Restructure blogs:
White liberals* in North America often say things like, “White people have no culture.” For the overwhelming majority of white liberals, to be white is to be boring. Some white people even claim that they are “jealous” of people who are not white, as if non-white people have “culture” that white people do not, due to the sole fact they have a higher concentration of melanin in their skin, eyes, or hair.
Of course, the very definition of culture necessitates that white people have a culture.
Ever read StuffWhitePeopleLike.com? It pretty accurate describes young, white, urban hipster culture… and makes it look pretty damned pathetic.
We whites have culture. It has the flavour of warm tap water.
White people just don’t recognize that they have a culture because that culture is the default, mainstream culture. Non-white people define their culture against that of the U.S. White Americans who spend a significant time living overseas, particularly in non-white countries, realize that they have a culture once it’s no longer the majority, mainstream culture.
I don’t know what most white liberals say; I haven’t heard enough of then to be sure I’ve got a good sample of the whole country ;) But anecdotally, I have seen the “whites have no culture” meme primarily from POC who are writing on race, in particular w/r/t cultural appropriation. Obviously this may be a skewed sample.
um…. yeah, if you choose a definition that has that requirement. So “of COURSE!” seems tautological. Funny how that works, though (of COURSE!) it is a common tactic used by pretty much everyone these days, on all sides of many arguments. See, e.g. “the very definition of racism states that it can only be practiced by a race in power, ergo only whites can be racist,” vs. “the very definition of racism is discrimination by one party based on the race of another party, ergo that POC statement is racist,” vs. whatever other definition the writer wants to promote.
But more to the point.. really? Is the underlying claim of this post even vaguely correct? Do “white liberals” really answer “none” if you ask them what culture they’re from? Do they really think that they have no culture? i guess I don’t really see this, at least not in my experience.
This gets into the definition of whiteness, I think. Overall, I have white privilege. I also experience the alienation of someone in an ethnic minority. (I will never forget the strange, disorienting terror that overtook me in my college freshman seminar when, in response to something I said about Judaism, my professor asked if anyone else was Jewish, and no one raised a hand. My classmates spoke mangled Yiddish to me for the rest of the semester; they didn’t understand the concept of Sephardic Jews.)
“White culture” is not my culture; my culture — as a Sephardic Jew and the child of an immigrant — is by no means the mainstream, majority culture in the US. Actually, it’s a culture a lot of people have never even heard of, including some Jews. My girlfriend is a WASP (I say that affectionately) whose family has been in the US for many generations: that’s the kind of white person who sometimes feels like and/or claims that she has no culture, because her culture is so omnipresent that it is invisible to her. As PG points out, one’s culture often only becomes really visible when it’s the minority and/or in direct contrast to another culture.
My point, I guess, then, is that “white” has two partially conflicting meanings: there is racial whiteness, which has to do with one’s access or lack thereof to white privilege, and there is cultural whiteness, which has to do with the extent to which one is a member of the US-American cultural majority and/or the extent to which one has assimilated to that culture. Most racially white people are also culturally white, but some are not. This doesn’t usually happen in reverse, as far as I know, but I do remember one kid from my high school who was ethnically and culturally white but, due to his complexion and hair color, was sometimes read as being a person of color.
PG wrote:
I see what you’re saying, but does this explanation then imply that when someone of, say, Chinese American or Native American descent doesn’t hold or enact any particular aspects of “Chinese” or some “Native American” culture, then they’re “acting white”? If so, I wonder if many such people would embrace that description of themselves. . . .
I lost my edting time…
The wording of the post is confusing. It is better explained by the author in the comment s/he writes here:
The issue of the majority culture assuming they are the default is obviously an issue. But it seems quite different from thinking you have no culture. So the use of “culture” here may not be as clear as it could be.
“Whites have no culture” is nothing but the flip side of “white is normal” (or, as often heard in this country, “oh, my culture’s just, y’know, AMERICAN culture”). It’s the same damn fallacy, differing only in the emotional connotation attached to the fundamental untruth.
It also tends to presuppose a number of unrelated variables — cultural Christianity, for example — as an intrinsic part of “whiteness”
“But more to the point.. really? Is the underlying claim of this post even vaguely correct? Do “white liberals” really answer “none” if you ask them what culture they’re from? Do they really think that they have no culture? i guess I don’t really see this, at least not in my experience.”
I’m not sure — however, it holds if you ask white high school or college students who are taking their first sociology or anthropology class. They tend to say that white people have no culture, or that Americans have no culture. You also get a lot of surprise from male students that age in those environments that they have a gender.
As my friend Ann would say, they’re just fish, unaware that what they’re swimming in is water.
Daisy Bond, you said a mouthful. I’m Sicilian-American, and know exactly where you’re coming from. Most of the time, when white people talk about “white culture”, what they’re really talking about is middle-class WASP (or other version of northern-European-Protestant) culture—the default assumption is that Southern and Eastern European heritage is “other”.
When I hear white people say< “I have no culture”, I interpret that as:
1. They do not retain or feel an affinity toward the European culture of their ancestors.
2. “Culture” in the United States, has come to mean something one buys rather than creates and/or participates in. “White culture”, as represented by “stuff white people like”, is consumer culture.
and
3. That the folks claiming “no culture” are really making a statement about how emotionally disconnected they are from both consumer culture and their ancestral culture.
I think it’s sad. I couldn’t imagine what it feels like to feel that one has “no culture”.
I had a post about this very topic that got a lot of good comments.
I went and read the article; it seems monumental in its cluelessness. “White people like this! White people think that!” I wonder if it ever occurred to the author that we actually don’t have a hive mind, that every once in a while we have a nonconformist thought or two. The article really does read like stuffwhitepeoplelike.com…except that the latter is a joke.
I’m a white guy. But “white culture” is not my culture. Neither is German, Irish, or Scottish culture, to name some of my roots. I “celebrate” Christmas the same way that Mom and Dad celebrate it, because they expect that of me and it makes them happy, but I don’t feel a connection to the holidays.
I don’t go around proclaiming that I have no culture. But claiming that I do because by definition everybody does, is playing games with semantics. Thank you for your contribution, now please go play with the other children, we want to do grown-up talk now. The culture that I have is about as old as I am; I don’t feel a connection to the religion, food, or thought that my ancestors practiced. So if I were to say, “I have no culture”, that’s what I would mean.
There are many other people in the US in the same boat, of all colors. But, speaking generally, recent immigrants are more likely to feel a connection to the long-established culture of their ancestors than people whose families have been living here for hundreds of years. And recent immigrants are, to the best of my understanding, mostly brown. So it doesn’t seem out of line for someone to note the contrast between, on the one hand, The Buddha, and on the other hand, Santa Claus. (“What about Jesus?”, you ask. Sorry, the fat guy in the red suit has a much bigger role in my family’s Christmas celebrations than the skinny rabbi with holes in his hands does.)
“3. That the folks claiming “no culture” are really making a statement about how emotionally disconnected they are from both consumer culture and their ancestral culture.”
I think that fits how I personally feel about my culture. I’m emotionally disconnected from group-think. Ergo, I do 75% of the things I do because I feel like it, just had to re-priotize some things I feel like more than others behind others, in order to survive (prioritize work over leisure is one). The remaining 25% is mostly work, where I usually have specific assignments, even then I’m known to free-lance. (Yes, in videogame testing, its apprently possible, since my superiors said that’s what I did).
I don’t care for conventions. I match clothing colors because I find it visually appealing (so if I don’t find it visually appealing, even if Vogue tells me it’s *very in*, I just won’t care and go with what I feel anyways). I use very little make-up, when I feel like it. None most of the time, including at work. My hair is brushed once or twice a week (and looks very neat still). I wash my hair once every 2 weeks, and my hair is used to it (it’s more normal amongst people who want to grow very long hair, like me) so the oil produced by the hair doesn’t make my hair greasy before ~2 weeks – it’s used to that cycle. I tend to buy my socks in children’s departments in stores, and not for lack of my size in the adult one.
Well you can see just a bit of examples of my being counter-culture without really meaning to be for or against it.
“3. That the folks claiming “no culture” are really making a statement about how emotionally disconnected they are from both consumer culture and their ancestral culture.”
I have witnessed this in that bastion of white liberalism, my local UU congregation. People who are profoundly alienated from consumer culture, and proud of it, but also, they feel, irrevocably disconnected from their heritage. Some folks knew this was in part due to aggressive assimilation by the parents and grandparents, but they didn’t feel able to reconnect with their roots in a meaningful way. I have to think they did participate in a culture and subculture, through their liberal p0litical and religious activities, but they perceived that culture as less rich and whole than others.
I remember being in a group seminar thingy and as a “get to know you” activity they had as break into groups of three and tell each other something of our cultural heritage.
This very nice, well-meaning middle-aged woman in my group went last. She was confused by what she was supposed to say. She didn’t have any cultural heritage, she said. She was just “regular.”
Well, upon questioning, it turns out that she is Irish Catholic with lots of Irish Catholic traditions that she was brought up with. And when we said, that is your cultural heritage, she said, but that is just “regular” stuff, that isn’t any special culture.
I think it was as is said above that she thought of her culture as the default standard and that the definition of culture was anything other than her default standard. It is kind of not seeing the forest through the trees and I don’t know if she really did understand the activity.
I do think white people are suffering. Of course they are.
Society is following the communist theory of taking from one group to another. But first they must consider who needs it and who it should be taken off. And of course we have no choice.
Whites were the chosen one. We are just BAD, BAD, BAD. So of course we are confused and of course we are questioning our own value. Because all we hear is how BAD our value is.
OK, so Russia failed. And sure the Berlin Wall was one hell of lesson but none the less we do it again.
We must find a culprit, and I must say instead of being peasants and slaves behind a wall, we found white culture to be the enemy. What a stuffed up way to empower people. But then I suppose freedom is the last thing on the list now a days.
I am going to be really un-politically-correct here and say the truth.
We white folks have the same problems as black folks and any other colour or culture of gender you can think of. We too are slaves to a system. There has always been 5% running things with 95% obeying. That 95% would love for all to have everything in the world they want but the system doesn’t allow it so we just …. like any other folk care for our immediate family and a few friends and/or neighbours. Socialism has always existed. It never needed to be a movement although it is used as a step to communism.
But then, I can’t help but wonder why Blacks hate Whites so much. OK, sure some considered and do consider through fucked up mentality them slaves. But white gave up their lives to say no to this. There was a big civil war.
The Africans who were selling them from Africa were never once challenged from another black. Blacks have never considered life as important as a white has. So they lost America as a trade. But that didn’t stop them from selling other blacks as slaves.
I want to say that white culture is very special. We are barterers. We believe that hard work should be paid and we were never shy to become experts in a field to progress nations and help people no matter who they were.
Sure we fought each other because of leaders in Europe but we also called on each other when we needed. We banded together.
When the roads needed building we called on the Italians. When the architect work was needed we called on the Dutch. OK, so we gave our children during WWIII to other countries and the Catholic church who made mistakes. But we wanted for them to live. We did our best to save them. To live seemed more important at the time than dying.
But then when the wars went down we risked our lives to save another. We never cared for divide. We made laws to protect all.
Be white and be proud. Even though you are un politically correct to do so.
Julie – maybe you should go do some basic reading before you start tossing around buzzwords like “politically correct” and advocating white pride.
…wow.
Also:
“White culture sucks” isn’t a vast improvement over “whites have no culture.”
Ok… Shite what I said was really long.
Please counter me if you have a voice.
Ok, this is over the top. Julie @ 15, you have a site and the same name as me.
If anything, I hope you are at least proud of our name.
You have a site which makes you better than me in this cyberspace world. I must retreat.
Please represent me well. Please don’t allow all Julies to be a worthless voice in society.
After living in India for the past 6 months, I can tell you that white culture most definitely exists. And some of the worst parts of it are being emulated in many major cities around the country (e.g.,Delhi, Calcutta, Bangalore), which makes for a very interesting, somewhat postmodern mix. I haven’t completely gotten my thoughts together about it, though, so I won’t continue with any analysis.
“But more to the point.. really? Is the underlying claim of this post even vaguely correct? Do “white liberals” really answer “none” if you ask them what culture they’re from?”
Yes, and not just white liberals—white conservatives, too. That’s pretty much the standard answer I’ve heard from any white person that isn’t connected with their ethnic heritage. “Ethnic” whites in the United States will tell you they’re Irish, Italian, Greek, Polish, Croatian, whatever.
I started thinking the answer has something to do with alienation from consumer and mass-media culture ’round about the time I found the old Hipmama boards. There was a thread there on cultural appropriation, and some self-identified “white girl”, upon being asked to reflect on her choice of tattoo—why that particular symbolism, since she had no connection to that culture in any way, shape, or form—replied something to the effect of “well, what culture do I really have, anyway?! What am I s’posed to get tattooed on me—a McDonald’s logo?!!”
And —bam!—that was a window on a world to me. I think a lot of cultural appropriation has less to do with fads and marketing than a deep, unmet need on the part of the folks being marketed to to find beauty, meaning, and community, and to have some rituals or practices that contribute to finding those attributes. I’ve noticed a big upsurge in younger white folks who still have a connection to ancestral heritage going deeper into their background, including learning the language (I know several Irish-American young men in my union who’ve taken up bagpipes, ancient Celtic games, kilts, and even Gaelic classes).
But what do the folks like the “white girl” I described above do? Sometimes appropriate, sometimes not—hence, the “stuff white people like”. It may be a joke, but it damn sure is true; there are people just like the ones described on that website, and they are in effect trying to buy a culture. “What you own is who you are” kinda thing.
And you can’t buy culture.
The culture that I have is about as old as I am; I don’t feel a connection to the religion, food, or thought that my ancestors practiced. So if I were to say, “I have no culture”, that’s what I would mean.
Wow. See, that’s what I’m talking about—-that feeling that the culture one has only came about roughly in the generation in which one was born—that culture has no past and no future. I think that’s deeply connected to the notorious historical amnesia in the United States.
I think that fits how I personally feel about my culture. I’m emotionally disconnected from group-think.
Schala, I think I understand what you’re getting at; I think most people don’t fall lock-step in with every aspect of their culture (whether or not they are aware they have one). But I have to bristle at the mention of “group-think.” We don’t spring fully formed into existence from the void through the magic power of our own thoughts. We were born, raised, live through and learn from our experiences—-and we do that in a culture. We may not like the culture we spent our formative years in, or we may not like every aspect of it—-but it did shape who we are and continues to exert after-effects in our lives. It’s as much a part of us as water.
Uh, define “White”.
I’m “white”, but there are so many different cultures for people who are also “white” that saying “There is no white culture” is about the same as saying “There is no one ‘white'”.
Likewise, saying “There is a white culture” is like saying we’re all the same. And we’re not.
La Lubu at #9: those three points are right on. I do think a lot of this stuff comes out of a a legitimate pain. And I wholeheartedly second every thing you said at #21, too.
Schala at #12: I’m confused by your comment. Are you deliberately conflating “culture” with “consumer culture” to make a a point about the culture of the US…? If not, I think you’re mistaken about what culture actually is. I’m “counter-culture” to mainstream US culture is most of the ways you listed, too, but that’s not why the culture of the US isn’t mine. My culture, as a very, very small start: the holidays and rituals I celebrate and practice, the things I value, my personal connection to my history, the recipes my mother and grandmother pass on to me, the stories I heard as a child, my mannerisms and the way I speak — none of which are familiar to the typical (to borrow La Lubu’s phrase) northern-European Protestant whose family has been in the US long enough that they don’t know the names of the people who first came here. On the other hand, that person’s worldview, stories, traditions, assumptions, family recipes are familiar to me, because they’re omnipresent. And while any of us can reject our traditions or our family recipes, no gets to reject their upbringing or, the vast majority of the time (IME), the myriad assumptions and ideas it instilled in them.
@22: I’d say “white” here stands for “I don’t identify as any particular race or ethnicity.” I know tons of people like that: they have no identifiable German/ Irish / Russian/ French/ English roots; their families have been in the U.S. and have intermarried with other white Christians for so long that they don’t really distinguish any part of their ancestry.
I think Daisy Bond’s post @ 23 is a perfect example of why there isn’t A White Culture. If there is a “White Culture” it does belong to the “northern-European Protestant whose family has been in the US long enough that they don’t know the names of the people who first came here“, except that there are many “white people” who don’t fit that description because “white” exists based on an assumption that melanin level implies similarity of cultural experiences. And it doesn’t.
The “white” population of the U.S. is comprised of peoples from a diverse background. English culture is not Italian culture is not Scandinavian culture is not German culture — or many other “white” nationalities or ethnicities. It is the erasure of the culture of the parent country which makes room for the White American Culture to take root, and that takes time.
but there are so many different cultures for people who are also “white”
Yes and no. Yes, there certainly are, but no, most of those cultures find no mainstream representation within (white) U.S. culture. That effect is amplified when you leave major metropolitan areas, into more homogenous areas where WASP or Scandinavian whiteness is the “norm” (yes, I am from the midwest!).
Like Daisy Bond said, that mainstream, middle-of-the-road representation of whiteness is ubiquitous. Most public cermonies in the U.S. that aren’t specifically geared toward serving one ethnic or religious community will usually have a short opening prayer; that prayer tends to be called “nondenominational”, but is usually given by a Protestant minister, in a decidedly “white”, northern (as opposed to southern-U.S.) style. Look at representations of “average”, or what is called “average” U.S. households in the media (including films and television programs). As a child, I noted how rare it was for women with black hair and olive skin to be the “everyday” characters; women who looked like my family were always the “bad” women. I also noted just how rare it was for representations of Mass or temple services to be shown (or even mentioned in the plot). Go to the grocery store—are your typical everyday ingredients found in the “ethnic” section? Are there common items in your diet that you have to go to specialty stores (or online) to get? Ever announce to friends and family that you’re making a trip to (name nearest metropolis within an hour or three drive) to stock up on foodstuffs, only to be inundated with lists to “pick up some ____ for me!” What about funeral customs? Some workplaces allow paid time to attend funerals of family members, but “family” is strictly defined as “spouse, parents, children” or sometimes includes brothers and sisters. The standard (dare I say “white”, since who the hell has the power to create these “norms”) definition of “family” is exclusive.
In other words, I had everyday reminders that my everyday life behind the front door of my home was weird, different, and “other”. That isn’t really changing much, although the parameters for what is being culturally appropriated are expanding (witness the popularity of various cuisines being reified as regular white-folk-food now; cuisines separate and apart from the people, land and traditions that brought them into being—but that could be a post unto itself).
Meanwhile, what is represented as “whiteness” is growing ever more classed also. I noticed that set design of television dramas and sitcoms is getting more high-end, even as the purchasing power of the U.S. public gets smaller and smaller. Take a look at the set of Ugly Betty—-how the color of the walls and decor of both Betty’s apartment and her father’s house is different from the standard representations of “what apartments and houses look like.” To me, it’s the only show on television that looks like it isn’t a movie set—like people actually live there. Hey, lots of “holiday” movies are coming out now (except for folks like Daisy Bond, ahem. What was that about representation again? And holidays? Ever worked somewhere where Yom Kippur was a paid holiday for everyone? Me either.). If you want a good demonstration of what I’m talking about, compare “Four Christmases” with “Nothing Like the Holidays”. (I should add that “Nothing Like the Holidays” mentions differing cultural norms in the plot, as Debra Messing plays the white woman married to John Leguizamo. Pay attention to how her character is presented as the “white woman”. There’s a reason that say, Marisa Tomei or Aida Turturro wasn’t chosen for that part). Or hell, for that matter just go straight for John Leguizamo’s one-man shows—he’s brilliant at dissecting cultural norms and representations of whiteness!
melanin level implies similarity of cultural experiences
Hold the phone. Whiteness does not equal similarity of melanin level, either. That’s not what “whiteness” is.
La Lubu at #26: YES. Thank you for saying all of that.
For anyone still following this thread, here’s a 15 minute radio piece by anthropologist Adam Kuper on culture-talk and the politics of identity. It’s not focussed on whiteness, or the US, but does help flesh out some of the context for dubious claims about minority “cultures” in multicultural societies.
ragged robin, can you offer a quick synopsis for those of us on dial-up?
“And while any of us can reject our traditions or our family recipes, no gets to reject their upbringing or, the vast majority of the time (IME), the myriad assumptions and ideas it instilled in them.”
You’d be surprised. Seeing as I more or less raised myself, had to create a second unfeeling personality just to survive my childhood and teen years, and have just recently re-emerged as a full person (both personalities are aware of each other and work together, rather than one replacing the other). Traditions and such are very weak in my family. The tradition is mostly that we don’t have any… At least that I know about.
I taught myself about reincarnation. Coming from a somewhat-practicing Catholic family, they weren’t about to teach me about it themselves. The whole family went to church for special events (first communions, baptism, confirmations), and sometimes Christmas eve. Stopped going for Christmas eve when I wasn’t even 8. We also didn’t do anything special at home. The Christmas tree that we would have was symbolic to a notion too foreign to us. Always synthetic, and only a reminder that we were in December or January.
If I’m missing something, please tell me what was so important about my upbringing?
If I’m missing something, please tell me what was so important about my upbringing?
Well, it did teach you a language, right? Probably nonverbal forms of communication, too. You have a way of relating to the world that is either the result of your upbringing, or a conscious decision to evaluate and reject the aspects of your upbringing that were either dysfunctional or irrelevant to how you operate in the world today. I can’t tell you what was important about your upbringing, because I have no idea what either you are like, or what your upbringing was like. I do know that you had one, though. And you didn’t really “raise yourself”, no matter how disinterested or unavailable your parents were (hey, I grew up in an abusive alcoholic family, and have been known to claim I was “raised by wolves”—another nod to “La Lubu” as a blogging name. But I still didn’t “raise myself”—both my family and culture of origin and my environmental surroundings had an indelible influence.)
What language do you dream in? Language affects the way you think. Do you even dream, or remember your dreams? Dreaming is either important or irrelevant depending on one’s upbringing. What subjects did you enjoy in school? What interests did you have in your past? Do you have the same interests now? What do you do for a living? What books do you read? Where do you find beauty in this world? For good or ill, those decisions are affected by your upbringing. Even a toxic upbringing.
@ 27:
No, and I didn’t say that.
I said that claiming there is a “A White Culture” implies that all pink skinned people (I’m not pink skinned, but I am “white”) have a similar culture and/or cultural experience. Note the indefinite article “A” in front of “White Culture”.
The foods that are most familiar to everywhere that I “grew up” (because I moved a lot) aren’t on the main aisles. And yet, there are entire cities and states where I can go and find them on the main aisle. The (other than Christmas and the national holidays) holidays that were important where I grew up don’t exist, except in culturally-appropriated ways in other parts of the country. The RELIGION that was most dominant (and still is there), isn’t as dominant where I live now, but it is certainly growing. The definition of “Family”? Nope, not the same — but entire regions in the U.S. use the same definition. Second most commonly heard language? Different. Patron saints? Different. Okay to have a patron saint? That is also different. Your aunts and uncles aren’t related to you? Happens all the time where I live — perfectly normal.
What you seem to be saying — or at least basing your argument on — isn’t “White Culture”, it’s “Hollywood Culture”.
Nobody reads sociolinguistics in the U.S. anymore I guess.
@ 32: La Lubu
Then I’d say a conscious objection to how I was raised. Not necessarily because it was dysfunctional per se, but because it didn’t fit who I was.
I transitioned from socially male to socially female (body-wise it was pretty neutral from the start), and first met with a block from both parents. They certainly didn’t raise me for me to question my social sex. They probably didn’t imagine someone could do so. I did this as a young adult, and it is counter (or at least entirely different) to how I was raised. I say transitioning socially because this is where it matters to people. I wasn’t disowned, and am not treated as a pariah by my own parents, nevertheless it took them time to understand what I was doing and why (and my father probably doesn’t understand the why yet, after nearly 3 years).
I have no sisters, am the eldest of four children. I have three younger brothers. I was not encouraged in any way to do anything that would favorize transitioning. How I was raised socially speaking certainly didn’t contribute to my transition. Probably would have been worst in the 50s, with more rigid roles. Or with religious parents, potentially using arguments from it to disown me.
The fact is: I was ready to be disowned, living in the street, potentially giving up my life, to be able to live finally. I assumed from the start I would receive no support, or very little.
Sorry to be a bit off-topic. Just saying how I don’t see my being raised one way doing more than a tiny bit. Values I was taught, I accepted or rejected them. I learned other values from other sources (not family) as well.
I learned French as a child, English as a teen, and now speak both fluently, write both near-perfectly (actually am better in English). Qualities making me learn the language to the level I did (perfectionism) are not taught.
Pretty sure that having GIDNOS, AS, DID, AIS*, affected me more profoundly than whichever way I was raised.
*Gender Identity Disorder Not Otherwise Specified – in case of intersex condition.
Asperger Syndrome
Dissociative Identity Disorder
Androgen Insensitivity Syndrome
Me either… especially since I feel that southern white people have a very strong culture. But rednecks = bad, and we are not supposed to talk about that on a liberal blog. Subject closed.
But this whole thread leaves out a large segment of the country. It’s like we’re completely invisible. (Why am I not surprised?)
I’m all the more surprised to discover that white culture in the Deep South is the same as in the Southwest. Hell, I bet the folks who believe in The White Monoculture think the culture in the Florida Parishes of Louisiana is the same as in the panhandles of Florida and Texas.
FCH,
“I’m all the more surprised to discover that white culture in the Deep South is the same as in the Southwest. Hell, I bet the folks who believe in The White Monoculture think the culture in the Florida Parishes of Louisiana is the same as in the panhandles of Florida and Texas.”
Correct me if I’m mistaken, but I don’t believe anyone said anything about monoculture. There isn’t a single ‘black culture’, or ‘latino/a’ culture, or ‘native american’ culture, to the best of – my – knowledge, so why is there suddenly one – white – culture?
Because the thread starting quote said “Of course, the very definition of culture necessitates that white people have a culture.”
It’s that pesky word “a” and the implication of several posters here that “white culture” can be described in a way to encompasses regional differences. I grew up in New Orleans. The “white culture” there is different from the “white culture” where I live now (Central Texas).
Whites have cultureS which are heavily influenced by region, as well as their own ethnicity (or not) with degree of assimilation into American “culture” being a strong determinant. My father wan’t born here, and many of my relatives are very recent immigrants as well. So, the family traditions, etc. I was raised within are not mainstream White Americana for the most part. Unless knowing about The Troubles in Ireland, and yelling at people who get drunk on St. Patrick’s Day because they are “honorarily Irish” (and all Irish are drunks) is part of White American Culture.
The “white people have no culture” meme is really misleading, as a lot of people here already pointed out.
I notice a lot of people say that when they’re trying to justify appropriating stuff from other cultures. There’s an element of unwholesome self-pity to it.
The feeling of “no culture” is just a flavor of something universal that’s been going on ever since human beings started gathering together into cities. Urban living… isolating media technology… feeling cut off from family and roots and past… alienation… getting cut off from ancestral traditions… lack of community ties… lack of symbolic meaning to everyday activities… whether you’re a middle-class white teenager from Peoria or living in a refugee camp in Bangladesh, you’re feeling parallel loss. You’re missing connections with other people and missing a sense of purpose to your life. You can miss these things in the midst of poverty or plenty. Saying it’s something only white people experience is kind of elitist.
Everybody has a culture.
It also irritates me when people look down on heavily touristed places and say “that place isn’t worth visiting anymore because they lost their culture.” No, just because they’re trying to sell you tacky stuff to make a living doesn’t mean they lack a culture.
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I am Daisy Bond’s WASP girlfriend. Hello.
There is a common notion that there is one monolithic ‘normal’ white USAmerican culture, but I’ve found myself challenging the notion lately. I appreciate atlasien’s comment, because I feel that it gets at the root of the ‘cultureless’ feeling described in this thread. I have a culture. I realize this the more I analyze. But I also do feel a disconnection from community, natural surroundings, and spirit. My isolated, individualist, materialistic culture and upbringing make me feel like I’m missing something. My parents are atheists raised by protestants, and I received minimal religious education, unlike Daisy. My family wasn’t very social when I was growing up, and neither was I. Anyway, I have had to find/create my own ways to connect with others, and through that challenge I’ve grown as a person.
But when I have feelings of being without culture, it may be because I have few built in ways to connect with others.
Macon D,
I’ve been accused of “acting white”, and I laugh it off, because it’s a joke about stereotypes. I also laugh when people say I’m “acting Chinese”, because again, it is a joke about stereotypes. What does it really mean to “act Chinese” and “act Native American”; do these phrases really mean something serious and refer to something real?
I don’t really want to touch the comments here where people are complaining that there cannot be white culture because white culture is not monolithic, as these comments are contrasting the heterogeneity of white culture with the assumed homogeneity of black, Latin@, Native American, Chinese, Sri Lankan, etc. cultures.
FurryCatHerder,
Okay, this is a different criticism. I supposed that I worded it poorly, and I should have said, “Of course, the very definition of culture necessitates that a white person has a culture.”
For Julie…the Civil War was a draft war. There were a lot of “white” people (primarily of Irish and German descent) that didn’t want to fight to free black slaves simply because they believed (thanks in part to opposing government propaganda) that it would further impair their ability to find work. Another issue was the fact that if you could afford it, you could pay the government $300 to get out of being drafted, or hire some poor guy trying to support his family to take your place. Blacks, at that time, were not considered citizens and were therefore exempt from the draft. I’m sure you can see just how this could create an intense bitterness amongst economically challenged “whites”.
http://www.press.uchicago.edu/Misc/Chicago/317749.html