A new study (actually, three linked studies) in the academic journal Personal Relationships found that men who give flowers are also more likely to be abusers. Put another way, men who abuse their wives or girlfriends also have to work harder at convincing their wives or girlfriends to stay.
“The authors also found that acts of vigilance — such as dropping by unexpectedly to see what partners were doing, and calling to make sure a partner was where she said she would be — were the clearest predictors of violence, followed by acts of emotional manipulation.”
From the November 4 issue of Chronicle of Higher Education: The more often men give flowers to their lovers, or engage in other “mate-retention behaviors” such as vigilance or emotional manipulation, the more often they hit them. That is the chilling finding of a study by Todd K. Shackelford, an associate professor of psychology at Florida Atlantic University, and five colleagues. They found that the more men do things to dissuade their partners from leaving them, the more likely they are to be violent. “Although many mate-retention behaviors appear to be innocuous romantic gestures (e.g., displaying resources, giving flowers), some may be harbingers of violence,” the authors write. The researchers surveyed 461 men, 560 women, and 107 couples about their use or experience of mate-retention behaviors and violence toward women. In each group, the researchers found greater violence in men who engaged in more of the retention behaviors. The authors also found that acts of vigilance — such as dropping by unexpectedly to see what partners were doing, and calling to make sure a partner was where she said she would be — were the clearest predictors of violence, followed by acts of emotional manipulation. Vigilant acts, they note, are examples of “autonomy-limiting behaviors” that are “motivated by male sexual proprietariness and designed to restrict women’s sexual autonomy.” Earlier research, they say, showed that 40 percent of women with highly vigilant partners also reported being seriously assaulted by their partners. Emotional manipulation included things such as ”He told her he would die if she ever left” and ”He pleaded that he could not live without her.” Another predictive factor was when a man tried to dominate all of a woman’s time: Monopolization of Time also was a highly ranked predictor of violence across the three studies. Example acts included in this tactic are ”He spent all his free time with her so that she could not meet anyone else” and ”He would not let her go out without him.” So, basically, if your boyfriend wants to monopolize your time, constantly checks up on you to know where you are, and says he’ll die without you – then maybe you should run. UPDATE: From the comments, Bean writes: As many of you reading this blog know, I work in a DV shelter. So, today I was with a woman and her 2 children, taking them on an errand. While we were out, her youngest son got angry. He started kicking, hitting, biting, scratching and yelling … all directed at his mom. I took him outside and had a talk with him about how it’s ok to be angry, but not ok to hurt people. Eventually, he calmed down and I asked him if he would apologize to his mom. He said ok, and ran over to the grass and picked some dandelions. He walked over to his mom and said he was sorry and handed her the flowers. Thinking about this thread, it took all of my will power not to start laughing right then and there.
i’ll have to show this to my wife so she understands why i should stop bringing her flowers (a whole 3 or 4 times a year).
“sorry honey, the more nice things i do for you, the more likely i am to bloody your nose.”
I wonder if this research indicates that there is a true predictive value to the “mate retention behaviors;” i.e. if the behaviors start before the violence does, so women could be on the lookout for such things as a warning of things to come. The wording of the quotes doesn’t clearly say if that is the case. Do you have a link to the full text of the study?
No, I don’t have a link other than the one I put in the post, but if you want I can email you the full study in pdf form. However, the study isn’t truly predictive. From the study text:
Great. So if I decide to start bringing my wife flowers more often, I can get tagged as a potential abuser?
So, either:
(1) Your boyfriend buys you flowers, says he doesn’t want you to leave, and wants to spend a lot of time with you, and then hits you. Or,
(2) Your boyfriend hits you, and then buys you flowers, says he doesn’t want you to leave, and wants to spend a lot of time with you.
They’re pretty different scenarios. (1) would be a real finding, (2) would be pretty much a statement of the bleeding obvious. If I knew someone who hit their girlfriend, apart from “don’t do it again”, my advice would be to apologise and try and make up for it.
“So, basically, if your boyfriend wants to monopolize your time, constantly checks up on you to know where you are, and says he’ll die without you – then maybe you should run.”
Or maybe you should dump him because he’s so emotionally dependant on you. But not an aggressor.
See, my problem with these statistics and tests and studies is that things that have always been considered to be an expression of love of a man for a woman (flowers, unexpected gifts, unexpected calls) are now “proof” that all he wants is to hit you in the face, baby.
For the record, I OBVIOUSLY know there are men who treat their women too well as just a means of keeping them around, out of jealousy or any other bad feeling. But I don’t like these tests which arouse paranoia. Two guys with THE SAME PATTERN may have two different purposes: one may be just terrible in love in an old-fashioned-German-romanticism sort of way and the other may be dangerous. Unfair to the former guy.
It is interesting that this spin was put on the study. “Men who hit their girlfriends feel bad about it” probably wasn’t an earth shaking enough finding.
It’s cute how they frame it as innocuous romantic gestures being a harbinger of violence, rather than violence being a harbinger of innocuous romantic gestures. I love the spin they put on everything. Dropping by unexpectedly to see your partner is an Act of Vigilance. Vocalising how important the relationship is to you is Emotional Manipulation. Wanting to be with someone is Monopolization of Time. And, yes, evolutionary psychologists are behind it all – trying once more to turning science on its head by attempting to confirm, rather than disprove, their theories.
If I knew someone who hit their girlfriend, apart from “don’t do it again”, my advice would be to apologise and try and make up for it.
Does this give anyone else the squickies?
Both of your posts, Nik, give me the feeling that you equate a man hitting his wife/girlfriend/partner with him forgetting her birthday or crashing her car.
I just don’t get it at all.
Nik, if you knew a man who hit his girlfriend, you would do what!? “Tell him to do it again”?! This sounds like you’re incorporating a presumption that it does not end the relationship, or that it should not do so. It also seems to incorporate a presumption that he is likely to actually not do it again. Why would you presume this? In your world, is it normal for men to hit women they are sexually involved with? Does that not normally end the relationship? Do you not either shun the man or insist that he get counseling?
Crap! I’ve been trying to get the hubby to buy more flowers…here’s a great excuse for him to keep not giving me flowers.
Hi Thomas!
You make an awful lot of presumptions and ask an awful lot of rhetorical questions. My point is that it you shouldn’t necessarily assume that gestures made by people who have hit their girlfriend are maliciously motivated. They could also be an expression of regret, concern and apology from someone who knows they’ve gone something awful. I was trying to suggest that particular behaviours could be motivated by a sense of shame – and I think you’re trying to read a lot into it.
For what it is worth, if something like that actually happened, I’d be very wary about getting involved. If it wasn’t very serious, she can probably take care of it herself, and if it was very serious it probably isn’t a good idea to get on the wrong side of him.
My point is that it you shouldn’t necessarily assume that gestures made by people who have hit their girlfriend are maliciously motivated.
Absolutely! Why would anyone assume that a person who hits their girlfriend might have any malicious intents?
If it wasn’t very serious, she can probably take care of it herself….
Very true. So many cases of domestic abuse aren’t serious at all: a few flowers, a nice note and all better.
Holy crap.
Most of the “I’ll just die if you leave” tactics, the checking up (and subsequent interrogation/nagging and retaliation if I wasn’t home when he called and/or didn’t feel like giving an in-depth explaination as to why I chose to go to a certain part of the city for a fucking outing), and the giving laminated cards more space than you tactic are all signs of an abuser because he’s trying to control you.
I dated someone who pulled all of this shit–and I was told I was a real bitch for leaving him. The gifts–those were to impress the people who knew us. They weren’t really for ME, and I wouldn’t want them if they were. THEY HAD STRINGS ATTACHED.
Why shouldn’t I have left him, even though I barely had any time to myself, he pushed for us to move in together after a few short weeks (unsuccessfully, might I add), and told me that he’d just die if I left. By the time I decided I had to get out, his dying meant fuck all to me. He knew it and drew his fist back. He didn’t hit me–I got ready to block him. (I’ve got very fast reflexes in a conflict.) So he stood between me and the door and tried to keep me from leaving. Held me down and only let go when I yelled bloody murder and said he was hurting me. He had nosy neighbors.
Maybe we could just tell him not to do it again. Maybe he’ll take that advice, but I doubt it very much. Had I stuck around, I’d either have found out what his fist felt like, or I’d be too afraid of his fist/general retaliation to do anything. No thanks. Sometimes telling someone not to do something again doesn’t fucking cut it.
This wasn’t a matter of a cool guy I was dating dropping by to see if I wanted to grab a bite to eat with him on my lunch break. It wasn’t a matter of him saying “I’m so glad I met you.” It wasn’t a matter of him buying me flowers just because he saw them in the market and knew I really like daffodils and picked them up.
Telling someone they’ll kill themselves, or that they’ll just die if they leave is nothing more than manipulation, period. It’s bullying, it’s making someone else responsible for your actions, and it’s bullshit. If he wanted me to stick around, emotionally blackmailing me wasn’t the way to do it. In fact, people stick around because they get something out of the relationship. If the only thing you’ve got is an obligation to keep a grown man from going nuclear, well, no thanks.
Getting pissy whenever your girlfriend spends time with her friends isn’t just a matter of wanting to spend more time with her. When you don’t give her any room–any room at all–to see anyone, and constantly throw it up in her face that you’re a real nice fucking guy because you “let” her see her friends two months ago or whatever is fucked up. PERIOD.
Calling someone to check up and see if they are where they said they’d be, and interrogating them if they aren’t isn’t loving or trusting behavior. Emotionally blackmailing them, monopolizing their time, and trying to control them isn’t loving. It’s ABUSIVE. And you don’t need to hit someone to be abusive. The abuse starts this way. Jeez.
Seriously. Anyone who thinks that shit is romantic needs to wear a flash orange dot on their foreheads so we can run as far and as fast from you as we can.
>>You make an awful lot of presumptions and ask an awful lot of rhetorical questions. My point is that it you shouldn’t necessarily assume that gestures made by people who have hit their girlfriend are maliciously motivated. They could also be an expression of regret, concern and apology from someone who knows they’ve gone something awful. I was trying to suggest that particular behaviours could be motivated by a sense of shame – and I think you’re trying to read a lot into it.>>
Yes, but all of those gestures–unless said abuser is an uncommon abuser and getting serious counselling–arise from the same controlling, abusive mindset. In other words, an abuser bringing flowers means something else by, and expects something else from, the gesture. Usually, those flowers mean that he’s interested in setting up the exact same dynamic as before, even if he isn’t admitting it. Abuse almost never happens once, and it almost never stays at the same level. It continues and it escalates. Generally speaking, the only thing a woman can do to stop it is get out. A man willing to hit his girlfriend is too far beyond the pale to be safe.
>>For what it is worth, if something like that actually happened, I’d be very wary about getting involved. If it wasn’t very serious, she can probably take care of it herself, and if it was very serious it probably isn’t a good idea to get on the wrong side of him. >>
The latter rationale is plain cowardice. “He could really kill her, but at least I can keep myself safe”? Fuck that.
The former rationale is exactly why women who are being abused can’t leave. They have no support, and the whole world seems to be taking the side of the abuser and saying that this is perfectly normal, perfectly fine. Abuse is profoundly damaging to the psyche–it’s an intimate violation of trust. Women in abusive relationships need people to interfere and offer them help. Otherwise, they won’t have the wherewithal to resist.
Sheelzebub,
I think we dated the same guy, but I think you figured it out faster than I did. Of course, it was my fault he cheated on me because I made him insecure. A Oh, and when I did finally break it off, what was his daughter going to say since she loved me so much. How was he going to tell her?
There is a big difference between someone who is emotionally manipulative and abusive- and some one who is genuinely caring.
Sam
Geez everyone – you post a couple of insensitive messages about domestic violence on a feminist website and everyone jumps on you!
More seriously. I think the data does permit multiple interpretations. I don’t think a few flowers makes up for breaking someones jaw, but I do think hitting someone you care about – particular given the seriousness with which domestic violence is regarded and the stigma associated with being a wifebeater – could precipitate a crisis which leads someone to re-evaluate their actions and how much they value the relationship.
Why didn’t they even consider the “violence may be a harbinger of innocuous romantic gestures” interpretation? It’s as compatible with the data as claiming “innocuous romantic gestures may be harbingers of violence”.
You know, this is actually both false and a pretty fucking shitty thing to say.
It certainly CAN be a manipulative attempt to control your partner, and I’m absolutely not denying that for a moment, but it can also be an honest expression of a deep hopelessness and depression. The myth that marginalizes honestly suicidal people (WHO NEED PSYCHOLOGICAL HELP) as “just manipulative” is one of the many things that contributes to suicide.
It’s blaming the victim, it’s selfish, it’s self ingulgent, and it pisses me off. Too many people have this perception that people with clinical depression are “just whining” or “just want attention” or “drama queens” or “manipulative,” and so much of it has the same tone that’s used to dismiss victims of sexual harassment as “humorless” or “too touchy” or “bitchy,” and goddammit, there are people who are really suicidal, and this is a way to look at that and say “Feh, not really a problem.”
And, no, I’m not saying that you ought to stay for god’s sake. You needed to do what was right for you, and did, and that’s a good thing, and, considering his other actions, almost certainly this guy WAS being manipulative. You’d be in a much better position to know than I. Even if he had been 100% serious, it’s not anyone’s job to trash their lives for the sake of someone else’s. What I’m saying is that it’s the blanket statement I object to, not your specifics.
I treat talk of suicide the same way I treat talk of rape. Unless I have a really good reason to think otherwise, I assume the person talking to me is dead level honest and serious.
—Myca
>>More seriously. I think the data does permit multiple interpretations. I don’t think a few flowers makes up for breaking someones jaw, but I do think hitting someone you care about – particular given the seriousness with which domestic violence is regarded and the stigma associated with being a wifebeater – could precipitate a crisis which leads someone to re-evaluate their actions and how much they value the relationship.>>
In a few select cases, most likely. However, the data on abusers does not support that outcome for the overwhelming majority of abusive relationships. The professional line is get the fuck out right now, because this shit does not stop. And it doesn’t. Contrary to popular belief, many abusers are not constantly abusive. It goes like this: abusive behavior, apologies, gifts (the “honeymoon” phase), abusive behavior, apologies, gifts…. Each time, the abuse is more severe and the honeymood period shorter, until the woman is so terrified and traumatized that she cannot leave. Abuse is almost never a one-time thing.
Switching back and forth from charming to violent is a really effective manipulation tactic. Abusers will continue to do it if it works, nevermind if they’re doing it consciously. It convinces the victim that she can somehow make the abuser be nice and keep him that way. It convinces her that the incidents were isolated rather than part of a cruel pattern. It increases the intimacy between abuser and abused such that she has even less psychological distance and privacy.
>>Why didn’t they even consider the “violence may be a harbinger of innocuous romantic gestures” interpretation? It’s as compatible with the data as claiming “innocuous romantic gestures may be harbingers of violence”. >>
Because people who work with abuse victims know that this kind of behavior frequently is a precursor either to intial or to repeated abuse.
That quote about dying or suicide was chilling. It was nearly an exact quote from what my ex used to say to me, especially towards the end of our relationship. That, and conspicuously avoiding getting a job or gaining skills that would allow her to survive if it weren’s for my support.
Yes, it’s manipulation, and yes, it’s bullying. But when you’re caught in that cycle of abuse, it’s hard to see the way out. Thankfully, she stopped short of physical abuse, as if emotional, verbal, financial and sexual wasn’t enough.
From everything I’ve read (I have, thank heaven, no direct experience) everything that’s been said about the escalating pattern of abuse-honeymoon-abuse is absolutely true. The abuser may be genuinely sorry right after the abuse, but that doesn’t mean it won’t happen again.
It may be possible for someone to wise up after an isolated incident of abuse; I think it’s definitely possible for abuse and/or mental illness to be triggered by a traumatic event.
If my husband ever hit me I would be moving heaven and earth to find out what was wrong and to get him help. Before you all jump all over me: we have been together for 27 years, and he has never hit me, not once, nor has he ever displayed any controlling behavior. (He has, however, brought me flowers now and then.) So in his case hitting would be so strange that I would know something was big-time wrong.
Agreed, agreed, agreed completely. I mean, this is why I said that it’s nobody’s job to trash their life for someone else, and that Sheelzebub was right to leave. Nobody should ever put up with abuse, period.
The thing is, this hits one of my hot buttons and hits it hard, because the unfortunate facts are that it’s NOT just “abusive partners threatening suicide in order to attempt to force their partners into staying” that get dismissed as manipulative and bullying . . . it’s teenage kids whose parents or peers find it easy to dismiss actual warning signs as ‘acting out’ or ‘seeking attention’ . . . it’s wives whose husbands hear “I’ve been thinking about killing myself” as just more nagging and a way to keep them from “going out with the guys” for poker night . . . it’s part of the standard line of insults and fucking attacks that gets thrown at anyone who’s ever revealed their suicidal ideation to a less than sympathetic audience.
If this was JUST something that was said when we were discussing threats of suicide in an abusive relationship, that would be one thing, but somehow, it seems to come up pretty often, and somehow the people who sling this insult always seem to say that this time it’s different. “Oh, Billy’s just talking like that to try to force us to uproot our entire lives and move him to another school. He’s just manipulative,” can translate pretty easily to “Billy’s being terrorized and bullied every single day of his life, can’t take it anymore, and doesn’t know what to do.”
Of course, we should toss in the fear of being labeled crazy or institutionalized that can also make sure that many suicidal folks never get the help they need. I swear, guys, I’ve actually been told “If I decide to kill myself, I’m just going to do it. I don’t want to talk to anyone about it, because I’m scared of how they’ll react.”
Is telling a partner “I’ll kill myself/I’ll just die if you go” always emotional manipulation and bullying? No, not necessarily. In the presence of a history of abuse? Hell yes. It’s just one more way for the abuser to exert control (which doesn’t mean that they’re not serious . . . seeking help is still good). But Sheelzebub’s original statement made no such caveats, which is why I’ve reacted as strongly as I have.
Her statement was:
Really?
How about the happily married woman, a stay-at-home mom, whose parents died 6 months back? She’s been married for 15 years, and has two kids, both under the age of ten. She’s got no history of abuse in her marriage, but her folks deaths hit her hard, so she’s been very depressed and emotionally distant, and feels overwhelmed by the day to day stress of taking care of the apartment and kids. Her husband has been unable to cope with these changes in her and doesn’t know how to fix it, and as a result he’s really starting to resent her. Recently he’s started secretly seeing a woman he works with.
Finally, one day, it all boils over, and he tells his wife about the affair. What’s more, he tells her that he’s leaving her, and he’s taking the kids. Between her lack of a job and her recent depression, she figures he’ll probably get custody, and, right or wrong, she doesn’t even know how to begin to fight it.
Okay, so in the space of 6 months, this woman has lost (or believes she is about to lose) her parents, her husband, her children, her home, and the future she and her husband had planned out together. She doesn’t see anything good left in her life. She has no idea where to turn (although she realizes that she could probably sleep on friends’ couches for a little while), what to do, or how she could ever possibly make her life one she wants to live again. Keep in mind, it’s not that she’s some ‘pathetic weakling’ or somesuch . . . she’s clinically depressed. When you’re clinically depressed, sometimes making coffee is too much to cope with. Unable to think of anything else, and sobbing, she says to her husband, “If you leave, I’ll die,” or “if you leave, I’ll have nothing left to live for.”
———–
Okay, take a break to evaluate.
Is that manipulative? Yes, in the sense that she doesn’t want him to leave, and is trying to affect that end, she’s being manipulative. I do, however, try to be very cautious about using that term in a way that implies concious ‘plotting.’ In this case, it seems more like wild flailing about for anything to stop the pain, rather than “well, here’s how I can reel this sucker back in.”
Is it “nothing more than manipulation, period?” I don’t find it to be so. It sure seems to me like there’s a hell of a lot there other than the manipulation. There’s fear, there’s despair, there’s depression, there’s her honest (in-the-moment) evaluation of her life. She believes, solidly, that if he leaves, she will have nothing left to live for. She believes this because she’s depressed and despairing, not because it’s true, but that doesn’t really matter.
Is it bullying? Maybe, but I don’t see it. It’s certainly less bullying than what she’s getting.
Is it making someone else responsible for her actions? Kinda. I can go either way on this. Saying “if you leave, I’ll kill myself” is, but saying “if you leave I’ll having nothing left to live for,” it seems to me, isn’t. Despite the fact that they’re both pretty much expressing the same thing. So I dunno.
Is it bullshit? No, she’s 100% serious.
Evaluation over.
———–
Luckily, in this case, when she says that, her husband sees how freaked out she is and agrees to enter marriage counseling with her. Although their finances are tight, they also get her therapy for her depression. In time, she’s able to live a happy, fulfilling life again. Boy, thank goodness he didn’t just dismiss her as a manipulative bully . . . or, what’s more likely, use her talk of suicide as a way to show she’s an unfit mother and take the kids away from her.
That would have been awful.
—Myca
I see what you’re trying to say Myca. When my ex announced that he didn’t want to work out the problems in our relationship, I told him a whole bunch of stuff about how my life would be completely over if he walked away, because I sincerely believed that. (16 months later, I haven’t fully managed to put things back together.) It was just like you said, accidental manipulation, a desperate attempt to find something, anything that would make him pause and reconsider because I was so devastated.
The difference was that I don’t believe I was abusive (just as the woman in your hypothetical wasn’t). If there are other forms of abuse going on, threats like that get more scrutiny than if they happen in a fairly equal dynamic.
Myca, I see where you’re going with this, but I think you’re missing out on context.
Obviously context is very important, as we can see from your story, and what we’re talking about here is an entirely different context. It’s a context where the person’s life *hasn’t* just fallen apart. It’s a context where there’s no major change except that the woman he’s been abusing has just said that she can’t take it anymore and he’s realising that he may not get to hold on to her anymore and that’s entirely different from your example.
No, no, I totally agreee with both of you guys on this. Context is important, and that’s actually my point. That’s why the blanket statement bothered me so much. That and that I’ve heard the same statement used out of context so much.
Think of it like the “how not to be raped” threads. Do you think so many people would react as stongly as they have to that if it weren’t for the long and vile history of blaming rape victims for rape in contexts that aren’t even disguised as ‘friendly advice’?
—Myca
While I think the study is interesting, I think it has the potential to be misinterpreted, or used to make poor conclusions.
As the saying goes, 3 kinds of lies: lies, damned lies, and statistics.
I think beans comments on perceptions of romance and assumption of gender roles being tied together is interesting and I’d like to soapbox further.
I think it is possible to have traditional gender roles assumed and played out without them nessecarily being abusive. If assumption of traditional gender roles was the cause of abuse, then wouldn’t all women of 100, 200, 1000 years ago have been beaten daily? What stopped spousal abuse back then?
My personal theory is that abuse is entirely about power dynamics, and people’s need for power over others/de-humanizing the people they have power over. I think it would be interesting to look at how gender roles, societal expectations and social responsibility have contributed to the issue of intimate abuse over the years.
How has domestic abuse changed in 100 years? Does society condone it more or less than it did then? Do people feel more or less responsibility for their community now as compared to then? I use social responsibility because I believe it to be an indicator of empathy for others, one of the key things abusers lack (IMO).
Eventually, he calmed down and I asked him if he would apologize to his mom. He said ok, and ran over to the grass and picked some dandelions. He walked over to his mom and said he was sorry and handed her the flowers.Thinking about this thread, it took all of my will power not to start laughing right then and there.
I am confused. Is this a sad story because a young boy has picked up on the cues that gifts make up for bad/abusive behavior? Or a cute story because a boy brought his mom flowers?
I’ll let Bean field that one, but my guess would be it’s too soon to tell.
I’ll vote for it being sad.
Those same guestures from my ex husband threw up all sorts of red flags that I ignored or dismissed because I loved him. He never physically abused me because the one time he attempted to push me I put him on his ass (thanks Mom for the cast iron skillet and the advice to use it) No, what he did was to feel obligated to “protect” me from other people. This extended to the hair salon and work, because as he said many times “I trust you, but I don’t trust them.”
All of that to say that when I met my current husband (wonderful, wonderful man) and he gave me flowers, left notes, or gave gifts I waited for him to ask for something in return. He never did ask for anything from me but my friendship and love. I give those to him because he gives them to me.
The first and largest indicatior of potential abuse in a relationship is “unwarranted and exaggerated jealousy”. That is the one common thread that I hear running through all stories of domestic and intimate violence. And I’m teaching my daughters to run from any man that is overly jealous of them in any relationship.
Myca,
When my ex was threatening to kill himself if I didn’t get back with him a few years back, I did the responsible thing for both of us: I stayed the hell away from him, called the police to report his suicidal behavior so he’d get some psychological help, and cut off all contact afterwards. He’d been emotionally manipulative and increasingly emotionally abusive for a few months at that point and had recently come very close to hitting me. I was pretty sure his suicide threat was a last-ditch effort to regain my allegiance, but I kept him on the phone until the police got there, just in case he was serious. And to show him that I was serious, too.
For the record, he never got me flowers, rarely gave gifts, rarely said thank you for gifts bestowed on him by others. He hadn’t been restrictive of who I saw or when. He just had no respect for me as I was, questioning my choices in food, belittling my US-average size, and taking credit for my internal advancements out of my parents’ mindset for himself. I had been convinced by my experiences growing up that it was normal for people to only care about what I could do for them with little regard for what they could do for me, that it didn’t matter if my partner had respect for who I was. It’s taken a lot of counseling to help me better see and get out of these patterns. Without the support of the people around me (which largely wasn’t offered until I had ended the relationship!) I wouldn’t have had the strength to keep saying no, especially after he started stalking me. For the record, my parents didn’t like him, but didn’t say anything because they thought I “should make my own mistakes.”
I guess this boils down to the usual societal problems: 1) women are not taught to value themselves, 2) people outside the relationship, even close friends and relatives, are unlikely to involve themselves in a situation, even if it seems abusive, and 3) abusers come in all sorts, but it all ultimately comes down to control over another person, be it be self-image, associations, work arrangement, children, etc. AND 4) abusers (like many rapists) are frequently convinced their behavior is OK, by the silence of the abused and of those around them.
Um, didja miss the rest of my post much? As Jakobpundit pointed out, context is key, and had you bothered to read all of my post, you’d see the context was there and it wasn’t a blanket statement. You’re cherry-picking and completely ignoring every other goddamn thing I wrote.
And Myca, you’re barking up the wrong tree about depression. I’ve been there (but crying was manipulative no matter what, as was not generally being happy). I’ve been suicidal, I’ve been depresseed, I’ve been through it. He wasn’t. Thing is, everything was just fine with the ex as long as he got his way. When I told him he wasn’t happy, he said he’d die if I left, like that was the reason I should stick around. Fuck my mental health. Then again, I was just a bitch, why should I count for anything? So I was a callous bitch for leaving him according to my so-called friends–after all, he called them and told them how much he loved me, so I shouldn’t have left him, no matter how miserable I was. And I was making too much out of it when it was obvious that he was just troubled. And for someone who says that I was abseloutely right to get out, you sure were eager to cherry pick one short quote that was part of a larger whole and extropolate it into a point I never made.
Let’s not forget mollification, either, as a classic of manipulative behavior. My ex-wife always bought me a gift whenever she made a risky move in her (former) business; anything but get a job. I left her after she insisted I get a second job to make a dent in the five-figure debt we owed the IRS. Naturally, it was my fault: I apparently couldn’t handle the obligation of supporting, unconditionally, a woman who had the all-important mission of creating cutting-edge product logos.
Nik: Regarding post #9. I don’t get the reference to evolutionary psychology. Could I trouble you for an explanation?
No, I’m really not. What you made was a offensive (and extremely common) blanket statement, within the context of a larger post that contained specifics about your situation. Think of it this way . . . some dude shows up on these boards and posts a story about how his ex-girlfriend falsely accused him of rape, and he lost his job and had to move to another town, etc . . . and in the middle of it, he posts “Accusing a man of rape and getting him fired is nothing less than abusive, period.”
Please don’t pretend that you wouldn’t be one of the people posting, “unless, of course, the man is actually GUILTY of rape, right?” Of course you’d post that, and you’d be right to. His statement means one thing with the word “falsely” in it and another thing with it absent, and there are enough men who like to pretend that accusing a man of rape is worse than the rape itself that blanket statements like that are really quite offensive.
Context is important, yes, but a blanket statement is a blanket statement, and I’m used to hearing the one you used in quite a few contexts that have little to do with abuse and everything to do with demonizing the suicidal.
I have no idea what this means. I never claimed that your abusive ex suffered from depression, so I don’t need to be convinced that he didn’t.
I posted in my very first post that considering his other actions towards you, he almost certainly was being manipulative and that you’d be in a much better position than I to know and that you were right to get out. What I did NOT post was “Boy, Sheelzebub, in that relationship you were sure way too mean to that nice guy you used to date who was depressed but was clearly not at all abusive,” so don’t pretend that that’s what I did post.
I mean, Jeez, you accuse me of not reading the full post?
Look, if you didn’t mean your blanket statement to be read as such, that’s cool, I’ve got no problem reading it the way you intended. As I said, though, I’m oversensitive to this because every time someone uses this slur and is confronted on it, they always follow up with “well, I mean, that’s not what I really meant.”
—Myca
I certainly got what you were saying Myca – though I think that Sheezlebub meant the blanket more specifically than it came out in text.
You are absolutely right about the level of demonization of suicide/depression. When the quote of “I’m just going to do it…” was posted, it was a little freaky since it’s almost an exact quote of something I said (Long ago…don’t worry). My fears of being stigmatized as manipulative, or weird, or any of the other possibilities were so strong that I was absolutely determined I was never, ever going to be a suicide attemptor. It was either going to be yea or nay. (“Do or do not do, there is no try.” /Yoda channeling)
Fortunately the answer turned out to be nay. Unfortunately that same fear kept me in hell for over ten years before I took the simple expedient of admitting my feelings to a doctor and getting a prescription for antibiotics.
Manipulation is the key to look for in an abusive or potentially abusive relationship. There are all kinds of ways to do it, but flowers/gifts are a popular one because they’re so societally approved. Not only do they help manipulate the target, but they make the abuser look good to any observers as a side bonus.
As a strange side-note, my husband hits me regularly, and has even given me a black eye once or twice, but is definitely NOT abusive. We’re both in a very rough and tumble karate class. I give him bruises right back. One day at work (with a black eye), I had a client give me a business card with the number of the local shelter on the back. Very sweet, and yet funny.
OK – I should go to bed now, and not try to write coherently, what I meant was obviously antidepressants, not antibiotics, which would do too damn much about suicide ideation. Sorry
Context is important, yes, but a blanket statement is a blanket statement, and I’m used to hearing the one you used in quite a few contexts that have little to do with abuse and everything to do with demonizing the suicidal.
Myca, I could have said it better, and I apologize for that. While depression may be your hot button (and as I’ve said, I’ve been through it), hearing people dismiss what I’ve gone through as so much hysteria is mine, which is how some posters were coming off before I wrote my post. And when I read posts that basically go off on how nice it is that someone buys you presents and cares about the relationship and wants to be with you, and you women sure are paranoid (not to mention the silencing and shaming techniques by my abuser and his allies), it set me off, hence my original post.
I have no idea what this means. I never claimed that your abusive ex suffered from depression, so I don’t need to be convinced that he didn’t.
My next sentence was: “I’ve been there (but crying was manipulative no matter what, as was not generally being happy). I’ve been suicidal, I’ve been depressed, I’ve been through it.” IOW, I don’t need someone to tell me what it’s like.
I posted in my very first post that considering his other actions towards you, he almost certainly was being manipulative and that you’d be in a much better position than I to know and that you were right to get out. What I did NOT post was “Boy, Sheelzebub, in that relationship you were sure way too mean to that nice guy you used to date who was depressed but was clearly not at all abusive,” so don’t pretend that that’s what I did post.
Don’t pretend that’s what I said. Here’s what I actually said:
I was talking about my experience during/after the abuse–not you. Not until the last line, when I acknowledged that you said I was right to leave but told you I thought you took one quote out of context. Nowhere did I say that you dismissed my abuse or tell me that I should have stayed, or that I was a mean bitch for leaving him, so don’t pretend that’s what I said. I was talking about what I was going through at the time, the isolation, and my reaction of my so-called friends.
I mean, Jeez, you accuse me of not reading the full post?
Well, that assertion still stands.
I don’t have much to add to this thread; if you are in a relationship and you get abused, you find a way to stop the abuse in whatever way you think will work out best for you – although I’d suggest that you do that well before you start to seriously consider putting a bullet in your abuser. No one has a right to abuse you, and no one has a good reason to abuse you.
I have a question; what’s “DV”? Did I miss that somewhere? I didn’t read all the posts in detail.
DV stands for Domestic Violence
DV is domestic violence, I believe, Ron.
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Tapetum:
antibiotics?
I would like to receive flowers, have a partner who wanted to spend time with me, and was committed to the relationship. I’d also like a partner who called me more than once in a blue moon, especially when I’m working night shift. Just to make sure I made it home okay. Someone who would check in to see if I arrived home safely after a jog.
Did you know there is a form of abuse that goes like this:
* he doesn’t give you any gifts
* he spends very little time with you
* he is not committed to the relationship
* never calls to see if you’re okay
Ok, so abuse has to do with intent when it comes to behaviour. Behaviour itself outside of context means very little.
What form of abuse is the kind that fits the above criteria, Dotty, because odds are, that ain’t all of it: in a relationship between two adults, it couldn’t be.