From Nihlistic Kid, Here’s some editorial comments on a story by author Bev Vincent. The story was written from the point of view of a male protagonist. These comments are all from the same editor:
“It’s quite a challenge for a writer of one sex to explore writing from the perspective of the opposite sex. Bev Vincent has not done a convincing job.”
“The story seems far too personal, introspective and emotional for a man”
“And I can’t think of many guys from [setting] who call home every Sunday afternoon to talk to their family” [Emphasis his or hers].
“Most men don’t think deeply about the dewy greenness of nature.”
“She needs to write more convincing [sic] from a man’s perspective.”
The thing is, Bev Vincent is a man. The editor just assumed Bev was female, based on the name, and then projected all sorts of nonsense the editor “knew” about how women write on to the manuscript. Bev comments:
I’ve heard female writers talk about gender bias in the industry before, but it’s always been an abstract concept to me. Not something I’ve ever experienced. Oh, sure, people often think I’m female based on my name—it’s a common enough mistake, which I’ve had to deal with all my life. I like to tell the story about how I was almost assigned to the women’s dorm at university. However, I’ve never before had an editor criticize my writing based on a false assumption concerning my gender. Or make blatantly biased statements about the male perspective. […]
I pause here to note that this was the most autobiographical story I’ve ever written, and all the things that the editor complained about were my real observations and my real thoughts cast into the mind of a fictional character participating in fictional events. I did, in fact, call home every Sunday afternoon to talk to my parents, while they were still alive.
To compound his or her arrogance, the editor claims that my prose is “overly elegant,” which is presumably his or her way of saying that a man would never write or think in elegant terms.
This is a funny story, but it represents two kinds of sexism, both worthy of concern.
First of all, there’s the obvious sexism against female writers. (Was this incident only about prejudice against writers who with protagonists who aren’t of the same sex? No, it was not; the bit about “overly elegant” wasn’t about cross-sex writing, it was about discrimination against a writing style that is perceived as feminine. Criticism of female writers for being too “elegant” or “flowery” is, I’m told, a cliche that female science fiction and fantasy writers encounter often; and although the language is nice, the underlying gender politics are recognizable from decades ago, when Poul Anderson said “[Science fiction] remains more interested in the glamour and mystery of existence, the survival and triumph and tragedy of heroes and thinkers, than in the neuroses of some sniveling fagot.”
And there’s also obvious sexism against men here, who — at least, in this editor’s estimation — are rather limited in our ability to be loving towards our families, to appreciate nature, or basically to have an emotional life significantly deeper than a turnip’s.
Yet another one for the Reality is Unrealistic files.
I had better stop reading blog posts about all the FAIL in sci-fi, or at least not follow links to the original source material where teh fail is on “ah, my eyes! my eyes!” level of brilliant display. I’m just starting to dip my toe into the genre and it’s enough to turn me phobic.
I love it when this kind of stuff happens. It exposes how women’s work is blatently demeaned just because of woman did it.
PG:
The fail in mainstream lit is probably comparable, if less publicly online. Julia used to post here about it, but hasnt been posting on that subject as much. You dont get as many famous authors saying stupid shit on their own blogs because in general mainsteram lit writers are less active on the net as a group. (And I mean as a group”, they may be active individuals but the net is not a place where they congregate.
For instance, Julia and I both took classes from an extremely famous lit author who commonly criticized female characters for being frigid, slutty, or man-hating, but who often praised male characters for being misogynistic because it made them interesting.
Mandolin,
I know there are lots of mainstream authors who will say racist/misogynistic/etc. stuff; I guess what seems odd with sci-fi is that the people saying such things keep getting identified as otherwise all liberal/progressive/right-on. It’s that sort of thing that makes it extra-exasperating.
E.g., when you have someone mainstream discounting the worth of Toni Morrison’s work, it’s usually someone who identifies as conservative and won’t be pulling a Harlan Ellison-like move of “But I have done so much for the career of this OTHER black female writer…” When I talk to conservative white dudes who don’t like Toni Morrison, they freely acknowledge that they also don’t like Alice Walker, Maya Angelou, etc.; that they can’t name a favorite book by a black female author. It’s a self-centered view (“if these books don’t appeal to me in the five pages I read of them voluntarily, or the one I was forced to read in an English class, they must not be any good at all”), but it’s an easier one for me to grasp.
In contrast, there seems to be a lot more investment in the sci-fi genre in some version of “I can’t have said/done something racist/sexist, because I have so many black/female friends.” Conservatives will deny that their dismissal of black women’s writing is racist/sexist — it’s just the fault of black women for being so obsessed with dull stuff like oppression and not using strong manly short sentences — but they won’t pull the “my black female author friend” excuse.
PG:
That’s not true, though. The misogyny and racism comes strongly from liberal people in the lit world again. The person I mentioned above is just as progressive as any of the science fiction writers in question. You’re just not hearing these people publicly stick their feet in their mouths as frequently, but take it from people who’ve been working in the industry — the sentiments are there, and from people who are otherwise progressive.
I could give more examples if necessary, but I’d rather not on a public thread.
I love it when this kind of stuff happens. It exposes how women’s work is blatently demeaned just because of woman did it.
It made me think of an anecdote from an Ivy League scientist who transitioned from male to female. (She wrote a book, name is escaping me right now.) She recalled overhearing two colleagues, unaware that she was the same person they previously had known as a man, trashing her work after a presentation she gave. One was saying to the other, “Her brother’s work is so much better.”
There’s something gratifying – in a sick and twisted and unfortunate way – about really, really obvious sexism because nobody can deny it or explain it away.
Hi chingona. That scientist would be Ben Barres. There is an article on him in the NYT that is accessible if you login. He also published a fantastic article in Nature that contains the quote you remember with the genders reversed. Dr. Barres is a trans man who’s work was regarded as “so much better than his sister’s.”
So all a female scientist has to do to have her work taken seriously is get a sex change? You throw in the gay marriage opportunity, and it suddenly doesn’t seem so onerous to go to one of those genitalia exchanges…
Thanks, somebody.
Ouch. Looks like someone didn’t do a good enough job at his/her fact checking!
You know, I was just fuming about that guy earlier today. I can’t even remember what sparked it…
I think the reason I don’t post about stuff like that as often as I used to is because I don’t keep up with the mainstream literary community much anymore. Sometimes, ignorance really is bliss.
>“And I can’t think of many guys from [setting] who call home every Sunday afternoon to talk to their family”
Hey, wait a minute. I call home every Sunday to talk to Mom and Dad. Actually, I listen more than I talk, but hey.
As commenter #1 points out:
>Yet another one for the Reality is Unrealistic files.
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