Many discussions on Alas have boiled down to the idea that much would be solved if people would just begin to trust women. Trust in their intentions, trust in their motivations and trust in their decisions. The simple phrase ‘trust women’ has been introduced in conversations about rape and abortion consistently here, and even highlighted in one of Maia’s stories as she reminisced about a banner that was in her high-school that really spoke to her. It’s this phrase that resonated with me when I came across a story via my parenting group that launched the blog of Chris Musser, who has dubbed herself the ‘reluctant lactivist’.
So yeah, I’m going to launch into another one of my rants about the importance of supporting mothers in their decisions to breastfeed their children. Here goes.
Reluctant was out a few weeks ago at Gateway Freddie’s (Fred Meyers) shopping, when much to her inconvenience, her wee one of three months decided he was hungry. They do that to you, and they don’t do it on your preferred schedule, but their own ““ fancy that. Having to maneuver herself, her three month old and her three year old daughter, she looked around for a safe and contained place to nurse her son so she could get on with her shopping. She chose a bench near the check-out. And guess what happened then ““ you’d be right if you said rude people happened, but it wasn’t enough that customers wanted to be asshats, management decided to get a piece of the action too.
On April 4th I sat down on a bench at the Gateway Fred Meyer to nurse my two-month-old son. It was about five o’clock on a busy Tuesday afternoon. The last place I wanted to be nursing was in that spot as it was noisy and distracting, but at the time, I couldn’t think of better place to attend to my baby’s needs. I also had my rather flighty three-year-old daughter with me, so wandering around the store to find a quieter spot would’ve left me instead chasing a toddler while carrying a bawling baby. […]
After nursing for five minutes or so, my son seemed comfortable enough for us to start shopping. As I reached into my bag to get my sling, Troy Hardig, Gateway Store Director, approached me. He had a weird look on his face and as I was trying to figure out why he was approaching me when he opens with, “Oh, good. You’re getting a blanket.” He told me there had been complaints about my nursing, not that he minded, but that some people were offended. I was so stunned I couldn’t think of what to say, except to remind him that Oregon law protects a mother’s right to nurse in public. I felt absolutely humiliated. His comments left me feeling like I’d been doing something lewd.
Reluctant spent a few days feeling mortified before letting her very righteous anger replace the hurt, and she contacted one of the regional operations managers, and here’s what he had to say:
Unbelievably, when I spoke with Todd Heinle, Fred Meyers East Portland/SW Wash Operations Supervisor, a couple days later about the incident, he supported the store manager’s claim that I should have been more “discreet” and that three people had complained.
Now, my heart went out to Reluctant, but I also became severely pissed off when I read this. While it isn’t the closest or primary shopping place for our family, it is right smack dab in front of our doctor’s office so we do in fact go there. Well, did go there prior to this anyways (though I admit, Maddox has an appointment on Wednesday afternoon, and I’m ever so tempted to drop in and nurse her on that damn bench as an act of solidarity and support for Reluctant).
The story got the attention of KATU news, which did a good job of supporting nursing women by interviewing Reluctant while she nursed her son. And while Fred Meyer has at least offered a lame ‘oops, that shouldn’t have happened’, they get no cookie from this breastfeeding mother until they decisively make it clear to the public and to their employees that nursing mothers are not only welcome, but to be treated with respect and dignity. Reluctant has made a blog entry for people who want to offer support to her and other breastfeeding women by speaking out to Fred Meyer.
Following the links around, my favorite comments were from a woman named Marrit Ingram, who offered this:
American people want their lives to be totally antiseptic. We want to float around all day long in our individual bubbles of privacy and personal comfort. The world is our living room, and we want everyone on their company manners. If you don’t like mothers and babies, then by all means they should be expected to hide from you and not offend. It’s their problem, not yours. What’s a three-month-old doing in a store anyway? Aren’t you supposed to be on house arrest? Don’t you know that children annoy all the Real People who have a right to assembly? You might inconvenience someone.
These are strange times. Women are losing our reproductive rights, but we’re expected to raise children entirely in private without burdening anyone.
This got longer than I intended, but I’ll close with a customization of the rant I opened with, even though I know I’m mostly preaching to the converted:
Trust women that breastfeed to know when their child needs to be fed. Trust women to not be breastfeeding their child out of a malicious need to cause others discomfort, but rather solely for the nourishment and well-being of her child. Trust women when they decide the best place for the child to be fed when needing to nurse them in a public area. Trust women.
And beyond that, give ’em a fucking break already.
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And while you’re at it, you can always avert your eyes if it really offends you. Do people really think they can just banish everyone whose manners and appearance don’t appeal to them? I remember sitting in a food pit in a mall and noticing a mentally incapacitated adult eating with his dad and being a little repulsed by his manners. It never occurred to me that he shouldn’t be there, but it did occur to me that I could direct my attention somewhere else. Twenty or more years ago it would not have been surprising for the patrons to complain and the management to ask him or other disabled people to go elsewhere. That doesn’t happen now, and that’s progress, and I hope nursing moms can make the same progress.
(((Kim))) Thanks for the outraged post! I haven’t been able to get quite as philosophical about this whole mess yet and I appreciate you articulating the key point folks should come away with when they hear my story: Trust women, trust mothers! Geezus, I cannot believe all the bad intentions other people have come up with for me…I was trying to expose myself, trying to build a case for a law suit, trying to “make a point.” I was trying to feed my baby the best food on the planet, that’s all!
Well it goes back to the idea that Breasts are Sexual! And that’s all they are. That’s all we are. And if they are used for nursing or mommying it’s gross because Sex is hidden and you are reminding us that part of women are more than a sexual item.
I had a male friend of mine tell me that he wouldn’t want to see his children actually born because he’s grossed out by blood and he doens’t think he wants to see it like that cause it would make sex all weird.
I had no reply. I didn’t know how to explain how devalued I felt by the satement and why. That once again I felt like women were just objects in the male thought process and fact that our bodies give life is a disgusting thing as opposed to as amazing and sexy as well.
My problem is with the babies themselves. Oooh, I need food now because I’m only three months old. They need to learn to suck it in, then get a job!!!
Good post tho Kim. People are insane. Breastfeeding isn’t offensive. What’s offensive is idiots.
Side note: about 8 years ago in Flagstaff, there was an exhibit at the museum of a Navajo painter Carlos Begay. An elementary school was taken there for a field trip, and one of the mothers pulled her daughter from the school completely because one of the paintings was of a woman breast feeding a baby. Which apparently is pornographic. Somehow.
Interesting post. Beyond the issue of breast feeding, I’d say mothers should be trusted more overall.
My sister is currently in a catastrophic struggle for the custody of her two daughters. Her ex-husband is related to local judges and police officers and is a lifelong friend of the local DA in their small Tennessee town.
Even though there has been extensive abuse and neglect on the father’s part, my sister has been unable to have his custody rights reviewed. The 4-year old lost nearly half of her body weight last summer due to not being fed. She was locked in a bedroom for several days at a time while the adults in the house partied, watched TV, left the home, etc.
Now significant evidence (including admissions) of sexual abuse have come to light. My 12 year old niece has an STD, etc.
My sister took her children to Texas at the end of last summer and refused to return them. The Tennessee DA continues to pursue felony kidnapping charges against her and it seems that no one is willing to listen to an angry mom.
I have been detailing events on my blog. We are at a loss for what to do and could use any constructive comments from anyone.
http://spannerkit.blogspot.com/
I’m all for allowing breastfeeding in public and put the needs of a crying baby over just about anyone else.
However, if the gal has access to a blanket so the public doesn’t have to see a bare breast, I’m all for allowing people to ask her to cover up.
azballfan, most women who can cover up do so. But not all babies are willing to feed with a blanket on their head, and it does take some maneuvering to make sure baby is feeding okay. This is why it’s important to trust mothers! They really do know what they’re doing and what their babies’ needs are.
azbballfan-
Again, trust women. My first son was still nursing at five years, and my 18 month old is still nursing, and observing my wife convinces me that the mother will cover up as soon as she gets a damn chance. Walking over and asking her to please cover up will not speed the process one iota.
azballfan needs to cover up his inability to control his sexual urges if he can’t stand to see a woman’s bare breast while feeding her baby.
now i’m a guy who gets turned on by breasts as much as the next guy, but when my wife was in the act of breastfeeding, there wasn’t even a stirring of anything but love for her and my daughters. now when she wasn’t, well, that’s another story :)
and now, if i see a woman breastfeeding, covered or uncovered, all i can think of is ‘there’s a really loving mother.’ and then there is no discconect for me at all if i see her in another aisle clothed and pushing a basket with the kid in it and thinking, ‘wow, she’s hot’ or whatever.
my point is, there is nothing sexual about brestfeeding. it’s nurturing a child not titillation for some man’s libido.
and for the old strawman of ‘what will we say to our kids if they see that?’–well you tell them the truth, “she’s feeding her baby”, and then move along. make a fuss about it and the kid’s sure to pay it more attention than s/he should.
give moms a break.
Good points Barbara and Decnavda.
Immediately after I clicked the “Submit Comment” button I realized that the appropriate thing for someone in the store manager’s role would be to approach the lady breastfeeding and ask her is there is anything he could do to help her feel more comfortable. He could offer a blanket if she likes as a polite way of telling her that there are people uncomfortable with bare breasted feeding.
It’s a difficult situation. I know my sister with her 3 month old wouldn’t appreciate being approached because she’s very sensitive about breastfeeding but needs to do it – on the other hand I have a good friend who would just laugh it off. She has a great philosophy – the world would be a much better place if we did a better job of promoting more petting and more laughter.
I also note other posters comments which equate discomfort about seeing bare breasted feeding with reinforcing norms which treat women as sex objects. Here I agree and point to more progressive cultures such as Europe where baring breasts is not considered overtly sexual.
Really? This adult lacked strength of the mind? Was he legally ineligible and is he disqualified from being treated as a real live human being?
How’s about the term “person/man/woman with a mental disability” which tends to be more inclusive and less, um, broken sounding?
As for the breastfeeding, I’m all for mom’s doing it wherever and whenever they need to and I don’t care if they cover up. I tend to avert my eyes simply because I view it as a private matter. I couldn’t do the breastfeeding thing because the marriage I thought was decent crumbled and between all that stress and the stress of a screaming infant I just couldn’t handle it. I did last that first month though, :).
Even if we assume that women always know what’s best for themselves and their babies (obviously false, but still a reasonable approximation), that doesn’t mean that they know how to balance their own interests with the diverse interests of others with whom they interact. For that, it’s best to trust the property owners, who ultimately are the only ones who have any legitimate authority to set policies about things like this.
I don’t have any objection to women nursing in public, but I also suspect that anyone who gets outraged over the fact that she was politely asked to do so more discreetly is someone who has a great fondness for getting outraged.
the irony, of course, is that there’s more and more pressure to breastfeed now that its health benefits are becoming clearer. i think it’s typical to put women in that situation: “you have to do X because it’s good for your kids, but we’re going to make it hard to do X” where X is breastfeeding, staying home, providing piano lessons, whatever.
i’ve heard about adoptive parents being berated in public for not breastfeeding (as if they had that option). damned if you do, damned if you don’t. the very core of american sexism.
In my province, women can walk around topless thanks to the efforts of Gwen Jacobs. (Jealous much?) That’s lucky for me because my little Bee is the most annoying breastfeeder of the century. She just sips at one breast, then moves to the other, back and forth, back and forth for a good 10 minutes. This can’t be done very discretely much as I try! I’ve breastfed publicly for 8 years (all kids totalled), and not one person has ever said anything to me about it. (Even the 4-year-old opening my shirt in the grocery store.)
Monte Abbott, I have no suggestions for you, but I sure do feel for you. Stay strong!
a nut, you know, I struggled with how to convey this in the least pejorative terms I could think of. I didn’t know his diagnosis, I think he might have had Down’s Syndrome and I didn’t want to say mentally retarded or disabled. I confess that I really don’t know what term conveys the least amount of prejudice. It did seem to me that he had the functional ability of a three or four year old when it came to table manners and I guessed that, in terms of IQ, he was probably what would be called moderately retarded. So I’m sorry if I offended.
Here here!
And I can’t think of anything ruder than somebody coming up to a nursing mother to tell/ask/hint about covering up while nursing. I don’t really care how politely you think you could do it, “Can I perhaps get you a blanket, ma’am?” still gets across the same message of discomfort and distaste for the act of breastfeeding. Just look away, it’s free, easy and less uncomfortable for everyone.
I’m afraid I don’t buy into the idea that a grocery store is a private place and somehow not subject to state laws. If they had other discriminatory policies (women must wear full burquas in the store, people of colour may only use one checkout and not the others, or must allow whites to cut in front of them in line) there wouldn’t be anybody (such as Brandon) saying:
Oh, I wouldn’t put it past the property-worshippers to stand up for the right of Fred’s to force its female employees into burqas. After all, we now have U.S. courts sustaining the rights of companies to fire female employees who refuse to wear makeup to work. Burqas, exposed breasts, exposed skin sans chemical alterations– it’s all of one piece: Being female is inherently dirty and vulgar. Worship the valiant property owner for his/her justified demand for public purity and cleanliness !! Save the dirty, mentally feeble womanfolks from themselves !!!
Bah.
Interesting that, because for me, anyone who makes such a stunningly accusatory comment comes off to me as someone who epitomizes the idea of self-entitlement and disregard for women in general. As much as you might like to think it’s all about you or any other asshat that is walking by and inserting themself into the equation of a mother nursing her child as a participant, it simply isn’t about you.
Let me put it in even more simple terms: The act of breastfeeding is neither discreet, nor indiscreet. It is nourishment for a child. The breast is a tool for the child. Mama is thinking about baby, not some man that is walking by getting in a tizzy that she would dare remind him that breasts are not for his incidental pleasure and sexual fantasizing.
But– but– PROPERTY, Kim !! You have failed to show proper deference to the almighty PROPERTY !!!
Tsk. Why are you always so angry ? It’s no wonder that the holy, important royal Fred’s clan and their sacred PROPERTY don’t want to be nice to you !!!
There are times when I could breastfeed discreetly, and there were times that I could not. In my own house, I fed barebreasted in which ever room, chair, etc that was most accessible and comfortable.
The only place that I ever made a concerted effort to feed very discreetly was in church, but that was less for fear of offending someone and more for fear of the baby disrupting the service. Therefore, I spent most of those Sundays in the “cry room” or the nursery.
Breasts are first and foremost the means of feeding a child, they are everything else incidentally. Only once during the three years (collective time for three children) did I ever have anyone walk up and say anything to me about breastfeeding. That was in an open air restraunt in July, and the manager asked if I could cover up with a blanket as opposed to the burp cloth that I was using. Yeesh. Needless to say I don’t do business there and neither do many of my friends and family.
In my experience the people who want to be offended by breastfeeding, will be offended by breastfeeding, no matter where or how you do it – unless perhaps you’re under a blanket, in a locked closet, in your own house. The majority of people are fine with public breastfeeding, but I’ve been glared at for feeding in the sitting area of a public restroom (by a woman escorting her nine-year old son), for not covering up with a blanket outdoors on a 106 degree day, and for feeding completely discretely while playing a board game at a private convention. Nobody knew I was feeding my kid until another mother wandered by and made a comment – whereupon it was suddenly a problem for someone.
My best bf story is from a church service. When #2 son was hungry, I wandered back to the crying room. This was a church I was visiting, and someplace I hadn’t been before. Nobody was there, so I wandered in, sat down, and started to feed my son. About five minutes later another woman sticks her head in, says “Oh, good! There’s someone here!” shoves her two children in the door, and heads off to service. Somehow I got drafted into being the babysitting service for the day, in a church I’d never been to. I never did get into the service. The look on the priest’s face was priceless when he found out afterwards.
Nothing wrong with practicing discretion, for the same reason that we don’t smack on chips and belch in a church service: human feeding can be a little oogy, and respect for the feelings of others should lead us to make reasonable accommodations. (Close your mouth when you chew, etc.)
That said – babies have to eat. Babies are the next generation. The interests of the next generation trump propriety and formal social rules. Fuck ’em if they don’t recognize that; feed your kid where you need to feed your kid.
Thought I should clarify. I don’t actually have a problem with a woman escorting her son – even at nine – into a woman’s restroom. There are some places where I wouldn’t feel safe letting my son use the men’s restroom by himself, and I would not try to second-guess her. I did think it ironic that she was glaring at me for daring to expose her son to a boobie (gasp!), when by most standards of prurience she was at least as out of line as I was.
Reasonable accommodation: Not flinging your shirt away, doing nipple circles in the air while dripping and yelling “Whoo-hoo! Time to feed the baby!”
Unreasonable accommodation: Heaving a blanket over what would otherwise be a perfectly happy nursing infant, on the off chance that someone might catch a glimpse of boobage.
As long as we can agree on these terms, we’re fine.
Well, I’d like to see the nipple flinging one.
Butting into comments to post my solidarity and outrage as a breastfeeding mother. I cannot BELIEVE the crap that gets foisted on women for breastfeeding. Especially given the (already mentioned) emphasis that’s being put on the health benefits of bf’ing. I mean, how are women supposed to accomplish this without offending the sensibilities of backwards thinkers who attach sexual overtones to the breast? I will not be isolated in my home because I breastfeed my child. I will also not be confined to a bathroom. I tried it once and it was awful. These are not reasonable expectations for society at large to have of women.
I don’t have a problem with mothers breastfeeding in public. But if they change the baby’s diaper on a restaurant table, I’m going to object.
Robert, most men your age have given up on National Lampoon, haven’t they ?
I wouldn’t know, Alsis. Most men my age belong to teh Patriarchy, and I try to avoid evil companions so as not to be led astray.
I make an exception in your case, of course.
I must admit that I hadn’t thought much about breastfeeding in public – until I spent a week with my sister and my (then) 2 year old neice and 6 month old nephew. After just a few days of tagging along (and trying to help) as she went about doing normal errands that people without infants and toddlers take for granted as simply “errands” – rather than expeditions – I quickly came to the conclusion that:
Whenever, whereever, however. I don’t care. Do what you need to do. The idea that you should deny your child sustinence – or live under house arrest – because someone might be offended by seeing a naked breast, is ridiculous. Especially when Kiera Knightly sits naked on the cover of Vanity Fair not two ailes down.
I don’t actually have a problem with a woman escorting her son – even at nine – into a woman’s restroom. There are some places where I wouldn’t feel safe letting my son use the men’s restroom by himself, and I would not try to second-guess her.
Heh. I went to use the restroom at work today and there was a boy about seven or eight in the women’s restroom by himself. I was surprised to realize that I couldn’t really care less. ‘Course um, I should clarify that he was using the facilities, of course, not simply hanging around – that would have been a bit creepy.
To clarify my point.
I too, have been exposed to the need to breastfeed babies and small kids in public. I also recognize that there are some folks out there who don’t necessarily want to watch all the details of such and am grateful for those gals who do cover up.
I took a couple of blasts from folks who took issue with this. First, let me point out that the gal in question did not mention that her baby took issue at all with being covered up. If this was the case, I’m sure she would have happily told us.
I am tired of people who go out of their way just to inflame for the purpose of inflaming. There are people who get great enjoyment out of trying to offend as many people as they can. Hey, good for you, but don’t get upset when I just ignore you. Those who posted here claiming that anyone who felt uncomfortable watching barebreasted suckling was somehow thinking anything about sex? You make me vomit.
Feeding kids – priority #1. Trying to get along with others – somewhere down the line in priorities. Trying to offend folks for sake of attention – go play in the NFL.
By the way – I do truly feel for mothers who feel any in
azbballfan–If you bothered to read my story (http://reluctantlactivist.blogspot.com/2006_04_01_reluctantlactivist_archive.html) AND you actually trusted me…that I’m a modest mama…that I feel quite vulnerable when nursing in public because you just never know when some asshole is going to say something…that I’m not some lying, inflaming exhibitionist who gets off on flashing my tits at strangers. I’m just a mom…a tired, frazzled mom, who dared to feed my frantically hungry baby (who’d just nursed 30 minutes before, but nevertheless wanted more) where and when he needed to eat. Going to the grocery store with my toddler and newborn IS an expedition. Maybe other moms got it so much more together than me. Maybe they have smaller, more discreet breasts. Whatever.
I don’t know if my son minds being covered up, but I know I would mind is someone put a blanket over my head while I was eating, so I’ve never even considered that an option. Perhaps the people who are so uncomfortable seeing babies eat should walk around with blankets over their heads.
Chris,
I trust you as a mother, you did not mention feeding your baby for 30 minutes . Your post did express disdain after quoting the manager as saying: “Oh, good. You’re getting a blanket.” So I made the rational assumption that you chose to feed your baby in public without covering the baby.
I’ve got not problem covering my head in public to eat if I feel that the way I eat is going to offend. I’m diabetic and have no problem hiding myself as I test blood sugar levels and inject myself with insulin. I know that needles make some people nervous and upset.
I’m glad that there are efforts under way to educate people about the challenges faced by diabetics but I am also sympathetic to those who get queazy by needles. Hopefully the next generation of folk wont’ face the same problem, but I’m not going to condemn anyone for feeling queazy around needles.
Finally, I recognize that going to the store is difficult for mom’s with two small children. Please feel free to complain if circumstances leave you in a crowded store during rush hour with a hungry baby. Please feel free to express your frustration with people who aren’t comfortable with breastfeeding in public.
I just imagine my grandmother trying to get through the line of a supermarket with a gal breastfeeding uncovered in front of her. She’s 90 years old and, while open to a lot, still feels uncomfortable in this situation. While I would feel for both parties I wouldn’t feel the need to condemn either.
I personally don’t feel uncomfortable around those openly breastfeeding, unless they feel rightous about condemning anyone else who is uncomfortable with it.
Unfuckingbelievable. Sex is undoubtedly an issue with folks who object. Look, for example, at Robert’s comment (# 25). I have little sympathy for somebody who can’t see a boob as anything other than a sexual body part. I have little sympathy for them when the fact that breasts are used for feeding babies squicks them. If it isn’t a conflation with sex, what is the objection, azbballfan? Why does your grandmother feel uncomfortable? I’m guessing it has to do with the sexual mores that she has (women shouldn’t expose their chests).
I’ve got not problem covering my head in public to eat if I feel that the way I eat is going to offend.
Why would anybody feel that a baby eating is going to offend? That just boggles. And, if you have no problem eating under a blanket in public, you are an extremely unusual person.
I just can’t understand how breastfeeding is in any way objectionable. It certainly seems generally less offensive than, say, nose blowing. Yet I see people blowing their noses in public all the time and I haven’t yet noticed people telling the noseblowers to be more discreet.
I think that the proper response to people who complain to you when you are breastfeeding is, “Fuck off.”
Jake,
Robert’s comment clearly implies reference to humor.
As to why my grandmother would feel uncomfortable waiting in line to buy her groceries within close proximity to a bare breasted woman feeding her baby? My grandmother loves kids and babies, but also was raised in a household which did have differenet mores about what is proper. My support for the new generation of moms does not supplant my support for those moms who raised me and my parents.
My grandmother would never say anything other than to her family. Out of respect for my grandmother and others who don’t yet feel comforatable, I would feel comfortable asking a nursing mother GRACIOUSLY if she wouldn’t mind covering up. If she would mind, I’d openly express my support and apologize. (then of course wonder why)
Do you think I’m unreasonable for not openly using needles to manage my blood sugar level? Am I a prude for not wanting to inject myself in public? Am I harming the plight of diabetics everywhere by showing a little compassion for those NOT affected? Am I less of a human being because being diabetic is somehow less rightous than being a mother?
It comes down to respect. If you chose to repsect others, then do so.
If you chose to promote telling people to “fuck off” = chances are you aren’t all that interested in promoting respect.
I don’t assume you’d be upset seeing the mother feed her baby with a bottle–an artificial breast.
There’s no ‘gracious’ way to express to a nursing mother than you feel the sight of her feeding her baby is indecent.
Jake, there are reasons other than sexual hangups that people might feel uncomfortable with seeing a feeding baby. It was not that long ago that it was considered animalistic behavior to be seen eating in the street; that the taboo has fallen out of fashion doesn’t mean it doesn’t still hold some sway in the minds of the older generation. There’s nothing wrong with acknowledging that, without casting aspersions on the people involved.
Since the act that precedes the discomfort (feeding) is a natural and justifiable practice, it’s clear that the answer to discomfort is for the person who is not comfortable to politely clear the area, or suck it up, stare at the ceiling, and think of England in cases where that isn’t possible (airplanes or what have you). Obviously the needs of the infant are the paramount concern, with the comfort of the mother a close second. Equally obviously, it is the judgment of the sapient being most intimately bound to the infant (mom) which should control the behavioral context.
The functional validity of the old-fashioned mores can be deprecated, however, without having to disregard the feelings of the people holding them. Jake, your comment repeatedly uses the language of incomprehension – “I just can’t understand”, “that just boggles”, “I’m guessing”. If you genuinely do not comprehend the state of mind of another human being, it would seem to me that telling them to “fuck off” is an expression of discomfort at your own disorientation and bewilderment, not a statement of righteousness from someone who knows where truth and decency lies. Hostility is rarely a productive way to resolve a lack of knowledge.
mythago,
Regarding the bottle – I know of no-one who has not been sensitized to seeing a woman feed a baby a bottle.
I do think there is a “gracious” way of asking someone if they wouldn’t mind covering up while breastfeeding. Of course the breastfeeder could say they would mind, but I hope we live in a society where she/he wouldn’t necessarily feel condemned by the question.
See, this right here is showing a complete lack of understanding of the situation. When I breastfeed my daughter, I refuse to make her or myself uncomfortable with the blanket fight of covering her head and making her hot and uncomfortable while she nourishes herself, especially because someone cannot wrap their head around the primary function of said breasts. Very few women (none in fact that I’m aware of) nurse their children in public in hopes of passerby stopping to watch all the details. Would you even think twice if the person sitting on that bench was eating a bigmac before they went inside? I didn’t think so. So what do you have against the wee ones that have a far faster metabolism, and much less ability to grok the fact that it might not be such a convenient time.
So you’re taking some lumps on this thread – I’m sorry if that is upsetting, but perhaps it is also giving you some perspective of the situation.
As for making any argument about the respected desire for modest behavior of women before us – well guess what? What they endured wasn’t fair or good or right, and if they got used to it as being ‘right’, well that’s sad for them, but I by no means am willing to cater to the sexist and objectifying beliefs of old because it might make Grandma feel better as she goes through the check-out lane.
Azballfan, what is it exactly that you have against seeing a portion of a breast? Seriously here, what exactly are you feeling is being shown that would require any such ‘gracious’ requests?
Would you feel the same comfort in walking up to a woman that is wearing a low cut blouse to cover up with a blanket or jacket that was eating a hamburger on the bench?
Kim,
Thank you for asking.
Actually, I’m not personally against seeing any part of a breast myself. Nor am I necessarily interested in seeing it (for those who would claim some weird pleasure).
I wouldn’t ask anyone to cover up if there wasn’t a baby involved. This may seem sexist, but I would be assuming that the gal involved had more control over the situation.
I wouldn’t feel the same comfort coming up to a gal with a low cut blouse as a gal eating a hamburger on the bench. In that case, I’d expect the gal NOT wearing a low cut blouse to have an agenda which I’d want to question.
In this instance, I am assuming (due to the statement of the accuser) that three people felt uncomfortable with the situation enough to say something to the store manager and the store manager felt compelled to approach the mother.
I am totally in support of the mother, but also ask her to acknowledge that at this time in our history, it MAY be the case that a few folks may be out there who are still struggling with the comfort level around public breastfeeding.
Really, my position is for those who want us to stretch the minds of those around us – but not necessarily at the expense of those who’ve done much to help us get where we are. I am proud of my affection towards my two grandmothers.
Well Az, here’s the thing. It doesn’t cost your grandmothers or anyone else anything to avert their eyes and not foist their unwarranted sensitivity on women and babies that do in fact have something at stake.
And while you are perhaps not seeing it as a sexual turn-on thing, you are accepting and conceeding to the notion that breasts are either primarily sexual, or somehow disgusting to behold. While it’s an obnoxious point of view, it’s your right and your grandma’s right, but beyond that, it is you or your grandma that is being rude by expecting women who nurse to cater to their needs for any reason what so ever.
Beyond that, the notion that you feel you would have to question a woman in a low cut blouse makes me wonder whether you’ve given much thought to how you view the sexuality of women in general. And you didn’t really answer my question and seem to think that saying that asking her to cover up when nursing is somehow acceptible because you feel she lacks some control, or is somehow perhaps unaware that a portion of her breast is showing and she should be doing something about it. Women are expected to behave in a way that makes the public feel comfortable, and this is not okay with me. I for one will not accept the idea that if it’s phrased sweetly, asking women to compromise themselves and worse yet the compromise the comfort of their child to cater to the sexist beliefs of others is acceptible is again not okay with me.
And as a counter to your comment that Chris should acknowledge that a few folks may be struggling, well I think she has, but she isn’t their mother, nor is she responsible for their outdated and aggressively offensive and harmful to women beliefs. In fact, I’d say she is responsible (as are all women) for just the opposite – to maintain in the face of such adversity the belief and behavior that perpetuates support and respect for women and their decisions. Anything else implies a lack of trust in women that is not only undeserved, but sexist and harmful.
About covering up: my mother suggested I feed my daughter underneath my sweater so “No-one can see what you’re doing.” Right, no-one – including me. Unless I can see her mouth, I can’t be sure she’s got a good latch until it starts hurting, which is somewhat too late.
I’ve been lucky: everywhere I’ve fed my daughter, from trains to football grounds to a bench in the street (she was starving!), I’ve got nothing but supportive comments or polite silence. I have, however, drawn a cartoon about the less supportive attitudes, if anyone’s interested…
Jake, your comment repeatedly uses the language of incomprehension – “I just can’t understand”, “that just boggles”, “I’m guessing”.
Well, I’ve yet to see an explanation from anybody as to why breastfeeding is offensive.
It was not that long ago that it was considered animalistic behavior to be seen eating in the street…
I’ll admit that this is the first time I’ve heard that. Okay, then. I’ll forgive the discomfort of those over 80 & still tell them to mind their own business. But those who voice their offense at breast feeding are usually under the age of 80, so what’s their reasoning?
Hostility is rarely a productive way to resolve a lack of knowledge.
Do as I say, not as I do, eh? As demonstrated by:
If you genuinely do not comprehend the state of mind of another human being, it would seem to me that telling them to “fuck off” is an expression of discomfort at your own disorientation and bewilderment, not a statement of righteousness from someone who knows where truth and decency lies.
Besides which, your logic isn’t valid. Just because I don’t understand why somebody would be offended by, say, seeing a woman in a business suit in no way means that I don’t know where truth and decency lie. The end of your sentence in no way follows from the beginning of your sentence. It is merely hostility on your part. So, shall we apply your logic to yourself? Or is it not hostile if you don’t curse?
Robert’s comment clearly implies reference to humor.
Yes, I understand that it is a joke. What you’re missing is that it is a joke that relies on the belief that boobs are for sex. Which is what my comment was about – the sexualization of breasts to the exclusion of all other functions.
Do you think I’m unreasonable for not openly using needles to manage my blood sugar level? Am I a prude for not wanting to inject myself in public?
I think that is weird. I would guess that you don’t inject yourself in public out of fear of being thought a drug addict rather than out of concern for others. (Disclosure: I have diabetic family members & have seen them inject themselves). That is, shame is the motivating force rather than concern for the delicate sensibilities of the public. The sexualization of boobs is being used the same way – keep women from breast feeding in public by using the shame of exposing sexualized/fetishized body parts.
No I don’t think you’re a prude, it’s entirely your choice and if you don’t want to inject in public then of course you shouldn’t have to. Similarly if a woman doesn’t want to breastfeed in public, no one is arguing that she should, and she is not a prude for preferring privacy. But if she does choose to, or needs to feed in public, there is nothing wrong with that, and it would be rude and inconsiderate of anyone to give her a hard time for doing something as essential and harmless as feeding her baby.
I don’t think I should have to look at someone’s breast while I amout in public and I know my husband or son would not be happy about it either. At least you could have done is covered yourself up out of respect for other people. I know breastfeeding is good for the baby but have respect for others too.
Eh, I’ve seen more men and boys pissing in public than I’ve *ever* seen women breastfeeding (even covered up breasts). Go figure on that one. /sarcasm
Kim, another awesome post. Keep up the good work!
Well, Shelley, I don’t think that I should have to look at someone in public who doesn’t think that they should have to see a (gasp!) uncovered breastfeeding mother in public. Will you from this point on cover yourself out of respect to others?
You know what else offends my delicate sensibilities? Yellow clothing. Please have consideration for others and don’t wear yellow in public.
Shelley, there’s a simple solution to your problem. Don’t look.
Shelley, you don’t have to look at anyone’s breast, the worst that can happen is that you catch a brief glimpse of part of the breast for around one second before you look away – and I would look away too, not because I’m upset by seeing breasts but because it’s polite not to stare.
I would honestly like to know why the possibility of seeing another woman’s breast for a few seconds is such a disturbing idea for you. Breasts are not sexual organs, they are not generally considered dirty or disgusting. No sarcasm, I would like to know what it is about a breast that offends you and others so much.
Ooh, Nick, cartoon please.
I’ve been lucky in that nobody ever made any disparaging comments about my nursing my kids in public, and the second kid nursed for over two years (that is, he was over two when he weaned, not that he nursed constantly for two years, although it seemed like it at the time). In retrospect, it would have been entertaining to write a few words on the ol’ mammary tissue: “If You Can Read This, You’re Distracting The Baby”.
I don’t have time to read everyone’s comments before writing mine, so my apologies if I said something already said!
The irony involved in telling breastfeeding mothers to be discreet or do it privately is completely unbelieveable. We have this cultural message that says, “breast is best” it’s the catch phrase – but no one actually means that. So, breast is best for at least the first 6 months, better the whole year and then well, support sort of dwindles after babies reach a year despite all the evidence we have that says that nursing has numerous benefits way past the first year of life. Anyway, breast is best, but don’t do it in public. Which essentially means to anyone with a 6 month old or younger – you never get to leave the house for more than 45 minutes at a time. Breastfeeding is HARD WORK – I never knew how hard until I did it myself – I nursed for 24 weeks and reluctantly gave it up when I went back to work because my daughter just wouldn’t do the work of nursing when she was used to bottles, but anyway, because nursing was hard work, it took a major committment on my part to keep doing it. If I had paid any heed to all those people who were so freaking crazy about “privacy” I never would have been able to keep going. We had friends who would come over and the woman who has 2 children she nursed – one she had only just weaned had a fit because I didn’t want to go in the other room to nurse because her husband was there. He didn’t care, I didn’t care, my husband didn’t care, but SHE cared and so I was banished for an hour while my daughter nursed and unable to enjoy adult company because the thought of her husband being in the same room with a woman who was nursing and wasn’t her was too distressful for her. If she wasn’t so important to my husband I would have told her to fuck off, but I digress.
Anyway, we say, “breast is best” but then you have all these idiots saying I guess that means you should never be in public. Idiots all of them.
Shelley, please either contribute intelligently and with some actual thought about the subject and genuine discussion offerings or find somewhere else to state your opinions. This is a feminist blog, and also it’s at least moderately academic in it’s approach; your commentary was neither feminist, supporting of women or even remotely academic and contributory to an intelligent and thoughtful discussion – consider this a warning in case you are planning on posting again.
I don’t think I should have to look at someone’s breast while I amout in public and I know my husband or son would not be happy about it either..
Well, I don’t think I should have to look at black people in public. We should ask them to cover up with blankets.
/ snark
Anyway, to show you how ridiculous the breastfeeding craziness gets, I work at a daycare in which a mother has complained about other mothers breastfeeding in the infant room. As a result, there’s a separate “nursing room” where mothers can sit with their babies and be alone instead of in the classroom, where they could talk to the teachers and learn about their child’s day. Doesn’t that sound like a great idea?
Most women choose to nurse in their infant’s classroom, but I just find it ridiculous that a separate room is needed, especially at a daycare.
I hate to say it, but I think Robert is on to something—that it’s not just sexual connotations about the breast that bothers the anti-public-breastfeeding crowd, but the “animalistic” connotations too—especially considering that “proper” women are supposed to be tame, not like an “animal” at all. In fact, that was how the bottle was marketed—that science was “better” than nature, that the bottle was more “civilized” than the breast—-and of course, there’s a whole range of class and race baggage that could be unpacked there.
But with that said, I’ve never heard of eating on the street being regarded as animalistic, and I regularly talk to elders. I mean, outdoor cafes and streetside food carts have been around a helluva lot longer than the industrial age.
La Labu, I think eating on the street was somewhat more socially acceptable in certain urban settings than in rural areas. I asked my 90-year-old grandmother, who only ever lived in a city for about 2 years and the rest of the time was living in a house out in middle of the miles and miles of waving fields of grain. She said that she wouldn’t have called it animalistic, although maybe that’s why it was frowned upon – people were just supposed to sit at a table to eat; she said it was kind of respectful toward the providers and the preparers of the food to set aside the meal as something other than a stoking session. If a farmhand was too far away to make it back to the house to eat lunch, he was supposed to find a quiet spot, sit down, and take his time with whatever was in his lunch pail. Nobody ever ate lunch while working – she said when I asked her about that practice that no civilized person would do that.
That said, I don’t think people react negatively to breastfeeding in public because they think it looks like the baby is eating at work. I think it’s because of the old-fashioned belief that good girls don’t bare their private parts in public. Which is so stupid. And I totally agree that the daycare separation policy is stupid, too. I used to nurse my son when I picked him up from daycare before we got into the car, until one of the other mothers complained that I was doing it in front of her kid and maybe also her husband if he happened to arrive while I was doing it. So my daycare provider had to move the nursing rocker into another room and I had to close the door. Yargh.
Hmm, I’m feeling ambivalent here and I need to sort it out before I have my first kid in September! I’m very modest, and I dread a scenario where I might have to bare a breast in public. Although I’m told that pretty much all your standards of privacy, cleanliness, etc. go out the window once you have a baby.
I have always been pro-breastfeeding and always planned to do so myself. Yet, oddly, I’ve always felt a little weird when I come across someone breastfeeding, even under a blanket (‘cuz ya still know what’s going on under there!). When one of my sisters-in-law whips out a breast and baby goes to town, it strikes me as bizarre that I feel a little creeped out. Maybe simply because my own breasts have always only been part of my sex life, and it’s hard not to identify that way.
I think there might be something else besides the sexual going on here, though. Maybe just something about personal boundaries, which can vary widely. I’d rather watch a million moms nursing their infants than be stuck on the bus near someone clipping their nails in public. Good lord, people, save your grooming and shedding for when you get home!!!! Living in San Francisco, where many people feel free to hock up stuff on the sidewalk right in front of you, was tough for me that way. And when I test my blood sugar, I do it someplace where a co-worker can’t see me. It does weird some people out if they come across you while you’re sticking pins in yourself or dropping some blood into the test strip.
Two P.S. thoughts:
Jeez, I wonder how old Fred Meyer would have felt about his employees harassing his customers. Of course, now that Kroger has bought out Freddy’s, I expect he’s spinning in his grave over a lot of the changes they’ve made.
Baby. Crying. If you have to put something in its mouth to quiet it, a nipple seems like the best possible thing, no?
Roving;
I completely understand your anxiety. It was very hard for me to commit myself to breastfeeding exclusively and extendedly prior to giving birth. My issues were more about having grown up being large chested and having always been made to feel objectified as ‘the large breasted girl’, be it via nicknames, teasing from girls in the locker-room about wearing a bra when others weren’t, much less wearing something other than a training bra, and then also from boys trying to cop a feel, leer salaciously or ask inappropriate questions about them. Suffice it to say it took me until my twenties to get beyond my own breast issues, and I was reluctant to give up what peace I’d made when faced with the idea of having to breastfeed. I committed myself to trying to nurse for at least three months to get some benefit to the baby, but I felt for sure that I’d quit by the time that milestone was around. What I wasn’t expecting was the sheer level of pride and fulfillment I felt in finally understanding and being able to use my breasts for the exact purpose they were meant for, to the most enthusiastic and appreciative audience in the world. This new understanding committed me to trying to be as open and talkative about it as possible, as well as supporting women that need support with any and all things related to breastfeeding. It’s extremely important to the baby, but it’s also very valuable to the women who do breastfeed in claiming their bodies back from a society intent on taking them from us through invasive and often times sexualized expectations and objectification.
Trust me when I tell you this; though it might take a few weeks getting used to it and working through all the rough spots, nursing is very much worth it, and when you get to the point that you’re doing it, you won’t be worrying about anything other than you and your child.
Wow! You gals would be quite offended by the behaviour exhibited where I live(India). Here no women would EVER openly breastfeed kids. If they do they use a blanket or whatever. Guys invariably feel a little discomfort with that sort of thing.
Kim,
Thanks for your words. You really hit the nail on the head there. I hadn’t thought about it in this context (duh), but I’ve always been very self-conscious about being large-breasted. It always equalled negative attention, so “they” and “I” had a pretty adversarial relationship. It wasn’t until long into my marriage that I could even learn to claim them as part of my body in bed. Now I have to learn to relate to them all over again, in public! But I do feel very encouraged and plan to give breastfeeding a very determined try.
In my experience (still exclusively breastfeeding my 9 month old twins) the people who do not approve of public breastfeeding don’t really approve of breastfeeding period. Or, if they don’t dissaprove of breastfeeding per se they still don’t see it as being any better than bottle feeding a baby formula. My father in law doesn’t even approve of me breastfeeding my babies in front of him in my own living room, and he is simply baffled as to why I don’t just give them formula (“like everyone else does”) instead.
Therefore there isn’t really a disconnect for the dissaproving where the breast if best argument is concerned because most of them think breastfeeding is both indecent and unnecessary. Thankfully I’ve never had a stranger direct negative comments my way the few times I’ve bfed in public, but then again I felt like I had to cover up as much as possible so that I didn’t get hassled for it. Of course if my father in law ever saw me breastfeed in public I think his head would explode.
Lola, I think you’re on to something there. I think personally, from observation of that and related phenomena, that it has less to do with sex than an overall body-squeamishness that a lot of people (particularly, I think, people who come from a heavily Aquinas-influenced cultural background) have. It’s the old mind (or soul)/body duality thing again — anything to do with the body is some level of icky to start with, and things that have to do with reproduction, eating, and excreting are at the top of the “distasteful bodily functions” list. As near as I can tell, breastfeeding hits two of those categories, and probably subconsciously twigs the third for a lot of people.
This is, of course, not to justify the attitude, but rather to explain it. Simply because it has an understandable cause doesn’t make it right. (Then again, in the intrests of full disclosure, I have to admit that ideologically I’m fully on the side of “anytime, anywhere” breastfeeding, but I do get squeamish about it, as I do about lots of other body-related things, up to and including glimpsing someone putting in their contact lenses, so I have, shall we say, a rather heightened awareness of the issue.)
I have also absorbed some of the idea that eating on the street is not the proper thing to do, which is I suspect also tied up in class issues.
Lest anyone get the idea that I’m trying to make this question simple, I’m not. I think it’s multivalent, but I’m surprised nobody’s yet explicitly brought up the idea that, despite all the objectification and glorification, this culture still basically considers all bodies to be vaguely repulsive in certain ways.
I’m a bit puzzled by the claim of a general public taboo against public eating anytime within the last 100 years.
Zillions of hotdogs were sold, carried around and eaten at the Columbia Exposition in 1893. Ice cream cones have been eaten in public since the turn of the last century. Both products had great commercial success when introduced and continue to be consumed in public. I could name additional instances of public eating, but I think most people realize eating in public was not “taboo”!
If public eating in general makes your grandmother uncomfortable, she really might need to get used to the fact that she is rather unusual even for her generation. People would find her request both ridiculous and rude if she asked discretely them to throw blankets over their heads while eating hot dogs. Why should breast feeding mothers react differently?
As others have noted, Lucia, the taboo against public eating apparently varied widely in strength, by generation, geography and class, and undoubtedly by other factors as well.
Robert,
I have not seen a single person posting here provide the slightest scrap of evidence that there was ever any taboo against people eating in public. Taboo is a very strong word which signifies something was forbidden; examples include the incest taboo.
Eating in public places has been permitted everywhere in the United States for quite some time (likely since before the American Revolution). Eating in public is not only permitted, it is common place, and has been, as I pointed out, for at least a century. (I suspect it has always been.)
It is ridiculous to suggest that this behavior was taboo!
Now, I might concede there were some people of certain generations in some parts of the country who thought eating in public was gauche. Gauche is not the same as taboo.
And I have to say that I would hardly be sympathetic to your hypothetical grandmother if she insisted that mothers and infants were required to bend themselves into pretzels to save her from witnessing something she considered gauche. Most books of etiquette would decree that when others are in greate need, your grandmother is required to avert her gaze and not complain.
I guess the real reason that I don’t like moms to breastfeed in public doesn’t have anything at all to do with the act of breastfeeding.
It’s overpopulation. We have endangered all future generations because of how much our population has grown, and how much we consume. I have ceased to see new-born babies as adorable little bundles of joy, but instead as one more step toward environmental instability.
I am reminded of that island where some ship left a few deer for whatever reason. The vegatation was plentiful, so the deer ate, and multiplied. In time the deer population became too large for the vegatation to renew itself fast enough to feed the herd, and all the deer starved.
Previous generations had the luxury of not acknowledging the resource problems associated with overpopulation. Today we are not so lucky. If we do not begin to think about how shortages will affect future generations, does that mean we are no better at long-term planning than a herd of deer?
I realize this is a thread about breastfeeding, but again, every time I see a newborn nursing I think, “What a little deer!” I’m not endeering myself to the doe-eyed mothers here, am I?
I do see your point.Mine was unplanned and as much as I would never change my situation for anything I still can’t understand people when they ask me if I’m going to have another child….or how many would I like to have.It seems to me like they’re talking about an item at a super market.I may sound strange but its a human life and as wonderful as they are I do have to consider how the world is today and not have another child just cus they’re so cute,etc.
Now commenting on breastfeeding…I just can’t believe that nursing a child has to be something that I have to stand up for.I’m still nursing my 19 month old and live in the South,so imagine the comments I get.I would just like to figure out why the most natural things in life are so foriegn to some people.
I actually work at fred meyers, and I found it quite interesting to come across this artical as just a few months ago all the employees got a “read and sign” (obviously a paper in which we all must read and then sign noting that we have read and understand it) on the state policy as well as fred meyer policy on breast feeding. So I would just like to note, that indeed your activism has worked, congrats :)
Seriously!!!!!! I’m a mother of three,and I’m a single mother! Children don’t always wait until it is the proper time to be hungry! If you don’t feed them then CSD would take them away for negletct. You Can’t win either way! I’m a very modest person and I always use a blankie or a hooter hider and people look at me like I ran over the family cat. Even though I’m wearing more clothes than most girls do on a daily basis. Why is it okay for girls to walk around with clevage out all day, when it’s to nurse a child they want you to put it away and cover up. Why has society become so twisted that people only want to see what they find attractive. If a super model was topless it’s a good thing? If you want to feed you’re child it’s a bad thing? W…T…F?