Edward at Obsidian Wings quotes Spanish Prime Minister Zapatero:
“We were not the first, but I am sure we will not be the last. After us will come many other countries, driven, ladies and gentlemen, by two unstoppable forces: freedom and equality.”
I’d really like to see anti-SSM folks put their money where their mouth is by saying, for the record, what measurable empirical harms they expect will happen in Spain, Canada and Massachusetts, that would not have been expected from already existing trends. If they’re not willing to do that, then I don’t see any reason to think they have any intellectual integrity at all.
From the AP story:
[Spain’s] 350-seat Congress of Deputies, by a vote of 187-147 with four abstentions, approved the measure to give homosexual couples the same rights as heterosexual ones, including the right to adopt children.
After the tally was announced, activists watching from the spectator section of the ornate chamber cried, cheered, hugged each other, waved to lawmakers and blew them kisses. […]
The bill, which became law immediately, says: “Matrimony shall have the same requirements and effects regardless of whether the persons involved are of the same or different sex.”
Gay couples can get married as soon as the law is published in the official government registry … as early as Friday or within two weeks at the latest, parliament’s press office said.
The Netherlands and Belgium are the only other two countries that recognize gay marriage nationwide. The Netherlands lets gays adopt children. Belgium is considering the adoption issue.
Canada’s House of Commons passed legislation Tuesday that would legalize gay marriage by the end of July as long as the Senate also passes the bill, which it is expected to do.
In the United States, Massachusetts is the only state to recognize gay marriage.
In the UK, civil partnership for same-sex couples (legally, virtually identical to civil marriage for mixed-sex couples) will, by the time it becomes available (December 5th) include the same rights to apply for adoption as a couple, and step-parent adoption, for same-sex couples as for mixed-sex couples.
(In England and Wales, same-sex couples can already adopt: in Scotland, the law will change by December to enable same-sex couples to adopt.)
yay for spain! jesurgislac, do you know about northern ireland? i’ll assume same as the rest, but they still have arcane abortion laws since stormont was still functioning when the british ones got pased…
Well, if we needed to get the news today about O’Connor retiring, at least we get some good news to offset it some. Congratulations, Spain! Well done!
I don’t know what the adoption law will be/is in Northern Ireland, but civil partnership will be available in Northern Ireland to all same-sex couples, exactly as civil marriage for mixed-sex couples.
Viva España!
Woohoo!!! It’s a landslide of queer weddings! Yay!
Congrats to Spain!
This means that the United States is now more regressive than the country that gave us the Spanish Inquisition. Lovely.
It didn’t happen smothly, but in the end it happened – now, the rest of the world just has to catch up.
In Denmark there is debate about allowing adoption by gay couples, but it is not really getting anywhere. A change in Belgium might help it along.
Giving free rein to my immaturity, I’d like to divert this thread from its adult discussion to mention that I have enjoying an image of John Howard reacting to the Canadian and Spanish votes by burning marriage licenses before an altar of a 10-foot tall plastic sculpture of a sperm entering an egg.
This is wonderful news.
Could somebody please relieve Andi of her gallon drum of Port ? She’s had quite enough. Besides, it’s rude not to share.
Port? Gallon drum? I think you have confused me with an 80-year old man with gout. <ironic stealing>rolls eyes</ironic stealing>
Make that a jug of vodka gimlets or a case of Samuel Smith’s Oatmeal Stout and then maybe I’ll invite you over.
Well, at least Oatmeal Stout sounds like it might lively up breakfast a little bit. :/
I don’t expect an appreciation of such a magnificent beer from someone who lives in Portland, a city where every single microbrewed dark beer I’ve tried had chocolate in it. :-P
“altar of a 10-foot tall plastic sculpture of a sperm entering an egg”
Well, if the egg is 10 feet tall, then the size of the sperm is what? an inch? :))
“This means that the United States is now more regressive than the country that gave us the Spanish Inquisition.”
Yeah, because we all know that the Inquisition happened just last week, right?
Not trying to minimise it or anything, but it did begin 500 years ago, you know.
Also, if there is any historical event that’s relevant to this, it’s a very recent one: the Franco dictatorship. Only thirty years ago, and gays were among the targets, literally. There were severe penalties including prison and torture. After that ended, the change in Spanish society was even more radical than in other countries precisely because of that legacy, of the reaction to it.
Some of the PSOE leaders who campaigned for gay marriage in Spain also pointed out how this will set an example for Latin America, for countries who also had a recent history of dictatorships and torture.
That is a good point, but what I was really responding to was the idea implicit in Morgaine’s post that Spain is–or should be seen as–somehow inherently “more backward” than the US. Due to atrocities that were committed literally centuries ago. Again, I in no way want to minimise or gloss over those atrocities because I think it’s vital that they be remembered and understood and kept in our minds. But to talk about them as if they were representative of the Spain of today is just annoying. It’s like implying that white Americans today are still literal slave owners.
Also, regarding the Franco era: I’d like to point out that he wouldn’t have been able to maintain his dictatorship so long if all those “freedom-loving” countries like the US hadn’t been so eager to make deals with him.
And also, many, many sections of Spanish society NEVER wanted or supported him. He didn’t get into power via elections or a single coup d’etat, like most of the other dictators, but via a civil war.
Finally, I don’t claim to know about how GLBT people were being treated by the 1970s, but in general, by about the late 50s/early 60s, Franco was getting old and as a consequence Spanish society in general did actually relax quite a bit. Also, by then the tourism became a major industry so a more attractive atmosphere had to be maintained. I’m sure there were still horror stories (but again, as if there WEREN’T horror stories at the same time in the US? yeah, right), but it wasn’t quite the image of “fascist dictatorship” that you see in films.
Crys T: I of course completely agree with you, I had understood your point in replying to that comment on the Spanish Inquisition, I was only making an addition to it. Sorry if it wasn’t clear :)
Also, regarding the Franco era: I’d like to point out that he wouldn’t have been able to maintain his dictatorship so long if all those “freedom-loving”? countries like the US hadn’t been so eager to make deals with him.
Even more interesting, the direct support of Franco’s regime from the freedom-loving Vatican! Many people in Spain (not to mention Latin America, where the Vatican also supported dictatorships, torture, curtailing of civil rights, etc.) have that still fresh in their memory so that also contributed to the collective indifference and/or antipathy towards the religious-fundamentalist cries of horror from the Catholic Church. (Two thirds up to three quarters of the population support same sex marriage, so it’s clearly not limited to the Socialists supporters.)
Don’t get me wrong, my reference to Franco’s regime was in no way meant as a “oh how backwards they were”. For one thing I’m of mixed Hispanic/Italian origins and I love Spain and the Spanish people and culture, plus, the notion that coming from a country who has had a dictatorship in its recent past is somehow a shameful reflection of its society as a whole is completely alien to me (a dictatorship is a dictatorship, it’s not about spontaneous majority consent!). As is the “my country is bigger/better/more powerful than yours” mentality.
The point about Spain’s recent dictatorial past as a factor in explaining why society has been so welcoming of progress in civil rights and secularisation especially since the fall of the regime was made repeatedly by same-sex campaigners in the PSOE party. Laws against gays were harsh, I don’t know how far they were implemented but of course the regime mentality was about military machismo. The social change was more fast-paced than in other countries in Europe also because of that (and other factors too). Like an immune reaction, basically. Pedro Zerolo, who is probably the leading gay activist within Zapatero’s party (and a rather cool guy), has been making that point in several interviews I read, and also saying how this will set an example also for Latin American countries who have had similar experiences in their history.
” Sorry if it wasn’t clear :)”
Nah, that’s just me jumping the gun because I’ve got to deal with Anglo attitudes about Spain a lot…..sorry!
“Even more interesting, the direct support of Franco’s regime from the freedom-loving Vatican!”
Oh yes, well of course Franco was devoted to the Church, so I guess the fact he was having people shot for merely having different politics to him was a minor quibble in the eyes of church hierarchy.
“Many people in Spain (not to mention Latin America, where the Vatican also supported dictatorships, torture, curtailing of civil rights, etc.) have that still fresh in their memory so that also contributed to the collective indifference and/or antipathy towards the religious-fundamentalist cries of horror from the Catholic Church.”
Yes, I’m sure that helped play a part. But if I’m not mistaken, in Spain at least the process of disenchantment with the church started even before the civil war and showed in people’s enthusiasm for communist and anarchy theories. In fact, I’m guessing that this process started at least as far back as the late 15th Century, after the Reconquest with the repression and eventual expulsion of the Jews (with the forced conversions of those who remained). And hey: we’re back to the Inquisition!
Many families in Spain are still very aware of their Jewish origins, even if they’re clueless about anything regarding Judaism.
“I’m of mixed Hispanic/Italian origins and I love Spain and the Spanish people and culture, plus, the notion that coming from a country who has had a dictatorship in its recent past is somehow a shameful reflection of its society as a whole is completely alien to me”
Yes, I do remember you writing something in a recent post about the Hispanic part of your background, though I can’t remember exactly what the thread was. I am Spanish, though I spent many years in the US–until I left after the first Gulf War. Where does your family come from?
“As is the “my country is bigger/better/more powerful than yours”? mentality.”
Yeah. I’m currently living in Wales, which has a population of less than 3 million. And, though it is often an uphill battle due to the influence of all the British Empire crap that is still trumpeted in the media, many Welsh people manage to feel pride in who they are despite not being any of those things you said, but because of other things, like being generally friendly and warm (which, though I’m loathe to essentialise anyone, is actually pretty much true here).
“The social change was more fast-paced than in other countries in Europe also because of that”
Sometimes I get a bit cynical about that idea, though. I’m sure I’ve said this here before at some point, but though I am of course proud of and grateful for the fact that the transition from dictatorship to democracy took place without bloodshed, the fact is that a lot got swept under the carpet in the process. A lot of lies spread by pro-Franco factions never got publicly debunked and a lot of people with blood on their hands never had to account for their actions. In a way, there are still a lot of festering wounds in Spanish society, and that has led to some pretty unhealthy tendencies. The wholesale embracing of US-style consumer culture at the expense of Spanish culture(s) and the dominance of the Me First mentality are examples.
It’s depressing, I tell you.
Crys, or anyone, do you know what legislation was on the books in Spain that specifically targeted homosexuals? Was there any? Here in the US many states have specific laws making homosexual actions illegal or support discriminatory practices against homosexuals that would otherwise be illegal if practiced against heterosexuals? Other than traditional marriage rights, does SSM in Spain change considerable the shape and scope of the law?
According to Gay Times,
Hey, thanks for doing my homework for me Amp! :)
Crys T: agree with you again on everything you wrote, it’s true there wasn’t only a repressive right wing or no modernisation or secualirsation before the end of the regime, didn’t mean to impl that at all! But the kind of post-Franco reaction I was referring to in this respect, relevant to SSM, also has to do with this sort of thing:
Gays persecuted by Franco lose criminal status at last
The wholesale embracing of US-style consumer culture at the expense of Spanish culture(s) and the dominance of the Me First mentality are examples.
Aggh, let’s not even go there :)
It’s definitely not a phenomenon limited to Spain, though. Although, I’d rather take the excesses of consumerism than the excesses in other directions (which I stupid thing to say, I know, ideally there should be middle grounds…).
Q: Sorry I didn’t get back you earlier, but I’ve not been online. Thanks, btw, Amp for the info. I’m embarrassed to say that I don’t know much about specific laws.
Noodles: yeah, I think the example you give is related to what I was saying about how the Transition wasn’t as thorough or deep as it ought to have been. I’m fairly sure that by the 1975 when Franco died, attitudes among the general public would probably have been moderate enough to get rid of such archaic, repressive laws. But because of so many of Franco’s old pals remained on the political scene, there a lot of that stuff never got cleaned out.
And the fact that Spaniards can be pretty apathetic when it comes time to actively demand change doesn’t help.
Re the consumer culture thing: yes, it is happening everywhere. But if you compare Spain to, say, France, the difference is notable. There seems to be a lot more concern amongst the French for making their towns and cities good places to live, not just attractions for the tourist dollar. It’s hard to explain.
No – the law says “Man and woman have the right to marry in the terms of this Code.” and the amendment adds “Marriage has the same requirements and effects regardless of whether spouses are of the same or opposite sex.” Then, the amendment replaces “Husband and wife” with “Spouses”, and “Father and mother” with “Parents”, in several articles of the Code.
Changes were so small — and specially the first sentence of the law (“Man and woman…”) was kept — in order to avoid that the Constitutional Court declares it to be unconstitutional.
Note that the conservative party has challenged SSM law before the Constitutional Court, as our constitution says “Man and woman have the right to marry with full legal equality. The law shall make provision for the forms of marriage, the age and capacity for concluding it, the rights and duties of the spouses, the grounds for separation and dissolution, and their effects.”
The question before the Court is whether the Legislature is authorised to extend the definition of marriage to same-sex couples, specially under the Forms of Marriage clause. Some years ago the Court said that the Constitution protects opposite-sex marriage (this meaning that the Legislature could not delete OSM from the Code), but it did not rule out that the Legislature could extend the definition to same-sex couples.