A new group of activists have joined the fray of fighting for women’s rights; their goal to nurse without shame or scorn where and when they choose or need. Cleverly touting themselves as ‘lactivists’, they’ve put Barbara Walters under fire due to some insensitively ignorant comments made by the long-time reporter and current co-host of ‘The View’. On the May 17th show new mother and co-host Elisabeth Hasselbeck returned to the show and the discussion turned to her discomfort at nursing her daughter Grace. When the topic of breastfeeding was brought up, Walters related a story about a recent plane trip she’d taken, where a woman sitting in the next aisle over nursed her child. Walters stated: “It made me very nervous, she didn’t cover the baby with a blanket. It made us uncomfortable.” Further offense was taken at what was perceived to be an almost celebratory or congratulatory response to Hasselbeck’s decision to give her daughter formula.
According to the NYTimes, nearly 200 protesting mothers showed up quickly afterwards, babies and boobies ready to fire back at Walters insensitive comments with what is referred to as a ‘nurse-in.’
They stood nursing their babies in the unmistakably public venue of Columbus Avenue and West 67th Street. They held signs reading, “Shame on View,” and “Babies are born to be breastfed.” […]
But the rally at ABC is only the most visible example of a recent wave of “lactivism.” Prodded by mothers who say they are tired of being asked to adjourn to the bathroom while nursing in a public space, six states have recently passed laws giving a woman the right to breast-feed wherever she “is otherwise authorized to be.”
Adding further insult onto injury, Walter’s spokesman related bemusement at the protests, attempting to dismiss the commentary as singular and not reflective of Walter’s overall view on nursing. Interesting that this isn’t her ‘view,’ when she as a co-host spewed it out for public consumption on the national show, ‘The View.’
Despite the attempt at back-peddling that is going on with ‘The View’ folks, the controversy has had the benefit of generating attention on prejudice and reprehensible behavior towards nursing mothers. These situations getting more discussion time will hopefully lead to greater acceptance and understanding.
In interviews and Internet discussions, hundreds of women recount being asked to stop nursing in public spots, including the Children’s Museum in Huntsville, Ala.; a knitting store in the East Village; a Radisson Hotel lobby in Virginia; a public bus in Los Angeles; and a city commission meeting in Miami Beach.
As a nursing mother, my take on the situation is fairly personal ““ I’m offended at the unaccountable offense. When I nurse my child, I do so for her. Her comfort and hunger are the first priority. The next priority is my comfort while carrying out the task. The last thing I worry about, or should worry about is someone attempting to sexualize (which is where the squeamishness comes from) the tool I use to feed my child.
Additionally, the ignorance about how important nursing on airplanes is for the child is unexpected from a woman reportedly as intelligent as Walters. When it comes to protecting my child’s ear drums from rupturing, or even discomfort, my child is always going to come first. (When she wouldn’t nurse on the plane when we visited my folks at Christmas, the result was a 102.5 temperature and a trip to the emergency room).
So I’ll answer Ms. Walters ‘view’ with a quote from another celebrity that celebrated infants and children with more aplomb and grace:
“I will do it on a plane; I will do it in the rain. I will do it here or there, I will do it anywhere.” ““ Dr. Suess
(Related links: Feministe, Ms. Musings and The Freewheelin’ Kim-Loi Mergenthaler.)
I breastfed both of mine, and my sisters and sisters-in-law have all breastfed theirs. I have never had anyone say anything to me while I was nursing. The only times I excused myself to move to another room were at work, when I went to the room the company provided for mothers to nurse or use their pumps. (My cubicle didn’t have an electrical outlet with the right voltage for my pump.) So I guess I’ve been aware that some women have had problems, but I didn’t realize it was this much of one.
Sex writer Susie Bright blogs about this as well. She got used as an example of a ‘horrible no good breast feeding in public mother’ by that #&!@ Margie Egan.
Susie rocks my world. I’ve always had sort of a star-struck crush on her.
While I think that it is important that women have the legal right to nurse anywhere they would like and while I personally agree that breast feeding is a great thing, isnt Walters entitled to voice her own discomfort about such things. It isnt like I was always comfortable with seeing women breast feed in public. I only got over my discomfort by talking about it with some very understanding friends who were breastfeeding at the time.
This seems like a harsh reaction to someone expressing personal discomfort.
It does seem a little harsh, and I have to say I also breast fed both my kids for 10 months apiece. I think her “discomfort” (as with most people like her) is the discomfort of imagining herself breastfeeding in public. I couldn’t do it, and it wasn’t because I wasn’t motivated (I would have nursed on a plane, and I think I actually did at least once.)
But the reality is that a lot of women are impeded actually and implicitly from breast feeding in places where there really ought not to be any issue about it. In my view, any place where eating is customary and allowed should extend to the newborn infants of nursing women. So that definitely includes planes, but it probably excludes formal concerts and plays, bathrooms, and public swimming pools (I mean in the pool, not beside it).
I’ve seen women expose more of their breasts on a beach and in church than a lactating woman typically does, and it annoys me that people think they have the right to go after mothers for doing what nature intended. “It’s okay to expose most of your breasts all the time for the pleasure of men but briefly exposing your breast to feed your kid is an abomination.”
I saw a clip of Walters that sparked the protests. No, I’m no fan of “The Yentas”, but all Walters said is that she (and her companions) were unconfortable at the display (most women who nurse in public do attempt some form of coverage) as they felt as though they were intruding on a private moment. I also saw one of the lactivists on Olbermann (I think) and she basically said, that nursing is a private moment and others are intruding on that moment only if the mother feels it was an intrustion. That’s total bullshit if ever I heard it. Yes nursing is natural, so is taking a leak or dropping a load but I sure as shit don’t want to watch someone doing it – natural or not. This is not about sexual objectification of a woman’s breasts (I’m a big fat 0 on the Kinsey score, so boobage doesn’t do it for me), it’s about common courtesy and decorum. I don’t know too many women who would be comfortable if someone just watched them nurse and am willing to bet the lactivists would flip their lids if a complete stranger just watched them for a period of time while the nursed, but if you’re going to nurse in public – understand you are in public and engaging in what most people consider private mommy-baby time. To make a big stink because someone expressed their personal discomfort when they felt they were intruding under the circumstances is selfish and arrogant.
Pooping and feeding your child are not the same. Don’t compare my milk to your poop.
As for discomfort, as a woman who did nurse, most of my discomfort for breastfeeding in public came from the men in my life who were uncomfortable with it. I was worried about making them uneasy. Thankfully I got over that dumb idea and realized that Ella came first.
I second the fact that babies need to nurse while a plane in taking off or landing. They can’t pop their own ears like we can when we swallow or chew gum. Perhaps if more moms nursed their kids on the plane, we’d have less crying babies. Ella always feel right to sleep after a nice snack and the whole plane was better for it.
The fact is that our society doesn’t want to think of breasts as anything but sexual. Hell, everytime a celebrity gets pregnant the comments always go right to her boobs – “Looks like someone is breastfeeding!”
Well, I knew it wouldn’t be long before someone popped up and equated nursing with taking a shit or urinating. WTF!!! Ol Cranky, are you just as disgusted when you see someone drinking water, or eating a sandwich? Do you think restaurants are disgusting? Mesca! I just can’t wrap my head around the idea that breastmilk is equivalent to shit or urine.
I breastfed my daughter for almost two years, and while I’ve gotten the evil eye, I’ve never been confronted (I attribute that to the malocchio I learned from my mother—the one that says, “yeah, c’mon, fuck with me….” ;-). Good Lord. What is wrong with people in the United States? I’ve never heard of this being an issue anywhere but the U.S. Is it the Puritan heritage? What? I have yet to see a breastfeeding mom gleefully flopping her engorged breasts around for all to see. Generally, if they’re not wearing a breastfeeding shirt with flaps or slits for easy access, they just lift up their shirt and pop the baby under. You can’t see a damn thing except an infant’s head.
“But they should use a blanket!!” Hah. Those blankets fall by the wayside as soon as the kid gets big enough to squirm or yank it off. Babies don’t want the extra heat of that blanket if it’s not cold outside, and take matters into their own little hands. Besides, it’s one more damn thing to carry. Sheesh. Frankly, I expect grownups to be, well, grown up about breastfeeding.
Feeding your child is private mommy and baby time? Why it breast feeding considered that while bottle feeding isn’t?
I breastfed too. A decade ago I like how one of my friends (also a breast feeding mommy) put the idea of breastfeeding in a bathroom:
“Do you eat your meals in a restroom? Especially a public restroom? Have you ever looked at how dirty they are? When you take your restaurant or fast food meals into a public restroom, sit on the floor and eat it there, then I will consider breastfeeding my child there.”
But yes why is it more acceptable to bare most of your breast in public if your wearing a swim suit, dress, even business suit, etc. than it is to expose a tiny bit, if any when you are breast feeding.
Cover? Like La Lubu said, that doesn’t stay on very long and can be very hot. (nothing like seeing your baby covered in sweat, hair plastered to it’s head all because it was hungry and needed to eat)
The argument of someone’s “discomfort” and “common courtesy and decorum” falls into the hypocrisy category when more of a woman’s breast is on display at the beach, in the office, in the park or for a night out on the town.
If it bothers you, don’t look! If you want to stare go ahead – I guess you stare at women’s breasts at the beach too.
You know in many places we consider “backward” where women cover themselves, the act of breastfeeding is not hidden. It is probably the only time when exposure of a part of the breast is okay in those societies.
In other places where the breast is fully exposed, the function of the breast is not for male pleasure but for it’s intended purpose as a MAMMORY GLAND.
But we are so civilized and cultivated here we would rather see most of the breast for the visual pleasure of men, then a very small part, if any at all for the care and nourishment of the newest members of our species.
Or is that it, it reminds you that we are animal after all?
You know, looking away is often considered to be the polite reaction to the semi-private behavior of others that one doesn’t quite subscribe to, for whatever reason, and that includes eating. I was taught that it’s impolite to look too closely at anyone when they are eating. Some people have way bad manners, chew with their mouth open, etc., and somehow society goes on by giving people a zone of privacy in these matters even when individual members form definite opinions. It’s “noticing” that is considered to be the greater evil. So if breastfeeding bothers you, do yourself, the mother and the baby a big favor and do the polite thing of simply pretending not to notice, at least in those places where eating is accepted.
Lynne:
Is she entitled to express her discomfort? Sure. Everyone is entitled to be a jerk in public. What she’s not entitled to do is go without getting called on her bullshit, which was the expectation that her discomfort should somehow set the standard for decent behavior.
That’s what the anti-breastfeeding-in-public crowd is trying to do. They’re trying to get epople to view it as they do, as something *dirty* or *obscene*. Something that should be covered up
Ol Cranky: If you don’t like watching women breast feed, turn your head, and keep your mouth shut.
Walters wasn’t just ‘expressing discomfort’, she was making a public statement on national TV. That has repercussions. If Walters can’t deal with that, she should retire.
For those of y’all in Portland, you should know that Nordstroms downtown has a ‘ladies lounge’ (the anteroom to the women’s bathroom) that is Nursing Central for downtown PDX. They don’t care if you’re a customer, either.
Why it breast feeding considered that while bottle feeding isn’t?
Somebody smarter than me once pointed out that if it’s not OK to nurse in public because a breast is sexual, then bottle-feeding your kid is the equivalent of whipping out a dildo.
I used to think the criticisms of it had some general validity, but since it’s only a matter of time in these discussions that someone starts talking about how breasts are sexual objects *for* men, I’m beginning to realize this might be an issue of men being unhappy about not being the #1 beneficiaries of boobies.
Nordstroms is the best, it has the same facility in Northern Virginia (and probably everywhere else) and I shopped at Nordstroms more than once because I was able to BF in peace there.
There is a great book about historical and cultural attitudes toward breasts called ‘A History of the Breast’ by Marilyn Yalom.
What is interesting is this attitude of breastfeeding in public being wrong is only a “recent” innovation in the US. Before there were bottles, women breastfeeding in public WAS acceptable.
Even for the puritans, before there were bottles, there was the need for children to survive.
So this may have more to do with the recent acculturation of the breast as only a sex object. Indeed, in the 50’s doctors (ob-gyn) even posited this idea, discouraging women from breastfeeding, saying that formula was better and the only thing the female breast was good for now was a male play thing. (a doctor said this to my mother, bet you can guess I was bottle fed)
No wonder women only view themselves as worthy if they can only sexualize their attributes more, and more, and m@@re.
mythago and Amanda LOL … I’m going to use those in my arguments.
Edit (blargh!):
I didn’t realise I had cut out a snippet that explained that Walters comments were not directed at Hasselbeck, but instead a woman that nursed on a plane in a seat in the aisle next to her. It should read:
When the topic of breastfeeding was brought up, Walters related a story about a recent plane trip she’d taken, where a woman sitting in the next aisle over nursed her child. Walters stated: “It made me very nervous, she didn’t cover the baby with a blanket. It made us uncomfortable.”?
Amp; Could you fix this for me?
[Fixed! –Amp.]
My mother-in-law had her first baby in 1946 and her last (#6) in 1960. She told me that in 1946 everyone assumed that you would breastfeed, that by the mid-50s it was presented as an inferior choice, and by 1960 the nursing staff were so horrified that she was breastfeeding that they tried to bind her breasts without her permission to dry up her milk. But since she had already had five children she wasn’t afraid to stand up to them. In 1959 my mother tried to breastfeed and she wasn’t told no, but the staff ignored her and insisted on feeding my sister by bottle for the duration of her hospital stay, and gave no support to her efforts, which were destined to be unsuccessful (a good thing for me or else I probably wouldn’t be here).
It’s true that women breastfed “in public” but it also bears remembering that in general, women were not out and about in public nearly as often as they are now. Certainly, women with infants were unlikely to travel on planes. They also didn’t wear bikinis either. So lots of things have changed, and what we tolerate and don’t tolerate just speaks volumes about our values and prejudices.
Barbara I think that depends on where you lived. On the farm in the midwest, when going to church every Sunday and to town once a week was a whole family enitre day event (they’d pack up the Model A and leave just after milking the cows and get back for the end of the day milking) my grandmother was out and about every weekend.
I think the preception that women were not out and about had to do with social class. In the slums of NYC women worked, on the farm, women worked, amoung the working poor women always worked. Staying in was a luxury for upper class women.
Breast feeding is perfectly natural. It is good for the child, it is good for the mother. There is nothing sexual about breast feeding.
But I do not think it is something that should be done in public. It ranks in there with all those little things we were taught as children not to do in public because it is impolite: picking your nose, scratching your crotch or butt, digging the wax out of your ears, excessive PDAs, etc… There is nothing inherently wrong with doing any of those things, but out of respect for others the average person tries not to do them in public.
I agree with Miss Manners on this one:”In America, breast feeding is done only among intimates”. Or at least, it should be.
So you’re comparing feeding your child with picking your butt?
Since when is picking ones butt associated with the survival of another being?
So what should a mother do? Should women who breast feed never go to the store, buy clothes, attend exhibitions, travel, the sports events of their older children, etc. etc. etc.?
While I agree with Miss Manners on many things, she’s off base here. Good night! How many churches and museums have Madonna paintings of Mary nursing Jesus, or with a bare or breast? Hypocrites.
Venerate motherhood on one hand, demonize it or hide it on the other hand.
If you want nursing mothers to go into hiding that you’d better create and legislate designated “Nursing Areas,” because I don’t see the Nordstrom example as spreading …. but what a wonderful idea, automatic first class seating in a designated nursing area of an airplane.
Barbara, I also forgot to add that during WWII when women went to work for the war effort women were really out and about and nursing in public was a necessity.
So what you’re saying is ‘Breastfeeding is gross!’. Hmmm.
Ergh, hit enter too soon. Queen of the typo this week.
Anyways;
You’re implying that a woman should feel the same embarassment and feel shame for nurturing her child in public.
I can’t honestly believe you just compared picking your ass to nursing your child.
“Or is that it, it [nursing] reminds you that we are animal after all? ”
There’s a post up at Pandagon about some fellow who (arguing about secularism vs. religiousity) starts going on about how animals eat all disgusting-like, and we have *manners* to show that we *aren’t* animals, who however friendly, are “not holy” (yes, direct quote), and that we’re supposed to elevate our behavior above that of animals, and that people walking around naked are “acting like animals” . . .
Wonder what he thinks of breastfeeding?
I think this is a very, very important concept – this excessive fear of animality, the obsessive horror at the thought that maybe we are after all just animals. It certainly drives a lot of anti-evolution sentiment. Take Utah, where state senator Chris Buttars is pushing the teaching of “divine design” (sound familiar?)
I think these guys are pretty . . . special . . . themselves.
Cue scratchy Kreationist Kwotes LP: . . [crackle] . . . “When we tell children they’re descended from monkeys, why are we suprised when they act like animals [scratch] . . like animals . . .like animals . . like animals . . . .”
What a beautiful salamander you’ve designed! Simply divine!
(sorry, just popped out of my head. It’s hot.)
And one more time, folks, if watching a woman breastfeeding her baby makes you uncomfortable . . . . don’t look! Why are you ogling the poor woman just trying to feed her kid?
sorry about the bad HTML . . . it really *is* hot . . .
[No prob, I’ve fixed it. –Amp]
Kim — I claim that my typos are the sign of a superior mind hard at work, my fingers just can’t keep up ;-)
Anyway I left my desk for lunch and a thought just hit me . . .
“I agree with Miss Manners on this one:”?In America, breast feeding is done only among intimates”?. Or at least, it should be. ”
It used to be in America that exposing the female breast was only done among intimates. So by that measure it would seem that on’es sexual partner is no longer considered an intimate, or one that counts.
Anyway, designers, pop stars. Madison Ave. Victoria Secret, etc. sort of changed that definition of what is done/revealed only in the presence of intimates.
So it seems the idea of what is done between intimates CAN change in society, and that change comes from exposure. So all hail the “Nurse In” !! :-)
>>But I do not think it is something that should be done in public. It ranks in there with all those little things we were taught as children not to do in public because it is impolite: picking your nose, scratching your crotch or butt, digging the wax out of your ears, excessive PDAs, etc… There is nothing inherently wrong with doing any of those things, but out of respect for others the average person tries not to do them in public.>>
There’s nothing unduly burdensome about asking that people refrain from doing any of these things in public; it doesn’t inconvenience me to restrict my Q-tip regimen to my bathroom. Nursing children, on the other hand, need to be fed all the time. They have individual, occasionally unpredictable, nursing needs. Forcing breastfeeding moms to feed in private means that many of them will be mewed up at home or restricted to a very narrow orbit for as long as they want to nurse. Not only is that bad for the mother and the child, it means that more mothers will stop nursing sooner or decide not to nurse at all.
piny-
All today I have been getting a mental image of the “American Nursing Burka” something like the Taliban made women wear but only for nursing mothers so that they, their breast and their babies would be covered as to not. :-) LOL (in my head it’s a funny picture)
It would make a good political cartoon that might bring the absurdity of the anti-public nursing debate to a new understanding of what these folks are truly saying.
ggrrr …
“All today I have been getting a mental image of the “American Nursing Burka”? something like the Taliban made women wear but only for nursing mothers so that they, their breast and their babies would be covered as to not . . .
(here’s the part I left out)
as to not OFFEND American “sensibilities”
“:”?In America, breast feeding is done only among intimates”?. Or at least, it should be. ”
And exactly WHY, pray tell, should nursing be seen as any different to the ingesting of any other food or liquid by any individual in society? Unless you are buying into the “oh my GAWWWWD, a BOOBIE!!” mentality, there is none. Do you feel the need to hide yourself away from all but your “intimates” every time you take a swig of water or a bite of food?
Damn….please ignore my lack of agreement between the first 2 sentences above……………..I really, really wish we could edit here………..damn…..
This seems like an issue where individual people should be able to make reasonable accommodations to one another’s preferences. If you’re breastfeeding and you have the ability to go somewhere clean and private, then do that so as to avoid giving offense unnecessarily. If you’re offended by breastfeeding and you have the ability to go somewhere else when someone begins to do it, then do that so as to avoid causing unnecessary inconvenience.
If you’re in a position where neither of these options is available, like a plane or somesuch, then the biological need of the child for food outweighs the social need of other people for comfort.
When my sister was about to breastfeed her children when I was around, she’d make elaborate apologies before retreating to the bathroom to do it. I think I should have done a better job of pointing out that she didn’t need to do that.
That is, I do feel a little uncomfortable when I see someone breastfeeding — but that’s my problem, not hers.
Jeez Robert, have you forgotten your role here? You are NOT supposed to be making completely agreeable statements with which no one can argue!
Umm, AndiF, I’m arguing with the whole idea that breastfeeding should or even could be seen as an act that is either offensive or gross. Really—I can’t understand how anyone could take either position. Comparing urine and breastmilk…geez…that’s like comparing urine with water (yuck! How can you drink that! Water!! So gross! Drink Pepsi instead!!). I especially find it bizarre when women hold the opinion that breastfeeding is either gross or offensive. Breastfeeding and digging in your butt?! Please!
Robert: post :32:
And Robert is the voice of reason. I agree with everything he said.
I wonder if Babwa Wawa put a blanket over her head when they brought the peanuts around. After all, it’s impolite not to hide such an intimate private moment with one’s honey roasted bounty. Just thinking about her sucking on nuts makes me uncomfortable.
I disagree with Robert, and agree with La Lubu. We need to get over the attitude that the body is evil.
Jeez Robert, have you forgotten your role here? You are NOT supposed to be making completely agreeable statements with which no one can argue!
Sorry, my bad. Breastfeeding is EVIL because it shows the BREAST and everyone who does it will go to HELL, as will the people who SEE the evil BREAST in question.
Or, if you prefer, breastfeeding is natural and pure and should be done everywhere and it will be a great day when the president of the united states is a nursing mother and she whips that tit out right there at the podium and gives suck to the First Infant, and anyone who doesn’t see it my way is a repressed bigoted intolerant fanatic who should DIE just DIE DIE DIE.
Better?
gibbie, the point is a tangential one, no doubt, but all I meant to say was that there have been so many changes in demographic patterns over the last 50-60 years that it’s hard to imagine what it was like for most women before 1950. I wouldn’t veiw going to church, for instance, as going out in public, considering that most churches were pretty small and were composed of your neighbors and relatives who knew you. Most people didn’t drive much and social interactions were limited to walking distance. No doubt there were urban and rural differences, but more people (many more) lived in rural, agricultural settings where they came into contact with many fewer people, and they knew most of them. WWII was a turning point, but it was also accompanied by a very low birth rate, for fairly obvious reasons. It’s not clear that nursing women were readily accepted into the workforce (which is to say, I really don’t know).
The ready acceptance of formula was itself a way to overcome the confinement of maternal domesticity. It’s just easier when you can have others (dad, grandma, etc.) contribute time and effort to feeding baby. It wasn’t a good thing, as it turned out, or at least it wasn’t optimal, and as I said above, I find it annoying and hypocritical that acceptance of exposed breasts seems to be limited to that which is perceived to be overtly provocative to male attention and pleasure. Miss Manners approves of plunging necklines for evening wear, I’ve read her, and her views on nursing in public are a simple reflection of the hidebound prejudices of her and Ms. Walter’s childrearing days (roughly, the mid-60s). No one should listen to either of them on the subject.
Umm, AndiF, I’m arguing with the whole idea that breastfeeding should or even could be seen as an act that is either offensive or gross. Really…I can’t understand how anyone could take either position.
But Robert was not arguing for that. He was arguing for reasonable accommodation and consideration from both sides, with the baby’s needs as the final arbiter.
And Robert, yes, thank you. The severe wobble in the planet’s orbit is now straightened out.
Speaking of breastfeeding and bathrooms, check out this week’s Commentoon.
Barbara said: “The ready acceptance of formula was itself a way to overcome the confinement of maternal domesticity.”
I think the acceptance of formula was also linked to the whole “making life better with science” mindset that disparaged our animal nature. Remember the scene in “Lady and the Tramp” where the sterilized implements for bottle-feeding sparkle in the sun?
Here’s a scenario where I got “the glare” from a pair of prudes (both women): I was at the local Barnes and Noble, and had just bought a bag full of books. I wanted simply to have a cappucino, read a magazine, and rest a bit before going home. I had with me (1.) the bag of books, (2.) my purse, (3.) a large bag with baby supplies, (4.) a baby sling, and (5.) a boppy pillow, as well as my infant. Of course, I hadn’t cracked the magazine open past the first few pages before my daughter wanted to nurse. No biggie. I was wearing a flannel shirt designed for nursing, with slits in the side. I unhitched the flap on my nursing bra, put my daughter up there, and she busied herself nursing. No fuss, no bother. No visuals, either—although folks can generally figure out that if a baby’s head is tucked inside a mother’s shirt, there’s probably some nursing going on!
Was I waving my boobs around? Asking other people at the cafe if they wanted some extra milk in their coffee? Seeing how far I could squirt milk (“betcha I can hit the cash register from here, nyuk nyuk nyuk!”)? Nope. Just quietly, unobtrusively nursed my daughter. And I still got “the glare”.
Are you seriously suggesting that I should have had to pick up all that crap, aimlessly walk around looking for someplace other than a bathroom (do you eat where you—and other people—shit?!), on the slight chance that I might offend some prude by nursing? Because you know what? It’s not just the baby that deserves a little consideration here—the mother does, too.
From your description, it doesn’t sound like you had much of a choice of locale, since no clean and private space was available. The people who were offended, accordingly, should have been the ones to leave.
It’s amazing to me that anyone at all would even have to think about this no-brainer. An adult being squeamish is never going to trump a child’s needs. It isn’t a matter of breastfeeding mothers attempting to make people uncomfortable – they simply just aren’t concerned with playing mommy to the adults around them that are taking an offensive posture with regards to the care of a child.
These adults would have a point if we were talking about diaper changing, but we’re not. These adults would have a point if we were talking about lactating mothers releasing a breast and squirting those in her direct vicinity with milk, but we’re not. What we’re talking about is feeding and comforting a child, and being expected at the same time to accomodate adults that have zero case. To pretend that an archaic social taboo, built around the notion of sexism is something that nursing mothers need to accomodate if they can, is tantamount to asking me to wear a skirt for the sake of propriety to function a, or function b.
We all know the benefits of breastfeeding, and we all know that breastfeeding is well, what the word says ‘feeding’. So what is the benefit of pampering or coddling outdated taboo’s that could potentially cause enough discomfort to a woman that she’d give up on breastfeeding?
“…To pretend that an archaic social taboo, built around the notion of sexism is something that nursing mothers need to accomodate if they can, is tantamount to asking me to wear a skirt for the sake of propriety to function a, or function b…”
For the record, I do sometimes feel a bit uncomfortable seeing women breastfeed on the bus, in the park, etc. Big deal. That’s my own problem, and it does spring from a rather archaic and silly taboo. Besides, it’s not like the woman is demanding that I hold her kid while she’s feeding him/her or whatever. I’ll just look away or open a magazine. What in blazes is the big deal ?
As for flying, I’d find it a lot more aggravating to have a baby screaming next to me on a six-hour flight than I’d find the prospect of a mother nursing her kid next to me on that same flight. Yeesh.
Ahh, but see Robert, to those women, that didn’t matter. Any act of nursing is considered offensive to some people. I truly do not go around spoiling for a fight all the time. If I had entered the place, and saw a sign that said “For your nursing convenience, cozy rocking chairs are located on the south side”, I would have made a beeline for the south side and parked myself in one of them. Such was not the case. And it is inconvenient to have to pick up and move all and sundry that parents of infants tend to carry if not necessary.
The “hairy eyeball” pair did not give the “look” to the man a couple of seats over, who was having a nice, productive honk into his handkerchief. I can’t help but think this attitude has something to do with negative feelings toward women and our bodies.
The only time I ever got “the glare” was when I whipped out my insulated snack bag, pulled out a baggie of cold breast milk, and dunked it in my cup of hot water to warm it up a bit before I stirred it into my son’s cereal. I’m still not sure why that woman was upset.
She probably thought you were giving your son formula.
Maybe, except I was using a Bailey’s bag with bright purple and yellow alternating stripes as ounce markers. Who knows?
Barbara –
I think in some ways the small church can be more stultifying and enforcers of taboos. Because of the nature of small towns you are more likely not to rock the boat and to succumb to the peer pressure of following the crowd and not being different.
Bottle feeding was not to and did not release women from domesticity. It was, as stated, “better living through science.” As proof, the ideal home in the 1950s and 60’s was still the stay at home mom. Middle to upper class urban and suburban men were still fanatical about their wives not working. Also while grandma could assist in feedings, Dad’s during that time did not. Raising children was still women’s work and even with the bottle, Dad’s did not get up in the middle of the night.
Oh, one other thing to mention, that has only been touched upon in this conversation.
People assume that a breastfed infant is on the same 3 -4 hour feeding schedule that a bottle fed infant is. This is a false assumption.
Breastmilk breaks down easier in a human baby’s belly as the proteins are formulated for human needs (for example cow’s milk forms a hard curd in a human baby’s belly that is hard to digest). That ease of digestion makes a breastfed baby hungry more often.
A baby hungry more often means nursing/feeding must be done more often.
Once we (my husband, older children, baby and I) were at a traveling Smithsonian exhibition. While exciting, this exhibition took quite a while to get through and my baby became hungry. Because I wanted to get away from the noise and the commotion (hundreds and hundreds of people streaming through the exhibition areas) I ducked into darkened area between the exhibition wall and the walls of the hall itself.
While nursing a police officer came up behind me and demanded to know what I was doing (yes several items on exhibit could be stolen and this officer was making security rounds). I replied that I was nursing my child.
With that he about tripped over himself trying to back up, apologized profusely and let us be.
I’m not sure if he thought he’d be exposed to the sight of a breast in the mouth of a child or he was truly sensitive to our needs and wanted to let us be. (I’d prefer to think he was sensitive)
amp – lol
Well, gibbie, I tried to find any apparent source that discusses the cultural mores associated with the practice of breast feeding circa 1930-1950, but no luck. It’s really hard to put ourselves back in that place and time and I hate to speculate just how “public” breastfeeding really was because I really don’t know. For instance, among Catholics, mothers didn’t go back to church at all until well after a baby was christened, so there wasn’t much nursing in church going on there. A lot of protestant churches have church nurseries where all babies and small children go, indeed, you get dirty looks if you bring your child to the sanctuary, and that’s for noise reasons. Anyway, if I get a chance, I will ask my mother.
No doubt, better living through science played a key role in the acceptance of formula, however, formula is expensive (on the order of $15 or more per week in today’s terms), requires equipment, and so on, so people had to be motivated to adopt it. It appears that the alacrity with which formula caught on related to other matters as well, including the convenience of hospital staff (they STILL want to feed the baby a bottle, it makes their job less stressful). Indeed, as my mother’s experience shows, hospital practices reinforced formula feeding by making it more difficult for mothers to initiate successful breast feeding. But even now, with much more support from doctors and hospitals, most women don’t breast feed or they stop within a very short period of time (less than 2 months). Support at work definitely lags behind, but alot of women don’t like the idea of pumping even when they have the option. I didn’t like it either, but I did it anyway.
“(they STILL want to feed the baby a bottle, it makes their job less stressful). ”
Yeah Barbara that’s something I can’t figure out. How is gettting up in the middle of the night, warming a bottle of formula, checking to see that you haven’t overheated it (if you have you get to do the whole process again) and then going to feed baby LESS stressful than picking up crying child, and putting child on your breast (all ready at the perfect temperature)
Actually I did both. I bottle fed my first two, many reasons like I was the primary bread winner and my x well, wasn’t. He wasn’t lots of things.
I breastfed the second two.
I think one of the problems of pumping it that you don’t get “let down” – or atleast I didn’t. Those natural triggers which help a mother give milk aren’t there, add to that the stress of the enviroment and I can understand why pumping isn’t adopted.
Also formula whether permixed liquid or powdered that you mix yourself, if done by the direction still leaves a baby dehydrated. I didn’t realize that until I breastfed.
The church I was raised in didn’t have a “cry room” (it was built in the late 40’s) and going to the midwestern old churches my cousins belong to, most don’t have a cry room.
My views of prefeeding prior to the widespread use of bottle and formula are based on thngs my mother and grandmother told me. But I will also say that these could all be regional farming community needs.
However given that puritan idea that everyone needed to be in church or arrested — I would guess that plenty of nursing mothers attended church.
I’m willing to bet neither Barbara Walters nor Miss Manners ever breastfed their children. I myself never understood how hard a baby is until I had one. Newborns need to eat constantly. I would have had to excuse myself from places where it wasn’t feasible, and even if it was, I was so harried and tired I didn’t give a frick about decorum. Also, I only had one child to worry about. What if you have to nurse when your 2 year old is running around the playground or library? How can you excuse yourself then? Are you supposed to nurse in the bathroom with a toddler climbing on the toilets? Mothers of babies sometimes feel entitled to alot of leeway, and dammit they are right. You should treat a nursing mother with the same respect you treat your elders. Give her the best seat, fetch her some water and let her do her thing.
Yeah Robert, where do you get off being reasonable and everything ;) …
Funny, I’ve had so many experiences with breast feeding in public…. and I’m a man! My niece breast fed and once we were in a restaurant and the baby was hungry.. a restaurant mind you…. so my niece was very discreet, blanket and everything, and starting feeding her and an older woman came up to our table and started to berate her for being ‘uncouth’ and ‘exhibitionist’. Because my niece is young and a bit shy, she sat there and just kept feeding… I wasn’t so quiet though. My response: “perhaps if you stop eating, she’ll stop feeding her child”. She walked away in a huff.. She had to be _STARING_ to have noticed.
and talking of bathrooms… (i know, thread hijacking, but bathrooms and sexism were brought up), we’ve recently had some experiences which we think were terribly sexist, prudish or maybe just strange cultural hangups. We are two men raising a 3-year-old daughter…who just learned to leave diapers.. we’ve been berated three times now for taking her into the men’s room to use the potty…., one guy following us to the car cursing..(links to a blog entry about it).
If you’re breastfeeding and you have the ability to go somewhere clean and private
Robert, you are such the optimistic dreamer. Next you’ll be wearing Birkenstocks.
It doesn’t make the mother’s life less stressful, it’s just easier for the nursery nurses to have quiet sleeping babies. The same is true for daycare workers. Sometimes you really have to be very directive with them about NOT giving baby a bottle. I know more than one mom who left a center because the daycare workers just wouldn’t cooperate. It’s very stressful to have to console a screaming and hungry baby for an hour until mom is able to come. So yes, barriers are still out there.
re bean’s comment No. 9 – about half the babies being pleased by breastfeeding will eventually become men. :P
re alsis’s comment No. 47 – I just go awwwww, then look at you and you give me the “You’re the one who’s going to take the 3 am phone call saying ‘Dad, I’m in jail.’ 17 years later….” look….
Barbara Walters’ reaction is an anachronism in this day and age, particularly when maternal nutrition usually isn’t an issue. (And personally, I’d rather have a whole store or plane full of nursing mothers than *one* screaming baby….but that’s just me.)
Wow talk about vitriol. I gave examples of acts that are natural (and yes that includes eating and drinking) and I did not say that the woman should not have nursed her child on a plane at all (I’m frankly mortified when parents don’t know how painful ascent and descent – the latter especially – is on a child and aren’t prepared to give it something age appropriate to suck or chew). My point was that, unlike most women, this woman happened not to provide any cover and Babs stated publicly that she felt uncomfortable (if you had seen the footage you would actually see that she was embarassed to admit she felt that way). Walters in no way attacked that woman or breastfeeding (at least not in the segment that aired on Countdown) whereas the lactivist pretty much slammed anyone who would have the audicity for feeling uncomfortable in that situation as not having a right to feel that way. My point was, and is, that most women are conscientious of their surroundings and do seem to have some awareness that when they nurse in public there are other people around and that some of those people may not be particular comfortable for a more overt display during nursing. SInce this group seems to be saying that no-one has the right to be uncomfortable, is it safe to also say that you think it’s also OK for someone to objectify a woman while watching her nurse a child since she feels so free and comfortable to do so very openly in public (i.e., everything in full view)? If not I smell some hypocrisy here.
Chances are, Aaron is right, Walter’s reaction is more one of her generation which did not, in general, nurse. As I’m sure others have, I’ve been told countless times about the special bonding that occurs during nursing (in addition to nutrition) – to many “special” mommy & me bonding is kinda private, so I can understand that if others have gotten that message they feel as though being in a situation (that they can not walk away from) of nursing with full exposure makes them feel like an intruder and therefor uncomfortable.
What Barbara said got me thinking. Maybe the reason for the discomfort with breastfeeding actually has more to do with the idea that breastfeeding is no longer deemed to be “a good thing” by much of society. Despite the best efforts of many in the medical profession, many people seem to view breastfeeding as somehow deviant, as unnatural (which is an interesting Orwellian idea – the basic functioning of the body is deemed “unnatural”). I wonder if what they people like Walters really mean when they say it makes them uncomfortable is that they view it as a wierd and entirely voluntary perversion that people can choose to keep private. The language they use somehow reminds me of the language some conservatives use to talk about gay people, ie why do they have to be so blatant, why can’t they keep their PDAs private, don’t ask don’t tell etc. This idea keeps jumping out at me whenever I hear people talking about breastfeeding, does this make sense to anyone else or am I just being paranoid?
Also, I think that the idea that men “own” breasts is part of it too. There was an article a while back on Salon where they interviewed men whose wives were breastfeeding and several of them expressed the sentiment that they felt that since the birth of the baby they didn’t feel that their wife’s body “belonged” to them any more (I’m not quite sure how the writer restrained herself from pointing out that the wife’s body didn’t “belong” to them before the birth of the baby either!). It was as if they were resentful of the kids for infringing on their property. If men can feel like this when it’s their own kids, it’s not too surprising that they wouldn’t be very comfortable with breastfeeding in general.
I have a friend who was unable to nurse. She spoke often about how people would “express their discomfort” at having to watch her bottle feed her baby. One woman actually accused her of child abuse!
Yes, Walters is a public figure and as such can expect people to react to things she says. But that doesnt mean that people who go to the trouble of loudly protesting such arent just as likely to be seen as overreacting.
It is great that women breastfeed and they should be allowed to do it anytime and any place they would like. But it does make some people uncomfortable. Ditto bottle feeding apparently.
I haven’t nursed a baby in a long time (my babies are grown) but I want to become a lactivist too.
I think the one thing that makes me madder than anything is when ignorant assholes say “Sure it’s NATURAL but so is urinating and copulating and I don’t want to see those in public either.” Blow. a. gasket. at. that. stupidity. Nursing a baby IS NOT PISSING for god’s sake!
I don’t know, Barbara Walters is old enough and intelligent enough not to say something that colossally stupid. I’m not going to cut her a lot of slack on this one.
this woman happened not to provide any cover and Babs stated publicly that she felt uncomfortable
Reminds me of the 60 Minutes segment where Diane Sawyer interviewed a Middle Eastern dignitary, who insisted her hair be covered. He stormed out in a huff when she let her headscarf slip.
SInce this group seems to be saying that no-one has the right to be uncomfortable
You have the right to feel as uncomfortable as you like. What you don’t have the right to do is insist that because of your discomfort, nursing mothers should go feed their babies in a bathroom stall, or otherwise cover up because OMFG BOOBIES!
Lola:
Thank you for a calling me an ignorant asshole . I was providing an example in which people who have had the audacity to express any discomfort with anything “natural” (including but not limited to nursing) are verbally attacked with the “it’s natural, you have no right to feel any discomfort”. I too have seen women so harrangued for bottle feeding when they could not nurse that it induced or exacerbated post-natal depression. I’ve been around when women use a bottle to feed expressed breast milk are also verbally attacked. I also know of cases in which women sostuck in the “must breast feed baby (breastfeed only) mindset that their children have been diagnosed with failure to thrive.
Guess what guys, when you take something such as this and turn it into such a political maelstrom, it becomes something other than trying to feed your child in [what should be] the most natural and healthy manner possible. WHen you overreact and shove words in the mouths of others to claim they said nobody should ever nurse a baby in public or that they must h
(friggen laptop!)
hide in a bathroom stall, you are misrepresenting their statements (and quite possibly their view). Remember, they happened to be in a bit of a captive situation (I’m not sure if they were seated next to the woman) – it wasn’t as easy to just look away.
The point is, the overreaction to the statements is that people come off like screaming harpies (and this has been an overreaction to statement) as it turns the very natural bursing into an overt political statement. Think about, most women who nurse in public do have some degree of coverage (and not the burka – though the image did come to mind as something someone would obnoxiously suggest).
Now if anyone saw the full show, I’d be very curious to know what Meredith Viera’s take was. If I recall correctly, she had some problems in her 60 minutes days related to nursing her daughter.
Oh, and this whole breastfeeding should include modesty notion isn’t harmful? Let me tell you something, Ol Cranky, breastfeeding has a learning curve, and needs as much support and acceptance as possible to keep women doing it. YES, it is the best possible option for child -and- mother. No, women should not be berated for bottle feeding, but what has that got to do with this situation? The one and only focus, especially in the early stages for the mother should be her child, not the grown-ups around her. Having to deal with people making you feel uncomfortable for doing something that may or may not come naturally, and getting over your own body issues is more than enough for women to deal with. At no point should they be subjected to people comparing this gift of nature they are giving their child and themselves to urinating or defacating, and it’s an inappropriate and offensive example to use.
As for Bab’s, she’s a co-host of a women’s show and if she wants women to support her, she needs to be sensitive and EDUCATED on issues surrounding the women she’s ‘speaking’ to. In this case she failed miserably, and women (like myself) who nurse are rightfully offended at being chastised for doing something that is nothing but beneficial for all around, except for the whole non-benefit of women desexualizing their breasts in public at the expense of onlookers that are stuck in the mentality that boobs are ornaments and not tools.
This isssue was also discussed at feministing, where I made the following comment:
My preferred nursing method once my babies got past the earliest months was to have them completely under my shirt. I wore loose shirts that would easily come down over their head and upper body. It was like a little private haven for them. Every baby had different preferences, but both of mine seemed to like that method and there was absolutely no way that any breast was being exposed.
But you know what? People still had a problem with it. When they saw that huge bulge under my shirt that was obviously my baby’s head, they knew that breastfeeding was taking place, and they couldn’t deal with it. People will talk about breast exposure as the issue, but the truth is that it’s the mere idea of a baby sucking a woman’s breast that they don’t want to be confronted with.
Someone suggested once that the proper “covering” a nursing mother should have at the ready is a supply of paper bags so that anyone who is disturbed by the sight of breastfeeding can put one over their own head until the baby has finished eating.
post 65: ” Remember, they happened to be in a bit of a captive situation (I’m not sure if they were seated next to the woman) – it wasn’t as easy to just look away.”
So was the woman trying to nurse her baby on the airplane.
I’m supposed to look away if someone on an airplane, sitting next to me, is reading something I find objectionable, with cover art to match the objectionable material … but I can’t look away when someone is breastfeeding their child?
What? That breastfeeding mother envelopes all sides of the person not wishing to view it? That person can’t bury their eyes in a book or the magazines available in the seat back?
Must they rubberneck just as they do at a car accident? Maybe nursing mothers should carry a recording “Move along, there’s nothing to see here.”
Because what you seem to miss in everything that has been said is that there really is little to nothing to see. You see more exposure of the female breast at the beach than you do when a mother nurses.
The women staging the Nurse In exposed more of themselves than you will generally see.
No I don’t like it when a mother using the bottle gets harangued, she shouldn’t because you don’t know the situation. One of my breastfed children had to go on the bottle for a couple weeks because I had to had emergency surgery.
Fault the society for causing the polemic extremes, starting with the “better living through science” fanatical nurses and doctors that disrupted the natural and best way to feed a baby.
Given the large number of very obnoxious things I have put with from seatmates on airplanes that I suspect are quite typical, nursing mothers seem a quite pleasant alternative. So the next time you’re upset by being seated on a plane next to a nursing mother and I’ve got the loud, smelly drunk, please come and ask me to change seats with you.
Lovely. Screaming harpies. Now, that’s original.
Hey, if asserting my legal rights makes me a screaming harpy, then sign me up for that shit! Seriously! Bodily integrity isn’t just about abortion, y’know.
This isn’t just about people being uncomfortable, or even about being offended. The people who glare or comment on (or to) breastfeeding mothers for the most part do not glare, comment on (or to) males who engage in activity that offends them. This is about sexism. I got the glare for feeding my child, though little or no breast tissue was visible. The guy a couple tables over merrily hocked green loogies into his hankie, with no glares or comments.
Look. Women get all kinds of conflicting messages about our bodies from day number one. This issue is personal to me, and not just because I breastfed my daughter, not just because of the benefits of breastfeeding (which were amplified in my preemie daughter’s case). No, it’s also because breastfeeding was one of the ways that feminists sought to reclaim our bodies. It was another way for us to say, “this is mine. I will decide.” And calls for us to go hide aren’t just about the discomfort level of possibly seeing a little breast tissue, or intruding on a moment. It’s about the discomfort level of seeing a woman who is comfortable with her body.
Excellent post. It is so exciting to see breastfeeding as a feminist issue because to my pleasant surprise while I was training to be a lactation educator, it is a feminist issue within the LLL set, too. For some women, perhaps Barbara Walters included, discomfort with nursing comes from mourning their own lost breastfeeding relationship. It is hard to justify bottle-feeding – breastfeeding has science and evidence 100% on its side as the normal, healthy feeding method – and guilt can make us do and say very harsh things. Bottle-feeding is the cultural norm, the status quo. No bottle feeding mother has ever been told to leave a public place, or arrested, or lost custody of her child. The image of the bottle is happily used in greeting cards, toys, baby items, children’s books, clothes and gift wrap to mean “baby”, that is how ingrained that connotation is. Baby = bottle. Baby dolls all come with bottles. To feed a baby from ones own breasts has practically become a radical act, a refusal to pay for an inferior product that harms babies AND mothers (higher breast cancer and other reproductive cancer rates) and to reclaim women’s bodies as their own, to do with what they want to/need to.
When an anti-feminist, right wing “forum” champions formula as “liberating” to women, you know those lactivists are on to something.
Hey, La Lubu, I’ll tag along on a nurse-in with you any day of the week, even if it’s only to carry your sunshade. 8)
I just wonder if the way to get people to feel more comfortable about breastfeeding is to overreact whenever a public figure mentions publicly that they are uncomfortable with it. Seriously. Reacting in anger just makes people defensive.
I am glad that my breastfeeding friends didnt react like that towards me when I was initially uncomfortable with watching them breastfeed. I am glad that they just explained why it was important for them to do it and I am glad that they still continued to breast feed in front of me even though it made me visably uncomfortable. Because, eventually I got desensitized to it and now it no longer makes me uncomfortable.
Heck, I didnt know about the plane thing until this conversation and trust me, I cant think of anyone who would rather sit next to a screaming infant instead of one being breast fed.
I just wonder if the way to get people to feel more comfortable about breastfeeding is to overreact whenever a public figure mentions publicly that they are uncomfortable with it. Seriously. Reacting in anger just makes people defensive.
Do you think the way to get people comfortable is to meekly and timidly voice the mildest of disagreement, so that nobody can possibly accuse you of “overreacting” and you don’t make anyone defensive, no matter how unreasonable their defensiveness may be? (As you may guess, I think not.)
Remember, they happened to be in a bit of a captive situation
I must have missed that bit in A Clockwork Orange where one of the scenes Alex was forced to watch was a mother nursing her baby.
Hey, if asserting my legal rights makes me a screaming harpy, then sign me up for that shit! Seriously! Bodily integrity isn’t just about abortion, y’know.
well let’s see, I’ve been attacked here for saying that I think women should not be allowed to nurse in public, essentially accused of saying women should not breastfeed and a bunch of other things despite the fact I not only said no such things, I didn’t so much as imply them. So to start screaming that someone has no right to have feelings that you think they shouldn’t be allowed to have let alone mention in public – can be construed of as nothing other than hystrionics (especially when you accuse others who point out a couple of things in the delivery of condemning the act the public figure expressed discomfort with).
I didn’t not see Walters say any of the things I’ve been accused of saying or implying either such as that women should not nurse in public or otherwise (and if she had, I’d expect that someone who saw the full segment would have corrected be me on this by now). One more time, in the clip that I saw, she not only expressed her discomfort in the situation (her feeling that by being in that close proximty on a plane – mythago, you may want to look up information by what is meant by captive situation, but if you cannot feasible get away from a situation – you are a captive audience), she expressed her embarrassment at admitting to it. I also don’t recall myself or Walters saying we’d rather endure a screaming child on a plane or showing any lack of understanding that children (in particular) need to be sucking on something during ascent or descent and yet people took some pretty significant liberties with what actually was said to attack.
Do you think the way to get people comfortable is to meekly and timidly voice the mildest of disagreement, so that nobody can possibly accuse you of “overreacting”? and you don’t make anyone defensive, no matter how unreasonable their defensiveness may be? (As you may guess, I think not.)
ever hear the saying you get more flies with honey than vinegar? Some people may never be comfortable with certain things, fliping out and accusing of making blanket statement that they’ve said something other than what they said to put them on the defensive will not make them less defensive and may actually put a bad taste in the mouths of people who agree with your basic premise, hence making them back away or causing them unnecessary discomfort? How about rational discourse instead of an attack? If you only need a tackhammer to do the job, it’s not wise to just pull out the jackhammer anyway.
Michelle:
As for Walters own lost nursing since she bottle fed her daughter. . .Walters had no choice, her daughter is adopted and she was unable to breastfeed. Just out of curiosity, what anti-feminist forum championed formula over breastfeeding as a better option (when breastfeeding is an option).
And I hate to break it to you, but despite more than adequate lactation coaching some women either cannot nurse; have medical conditions that preclude nursing safely (ie meds they must use or that were used post natally if there were significant complications in the delivery – women who ended up in ICUs); do not produce enough milk on their own so must use supplememental feedings as well; work and express their milk into bottles (or express milk so the father can participate in feeding); etc. When you make blanket statements, you’re making value judgements about anyone who bottle feeds at all (whether that’s the intent or not) without knowing the situation. It turns what we all agree is natural and in the majority of situations what is best (mother’s milk for a child vs formula) into a political statement and a “with us or against us” situation unnecessarily.
I know more than one mom who left a center because the daycare workers just wouldn’t cooperate. It’s very stressful to have to console a screaming and hungry baby for an hour until mom is able to come.
Yeah, it’s really healthy for a kid to starve because mom lives in “strict feeding schedule land.” By the way, I’m that daycare worker, and when one baby screams the whole time, that really takes away from the care of other children. If mom is running late from work once or twice, that’s one thing, but to expect a child to cry for an hour on a regular basis in order to breast feed is ridiculous.
Ol Cranky,
I’m frustrated with your moving from one point to another, as if attempting to make it seem like your concern all along has been mothers who ended up bottlefeeding and are somehow now being victimized by the actions of offended nursing mothers (the subject of this piece).
The case, however, in your earlier statements was about decorum and disgust. You equated nursing to defacating and urinating in public. You used words such as decorum and attempt to put the burden of ‘comfort’ on the nursing mother, as if the problem is hers, and not others who are struggling with antiquated notions.
I can’t help but feel that part of your argument seems to be woman + mother = natural nurturer, hence obligated to be the one doing the ‘understanding’ and ‘accomodating’ in this situation and allow the idea that nursing is an ‘ugly’ but natural thing to be continued.
A bit of a tangent, but none the less topical:
What I can relate about myself is that I was an early developer. I was in a size C bra by 6th grade. My discomfort with how men (younger and older) seemed to be aware of my breasts created HUGE body issues for me. By the time I became an adult, I settled into a size D, and at this point can’t remember a time when I was not aware of people being ‘aware’ of my chest. When I found out I was pregnant, I was not keen on nursing. I knew I had to, but it was with reluctance and prior to starting a slight amount of animosity. Once I began, I realised I wanted to nurse, but I was having a hard time of it. I learned later, after seeing a lactation specialist that most women (especially without having many female relatives that have nursed living with or around to help support and help through the bumpy spots) have problems in the initial phase of breastfeeding. I started setting up little milestones for myself, and found that once I met them, I wanted to continue on. I was supported and treated with nothing but mellow attitudes among my family and friends. I can’t imagine with my body issues if I would have been able to do that if I had to deal with people trying to have me own their issues on top of my own. What a shame that would have been. I’ve often made the comment that once I really learned how to nurse, I suddenly felt as La Luba said that I FINALLY get it, I finally know what these things are on my chest, and the REAL beauty of them. For the first 6 months of her life, my body and boobies alone were able to nurture the most beautiful creature alive (in my eyes, of course, but she’s my baby, what do you expect). For the last 18 months I’ve been able to continue that gift and get her healthily through 2 flu seasons, infinite moments of needing comfort and in general a lesser chance of breast cancer for her and I – I could go on and on. And taking all this into consideration, I’m of no mind to let anyone take that away from us, or me, or to make me feel shame or responsible for the squeamish and unwarranted or sensibilities of others.
So defensive? Yes, I have no patience for giving ‘honey’ to people who are more concerned with whatever their issues are with a suckling child and a mothers breast. During that particular time, I save that ‘honey’ for my baby, whom my focus is completely on. I have a hard time not feeling this is not only an attack on the mother, but also on the child because of the mothers ‘second class citizenship obligations’ – and let me tell you – hell hath NO FURY like a parent and their baby, when seeing to that babies needs is being jeopardized.
I feel the only way to get this dealt with is baptism by fire so to speak. If you want the thread to have a more positive feel, well then, my suggestion is lets start discussing the benefits of breastfeeding, and why supporting women who are doing it is of such absolute importance.
Kim, you and Michelle Malkin are apparently soulmates.
wow, I actually agree with Michelle Malkin on something, a major shudder just went through my body.
on a strange and strangely related note, apparently the Aka pygmies of central Africa are the world’s best fathers. Infants in that society spend 47% of their time with their fathers’ care (sensitive Swedes come in number two at 45%)…
Interesting too, the Aka fathers ‘suckle’ their children. In public. They allow their children to suckle at their nipples to sooth them when the mother is busy or away. God, our American public have problems with MOTHERS suckling their children in public (and seemingly with me taking my daughter to the restroom) can you imagine what problems a poor Aka father would face in this culture?
Amp went to college with her. I think that’s why he tolerates the evil anti-feminists; he wants her to come by ’cause in his heart of hearts he’s hoping to score some of that sweet ultracon love.
(I went to college with her too but I already have some sweet ultracon love.)
Oh my gosh. Tangent hahah. Malkin was an Ob’r? But good for her just the same on her taking a stand on this issue. Not so much seperated at birth, but still sisters in the boobiehood, I suppose.
Trey;
I’ve read your blog and I think that you and your husband do a fantastic job of parenting. People squeaming about children in a way that relates nurturing with sex is such a icky thing to me as a parent, and I know that it’s not limited to issues that women face.
I’ve often heard of people getting squeamish about Dad’s bathing with or showering infants, which to me is just freaking silly. Good parents care for their children’s needs. Others ‘sexualizing’ the needs of children is just – well it’s just plain freaking gross and a nasty reflection on our society as a whole. Why on earth should people expect you to let your three year old go unattended into a restroom without your help – first, she’ll probably need you to help her out, second, she’s freaking three and you’re not going to let her out of your sight. These antiquated notions are means of controlling people and maintaining ‘modesties’ that are not helping our society do anything but fail to progress into a more rational and educated cultural point of view.
So to start screaming that someone has no right to have feelings that you think they shouldn’t be allowed to have let alone mention in public – can be construed of as nothing other than hystrionics
To depict anyone who strongly disagrees with you as “screaming” or a “harpy” and to paint their disagreement as “hystrionics” [sic] can be construed as nothing but using tired, sexist insults rather than actual counterpoints.
ever hear the saying you get more flies with honey than vinegar?
You know what? I can understand why some people are uncomfortable with seeing a woman breastfeeding (I think they’re wrong, but I can understand it). What I cannot understand is why their discomfort should take precedence over the health of a baby. Breastfeeding is just better for both Mom and baby from a medical point of view. Of course some women can’t or don’t want to breastfeed for one reason or another, and that should be respected too, but if they do want to breastfeed surely we should be applauding them for trying to do what’s best for their child. Lots of things make me uncomfortable, overt displays of religiosity among them, but I accept that it’s not the responsibility of anyone else to deal with my discomfort, it’s mine. Why should this be any different?
I’m frustrated with your moving from one point to another, as if attempting to make it seem like your concern all along has been mothers who ended up bottlefeeding and are somehow now being victimized by the actions of offended nursing mothers (the subject of this piece).
Kim:
My concern is that by turning breastfeeding into a political issue or, more accurately, Barbara Walter’s audacity to admit (sheepishly, no less) that she was uncomfortable with it in a particular situation, you’re doing a bit of a disservice to yourself & the position that breastfeed being perfectly normal, healthy and a good thing. Walters’ comments (unless, in the segment she came out and said women shouldn’t ever breastfeed in public and/or that breastfeeding was bad – which, thus far no one has told me she did say; I admit I saw the one part of the segment that was repeated on the news, not the whole show), like my own supporting her right to feel less than comfortable in a given situation were not remotely similar to a postion we’ve been accused of having – that being women that nurse must be completely hidden from view, etc. Yet, the reaction has been complete attacks against our saying/implying those things. It’s this sort of politicalization of health issues that has a tendency to cause problems in the real world because there is such strong, vitriol that what comes across (in general) is this assertion that everyone must agree with everything the feminist movement says about an issue or they are some misogynist who is objectifying women. Walter’s statement (whether you think she has a right to her feelings/ her opinion or not) was not important or radical enough to make this such a huge fucking political issue. As such, it comes across in birthing classes (the women you want to make sure are properly educated and can set up coaching/support) as such instead of a health issue. There’s this accusation that anyone who thinks or acts differently than whatever the feminist view of appropriate child-rearing activities (for any reason because – from the comments here – you will be judged on what you are seen doing by a complete stranger and if it’s not “right” you will be judged poorly). To be honest, I think that some of this very harsh rhetoric is intimidating to new parents and may well have the opposite effect of what your trying to have. I also think this was not the statement worthy of this type of vitriol (again, if she said other things, someone should have responded much earlier by saying “oh yeah, she suggested a burka or women never leaving the house until their children are weaned or something – the latter of which I can imaging being the fundagelical “traditionalist” excuse for keeping women barefoot, pregnant and in the kitchen).
I think it would have been significantly more productive for someone in the” lactivist” movement to have a meeting with the producers of the view and say they were concerned that since the majority of their viewers are women, many of whom may be young mothers that might have felt it was implied they should not nurse or should never nurse in public and/or that they were concerned her statement would have made women feel less comfortable nursing (in public or not), that it might be a good idea for another segment (or whole show) dedicated to the topic and related ones that could have actually exposed the viewership to a more healthy approach or discussion to make people feel more comfortable (both in nursing, nursing in a “public” setting and those who are still jolted when they see someone nursing in public to not give a second thought to it). Instead, Walters and anyone who said anything that didn’t disparage her statement (myself included) has been attacked as being against nursing, etc.
As for your story, my best friend was the early bloomer & I was the late bloomer. I was practically concave until I was 16, when I woke up to D cups that I did not ask for! I know full well what it’s like to be teased on both sides, to have men ask my breasts out for a date without noticing the rest of me & to have men in professional settings discuss all sorts of things with my breasts (apparently they were better educated than the rest of me). I know what it’s like not to be able to get clothes because designers don’t make clothes for regular women that accommodate curves, let alone naturally boadacious tatas on a body to small to accommodate them. Throughtout my adult life, every physician I had commented that at some point I would really need a reduction but they wanted me to wait until after I had children (which at the time I had no intention of ever doing). About 5 years ago, my GP brought the issue up again because I’d had some difficulties in a Yoga class and then had my bra break during aerobic activity (quite a jarring experience); my doc had also been speaking with some lactation coaches and doulas about the problems large breasted women with a full shape have in nursing, with a lot of babies unable to latch properly and less than stellar feeding interaction for mother and child alike. When I went for my evaluation, the surgeon also discussed that problem coming up and that, while there was the potential for decreased milk production requiring supplemental feeding post surgery, that most of his patients were able to nurse whereas they weren’t with previous children (not that any of that info will ever affect me). Let’s just say, my insurance company (infamous for a no response in pretty obvious situations in which surgery would be a no brainer) approved my surgery 9 days after the evaluation (record time, I must have been worse than I thought). Anyway, the spewage of accusations that any woman who doesn’t nurse is selfish/lazy/ignorant or worse yet, didn’t try hard enough isn’t fair and again, turns this into something that appears more political which adds the frustration of any woman who is struggling and/or who has struggled in the past and is debating whether to suck it up in hopes she’ll have better luck with it the next go around.
I didn’t make any comments disparaging the notion that mother’s milk is most certainly the best source of nutrition for a child. I didn’t make any comments so much as implying that women should never breast-feed except under heavy cover, let alone that they shoudl be discourage from nursing at all. Take a look at what was hurled at me as if I said, I don’t like women to nurse in public therefore it shoud be banned and really formula is better. You don’t always need military intervention to get your point across and sometimes (as, in this case), I think utilizing it actually detracts from the point you want to make. There was a great opportunity here that I think was completely missed.
OldCranky: You are, I feel, being somewhat disingenuous here, given that in Post #5 you said, “Yes nursing is natural, so is taking a leak or dropping a load but I sure as shit don’t want to watch someone doing it – natural or not.”
Comparing breastfeeding to pissing or shitting is highly offensive. So if people here have called you out on that, they are not being unreasonable. Nor were they putting words in your mouth. You actually did say it.
You also said, “This is not about sexual objectification of a woman’s breasts,” which is a statement I personally disagree completely with. I think that sexual objectification is exactly the point: boobs should be for men’s sexual pleasure ONLY, so any other use of them is deemed disgusting and unacceptable.
You then added, “it’s about common courtesy and decorum.” Well WTF? Since when have other peoples’ ridiculous neuroses and sexist attitudes about “seemly behaviour” meant that women have a moral obligation to play along with the game that our bodies–unless they are being displayed for men’s sexual gratification–are dirty and repulsive, needing to be hidden…especially at the expense of our children’s comfort and health? People got a problem with breastfeeding? Let them sort it out without getting in breastfeeding mothers’ faces about it. It’s *their* freaking problem, after all.
There are a lot of people who are, quite sincerely, deeply offended by seeing faces that are brown or black. Is the onus on the owners of those faces to comply in the name of “courtesy and decorum”? I think not: I’d say it was on the racists, to keep their backward, hateful views to themselves, wouldn’t you? So, in the case of breastfeeing in public, why isn’t the onus of not being offensively ignorant on the person with the sexist attitude?
And I personally see nothing wrong with “politicising” social issues. Hell, as Skunk Anansie said (IIRC) “EVERYTHING is fucking political”. It’s the wishy-washy trend of trying to de-politicise the political, of making it more “seemly” and “acceptable” in the eyes of those who don’t want to deal with it, that has led to the current state where peoples’ basic rights are being eroded because everything can be reduced to apolitical “lifestyle choices”. Nobody is going to be willing to fight, or even argue, someone else’s “lifestyle choice” are they? “Hey, YOU decide to do it, YOU deal with the consequences that it’s unpopular.” Lifestyle choices are unimportant because they ARE choices: you can do them if you like, or not, either way it’s no big deal.
If we don’t politicise issues, how the holy hell are we going to get people to take them seriously enough to challenge hegemonic beliefs?
Damn, in the penultimate paragraph, that should be, “Nobody is going to be willing to fight FOR, or even argue, someone else’s “lifestyle choice”? are they?”
batgirl, I might not have conveyed it well, but I was extremely sympathetic to the daycare workers in question — having a hungry infant (who was constantly hungry, by the way, day in and day out) meant that the workers had to spend a lot of time disproportionately on that infant, and it was pretty stressful for them and for the other babies they had to take care of, crying being like yawning, that is, infectious. They did the same thing to me (as in, bottlefed before I was able to arrive) but I didn’t mind because I had the ability to use a pump. The other mom did not, and that’s why she left. She just couldn’t work out bf’ing under the circumstances and it meant a lot to her. My main point is that there are a lot of hidden obstacles to successful breastfeeding that many people don’t really think about. It wasn’t to be disrespectful to daycare workers. They really and truly felt that they were doing the right thing, but they also pretty clearly did not value breast feeding.
They really and truly felt that they were doing the right thing, but they also pretty clearly did not value breast feeding.
I’m sure they valued breastfeeding. They also valued the welfare of the group of kids they took care of as a whole.
There was a great opportunity here that I think was completely missed.
In other words, if people disagreed with you and pointed out that you were being offensive and wildly exaggerating, it’s all their fault you didn’t change your mind.
Hm, my earlier post got chopped. You catch more flies with horseshit than honey.
No, mythago, they didn’t really value breastfeeding, they pretty much viewed it as no better than the equivalent to formula, and under the circumstances inferior, because of the logistical issues it presented for them and for the babies. They definitely valued the welfare of the babies under their care, but they also shared the larger view of society, which is something other than “breast is best.” I can’t tell you how many times I told them to call me when they thought baby was hungry and I would come immediately (took about 7 minutes), and they never called, but gave her a bottle instead. I didn’t stress out about it, I just accepted it and kept that double pump stashed under my work station.
Ol Cranky: You did equate breastfeeding with taking a shit and urinating. I can’t help but think that reflects an utter contempt and disgust for those who breastfeed. And you haven’t apologized for that comment, which makes me believe that you wholeheartedly stand by those words, and the feeling behind them. I also can’t help but notice that when I and others called you on that and other statements, you used non-gender-neutral expressions to describe us and our words, namely the classic anti-woman insults “screaming harpies” and “histrionics”. Very telling.
Like it or not, breastfeeding is political. Just like everything else connected to a woman’s body. Do people have a right to be uncomfortable with breastfeeding? Sure they do! They do not have the right to express that discomfort to the breastfeeding mother. If it offends you, ignore it and move on. That’s what the polite person does.
See, here’s the thing. Barbara Walters is a nationally-known spokeswoman with quite a bit of clout. She’s also a woman who’s had to fight her own battles. I expect her to be aware of and mindful of her choice of words (and their effect). Because y’know, this isn’t her first day on the job. Feminists and La Leche League have been raising consciousness about breastfeeding for quite some time, something Barbara Walters is painfully aware of. We’ve been doing it using “honey”, so to speak, but that doesn’t always work. Sometimes ya gotta pour a little vinegar around to get rid of the crusty anti-woman attitude.
The nerve of us! How dare we! How dare I continue to sit at that table and breastfeed! I should have picked up that forty pounds of stuff and plunked myself on a toilet! Because breastfeeding is just like taking a shit, dont’cha know! What cheek, to not be cowed by those disapproving glares, which should have told me I was beyond the beyond, for doing that in public, of all places! Yick! And not only that, but to continue on, even past the just-loud-enough passive-aggressive commentary that was supposed to gain my attention!
‘Cuz y’know, I still think I deserve a gold medal for not marching over to those shit-for-brains and point-blank asking, “you got somethin’ to say to me, bitch?” But I rose above. I chose to be more polite than they.
The maddening thing about this isn’t just Barbara Walters flaunting her ignorance. It’s the fact that it happened on national television, sending the message to far too many people that breastfeeding is an offensive activity. People who will continue to feel that treating breastfeeding mothers like shit is perfectly justified, because breastfeeding mothers are doing wrong by breastfeeding in public. People who will say, “see! see! I told you that was gross!” More folks who won’t question why they feel the need to glare at breastfeeding moms. More folks who will walk by breastfeeding mothers saying things like, “she should go home and do that.” “or go to the bathroom or something, really.” Or, “GAWD!! Who does she think she is, a STRIPPER or something?!” More folks asking the management to tell breastfeeding mothers to leave. More cops called on breastfeeding mothers, even when it’s perfectly legal.
And more breastfeeding mothers who say, “Fuck it. I just can’t deal with this shit. I’ve got too much on my plate already.”
All too often, in order to be a breastfeeding mother, you have to be hyper-aware and hyper-motivated. And sometimes, more aggressive than you’d really rather have to be. I mean, Jesus Christ, I shouldn’t have to adopt a fuck-you attitude just to feed my kid. Like Kim said, I felt that surge of power, being pregnant and breastfeeding. For the first time since young childhood, I felt comfortable in my own body. For the first time since then, I felt like my body was mine. I was lucky, in that I was loaded for fucking bear when it came to breastfeeding. My daughter was born extremely premature, and had endured all kinds of complications and multiple surgeries. I saw breastfeeding as the best way to keep her from returning to the hospital (where she spent about the first six months of her life). No one was going to fuck with that protocol, period.
But many mothers don’t have much support when it comes to breastfeeding. Public ostracism is a powerful anti-breastfeeding force. I’ve heard (and read) lots of breastfeeding “horror stories”, but y’know, I can’t recall any that happened to a woman while she was with a man. Ain’t that a groove?
Breastfeeding is political. Anti-breastfeeding attitudes or beliefs are fundamentally sexist.
Alsis38.99? Thanks!! and thanks to Crys T., for quoting Skunk Anansie!
“They really and truly felt that they were doing the right thing, but they also pretty clearly did not value breast feeding. ”
Is seems very unreasonable to call daycare workers not allowed to feed a screaming hungry infant people who don’t value breastfeeding. If I understand you correctly. Very unreasonable. How can you breastfeed a child at daycare without pumping? What kind of a mother would rather be let her kid go hungry so she can stick to a rigid idea?
Old Cranky, I hate to break it to you but everything women do is political, or haven’t you noticed? What we wear, if we work, our health, our sexuality, our reproduction. Breastfeeding. And personally, I believe that there are breast feeding extremists, who want women to lactate to 4 year olds, who refuse to admit that formula works fine, too. But you did compare it to pooping and peeing and that’s fighting talk to a mother of a baby.
Elena, she was a first time mother. That’s how. She really didn’t understand that although nursing may be natural and wonderful, it isn’t always simple or unproblematic, especially if you are separated from your infant for more than a couple of hours, and when she did she made other arrangements. She may have even postponed returning to work. And I will say it again, most PEOPLE in the U.S. (which includes daycare workers) undervalue breastfeeding. That’s how they can be so oblivious to its benefits and so unsympathetic to the needs of nursing mothers and their infants. Since most people (including these workers) bottle fed their own children they see nothing amiss in bottle feeding. Maybe it’s as simple as the fact that nobody wants to accept that they didn’t do the best they could for their own children, but the wall of resistance to the superiority of breastfeeding is very clearly in place.
Elena, I would also guess that that mother was afraid—afraid that if her child got used to the bottle, that nipple confusion would result and the breastfeeding would be over. Not everyone gets productive results from a pump. I did, but it took a over a month (my daughter was NPO for most of the first two months of her life), and for the first month I literally pumped every two or three hours—meaning, I set my alarm clock and pumped in the middle of the night. (Extreme? Yeah, what the hell. My employer terminated me for asking for FMLA when I went into the hospital for early labor. What else did I have to do?)
Still, with the multiple surgeries and NPO orders, my daughter ended up with nipple confusion. For the most part, after she came home from the hospital, I had to use a breast shield to breastfeed—she preferred the feel. The only time she would nurse from my bare nipple was when she was really stressed—like from a noisy, unfamiliar environment (preemies are especially sensitive to sound and touch). And when I returned to work, she got most of her breastmilk from the bottle.
Again, I was fortunate. I gave birth at a hospital that has the “Breast-Friendly” award from La Leche League. There’s a lactation nurse available 24-7. The lactation nurse, along with the speech therapist, helped my preemie girl learn how to breastfeed right along with me, and when nipple confusion struck, the lactation nurse gave me the breast shields. This isn’t the scenario for most mothers who wish to breastfeed; it’s sink or swim. La Leche League may be the only help they get.
Re:The maddening thing about this isn’t just Barbara Walters flaunting her ignorance. It’s the fact that it happened on national television, sending the message to far too many people that breastfeeding is an offensive activity. People who will continue to feel that treating breastfeeding mothers like shit is perfectly justified, because breastfeeding mothers are doing wrong by breastfeeding in public. People who will say, “see! see! I told you that was gross!”? More folks who won’t question why they feel the need to glare at breastfeeding moms. More folks who will walk by breastfeeding mothers saying things like, “she should go home and do that.”? “or go to the bathroom or something, really.”? Or, “GAWD!! Who does she think she is, a STRIPPER or something?!”? More folks asking the management to tell breastfeeding mothers to leave. More cops called on breastfeeding mothers, even when it’s perfectly legal.
That probably is all true. However, again, I wonder if acting in anger is the best way to address her comments. Maybe I am naive in that I have never had kids and also live in a place where women seem perfectly comfortable breastfeeding in public (as they should be). I guess I think that this issue seems so obvious to me that I believe that most people when given the facts can at least understand why many women would choose to breastfeed and maybe understand why it should be ok to do it public places. The reaction in this case seems to be one that would make people already uncomfortable with breastfeeding defensive about that. And in my experience, people who are defensive dont generally listen well. So instead of really hearing the facts about breastfeeding, it becomes easy for them to dismiss the whole issue altogether.
I guess my problem with this particular protest isnt that women are angry about how they are treated when they breastfeed in public. That seems perfectly understandable to me. It is just that it really seems unfair to direct that anger at Barbara Walters who, although a public figure, is still just an individual talking honestly about how she feels. I think that if this business were a bunch of women protesting our culture and how so many people treat women who breastfeed badly, it wouldn’t grate on me so.
FWIW, I think the best way to make breastfeeding more acceptable in public is for women to simply do it more and to talk calmly about why it is so important. I think it is an issue that can be addressed without blaming. Save the angry protests for people who actually try to limit breastfeeding. Get everyone else used to the idea by desensitizing them to it. Maybe encourage television networks to show fictional characters breastfeeding. I don’t know.
Lynne,
Calm discussion definitely has a place on this issue, however, I also feel that there is also room for outrage. We’re talking about an issue that is putting the onus of understanding on the exact opposite of whom the onus should belong. We’re talking about a woman that has national exposure and spoke out to other women nationwide in a way that 1) definitely did offend a certain segment of society, 2) had the potential of making women who need support feel ‘shame’ over the very thing they need support on, and 3) gives credence to breastfeeding phobia’s in others due to her status. That’s cause enough for outrage and for Barbara to be under attack in the manner that she is (nurse-in’s and disapproving discussion).
Now, that isn’t to say that upon letting the initial legitimate outrage cool, that there isn’t room for discussion about the value of nursing and why it should be supported, but the two can go together without being in conflict. It’s important for society to know that a huge amount of women directly impacted by the support or lack thereof on breastfeeding were very offended. I was speaking to Amp and my husband about it earlier today and was discussing doing a post the benefits of nursing for both woman and child, and how important support is from a societal perspective as a follow-up to this post. What I won’t do (and I’m pretty sure others who feel the way I do) is back down from the stance that we will speak out loud and clear about this issue and not be bullied or shamed by the antiquated issues of others.
Sigh. Lynne, I get where you’re coming from. But when it came to fending off obnoxious butt-in-skis who were bothered by my breastfeeding, I quickly found that dirty looks and growls were far more effective at banishing them than nicey-nice “but my daughter is hungry, and breastmilk is better for her….” dissertations which they didn’t want to listen to. Barbara Walters probably would have sat there and listened to my daughter’s life story and our trials and tribulations through the NICU and beyond. But I didn’t encounter anyone like that. I did encounter people who really did seem to think that breastfeeding in public is every bit as smelly, disgusting, and likely to give them a dreaded disease as if I whipped down my pants and took a hot, steaming shit on the floor. Maybe it’s a cultural thing….around here, soft-pedaling a message you feel strongly about is interpreted as a license to walk all over you.
Besides, we’re talking about a nurse-in here. No pitchforks, no flaming torches, not even any calls for Barbara Walters to leave the View. Why does any expression of anger by women, no matter how controlled, have to be viewed as out of bounds? When do we, as women, get the right to express our legitimate anger?!
And in my experience, people who are defensive dont generally listen well.
In my experience, the type of person who would make loud remarks, disapproving noises or ask really idiotic questions is not going to be listening at all. I don’t care about whether the person who says “Don’t you have any shame?!” is going to get ‘defensive’ when I tell her to fuck off. She’s already an idiot. A meek lecture about the benefits of breastfeeding will not penetrate to her pea-sized brain.
I can’t tell you how many times I told them to call me when they thought baby was hungry and I would come immediately (took about 7 minutes), and they never called, but gave her a bottle instead.
That’s very different from a situation where a mother expects them not to give a bottle, no matter how hungry baby is or how close mom is.
Though personally I don’t subscribe to the view that “breast is best” means “no artificial nipple must ever cross baby’s lips.”
When do we, as women, get the right to express our legitimate anger?!
All the time! Maybe I misunderstood the point of the nurse-in. If it was intended as an expression of anger then it was effective. And although I didnt see it at first, I can even see how it could be seen as support for women who are nursing and are faced with disapproval from people in their communities. I dont see it as an especially good way to change people’s minds on this subject but maybe, as mythago suggests, those people arent listening anyway.
” When do we, as women, get the right to express our legitimate anger?!”
YEAH!!!!! I’m sick of being told to be nicey-nice all the time just so others don’t get offended…when *I’m* expected to suck up any offense directed to me, including others’ anger.
My belief is the real reason behind this insistence on women’s seemly behaviour is that no one takes you seriously until you get visibly pissed off. So if women *don’t* act pissed off, others can pretend we’re not really *that* sincere in what we’re saying.
It’s more like this: women aren’t heard until they are shouting and angry that no one is listening, and then, the response is something like “I hear you but I’m not going to listen to you because you aren’t being polite.” But when polite, of course, no one feels the need to listen at all. I’ve worked mostly with men going on 15 years now, and I learned a long time ago that you had to stop worrying whether they liked you and start speaking up. Eventually, some do listen.
If someone asked me whether I had any shame while nursing a baby, I’d say one of two things: “Do you?” or “Yes, I’d be very ashamed to let my baby starve.” Ignore those who stare but otherwise don’t try to interfere or show their disapproval. Give no quarter to rude strangers. Be easy on the merely squeamish who are amenable to reason. That’s why I think the reaction to Barbara Walters was a little too much for the perceived infraction.