Amanda Marcotte at Pandagon reports on a study of holding doors open.
It turns out that women seemingly don’t chew men out for holding doors open, contrary to the anti-feminist cliche (or if there was a lot of angry women chewing people out, it went mysteriously unmentioned, even though this was a study of people’s reactions to having doors held open).
However, to my surprise, for some men holding a door open for them depresses their self-esteem. I know that trying to maintain conventional masculinity can lead to anxiety, but sometimes I forget how little it can take.
To be fair, there is no indication that anyone of any gender freaked out at the door-opening man. But the only people in the study who had the emotional reaction to the door-opening that could lead to a freakout were men.
So I offer this as a counter-theory to all the men online who claim women are cruising for a confrontation if you dare open a door for them: Perhaps you are projecting your own insecurities and easy-to-offend nature onto women.
Oh, I don’t mind when somebody holds a door for me. It seems like common courtesy. What does send me into a spiral of depression, shame and anger is when someone lays their overcoat down over a puddle for me to tread upon when I’m trying to cross the street on a rainy day.
When I moved from Jerusalem to New York, holding doors open for people – and having doors opened for me – was a really odd thing to get used to. In fact, it was probably one of the biggest cultural stumbling points for me – the idea that I need to look behind me to see if anyone is coming through, and the idea that I should verbally thank people for holding a door open, was entirely alien to me. These days, people in Israel give me sideways glances a lot since I can’t stop myself from holding doors open for them. I’m still most comfortable if no one thanks me for it, though.
Wow. I am used to ON! A! COMPUTER! world shattering discoveries, but I guess this is a THROUGH! THE! LENS! OF! FEMINISM! one.
It is well known that a man’s self-esteem is reduced when anyone performs, for them, a task of which he’s capable. How well known? My wife teaches it in Introduction to Psychology, as one of the examples of societal indoctrination. It is amazing how powerful these effects are, even when they are completely culture dependent, and even relatively recent. (I prefer the pink room experiment, personally, because of the fact that pink has been a emasculating color only for about a century, and because of the start contrast with members of cultures where pink isn’t considered a female color.)
So I guess that because it’s a specific task, and because someone has brought feminism into it, it’s brilliant, original research? Where was it published? Social Text?
I find it interesting that I have never, ever heard another feminist proudly say that some guy tried to open a door for her and she fixed his shit but good.
Someone named “Anonymous” just left this comment. I didn’t approve it because I really don’t think he’s someone I want to talk to, but I thought it was funny enough, in its pettiness and its misogyny, to want to share with “Alas” readers. Here we go:
There you go, ladies – when some dude rushes forward to cut in front of you in a doorway, and pauses there for a couple of seconds so he can look at you and check out your reaction, remember that it’s your own fault for wanting to be able to go to college and have equal pay. That’ll learn ya!
I certainly got chewed out loudly in public for holding a door open for a woman. It happened quite a while ago. But it definitely happened. After the litany of “do you think I’m too weak to open a door”, “woman are not helpless creatures”, “we don’t need men to protect us”, etc., I was asked “were you taught that women needed doors held for them”, I said “No, I was taught that it was rude to let a door shut in someone’s face.” Then I let the door shut in her face and got going.
It hasn’t happened since. But then I tend to move in circles where common courtesy is actually common and people aren’t in a contest to claim victim status.
Oddly enough, most of the time these days doors are held open for me. One of the receptionists where I work gets up and opens the interior door to the building when people come in. I felt odd about it – she’s the receptionist, not my servant, her job doesn’t pay as much as mine but that doesn’t mean she should defer to me. So I said something to her. Her reply was that she did it because otherwise all she’d do all day is sit there and she needed the exercise.
Perhaps you are projecting your own insecurities and easy-to-offend nature onto women.
Or perhaps the mere absence of a shower of thanks for gallantry is seen as a rebuff among those for whom their own identity of Protector of the Weaker Sex is an important (and fragile) thing…
What jumped out at me about this research is how little it actually “disproves” anything. Is the myth really that many women get enraged when a door is held open? Or, is the myth that a few outliers make a big enough stink that it’s just not worth it anymore?
Because if it’s the latter (and that’s always been my understanding of the argument) an experiment that captures the self-reported feelings of approximately 50* women who had doors held open isn’t exactly guaranteed to capture the third or fourth standard deviation.
*According to the article there were 196 subjects in the experiment. This included men and women, and half were in a control group.
Overall, this reminds me of the urban legend that if you flash your headlights at another car to let them know their lights are off, they might follow you home and kill you as part of a gang initiation. Nobody thinks that is the normal outcome, but lots of people stop flashing their lights, just in case. A survey that shows that 99.9% of us are grateful when someone lets us know that our headlights are off wouldn’t really prove or disprove the urban legend.
“the door-opening man?” Why didn’t they test with a door-opening woman as well?
I once had an experience where a man (a professor, when I had just started grad school) held a door open for me. I said “Thanks” and kept on walking. I speak pretty quietly to begin with, and I had a bad sore throat that day, so I was really just whispering, and I guess he didn’t hear my “Thanks,” because he bent down to get his face level with mine and said, “You say thank you when someone opens a door for you.” I was like, what? But I whispered, as best as I could, “I did,” and kept on walking.
We used to have a social norm where most door-holding was, along with other forms of exaggerated public politeness, an expected trait in an inferior, and (in a reversal of that status called “chivalry,” from men to women.)
In that context it wasn’t surprising that feminists* who had doors held for them by men would, in some rare cases, object to the potentially coded message.
Now, since it’s more universal, the percentage of chivalry-motivated things have gone down and there’s less motivation (on a statistical level) for anyone to glare at anyone else.
I’ve been snarked at before a few times as well–and wrongly, as it happens, since I was (and am) one of those people who just holds the door for anyone–sometimes even if I’m not going through it and they are carrying/pushing/wheeling stuff. But whatever, who cares. I’ve snarked at people wrongly in my life too.
But this is sort of silly:
I don’t think that there was ever a real claim that all women would react poorly to doors being held for them. Just the opposite, in fact: the snark was, in my memory, almost exclusive to feminists, who are and have been a relative minority of women.
And, of course, the percentage of feminists who object to receiving female privilege from men has apparently shrunk as well.
So did this idea become so entrenched b/c it happened to a person over and over? Or is this all based on the one time it happened, and while the woman may have basing her complaint in feminism, she could have also been just having a bad day, or been a pill to begin with? But it conforms to the image we have, perhaps, of what a certain person (in this case, a feminist) is like, so we’re okay with letting that story stand as “just what happens when you open doors for women today”?
What I’ve always found odd about this type of myth is that I’ve had plenty of experiences out in public w/strange men who have been violent/aggressive/creepy towards me (I’m a woman) and while that has had an effect on me, I don’t use those experiences to say all men are violent/aggressive/creepy to women they don’t know. Because I don’t believe that, based on experience and things I’ve learned. But when I hear about a belief like this, or one based on another stereotype, I wonder if perhaps I should. I’m not willing to, because I think these types of stories can be more about who our society allows us to see as individuals, and who we want to put in boxes (and generally, put away on the shelf).
This all sounds pretty dated, but remember that this wasn’t just about holding doors to buildings. Men literally used to get out of the driver’s seat, run around to the passenger seat, and open the car door for women, all in the name of chivalry. I assume the women in question were supposed to coo and curtsy in response ;) I recall reading opinions on such things, and I suspect feminism was involved in making them go away.
But for sure there’s been a social change. When I was a kid, I remember being told to hold doors for women, elderly people, and disabled people. By the time I was a late teen, I was being told to hold doors for people. And best of all, they do the same for me. If feminism was responsible then thank you, feminism!
Bingo. If there was a time (which I sort of doubt) when there were widespread negative reactions to holding the door for women, I suspect it was because of the implicit grouping you point out, GNW – “Hi, I’ll hold the door for you, because you’re incapable of opening it yourself!”
Since the association has become one of common courtesy for people, rather than creating a grouping of, “incapable people who need a big strong man’s help,” shockingly people aren’t insulted! Weird, right?
—Myca
Well, I did one time tell a male friend of mine that standing aside to let the women in the party enter a row of theater seats first was wrong because he ended up blocking the entire aisle and didn’t leave enough room for the women to get into the seats. Plus we wanted to sit mixed up. But I didn’t see anyone taking notes for later pundit-like remarks on the matter.
I do agree with G&W about the way that “men hold doors open for women” has been replaced, in my lifetime, by “people hold doors open for people,” and consider it a great improvement. But one thing has deteriorated: when I was a kid, boys (and usually, but not always, girls) were always told by their accompanying adults to stand up (in buses, subways, waiting rooms, etc.) when an elderly person was there, so the elderly person could sit. But these days no one does that. I was out with my 95-year-old father-in-law a few weeks ago when we had to wait for a seat in a restaurant, and there were a couple of little girls sitting there with their phones and coloring books, and they didn’t offer to get up and their mother stared right at my doddery old f-i-l teetering there and didn’t tell them to. I call that a major disimprovement.
I don’t think the ‘give up your seat on the subway’ norm has really gone away.
I hold doors for women, elderly people, etc. and also stand up on the subway when there’s a woman or an elderly person without a seat . it would never occur to me to do either one for a healthy looking man.
I think Rod Dreher noted awhile ago that in his experience, working class men and Black men were more likely to give up their seat on the subway than middle class and upscale white men.
There are two distinct door-holding phenomena that sometimes get confused in conversations like this.
The first is when person A is walking a few steps ahead of person B. Person A opens the door, walks through it, and then holds it open so it doesn’t slam in person B’s face. This is common courtesy for anyone to do for anyone.
The second is when person A is walking ahead of, next to, or behind person B. Person A rushes to the door and opens it but stands aside and doesn’t go through until after person B has gone through. This is appropriate if person B has their hands full, is pushing a stroller or cart, or would have a hard time opening the door for some other reason. Otherwise, in my opinion, it’s annoying, but not the biggest deal in the world.
Another Delurker,
It’s the second form I’m talking about, not sure which one other people are referring to. I think the second one is the one which is, uh, controversial between feminists and cultural conservatives.
It’s not rocket science.
When two people are walking toward the same door, the first one to reach it grabs the handle.
If the door opens away from him, he pushes it open, walks through, glances backwards, and if the alternative is letting it slam into the second person’s face, he may choose instead to hold it open.
If the door opens towards him, he has to pull backwards to open it. Sometimes, the second person has caught up, and depending on where he’s approaching from it may be more awkward for the first person to go first.
Personally, if I am the second person, I try to make sure to get behind the person who is opening the door, so that it would be easy for him to go through, and easy for me to grab the door as he does so. Thus I try to remove any incentive for him to hold the door, because, frankly, I do not like people holding the door for me. Usually it’s young men who do it, and it makes me feel old.
If I am the first person, I try to read the body language of the person coming behind me. If they are coming in a way that I would have to squeeze between them and door to go first, I may still do it, if they are male, close to my size, and I judge them pushy. If they look unaware, which is nearly always the case , I will hold the door. Sometimes, they will step back to let me go first, and I will. I have never had someone abuse me when I’ve held the door, although I have seen a guy being reamed for it.
As far as I am concerned, if anyone has to do something that looks awkward, someone did something wrong. It’s like two lanes merging. There’s never a problem, unless one of the drivers is either an asshole or not paying attention. Smart people deal with it, and immediately forget about it. I wish I could say I always do that…
It is well known that a man’s self-esteem is reduced when anyone performs, for them, a task of which he’s capable.
Funny, but I haven’t yet heard of all this plummeting male self-esteem when it comes to people (especially a significant subset of people—let’s call them “women”) doing tasks like cooking and cleaning for them. Y’know, tasks which men are perfectly capable of doing.
Wonder why that is….. (/snark)
THIS. Thank you!
I like holding doors open for people of any sex, and I like having doors held open for me. I also like giving up my seat for the elderly and the burdened (i.e., people with loads of packages they’re struggling to carry) of any sex. It’s a chance to have a tiny, friendly social moment with strangers. Also, in the case of services to the elderly, it’s sort of a karmic “down payment” on my future, when I’m someday old enough that I hope people will give up seats for me.
Another Delurker @ comment 19:
I call the first “passing a door” rather than “holding a door”, since generally what happens is you hold the door open long enough for the next person to start holding it – you’re sort of passing along the door holding. I had to break my husband of the habit of doing the “chivalrous” form of door-holding or opening car doors or any of that. He walks significantly slower than I do, and if he does hold doors I have to stand around and wait for him. I really don’t understand this holding doors for women, giving women seats thing; it’s irritating at best and obstructive at worst. It’s rather like those irritating people who are obtrusively polite while driving; they stop for you to cross the street even when you have pressed the walk button and are waiting, even if they’re holding up the entire traffic pattern by doing so, even if there’s a long period of no cars after them and they could be through the intersection in a second. The help they give is insignificant and the aggravation great.
Apart from anything else, I dislike extremely the feeling that I am out and about as a woman, not just as a person. I mean, I’m not buying groceries or looking at books for the purpose of people thinking “Oh! A woman!” and then performing all their little woman-related rituals. I’m buying groceries because I need them. It has nothing whatsoever to do with anybody else.
I do think that matters would be exceedingly improved by most buildings having separate exit and entrance doors. It does get awkward in a narrow doorway with people carrying bags or pushing strollers trying to go both ways. You never know if you’re more in the way on the door side or the open side of the doorway.
Thank you, La Lubu. Thank you, thank you, thank you.
I suspect that it only shreds their self-esteem, though, if it’s a task they were going to do themselves. Tasks which they expect others to do, or which they consider beneath them, and particularly which they consider feminine or ever feminizing, prolly don’t count.
Grace
Way back in the 1990s, when I was in graduate school, I had a guy get all pissy with me because I held the door open for him. “Just what I need,” he said, “a woman holding the door for me.”
I didn’t blame MRAs* for his behavior, though. Or all men either. I just said, to myself, “Wow, what a jerk,” and moved on.
Mostly I find that both men and women react well to having the door held open for them. As do I.
(*Not that there were MRAs back then. Or at least none that I knew about.)
well i daresay its that the self-esteem loss isn’t because something they are capable of doing was being performed for them, but because, in their minds, people were treating them as if they were women.
RonF @6, I’m sure that such women exist, just as men exist who hold doors only because it gives them an excuse to check out a woman’s ass when she walks through ahead of them. The idea that ‘yelling at guys who hold doors’ is some kind of widespread feminist phenomenon, though, or that feminists believe any man holding a door for them should get a ‘hollaback’? No.
I like to think about these acts of chivalry, like opening doors for women and giving up seats on public transit, in tandem with the way men take up space in public and shove women out of the way (sometimes literally):
I think it adds weight to the idea of chivalrous acts being a reinforcement of the target’s inferior status, rather than a sign of respect or politeness. As the one commenter noted, most guys apologized, so it’s not a conscious, deliberate act like holding a door open for a woman or giving up a seat, which makes it more revealing of what a man actually thinks of women.
Re: I really don’t understand this holding doors for women, giving women seats thing; it’s irritating at best and obstructive at worst
What’s not to understand about it?
It’s part of the code of the ethics by which the strong are supposed to protect the weak.
I’m sorry, Hector_St_Clare, what? What exactly is a man holding the door protecting me from, biceps strain? Breaking my nose from walking into the door? What?
I have just been to the grocery store, which is nearly two miles down the hill and then two miles up again, and I once (at 44) walked nearly ten miles home when the person who was supposed to pick me up had car trouble, and rode my bike the same distance to work and back the next day, too, all of that in the heat of summer, and any man who thinks he should indulge himself in his notion of chivalry by making a point of holding the door for me ought to do the same as well before he so much as touches the door handle. Weak. Right.
This isn’t about *you*, Leda’s Mom, it’s about women as a sex, men as a sex, and the roles that each of them are drawn to in a healthy society.
I’m with Ledasmom on the question, Hector. What dangers do doors pose to women?
Yes, I think that who opens the door for who is pretty strongly indicitive of the health of a society.
The more egalitarian, the healthier.
Great point, Hector. Glad to see you’re coming around.
—Myca
The role I’m drawn to is not having men pointlessly open doors for me. Works for me.
Incidentally, I prefer to have my name punctuated as written.
No, ladies, you don’t understand. If you don’t share Hector’s fetish for gender-role differentiation, then it’s not simply that your tastes run in different directions or de gustibus non est disputandem. It’s that you’re wrong and you’re ruining the world with your failure to melt when a manly man holds the door for you. You know that annoying subset of polyamorous folks who insist that all the world’s relationship ills are cause by monogamy’s possessiveness, and if we all just turned poly and loved one another, all our problems will be solved? Like that.
Miss Manners once made the excellent point that a lot of issues over the door thing comes through the confusion of social manners and business manners. If I’m on a date and my date opens the door for me, that’s much different than if I’m at a business conference and a male colleague opens a door for me.
I always suspected that what was wrong with the world was me, and now I know for sure.
Also, memo to self: Look out for vicious doors. Wait for man to hurl himself at them first. This is important.
Oh my god. Guys, I can’t tell you how much I love this! I’m imagining that in the alternate history Hector hails from, all doors are 15-foot-tall, viciously bladed and spiked steel deathtraps, and that ‘protecting women from doors’ was (instead of just being a way of insultingly including ‘women’ as ‘incapable of performing basic tasks’) some sort of vital function necessary for species survival.
It all makes sense!
—Myca
@Ampersand, I like the comic you chose to illustrate this!
@another delurker et al, the study is about the form where, rather than “passing” the door (thanks for that phrase, Ledasmom!) and going through before the next person, the door-holder allows the person they’re holding the door for to go first. (I’m not sure how many, if any, of the people discussing this were unsure about the original study vs. just clarifying which form they were talking about later.)
Slate’s Katy Waldman had an interesting analysis, pointing out that part of what’s going on here has to do with unexpected help
In my area (rural New England), passing the door is very common but holding the door (for people who can easily open it) is fairly uncommon, regardless of which way the door opens. I will hold the door if someone’s hands are not free, whether it’s because they are carrying something or they have a cane. (If I’m paying attention, I’ll do it even when I’m not going through the door, just nearby it.) I don’t really like it when people hold the door for me if I think they’re doing it because I’m a woman, but it’s not a big deal and I can rarely be certain that that’s why they’re doing it, so I just say thanks. I think that door-holding w/o passing is uncommon enough that it is somewhat into the awkward “unexpected help” category for me.
Re: Yes, I think that who opens the door for who is pretty strongly indicitive of the health of a society. The more egalitarian, the healthier.
Uh, no. Clearly we have very different ideas about what an ideal society would look like.
Re: The role I’m drawn to is not having men pointlessly open doors for me. Works for me.
The problem is that your preferences aren’t universal. There are lots of *other* women who like to have doors opened for them, and all the other accoutrements of the old chivalric code. When I meet someone I don’t know, I have no idea if they’re a feminist like you, or a culturally conservative woman. So, I’m going to treat them like my own moral code dictates. If you complained, then I wouldn’t hold the door anymore (and would privately probably roll my eyes and laugh).
Re: If you don’t share Hector’s fetish for gender-role differentiation, then it’s not simply that your tastes run in different directions or de gustibus non est disputandem. It’s that you’re wrong and you’re ruining the world with your failure to melt when a manly man holds the door for you
Yea, people who hold a particular worldview tend to think people who hold the contrary world view are wrong. I’m not sure whom this is supposed to surprise. I’d like a world less influenced by feminist values, yes.
Yea, people who hold a particular worldview tend to think people who hold the contrary world view are wrong.
I don’t think you have to hold ‘feminist values’ to disagree with people who want to make their particular fetishes mandatory for everyone, or think the only reason anyone wouldn’t share that fetish is ignorance or perversity.
Hector St. Clare:
So why not actually talk about greater capability versus lesser capability? There is an elderly gentleman at my church who walks laboriously with a cane. When I’m in a position to do so, I hold the door for him or shift a chair out of his way for him. He thanks me.
Instead, you code weak as woman and strong as man, which makes individuals prisoners of generalizations about vast, diverse groups. As of my last fitness test, I am as strong and fast as about half the men aged 18-29 who do fitness tests, and I’m substantially older than that. If my hands aren’t full and I haven’t sprained my ankle, why on earth should men open or hold a door for me, unless they would do it for anyone in the same circumstances? Fine, pass me the door (elegant turn of phrase, Ledasmom). But making a point of opening the door for me in circumstances where you would not open it for a man is either lazy thinking, reducing both of us to caricature, or flirtation. And I’m a married, monogamous woman, so what does that potentially say about your intentions, and your estimation of my character?
People have opened doors for me. I haven’t spoken harshly to anyone for it. In the right circumstances, mainly between friends who have a shared context, it can be amusing play (and likewise when I hold the door unnecessarily for someone). But it can very easily be smarmy or condescending, especially between strangers. The people who have gone before you have planted a minefield, by trying to imprison individuals in a structure of vast overgeneralization. Best to avoid the minefield and act on actual capability.
When my colleagues and I are loading equipment out of cruiser trunks, in and out of the back door of the station, we routinely pass the door, or go out of our way to open the door for whomever’s hands are full. Gender has nothing to do with it.
Are you saying that my calling to be a police officer, that my work in that context as a tactical operator and use-of-force instructor, that I was inspired to design and build the house my family lives in, that these things are unhealthy? Or perverse?
Grace
GiW:
I was taught the same thing back in about 1963 in semi-suburban Massachusetts. Feminism certainly wasn’t responsible for it in my case, anyway.
mythago:
Are you proposing that those are ideas that were presented in my post?
SURVEY TIME!!
“Passing” a door means “going in/through the door and holding it open so that the next person can take the door without pulling it open.” If you get there first and pass a door, you enter the building first.
“Holding a door” means “standing to the side of the door and holding it open so that someone can go through entirely unimpeded.” If you get there first and hold a door, then they will go in ahead of you.
WHAT DO YOU ALL DO?
I pass doors for everyone who is close enough. I try not to cause the “feel like you have to run to get the door” thing.
I hold doors for folks who are elderly; visibly disabled, injured, frail, or otherwise wobbly; or who are carrying or pushing kids/packages/suitcases/wagons/UPS hand trucks/strollers/etc. A higher proportion of these are women because of the presence of kids and strollers, but I don’t hold doors more for women per se.
But isn’t the decision to pass or to hold to a great deal dependent on the door design – that is, does it swing out or swing in?
(I realize some doors swing both ways, and what exciting lives they have. But many doors do not.)
With strangers, I almost always pass the door. If there’s somebody who it looks like would require extra effort (pushing strollers, carrying stuff, etc.), I’ll hold the door. With friends or colleagues, I’ll often hold the door.
You’re right, Amp.
I should rephrase: In my mind, “passing” is something where you maintain your position in line. You can do it from either side of the door assuming your arms are strong enough, which is to say that you can pull a door towards you, go in through the door frame, stand inside and use your hand (right next to the hinge) to hold the door open and “pass” it to the next person. Obviously it’s easier if your travel direction matches the door direction and I concede that it can require a very hard push otherwise.
“Holding” is something where you cede your position. If the door swings towards you, that means opening it, stepping aside for them, and entering second. If it swings away from you that means exiting, stepping aside (to clear the exit) while holding the door, and proceeding after they have left.
My theory is that it’s the act of ceding your position and not the physical act of holding the door which makes people feel funny. Especially in America, where we are unusually focused on perceived fairness in such things.
E.g., perhaps you’d like to hold the door for the lady with a stroller, two shopping bags, and two toddlers… but you don’t especially want to stand behind her in the coffee shop line.
I pass the door to anyone close enough.
I hold the door to anyone carrying bulky stuff/pushing a stroller or walker, anyone with a visible disability/injury that would make it difficult for them to keep the door open, and for young children. I sometimes also hold the door open for geese, assuming they’re trying to leave the building rather than enter it.
Eytan Zweig, what if they’re female geese carrying bulky stuff and pushing a walker? Would you hold the door for them to enter the building then?
Ledasmom – that is a moral dilemma indeed.
The main thing about geese, of course, is that they just don’t understand how doors work. In that, they are similar to all those feminists we keep hearing about. I mean, sure, women have the physical capacity to open doors, but then they might start going in and out of places, and inadvertently end up somewhere they’re not welcome, like a man’s restroom or a company boardroom or indeed anywhere else where men are busy making real decisions. As Hector so wisely points out, it’s far better for society if women simply get used to men opening doors for them – that way, they’ll never cross a doorway without being sure that a man approves of it.
Well, this is the first I’ve heard the word ‘ideal’ here. Your earlier claim was about ‘a healthy society,’ so I’ll stick with that.
Can you offer an example, current or historic, of what you’re thinking of when you refer to a ‘healthy society’?
I ask because it seems an awful lot like the more power and control cultural conservatives have over a society, and the more the leadership of that society is sex/gender exclusionary, the more likely that society will be really unhealthy and abusive.
And look, I’m asking for actual examples rather than, “our culture would be just super-healthy if everyone loved Jesus,” or whatever. Don’t give me your theories, gimmie a ‘for example.’
—Myca
I already partially answered g&w’s survey before it got started, but anyway:
I pretty much always pass the door if people are behind me, regardless of whether I know them or not, and whichever way it swings open. I actually found it a little confusing when I first heard people talking about door-holding depending on which way the door swings. I mean, it pretty much just affects whether you are positioned before or after the doorway when you pause with the door, the way I do it. Sometimes people think I’m holding the door for them and letting them go first when I was going to pass the door to them, and if I figure that out in time I will hold the door for them instead.
I generally only hold the door when someone looks like they will have more difficulty than normal with the door, e.g. carrying things, poor mobility. But sometimes I don’t notice that in time and feel bad afterwards for not holding the door.
Re: inadvertently end up somewhere they’re not welcome, like a man’s restroom or a company boardroom or indeed anywhere else where men are busy making real decisions
I’d gladly trade the society we have right now, for one in which there were fewer women in boardrooms and decision-making positions, and in which men treated women with the respect and the chivalric code that were characteristic of a more civilized age.
Are you aware of the actual lives led by women in the chivalric prime of medieval Europe? My reading indicates that women were treated neither chivalrously nor with respect. None at all. Chivalric myths are just that. Myths.
What reasonable human being would wish that on anyone?
Chivalry was never a code where men treated women with respect. It was a code where noblemen treated ladies of their own rank and birth with exaggerated courtesy, and treated all other women like animals. The Art of Courtly Love literally advises that it’s okay to rape peasants because they’re stupid like cattle and don’t mind much.
Hector is arguing that women should be forcibly stripped of money, power and decision-making because he enjoys opening doors for them and buying them roses.
ETA: Jake, remember that the courtly ideal romance was an unmarried man chastely pining after another man’s wife, also. It was never meant to be a blueprint for healthy relationships.
My door opening habits are almost exactly closetpuritan’s. (Up to and including the not noticing people in need of assistance and feeling bad about it.) I have one other caveat to add: when traveling in a large group, often coworkers going to lunch, say, if we come upon a door that opens towards us, I will hold that door instead of passing it. If you’ve got a dozen people in a row it’s just faster.
I find the “kids these days don’t stand on public transit” meme really interesting. The first place I ever heard it, it was actually not about age but about location: the anecdote was that only two people of many passengers stood when an elderly woman got on a train in NYC. The two got to talking and realized one was from Iowa and the other from Illinois, the point of the anecdote, clearly, being that people from the Midwest were much more polite and civilized than their coastal counterparts. It seems that everyone agrees you should stand, but that hardly anyone does, so it must be Your People who are behaving properly.
(And now I’m remembering a conversation where my mother expressed surprise that some Goth teenagers held the library door for her. Apparently black clothing makes one impolite?)
Last time I was heavily pregnant and relying on public transit, it was always the goth and punk kids who jumped up to offer me their seats.
When I was in grad school, I took Amtrak between DC and NJ pretty often, and generally needed help getting my suitcase onto a shelf, both because I’ve got unstable joints and because I’m really short. I learned pretty quickly that, if I asked a thirty-something white guy with a “businessman” look about him for help, then he would almost certainly sigh and moan and roll his eyes and scowl at me. (In my entirely unscientific study, the people most likely to help me and be polite about it were late-teen and twenty-something guys in “thuggish” clothing who were on the train with someone who looked like their girlfriend.)
I remember, Mythago, I remember. I’m not sure that Hector is aware of that. If he is aware of the courtly romance, it’s worse than I thought.
Re: Hector is arguing that women should be forcibly stripped of money, power and decision-making because he enjoys opening doors for them and buying them roses.
No, I’m arguing that in a society without feminist indoctrination, fewer women would be interested in achieving high-status, leadership positions to begin with.
See, shit like this is why I was asking for a specific time and culture … because otherwise it’s so easy to vaguely reference, “well, y’know, men used to be nicer to girls and stuff.”
It’s a lot harder to defend, “We need to be more like 13th century France.”
So Hector … I’m sure none of us want to attack a straw man. Please, tell us where and when this ‘healthy culture’ you speak of was.
—Myca
Also, for signs of a “more civilized age” I invite you to read up at a site like executed.com. If you think breaking on the wheel is more civilized, there’s not a whole lot more that needs to be said.
Hector:
You know, Hector, this is precisely the kind of argument that white people once used in this country to argue against educating Black people, but before I say more about that, I am wondering if you’d be willing to define precisely what you think feminist indoctrination is and how you think it is accomplished.
This paper shows how, even while the chivalric code was the rule of the day, a not insignificant number of women were not satisfied with Hector’s preferred gender roles.
One size fits all is no way to have a happy, healthy society.
There are a lot of people who find Black people and women to be equally inferior, Richard. I’ll never forget my co-worker’s complaint about the people working at the local IBM branch. “***Racist slurs*** and women,” he said.
Ime, if you’re willing to believe one group of people is inferior, you’re probably going to believe that several groups of people are inferior.
Some thoughts on door holding (please note that I have not, at this time, had a chance to read all of the responses):
Door opening is an ingrained part of North American culture. I have been holding doors open ever since I was old enough to do so. It was taught to me while growing up as the gentlemanly thing to do. Also, I witnessed it in public all the time and, like most children, mimicked my role models.
[Brief, off topic, sidestep here: it has always kind of irked me whenever some entertainment or sports star is accused of being a poor role model. Not because it may or may not be true in that particular case, but because it obscures the more important fact that we are all role models – positive or negative – for children. No matter what you are doing, whether it is smoking a cigarette or not, eating healthy food or junk food, treating someone respectfully or disrespectfully, if you are being observed by a child then you are a role model for that child.]
Back to the topic at hand:
There are two types of door holding. The Full Hold, where you open the door all the way and step aside to allow the other person to precede you, and the Half Hold where you precede the other person but stop in the entrance way, turn sideways, and hold the door open with your extended arm.
I never gave much thought to the sexism inherent in the two different styles but now that I do think about these things more often, I realize the following: I use the half hold for healthy adult men and the full hold for everyone else (elderly or disabled men and all women).
The decision on whether to use a half hold or full hold is very quick, almost instinctual, but clearly rooted in a sexist outlook.
To use the half hold for healthy adult men is too insult them by implying that they weak or worse . . . womanly (GASP! The Horror!). I know this because I always feel a little insulted when another man performs a full hold for me. I think, just what the hell are you implying, sir? Of course, I say “thank you” (since it is expected and there is no sense in starting a ruckus over a three second encounter). Also, I’ve seen the expressions on men who apparently feel I’ve misjudged them as being unworthy of the more masculine half hold. None of them has ever objected, however (Note: the full hold prohibition does not apply to men who are using both hands to carry something).
No woman has ever objected to me holding a door open for her. Never. Nada. Zip. Most seem to appreciate the courtesy. Responses have ranged from delighted surprise to genuine gratitude to perfunctory gratitude to silent indifference. I have to admit that I feel a little slighted in the last two cases, but I give the benefit of the doubt and presume that some sort of preoccupation is the cause of the (really quite minor) social faux pas (besides, I’ve been guilty of it myself from time to time . . . who hasn’t?). Most of the delighted surprise reactions come from black women . . . and isn’t it sad what that says about our society?
I love the cartoon. I am overweight and have more than once been in that situation, thinking those exact same thoughts. But I wonder if they are justified. One of the problem areas in door holding etiquette is when someone is right on the edge of the Zone of Obligation. That is, the area in which you feel that you are obligated to wait for someone who is approaching the door. No doubt the perceived zone of obligation varies from door holder to door holder but I have gotten the feeling that the zone of obligation is smaller when the approaching person is overweight (impatience with the slower moving overweight person being the main reason, I suspect). Thus the door holder in the cartoon is (probably) NOT engaging in anti-fat discrimination by adhering to the same zone of obligation that he would for a thin person. That is a good thing . . . but it is still annoying.
Incidentally, I too make sure that I extend the same zone of obligation to an approaching overweight person knowing full well that they may in fact resent it for the same reasons I do. But being overweight myself, I just can’t bring myself to disrespect them for the same reasons others might. My hope is that, being overweight like me, they understand my motivation. If they do start to hurry up I give them a good natured smile and say, “no need to hurry on my account.” Whether this helps or not, I’m not really sure.
Because door holding is so ingrained in me, I don’t see myself changing my behavior (at least until I get too old to hold doors) in this area anytime soon . . . with one exception: I have decided that from now on I will not hurry up to appease a door holder. They started it, they should see it through. If they do loose patience and abandon the door I have enough sense of self worth to not get huffed about it. Besides, I am manly enough to open the door for myself.
Oh, I forgot about this:
So I guess that because it’s a specific task, and because someone has brought feminism into it, it’s brilliant, original research? Where was it published? Social Text?
Yup, no one ever says that sort of thing about research that’s unrelated to feminism.
Questioning and testing your assumptions is part of how science works. And folk wisdom can seem convincing but eventually prove to be wrong once it is actually investigated.
More particular to this study: the researchers may have believed this–in fact they probably did, since it’s hard to get a lack of effect published–but sometimes it’s useful to have actual evidence, especially if there are other people who believe otherwise. Or they may have been unsure that as small an act as holding a door would be enough to make a difference.
“There are two types of door holding.”
Where a door has a gradual closer on it and the person behind me is, say, 10 feet or so away, I often just give it a shot with my arm to pop it all the way open. They can just walk through – or at least grab it – before it closes.
Oh, I’ll run with the off-topic a bit:
It has always irked me when a sports figure says “I don’t want to be a role model, I just want to play *ball.” Tough. That’s not how it works. As I tell the older Scouts in my Troop, the issue is not whether or not you’re a leader. You are. It’s inescapable. You’re going to be looked up to by the kids and there’s absolutely nothing you or I or anyone else can do about that. The only question is where you will lead them. So step up, take responsibility like an adult and lead correctly.
closetpuritan, did you just equate “specific example of already-published phenomenon presented as original research” and the “did we need a study” meme? The ‘scientists’ in the article tested a special case of “Males’ self-esteem is negatively affected by having a task within their abilities accomplished for them”, similar to testing whether Tibetan Mastiffs are affected by classical conditioning. The “did we need a study” meme is about studying something that appears to be self-evident, but has not been rigorously researched before.
Also, did you also prime the condescending “Let me google that for you” with something that -you- brought to the conversation?
As for you ‘small act’ justification, one of the previous studies (the ones that identified something not already taught in Psyc101) used plants filling out the subject’s information in the form they were to submit before (they thought) the test began.
Sebastian,
I didn’t know “did we need a study” was a meme that was widely understood to be limited to things that had had little/no research.
Testable, repeatable results are part of the scientific method. Perhaps, given the changes in door-holding over the last two or three decades, we might even learn things by investigating it repeatedly over time.
I do admit to reading your comment carelessly and thinking it brought in folk wisdom as well as the pink room study and implied other studies.
Also, the lmgtfy was done as an expression of impatience with this line of argument and how common it was. I may not be familiar with “did we need a study” as a meme people have critiqued, but I’ve seen it in expressed sincerely in comments enough to be sick of hearing it. And based on your reaction that wasn’t the best way to communicate that, but I suppose when I see an argument that I’m impatient with I tend not to communicate as well.
I am pretty sure this myth of women getting angry with men holding doors is a conflation of two things: Holding a door because it’s polite, and holding a door because you expect something in return. When you don’t get what you want from the woman you are holding a door for, that turns into “Women are such bitches. They just hate all men holding doors. They don’t like anybody holding doors.”
Which couldn’t be further from the truth, but you keep telling yourself that. Really this is your problem, not women’s.