I’m taking an informal survey. This is mostly for the women out there, but people of any sex or gender are welcome to join in the conversation. This particular issue happens to women more often, but is not exclusive to us.
Most women have had the experience of being approached or spoken to by men who bestow the compliment of their attention on us. Sometimes they simply comment on how we look, sometimes those comments are lewd and sexual. Sometimes they insist that we acknowledge them, either by following or getting in front of us. When we ignore them, blow them off, or express our displeasure at their actions and words, they often turn even uglier.
There are few women over the age of 13 who have never experienced this. And any number of feminist sites or blogs will educate folks on why this behavior is wrong.
What I want to know is: has it ever worked? Have you ever, when walking down the street, had some random stranger say to you, “You’re so hot,” and actually feel an urge to get his phone number and call him up for a date? After telling a guy “Sorry, I have a girlfriend/wife/boyfriend/husband/significant other,” have you ever felt compelled to cheat on said significant other when the guy persists despite these claims? When they’re aggressively attempting to intimidate you with verbal abuse or physicality, have you ever thought, “Hmm, this guy is certainly serious and also full of testosterone, I should rethink my position and go out with him!”?
I ask because there are days when I wonder if men actually think that some relationship or even one night stand might come from these actions. Of course I know that often it’s just patriarchal bullshit and power dynamics and that they are operating under the assuption that all women are or should be available to them as is their right. But honestly, after years and years of the same pattern:
Guy: Hey baby, you look fine.
Woman: You and your tiny dick can go to hell.
Guy: Yeah, you want me…
You would think that the message would sink in: this is not the way to get a date.
Perhaps I am giving such men too much credit. Maybe they don’t ever expect a date or even sex from these encounters They just do it for fun. But, on the off chance that these men do think this is a viable way to meet women, let’s make it clear.
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Does Street Harassment Ever Lead To True Love? (My Guess: No)
True love, I doubt very much.
Sex, yes. I forget the exact source and Google is no help, but some years ago there was a casual experiment done where the [male] investigators would basically go up to random women on the street and offer a reasonably polite sexual invitation. (Ignoring the fact that a public sexual invitation, given the culture, is pretty much never going to be something you can do in the real sense of “politely”.)
The investigators got slapped, yelled at, scolded, kicked out of stores, ignored…and laid. Something like one percent of the women they approached agreed to sex. A terrible proportion, you might think, if you don’t also reflect that it takes about thirty seconds to ask a woman for sex if you skip all the preparation and bourgeois conversational requirements. If all a man wants is random sex, it might make more rational sense to ask 50 women on the street (in a fifteen minute period) than to invest time and $ in pursuing a relationship.
Mostly I think those guys just enjoy harassing women, but it’s not completely crazy for them to think they might get laid, too.
As someone who walks everywhere, I always have a few cents to put in on this topic.
I’m a fan of the “men who do this do it for fun and profit” theory. I have occasionally seen women smile in response to a catcall, so perhaps that is occasionally rewarding for the catcaller, but I’m fairly certain it’s more of a means to establish dominance (“I see you, and you need to know that I see you”) or maybe even to reaffirm a personal belief that all women are ungrateful sourpusses?
But I’m going to pause here and draw a difference between “catcalling”, which is a word I’m using to cover all forms of one-way hollering that convey to a woman that she is the object of a sexual gaze, and “conversing.” I’ve had friendly exchanges with men who hollered something much less sexual (“you look peaceful!”). On other occasions, men in bars or concerts have begun chatting with me as a person, about topics other than my body, and some of these turned into friendships, relationships, or flings. But that would never happen just in a catcalling case. Catcallers above all are telling me that I enter any exchange with them at my own risk, that they expect dominance.
I did actually go on a couple of dates once with a guy who engaged in what I would now consider street harrasment, but:
1) I was staring as hard at him as we passed as he was at me. He looked remarkably like someone who used to go to my high school and I was trying to figure out if it was the guy I knew.
2) I was 16 and floored that someone evidently thought I was attractive.
I know better now.
I think Robert’s 1% statistic is plausible. The fact that Tucker Max has female fans who will degrade themselves to win his brief attention, is evidence of the existence of women with very little self-respect, who are so delighted to be the object of a man’s attention that they’ll actually respond positively to cat-calling.
Since you were sort of asking for anecdotes, I’m going to add two stories about “nice” catcallers that did get what they want, sort of. (1) a man followed me from the train station almost all the way to my apartment (which was walking distance): he kept engaging me in superpolite conversation, about my country of origin, about his job, about my job. He stopped following me after I gave him my phone number. (2) a man stopped me to ask the time and paid me an extravagant compliment. I expressed embarrassment; he said we should kiss and make up, and offered me his cheek. I kissed it and we parted ways.
In both cases, the men in question paired up some completely inappropriate behavior (following, asking for contact from a stranger) with extravagantly socially proper behavior (politeness, interest, verbal generosity). In both cases, I began the exchange by being gruff (ignoring the follower; stating the time and walking on) but was immediately thrown off by the niceties. Who walks away from someone being nice? A bitch, that’s who. And no one wants to be a bitch, right? So, confused, I submitted to the attention and gave away a piece of myself, albeit small pieces. And then immediately burned red-hot with rage, feeling impotent and angry as I walked away.
Don’t worry, I won’t let it happen again. I’m just saying: these two men had obviously given thought to their approach. Just hollering and saying “looking good!” wasn’t enough; they devised a plan that was more likely to get a reaction. The rewards were materially small: I just ignored the first guy’s phone calls, and the second encounter ended with a rather chaste kiss. But they each succeeded in getting me to surrender those nothings when I only wanted to be left alone. Which is why I think dominance is part of the game: those guys, the more passive catcallers, the more aggressive catcallers who insult you when you ignore them, and so forth are all hanging out on the same spectrum of wanting to show women who’s boss.
No.
Been terrified? Yes. Been close to calling 911? Yes. Nearly been violent? Yes. Yelled back? Yes.
But given them a date? Hell no.
I don’t think readers of this website are a fair sample of the variety in the female population. At most, you’ll get a few people who say, “I was young and didn’t know any better” or “Before I stopped dating abusive men” or some other variation on “When I didn’t realize (or couldn’t act on the realization) that men like this were toxic.”
Women who derive their sense of self-worth from being the object of a man’s attention generally don’t read feminist blogs, but the more I talk to men, the more I realize that those women are definitely out there. I was talking to one guy about that Washington Post op-ed on Tucker Max’s popularity with women, and he said, “Women with low self-esteem can be great in bed.”
I’ve occasionally thought “You’re attractive; it’s flattering that you find me attractive,” but then my brain kicks in and says “…except for the part where you think it’s appropriate to catcall me so rudely.”
I have on occasion been approached by strange men in public and complimented and considered giving them my phone number, but never in the context of cat-calling – more like “sitting across from them on the subway for twenty minutes, and complimented me quietly and politely.” Doubt it would have led to true love, but at least it didn’t make me feel like they were trying to assert their masculine power over me, or anything. Very different tone.
Never really happened to me. I have the famous Youthful Asian demeanor and appear about fifteen, and my neutral expression has been described as a cross between preoccupied and pissed-off.
Of course there have been encounters of the apparently-drunken-frat-boys-driving-by sort, but I mean, they’re obviously being harassy and stupid in those cases, and since they’re gone quickly it’s easy to shrug off.
i think any experiment designed to demonstrate efficacy or lack thereof has to control for attractiveness.
Wow, Manju, sexual harassment is hilarious, isn’t it? Why, I’ll bet accusations of sexual harassment are just a way for women to punish unattractive men! That’s awesome!
Oh, wait, that’s not right. Hold on.
No … no … I’ve almost got it.
Ah, right. Silly me. Now I remember!
That’s misogynist bullshit that only the worst sort of women-hating asshole believes.
—Myca
I wish I could articulate better what I felt after reading the post and the comments, but I can’t seem to say it in a way that isn’t directly against the culture here. I’ll give it a shot.
I know there is a culture that tells women that saying no is bad and that we must change that if we want equality. Many of us come from that culture, and from a culture that says it’s okay for women to be victims because they’re lesser. At the same time, every slight isn’t a challenge to our autonomy, nor every social exchange a lesson in power. If you don’t tell the person you don’t like something, they can’t be expected to know, even if it seems obvious to you.
It was a big part of my becoming who I am that I had to learn to say no. I went through some shit that I would have never chosen for myself if I’d had that power instilled in me already, but to demonize the men who were there with me and say that they were holding the power of the patriarchy over me is just nonsense. They were just as screwed up as I was. It wasn’t until I made that choice for myself that no became a part of who I could be. I think it gets glossed over with the “low self-esteem” women that they haven’t developed a skill that is crucial to social exchange.
Bottom line – to me, the men who cat-call are just solicitors, in the same way that door-to-door sales and beggars. I make the choice. It’s only when that choice gets taken away that it’s a problem, not before, and not when I stay silent.
uh yeah, seconding Myca.
Tanglethis I think you are on the money about it being a way for them to assert their dominance or to insult women. I notice a lot of time when I get catcalled it is by a group of men. perhaps if they were by themselves it would not happen so frequently.
I think of catcalls as kind of similar to spam. I can’t think of a singular recipient who is happy to get spam. 99.9% delete it without even considering what it is actually offereing. Yet it still exists.
In my case? No. Never.
Not if the guy was a double for Brad Pitt in Thelma & Louise. Not if he was the hottest thing ever. Not if he had Franklins glued to his ass. Never. It’s not flattering.
If there are any men who truly think that this is a truly effective way to meet someone, they need help. Yes, I could ask random people for sex or money or signatures or to sing camp songs at the top of their lungs, and would likely get a tiny percent of people to go along with it. That doesn’t negate the fact that I would have alientated/annoyed 99.9% of the people I interacted with.
And you know, men aren’t entitled to harass women. They just aren’t. Men don’t have to deal with catcalls, personal comments about their appearence (some of it gross and insulting–an overweight friend of mine has heard some really vile shit thrown her way from lowriding assholes) or propositions. They can say they’d welcome it all they want–isn’t it convenient that they don’t have to deal with it on a daily basis?
You’ve got it all wrong. Men are raised to understand that they have to make the first move, and that they will be rejected almost every time. Men who whistle at women on the street don’t think they’re actually going to get a date. They’re just re-staging the ritual of failure, and they’re doing it in such a way that they are certain to fail, so that they can feel some control over when and how they fail.
@12,
This is reasonable if we’re talking about, say, 15-year-old boys who are cat-calling for the first time. But after the 100th disgusted glare, raised middle finger, or deliberate non-response, shouldn’t most people be able to figure it out? At least, the overwhelming majority of the population that manages to remember things like ‘fire burn, don’t touch’?
You might want to look back at the “bitch if you do, broke if you don’t” cartoon. I’ve definitely been cat-called in situations where I felt safest staying silent (which to me is a non-response that people ought to grasp means I didn’t like what they were doing). The fact that I don’t express everything I feel doesn’t mean I’m not feeling it; it means I’m not sure how the reaction to my feelings will go. If I say, “Cut that out, it’s annoying,” will the guy say, “sorry, didn’t mean anything by it”? Or will he say, “frigid bitch” and start physically coming after me?
I am laughing my ass off at the image of some d00d hollering “you look peaceful!” at random passersby.
I want to make a distinction between cat-calling and street harassment, and just being hit on/approached.
There is a definite difference between the dude who says “Good morning, you look beautiful today!” and the dude who says “You want some of this, baby?” or catcalls in a group or any of those guys who follows up with hostility when they don’t get what they want.
I think there are women who aren’t desperate and don’t have bad self esteem who respond to chit-chat from strangers. For me, the difference is if I feel threatened or not – there is a definite cultural imperative on men to approach women, and there is a nonthreatening, undemanding way to do that. I have gone out with guys who just chatted me up on the sidewalk or the bus or got my number as a wrong number, when I was younger and single. None of those turned into relationships, but it’s just because the sample size is small – the percentage is about the same as the number of good dates I got off OKCupid ever.
No, never given a guy a date. Most of them didn’t seem to want one, though–they’d whistle or mutter, “Hey, baby” after I’d just walked past them while keeping their eyes averted. Cowards.
I worked for a local moving company for a summer job. One of the drivers used to do this all the time. I mean pretty much ALL the time. Any feedback at all was greated with “show me your breasts” or similar. I asked him why he kept doing this when it never worked and he would insist that it did. I think it was my 3rd or 4th summer there when a woman actually flashed him. I’m sure she did it to get a reaction since I remember that she and her friends laughed at the reaction. He told me “see I’ve been telling you it works.” It didn’t work with him every day so maybe he had better luck when i wasn’t around but I think that for him being an ass every day for 3-4 years was worth a half second glimps of breast from 60 feet away.
But he never did it at a resturant. He was always very polite to servers and other patrons. Even at McDonald or whatever. He only did it when he was in the truck and it was rolling. So maybe it was a dominance thing.
@ “Simple truth”: In line with PG’s response, I recommend you look at Fugitivus’s now-famous post about how women are socialized to be nice and play along with unwanted attention. It’s long, but makes one of the best cases I’ve ever seen against victim-blaming, and it’s applicable in this case as well (don’t hold the cat-called responsible for stopping the practice of cat-calling).
@ Comrade PhysioProf: I did, in fact, LMAO when he said that. But I was peaceful, and it did make me feel happy (and silly) that someone noticed.
@Rosa: I do see your point, and I wanted to make a similar distinction in my first comment… but then I remembered the two incidents with the “nice” catcallers, and how uncomfortable they made me feel. . . and I think one must make a distinction not just in the approach (“nice” or lewd) but in the pursuit (which, in the cases of the “nice” catcallers, was persistent and disregarded my own wishes).
Amazingly, I’ve had fairly OK experiences with cat-calling so far… That may partly be because I’m too witless to notice ‘proper’ cat-calling though.
1) Once, in France around 1 a.m., a guy cried out that my friend and I were ‘charmantes’ and then tried to guess my nationality. He gave up after 4 attempts though, hahaha.
2) Another time, also in France, I was just walking along when a guy on a motorbike suddenly pulled over to the kerb and said ‘Vous êtes très belle, mademoiselle’ (‘You are very beautiful, Miss’). Given that I was having a ‘fat day,’ I was chuffed to bits.
Myca & groggette:
You look peaceful!
This cracked me up, because I remember hearing, verbatim “Hey baby, you look fine” from black guys back home in Detroit when I was in my late teens/early twenties in the late ’80s/early 90’s. And, although I never dated or even had a real conversation with any of the men that cat-called me, I wasn’t really bothered by it either. Because, honestly, the black guys cat-called me and the white guys mooed at me, and I’d rather be cat-called.
I usually said something back, but with a smile. Nobody ever tried to push it, either. The times I remember it happening, it seemed pretty harmless to me. The guys who did it seemed sincere and weren’t trying to intimidate. It’s one of the things that let me know that attractiveness isn’t an absolute, and that some men think that a 42-32-47 figure is pretty hot. At the time, I needed to know that. I wasn’t insecure, generally, but I was very confused about how my body was perceived. Honestly, knowing that some guys would overlook a skinny blond and whistle at me was a good thing.
Worked once, and I wouldn’t call that time harassment because:
1. His opening line – “Are you a dancer? It was just a guess. The way you move when you walk is very graceful.” – was as graphic as the conversation ever got and the only thing he said that was remotely sexual. Also, he said it very offhand and while looking at my face.
2. He had been riding his bicycle, and hopped off to talk. He didn’t get off on my side, so there was a physical barrier between us. Also, kept a comfortable distance between us.
3. We were actually having an interesting conversation, so there were no “go away already” signals for him to ignore.
4. He didn’t ask for my number. He gave me his.
Multiple signs that he was actually interested in engaging with me as a person make a big difference. (even with a questionable opening line)
We might want to define what we mean by “street harassment”; I’m willing to take the meaning at the beginning of this article: “unsolicited comments and gestures of a sexual tone by men unknown to her.” If it’s not at all sexual (and I think “you look so peaceful” falls into the non-sexual category, given that it’s something a person might say to a person he doesn’t find at all attractive physically) then it’s not really “sexual harassment” on the street.
Dee’s comment is interesting, although I had major I’m-not-the-skinny-blond confusions and insecurities about my appearance in my teens and early 20s as well (did anyone escape that?), and having random men holler at me didn’t really make me feel better about that; it just made me feel extra self-conscious. I did appreciate having guys who actually knew me at all (even just to the point of sharing a class with me) who would compliment me — I still remember when I was 14 and convinced that I was hideous, a guy in gym class saying “Your hair looks nice when you wear it down” and feeling so much better about myself for the rest of the day. But random men, especially ones more than a couple years older than myself? Just felt intrusive.
To add to this: I only get catcalled when I am walking alone. The guys may be alone or in a group. But I have never gotten catcalled when walking with a man, and only once when walking with another woman. This is what really makes me think it is about asserting dominance and ownership. This is what makes me know that it’s harassment and not a compliment, and not hitting on me (I’ve been asked out many times – again, never when I’m with a man – but the guys doing this always back away when I say I’m not interested; it’s hard to articulate how but one can tell within 2 seconds if a man is trying to pick you up or just trying to get under your skin/harass you).
Simple Truth – I see what you’re saying, and of course it is important for everyone to learn how to express themselves and tell each other what they need. And you do say at the beginning of your post that you understand there is great cultural pressure for women to be polite and friendly, even to rude people. However, it sounds very much to me as though you’re saying that the solution is for women to become assertive, and not for men to stop pushing for unwanted attention.
Frankly, I find this laughably untrue. I do not find it difficult at all to tell when someone is put off by my behavior, even if they’re being polite about it. Human beings, like all animals, communicate in more ways than just vocally. We have extraordinarily expressive faces and bodies, and a person can very, very clearly say, “leave me alone” without having to actually say the words. And yet there are a lot of people who insist that you must actually say, out loud, “I don’t like what you’re doing, leave me alone”, in order to expect someone to leave you alone. And then that person should apparently feel free to continue to act that way towards new people who have not yet verbally told him or her “no.”
I’m sorry, that just doesn’t make sense to me.
And as for solicitors, you realize that salespeople are trained not to take “no” for an answer, correct? I briefly worked as a telemarketer, and we were told straight up that we were only to give up after having been told “no” at least 3 times. This is because people want to be polite, they don’t want to hang up on you because that’s mean, so they say yes because they think that’s the only way to get rid of you. The “customers” don’t actually want the crap you’re selling, they just want you to go away. And the telemarketers are banking on the fact that a lot of people will forget to cancel whatever they just agreed to in order to get you off their phone.
You could say that salespeople are just innocently offering you stuff, and they have no idea that you don’t want it, but that’s not reality at all. They know you don’t want it, and they’re just trying to break you down. And it sounds mean to say it, but I think that’s exactly how cat-calling functions. It’s a way to break you down. You could blame yourself for being able to be broken, or you could say, metaphorically, “hey, dude, why the hell are you trying to break me down? That’s kind of messed up and you should cut it out.”
I heartily agree that street harassment, or any harassment, is totally unacceptable. And I would never fall for it. Mainly because I’m not into men at all.
Having said this I have to confess that I on several occasions have appreciated the cat-calls or other forms of harassment. Ley me give you an example:
One early morning this summer I was walking to Stockholm Pride were I was working as a volunteer. On the way I passed a square where vendors were setting up their stalls for flowers, fruits, souvenirs and whatever. As i crossed the square some one called out “Hey, honey. Come here, check this out!” This, in other variations, were repeated by a bunch of other vendors. Nothing really rude was uttered but it was obvious that they were not calling out to get a customer. I just walked on with head held high and pointedly ignored them. But as I turned the corner a big smile adorned my face.
Why, when I abhor that kind of behaviour? I’m sixty years old and a transwoman in the process of transition. That a group of males saw me as a woman, and an attractive one at that, was a confirmation that I’m conceived as the woman I am. I don’t really need that confirmation, I know who I am and I’m out and proud. Still I find cat-calls secretly kind of thrilling.
I agree with what PG said about Dee’s comment about not being a skinny blond and taking harassment as a signal that I am conventionally attractive. I have received “sarcastic” harassment for not being conventionally attractive, and when I started receiving harassment for being conventionally attractive, I really, really had to work with myself to not think it was positive feedback.
I don’t think it’s about success, it’s about confidence. That’s what the patriarchy expects of men – to be confident. When a guy is hollering at a total stranger, he’s showing off his confidence to his friends and flexing a mental muscle that he needs in his daily life.
Every “traditional” heteronormative advice pile-on will tell men the same thing. Be confident. Practice. Know who you are, and act like you’re about 120% of that. Chat up random women, because it forces you to be confident around them and will remove intimidation (and to harden yourself against the pain of failure).
Fundamentally, these guys are working out. Either they’re unconfident men desperately trying to “improve” themselves, or they’re overconfident men showing off their inflated ego to their buddies.
Either way, it’s not about success. It’s about all that usual crap about “manning up”. To be a “Man” is to be fearless and awesome, and that includes saying what you want to say to women you want to say it to. A man who sees you walk by and catcalls is a man who wants to have sex with you, and is confident enough to speak the truth about that fact (however vulgarly).
You can also see how a mob-mentality encourages this to happen in a group – you get a nice positive-feedback-loop where a guy is trying to impress the other dudes with his own brashness, and they, in turn, wish to bolster their own, and so-on.
Think about it, in our society, what’s perceived as worse: a man who catcalls, or a man who finds you so irresistible that he creepily stares at you… and then sheepishly averts his gaze at your glare, ashamed of having his eyeball caught in the cookie jar.
In short, it’s just another aspect of the male gender-role within the Patriarchy.
and no, I don’t know the proper response. Non-specific insults or shrugging it off is middle-school-speak for “you’re bothering me”, and if that dissuaded them they wouldn’t be catcalling in the first place. Elaborate insults just invite conversation (such as proposing a way to prove the size of his insulted manhood).
I’ve experienced catcalls that I perceived as complimentary – even as a confident, grown-up feminist. It’s not a lot – maybe in the 1 to 2 percent category – and it’s hard to describe what made those catcalls different. They just came off as genuinely appreciative but with no expectations or demands. (And they were not too crude or too specific about what body parts they were appreciating or what they’d like to do to them. But really, it was about tone, more than the words chosen, as the same words could have been annoying if said in a different tone.)
But for every one man who has come off that way, I’ve had two who have turned verbally abusive if I ignored them (not because I insulted them or talked back – just because I ignored them). I can believe that some guys to get laid as a result of talking to random strangers, but I simply do not believe that anyone thinks yelling “Look at me when I talk to you, you fucking cunt” will actually result in sex or exchange of phone numbers.
Some very, very large percentage of catcalling is about dominance, and some much smaller percentage is about expressing actual desire (even if I include some of the vulgar, rude and annoying comments in the latter category).
And no, I’ve never dated, had sex with, given my phone number to or accepted a phone number from anyone who has ever catcalled me.
“hey, dude, why the hell are you trying to break me down?”
This would be an interesting response to a cat-caller. Might be hard to actually do it, but still, I wonder how it would turn out?
Tanglethis, PG – I do think it’s how these guys take a negative response that moves an otherwise-neutral comment into compliment or dominance/threat territory…and since there’s no real way to know at the outset what his followup is going to be, the target’s response can’t be to the catcaller as much as to her whole lifetime experience. For most women includes a *lot* of random verbal and sometimes physical attacks from strange men.
Me experience is similar to Dee’s, too – white men often seem to me to be doing some kind of dominance display, often threatening, and black men often aren’t. I used to think it was a class thing – middle class people are not very good at street interactions in general, and I have *never* been catcalled by a middle-class Black man.
But lately I’ve been wondering if it’s a white privilege thing – what Black man in his right mind would threaten some random white woman? So maybe my sense of safety/friendliness from some of the random Black guys who compliment me is a white privilege thing, either in my own mind or in the way they approach me.
Can catcalling be dismissed as just a form of attention-seeking behaviour?
I was in the process of closing the door to the classroom when a guy called out to me, when I stopped to open the door to check what he was saying the entire group of males laughed raucously (at me). This sequence repeated for another time before I simply walked out, where loud discussion began behind the door on why I wasn’t “game”.
I am not sure if this is sexual harrassment, just as sexual harrassment is not exclusive to males. Females do the same thing, singling out boys and giggling, as adolescent as it is. What I am unsure of is, is this normal, like part of the gendered modes of communicating attraction? Is terming it harrassment harsh or apt? Is it just up to subjective perceptions of boundaries?
Personally I think it is about knowing my own limits and negotiate it with gender norms. It’s important to respond if in any way I feel threatened, but it is easy to go extremely defensive and become “unreasonable”.
In another example, I’ve been lewdly yelled at from a distance, like “huge tits!” I just ignored it and walked on, feeling neither complimented nor angry. Is it because catcalling has become a gender norm? But I think it’s just as Bob Smith says — the male here doesn’t expect a response either, it’s somewhat a self-gratuitous, masturbatory act of expressing desire from a patriarchal norm, restricted by a changing social order that demands more equality and protection for women. Just as some comments suggest that it is about dominance, I think it is also an active act to “reclaim” what is “lost”, because women seem so scornful with the power of rejection.
Rosa- It’s interesting that you should say that, because I’ve wondered the same thing. And, while I’m stereotyping men of different ethnicities, I’ve had some creepy experiences men of middle eastern background trying to talk to me on the street. That DID feel like some kind of dominance thing, and I look like I could be middle eastern (I’m not – I’m 1/2 southern Italian), so that might have something to do with it.
Actually, I liked Silenced is Foo’s theory, but I’m starting to think it’s a little more complicated. I think that his/er assessment probably applies to cross-community cat calling. Maybe the purpose of cat-calling women who aren’t from your community is to show off your confidence. After all, those women “belong” to a different group of men. And, maybe cat calling women from your own community is a way to demonstrate dominance.
Denise, thanks for your response. PG and Tangled, I think I meant for my statement to be taken as a whole. I only have my own experience to draw from, and what I’ve read (and I have read Fugivitus’s post – it’s very good.)
Cat-calling to me has been very different. It’s usually a random stranger yelling a statement to me that is easy to ignore. Most times it seems they expect you to ignore it. Granted, I have not lived in a metropolis, so perhaps that’s a different type than most. That’s why I compared it to sales pitches – and I will hang up/slam doors/interrupt sales men to my heart’s content because I realize the arena we’re speaking in; they’re trying to get me to listen and I can choose not to. (The Do Not Call list has helped that out tremendously, though.) Same with cat-calls, weird flirting, etc – for the most part, they expect to be turned down. They have to be, just like the trucking friend in the example that joe gave.
I suppose I’m playing devil’s advocate, perhaps needlessly, for the men who have never been told, “Hey, I don’t like that.” I don’t feel that I’m victim-blaming because I’m not putting the imperative on women to be responsible for someone else’s behavior, merely their own reaction. It’s pretty empowering to learn you can say no. I think some people are incredibly horrible at reading body language, and telling them that you don’t like something leaves no room for doubt.
This comment isn’t meant to address those who have already overstepped the boundary of giving me the choice on how to deal with them. If they’re aggressive or vulgar, then it becomes the dominance issue and that’s a different ballgame.
It isn’t victim blaming to let women know it’s okay for them to say no and mean it. It’s not okay for women to stay silent and let this fester; it only hurts them, and the asshole that did it continues on doing it to others. Even if it was a genuine mistake, silence doesn’t give the person an opportunity to reform. That’s what I’m trying to get at.
I am generally oblivious of street comments, to the point that I regularly miss people I know on the street because I’m oblivious to them signalling me.
However, I do recall one particular incident that kind of made me feel good, which is perhaps one of the theoretical objects of the street “complimenter.”
I was in law school and a man who passed me going the opposite direction on the sidewalk looked at me and sort of said/muttered “he’s a lucky lucky man.” Now, I am heterosexual and had a boyfriend at the time, and I found myself thinking “yes, yes he is, he is a lucky lucky man” and generally feeling good about myself. I guess more than feeling good about this random guy’s opinion of me, which I wasn’t, it just sort of brought a happy thought of my own to my mind in agreeing with him, not necessarily for his reasons.
“Every “traditional” heteronormative advice pile-on will tell men the same thing. Be confident. Practice. Know who you are, and act like you’re about 120% of that.”
Quite a few less traditional ones too, iirc.
But Simple Truth, I don’t think we even HAVE the option to say no a lot of the time. Perhaps it’s a big city/small town thing (I’ve never lived in a small city or town), but because I have had so many experiences of politely turning down a stranger only to have him attack me (physically and/or verbally) that I just don’t feel comfortable doing that any more. No matter how polite or rude a man may seem, you have no way to know if he’s going to say, “oh, sorry to bother you miss” or “what the fuck is wrong with you, worthless cunt” and grab you. I sit awkwardly and try to smile, I walk quickly, I answer their questions briefly, etc. Because if I don’t, I’ve learned that I might get hurt. I still might get hurt if I “follow the rules,” but that seems like a much smaller risk. So I don’t say no. I don’t stand up for myself most of the time. I don’t “educate them” as to my feelings. I don’t feel I like I can safely choose that option most of the time.
Simple Truth, I agree with the first part of this statement, but only to an extent. It’s not victim blaming to let women (anyone really) know it’s ok for them to say no and mean it… but it doesn’t do that much good if we’re not also expecting men (anyone really) to hear no and to respect it.
As for the second part of the quote I cherrypicked, I completely disagree. It’s okay for a woman to do anything she thinks will help her keep safe* and that includes staying silent if men cat call her. It may not help the society wide problem with it, but sometimes we have to look out for our own personal safety over society’s.
*I’m excluding here any voilence that isn’t done in self-defense.
@ Groggette, @Simple Truth: It’s okay for a woman to do anything she thinks will help her keep safe* and that includes staying silent if men cat call her. It may not help the society wide problem with it, but sometimes we have to look out for our own personal safety over society’s.
I strongly second this, but I also have to add that I do think it’s okay for a woman to stay silent even if it’s just a matter of living her own damn life. It is not my responsibility to correct bad behavior (except my own). It is my responsibility to correct bad papers – I’m a writing teacher – and I get paid to do that. How fair is it to ask me to take on another shift of teaching when I get home from work?
Yesterday as I walked from the bus stop to my house, a cyclist nearly ran me over as he took a sharp turn, swerved and then circled around behind me to catcall. I could feel that he was behind me to my right, waiting for a response. This thread was very much on my mind, and I considered stopping, turning around, and yelling back. But you know what? I was exhausted, hungry, in a hurry to get home. I walked on. Later yesterday night, as I walked back from a neighbor’s house, a truck drove past in the opposite direction hollering. Again, I didn’t turn around, and I walked on.
These particular incidents would have been tricky to turn into teaching moments since both callers had wheels, but hey, I guess I could have anyway. Ignoring didn’t help anyone, true. But think about this: if you’re arguing that I should have responded to these calls, you’re essentially arguing that in order to make it possible for women to walk on the streets unharassed, women should forfeit the right not to engage with their harassers. That’s not really helpful either.
This is something I think is true across oppressions: oppressors are responsible for their own bad behavior. It is true that they won’t always learn that their behaviors are bad, or how to behave differently, without the help and teaching of those they oppress. It’s nice when people are able and willing to give that. But it is a gift, and it hardly eliminates unfairness to require its giving.
@43,
Furthermore, I think cat-calling is about as overt a form of sexist oppression as one can see. It’s not like aspects of oppression that are hidden in an overarching social structure, or that require the oppressor to sacrifice a significant life advantage (e.g. it’s against my own self-interest for me to argue in favor of ending standardized testing for admissions, because I score well on those tests, even though I’m conscious that they’re biased on race and class lines). It’s not even like oppression through insensitivity and ignorance (e.g. scheduling a major event on a Jewish holiday).
It’s just having some basic decency and good manners. Do you go around hollering at random men — particularly targeting them when they’re alone in public? No? Then why does it seem like a good idea to do it to women?
The amount of education required for a man to stop cat-calling seems like it should be pretty damn minimal, and thus if it’s going to “take,” it probably should have “taken” a long time ago. Someone who stubbornly insists that no, women really like this, even in the face of years of women indicated in one way or another that actually, they don’t like this, is a person who verges on being un-educatable.
Excellent addition Tanglethis (and PG), especially that last paragraph. I’m going to start responding with “It’s a gift” the next time someone demands I explain some bit of oppression they’re engaging in.
I suppose I’m playing devil’s advocate, perhaps needlessly, for the men who have never been told, “Hey, I don’t like that.”
You know, it’s never occurred to me to shout at random men or make crude sexual comments to them or within their earshot. It’s never occurred to me to follow them, harass them, or grope them. I don’t need to be told that it’s wrong, because I’m a damn grownup. AS ARE THESE MEN. They don’t do this to other men, only to women. Women are not supposed to parent random men. This stuff should be obvious, FFS.
I’m glad for everyone’s comments. I apologize for the delay – I don’t have internet at home anymore and can’t check threads like I used to check them most every day.
I think you all have pointed out a weakness in my argument that is very telling – that I expect women to call the men on their behaviour. You’re right – no one owes anyone anything as far as that goes. We’ve talked about that with PoCs but for some reason it just didn’t translate over to this issue. Women who get catcalled don’t owe those men, or anyone else, anything. I think ABW’s new thread highlights that as well.
It does bother me how much fear and anger this creates that doesn’t have an outlet, or a solution.
I can’t see how it ever could lead to love. For me it leads to hate, and if this keeps up, I’m liable to start hating all men, period. No wonder so many women turn gay that weren’t before. Well, if I ever turn gay, you’ll all know why. One of these days, I hope a ton of women get together and turn the tables on these guys. There are more women in the earth than there are men. Go get em.
I once had a guy come up to me and tell me that I was “hot.” I started talking to him and we hung out for the next couple days (we were at a convention.) Then I asked him to have sex with me and he REFUSED, saying that he was a virgin and didn’t believe in sex outside of relationships. So in this situation, yeah it would have been possible for him to get sex, except that he rejected the sex when it was offered. I will not ever understand guys.
Ain’t exactly complicated. Guys are not a huge bucket category; they have individual thoughts and feelings, just like women. Sometimes women don’t want ot have sex, and sometimes men don’t either.
Well of course I get that sometimes people don’t want to have sex. I just don’t get why they’d go up to a random stranger and call them “hot” if they don’t want to have sex. I mean I wouldn’t go up to some random dude and say, “You’re hot!” if I wasn’t interested in sex.
I’ve gotten dates from doing just this. Obviously catcalling is not an effective strategy, but politely complimenting a girl works well.
Dave,
girls? or women?