Someone left an anonymous spam comment on my post “Duke Rape Case: The Danger Of Screaming No Rape” on my home blog and I rejected the comment since it repeats many myths and distortions about allegations about rape, and those who report being raped.
However, for the same reason I rejected it, this comment is worth analyzing. First, I know it was a spam comment because I’ve seen variations of this comment before. From reading the full comment, I believe this anonymous person is male and therefore will refer to him as a he.
I find it telling that he posted as anonymous rather than giving his name. He’s willing to make accusations, but isn’t willing to take ownership of those accusations or his personal motivation. Ironic considering his condemnation of false accusations.
Here’s the opening:
False accusations of rape destroys lives (Whether accidental or malicious)
This is an allegation rather than a fact which in many cases are clearly false (Tucker Carlson was falsely accused of rape and his life wasn’t destroyed) and it manages to slip in the idea that many girls and women who say they’ve been raped are delusional. He isn’t saying that false allegations can destroy lives and that omission of the word can is not by chance.
By the recommendations made later in this comment (which will be included in part 3), the commenter is willing to destroy the lives of rape victims to help men avoid being convicted of rape.
Rape is a horrible crime, and anyone who commits it should be punished to the full extent of the law.
Here we get the standard disclaimer given by all those who attack rape victims — alleged and proven — meant to give the person a free pass to recommend changes that help rapists avoid being punished to the full extent of the law and which harm real rape victims.
This is a very hot and emotional topic, but we must not get so emotional that we lose our objectivity, and create laws that condemn the falsely accused.
Here we get the implication that anyone who disagrees with him has lost objectivity and that he is being purely objective (not a rapist or anyone who was ever or could ever be accused of rape) and nothing he does harms or condemns real rape victims.
His implication is that detachment from the pain of rape is good. Viscerally understanding rape and caring passionately about justice for rape victims is bad and should exclude people from talking about rape laws and the enforcement of those laws.
Once the accusation is made, the “accused” is assumed to be guilty by just referring to the “accuser” as a “victim”, and not as an “alleged-victim.” This attitude colors the public’s, police, and juror’s perception as “victim” versus “the accused”; thus implies guilt.
I find it interesting in this claim about the power of semantics that he says calling someone a victim is wrong while leading with the word “accusation” rather “a report of rape.” We are supposed to use “alleged victim” but he uses “accuser” which has definite negative connotations and implies her guilt.
The bottom line seems to be that word choice can be used to color perception, but only when it favors the defendant at the expense of rape victims or alleged rape victims.
Part 2 will include an analysis of his statements about the number of false rape reports and part 3 will include an analysis of his positions on rape trials.
(crossposted at my blog, Abyss2hope)
Note: Comments are limited to feminists or those who can be respectful of feminists and their efforts to fight sexual exploitation. If you want to excuse or minimize the behavior of those who harm others, make the person exploited responsible for their own exploitation, call those who label their experiences rape liars, or tell us that we should be focusing on more important issues, please do so elsewhere.
When someone reports a crime, it’s generally taken at face value. When someone reports a robbery, they are refered to as the victim, and we don’t refer to “the allegede robbery” or the “allegede victim”. The same can be said about murders, where calling the victim “the accuser” would clearly be absurb.
Why should we speak about it differently, when we’re talking about rape cases?
And don’t people understand that it’s the state that makes the accusations? Not the victim? (that’s why I brought up murder cases)
well one difference is that in rape cases, especially aquaintance rape, the case is more likely to turn on whether or not the crime occured rather than the identity of the perpetrator. Meaning, someone can be a victim of a robbery at the same itme that the suspect can be innocent, but if the rape victim can name her perpetrator, its less likely that she can both be a victim of that rape and that the police have the wrong guy.
There was a case in England several years ago (I could look it up, but it would take a lot of effort) in which it is was undisputed at the trial that the victim had been raped, and she testified that the accused (who was known to her) was not her rapist.
He was nevertheless convicted on the strength of DNA evidence, and later acquitted on appeal (after serving time in prison) when that evidence was shown to be faulty.
Was the defendant in this case accused by anyone? If not, how come he ended up in the dock?
If so, was he falsely accused? If not, in what way was the accusation true?
If so, then who was his false accuser?
I once put these questions to one of these “false rape accusation” nutjobs. He never replied.
I agree that “accuser” is an extremely loaded term, and I avoid using it whenever I can. I routinely use “complainant” or “alledged victim”, but these are problematic too. “Complainant” plays to the stereotype of a whining woman, while “alleged victim” is inappropriate when the viewpoint is the alleged victim herself.
I don’t have a good solution to the problem, but I’m willing to consider suggestions.
The first part of that is almost redundant. It is impossible for a “rape victim” not to be a “victim of rape”. If a “rape victim” can name her “perpetrator”, the only way the police could get the “wrong guy” is by arresting someone other than the person she named. (I noticed you actually said “victim of that rape”, but I’m not sure how this changes anything.)
Or did you mean to say that if an alleged rape victim names an individual as her rapist, then it’s less likely that she can both be a victim of that rape and that the police have the wrong guy?
Less likely, yes, but not impossible. Also complainants frequently identify suspects without naming them, for example from photos or line-ups. Mistaken identity by both police, alleged victim, and other witnesses is a significant factor in false convictions.
Daran:
I don’t think people like anonymous really care about the answers to these questions. Complexity of issues detracts from the rhetoric of false rape accusations.
To realize how delightfully absurd this argument is, I like to replace “rape” with “murder”. Murder is a terrible crime and ought to be decried, but I think we should stop referring to “victims” of murder, but rather “alleged victims” of murder. And furthermore, until a trial establishes guilt, we must never assume guilt. Kinda like how John Wilkes Boothe never was tried for assassinating Lincoln, thus we must assume Boothe is innocent, ergo Lincoln is still alive.
Most victim’s in murder trials are generally not the accuser and thus the comparison is invalid (them being dead is generally an impediment to an accusation). From the point of many cases we have the plaintiff and the defendant (at least in the UK) not victim/accuser and rapist/accused which is a lot more neutral and less loaded on both sides of the equation, using loaded words is a bad thing to do in any case since it does imply the reader should draw a particular conclusion based on the wording rather than pure facts, look at most of the “red top” newspapers, cunning wording and vague details can make almost any point they want irrespective of the actual truth (and is mostly legal since they rarely actually libel).
Also in cases like Wilkes Boothe (if my sketchy history of the US is correct) we had witnesses to prove that he did it, I will go out on a limb and say that most rape cases don’t have witnesses again making the comparison invalid.
Well done, Abyss2Hope.
There’s no general objection to talking about victims of murder, rape, or even of false accusations. (I talk about rape victims here, for example, with not an “alleged” in sight.) Nor is there a problem with talking about their murderers, rapists, and false accusers. The problem arises when we talk about rapists, victims, etc., in a context and from a viewpoint where it it not known or established that this is what they are. For example:
Contrast:
which is OK because that really is the intent. The effect, on the other hand, is to protect complainants whether or not they are victims.
Similar problems arise in specific cases where it has been alleged that one of these crimes has been committed, and we use language that assumes the very point at issue. For example, there are serious questions about whether the alleged rape at the Duke frat house even happened. Yet we rightly object to the alleged victim being branded a “false accuser” in the absence of court-established proof (meaning her conviction for perjury or a similar charge, not merely the acquittal of her alleged rapists). The men involved have also been branded “rapists”, and that’s just as objectionable.
curiousgrrl:
So you’re saying that if a rape victim can name her rapist, it’s unlikely that the police will go out and arrest someone else?
Because that’s the only way I can make sense of what you said as it was written.
Chris:
I’m not sure that’s true from anonymous’s perspective since he seems to be including reports of child sex abuse which makes the alleged false accuser someone other than the victim. Parents of murdered children do make statements publicly about who they believe murdered their child before a trial finds that person guilty. Sometimes they are right, sometimes they are wrong — either about the identity of the murderer or whether the death was a homicide.
I doubt anonymous would villify relatives of someone murdered (or believed to be murdered) the way he does girls and women who go through proper channels to report rape or sexual abuse.
No Daran, I’m saying that rape i differen than theft because if often turn on more o n whether rape occured than on who the guilty party is, or more ofen than theft at anyrate. not worth wasting so much ink on.
OK, I understand you now.
I know that in the UK, for about a quarter of all reported rapes, no suspect is ever identified. Of the rest, about 90% do not result in a rape conviction (though in some cases the suspect is convicted of other offences)
Cases fail at various stages in the process, because it is determined, rightly or wrongly, that there is no reasonable chance of securing a conviction. I don’t know what proportion fail because of reasonable doubt about whether the crime occured at all, as opposed to doubt about the perpetrators identity.
Oh I agree. People like ‘anonymous’ don’t ‘think’ at all, in the sense of engaging their brains to synthesise new ideas. The word-for-word identical comment as far as I can see has been posted elsewhere with no attempt to relate it to whatever was said, while the washing bill of purported “evidence” has been spammed all over the net.
This isn’t debate. It’s Duckspeak.
I guess it happened years ago. I started having sex at a very early age. I’m not sure why, I just wanted to. When I was still in high school, I was in competition with myself to see how many boys I could have sex with in a week. I became quite self educated in the subtle differences there are in each boys genitalia.
Guys who looked like they were packing huge equipment sometimes where packing “happy meal” toys, while guys you would least expect would be packing man-size equipment that would make any girl’s mouth water and pusy sweat.
One day I had sex with three boys in the bathroom of my boyfriend’s house, and I immediately got a reputation f being easy. That reputation was a double edged sword. On the positive side, I got more guys than ever, but on the negative side everyone knew. Even in this age of “equal rights” girls still suppose to not like having sex. Strangely, feminist are the ones perpetuating this myth. A feminist friend of mine told me if I claimed I was raped, I could redeem myself and reputation. I could blame my avid hunger for sex on “being abused at an early age”. She even suggested that I claim I was raped by my father. My reputation would be instantly vindicated as I enjoyed all the powers and benefits of being a “victim”.
Years later when I was being dishonorable discharged from the Navy for having sex with over half the men and few of the women in my squad, I claimed I was raped, but since many of my sexcapades were video taped, I didn’t want to risk being caught in a lie because I couldn’t remember which guys and gals video taped me and which ones didn’t, so I made a claim in 1996 that I was raped by three boys when I was in high school.
It was tough living the lie, and I wasn’t interested in being in the Navy anymore. A friend told me I could make tons of money by marrying a man, having his child, then leaving him forcing him to pay child support which can take up to 60% of his net pay. If I had children from three different guys, I could collect over one thousand dollars of tax free child support each month for 18 years, but that plan fell through because I married a loser who found out I gave birth to another man’s child while married to him. My ex-husband tried to gain custody of my child, but I didn’t want to pay child support to him, so in 1998 I claimed that he kidnapped me and tried to kill me.
I’ve been a stripper/prostitute/escort for awhile now, and I’ve been taking a few classes at UCNC in hopes to recruit a few girls of my own to pimp out. One night in 2002 I was having a particular good night, so I partied a little too hard, gave a public lap dance to a cab driver, when he wouldn’t have sex with me in exchange for cab fare, I stole his cab, and when the cops tried to stop me, I tried to kill them. I’m still on probation for that little incident.
Earlier this year in 2006, I was working my ass off – literally! I had sex with a “client”, then with my boyfriend, then with a battery vaginal sex toy, then with two guys in exchange for a ride to the lacrosse party. The boys were pissed because I arrived so wasted. I had my routine party drugs that evening and I was feeling grrrrrreate! I stumbled all over the place, and after five minutes I wanted to leave. After why not? I already was paid. My stripper friend, “K”, was arguing with the boys over us taking the money without providing a show. She called them racial slurs and they responded in kind, but to get them back, she called 911 and lied claiming that we were only driving by and racial slurs were being yelled at us. We laughed and laughed that the 911 –people could be so stupid.
I was so wasted that I forgot my money and phone at the boys’ house, but the $400.00 “K” didn’t want to slpit her take with me, so she called the cops to have me arrested. I drank the last of my booze and took the last of my party drugs so the cops wouldn’t atke it. By the time the cops arrived I was feeling “fffffffine!” And that’s when it hit me! I was being arrested for … oh I forgot, but to get out of it I claimed rape. That always works. I was surprised they believed me. My story was wild and a fantastic fantasy, but I had no evidence to back it up. I only had a little scratch on my knee from when I fell when I was totally wasted, and a little scrape on my ankle. The doctor and the nurse checked my pusy. I really enjoyed that. I’m thinking of having pap smears every week. I love laying there naked with my legs up and cold metal probes are inserted into my vagina. I must have had four orgasms just waiting there.
The local DA, he’s such a loser, wanted so badly to get elected that he cherry picked every piece of evidence to make a case. No doubt he’s worried I’d contradict myself even more. It’s hard to remember a lie when you don’t really give a damn about it. All I wanted was to get out of getting arrested that night. All he cared about was making national news. He said it was better than sex, and I would agree. In college, the DA should have spent less time with his head in books, and more time learning how to please a woman. You’d figure a white man with such a small penis would make up the difference with some kind of technique.
It’s amazing how feminist groups and racist groups are fast to jump on cases like this. I figure I can make bucks on the movie right alone. I thin it’s a laugh how news anchors like Nancy and Wendy twist and stretch any evidence or story to make sure people believe a rape actually occurred, but when someone points out that the evidence proves the rape didn’t really exist, both Nancy and Wendy claim that others are twisting and stretching the evidence. Talk about the kettle calling the pot black. Nancy and Wendy are my heroes. They have no integrity and that’s probably how they got where they are. Girls like Nancy, Wendy, and me should stick together. Using victimhood as a weapon and tool for personal gains will get us rich! I kinda feel sorry for those boys though, but you can’t make an omelet without breaking a few eggs.
I approved Stripper’s comment because it is a false accusation against a specific person through impersonation. Odds are far in favor of Stripper being a man, maybe even Anonymous. So, Daran, women don’t have a monopoly on false accusations. Just because they often hide their identity doesn’t mean they aren’t out there and every bit as malicious, and dangerous (directly or indirectly), as women who lie about being raped.
Abyss2hope:
I agree.
I apply a strong presumption of truth to people’s descriptions of themselves and their personal experiences, but not a limitless one. What first triggered my bullshit detector was this:
stripper:
When I criticise feminists, I try to keep it real. I can’t imagine any feminist saying such a thing.
Malicious? Unquestionably. Dangerous? I’m not saying it’s harmless, but there’s no way this could result in police action against the woman. You wouldn’t have approved it it you thought it was that dangerous.
In any case the claim is that a person falsely claiming to the police that they were raped is a uniquely female claim. Please refute that if you can; I’m genuinely interested in finding out about unusual cases. Alternatively you can dismiss it on the grounds of irrelevance – I only raised it because I misunderstood what Q Grrl said.
Daran, in child sexual abuse cases that have been thrown out or dismissed as false without charges being filed some of the alleged victims were male. The assumption that the stigma for male victims is so high that they would never falsely report is no more based in fact than the assumption that for the same reason females would never lie about rape.
Just because the number is unkown doesn’t mean it must be assumed to be zero. If proof is needed, then there must also be proof that the number is indeed zero from who claim that’s the accurate number.
The reason many of the descriptions about women who lie about rape is so narrow when they bother to define it at all is they want to exclude all the common scenarios where men are known to lie about rape and other sex crimes. But the claim (and proof) that girls and women lie about rape is not limited to occurances where a girl or woman goes to the police and says, “I’ve been raped and I’d like to file charges.”
Daran:
This spoofing can be dangerous when unchallenged in that it reflects and confirms many people’s stereotypes about alleged rape victims. Some of those people will end up being jurors in rape trials. The attacks on alleged rape victims can also escalate to direct criminal behavior by someone who reads this sort of nonsense where it is treated as truthful and decides to act outside the law.
A man was convicted of trying to hire someone to murder the alleged victim in the Kobe Bryant trial. Other alleged rape victims have been murdered. Many others feel it is their right to make anonymous death threats against alleged victims.
If you think rapists and those who support rapists don’t feed off this sort of nonsense to excuse continued criminal behavior, you are wrong.
I didn’t answer “dangerous” in the negative.
I agree that “Mary Doe” is at considerable risk of physical harm. I deeply regret that, and utterly condemn those who would threaten her safety, as well as those, who try to inflame the situation by posting crap like this. But even if she were to be attacked by someone who had been influenced by his post, it is unlikely to have been the sole influence, or even a major influence on that person.
Contrast the dangers of a false accusation*, which are direct and immediate to the accused person.
Jurors are also influence by statements like this:
There’s no such research, nor any evidence to support that claim. Unlike “stripper” and your anonymous commenter, who can only spew their crap about the cesspool of the web, Ms. Bindel gets her false assertions published without challenge in a respected Newspaper.
*Antifeminist typically fail to distinguish between ‘allegations’ (“I was raped”) and ‘accusations’ (“Joe Sixpack raped me”). Accusations are the subclass of allegations which identify a perp.
Daran:
Right, but there is also a specific person in those cases who can be held accountable if that false accusation is proven beyond a reasonable doubt. But harm that is pervasive and indirect is still harm and shouldn’t be dismissed when talking about false accusations.