Why? Because I’d be all over killing the bad guy. Not to mention not being willing to play the victim who gets held hostage or dropped off buildings or whatever. In fact as fantasy/horror/romance books go I’d make a terrible damsel in distress period. Because my first thought has always been that she shouldn’t be waiting around to be saved, she should be trying to save herself. Which isn’t you know…part of the formula or anything. On some level it has always felt like the women in those books weren’t quite representative of me (unless we start talking alter egos ala Jem, or secret identities, or even women like Eowyn who dressed as a man to fight for her land) and yet like a lot of genre fiction fans of color I kept reading them. Kept watching the shows and even going to the movies despite the fact that the women didn’t act the way I would or look the way I do. Because I grew up on a steady diet of Dark Shadows, Flash Gordon, Twilight Zone, Doctor Who, and Isaac Asimov.
And now? Now I’ve got people claiming that readers of color didn’t exist until the advent of the Internet. For the record? We were here at the start and we will be here at the end. Lois (Bujold in case you haven’t been following the latest incarnation of Race Fail to know that she’s the one eating her knee in that comment) seems to think that con attendance = fan. I can’t imagine why there would be so few POC at conventions held in the wake of segregation and Jim Crow. Or why fans of color today often prefer to discuss the books they love with people who don’t think the Open Source Boob Project is the height of social behavior. Oh wait, I’ve never seen the point to spending a ton of money to hang out with people who think my perspective is unwelcome or who think they should be able to touch me because they feel like it. I suspect I am not alone.
For the last time, just because it is not happening in full view of white people does not mean that it is not happening. I am so tired of dealing with this attitude that wanting sci-fi to represent and respect the reality of life as a person of color is somehow asking too much. Especially when the reaction from white authors who are told “Hey you’re doing it wrong” is to say “Well then I won’t do it at all” like we’re supposed to be a-okay with being erased, ignored, or misrepresented just to get a few crumbs from the table. I did an interview this weekend about Verb Noire, and one of the questions was about our hopes and fears for the press. You know what? As long as at least one new perspective is brought to the table of genre fiction I’ll count it as a success. Because it is time for the superhero’s girlfriend to learn to fight back and for the woman to ride as herself to save her people. It is time for the books to reflect more than one view of strength, of femininity, and of reality. And it shouldn’t be a case of “Well there’s this one author or this one perspective that represents *those* people” but I know that breaking the mainstream of this habit of viewing POC culture as monolithic is going to take a lot more than just attending cons and putting out books. We can’t be the only ones doing the work to change the face of fiction. So, less assuming and more listening? Probably for the best.
Lois (Bujold in case you haven’t been following the latest incarnation of Race Fail to know that she’s the one eating her knee in that comment) seems to think that con attendance = fan. I can’t imagine why there would be so few POC at conventions held in the wake of segregation and Jim Crow.
Bujold sounds like a one-woman Race Fail.
I am a little confused though by what sounds like two distinct, albeit intersecting, concerns. Finding the damsels in distress of genre fiction to be unrepresentative of oneself seems like a concern applicable to all women, and not peculiar to PoC (and I’m not clear on why men of color would have a problem with this false representation of women more than white men would). Same with Open Source Boob Project, which got criticized by Moe @ Jezebel (not exactly the voice of PoC) and many other white women, but I don’t recall having heard being greatly criticized by men of color. In short, you seem to be voicing some concerns that are particular to women (the damsels, the gropeathon) and some that are particular to PoC (treated as invisible in the SF/F fanbase based on their unwillingness to attend cons in the wake of Jim Crow), and obviously these will overlap for women of color, but not for all PoC.
As I am attempting to cement my reputation as the man with a link to a webcomic for any topic, here you go.
—Myca
How can there be so much fail?!?
Seconding what PG said. Were you comparing the experience of being marginalized due to gender to being marginalized as a POC? It sounds like you’re saying that white women would easily relate to the damsels in distress, and that not wanting to be rescued is a POC thing.
LMB has been my fave sf author for a long time, and I’ve also felt for awhile that the biggest weakness in her books is the lack of POC. Absolutely, her comment was stupid (though I’ve made dumber ones) but I don’t think it was intentional, cuz this is an author who’s put a lot of thought into reaching readers, wherever they may be.
Well, she apologized and it seemed to be a sincere one, not one of those crappy i’m sorry if I hurt your feelings type. Unfortunately, it’s sort of buried in the comments.
I know the romance genre isn’t the main focus here, but not all romance heroines are damsels in distress. In fact, plenty of them aren’t. In addition, although the genre does have issues with regards to race, there are quite a lot of African American romance heroines.
That apology comes without a promise to do better, and with (as is pointed out in the comments) no thank you for the correction to her misconceptions.
Over in the race fail in the fat acceptance blogs, last year or so, there was a big “can I still like [celebrity] even if they’re racist?” and I was new in the community, so I never said “Well, if you’re white you probably have a lot of practice loving racists, so probably you can. Can you avoid it?”
Bujold’s the first SF person I’ve felt that way about. God damn it. At least she had the grace to shut up quickly.
A note to a couple of the earlier commenters: I think that segregating race and gender issues is a privilege enjoyed only by those of us who are not subjected to both racism and sexism.
somebody42,
Since I’m a woman of color who has been subjected to racism, sexism, xenophobia, religious bias, and probably some type of bigotry that doesn’t have a label, I’m not sure to whom you’re directing that.
If the authors only sold to con attendees, they’d still be self-publishing by ‘xeroxing’.
Well, if you could sell to every person who attends any con ever, that would probably help, she said in an off-topic way.
I think it’s okay for karynthia to discuss her positioning as a marginalized fan without having to dissect which bits of her oppression come from her status as a poc and which come from her status as a woman, and which from interactions. I mean, I see what people are saying in their reactions to the piece that they’re not always clear to what things she’s specifically referring, but I think it can be sort of ellided in a useful, fluid way.
Of course, she did not technically say that. She wrote that “never before have so many Readers of Color existed to *have* the conversation, or been able to communicate with each other to do so.” The first part seems likely enough. The second (and the role of the internet in communication) seems like a truism to me, although she made it worse for herself by blurring together the two parts of her statement.
hf,
Maybe I should note the complete irrelevance of posting US census figures to prove a point about the small and specialized, but multinational, population that reads SF.
Or maybe I should just point out that LMB was wrong, and you are wrong. Fans of color don’t come to cons in any great numbers (except WisCon, and they’re still underrepresented), but they exist and have had their own organizations and spaces for decades. They have also written SF for as long as SF has existed, as the Dark Matter anthologies have proven. This happened long before the internet.
The internet just makes us more visible to white people.
@PG
I am a WOC. I wrote from my perspective as a WOC who is tired of the ongoing race and feminism fail in sci-fi. And going by the MOC I know? There were quite a few of them who found the OSBP reprehensible, but their posts didn’t garner anywhere near as much attention as those by women who were (or would be) directly effected at a con. The idea that I (or anyone else) could speak to every possible concern for POC withs ci-fi seems a bit much. YMMV.
Really, do you have to keep holding The Ferrett up as the reason fan conventions suck when even he admits the Open Source Boob Project was probably the single dumbest thing he ever posted to the Internet?
Yes, it was his Dethroning Moment of Suck but I much prefer to remember him as having been one hell of an editor instead of someone who made an ass of himself on the Internet.
Ferrett renouncing his Massively Bad Idea ™* in no way actually alters the fundamental nature of a certain type of fan that goes to cons and the rather poisonous, twisted con culture that has coalesced in their wake, any more than any single individual renouncing sexism or racism makes a culture suddenly egalitarian and just.
* And did he ever really do this in a meaningful, public way? Last I knew he was still sounding resentfully defensive about the whole thing in a way that rather reminded me of “And I would have gotten away with it, too, if it weren’t for you meddling feminists!” but I’ll admit to being someone who desired even less contact with him post-OCBP than I did beforehand when he was utterly unknown to me.
No, all the apologies I saw were still rotten with privilege and lack of attempt to understand what was going on.
Yay wiscon.
Color me shocked.
Yay, POC-to-Wiscon project.
All I recall seeing from Ferrett on OSBP is along the lines of “all the women I spoke to told me they agreed to it, and I don’t feel any social pressure to comply, which means they don’t either” or “we who go to cons are above your petty middle-class morality.”
Mandolin,
I see what you are saying about the value of putting forward one’s experiences in a fluid way; I just tend to analyze problems with a view toward being able to explain to someone who’s initially not getting it why this is a problem. E.g. I look at Karnythia’s post as having excellent explanations for what apparently was confusing some white SFF folks, but if I were referring to it to talk to a white male SFF fan who’s wondering, “Gosh, why don’t we have more WoC SFF fans,” and hopefully expand his understanding, I’d want to be sure I was clear about the issues that affect women, those that affect PoC, and those that particularly affect WoC.
Karnythia,
The idea that I (or anyone else) could speak to every possible concern for POC with sci-fi seems a bit much.
I don’t think I propounded such an idea, so again, not clear on to whom that’s directed. I commented because I thought you were putting forward good points about why PoC have been invisible to much of the white SFF community, but that I was getting confused by which of the concerns that were particularly problematic for you as a woman versus particularly problematic for you as a PoC and then perhaps those that were particularly problematic for you as a WoC.
You note that some MoC were troubled by OSBP — OK, but to a much greater degree than white men were? I have to say that not all of the the SFF fan MoC I know thought immediately that this was a horrible, horrible idea. That’s why I didn’t understand how OSBP was a clear PoC concern, rather than a manifestation of sexism so deep-seated in some SFF fans — not just white ones — that they don’t even realize it. And it also seems potentially exclusionary of white women who were very vocal against OSBP to frame it as a PoC issue rather than a women-of-all-races issue.
I was getting confused by which of the concerns that were particularly problematic for you as a woman versus particularly problematic for you as a PoC and then perhaps those that were particularly problematic for you as a WoC.
PG,
You keep insisting on finding some neat separation between issues of gender and issues of race and issues of intersection. I would hazard to guess that you aren’t a woman of color yourself, because this insistence of yours smacks of privilege — ironically the same privilege I occasionally hear from men of color, who also demand that women of color somehow divvy themselves up into gender issues and race issues to make things neat and simple for them.
The issues can’t be divvied up; it’s not neat and simple; it’s not about you anyway; so please stop asking. And if you had to tell some white male about it, I would hope you’d send him online to find the many, many articles that have been written by people who actually experience and understand these issues, since you don’t.
Nojojojo, as PG wrote in comment #9, she is a WOC.
nojojojo,
[HEAVY DELETION TO BE LESS TACKY.] Having an analytic style of thought — even to the point of being annoyingly pedantic/dogmatic — isn’t forbidden to WoC.
And if you had to tell some white male about it, I would hope you’d send him online to find the many, many articles that have been written by people who actually experience and understand these issues, since you don’t.
If in your experience, people who aren’t getting something that’s mentioned in casual conversation will learn more from being told to go online to find articles, than from having a conversation about it even with someone whose own understanding is imperfect, God bless you. It’s never been true of my interactions.
Well, this was his final word on the matter. Basically, it comes down to “It worked out for me and my friends, but the only reason it didn’t Go Horribly Wrong is because we were lucky. It was a bad idea and, by talking it up on the Internet, I hurt a lot of people, and that was wrong.”
Whether you find his final words meaningful or not, I’ll leave to you to decide. This is getting off-topic anyway, so I won’t talk about it any more.
@Pg
It may not be forbidden, but it isn’t necessarily going to get other people to sit down and attempt to break things down for you until you’re happy with the details either. My concerns (and my life) are intersectional. I don’t parse things as only being a problem for me as a woman, a POC, a WOC, a person with a disability, a mother, a wife, a daughter…you get the picture? I’m a lot of things and I’d spend the rest of my life talking about issues on an individual basis without ever *doing* anything about them. That’s simply not my style. I’m…complicated on my best day and so are my issues with the ongoing shenanigans.
PG,
My apologies for making assumptions, then. I usually only get “partitioned” by men of color and white women, so I jumped to conclusions.
And in my experience, white men who aren’t “getting it” from a casual conversation aren’t interested in getting it and are wasting my time, and telling them to go look up something online at least gets them out of my hair.
But because I can’t sleep, I’ll take a stab at answering your question, belatedly and tiredly.
Let’s take the stereotype of women as damsels in distress, for example. This stereotype almost never gets applied to black women, because black women have historically had to fight to be perceived as feminine, with all that implies. Society does not think of black women as delicate, nor as needing or being worthy of rescue if they get into trouble. More often than not, black women get blamed/shamed if they end up in a situation where they need help, because they “should’ve known better” or “should’ve been tougher” or “should’ve kept their legs closed” or any number of should’ves that sometimes, but not as often, get applied to white women.
As a result of these attitudes, along with Jim Crow and societal/governmental policies designed to destroy the black family, black women have become extremely self-sufficient. Which is why even the “tough” women of comics and SF don’t really represent us — because in the comics, they’re exceptions (to the norm of “delicate” white womanhood) and are treated as such. Tough women are the rule, for black womanhood.
And yet we’re still women, socialized to believe in a concept of womanhood centered around “delicacy”. So there’s a part of us that might actually like to be rescued, if it could be done in a way that didn’t demean us; a part that might think it’s nice to be able to rely on a male character for a change. And yes, this applies to white women too. But it happens for white women in fiction, often — they get the romantic ideal, the rescue, the treatment as a precious thing on a regular basis. They don’t necessarily want it, but they get it. We don’t. Not often, anyway.
So seeing black female characters treated as a damsel in distress would, while sexist, still be an improvement on the usual stereotype. Not ideal. The ideal would be to see black women, like all women, depicted as… people. But the routes black women and white women take to reach that ideal are going to be very different.
Just an example. Does that clarify why these issues are impossible to separate?
Pingback: Isms in fiction: My next project « Jem’s Lair
Karnythia,
Fair enough if you don’t parse things in a sectioned way; it has just been my experience that it’s easier to build coalitions if I can say, “Look, this applies for all women, not just WoC.” White women are the majority of women in this country and letting them think something is not also a problem for them decreases the likelihood they’ll make a self-interested kind of effort at changing things.
nojojojo,
OK, we have different experiences of white men who aren’t getting it right off the bat — I find some of them to be capable of better understanding when given more explanation, whereas if I tell them to go educate themselves, they feel dismissed and made to look stupid.
Your “ain’t I a woman” explanation makes a lot of sense, it’s just much more than was in the OP’s first paragraph, which looked like a pretty straightforward criticism of the “damsel in distress” and the kind of criticism that most white women I know also would feel applies to them. You’re making a distinction that the damsel could be occasionally nice to try on for black women but the opportunity never presents. The OP’s statements about “it is time for the superhero’s girlfriend to learn to fight back and for the woman to ride as herself to save her people” don’t really include any of that curiosity about what it would be like to be the damsel.
PG,
I’m not speaking for the OP; I thought that was understood. Nor am I trying to explain black women at large to white women or men at large; I’m not really interested in ambassadorship anymore. I’ve had too many experiences of pouring energy into explaining things for white men and women, softening my tone so they’ll listen, reconfiguring my language to, as you say, make it relevant to them — make it about them — and I’m tired of doing that. It’s too much of a time-sink. As you note with your Sojourner quote, women of color have been explaining this stuff for generations now. The ones who listen are the ones who make an effort to listen, not the ones who endlessly demand that we explain again and again in kinder, gentler, more white-centric ways. They’re the ones who are reading Sojourner Truth anyway, on their own, and yes, going to the damn internet to do a bit of Googling. That’s really not too much to ask. It’s not like the old days when you had to go ::gasp:: read a book. So I find myself less inclined to bother explaining.
And, as typically happens when we pause to make things palatable for white readers, we’ve gotten far off-topic. I’ll stop here before we derail further.
@PG
I’ve (personally) long since given up on being viewed as a damsel outside of my marriage. I am aware that other women (particularly of color) are still looking at that as desirable and I don’t fault them for it. I would probably feel the same way except I married Prince Charming and my beefs these days are with him being a fussbudget. Separately…I’m not really trying to speak to white women or get them onboard or anything else with this post. I’m the one that wrote “Feminism still isn’t for black women” last February and I still feel like this idea of solidarity is not quite in the best interests of WOC.