I’d just like to say that bashing McCain for his age is out of line.
There are certainly legitimate concerns to be raised about his age … for example, it makes sense for Sarah Palin to receive far more scrutiny than Joe Biden, since it seems more likely that John McCain might die in the next four years than that Barack Obama might die in the same time. That’s a legitimate point to be made.
Also, I don’t buy that referring to McCain’s campaign or policies as ‘confused’ is a dogwhistle attack on his age … his campaign and policies, after all, have actually seemed awfully confused, and I don’t think it’s unreasonable to point that out.
But all that aside, I have heard an awful lot of liberals … not Obama’s official campaign flacks or anything, but just my buddies and folks online … attacking McCain’s age, painting him as Grandpa Simpson, and treating it as a matter for jokes.
I don’t think it’s funny. I think age discrimination is real, and I think the assumption that if someone is a certain age, they’ve therefore got nothing to contribute intellectually is an idea that is anti-knowledge, and therefore part of what got us to where we are now.
It’s closely related to ableism and a lot of employment rights issues, too, and those who mock John McCain because of his age are coming down on the wrong side of a whole host of issues, whether they realize it or not.
I don’t like McCain. I think his policies are wrong, wrong, wrong. But I think they’re wrong because he’s a movement conservative and warmonger with the good judgment of a fish sandwich, not because he’s old.
He’d be just as wrong were he 20 years younger, and he’d have more years in front of him to be wrong in.
Don’t comment unless you accept the basic dignity, equality, and inherent worth of all people.
I don’t like McCain. I think his policies are wrong, wrong, wrong. But I think they’re wrong because he’s a movement conservative and warmonger with the good judgment of a fish sandwich, not because he’s old.
It also appears that he’s not very smart and not very interested in the issues.
I, too, am tired of the jokes about and disdain of McCain’s age. Just like I’m tired of jokes about Palin’s physical appearance. I guess that old & culturally ingrained habits are hard to break.
Both of them are astoundingly ignorant of relevant facts and issues and both of them hold abhorrent political and moral positions. If that isn’t enough, I don’t know what is.
I do have to disagree with, “… the good judgment of a fish sandwich…” I think a fish sandwich would’ve had the sense to at least thoroughly vet Palin before announcing. You know, so the fish sandwich’s campaign would be prepared to respond to troopergate, etc.
I think that, when people are talking about his age, they do literally believe that his mind is not as sharp as it used to be.
I mean, what the hell else can you infer from the utterly bizarre “Spain” confusion?
Well, I was thinking one of those McDonald’s weird Fillet-O-Fish things with the mystery fish inside, not a high-quality salmonburger or some such. There’s a lot of variation in the quality of judgment exhibited by your average fish sandwich, I’ll grant you.
Right. I believe that liberal/progressive idea are better, stronger, fundamentally more fair ideas than those of the right, and it’s important for us to show it. That may mean that we’re playing by a double standard, as the right makes vicious and unfair attacks that we answer with substance, but if we win we win on the basis of leftist ideals, not on the basis of sacrificing our ideals to victory.
—Myca
I mean, what the hell else can you infer from the utterly bizarre “Spain” confusion?
That his mind was never that sharp to begin with? Consider Bush. Or Quayle. Or Palin for that matter.
Right, Dianne.
We’ve had plenty of dumbasses run for elected office that were dumbasses without age forcing it on them.
My best guess as to the Spain thing? He made a gaffe, didn’t know who Zapatero was, and his campaign didn’t want to admit that he screwed up. For McCain, who’s been basing his entire campaign on his foreign policy experience, it might be better to be thought a crazy warmonger than a dumbass. After all, ‘crazy warmonger’ doesn’t contradict his campaign’s narrative.
—Myca
My best guess as to the Spain thing? He made a gaffe, didn’t know who Zapatero was, and his campaign didn’t want to admit that he screwed up.
I agree with you that far. I disagree about the likely reasoning. I believe that McCain (or perhaps the GOP, given Bushadminco…) just cannot ever admit to being in error. The whole thing would have gone away with an explanation of, “It was the end of a long day, I was tired & misheard the question.” But, nooooooooo. Instead he has to claim that he will not commit to meeting with the head of state of one of our closest allies. I want somebody to ask him if he’ll commit to meeting PM Brown at the White House.
I agree. This post on Crooks & Liars (titled “Shouldn’t John McCain Release His Medical Records?” – uh, how about no?) about McCain’s refusal to release his medical records as if this is just unacceptable, as if we have a right to know each and every medical condition he has, was disgusting. The concern about the very real possibility that we could have President Palin on our hands is one thing, but to present McCain’s medical conditions as proof he is not able to lead the country is ableist and ageist, and an example of the kind of disingenuous behavior I hate to see in liberal bloggers who really should know better. We already have proof he’s not able to lead the country, in the form of his readily apparent ill-preparedness that has nothing to do with his age or medical conditions. They’re just looking for fodder to exploit the ageists and ableists among us, and it’s horrible.
I dunno…while I agree that in the abstract, old age jokes are a bit bigoted, in this particular case, I don’t mind so much, for three reasons:
1. I think the people making (and laughing at) the age jokes don’t really believe he’s going senile. It’s only funny (to the very slight extent these jokes are funny) as long as you can tell yourself that it’s not true – it IS funny, generally, to ascribe characteristics to people which they clearly don’t have. In situations where that possibility is being taken seriously, the humor dries up pronto.
2. It’s not as if his age is being used as a serious rebuttal to his positions. It’s not as if the response to some policy proposal of his is, “Yeah, but you’re old, so what do you know” – his age is just the punchline, often to a setup that doesn’t involve him in any way. For a hypothetical example: a late-night talk show host is discussing some scientific discovery of an ancient skeleton and remarks that it’s John McCain’s kindergarten teacher. Yeah, the punchline is “John McCain is old!” but it’s not casting his age as a bad thing; it’s just marveling at the high number of years, much as someone might make a height joke about Conan O’Brien.
3. These jokes are also pretty toothless (if you’ll pardon the expression), in that they’re an expression of the powerless mocking someone in a powerful position relative to the mocker. The reverse is virtually never funny (and why I can’t stand so many South Park episodes). They just don’t carry the weight necessary to cause John McCain any personal, psychological harm, and I don’t get the impression that anyone but McCain himself is supposed to be the target of these barbs. Context is important, and the same joke about 74-year-old McCain would not be funny at all if made about an 84-year-old guy living off his Social Security income, even though he’s significantly older.
Jokes along the lines of “McCain was around for [X ancient event]” are legitimate because they play off McCain’s frequent remarks about how he remembers Ike, served in Vietnam, cast a vote against action in Lebanon, etc. (It also means he was around to be scandalously involved in the last large taxpayer bailout of the financial industry, but somehow “Keating Five” doesn’t come up on McCain’s list of the greatest hits of the 2nd half of the 20th c.) Jokes that McCain is losing his mental abilities due to age, however, are inappropriate. Either he genuinely is suffering from some mental disability, like Reagan, and we had better take that very very seriously, or he isn’t and it is ageist to talk about it.
Also, I do think that conservatives are being either dishonest or “gotcha” with regard to McCain’s physical abilities. For example, the Obama ad that noted McCain doesn’t use computers or email was HEAVILY attacked, e.g. in the LA Times and almost every other major news outlet, because people said that McCain was unable to use computers due to his war injuries. A lot of other people pointed out that Stephen Hawking can use a computer and that this is more a matter of will than of physical limitations. But think about this: until the point that it could be used to attack Obama as a horrible, veteran-hating person, saying that McCain had physical disabilities was not OK. Unlike Gov. David Paterson of NY, who has done a great job as gov. and been up front about his blindness, McCain himself never said he was physically disabled from using computers and indeed claimed that he was in the process of learning. Again, which is it: is McCain in fine physical form, hiking the Grand Canyon rim to rim; or is he somewhat physically disabled and therefore will need certain accommodations just like any other slightly disabled but perfectly-capable-of-doing-the-work American?
I would love to see a president who, unlike FDR and JFK, could be honest about his physical limitations. It might help people understand that Americans with disabilities are integral to this country’s functioning and shouldn’t have to hide their wheelchair behind a desk or lie about getting steroid shots or pass off their difficulties in using a conventional computer as technophobia.
MH:
Point 1: Whether you believe what you’re saying does not make a difference to the people around you who hear what you are saying. Miscommunication happens.
Point 2: Jokes don’t have to a used as “a serious rebuttal to a position” to be offensive.
Point 3: Yes, the jokes are not necessary going to hit McCain hard as he is powerful, and, more importantly, not around your kitchen table to hear each and every one. But who is around to hear them? I don’t want my kid to counter a request from Grandma saying “oh, you’re senile Grandma, you don’t know what you’re talking about”. I don’t want my boss to feel that I might not respect him for his age. I don’t want to make my friends worry about their age and how people view them because of it.
These comments may seem abstracted because they are being made about someone far away and untouchable. But as long as your friends, family, and community are around to hear them, there are other repercussions to consider.
Even if the “he’s so old” jokes are based on the idea that McCain’s not really senile, drooling, shuffling, whatever, if they equate age with senility, drooling, shuffling, etc., and those characteristics with being ridiculous and worthy of contempt, they hurt somebody, a lot of somebodies in fact, even if they don’t hurt McCain so much.
McCain sometimes uses his age as an excuse for not understanding things that he should–like how the internet works. In those cases, he should be called out for his own ageism. There are plenty of people in their 70s and older who use email, shop online, blog, etc. He doesn’t do those things for other reasons–NOT because his age somehow makes them impossible to understand.
I think that a thorough medical history and medical and neuropsychiatric examination of all candidates (by team of physicians and physician-witnesses) needs to be made available to the public via some interpretation by M.D.-reporters. The public should be DEMANDING that this be made available. Reagan had early Alzheimer’s disease in office. A President McCain would be of the age (72 to 76) where dementia (of various types) becomes increasingly common – not to mention stroke.
The USA could get by in the past if presidents became too ill to be fully functional, but it seems incredible that people aren’t making MORE of an issue of McCain’s age than they seem to be doing. And it seems incredible that people aren’t making MORE of an issue of McCain’s choice of Vice President and chief advisers. Sen. “who needs regulations?” Phil Gramm as financial guru, past and future? Majority of advisers being recent or current lobbyists or having financial interest in the area for which they have advice? Hello? If a 72 to 76 year old needs to delegate more than a younger person (and EVERY President has to delegate the bulk of the work), one would like to know about the candidate’s choice of advisers, use of advisers (yes-men vs pro v. con for issues), style of making decisions, and so on.
Americans are accustomed to dealing with their aged parents – should Mom and Dad still have driver’s licenses, is Dad too impaired to manage his own money and does he need to relinquish that job to Mom, is Mom forgetting too often to turn the gas burner off. We can handle honest discussions of age and its effects.
Yes, a lot of the jokes are tasteless. But there is a real generation gap in mindset. I don’t object to all the age jokes. McCain is asking to be President of all Americans, not just Americans over 65.
McCain not knowing a thing about the Internet – huh? I am sorry, but is it too much to ask to have a president who knows how to use what amounts to the current replacement of the phone and hard-copy mail? I can understand someone at the level of Senator learning how to do Internet searches and getting a guided tour of “common consumer uses of the Internet” (e-mail, mainstream news sites, alt. news/opinion sites aka blogs, social network sites, Internet payment services such as PayPal, standard consumer bank online banking and bill-paying, Amazon.com as an example of how many things can be ordered online (notice I excluded porn – can we really believe that McCain hasn’t learned to access even that – every male near a computer has peeked at least once ;) ), issues of personal and financial privacy, and so on. Half a day’s work, if even that. This seems to be just common sense – if most of the country uses one or more of these consumer services, and a large minority or majority considers Internet access to be a basic utility (most important after heat and electricity), it would make sense to have a little first-hand experience and a little knowledge. He doesn’t have to continue using everything available, he can delegate to aides, but he certainly ought to understand enough to search on his own, and he ought to realize that citizens have new sources of information.
Then he could get in an expert to discuss business uses of the Internet, just-in-time ordering, inventory management, road warrior access to “intranet” company databases through any ISP, inter-bank use of networking, standard grade security components, hackers, high-grade security. Then he could get in an expert for a short course on ultra-grade security, cyberterrorism, relationship to national security. I would hope that he has learned something about these topics in briefings.
What NancyP said. I think concerns about McCain’s age–and his POW experience–are extremely legitimate. Politics aside, what kind of shape is the brain of a 72-year-old survivor of years of torture likely to be in? That kind of repeated trauma has an effect on the physical makeup of the brain.
NancyP and MizDarwin:
Well, yes, like I said, I think that there are legitimate concerns to be raised, but that’s different than out-and-out mockery.
Also, if you’re concerned about his mental capacity, raise that issue! Talking about how old he is isn’t the same thing.
Think of it like Hillary Clinton. It would be legitimate (though incorrect) for someone to say, “I don’t think she has the temperament to be president.” It would be illegitimate (and still wrong!) for someone to say “I’ll bet she doesn’t have the temperament to be president. After all, you know how women are.”
—Myca
I’d just like to point out for the record of the absurd, that Palin is now regularly making snide comments Biden’s age. So this could also be titled “McCain and Biden are old. Huh huh huh.”
Sure. I’ve heard it more about McCain, but it’s not cool whether it’s McCain, Biden, or just some dude you see on the street. Age-bashing is uncool, regardless.
—Myca
Asking for all medical information to be made public for what is essentially a job application is really scary to me. We don’t do this to anybody in this country. (The closest I’ve seen is public health records, so the county knows I won’t be spreading TB to my clients.) Would making comprehensive medical reports available change candidate’s political positions or the goals of the political parties? How different do you think the Reagan administration would have been if we had a Republican president that was essentially “Reagan without Alzheimer’s”?
It’s especially scary to me because I certainly don’t want to be put in the position where folks to start thinking that it is OK to make hiring decisions based on a comprehensive medical report, rather than on the person in front of them and what they have done and accomplished.
I’m also not too happy with the McCain choices for VP or advisers. But:
1) Why do you claim that in the past, illness was less of an issue? Presidents still delegated matters. Delegation and scary advisers aren’t new.
2) I’m not sure where you’re going with your statement that you’re surprised people aren’t making more of an issue of age. It seems that your complaint is “McCain’s advisers and VP choice hold scary views. I hope he does not use their advice or rely on them much.” If Barack Obama choose a scary VP and advisers, I would feel the same way regardless. I don’t see why this must be an age issue; it appears to be an ideology and intended goals issue.
A generation gap does not excuse jokes referring to drooling or falling asleep during debates or conferences. Yes, there are plenty of things to contest regarding his mindset. I have heard plenty of joking references to McCain’s inability to claim he was incorrect in the Spain/Central and South America debacle. But is this situation more about his age or his mindset? They’re not interchangeable.
I agree. But why must this be equated with age? There’s a difference between:
“McCain has not put out an effort to learn to use current technologies.” and
“McCain is so old that he can’t use current technologies.”
1) And what about the shape of a 35-year old survivor of years of torture?
2) Are you going to look at statistics and decide on what might be wrong with a candidate, or are you going to look at a candidate and see what you do and don’t like?
3) Based on what I know about neurobiology, I know that I’m not confident voting on a CATSCAN. I’ll stick to looking at policies and the political machine that wants to be in power.
The presidency is different than other jobs, and people seeking it have to meet different, higher, and sometimes arbitrary and unfair standards. It’s not supporting ageism or ableism to ask the question “Is this person physically and mentally up to the demands of the next four years in office?” And it’s completely fair to compare the 2000 McCain to the 2008 version and note that he’s angrier, stubborner (if that’s a word), less verbally coherent, and more prone to doubling back on things he says and does. People of all ages can make mistakes, and change for the worse, but I can accept John McCain”s dignity, equality, and worth and think that he’s too old for the job.
Now that’s just silly. A campaign for President of the United States is so very not “essentially a job application”.
Surely, the issue is not McCain’s age, but his state of health. When you vote for a President, you are assuming, in general, that they will be around and capable for the full term of four years, not that you are voting for them to serve a shorter period and be replaced by a designated Vice-Presidential successor.
The main issue with McCain’s health is not whether or not he is psychologically unbalanced, or suffering from PTSD or dementia, but that he has had several close brushes with cancer. I don’t for a second regard being a cancer survivor as a bar to high office, but by the same token it is an issue worth discussion.
Reagan had alzheimers. while in office.
think about that: the president of the fucking united states, with the power to order a nuclear missile strike.
With alzheimer’s.
So age is certainly relevant. Age is ALSO relevant in a generational sense.
Really? I thought he was just president of the regular one. The fucking united states sounds way cooler.
think about that: the president of the fucking united states, with the power to order a nuclear missile strike.
With alzheimer’s.
Given that it’s Reagan we’re talking about, I’m not sure that the Alzheimer’s didn’t prevent him from starting a nuclear war. Remember all the talk about how nuclear war was survivable “with enough shovels” in his first term?
That aside, age does not equal dementia nor dementia age. If Bush started using drugs while in office, his effective mental capacity could go down below Reagan’s at his worst in about 5 minutes. Besides the boatload of diseases, including Alzheimer’s, which can strike middle aged people. What if Obama gets early Alzheimer’s while in office?
People become more likely to have dementia and other health problems as they age, but age alone does not equal dementia.
That being said, I highly recommend voting against McCain. Not because of his age or his history of melanoma but because he’s a war mongering goofball with no sense of shame whatsoever and a running mate who makes Bush look sane.
“Asking for all medical information to be made public for what is essentially a job application is really scary to me. We don’t do this to anybody in this country.”
Actually, I think a few Fortune 100 companies do ask that their potential CEOs get a pretty stringent physical so the company will have that info. I bet more companies would do it except that then they’d have to contend with securities law and whether this information needs to be disclosed. (So long as no one at the company knows, none of the public needs to know either, which can make for some fun “if we cover our eyes they can’t see us” moments in corporate decision making.)
Also, if Obama gets assassinated (which, in all honesty, I find more likely than early-onset Alzheimer’s), he picked a VP who wouldn’t be ludicrously unsuited for the job. Biden is kind of goofy but I don’t think there’s a concern that he’s unready to be president if he gets stuck with the job.