In the comments of my post, False Allegation Worse Than Rape? cross-posted to Alas Ed wrote:
Would you rather be raped or incarcerated for 1, 10, or 20 years. Maybe I am a freak but I will take a rape, ESPECIALLY the I am too drunk to remember kind, over giving up years of my life. No hesitation, no second thoughts.
Okay, I’ll take your choice and run with it. Since rape by it’s definition is beyond the rape victim’s control, I’ll create a full scenario from that to show how this “easy” choice may not be something that’s over and done with in one night.
Since many rapes happen on college campuses, our fictional raped man is a senior who has landed his perfect job and his perfect fiance. He’s at a party where he bumps into a girl he dated his freshman year. He broke up with her when he discovered that she was into drugs, porn and sleeping around. This night she hands him a Coke (he gave up drinking alcohol at the same time this relationship ended) and tells him that she’s turned her life around and because he once cared for her, he sips his drink and listens to her financial plans even though he wishes he could be anywhere else.
The smoke and the noise start getting to him and he tells this girl that it was good seeing her, but it’s time for him to go since he has a big test in the morning. She tells him that she’s ready to leave also, but the walk to her dorm takes her through an area where a girl was raped the month before. Because he’s a gentleman, he reluctantly agrees to see her safely to the entrance of her dorm.
The girl waves at those around them and tells them she’s being seen safely home so they don’t have to worry about her. A few people wink suggestively, but our man needs fresh air too much to correct anyone’s impression about his intentions.
The next morning, our man wakes up naked in a strange bed. He’s in a dorm room and it isn’t his. He sits up and feels like he’s going to puke. As he rushes to get dressed and get to his class which he’s already late for, he nearly trips over a tripod.
By the time he gets his supplies from his dorm room and gets to the class where his big test has already started, he’s so waxen that the professor suggests he go to the infirmary. He doesn’t and instead somehow makes it back to his dorm room and collapses.
The next morning he’s fine and he soon takes that exam and he just knows he aced it. Friday night, he and his fiance have a romantic encounter and everything is once again as it should be.
The end?
Not so fast. This man was raped, remember.
A few days later, a group of students he doesn’t know well point at him. He hears something about him being movie star material. His fiance has told him more than once that he has the looks to be a model, but looks aren’t what matter to him. Still, he gets a little ego boost.
The day after that, his fiance has her best friend return his engagement ring. He tries to contact her, but is told to stop stalking her.
A week later, his favorite professor stops calling on him.
A month after he walked his ex-girlfriend home, a representative from the perfect employer who made a written job offer, tells him that his job offer is being withdrawn. The person says something about a background and credit check. He immediately goes online and requests his credit report, but it is still pristine. His name isn’t uncommon so maybe his future employer has mistaken someone else for him.
He goes online and searches for his name and finds it listed on his ex-girlfriend’s web site. To see what she’s written about him he would have to pay since she has a fee-based members-only section. Adults only.
He vaguely remembers her saying that she was paying her way through college by designing and maintaining web sites, but this isn’t what he envisioned. He wants to know what’s linked to his name, but he doesn’t want to pay to find out.
He talks to several friends and the ones who, like him, stay focused on the goal of building a stable future don’t have a clue. But a friend he parted ways with around the same time he broke up with this old girlfriend, winks and calls him a real stud. Feeling nearly as sickly as the night he walked his old girlfriend home, he waits while this old friend turns on his computer.
Far too soon he sees what happened that night. And he looks like a willing participant in the making of porn. The woman keeps her face averted so his identity is the only one that is unquestionable.
Without having to think about it twice he says, “She must have slipped drugs into my Coke. This was rape.”
The other man laughs. “Yeah, that’s your story and you’re sticking to it.”
Within hours it seems like everyone on campus starts calling him, “Raped Man.”
He goes to the campus police and the officer tells him that’s what you get when you do drugs or go binge drinking. The man then asks if he at least had enough common sense to use protection.
He hadn’t even thought about STDs. With his ex-girlfriend’s drug habit, she could very possibly be HIV positive. He gets tested, but he’s told he needs to be retested for HIV even if this test comes back negative.
He scrounges together enough money to pay for an attorney without talking to his parents. The attorney sends a letter demanding that the video be removed immediately. A letter is sent to his lawyer saying he signed a consent form. He remembers signing a form his freshman year when she wanted to submit his portrait to a competition. The lawyer asks him how he could be so stupid.
The rest of his senior year doesn’t get any better and college becomes an endurance event. He contacts other employers who offered him a job, but they tell them the position he was offered has already been filled. Six months after graduation, he finds a job but it pays far less than the position he lost. He saves every extra dollar and has a new lawyer make an offer to have the video removed. A ridiculous counter offer is made but he feels he has no choice so he pays it.
He gets involved with his local church and finds a safe place. He avoids talking about his college experience. Two years after he was raped, he has another HIV test taken and to his relief, it comes back negative. He then asks the woman he loves to marry him and hopes she will never learn about the video. He doesn’t even think about telling her what happened to him.
As they build a family, he prays that video never surfaces again.
This sort of scenario could happen to a college woman. Even the refusal by so many people to see her as a real rape victim. Only a woman might get far enough in the process to be identified by many as someone who made a false allegation of rape.
The scariest part is my fear of posting this scenario since some will try to use it to minimize the impact of rape on women. “See, men can get raped too so stop talking about gender violence. If we can endure it without legal recourse, you can too.”
Also posted on my blog, http://abyss2hope.blogspot.com.
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I’m going to leave aside for a moment my amazement that anyone could be as big of an asshole as Ed, and just say that this post is very powerful. Thanks for taking the time to lay it out in such detail.
Thanks for the love and support Charlie. I understand my views are not supported or even well received here but I hope people realize I am not a troll.
A2H, I see your point but would still take the situation you described over even a single year in prison. I would take the situation you described over being added to a sex offender list, in fact. The problem with picking a preferred victimization cuts both ways…you seem to have picked yours and I mine. Do you think my fiance would have stayed with me when I was falsely accused of rape, through my year in prison. Do you think a woman who is dating me even 5 years from now is going to look at me the same when she finds my name on a sexual offender list?
It could be a personality difference, call me a control freak maybe, but it seems to me that the residual effects of a rape are internal. They are something I have some semblance of control over. My name on a list…the loss of my liberty for whatever amount of time, my legal fees, so on and so forth…. these things are external. I have no control, no way to steer them. This, I know, is personal preference. It seems though most of the arguments about severity are based on how the victim feels. This is how I feel, simply enough.
Excellent entry, good job! Quite vivid and true.
Ed:
Actually, I haven’t picked one over the other, just pointed out what I see as flaws in your view that men suffer more from false accusations than women suffer from being raped since you would pick being raped as if it were nothing. It’s a pat way to dismiss a serious problem without having to suffer either fate and one that trivializes the experiences of real victims.
Victims of false allegations aren’t just men since many people scream to see alleged victims — who they refuse to believe are real crime victims (most rapes have little real impact, after all) — punished if a jury doesn’t find the defendant guilty and sometimes even when the jury does return a guilty verdict.
Not arguing the scope of people hurt by false allegations either. I think it has been proven over and over again since the begining of civilization that society suffers when people cry wolf. Wrong is wrong but there is no way to do a point by point comparison of these things. (rape and false allegations) Mostly because they really aren’t the same thing. They don’t have the same motivation or reprecussions. I probably don’t understand the full scope of being a rape victim, as it doesnt really scare me. I do understand the fear of false accusations and the feeling of having to walk on eggshells throughout life to not set off a torrent of hateful comments like those of Chuck, above. Standing against false accusations does NOT make an individual pro-rapist or misogynistic any more than opposing rape makes someone misandric. It is ok to hate those guilty of hateful and hurtful behavior.
Most seem to agree, on the surface, that false allegations are bad for everyone.
But, in the same areas I see people fighting tooth and nail for tougher punishments and higher conviction rates in rape cases, I see post after post on how punishing perpetrators of false allegations would hurt rape victims. How it would scare real victims into not reporting. If we don’t deter them in any way how do we make them stop? Perhaps you havent chosen a preferred victimization but, through simple lack of enforcement of already existing laws, it seems that society has.
Out of curiosity, do you think this blog is such a space?
My apologies, Ed. You’re right. That was a hateful comment, and not one of my prouder moments.
So let me try again. You strike me as arguing dishonestly, and I find it unconscionable that you could take the position that you have. You are presenting a false dichotomy. You present the option of being raped or serving a prision sentence of one or more years as though they are the only two choices available. If you’ve spent any time at all reading feminist sites such as this one, you should have read dozens of times — including at least one post in the last few days — the point that we aren’t forced to choose. A person can be against rape and also be against false accusations of rape. You present the situation as though being for one makes us necessarily against the other, and that’s plain wrong. As you yourself pointed out, it isn’t like you’re new here. So you should know better. Thus, I’m forced to conclude that you are arguing dishonestly.
Having been molested (raped) as a youngster…more then once.
Havin gone to jail for drunk driving and possesing marijunna…
Jail was worse.
However…The consequences of the molestation have had a devistaing effect on my life.
I had been in the habbit of minimizing it. I suppose it was nessarry to help me move forward.
Till I was ready to deal with it.
Nobody wants to be held captive….rape has a way of imprisioning a person too.
At 13 years of age…I needed to prove I was not gay as a result of the molestation.
I found a woman , age 18 who wanted a relationship…she was into speed , smoking grass ect.
She was also into breaking and entering…and eventually went to jail for armed robbery and involving a minor..( not me ).
I got her preg. and within a year…her stealing made me want to end the relationship.
I tryed to see my son…but she would show up without him and try and have sex with me.
This went on for about a year…at 18 I was charged with child support…( and back support ) at this time 1980s..if you owed CS you dident get to see your kid.
She also moved accross country and I was not given any information …all they wanted to discuss was how much did I owe and when I would pay.
This woman went do jail for 16 years…the athoritys never informed me…My friend sent me a newspaper clipping telling me of what happend to my child mother.
She had 3 kids taken from her by the state…
Years later I tryed to have a relationship with my son…but he was very much his mother son…robbing , stealing ect and wasent interested in a father son relationship with me.
When this kids mom and I ran away from home…me 13 her 18…athoritys picked us up…they joked about my being a ( whoremaster ) with a wink.
The woman never got into any trouble at all for ( having sex with underaged male ) but I was charged with “corrupting my own morals”…two years probation.
All results of being molested when I was 11 years old by a 28 year old drunk.
Thanks A2H for pointing out that rape victims suffer in various ways after (and often before) the actual rape takes place. Ed seems to be suggesting that a rape that the victim doesn’t remember is not that traumatic – but those victims experience physical pain, stigmatisation, stress and fear too, and may get STIs as a result of their rape. The phrase ‘the problem with picking a preferred victimization’ got me thinking …
I’ve often heard otherwise reasonable people say things like ‘Yes, rape is a terrible crime and the risk of being raped is a burden for women, but women can cry rape whenever they want and the risk of being falsely accused for a man is similarly worrying as women’s fear of rape, so it’s about equal’. This idea really doesn’t make any sense to me. But I think it’s intertwined with lots of rape myths that are perhaps at the core of what you’re talking about.
Firstly I think these people don’t understand how false accusations of rape are still part of a rape culture and a ‘weapon of the underdog’, and thus inherently unequal. The threat and practise of rape is part of the oppression of women in our society and claiming to have been oppressed does not constitute gender equality. Cf. ‘White employers discriminating against Black employees is bad, but Black employees can falsely accuse their employers of racism so that makes it about equal’. Of course it doesn’t: the employers are still in a position of power because of their status as employers and their white privilege.
And I don’t believe innocent people receive lengthy prision sentences nearly as often as people get raped. About 10% of women get raped in their lifetime (conservative estimate). In contrast, only about 5% of reported rapes result in a conviction. This source says that the American rape conviction rape is about 0.22 per 1000 males yearly. That’s less than 1 in 4000. As it’s a yearly conviction rate I’m not quite sure how that works out to lifetime conviction rates, but I’m confident it’s much lower than 1 in 10, and probably even lower than the number of male rape victims (about 2 or 3%, conservative estimate, I think). So does the average man really have as much to fear from false accusers as the average woman from rapists? I think not. (And I hope people who know more about statistics than I do think the same :)).
On an individual level, of course it is pointless to talk about who is the bigger victim. No one deserves to be raped, and no one deserves to go to jail for rapes they didn’t commit, full stop. But it seems clear that women as a class suffer more from rape and rape-related crimes than men, as a class. I also think that both rape and the threat of false accusations of rape would be vastly reduced if people had healthier attitudes towards sex, i.e. don’t have sex with someone unless you’re sure you both want to and act responsibly.
The rarity of false rape accusations should be a boon for feminists .. Say you are for false accusations being vigorously prosecuted. That way, you look like you care about justice, and not just about getting stuff for yourselves.
A big reason men dislike feminism is that feminists are not, by and large, interested in ending discrimination against men. Seeming so self-interested, its not so clear how feminists differ from whitists, or any other group that wants people they don’t like to go to prison more often.
… feminists are not, by and large, interested in ending discrimination against men.
Not to belabour the obvious, but there is a reason it is called feminism. To use an undoubtedly bad analogy, this is like saying that the problem with capitalists is that they are not, by and large, interested in making sure that everybody has adequate resources.
Jeefie:
Yes, that’s it exactly. Some people can’t say “rape is a terrible crime” without adding the counterbalance of false allegations. Others can’t even say “rape is a terrible crime” and go straight to how rape laws punish innocent men.
Oldheathen:
First, my heart goes out to you. Your experience demonstrates, like so many others, that rape’s impact has a ripple effect that many people refuse to see. But just because they don’t see it doesn’t mean it isn’t there and it shouldn’t be taken seriously.
Like most rapists, I’m sure yours rationalized that the assault didn’t harm you in any significant way. Certainly not enough to warrant criminal charges.
Second, I think it was negligent of the police to view a 13 year old boy with an 18 year old woman any differently than they’d view it if the genders were reversed.
Ed:
At least part of the reason you need to walk on eggshells is that you enmeshed talk of false allegations with a dismissal of the severity of rape.
It communicates that your fear is more important than rape victims’ actual experiences. That fear doesn’t occur in a vacuum, defense attorneys for those accused of rape want you to feel like it could as easily be you in the defense chair. They won’t broadcast details of their cases that make it clear that you aren’t at the same level of risk as the accused. Rapists who escaped justice also have a stake in making you believe they were the true victims in their case and that next time it could be you.
That enmeshment prevents true dialogue on the genuine issues surrounding rape and the genuine issues surrounding true false allegations (vs. she couldn’t prove she was raped therefore she made a false allegation and must be punished).
Rob:
I am interested in ending discrimination against men (although I may define it differently than some MRAs). Most of the feminists I know want discrimination against men to end.
Yes, Amp, that’s true. But I get the feeling that Rob is talking about the bulk of activism readily (selectively?) visible to him. And, strangely, that activism is focused on ending discrimination against women. The feminist belief that ending discrimination against women will also function to end discrimination against men is far too complex (effects of patriarchy, gender roles, etc.), IMO, to deserve an in depth answer to such a stereotypically thoughtless statement. I tend to blunt right back.
Rob:
This statement makes no sense to me.
Wanting to see rapists (mostly men) convicted has nothing to do with not liking men. Wanting to see rape become extinct has nothing to do with liking women more. That’s far different from racial bias found in this Stanford study.
A big reason men dislike feminism is that feminists are not, by and large, interested in ending discrimination against men.
Gosh, you’re right. Why, I look back over history, and see the masses of men standing up to end discrimination against women, it just puts a lump in my throat.
Oh, wait. . .
Hey if all you want is more for your special interest group, just say so. But claiming patriarchy hurts men too. But don’t be surprised when other people want more for their special interest group, and no one cares about justice.
My point was that you look like you care about everyone when you throw a bone.
Compare the statements.
We want equality.
We want women to have more.
Sometimes they are equivalent. But not always. are you at statement 2?
As 52% of the population, I seriously doubt that women are a special interest group.
Personally, I want equality and I want women to have more. Do you, as a man, feel that you have to lose something in order for me to have either/both? If so, that’s a shame. It’s hard for me to imagine feeling so threatened by someone trying to better their life.
You’re dodging the point. Men have the power. Women don’t. Don’t complain that women don’t fight for men when men haven’t exactly been running out, fighting for women’s rights. Your own special interest group there.
Hopefully I can do this with no new concepts coming up.
A2H,
First, I don’t think I enmeshed fear of false allegations in with actual rape. If it seemed like that to you I was unclear or you misread what I said. I said I don’t understand what it is like to be a rape victim and do not fear it. There is a lot of talk on this site and by other feminists on how fear of rape due to rape culture makes every woman a victim. I don’t understand that fear because I have none of it. I have never NOT walked a particular way or gone to a particular place worried about being raped so it is outside of my scope…I can only try to empathize.
I have avoided intimate situations with women because I have come not to trust them as a gender. I have ended relationships because they have started displaying suspect behaviors that looked like it would lead to accusations or attempts to manipulate. I have also stopped giving most the benefit of the doubt due to personal experience and experiences shared to me by friends I trust. You can call that misogyny if you like and it is as accurate as saying that being fearful of being raped by a man is misandry.
I also believe I stated over and over that I am not trying to minimize the suffering of rape victims. I am saying that the falsely accused are victims as well. I truly believe that individuals that falsely accuse intentionally and with malice are vicimizers, abusers, and criminals. If that minimizes the suffering of rape victims I do not see how. I have stated that given the choice I think I would rather survive the rape. That is a personal opinion and only minimizes rape if you dismiss being falsely accused as unimportant. I think we have agreed on the fact that being agaisnt one does not make you for the other… that is a narrowminded, irrational way of oversimplifying it.
Amp,
I don’t think everyone here feels that way but some of the bloggers do. In even my limited experience I have run across many bloggers here and elsewhere that seem to feel that male suffering doesnt count. To them the potential distress of a rape victim fearing backlash, meaning being accused of making it up, outweighs the suffering of a man who is falsely accused and watches his accuser walk away annonymous and unpunished or is himself incarcerated or labled for life. Perhaps they are right, but I disagree. I like this blog, even when I sit silent I read it. I disagree often, but I like the tone and civility of it.
Jake,
Defining feminism as the fight for EQUAL rights and then saying that it is ok for feminists to ignore discrimination against men is hypocracy … you can do either or and I am fine with it, but if you do both I feel it is wrong. (general statement) I also dislike the propensity of so many to ping pong back and forth between equal under the law and equal outcome whenever it suits thier purpose. That goes out to BOTH sides of the argument. Pick one and argue it, but don’t stand behind equal legal status for one gender and equal results for the other…it makes you look dumb.
Q grrl and Sheelzebub,
I loved seeing your posts back to back and have to ask this question. If women are 52% of the population in a democracy, how do men have all the power? I know it is not one person saying it and I am not trying to lump it together, but you are both feminists right? Everything I have read recently says women control the majority of the wealth in the U.S. and have a majority of the buying power as consumers as well. They have a majority of the college graduates and they have a superior LEGAL status in relation to rights and responsibilties…meaning more or equal rights and less responsibilities. Also, if men are in power and men never help women…how did this situation arise? I almost hate to leave this last paragraph in because it is argumentative and I don’t want to start a fight… but I never understood the logic behind that stance and such an obvious contradiction.
Hopefully I can do this with no new concepts coming up.
Success! You have brought up absolutely no concepts that have not already been brought up and addressed. Just read through the various threads (many of them recent) and you’ll get the answers to your questions. Although, to be fair, I can tell you that you won’t be satisfied with any of them.
One last question for you… Do you criticize civil rights activists for not fighting discrimination agains whites in the USA? When a movement is advocating for equal rights for an oppressed group it is in no way obliged to advocate against discrimination against the dominant group. You’re just being silly.
Oh, and you totally ignored sentence #4 of my comment #17. Another concept (and ignoring of) that is not new. Hurrah!
Yes, Ed, the contradiction between Qgrrl’s comment and Sheezlbub’s comment is simply stunning. I mean, obviously women rule the country, given their thin majority within the population. This is why the majority of congress is female, as are the majority of presidents historically. It is also worth noting that the overwhelming majority of congress is made up of people who were members of the working classes at the time of their elections.
No wait…
Strangely enough, certain minority groups (WASPs, rich people, men) seem to do a pretty good job of protecting their interests in our political system.
Pay no attention to the majority of men in executive seats and corporate boards, Ed. Or the overwhelming majority of men in Congress, local and state political offices, and the judiciary. Pay no attention to that pesky wage gap (and don’t bring up any counterpoints until you bother reading Amp’s fisking of them–since we’ve heard it all before). So much for women controlling most of the wealth in this country.
They have a majority of the college graduates
Yet men are more heavily represented in positions of power and influence, and they make more.
and they have a superior LEGAL status in relation to rights and responsibilties…meaning more or equal rights and less responsibilities.
This is not true. If you are going to make such a statement, back it up–and don’t waste my time with any of these anti-feminist wingnut sites as “proof”.
Also, if men are in power and men never help women…how did this situation arise? I almost hate to leave this last paragraph in because it is argumentative and I don’t want to start a fight… but I never understood the logic behind that stance and such an obvious contradiction.
You said that feminists should help men. I pointed out that men, as a class, did not go out of their way to help women gain rights. Go on, look through history. There is no mass movement of men to liberate women (and I am not talking about a few sympathetic men who helped out–I am talking about men, as a class of people. The way you were talking about feminists, as a class of people). All of the rights we enjoy came through women’s work and women’s sacrifice. Way to completely dismiss yet another thing women have done.
While we’re at it, pay no attention to the many ways you’ve dismissed the suffering of female rape victims–you’d rather get raped while passed out since it’s not as big a deal as being sent to prison, checking for consent is oh-so-inconvenient and besides, we silly ladies don’t really want that, rape is “worse” for men because it makes them feel less manly (do you think it makes women feel womanly or great?? Jesus.)
Yes. Very dissmissive, very patronizing. Repeating the line that you’re not minimizing the rapes of women does not make it true.
Your ignorance of reality–and of history–is truly breathtaking.
I dunno Ed. Something like not even having had the right to vote for 100 year yet, or the right to an education, happens to have a slight damper on your social footing. That and the threat of rape and violence. That tends to be a wee bit o’ a damper too.
Or, for an even brighter light to shine on the subject: guys like you who simply refuse to *think* and expect women to spend all their time regurgitating history, well over a hundred years of feminist theory (you have read JS Mills, right?), and rape/dv statistics.
Do your own homework son. Read some Marx, some JS Mills, MacKinnon, Dworkin, hooks. Hell, read anything. But do it yourself.
While certainly a vivid story notice that your protagonist has essentially pulled his life back together within a year of the rape.
Now consider that Rape I in oregon (as an example) is an A10 felony meaning a minimum sentence of 100 months (just over 8 years).
What do you want to bet that at LEAST 8 years of life in prison is worse? Okay now add in the fact that the prisoner faces a very real probablity of being raped, repeatedly, violently, and with no recourse to any sort of counseling or justice. Of course he may get raped if lucky since sex offenders tend to be the most likely targets of inmate violence. He’s going to be one quick step away from a toe tag. For years.
Now add in that our hypothetical innocently accused man is a registered sex offender and even once he gets out will be followed the rest of his life by the conviction. His neighbors will be told that he is a rapist. He will never get a decent job. He will never ever get to pull his life together the way your protagonist did.
Yeah both situations suck incredibly. But the innocently accused is clearly far worse.
Tlaloc, you seem to be conflating false accusations with false convictions. Unless you have evidence indicating that 100% of false accusations lead to convictions and substantial prison time – even though that’s not true of the majority of rape reports made to police – that’s illogical.
I don’t think this point actually matters to this discussion – although it’s hard for me to be sure, because the discussion itself seems utterly pointless to me. But in general, I think more clarity of thought will be maintained if you could try not to conflate false accusations and false convictions, because the two things are not interchangeable.
Also, do you have evidence that rapists (as opposed to child molesters) are more likely to be murdered in prison? And how likely is that?
* * *
I agree. Generally, anyone (female or male) who is falsely convicted and spends years in prison, and is raped while in prison, is worse off than someone (female or male) who is raped but not falsely imprisoned, all else held equal.
Can you tell me why this matters so much to you? Why do you think this is a relevant comparison to make? What makes “proving” that people who are falsely convicted and then raped in prison suffer more than rape victims so important to you?
I also think that someone who has both arms hacked off with a machete and is raped is probably worse off than a typical rape victim. What I don’t understand is why anyone would find making these sorts of comparisons useful.
I really can’t see any point to playing “victimization Olympics,” but you don’t seem to have any other interest in this thread.
Tlaloc:
Ah, now we’re getting to what I believe is behind picking false accusations as worse than rape. For all the huffing and puffing about false accusations, I’ve had the feeling that this line of reasoning relates to true allegations of rape and how unfair the system is to non-monsterous convicted rapists.
It’s the POV that most rapes are so insignificant that any prison time is cruel and unusual punishment.
By this reasoning, the sentence for attempted murder should depend on how quickly our victim recovers. Sentences are about more than payback, they are about public safety. You don’t think the fictional woman in my example has only one victim, do you?
“Tlaloc, you seem to be conflating false accusations with false convictions.”
It is certainly true that not every accusation leads to conviction. Maybe I misunderstood the initial point. It would seem more fair to compare an accusation (without conviction) to the threat of rape, and a conviction to an actual rape. Maybe that’s just me.
” Also, do you have evidence that rapists (as opposed to child molesters) are more likely to be murdered in prison? And how likely is that?”
As opposed to child molestors? No. But as opposed to non-sexual crimes convicts? Yes I have seen studies that show it. I can try to find some if you like.
“Can you tell me why this matters so much to you? Why do you think this is a relevant comparison to make? What makes “proving” that people who are falsely convicted and then raped in prison suffer more than rape victims so important to you?”
What exactly is it that makes you think this matter is “so” important to me? I saw what would seem to be a unequal judgement and I tried to correct it.
“Ah, now we’re getting to what I believe is behind picking false accusations as worse than rape. For all the huffing and puffing about false accusations, I’ve had the feeling that this line of reasoning relates to true allegations of rape and how unfair the system is to non-monsterous convicted rapists.”
You misunderstood what I was saying, entirely. Especially since a given for the hypothetical was that the accused person was innocent. I have no problem with rape invovling a serious prison term.
I have a huge problem with an innocent person being put into that position.
I also have a problem with the state of our prisons where violence and inmate rape are accepted as a part of the punishment, but that is a tangential issue.
Jake,
No, I don’t criticize anyone for trying to rectify unfair situations, now here is the catch, that are unfair in my opinion as well. If I don’t feel they are unfair and they are trying to sway the balance, then of course that would lead to them being unfair (in my opinion) and I would have to criticize that. For some silly reason I feel that even as a man I have a right to my opinion, including one that contradicts the current feminist stance. Sentence 4 , unless I read it wrong, is that you blunt right back…I am glad to see it and have no problem with strong forthright answers.
As for the lesser legal responsibilities. This is mentioned so often it is simply ignored by the majority now. If you can give me a legal responsibility held by women and not by men I would like to hear it, as I never have, but I point to selective service as the inverse. I won’t go into reproductive rights or child abandonment laws because they are debateable based on biological differences. Registering for selective service, however, is not a shared responsibility in any sense.
No matter what I ever say about rape or my opinion of it severity I will be minimizing it in some peoples eyes. Even if I had been raped I would be wrong. The fact that I could see anything at all, even death, as dastardly and violating as being raped shows me for the insensitive uncaring individual I am. Nothing, no prison term, no physical pain, no lifelong stigma can compare. It is ok to minimize any and every other possible sort of suffering, and we should, except rape. (sorry for the sarcasm but the “you are minimizing rape victim suffering by having an opinion” argument is worn out with me)
I love the way priviledged groups get thrown in here. I am a working-class man myself. If it is the majority of the population we are talking about, I struggle to see the huge pay gaps in day to day life. Does wal-mart pay male greeters more? I spent quite a few years in the military and despite the lowered female standards they recieved equal pay…I am relatively certain that is standard for all federal and state jobs as well. Does Mcdonalds have a pay gap for it’s fry cooks? The last time you worked on the loading docks or on an assembly line…did men make more based on gender? I know they get regulated to the more physical tasks to help it run “smoother” but did they actually get paid more for it? It didn’t work that way in any union position I have ever seen. So you would have laws passed that clearly discriminate against a large majority of the male population to see a few priviledged individuals, who will probably have connections to get around such laws, punished. Now there is the very definition of fair and equal for you.
If you want females in politics, get involved and vote for them. Find a candidate you would like to see in office. Have them nominated and vote them into office. 4% is a small population difference, but it is more than enough to make a huge swing in who gets voted into office. But, please, for the good of everyone, find a candidate that is willing to lose without blaming her gender. I don’t think high ranking gov’t officials are a good yardstick to use to measure gender equality though. I doubt many feminists would argue how good the common women of the Philippines have it simply because they have had 2 female presidents.
For the record I want to see fair. I don’t think constantly legislating “good” discrimination is the way to get there. Fair is fair even when the roles are reversed. If you truly want fair and want a majority of the men to back you then work hard for fairness. Call it that, not women’s rights or feminism. Work to stamp out special female priviledge as hard as you do to stamp out male priviledge. Work as hard to stop the suffering of humans as a race as you do females as a gender. How can a man, any man, be anything but defensive when there is an attack around every corner.
I didn’t mean to get this involved in the discussion. I didn’t mean to get this far off track and appologize for that as well. I am going to go back to just reading and shaking my head sadly for a while. Amp, thanks for the blog. A2H, thanks for the interesting threads. To the rest of you, I hope you find a way to get what you want without taking unfairly from others. Thanks for the discussion.
Registering for selective service, however, is not a shared responsibility in any sense.
Again. Your ignorance is staggering. Men have to register for selective service–and women are barred from combat–because of opposition in Congress and the armed forces, both institutions which are overwhelmingly–male. Feminists either reject and actively oppose the notion of war (and the selective service by the way), or, in the case of some feminists, assert that women should register as well.
You brought up the more rights strawman. You back it up. You don’t get to bring this up and then say that you don’t feel like citing any stats or concrete examples of enshrined rights that women have and that men don’t.
As for voting for female candidates–another commentor covered this on this blog, and Amp answered it quite handily. I will point out to you, however, that when you’ve got the major political parties dominated and funded overwhelmingly by men, you are more likely to get male candidates.
Finally, I suggest you stop your finger-wagging and preaching at us about what we should fight for, and how we should fight for all human rights. Your own comments here show a woeful lack of empathy or compassion for what women go through–you throw up strawfeminists who have more rights than men, but cannot back up your claims and refuse to do so, you dismiss what female rape survivors endure and then pitch a fit when it’s pointed out to you, you show an ignorance of history that can be nothing more than willful when you cite oft-repeated, and oft-debunked myths to further dismiss the discrimination women face.
You weren’t told you dismissed female rape survivors because you have an opinion, and I suggest you stop your pissy, passive-aggressive temper tantrum. I see right through it, dear. You were taken to task for dismissing what female rape survivors went through because you said it was worse for men (since they are male, and it makes them feel less manly–infering that it’s natural for women to endure rape), that getting raped while passed out is no big deal, and that women really don’t want men to check for consent (again–thanks for telling us little ladies what we really want, you big strong man you!).
I am not going to fight your battles for you if you can’t be bothered to fight them yourself. You are not entitled to my time or energy–nor are you entitled to preach to me or anyone else about what we should be fighting for. What have you done, besides preach at feminists over your hangups about women, pull some classic tricks out of the passive-aggressive “debate” tactics book, and demonstrate your almost willful denial of reality?
Tlaloc:
Not only is it tangental, but the leap from the impact of rape on victims to concerns about prison diminishes both problems. If people want to address problems with the state of our prisons, that’s no more linked to the severity of rape than it is to the severity of armed robbery or identity theft.
Ed,
Yes you read the wrong sentence. Here is the sentence to which I referred (sentence number 4 from comment #17):
The feminist belief that ending discrimination against women will also function to end discrimination against men is far too complex (effects of patriarchy, gender roles, etc.), IMO, to deserve an in depth answer to such a stereotypically thoughtless statement.
The sentence you responded to was #5 & would have been a nonsensical thing for me to note that you ignored. But you knew that.
You seem to be saying that you see no way in which women are disprivileged in comparison to men. Willfull blindness is as willfull blindness does.
The problem is that although we can all agree that being raped and being falsely convicted of rape are both incredibly bad and traumatic, people who bring up false convictions often seem to imply that men suffer just as badly, if not worse, and therefore women should stop whining about rape. I don’t think there is good evidence that men suffer more, but even if they did that would not be a good reason to want to silence women. I don’t think false conviction and the fear of being falsely accused of rape are as much of a constant presence in men’s lives, as rape and the fear of rape are for many women. Statistics suggest that only about 1% of actual rapes result in a conviction. (20% reported, 5% of those reported result in a conviction.) Most convictions are not based on false accusations. Women have more to fear from rapists than men from false accusers. If we are interested in making society safer for women and men, rape and false accusations should both be eliminated. But pretending that rape is not far more common and doesn’t affect more people is not going to achieve that. I hope this makes some sense and is somewhat relevant to the discussion … I’m still thinking things over and reconsidering my views as well.
Ed:
In your blanket minimization of rape, you minimize the murder of alleged rape victims.