporters really looked deep down inside themselves they would see that they did not like Kerry, it was just vitriol against GW. Fiscal conservatives wanted someone who would say something, stand for something, anything. I figured it was just too early in the campaign and Kerry would stand for something at some point in time, but in the end, he was a Senator and not a President.
So until third party candidates get media attention or the Democratic party realizes that they cannot please everyone, then we will continue to have a one party system.
I can say that I was only a Kerry Supporter because he was the choice of the DNC, but he was not my first choice and I was disappointed when he was chosen.
However, I knew I could never support Bush and that has as much to do with him as it does with the republican party as a whole and Nader wasn’t offering me anything either.
So there you have it. It was like 2000. I wouldn’t have went with Gore if there had been someone else, but that’s not where the Party went.