There’s a lot of negative response to this article in the blogosphere, mostly among Christian bloggers and some Mommybloggers. (And, of course, some Christian mommybloggers).
Sorry, but my children bore me to death!
by HELEN KIRWAN-TAYLOR, Daily Mail[…]To be honest, I spent much of the early years of my children’s lives in a workaholic frenzy because the thought of spending time with them was more stressful than any journalistic assignment I could imagine.
Kids are supposed to be fulfilling, life-changing, life-enhancing fun: why was my attitude towards them so different?
While all my girlfriends were dropping important careers and occupying their afternoons with cake baking, I was begging the nanny to stay on, at least until she had read my two a bedtime story. What kind of mother hates reading bedtime stories? A bad mother, that’s who, and a mother who is bored rigid by her children.
I know this is one of the last taboos of modern society. To admit that you, a mother of the new millennium, don’t find your offspring thoroughly fascinating and enjoyable at all times is a state of affairs very few women are prepared to admit. We feel ashamed, and unfit to be mothers.
In a post at Princesses, Dogs, and Chaos, Jenn responds:
The moment I find my children boring, the moment I don’t take joy in watching their explorations and moments of learning, the moment I choose self-fulfillment over milestones in my child’s life, will be a sad, wasted day in my life.
Amazingly, Jenn wrote the above sentence in a post entitled “Balance is Key.” (By the way, I find these passage from Jenn’s self-description terrifying: “I am a saved-by-grace wife and mommy who strives to do things that will bring honor to both my family and to God. However, with my strong will and sassy mouth, I consistently fail to meet those goals.” With all due respect to Jenn, I’d hate to think God opposes women having strong wills and sassy mouths.)
It’s not just bloggers; The “Daily Mail,” which published the column, received hundreds of letters catigating “bored mommy.” “I’m the most vilified woman in Britain because I don’t find it interesting to change nappies,” Kirwan-Taylor later commented.
Although Kirwan-Taylor (at least as she describes herself in this article) is extreme, she’s also right: A lot of parents find hanging out with the kids boring. It’s a lot of fun to play “ghost” with Sydney the first few times, but Sydney is apt to want to play the game 20 or 30 times in a row. When I was a small child, someone who obviously hated my parents gave me a Parcheesi(tm) set; I wanted to play it all the time, even though Parcheesi(tm) has been proved by astrophysicists to be an immense black hole of galaxy-sucking dullness.
A parent’s obligation is to provide their children with a loving home, and to see that their physical and emotional needs are met. There’s no obligation not to have a life outside your children, however. That seems to be Kirwan-Taylor’s central point, and it’s one I entirely agree with:
Those of us who are not thoroughly ‘child-centric’, meaning we don’t put our children’s guitar practice before our own ambitions, are made to feel guilty. We’re not meant to have an adult life — at least, not one that doesn’t include them.
My primary criticism of Kirwan-Taylor is that she imagines that she’s got the formula for creating great kids, and criticizes those parents who don’t follow her formula:
All us bored mothers can take comfort from the fact that our children may yet turn out to be more balanced than those who are love-bombed from the day they are born.
Research increasingly shows that child-centred parenting is creating a generation of narcissistic children who cannot function independently.
‘Their demand for external support is enormous,’ says Kati St Clair. ‘They enter the real world totally ill-prepared. You damage a child just as much by giving them extreme attention as you do by ignoring them altogether. Both are forms of abuse.’
Blah, blah, blah. Experts never tire of trying to micro-manage how parents raise their children. Short of abuse, however, I’m not convinced that one style of parenting is better than another. Children who are well loved and well cared for are more likely to turn out well, but there is no One True Best Style of Parenting, nor is there any approach to parenting that will suit all families well.
Finally, it’s impossible to ignore the class issues bound up in all this. It’s all very well for Kirwan-Taylor to rely on nannies to relieve her of boredom (does Daddy do a share of the child-rearing, I wonder), but obviously most parents can’t afford nannies. Unsurprisingly, a lot of the criticism heaped on Kirwan-Taylor has focused on the nanny aspect.
Mythago makes this very interesting point (in the comments at Happy Feminist):
It’s not true that mothers are never supposed to pretend that childhood is boring. Moms complain to each other about having to read Green Eggs and Ham for the 9,295,284th time.
BUT–that’s not the case if you are in a social class and community where overachieving genius babies are de rigeur, and the mark of a good mother is how fast your kid rips through the milestones. You can’t be bored in that milieu, because boredom suggests that your kid is boring, and therefore isn’t a superbaby. It’s not “boring” when your child learns to read, or appreciates Mozart, or learns to walk early. “Boring” is when your kid does the same, non-super-intellectual thing over and over again. And to admit that is to admit that your child may not be ahead of all the others.
And, of course, the sexism aspect – that this sort of pressure to pretend that every minute spent with one’s child is happy happy joy joy is far more intensely felt by mothers than fathers – is almost too self-evident to be worth mentioning.
UPDATE: Further commentary at Pandagon.
[Curtsy to Elizabeth at Family Scholars. Crossposted at Creative Destruction, where all children are sent to boarding school until age forty-four.]
Pingback: The Britgirl In Toronto
Pingback: BlogHer | Where the women bloggers are
Pingback: Crossroads
Pingback: philadaddy
Pingback: Persephone's Box
Pingback: 11D
Pingback: An Altered State of Consciousness
Pingback: feminist blogs
Pingback: The Listening Ear
Pingback: Pandagon
good post, Ampersand.
You know, women, we’re damned if we do and damned if we don’t. If we have kids, we are “bad moms” for a million and one different reasons, most of which have to do with having a smidgeon of a life that doesn’t include kids. If we don’t have kids, we’re insufficient as women, not “real” women, etc. If we have kids and stay home, we are criticized by other women and men for not contributing to the household income (the dollar is all that REALLY matters, after all). If we have kids and go back to work, we are criticized for not being there to “raise our children ourselves.” YUCK. Perhaps what Mythago is referring to with the superbabymama syndrome is a bit of moms who would otherwise be working at jobs they used to be relatively devoted to putting all that over-achieving energy into their kids and competing with other moms for superbabymama status instead of competing for raises and tenure and promotions? Just a thought…
I dunno about the whole thing. It isn’t exactly news that child care involves a great many boring things. But Kirwan-Taylor takes it to a pretty hefty extreme. She makes it sound like she’d rather NEVER spend time with her kids. No one ever said it should be fun to “change nappies”, but perhaps it might be pleasurable to watch your child perform in a dance recital (boring to watch the other kids, perhaps, but your own?). And it’s not like the things she’d rather be doing are any great intellectual endeavor: she’d rather be shoe-shopping, not reading Kant. Loving someone means that sometimes you do things that you might not do otherwise, and that you enjoy participating in their pleasure in it, even if it isn’t the most thrilling thing for you. She says she loves her kids, but it sounds like she isn’t willing to make the effort to sacrifice anything to demonstrate it. Love always involves sacrifice and compromise.
That article strikes me as a mixture of truth and plain weirdness. Caring for children is a procession of very repetitive tasks, and you’d need the attention span of a goldfish not to find yourself tuning out sometimes. And there is a pressure to keep up appearances, to pretend that you never felt this way: if I say how stressed I get having Andrea hanging off my hip because she won’t settle otherwise, I feel like I must immediately follow up by saying how much I love her and how much she’s enriched my life, lest anyone judge me as a bad mother.
But this woman sounds as if she never wants to be around her children, as if they never give her anything to balance the drudgery. And if that’s the case, why have kids in the first place? She drops hints that it’s a social status thing; is it the whole “You can’t be a proper woman unless you’re a mother” taken to its logical conclusion? That’s pretty sad, especially for the kids.
Also, I’m absolutely with you on the class thing. In her circle, parents who take their kids everywhere they go might be worthy of a raised eyebrow. In my case, it’s about not having the money for regular childcare, which means if Andrea can’t come with me, I can’t go at all.
(As an aside, this is why I get so frustrated by stories of mothers who put their children into nurseries so they can have plenty of time for what they want to do. That’s never going to be an option for me, much less for anyone further down the heap.)
I’m just not convinced that this writer is being anywhere near as transgressive as she thinks she is. While there probably are some Christian women (like the blog you quoted) who do believe that women must be fulfilled at all times by their children, I doubt this writer spends much of her time with them. The idea that kids are not the most fascinating thing in all the world is neither a tabboo or a revelation (Raising WEG covers this better than I could).
I’m really not sure I agree with what your identify as the central point:
She reads as if this is the persecuted choice in motherland – and it is other women’s fault. She refuses to contextualise it in a world where women are damned no matter what they do when it comes to parenting. I just don’t have time for that sort of shit – no matter if there’s a kernel of truth in what she says (there’s a kernel of truth in most women’s complaints about being devalued, but if you put other women down in the process of airing them then it’s completely understandable that people respond to that attack).
I wish you had quoted some of the feminist mothers who critiqued this article. As you say it has been discussed quite extensively, and not just by criticisms. The woman you do quote is hardly representative of all criticisms.
As soon as somebody says “are made to feel guilty” my BS detector guess off. Are people putting guilty pills in her coffee? (Yes, talk about social pressure, sexism and so on, but nobody ‘makes’ you feel guilt.)
thinking girl, I was referring more to a socioeconomic class than at-home mommies. Of course, in many wealthy circles, it’s a status symbol when the husband makes so much money that the wife can (at least temporarily) give up her fabulous job, although so is having a nanny. But in that culture, a ‘boring’ child is a child not doing new and above-the-curve things. It’s boring if your kid wants to play Candyland fifty times in a row; it’s not boring if she teaches herself Greek.
As soon as somebody says “are made to feel guilty” my BS detector guess off. Are people putting guilty pills in her coffee?
Gee, let’s talk about housework again.
I don’t mean to disappoint you, Robert, but even with housework, I’m capable of distinguishing between assholes who try to make you feel guilty, and claiming that one is actually “made to feel guilty”, as though somebody put a gun to your head and told you that you had five seconds to feel awful about yourself or they’d blow your brains out.
When I married I had an instant family with the kids out on their own. I never raised children so I have no experience and hence will not judgemental in any way. That being said, one observation on my part of kids who are mothered to death is that it seems an awful lot of them are insufferable brats.
I can understand the author of the article not liking children’s parties, but look at the other things she claims are “boring”:
She doesn’t like action/adventure movies, doesn’t like sports; shuns education; despises museums, crafting, baking, and games–in short, seems to have no hobbies of her own outside of shopping or having her hair done. I wonder what her writing is like. Do her characters only shop and do their hair? The article honestly leads me to believe that she thinks /everyone/–not just her children–is boring.
Nothing wrong with having your family do things for themselves or clean up after themselves. That happens in my home, too, but I don’t consider my family boring.
What troubles me most about this woman and her life is this entry: Attitude Adjustment, wherein Jenn learns from her mother (or possibly mother in law) that “if she’s not nicer to Jon (her husband), this is going to be her last pregnancy,” and it absolutely terrifies her, and she resolves to be sweeter, more caring, a better mommy, and nicer to the guy who won’t even feed their kid in the middle of the night.
It’s funny that there isn’t much discussion of this bit, because Arlie Hochschild nailed this years ago in The Time Bind. Many parents would much rather spend time at work than at home. That’s because most parents are overwhelmed by all the work they need to do at home that never gets done without a staff to do it.
What’s really amazing about this isn’t that she’s bored by her kids, it’s that someone who doesn’t even have to do the shit work of changing diapers is bored by her kids. How many million working parents are there in the world who think if only they had the time and the money, what fun they would have. Here’s someone who’s got both, and she’s still not happy.
Every parent has times when they’d like to be left alone: take a bath, read a book, do a little shopping “just for me.” What’s amazing is this woman saying there is nothing whatsoever she’d like to do with her kids. She’s not interested in helping them with their homework, in playing games with them, in going to movies with them, nothing.
You know, part of the problem with raising children – part of what can make it exceedingly tedious – is that deadly assumption that you don’t need to use your time efficiently if you’re watching kids; wasting one’s parenting time isn’t seen as the near-sin that wasting one’s work time is. Why the hell can’t a school tell parents exactly when their children’s classes will be performing in the Interminable Spring Concert, therefore allowing parents to just show up for those parts? Why do so many businesses that presumably are trying to attract people with children not have any way to entertain said children so the parents can actually shop?
Also, if a parent doesn’t enjoy spending time with his or her kids at all, perhaps the first thing that should be checked is whether the parent is suffering from depression, which can remove the enjoyment in nearly everything but especially in activities with no concrete renumeration.
Not to play armchair psychologist, but possibly she is suffering from depression. I don’t think this because she finds her kids boring, but because she finds EVERYTHING about her kids boring. As Kaethe said, “She’s not interested in … playing games with them, going to movies with them, nothing.”
To find the grunt work of parenting boring is actually a healthy sign of sanity in my book. I mean, honestly, the first diaper or two might feel exciting, but it’s SHIT people. Same goes for the extra dozen loads of laundry a week, the whining, the crying, the screaming, and most of all the endless pit of neediness that you feel like is going to suck up everything you used to be and leave you an empty shell (and it WILL if you don’t take some time to pursue things important to you.)
But I would say that not finding any part of parenting joyful strikes me as someone who is having bigger issues that not finding being a parent fulfilling. Even most people who would say they find kids irritating would enjoy SOME things with them. My personal experience with depression left me unable to deal with even the slightest irritations, which as you can imagine, led me to nearly despise my then 2 year old. Not because he was a bad kid, but because ALL 2 year olds spend at least half their waking hours doing irritating things, and mentally I simply couldn’t handle that. I’m still having issues in our relationship, partly because we lost alot of closeness while I was avoiding being with my own kid to keep from screaming at him (or my biggest fear, breaking into violence, which was why I just tried to stay away) and partly because I know I often spoil him out of guilt at all the stuff he got cheated out of – like the playdates we couldn’t go to, how I never gave him one-on-one time, etc.
I’m wondering if what she is doing, always having a nanny to watch her kids etc, is just what I was doing but with a lot more money (we went to the park ALOT, where I could sit on a bench and skim a book while he ran around and played with other kids. Also, grandma and grampa got a freaking lot of visits, and whenever my husband wasn’t at work, I would go out by myself just to get away.) I hope for her sake, it isn’t, but if it is, I really hope she can get some non-judgemental help.
I know I had trouble finding a therapist who didn’t seem to think that I must have been a terrible mother to begin with, that my biggest functional issue was dealing with my kid, but the truth was that once I got treatment, I completely fell in love with my son again, and it still hurts that I missed out on so much of his life.
This post reminds me of my first babysitter. I teach, and would often stay at school for an hour or so to get work done knowing full well that I wouldn’t be able to do it once I was home with the baby. She tore a strip off me once because I wasn’t at her door moments after the last bell. She was aghast that I’d stay longer than absolutely necessary.
Of course, once she finally had a baby of her own, for the first several months her mother took the baby at nights so she could sleep. She insisted it was necessary because, “How can I possibly be a good mommy on so little sleep?”
It is to laugh.
I think just as some of the over-the-top mommy bloggers (the ones who are only fulfilled by their children) set my teeth on edge, so did Helen’s article.
This article makes Helen come across as one of the most self-absorbed people I’ve ever witnessed. Maybe she’s really different in person, but the article is written in a very self-interested voice. Over-whelming your child might not be good parenting, but her level of detachment doesn’t seem like a good idea either. I’m more than slightly disturbed by her seeming unwilliness to participate in anything that her kids like, or their schooling, etc…. she’s not just complaining about the dirty stuff, she’s complaining about absolutely everything.
And the idea that her kids have “given up” on asking her to participate is I think rather telling.
Sure, reading stories, diaper changing, kids birthday parties, soccer games and elementary school math isn’t exciting. So what? I don’t feel that part of the job was falsely advertised to me. I knew it was a dirty job, I complain about it occasionally, but it’s part of the gig. No one expects me to be enthralled by it… that’s not mentally healthy. I’m really rather floored by the complaint of a child-centric culture, because that doesn’t fall under the realm of my experience.
But no one expects me to do *nothing* but complain about parenting, either… because that’s not mentally healthy either.
Maybe she’s depressed, maybe not. Maybe she’s selfish, maybe not.
Some people should not be parents. This simple fact is why having parenthood be the default choice in life is such a bad idea. Everyone suffers as a result.
My personal experience with depression left me unable to deal with even the slightest irritations, which as you can imagine, led me to nearly despise my then 2 year old. Not because he was a bad kid, but because ALL 2 year olds spend at least half their waking hours doing irritating things, and mentally I simply couldn’t handle that.
I’m trying to convince various people to take me seriously when I say I’m having problems coping (I haven’t yet summoned up the courage to use the D word). “I can’t handle it when she cries and whines,” I say. “Oh, it’s perfectly normal for babies to cry.” “I can’t manage to give her the attention she needs.” “She’s just at a stage where she needs a lot of attention.” And I usually end up thinking but not saying, “I KNOW this! I just CAN’T COPE! I’m a dreadful rotten mother and my daughter needs to be taken into care forthwith, because I CAN’T give her any more attention and I CAN’T come to terms with that god-awful whining.”
Sorry, but that’s just what your post made me think of.
anonymous today:
It’s common for people to ignore when someone’s having trouble coping. Depression comes in many forms and many degrees of severity. If at all possible, please seek out professional help-a psychologist who can determine your diagnosis and get you on the path to recovery. Please don’t suffer alone. Don’t let those around you just blow you off-get help. Your pain is real.
What spotted elephant says. Those people are doing the equivalent of stuffing their ears and saying “nananana, can’t hear you”. If your doctor isn’t an idiot, talk to him/her. If you use the magical words ‘postpartum depression’ that may galvanize some action. And if your child’s other parent is in the picture, time for him or her to take over more.
While I’ve never regretted my decision to remain child-free even after all these years, and therefore can empathize with the author’s boredom re:childish exploits, what I can’t accept is the author’s utter lack of concern for her children.
What on earth are her children going to think when they read this? It sounds as though she doesn’t love them at all, and is taking an almost maniacal, passive-aggressive glee in delinating exactly how much she doesn’t care about them.
Advocating a non-child-centric household is one thing, but spewing hatred disguised as “boredom” is straight out of _Mommy Dearest_.
Also please notice how old the photo is. The oldest kid is now 12, according to the article, but in the photo the oldest kid (she only had two kids) appears to be around 6yo. Perhaps it’s because the kids don’t want anything to do with her anymore, and that’s the most recent photo she has?
erm, i am childless and therefore know nothing, but to me kids are really boring. all of them. i get bored playing games with them, kids movies leave me cold, unless they are made in japan, and i think they are icky. so i get what she is saying. but then i am not going to have kids. but if my BF said that he would leave me if we did not have kids – you know i might have them to make him happy.
all of you guys seem to be criticising her for the very things she mentions in the article, and are sort of making her point. it is not ok for someone to find their kids boring – you even decide that she is depressed on the evidence that she finds her kids boring – erm does this not remind anyone of medicalising women who do not feel ‘femimine’? i.e. women expresses something not in line with societies view of women – so she must be crazy.
With all due respect to Jenn, I’d hate to think God opposes women having strong wills and sassy mouths.)
I don’t think He does, either, at least not in and of themselves.
Laura, ‘crazy’ is disliking all children but being willing to have them to please a boyfriend.
I mentioned depression as a possibility. If someone has children, on purpose, and doesn’t find them interesting at all, in any context, and wants nothing to do with them, the possibility of depression should at least be considered before the parent in question gives up on parenting completely. It’s normal for a parent to find their children occasionally difficult; it’s not normal for a parent to find no interest at all in their children.
Anonymous today, sympathies. It doesn’t help that when one is depressed one is less capable of being forceful about one’s own needs, and yet that is what is needed to get it across to people that it’s not just a matter of being tired and frustrated. I remember times that I would have handed the baby over to just any random person if they would take it away so I didn’t have to deal with it any more. Looking back, I had postpartum depression with that child on top of my regular depression, and that was a bad way to start out with him. I hope you can find someone to listen to you. It sucks, I know.
Mrs. Coulter Wrote: Love always involves sacrifice and compromise.
Are men told this?
if you truly believe that love involves sacrifice, than I think you’ve got a fucked up idea of love
How can something be love which does not entail sacrifice?
Interests conflict; they always do. She wants to veg out and play Eve alone. I want to watch a show and cuddle. Someone has to give something up – and they give it up for the sake of the love they share with the other person.
To put it another way, if I love her but am not willing to give up anything of my own for her, then what significance does my love have? Do I murmur about fond feelings for her, while I ignore her desires and just proceed with my own life?
It’s tough sometimes to tell where compromise leaves off and sacrifice begins. I think it gets tougher the longer you’re in a relationship, too, because there’s more potential for the sort of life-changing events that make hard decisions inevitable.
Though for purely selfish reasons, I’ll be much happier if your partner moves here. :D
Bean-
I didn’t say that she WAS depressed, I suggested that it was a possibility, based on my own experiences. To quote:
“To find the grunt work of parenting boring is actually a healthy sign of sanity in my book. I mean, honestly, the first diaper or two might feel exciting, but it’s SHIT people. Same goes for the extra dozen loads of laundry a week, the whining, the crying, the screaming, and most of all the endless pit of neediness that you feel like is going to suck up everything you used to be and leave you an empty shell (and it WILL if you don’t take some time to pursue things important to you.)
But I would say that not finding any part of parenting joyful strikes me as someone who is having bigger issues that not finding being a parent fulfilling.”
I apologize if I misread the article, but the feelings she was describing were the same ones I was feeling when I was experiencing my depression, and if you had asked me at the time, I would have told you I just couldn’t stand kids. After treatment for the underlying cause, of course I still sometimes get irritated with my kid like any normal human being does, but I don’t constantly spend my time finding ways to avoid being with him. The thing is, I didn’t realize that I was suffering from depression, because my symptoms fit the mold of “bad mother,” NOT “sad, tired, depressed mother.”
G Bitch: I don’t know about other men, but my husband hears it plenty.
I’m not talking about throwing yourself on your sword martyrdom. I’m talking about everything from “I feel like Mexican but you want Thai” to “I’m OK with cutting our income in half so you can go back to school” to “OK, let’s move cross-country for your job.” Some sacrifices are really big, some are small, and some are in between.
If you think that a successful relationship never involves compromise and sacrifice, you’ve probably never had a successful relationship. The hard part is making sure that it isn’t one party who is doing all the compromising and sacrificing.
Oh, and in any case, I thought we were talking about relationships with children, who aren’t exactly models of other-regarding behavior, though part of a parent’s job is to teach them other-regarding behavior. Raising a child is a life of non-stop compromise and sacrifice, for both parents (ideally shared as evenly as possible). If you think your life is going to stay exactly the same after you have a child, you are seriously deluded, or you have a very large household staff.
Bean: I’m not sure what your definition of compromise vs. sacrifice is. When I went back to school, we cut our income in half. There is plenty of compromise when you decide to cut your income in half, but there is also a hell of a lot of sacrifice. We both gave things up (a lot of things) that we wanted, postponed things that we wanted, and made major adjustments to our lifestyle. And damn it, I was really craving spring rolls. A burrito just won’t cut it. Deciding to eat Mexican tonight and Thai tomorrow is a compromise, but it also a sacrifice because I am giving up what I want RIGHT NOW and I can never get that back.
Robert has it right: in a relationship interests always conflict, and eventually one or both of you will have to to give something up to make it work or it will end because of an irresolvable conflict of some sort. In a way, we got very lucky–when my husband was offered a job in another state, I was laid off and unemployed and having no luck in my job search (damn tech bubble). We didn’t have to negotiate and soul search about what to do (my job vs. his), because I had no job and I was eager to get the hell out of dodge in search of a more favorable job market. So there was some sacrifice on my part (leaving close friends and family to go to a new city), but that was sacrifice that I was OK with.
I hope you don’t take this to personally, but eventually you and your partner *are* going to have to make a decision about what to do (unless you are content to maintain a long-distance relationship indefinitely–which, I know from experience, is itself a sacrifice), and there is the distinct possibility of some sacrifice. Right now it sounds like you are willing to chose a job over your partner, which is a perfectly valid choice, but you are sacrificing life together with your partner for a job. Hopefully you will have the good fortune to be able to find employment in the same city, which will make the sacrifices much less, but then again you might not.
In any case, this was originally about relationships with children. I take it from your comments that you don’t have a child (I apologize for the assumption if its incorrect), but you don’t compromise with a toddler, except on very small things. The big things are all sacrifice. Trust me on this one.
My children do not bore me to death, because, simply, my husband and I decided very consciously not to have any. We didn’t want any. I’m childfree by choice. While I respect parents their right to have children (boring or otherwise) those same parents seem to have great difficulty in accepting and respecting my choice to be childfree. Some even reject the notion that women have a choice at all. Many parents are positively hostile to childfree people.
The negativity that childfree or non-parents receive from the childed is often unbelievable. “But WHY don’t you have kids?” they persist. You must hate them, you missing out, you’re abnormal…” and on it goes. In an attempt to get to “the Reason Why She Doesn’t Have Kids” they pry and seem to think it’s o.k to ask questions that they wouldn’t dream of asking a parent. And of course they feel perfectly entitled to inflict their children
( or the effects of their childdren) on anyone and everyone, then feel agreived because we don’t like it.
Because being childfree (and loving it) is an aspect of my life, I’ve blogged about many of these flawed assumptions on my blog Like It Is.
So if anyone feels they are being villified for calling their children boring – just try being childfree in a pro-natalist society such as ours, and more, telling people (parents and parents in waiting) about it.
Good on you Britgirl for living your life the way you want. I have never been able to understand why, when someone chooses not to have children, they are called selfish and self-absorbed. In my opinion it is more selfish to bring a child into the world that is not truly wanted.
I have three grown sons who every day of their lives have been told how much they are loved, they have grown into well adjusted, independent young men but just because i loved having kids is no reason for others to feel pressured into doing the same.
Rusty, thank you.
I wish more parents responded and reponded like you, believe me, it would be wonderful. We could all get along instead of having the gulf that I feel exists between parents and non-parents, with childfree people (both men and women, but especially women) feeling compelled to defend their choice every day of their lives.
So if anyone feels they are being villified for calling their children boring – just try being childfree in a pro-natalist society such as ours, and more, telling people (parents and parents in waiting) about it.
I guess that depends on how you’re ‘telling people about it’. If you’re simply being childfree and saying that no, you don’t want kids, that’s a whole different approach than mocking your friends who are parents or sneering openly at “breeders”, or announcing it like a challenge when people mention their own kids.
mythago:
Well, I find that evangelists in general are no fun to be around no matter what they’re pitching. What always freaks me out is when someone asks, “How many kids do you have ?” Not, “Do you have any kids ?” It’s definitely tempting to say something rude and cutting to the former, because of the presumption that of course every proper woman of a certain age must have a kid. And if not, she’d better have some damn good reason/excuse that she must share with the questioner, even if the latter is a total stranger. Bah.
because of the presumption that of course every proper woman of a certain age must have a kid
Let alone the ignorance of saying such a thing to people who are having fertility problems, or who have lost a child. I suppose you could respond to them with a hollow-eyed look and “Do you mean, living children?”
Damn. Can’t argue with that, either. Now I feel like my whole day’s been wasted. :p I’ll be back tomorrow when I’m in a more combative mood.
Is there anyone who doesn’t find their kids, their spouses, their jobs, their families, friends, and even occasionally, themselves, boring?
I guess it’s a matter of degree.
There are a lot of people who find taking care of young children very boring, but who love hanging out with their older kids. OTOH, there are many people who seem to believe that raising children requires a child-centric approach that is mutually exclusive with doing anything interesting on their own — the “must go to Disney World and indulge every child idiocy including mind numbing video games and can’t ever go to museums or Europe” approach to life. This is an approach that is widely lauded by game makers and Disney and all of their collective affiliates, and it does tend to produce boring people. It’s up to the author to carve out something different from her life and her children’s lives.
“I guess that depends on how you’re ‘telling people about it’. If you’re simply being childfree and saying that no, you don’t want kids, that’s a whole different approach than mocking your friends who are parents or sneering openly at “breeders”, or announcing it like a challenge when people mention their own kids.”
Actually, it has nothing to do with how you’re “telling people about it”. It has to do with society’s (read many parents) biased and entrenched attitudes and often ignorance. Whether you are “simply being childfree” (whatever that means) makes no difference to the childed attitude (which comes across rather like yours by the way). And as for mocking and sneering – well that’s what childfree get from parents – unsolicited and in bucketloads. Many of my friends are parents, many childfree people have friends who are parents. No big deal. They respect our choice as we do theirs. There is no issue with them, and like-minded people.
But some parents who are complete strangers, who know nothing of a childfree person’s life seeem to have no trouble prying, asking, making assumptions and subjecting their childfree counterparts to little short of an inquisition once they find out they intend to remain childfree. In short, displaying their ignorance and quite often a breaktaking viciousness.
Whether people decide to take what I say as a challenge is their business not mine. I am happy to be childfree and am not prepared to hide it to satisfy those who may not agree with it. My business is to live my live in the way I choose, in spite of opposition of others who for some reason feel aggrieved because I’ve failed to validate the choices they themselves have made.
There is no shortage of people announcing their own kids to the world at large… and, just as parents do, (and you are surely not suggesting that parents inquire as to whether someone has lost a child or is infertile first??! – because that WOULD be a first) childfree people have that same right to announce that they are childfree should they so wish. They are entitled to respect for their choice – in exactly the way parents are.
Britgirl,
You are right. I am a parent by choice, and I generally do not go around showing the pictures of my children to those that don’t have children. I fully respect your choice to remain free, and would never inquire as to the reasons for that choice. I am a parent and I am subjected to all sorts of rude questions by total strangers about my marital status and my parenting skills. This often comes from the married and childed and those that aren’t.
Your choice is as valid as mine, and your life should be what you make of it and not what others would have you make of it.
Thanks Mendy.
As I said in response to Rusty, would that all parents were like you… they are not though. You are in the minority. I feel it’s unacceptable for anyone to be subjected to rude hurtful assumptions – by anyone. While we can comment on or be irritated by things we as people do (and we can think of many of these), we should still respect and accept one another’s choices, whether parent or non-parent.
Because I happen to know so many parents, I inevitably get involved in some way with their children – and I am o.k with that – they are part of their lives and no way would I dream of preventing them from talking about them – in fact I always ask after the children, comment on their photos etc. I know by doing this that it encourages parents to to talk about them but they love doing it and since they are my friends and my colleagues, I accept it comes with the territory. And besides, I don’t dislike children. The difference is that because they know I am childfree they don’t go on at length. We have an understanding and it works. Mutual respect.
I reserve the right however, to absent myself from baby and kiddie gatherings, maternity leave send offs, baby showers, ultrasound scan viewings, baby just born gatherings, baby is now two and can walk gatherings, and other intensely child focused activities and places as much as I can.
They do nothing for me . Sometimes even that is hard because people take offence and worse, take it personally. They seem unable to understand that because it is great for them it isn’t necessarily of interest to me. After years of going along for a quiet life and not to hurt feelings I decided I was tired of having to conform to everyone else’s norm and my feelings mattered more.
Unfortunately no matter where one looks, the overall message both subtle and overt from society to women and sadly from a lot of women to other women, is that unless you are a mother, your life is at worst one big zero – or at best somewhat lacking. The pressure on women to have children “because it’s the thing to do” is immense, so childfree women and men are swimming against an immense tide. Unsurprisingly, society’s message is one that I’ve rejected.
Unfortunately no matter where one looks, the overall message both subtle and overt from society to women and sadly from a lot of women to other women, is that unless you are a mother, your life is at worst one big zero – or at best somewhat lacking. The pressure on women to have children “because it’s the thing to do” is immense,..
I have avoided this. My response to people who ask why I am not married with children is always that I am taking care of my elderly parents. It turns out that this an acceptable alternative. As long as “I” as a female are considered to be doing work, unpaid, that is nurturing in some fashion, I am an acceptable woman. Just telling folks I don’t want kids and never did always got criticism and assurances that I would make a wonderful mother and that that I really needed to have kids. It seems it would make me a better person. But caretaking the elderly is almost as good.
And oddly enough, it is women who try and make me feel bad for not having kids. But those same women cut me slack because I take care of my parents.
They do nothing for me . Sometimes even that is hard because people take offence and worse, take it personally. They seem unable to understand that because it is great for them it isn’t necessarily of interest to me.
Er, if you tell people, in essence, that important milestones in their lives are unimportant and uninteresting to you, yeah, they will take it personally. It’s one thing to avoid baby showers because you don’t really know the expectant parents well. But would you really tell a friend “You know, cake and presents don’t interest me. I don’t want to come celebrate your birthday. Why are you taking this personally?”
Actually, it has nothing to do with how you’re “telling people about it”.
Actually, it does. Of course there are rude people who feel it is their business to tell everyone else how to live their lives, and there’s nothing at all you can say to them other than to take a hike. But do you really see no difference between telling a parent “I’m childfree” or “I don’t want to be a parent” vs. “I’m too smart to be a breeder, thanks” or “Good grief, the world is overpopulated enough.”
I’d bet money that an awful lot of the rude, intrusive parents you meet were at one point rude, intrusive childfree people. You don’t become an asshole by giving birth, and you don’t stop becoming an asshole by giving birth, either.
Britgirl, since you are childfree you are rightly focused on the kinds of clueless inquisition that is directed at your status. You may be unaware that many of us with children are also tormented by, very likely, the same people, except that they focus on the fact that we don’t stay at home with our children 24/7. My husband, especially, seems to take a lot of grief for my career. They probably know better than to say anything to my face. I am not nice about it.
They have an ideal that neither you nor I fit into. Naturally, it’s annoying, just thought I’d share that the rest of us are often putting up with the same revolting people, whose philosophy seems to be: “How dare you live your life other than according to my plan.”
But as for people always asking about children — that’s easy, it’s more interesting and usually safer than asking about what they do for a living. It’s just an easy way to make conversation. My second favorite topic is their upcoming or most recent vacation and/or holiday plans.
@mythago – since you use the word “breeder” so much, be my guest.
“if you tell people, in essence, that important milestones in their lives are unimportant and uninteresting to you, yeah, they will take it personally. It’s one thing to avoid baby showers because you don’t really know the expectant parents well. But would you really tell a friend “You know, cake and presents don’t interest me. I don’t want to come celebrate your birthday. Why are you taking this personally?”
Yes.
“Actually, it does.”
Actually – it does not.
“I’d bet money that an awful lot of the rude, intrusive parents you meet were at one point rude, intrusive childfree people.”
There’s a sucker born every minute.
@Barbara – thanks for sharing that and well said.
And if you stayed home 24/7, I’m sure the same people would see to it that you are labelled A Less Than Good Person – for being at home with your children and “not contributing to the economy”.
Now that you mention it, I remember reading a thread on a well known news site some time ago about childcare (or rather the lack thereof). I remember how shocked I was at how critical women who had chosen to stay home with their children were of other women who were working and bringing up children at the same time. Apparently, women with children who worked were simply Bad People who weren’t fit to be parents. And if they dared mention they wanted or even worse said they loved their career…the Big Guns were poised to take aim. It was bizarre.
Even the men had to remark that some of the excahnge was unhelpful… why couldn’t people just be accepting and supporting of other’s choices, even though they may be different? So much for supportive women. As you say, they seem to find it impossible to countenance anyone living in way that isn’t in accordance with their philosophy. How very sad.
As you say, they seem to find it impossible to countenance anyone living in way that isn’t in accordance with their philosophy.
Alas, not a human failing limited to women, or to any particular subgroup.
@mousehounde
“As long as “I” as a female are considered to be doing work, unpaid, that is nurturing in some fashion, I am an acceptable woman. Just telling folks I don’t want kids and never did always got criticism and assurances that I would make a wonderful mother and that that I really needed to have kids. It seems it would make me a better person. But caretaking the elderly is almost as good”.
I never thought of that one! Almost as good. What can I say? You are bang on. To be acceptable as a female in this society one must be seen to be nuturing, caring and prepared to empty self of self for kids – whether one wants them or not. These are the rules.
Wish you didn’t have to do that, (and I refuse to play by the rules, )but we are all different and knowing the constant barrage of criticsism you must have got – I can understand your approach. The assurances that you really need to have kids are almost as bad – I get those too – particularly when you know there is an underlying judgement lurking just below the surface.
Britgirl said:
Wish you didn’t have to do that, (and I refuse to play by the rules, )but we are all different and knowing the constant barrage of criticsism you must have got – I can understand your approach.
I have given the wrong impression. Sorry. I have spent the last 12 years taking care of my parents. First helping my mother care for my father, now I take care of mom. But I never wanted kids. Any time I just said that I always got comments ranging along the lines of that I didn’t know what I was missing, that if I had kids I would understand, that if I just got myself a good man I would change my mind, to that they were sorry for poor little me missing out. It used to piss me off because it happened so often. “How old are you dear? Shouldn’t you think about finding a husband and starting a family? Clock is ticking you know”. It did not occur to me to tell folks I was caretaking the elderly, it was my mom’s idea. Turned out she was a bit more in tune with how folks thought than I was. Now when folks make rude comments about my lack children, I look at them all solemn and say I am taking care of my mom. If they really annoy me, I go into detail about mom’s health. Shuts them right up. It is OK to be childless as long as you are doing something else that takes all your time and energy and that you also don’t get paid for. Older folks do a complete turnaround, I go from being a selfish, childless woman to being a kind, giving woman who will be blessed. Younger folks boggle at the thought of having to take care of their parents and just shut up.
And how odd is it that women get grief for putting their time and energy into things they get paid for, like work. But they get pats on the head for putting the same time and energy into work they don’t get paid for, like children and caring for ones elder relatives?
Yes.
So your problem isn’t with parents, it’s with people who think that if you care about them, you will occasionally think about what matters to them rather than just you. Gotcha.
Even the men had to remark that some of the excahnge was unhelpful
O, irony!
But seriously, of course the men make those remarks. They’re happy and smug–nobody’s ragging their asses about not wanting to have kids, and nobody’s scolding them for being at home or not.
It is OK to be childless as long as you are doing something else that takes all your time and energy and that you also don’t get paid for.
Well, yeah. This is pretty much the standard for being considered an adult human, or part of it. Although it doesn’t have to take all of your time.
What’s the problem?
This is pretty much the standard for being considered an adult human, or part of it.
Not following, Robert. The notion that women should be caregivers above all else is not one placed on men, who are supposed to devote their life to paid work.
Robert said:
So I could do anything I don’t get paid for that takes most of my time and energy and still not get grief from the pro kids folk? Cool! I want to spend my time learning to fly. Light planes, gyro-planes, hang gliders, parachuting. Somehow I don’t think I would get the same approval from the pro kid leagues if I gave that as my reason for not having kids.
The notion that women should be caregivers above all else is not one placed on men, who are supposed to devote their life to paid work.
Women can be caregivers, among other things, as can men. “Caregiver” isn’t what’s expected. What’s expected is “as long as you are doing something [seriously substantive] that takes time and energy and that you don’t get paid for”. Caregiving qualifies. Putting your life on the line for community or country qualifies. Mentoring lots of young people qualifies. Running Sunday Schools or Scout troops qualifies. Putting in good parenting qualifies. Creating soup kitchens qualifies.
Lots of things qualify.
Lots of people don’t live up to what they ought, but the expectation is still there. Dangly bits or crevice, makes no difference; this is (a big chunk of) what makes you an adult, or not. In the interests of not overly valorizing natalism (though I can think of few better things to valorize), people perhaps ought to ask “when are you going to grow up, dear?” instead of “so, are you going to have children soon?” – but that would be considered very blunt in many social circles. I observe/acknowledge there is some sexist bias in HOW the question is phrased to men and women alike – but the question is there for everyone, and is a question with weight and merit behind it.
Robert, asking a woman why she isn’t a mother yet is not really the same as asking “Are you doing something socially meaningful with your life?” Caregiving is supposed to be a woman’s primary occupation, not merely something she does as a volunteer sideline.
Caregiving is supposed to be a woman’s primary occupation, not merely something she does as a volunteer sideline.
Well, I suppose that’s objectionable, to the extent that a woman who says “I’m going to do something else for the world than that” is stopped from pursuing her goals.
But what do other people’s suppositions have to do with my (or her) power, or lack thereof? “I wanted to cure cancer instead…sniff…but the mean people expected me to have babies instead.” So sad, having all those mean people with their evil thoughts.
If she doesn’t have the gonads to tell Aunt Nosy to fuck off, she certainly doesn’t have the gonads to cure cancer.
@Robert
“Well, I suppose that’s objectionable, to the extent that a woman who says “I’m going to do something else for the world than that” is stopped from pursuing her goals.”
It is objectionable. But the woman does not have to allow others to stop her, either from making a choice that suits her, articulating it or living it. She has complete control there – but only if she chooses to exercise it.
“If she doesn’t have the gonads to tell Aunt Nosy to fuck off, she certainly doesn’t have the gonads to cure cancer”.
True. Whatever you do, someone is going to be displeased so you might as well please yourself.
@mousehound –
Thanks for clarifying…even so, IMO you shouldn’t have to use looking after your parents as a way to shut the nosey parkers up.
“Any time I just said that I always got comments ranging along the lines of that I didn’t know what I was missing, that if I had kids I would understand, that if I just got myself a good man I would change my mind, to that they were sorry for poor little me missing out. It used to piss me off because it happened so often”.
Yep. Know exactly what you mean. So well in fact that I’ve covered most,if not all of them on my blog Like It Is. If you’re interested, have a read under ” Childfree? Oh, you’ll change your mind”. And if there are any I’ve missed, just add them.
“And how odd is it that women get grief for putting their time and energy into things they get paid for, like work. But they get pats on the head for putting the same time and energy into work they don’t get paid for, like children and caring for ones elder relatives?”
It is. I think it’s called the woman “knowing her place.”
Gonads can be ovaries or testes. That’s why I said “gonads” instead of “balls”. ;)
Robert is correct about the meaning of “gonad”, but even if he had said “balls” I don’t think bean would have been correct. A woman who, for some reason develops one or more testes in addition to (or instead of oneof) her ovaries would not necessarily be precluded from bearing children provided that she is genetically female, and the remainder of her (female) reproductive system is present and in working order.
I suppose even without ovaries, a woman could bear an IVF conceived child from a donor ovum.
Pingback: Like It Is : My Children Do Not Bore Me To Death!
OH, for god’s sake. It goes in waves. Some days/weeks I adore my kids & husband, and can think of nothing more than making the perfect dinner and making the house look spectacular and having a fire and sitting around feeling cozy and visiting. Then there are others, like today/this week, when they bore the living shit out of me and all I can think of is getting on the freeway, driving until I run out of gas and then just run away. no one EVER warned me ahead of time how utterly, devastatingly boring motherhood could be.