The title of this post comes from this article from the Chicago Tribune, about homophobia in the South. And yes, the woman who said it was being serious.
From later on in the article:
Since he came out at age 14, Runyon, the son of a preacher, has grown used to Christians telling him that his sexual orientation is an abomination and quoting the Bible to make their point. Some offered to pray for him; others threatened to burn a cross on his front lawn if he didn’t renounce his sexuality.
“Christianity stopped making sense to me, so when I turned 18, I left the church. I just didn’t feel welcome,” said Runyon, who later moved to Chattanooga. “People are locked in ideas from 20 years ago. I was taught that homosexuality is a sin and that gay people were going to hell. So I decided to stop going to church and just be gay.”
Rev. Matthew Nevels, a former Southern Baptist minister, said he left the convention after church members shunned his son when he was dying of AIDS. Nevels, of Chattanooga, is president of Parents, Family and Friends of Lesbians and Gays.
Of course, the kind of “Christians” who shunned Nevels’ son don’t represent all Christians; not all Christians are assholes. But those who are assholes sure manage to make all the other Christians look bad, don’t they? It’s really unfair to the decent Christians out there.
Via Mouse Words..
It’s extremely unfair; my best friend is a Christian, and he’d sooner bite off his tongue than utter the derisive words Runyon heard. It goes against his beliefs, as a Christian, to be loving, understanding, and tolerant of those who are different.
Kudos to the young man for having the inner strength to survive such a hate-filled environment.
Ok, so I totally bungled the above. LOL
What I MEANT was that it goes against his beliefs to be hateful, to NOT be understaning, etc.
Bleagh. I’m off to bed.
It is certainly representative of the Christians
that I meet here in Texas.
(Personally, recently a teenaged gay boy that I
know was driven to suicide by his Christian father
and his church)
Frankly as nearly as I can see Christians in the
US are divided between the true hating bigots
(and I would include that Catholic church in this group) and the “tolerant” bigots who are sympathetic and would never actually bash a
gay, although they consider them sub-human sinners.
I would place the precentage of “Christians” who
actually consider gays to be equal at less than
10 percent.
As you can tell, I, too, have little use for most Christians :))
Stories like this make me sick. Luckily, the opposite is happening in some places. One of my dearest friends is the gay son of a midwestern minister. My friend’s father is a very traditional Christian (and a somewhat typical midwesterner). A few months ago my friend called me, very emotional, to tell me that his father was preaching to his congregation that gay marriage was something that they should absolutely support. Like most people, his father was never intentionally bigoted, but it took knowing and loving a gay person to get him to think about the subject.
Patrick, I’m sorry that it’s representative of the Christians you’ve met in Texas. The ones I know in New England are pretty varied–some anti-gay, some indifferent, and some quite accepting (such as the NH Episcopalians who now have a gay bishop).
The religious people I know here (including Baptists and Mormons) are pretty accepting of gays and SSM.
I have no problems with Christians (or people of any other religion, for that matter). I do have a problem with broad brush generalizations.
I have met both “loving” and “hate filled” Christians. Fortunately, most of the Christians I have met are more the loving sort.
As Amp has mentioned in other posts, we’re getting a pretty good look at local Christians, at least the more vocal ones, here in Portland OR at the moment what with all the flap over gay marriage. I’ve been following reasonably closely, and I’ve heard at least as much pro- as anti-SSM sentiment from self-identified Christians. I have not compiled any hard local data, but the US is generally about 80% some flavour of Christian, and polls consistently show Portland to be pretty evenly divided between pro- and anti-SSM, which means that even if all non-Christians are pro, the Christians can only be split 50-30 against. Superficial as that “analysis” is, it does suggest that bigotry and hatred are far from endemic in the Christian church. (Obdisclosure: I’m an atheist.)
“but the US is generally about 80% some flavour of Christian, and polls consistently show Portland to be pretty evenly divided between pro- and anti-SSM, which means that even if all non-Christians are pro, the Christians can only be split 50-30 against. Superficial as that “analysis” is, it does suggest that bigotry and hatred are far from endemic in the Christian church.”
Actually a little too superficial to mean much of anything – other than that Portland is atypical
(and I’d be interested to know if Portland’s christian percentages matched the national averages).
You would certainly find a far different story
among the Christians here in Texas.
Patrick,
You gave us the story about your friend who committed suicide months ago, and you always mention it. I’m sorry that happened, but quit milking it will you? It does not, by any stretch of the imagination, make you any kind of authority concerning gays, Christians, or bigotry, so stop exploiting your dead “friend”. Stop blaming the kids dad and the church too. Maybe your friend was just a coward, did you ever think of that? But now I’m just being a hateful bigot. Shut my mouth and fan my brow.
Quadratic,
That post was hateful and in the poorest of taste.
“I’m sorry that happened, but quit milking it will you?”
No I will not. I don’t reall care if you think that I am “milking” something, it was painful
and I believe important, at least to me.
“Maybe your friend was just a coward, did you ever think of that?”
No I don’t believe so – I have personal knowledge
of the kind of cruelty that can be exerted towards
gay teenagers, but I cannot imagine how it would
have been to be in his position, being sent to
christian camp and constantly prayed over and
told that you were a sinner – and having your father be the chief disapprover.
“But now I’m just being a hateful bigot.”
Yes you are – both a bigot and an apologist for
bigots and bigotry.
The reason I am not letting it go is because
there are people like you who obviously seem
to think that theeir bigotry is just in good
fun – they deny how much pain they inflict
on others.
Oooh, can I jump on the “milk wagon” ? This April is the second anniversary of a close friend of mine’s death by self-inflicted gunshot. Yes, he was gay. Yes, he was from a very ultra-Fundie background. Yes, he was mostly estranged from his family. No, he wasn’t a huge fan of marriage, but I still can’t help wishing he’d lived to see the County Chairs move to legalize SSM. I think he would have been pleased, albeit grumpily.
Quad, bite me.
Quadratic, that was fucked up.
Yes you are – both a bigot and an apologist for
bigots and bigotry.
Fine, if thinking that suicide is a cowardly, selfish waste of an amazing gift; yes, I’m a bigot, and you are a victim, and a victim apologist.
About your animosity towards Christians, let me start by saying that I’m an agnostic because I think it’s arrogant to assume that anyone can comprehend the true nature of the universe. I was indoctrinated into the Catholic church as a child, but always disagreed with Christians on the whole “son of God” thing. But I do know that there is a gigantic silent majority of Christians that love all people as brothers and sisters *ack*. I don’t know what else in my post led you to believe I am a bigot and a bigot apologist. I have no hatred toward anyone based on race, religion, or sexual orientation. It does seem that you, however, have a prejudice against Christians based on tragic personal experience. Does this make you a bigot? Probably not, but you should understand that it’s kind of like hating blacks because a black person perpetrated something on you or someone you love. (which angered me and prompted the opening of my big rude yap, as it were) Keep in mind that fundie freaks, clinic bombers, racists, bigots, and right-wing fascists get all the press. They do not, in any way, represent any majority of Christians. You have a right to be angry, but it’s no excuse for prejudice
Okay, this is way over the line. Not because of the politics; I don’t really think there’s much political content in this particular post. What’s over the line is your failure to treat the other posters here with basic decency.
So I’m asking you to go away, Quadratic. Don’t post here for a while – not until June, at the very least.
If I do see posts from you in the meanwhile, they’ll be deleted. But I’m hoping you’ll have the respect for this forum to stay away for a while just because I’ve ask you to. If you want to discuss this further, email me privately.
Up front disclaimer: I’m an atheist who was raised in the Brethren Church. My twin brother is gay but I am straight. Now that that is out of the way….
I don’t find that most Christians are hateful–overtly. Most Christians, in my experience are very nice people who treat the people around them very well even if those people are gay. However, that does not excuse the actions they take and attitudes they hold when gay people aren’t around.
In discussions concerning Fred Phelps, my brother has brought up a good point to me before. Fred Phelps only exists and is able to spread his hatred because other Christians allow it. Homophobia in the church only exists because the church allows it (and in fact preaches it). The point is that if those Christians who claimed not to hate homosexuals, who claimed not to support homophobia were to stand up and check their brothers and sisters Christian homophobia would disappear. By letting their churches and other institutions preach hatred and take actions that harm gay men and lesbians, even those gay-friendly Christians are engaging in a kind of hatred of neglect.
This might seem fair to all the decent Christians out there, but I don’t think it is.
Floyd–
“Hatred of neglect.” I like that. That’s an excellent way of describing it, and it’s absolutely true.
Around here, back when the Bumper Sticker Wars were still being fought, there was one piece of epigrammatic wisdom I found particularly trenchant: “Bad things happen when good people do nothing.”
Or the ACLU’s motto: “Because freedom won’t protect itself.”
I am guilty of this particular brand of hatred of neglect myself. I have not announced to my parents, who are Christian, that I think homosexuality is not sinful, nor that the fact that they will be getting a son-in-law and not a daughter-in-law is more out of the luck of my draw than out of any heterosexuality on my part.
And that day in church, when the pastor stated from the pulpit that a former member of the church who had since formed a committed relationship with another woman was “no longer a lady; she [was] a lesbian,” and said that anyone who disagreed with him was not welcome to be in the church or ever come back to it– I didn’t say anything. I left, and never went back, but I didn’t say anything.
And when I was 20, and my grandmother, who is a bat, raged (at 90 deciBels) about those gays and their plot to make people accept them (as opposed to what? running them out of town with pitchforks and a tank?) and be treated as “special,” and how disgusting they were, because all of them went to gay pride parades, thrusting their sexuality into everyone else’s faces, I told her that she couldn’t judge all people from one small, vocal group claiming to represent them, but I didn’t come right out and say that I didn’t think there was anything wrong with homosexuality and she could go ahead and disown me, I didn’t care.
So the only thing I have to say about this, I guess, is to Patrick: Patrick, don’t ever be afraid to talk about things that are painful to you. Don’t ever stop talking about them. People like the lesbian lady from my church need all the backup they can get, and a lot of the time they don’t get it from the people who should be providing it, people like me. Milk it for all it’s worth. It’s important enough to bear repetition, I think.
[Applauds Morphienne]
“Patrick, don’t ever be afraid to talk about things that are painful to you”
Thanks. I admit that it is still a little personal,
but I know that if I mention something like this I
am open to charges of “milking” it, self-pity, etc.
and I’m prepared for that.
After you are called a fag for 40 years, it loses
a lot of it’s sting :))
But our children are not so toughened up.
What I see much too much of is people “debating”
gays as if it were a parlor game or an intellectual
exercise – they seem to have no awareness that
for some people it is, literally, deadly serious.
I would like to put more of a human face on the
“debate”.
One of the unique characteristics of the position
of gays is that, unlike other minorities, they
have no natural support system in their own family or
community.
A black child persecuted at school can at least return
home to their black family and receive support – a gay child is likely to return home and find even more disapproval – in some situations
(Corpus Christi, TX comes to mind) the isolation
can be overwhelming.
Um, this might be off-topic by now, considering the tangent that the comments have taken, but oh well…
The quote from Ms. Griffin that appears in the title of this entry continues on to say, “They want to be able to commit sodomy without it being called a crime, and then cover up their sins with our tax dollars.”
Is it just me, or does this sound like somebody with a gross lack of understanding of, and regard for, the concept of separation of church and state? And if they think they don’t have to obey the Bill of Rights, what makes them think they’re going to get gay people to comply with an anti-gay-marriage amendment? [True, they’d comply on the surface, because they couldn’t have legally valid marriages, but I’m sure some would go ahead and have illegal ones.]
And yes, people like this do make other Christians look bad. Ignoring the Constitution of the country you live in, and claiming you’re doing it because of your religion, is a sure-fire way to make your religion look like a bunch of selfish nitwits. [I’ve known homophobic pagans, too, but I haven’t heard one claim paganism as a reason for it.]
I’d say more, but it’d get way off-topic.