Hours after the outgoing attorney general of Kansas charged one of the nation’s few late-term abortion providers with illegally aborting viable fetuses, a judge dismissed the charges, ruling Friday that the attorney general had overstepped his authority. [….] Kline’s last-minute push to charge Tiller before he leaves office was dismissed on the grounds it violated a 19th century statute outlining the attorney general’s duties.
Kline, who is Operation Rescue’s “Man Of The Year” for 2006, was rejected by the voters at least in part because of his fanatical anti-abortion views. He’s not through making trouble; the article reports that he’s already planning to use his next gig, as a county-level district attorney, to harass a Planned Parenthood office.
Here’s the part of the article I found most interesting:
Last year, Dr. George Tiller reported aborting 240 viable fetuses at his Wichita clinic because the pregnant woman was at risk of irreversible harm.
Anti-abortion activists have long contended that Tiller’s diagnoses are flimsy. Seeking to verify those suspicions, the attorney general pressed a two-year legal battle to get access to Tiller’s medical records. Charts for about 60 patients were turned over to him in late October.
The 30 charges Kline filed against Tiller — all misdemeanors — center on 15 of those patients. According to court records, all were approved for abortions because they suffered anxiety or had experienced an episode of “major depressive disorder.” Among them were several young teens and one 10-year-old, all of them in their late second or early third trimesters.
Kline maintains that depression is not a valid reason for a late-term abortion under Kansas law because the woman’s major bodily functions are not irreversibly threatened. Allies in the anti-abortion community agree: “This is a loophole that Tiller’s trying to exploit,” said Troy Newman, director of Operation Rescue.
But the U.S. Supreme Court has repeatedly ruled that any restrictions on abortion must include an exception for the pregnant woman’s health, including her mental well-being. The Kansas Supreme Court reminded Kline of that precedent last year.
“I believe I have complied with the spirit of the law and with the letter of the law,” Tiller said in an interview in June 2005, one of very few he has given in recent years.
On Friday, Tiller’s lawyers said he is “wholly innocent” and “has operated his practice under a microscope of scrutiny from the public and regulatory authorities.”
Tiller’s clinic — one of just three in the nation that perform late-term abortions — draws patients from as far as California, Vermont, Florida and Puerto Rico. Many have discovered late in their pregnancies that they’re carrying fetuses with genetic abnormalities or fatal deformities. Some are suicidal. A few, Tiller said, fear their relatives will disown, beat or even kill them for conceiving out of wedlock.
“They are absolutely desperate, for whatever reason, to terminate the pregnancy,” Tiller said in the 2005 interview. “I will never know in my heart and soul what that [feels like]. But I think it must mean as much to a woman to be told she can’t have an abortion as it does for a patient with cancer to be told that nothing can be done for him.”
The pro-life movement has committed itself to opposing health exceptions to abortion bans. But Dr. Tiller’s statements reflect a reality that pro-life fanatics ignore: There are real reasons that late-term abortions are needed; the suffering that some individual women will deal with, if pro-life fanatics get their way, will be horrible. Proposing to do away with health exceptions, including mental health exceptions, is proposing that the well-being of women (and girls) is not a relevant concern under the law. A more misogynistic view is hard to imagine.
(Also, that Operation Rescue’s “man of the year” opposes a mental health exception for a pregnant 10 year old vividly illustrates how little concern or compassion the pro-life movement has for post-birth children, doesn’t it?)
[Crossposted at Creative Destruction. If your comments aren’t being approved here, try there.]
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I just keep hoping this guy will go away, unfortunately sticking our heads in the sand is not effective in keeping this guy out of state or county government. Who in his right mind would want to stop a 10 year old from having an abortion?
“Who in his right mind would want to stop a 10 year old from having an abortion?”
I guess they’d claim (maybe rightly) that the abortion would be traumatic and upsetting for the girl, and that it’s compassionate of them to protect her from it. Of course that ignores the fact that the alternative – pregnancy and labour and everything that follows – will almost certainly be more traumatic. Ideally she would never have become pregnant, but sadly these things can’t always be avoided.
As for this: “Kline maintains that depression is not a valid reason for a late-term abortion under Kansas law because the woman’s major bodily functions are not irreversibly threatened.”
If a woman is suffering major depression then a suicide attempt is a real possibility, and surely that threatens her ‘bodily functions’? Also, and correct me if I’m wrong, but some psychotropic medications are not recommended in pregnancy? So remaining pregnant may mean she can’t have the appropriate treatment. And the stress of a pregnancy and birth is bad enough when it’s a wanted baby, it seems unspeakably cruel to force it on an unwilling woman or girl already coping with mental health problems.
If the fetus is viable wouldn’t it be quicker and less traumatic for the girl/woman to have an emergency c-section (and give the child up for adoption)? Late term abortions are very expensive and time consuming. I’ve read reports that Tiller charges thousands of dollars for some late term abortions depending upon just how far along the women actually is in the pregnancy.
If the fetus is viable wouldn’t it be quicker and less traumatic for the girl/woman to have an emergency c-section (and give the child up for adoption)?
“girl/woman”? Did you miss the 10 years old part? What person in their right mind would think a 10 year old child giving birth in any fashion would be a good thing?
Late term abortions are very expensive and time consuming.
“How much does an abortion cost?
In 1995, the cost of an early abortion ranges from $200 to $400. Later term abortions cost approximately $400-700 between the 13th and 16th week; after that, the cost goes up about $100/week. The cost increases over time due to greater complications in the procedure. [Source: “Susan Dudley, Ph.D. “Economics of Abortion” National Abortion Federation 1996]”
“The average cost for a partial-birth abortion ranges from $1,100 to $1,700, depending on the length of pregnancy.”
” According to the Agency for Healthcare Research and Quality in Rockville, Md., the average cost of a vaginal delivery is $5,574, while the average cost of C-section is $11,361.”
The “saving money ” reason doesn’t seem to work.
Got any other reasons why anyone would want to force a 10 year old to give birth?
The anti-abortionists are always on about “But think of the chiiiiiiildren!” – how about those pregnant 10, 11, 12 year olds? They’re still children too.
And a c-section is major abdominal surgery. Takes a lot of recovery even for a full-grown healthy woman who’s prepared for it.
“If the fetus is viable wouldn’t it be quicker and less traumatic for the girl/woman to have an emergency c-section (and give the child up for adoption)?”
Well I can’t say for certain, but I think that’s very unlikely. As the commenter above mentioned, a c-section is major surgery with significant health risks and a long, painful recovery, not a good thing to inflict on a little girl (or anyone) when there is a better alternative. Also it depends what you mean by ‘viable’, presumably that isn’t the same as ‘full-term’ – it doesn’t seem very ethical to deliver a very premature baby (the care of which is far more ‘time-consuming and expensive’ than the abortion you’re so concerned about) which may well not survive anyway and is likely to suffer severe health problems if it does – making it a poor candidate for adoption for one thing. I honestly don’t see what is gained by doing this, other than prolonging and multiplying the suffering for all involved.
I remember reading that adoption actually tends to be more emotionally traumatic than abortion as a way of dealing with an unwanted pregnancy. Presumably because with the abortion you get more of a sense of closure and ability to move on with your life, whereas once the child is born and ‘given up’ the thoughts about it never end.
Obviously an early abortion would be the best choice of all if the pregnancy is definitely unwanted, but that is not always possible. In the case of the 10 year old, she might not even realise she’s pregnant, or be afraid to tell anyone, until the signs are unmistakable.
As for late term abortions being expensive and time-consuming – presumably in the US you also have to pay for a c-section, especially if it’s an elective procedure?
Cows are the animals you’re thinking of–take the baby away immediately and they bellow for a while, but after a few days seem to forget all about having had a calf, and indeed won’t recognize the calf if they are re-introduced. It doesn’t work quite that way for humans.
The interesting thing (from the legal perspective) was why the charges were thrown out. Kline’s office was supposed to put in a request to the local DA’s office before muscling in. Kline didn’t bother to do that, which to me suggests that he’s either overconfident (assumed the local DA would leavve him alone) or desperate to get the charges filed before he’s out of office. It’s a bit hard to believe he’s so stupid that he didn’t know about the law.
I’d love to see the correspondence between Kline and the local DA around this.
Reading critically is fundamental. In the excerpt that Amp quoted-and you can see it above for yourself-it says, “Among them were several young teens and one 10-year-old, all of them in their late second or early third trimesters.” Please note the phrase “among them” which means that not all of the women in question are 10 years old; some of them are grown women and others are teens and there was one 10-year-old ( a girl, not a woman, in my book).
Furthermore, I never said a 10-year-old giving birth was a good thing. I said-and feel free to go back and reread my words for yourself-that it would be “quicker and less traumatic” to have a c-section than a late-term abortion which may take a day or more to complete.
Your right, it’s definitely cheaper to kill it in utero.
A lot of pro-lifers mistakenly think that c-sections and late-term abortions are interchangable, identical choices, other than whether or not the fetus survives. They are not. The relatively safe, routine c-sections we’re all familiar with are performed towards the end of the third trimester, on women whose bodies have at least begun the process of preparing to give birth. Surgery to take a live embryo out of a woman who is in her 7th month of pregnancy — or earlier — is much more intrusive and potentially damaging than an ordinary c-section, or than an abortion.
For a 10-year-old late in her sixth or seventh month of pregnancy, an abortion is safer than a c-section. Or she can wait two to three months and then have a c-section, but that could hardly be called “quicker,” and it’s probably not “less traumatic,” either.
Oh, don’t. You were not replying to Ampersand, you were replying to and quoting Sarah from comment 2. And in that comment Sarah was specifically replying to the question:“Who in his right mind would want to stop a 10 year old from having an abortion?”
Hmmm, “quicker and less traumatic”, seems to imply that giving birth was a good thing, even for the 10 year old. Though you don’t seem to understand that a c-section is major surgery, with all sorts of possible complications: “C-sections are a major surgery, and major surgeries can have major complications. Some complications that can occur during or after a C-section include heavy bleeding, damage to the bladder or intestines, major infections of the uterus, kidneys, lungs, or other areas, opening up of the skin incision, blood clots around the uterus or in the leg veins or lungs, an inability of the blood to clot, and damage to the uterus that makes future childbirth more dangerous. The uterus is a large, muscular organ that has an enormous blood supply. When an incision is made into the uterus, there can be a lot of bleeding. Modern doctors have medications and stitches to stop this, but even so, there are some women who need a blood transfusion during a C-section. (Others, on rare occasions, need a hysterectomy to save their life). Most women who undergo a C-section need to take oral iron pills, since the blood loss is at least twice as much as during a vaginal delivery. A number of women develop uterine infections, requiring extra days in the hospital and powerful antibiotics.
“
You are one who brought up cost and money. Don’t get miffed at me because you were wrong.
And as for the “Reading critically is fundamental.” comment?
Go be condescending to someone else.
No, it doesn’t delve into the depths of callousness and apathy the pro-life movement has for the post-born. For that you a better illustration would be the man responsible for over half a million deaths in Iraq being triumphed for promoting “a culture of life”.
Yes, I was replying to and quoting from Sarah. And your point would be…..?
And I was replying to both Sarah’s specific comments about the 10 year old girl and the other women who are also having late term abortions, that is why I said “girl/woman” instead of speaking solely about the 10 year old.
No, it does not. I think we both can agree that once a 10 year old becomes pregnant there really is no such thing as a “good” solution, whether she chooses birth or abortion. The “good” thing would have been for her to never become pregnant in the first place.
I’m not miffed at you; I just think you weren’t paying attention to what I clearly wrote when you said that I was implying a 10 year old giving birth was a “good” thing and when you failed to realize that I used “girl/woman” because my comment was meant to be in general to all late term abortions (not only in reference to the 10 year old).
Its funny to read that the choice for this raped 10-year old girl at 28 weeks gestation is abortion or giving birth, cant you see that if she goes to dr tiller shes got to through a labour with all the pain anyway, the only difference is that she delievers a corpse instead of a living baby.
And the right to a corpse can never be something to fight for.
Abortion is something else. Im definetely pro-choice if were talking about the first 20 weeks of p0regnancy. Women must have the right to end their pregnancies if they want so. But third trimester abortions is not about ending a pregnancy, its about women who think they have the right to a corpse.
And “its easier to move on with your life after abortion than adoption “as someone wrote was the dumbest and most cynichal I ever heard. You can use that argument at living babies after birth as well.
If the father dies or ran away with your best friend ?
Its hard to be a single mother.
If the baby screams night and day and makes you sick?
Feel saaaaad about me!
I got to have the baby killed at a hospital or a post birth abortion clinic, otherwise I cant go on with my life!
Oh, I disagree, Carmalita. Abortion, at any point, is about the same thing: the right of a woman to have control over her body.
Everything else is a distraction from that basic right.
And, to head off the trolls, YES, I think men ought to have the same right, and NO, in some cases we don’t, but that’s hardly an objection is it?
—Myca
PS. What a horrible, insulting phrasing you’ve chosen.
One thing that has escaped attention, is that a pregnant 10 year old is very obvious evidence of a serious crime, and one that Tiller is required by law to report to the police. He does not, because Tiller cares not one whit about his patients, nor one whit about his patients who have died under his ‘care’. He cares about money, and in a very strange way, he gets a sadistic pleasure out of performing late term abortions. Anyone who has seen the inside of his clinic will understand, and those who haven’t, I have no precious link for you, sorry.
I believe this comment will not be approved, although it meets this sites requirements.
So, you have no proof to back up your extroardinary claim?
Astonishing.
The people who opposed this abortion did so because they sadistically enjoyed the sight of a pregnant 10 year old. And they’re all pedophiles. And they’re crazy. And they’re all aliens.
Anyone who has seen the inside of their sock drawers will understand, and those who haven’t, I have no precious link for you, sorry.
[You are so almost deleted, even though you follow the rules! –Mandolin]
I KNEW IT!
It’s called “projection,” Mandolin. Guys like Eric imagine that everyone is as greedy, selfish and hateful as they are.
So, no one cares that Tiller allowed an obvious rape to escape unpunished? A funny position for alleged feminists. We’re talking about a 10 year old girl here. What do you think happened to her after her abortion? Do you think she went home to a normal household and sat in her 5th grade class happily? Or is it more than likely she went straight back into the incest/stranger molestation dynamic that brought her to Tiller in the first place?
Also, Tiller is required to report it. No requested, not suggested, required. See here…
http://www.aidforwomen.com/ablaws.htm
You’re looking for 38-1522, to wit…
“When any of the following persons has reason to suspect that a child has been injured as a result of physical, mental or emotional abuse or neglect or sexual abuse, the person shall report the matter promptly as provided in subsection (c) or (e): Persons licensed to practice the healing arts…”
I’m sure I’ll be accused of taking it out of context, so I linked to it all. It’s a lot, therefore I didn’t copy and paste the whole thing.
As for my lack of a link, I understand that you all think that every smidgen of information gathered by any human, anywhere is online, but it’s not. So, I’ll have to tell you, that my firm was the firm that redesigned Tillers fire protection system after the arson. I have been in every square foot of his clinic both pre and post-reconstruction. It’s bizarre. From the pictures of smiling babies everywhere to the crematorium (shades of Treblinka) in the basement. But hey, don’t take my word for it, go see for yourself. Tiller will be happy to see you if you have the requisite $10,000.
As for me being greedy, selfish, and hateful, well, boohoo. Look how I’m crying. Of course, you’d be the first to screech personal attack if someone called you fat and ugly, both of which are true, right? Wow, unsubstantiated personal attacks ARE fun; they’re also irrefutable proof of superior intelligence! Wow, I have a new home, I think.
The problem, Eric, is that without a link or any sort of backing evidence, anyone at all can claim anything at all. Your refusal to offer (and in fact, contempt for the concept of) evidence does not speak well of your position.
See, it works this way: I know for a fact that Phill Kline is sexually aroused by the thought of pregnant children. Sure, I don’t have a link, and I’ve got literally nothing to back this up, but believe me, I’ve read his psychiatrist’s notes, and they’re really bizarre.
What? You don’t believe me? Why on earth not?
You’re out of line, and you need to stop. If you keep doing this, you won’t be posting here any longer, period.
—Myca
“As for my lack of a link, I understand that you all think that every smidgen of information gathered by any human, anywhere is online, but it’s not. So, I’ll have to tell you, that my firm was the firm that redesigned Tillers fire protection system after the arson. I have been in every square foot of his clinic both pre and post-reconstruction. It’s bizarre. From the pictures of smiling babies everywhere to the crematorium (shades of Treblinka) in the basement. But hey, don’t take my word for it, go see for yourself. Tiller will be happy to see you if you have the requisite $10,000.”
If this is true, then go write it up. There are outlets in journalism, you know.
“As for me being greedy, selfish, and hateful, well, boohoo.”
You started the dialogue in that direction with your ridiculous, defensive post.
“Look how I’m crying. Of course, you’d be the first to screech personal attack if someone called you fat and ugly, both of which are true, right? Wow, unsubstantiated personal attacks ARE fun; they’re also irrefutable proof of superior intelligence! Wow, I have a new home, I think.”
I’m going to contradict Myca on this one. You’re gone now, Eric. Your original post was hostile, and I’m not going to support your personal attacks.
You are banned from this site. Please refrain from posting here again in the future.
I support your contradiction.
;-)
Actually, Eric raises a good question: why DIDN’T Tiller turn that case over to the police?
Because the girl in question probably lived in a cesspool of incest, which is roughly consistent with a family that wouldn’t condone abortion for 10 year olds.
I’m not familiar with the facts of this specific case, which is why I wasn’t debating Eric on whether or not Tiller acted inappropriately in regards to the 10 year old. Do we know for a fact that he didn’t go to CPS on this?
—Myca
Well, I was assuming for the sake of argument that Eric knew that he (Tiller) didn’t before he (Eric) made that statement.
*grin*
Yeah, that would be a good assumption, except Eric apparently hates evidence with the white-hot fury of a thousand suns . . . so without some sort of backup, I’m not really down with assuming he knows what he’s talking about.
Ooh, and after some poking around, I encounter this, which seems to indicate that the entire claim is bullshit.
How very surprising. The entire ‘controversy’ is simply untrue. Period.
—Myca
Actually, Eric, I’d be the first to yawn that yet another moron with issues thinks that “fat” and “ugly” are two of the most devastating insults that can be leveled at a woman.
I wonder if the Tiller clinic is aware that it hired such a person as a contractor. Somebody should let them know to take their business elsewhere next time; I’m sure they’re quite aware of the name of Eric’s firm.