First, I highly recommend this animated Lego version of Spiderman 2. It’s pretty much spoiler-free, too.
Second, if you’re a person who enjoys superhero movies, then you should definitely see Spiderman 2. Much better than the first movie, and on the whole better than any other superhero movie I’ve seen. (That may be damning with faint praise).
What most struck me about the movie, aside from the genuinely wowzerific action sequences, was Aunt May’s comment that “I believe there is a hero in all of us.” (Spoilers ahead).
For a change, this wasn’t just a speech; it is an idea incorporated throughout the movie.
In fact, it seems like an extension of the best scene from the first Spiderman movie. In that scene, Spiderman is dangling below a bridge, holding onto a broken cable car cable with one hand, which is all that keeps the cable car full of innocent children and other such props from falling to a Watery Doom. With both of Spiderman’s hands taken up, he’s a sitting duck for the Green Goblin’s fly-by attacks. There really doesn’t seem to be a way for him to escape.
…until the Goblin is suddenly sent off course by some garbage hitting him. And then more garbage – a lot more garbage. Camera pans to the top of the bridge, where a bunch of New Yorkers have gathered and are attacking the Goblin by throwing litter. “What’s wrong with you? He’s trying to save some kids here!” one garbage-thrower yells. “You attack one New Yorker, you attack us all!” yells another. (I’m working from memory, by the way, so I’m sure I’m getting the exact words wrong, but you get the idea). This gains Spidey enough time to lower the cable car safely onto a helpful passing scow.
It’s a great scene; for the spectator-props to suddenly become participants in the action is unexpected, funny and touching.
And it’s a repeated theme in the second movie, where Spiderman is saved again and again by the people he saves. Aunt May hits Doc Oct with her umbrella, saving Spiderman from being skewered. (MJ tries the same trick with less success). Peter Parker saves a child from a fire, but falls through a hole in the floor and pulls himself up with help from the child.
Most interesting example: After stopping a out-of-control train (a very old superhero cliché that, much to my surprise, the film manages to make thrilling), Spiderman is saved from falling through elevated train tracks by the train’s conductor, and is then carried onto the train and laid gently on the floor by the combined efforts of the train’s passengers. Spiderman has lost his mask at some point (best line: “My god, he’s just a kid”), but the passengers all promise to keep Spiderman’s true face to themselves. The passengers then (unsuccesfully) stand up to Doc Oct when he comes to get Spiderman.
What’s oddest about this sequence is that the director turns it into a Christ metaphor; Spider-man is crucified on the front of the train, and then his unconscious body is passed over the heads of the grateful crowd, costume torn and bloody, arms still splayed Christ-style: Peter Parker has become Christ being removed from the cross. Spiderman has sacrificed himself to rescue New York, is the implication (which fits in well with the script’s emphasis on heroes being willing to sacrifice themselves).
Near the end of the movie, Mary-Jane says to Peter/Spiderman, “isn’t it time that somebody saved your life?” Well, yes, but that’s been going on all movie. Unlike Christ, the rescuing isn’t a one-way street; Spiderman constantly saves New Yorkers, and New Yorkers constantly save him in return.
* * *
Discussion topic: Bad guys for future movies?
Spiderman 2 also continues the class politics of the first Spiderman movie; Spiderman delivers pizza for a living and lives in a genuinely squalid and tiny apartment. Also as in the first movie, his enemies – in this movie, Harry Osborne and Doc Oct, and to a lesser extent J. Jonah Jameson – are upper-class elites.
One question is, if there are five or six Spiderman movies, who will the villains be? Clearly, Harry is being set up to be a new Green Goblin (or perhaps Hobgoblin). I hope they redesign the face to be more expressive. They’ve already used the best, scariest traditional Spiderman villain, Doc Octopus. And they’ve already included the Lizard (albeit in his pre-Lizard form). But who else?
On Crooked Timber, reader Erik (of The Ghost of Howard Beale) dismisses the Sandman as just muscle. Actually, I think Sandman would be a sensational villain for a future Spiderman movie. Not only is his power (the ability to morph entirely into sand, mud or stone, and to reshape his body at will) very well suited for current special effect technology, but he’s one of Spiderman’s few signature lower-class villains. And like Peter Parker and Mary Jane, Sandman is from Queens. This would make him an especially interesting villain for later in the series, when Peter and Mary Jane have climbed further up the economic ladder (and away from their roots).
(Here’s a page with lots of info about Sandman, btw).
Although he’s not primarily a Spiderman villain, I think the Juggernaut would be cool, primarily because the Roger Stern/John Romito Jr. “Nothing can Stop the Juggernaut” story is one of the best, and most cinematic, Spider-man comics..
Amp writes:
Much better than the first movie, and on the whole better than any other superhero movie I’ve seen. (That may be damning with faint praise).
I’m curious what you thought of the two X-men movies, then.
Despite never being into costumed Marvel/DC-style superhero stuff (not even, or perhaps especially, during my overlong turn as a comics retailer), I rather enjoyed both X-mens and both Spider-mans. As forgettable but fun fare, of course… (whew! saved my intellectualist face there!)
Interestingly, I am acquainted with a number of current and former DC editorial staff, and they universally hate the Spider-man movies. I must drag a real critique out of one of them sometime.
Hi, Scott!
I thought that the X-Men movies suffered from the fact that movies – and in particular, action movies, where so much of the limited time available has to be taken up by action sequences – aren’t very good at dealing with large, reperatory casts. So the first X-Men movie became very much a movie about Wolverine and Mystique, with the other characters ending up as supporting characters. There just isn’t time to develop that many characters.
They had beautiful special effects, though, especially the second movie. But they didn’t leave me with anything interesting to think about, and their stories weren’t particularly well developed.
actually, I was just talking about who the next villian should be with a bunch of kids today and the general consensus seems to be that the whole alien-spidey-suit-becomes-villain storyline would be way cool. So… that would be Venom.
I liked Spiderman, but I still favor Batman Returns by far far far.
years and years of reading different universes (not to mention retrofitting continuity) has left me a bit muddled on the issue, but I recall at least one version of the Symbiote suit being brought back from space by J.J. Jr.
besides, it seems enevitable: if you’re making spider man movies, EVENTUALLY, one has to get to Venom.
it also sets up some very good moral discussion, since part of the symbiote saga is how agressive and unheroic it made him act.
I’m not sure how well it would work, since one thing that made Spiderman 2 so great on special effects is how wild and brawling the fights seemed. it looked very much like Parker got the crap beaten out of him each time, and still got up to try and help more. it’s easier to cheer for someone beaten half to death that keeps on trying than the indestructible walls of iron we used to see in Super Hero flicks.
but that’s just my taste.
still this movie seems to set up for the return of the green goblin, the lizard, and venom.
I guess after venom they could do carnage, but I don’t know how good of a movie that would make. Carnage is a bit simplistic of a villian for a good movie, and I don’t know how well audiences would react to a movie which shows the villian killing civilians on screen for no real reason. they want them to go after a goal of some sort, and have the hero save any innocent bystanders (falling debris or cars)
well, my post was all poorly constructed and rambling, but I think people know what I’m talking about.
Saw Spiderman 2 last night. I really liked the theme of “everyday heroes” that Amp described. The movie didn’t hit you over the head with it either, which was nice for a change.
Finally saw it yesterday. Oohed and ahhed. Still think Batman Returns and Mystery Men are better superhero flicks, but we are dealing with rare hothouse flowers here, where de gustibus reigns supreme, and I’m stupid that way. —This Spider-Man flick was definitely better than the first (which started off as Teh Best superhero flick Evah, seriously, but then got seriously bogged down in criminally dull Green Goblin Oedipal histrionics). But No. 2 is a bit too hokey for its own good (I know, that’s me, saying that), and it’s badly flawed by not mitigating the essential selfishness of Mary Jane or Harry in any meaningful sense. I didn’t think, oh, they’re being a little selfish, but in an understandable, human way; I thought, gee, what pricks. Pete should find himself some better friends.
Problem I had with the comic, too. I’m not saying the dilemma isn’t an understandable one: you just need to work at giving some basis for MJ’s (and Harry’s) resentment. Empathy as much as sympathy.
And Aunt May’s speech felt a bit too much like a 10 pound sack of treacle bent by force of will into a trumpet-call of a moral.
Not that treacle comes in sacks.
Also, they scotched the pseudoscience. It wouldn’t have been too hard to come up with more rigorous technobabble, rather than the mush they were spouting. And I got the feeling the explanation of those arms was clipped from the final cut. (A reporter referred to the danger of the AI in the arms taking over his higher mind functions or something. What AI, I said to myself. Did I miss something? —I don’t remember the comics too well, but I don’t think his arms were artificially intelligent criminal psychopaths. Which is a cool idea that kinda got left in the dust.) —But I’m picking nits again.
But yeah: the train is a serious highlight. And the zanier Sam Raimi energy.
I dunno, I liked Spiderman 2 (saw it yesterday as well), but I still like X-Men 2 better. One thing is the sequel setup in X2 (won’t spoil it) is so much more vague and ominous than the sequel setup in Spider-Man 2 (MJ’s gonna get killed – hey this post is already filled with spoilers).
best line: “My god, he’s just a kid”
Don’t forget, the character adds “no older than my son” which is what made this line so memorable and moving for me.
The Christ-imagery felt a bit out of left field, but it wasn’t annoying, as opposed to the Christ-imagery in Matrix: Revolutions, but then Revolutions was the worst movie since at least The Phantom Menace, but I digress . . .
As for villains, it requires a lot of set-up, but I always loved the anti-hero Venom and his skewed sense of justice. Maybe do what X2 did, and have in Spider-Man 3 the set-up with the symbiote as the back story to set-up the emergence of Venom in Spider-Man 4. Get me Hollywood.
And, man, I love Doc Ock. He didn’t necessarily die, and since they’re already setting up the re-emergence of Green Goblin, they can couple it with the re-emergence of Ock and I don’t think anyone will complain.
Yeah, I love how they’re doing a serial format by introducing running subplots that become main plots later on, just like in monthly comics. Which means I half expect to see Eddie Brock make an appearance in the next movie, probably writing an article exposing the identity of whoever the villain is, then having that turn out not to be true, as exposed by Spider-Man, thereby destroying Brock’s career, setting up the next movie. Also, isn’t John Jameson some kind of wolf-man after landing on the moon? I’m sure that figures in somewhere… Personally I’d like to see Electro, Mysterio or the Beetle, only because I think the Spidey franchise is the only one so far where the book costumes would work just as well on film. I think the reason is that, though not by any means campy, the movies also don’t take themselves too seriously.
Oh, and to maybe address Kip’s complaint about Harry and MJ being so unforgiving: since they don’t know he’s Spider-Man, all they know is that he’s just a flake. It’s always a drag to have people flake out on you. I think in light of that their attitudes are understandable, if exaggerated. But then, that’s what makes you sit in your seat, stammering…”but…but…if they only knew…” Y’know, “brilliant, but lazy” and all that…
A couple of people have brought up the second Batman film, and I have to agree, that’s a better film. Although I liked both films, I don’t think either Mystery Men (which was WAY too juvenile – I mean, c’mon, fart jokes?) or the second X-Men movie (which had beautiful special effects but next-to-no story) is as good.
(I admit I’m a bit prejudiced against the X-Men franchise; I’ve always found superpowers as a metaphor for being an oppressed minority a little dubious. It annoys me – they pat themselves on the back for being soooo tolorant and politically hip while still being, by and large, a movie about straight rich white people).
But that made me wonder – why are there so many superhero film franchises where the second film was better than the first? Batman 2, Superman 2, Spiderman 2, and X-Men 2 were all better than the originals.
Is having to retell the origin really that much of a drag? Maybe. But in the first Spiderman movie, the origin was actually one of the highlights (Peter’s homemade wrestling costume was wonderful, as was his discovery of web-shooting) – as Kip said, it was the lifeless Green Goblin scenes that dragged the film down (which makes me worry about the next film). And telling the origin took maybe two minutes of screen time in the first Batman film.
* * *
A lot of folks have mentioned Venom as a future villian. This really dates me: I stopped reading superhero comics before Venom appeared as a Spider-man villian.
* * *
Regarding Kip’s critiques: Harry, who sees Peter as a defender of Harry’s father’s murderer, has more than enough reason to be super-critical of Peter.
As for MJ, I don’t find MJ’s reaction unrealistic (a lot of people working their way to the upper class starting from poor folks in Queens are ultra-critical of imperfect friends, I’ve found), but I agree she was being unfair. On the other hand, that Peter hadn’t managed to find time to see her play was genuinely unforgivable.
Regarding the treacle, I actually thought it was pretty brave of the screenwriter to do that, but I agree that it could have used a heavy editing hand.
And the pseudoscience was, indeed, badly-developed garbage.
* * *
Two more things I’ll praise Spiderman 2 for.
First, Aunt May not being able to afford her house payments. That’s a genre fixture, and in any other action picture it would have become part of the victory at the end: Peter would somehow have come up with the money to save Aunt May’s house. In this picture, Aunt May was simply forced to sell her house and move to someplace she could afford. As far as class issues go, Peter Parker simply lives in far more of the real world than almost any other movie superhero (except perhaps the Shoveler).
Second, Peter’s confession to Aunt May (of his complicity in Uncle Ben’s death) was genuinely wretching – possibly the hardest thing I’ve ever seen a superhero character do in a movie. For me, that scene made up for a LOT of treacle (which, indeed, Aunt May seemed to cart around by the truckload).
Just a quick note: I’m not knocking either MJ or Harry; I’m saying the movie took their reactions for granted, or rather, our sympathy for their reactions. There was a lot of umbrage there, and we weren’t given a reason for it. It’s (much) less important for Harry than MJ, but with her, it’s a nigh-critical flaw. I don’t doubt Peter’s been an ass. Show that to us. (An empty seat in a theater? Pfeh. Make it count before you unload with a speech about it. Earn that speech.)
Two more things:
In all the sequels listed, I think the key thing was the suits said, hey, these kids can make it work, let’s back off a bit. In all four cases, the sequel is demonstrably the work of a more unified, less committee-bound approach.
And, if you want to know where the Spidey saga is headed over the course of the next four flicks? Read this.
Raz: death of MJ? I dunno. after all the thing that was SUPPOSED to kill a love interest (being chucked off the GWB, deceleration from Spidey’s catch actually snapping her neck) happened in the first movie. it just didn’t kill her
and MJ isn’t Gwen Stacy. I think killing MJ off would have pretty negative reactions from the viewers.
Kip: really, you think the clone saga is going to get picked up? BEFORE they cover solid bases in the title like Venom?
I for one don’t feel too bad about the pseudoscience. really off kilter science was a hallmark of the Spiderman books, and it feels more to me like they took some silly, not particularly important plot footnote and turned it into an homage. but that’s just the interpretation I drew.
The Clone nightmare? Not a chance.
The Lizard, Possibly JJ Jr’s moonwolf thingie (I was never fond of that), Sandman is a good choice, but I’d love to see the Scorpion. I like Electro, but at that point I’d just go with the whole Sinister Six.
And while I love that Juggernaut story too, I can’t see them doing it.
I was just wondering if anyone stopped to consider the subtle hints towards Venom. When Spidey lowes MJ down from the crane (if you see it again) watch for the way her fiance jumps from the wharf to the boat. It’s a very ‘spidey’ type jump. Then I clued in that he was an astronaut AND the Venom symbiote had come from space (where astronauts spend weekends)
Just thought I’d throw that out there, and see what people think.
Thanks
Hey RD great eye on ya! I didn’t see the jump, but I going to see the movie again and I’ll be sure to keep my eye open for it. It’s those subtle things that could turn out to be a big deal in the next movie.
I hope you’re right. Venom would be awesome. Even better a Venom and Goblin team-up.
RD, I recall the jump, but it didn’t really seem all that superhuman to me. also, remember the symbiote doesn’t gain any spidey powers until after it’s bonded with parker. but that’s just a fan based nitpick: good eye, but if they stick to the spirit of the books as well as they have in general, it seems unlikely.
SF: a venom/goblin teamup? ugh. Venom does not play well with others. even after they decided he wasn’t totally evil and made him a “good guy” he STILL didn’t play well with others. the GG never really played well with others either.
more to the point, both of them are incredibly tough villians. they’d have a hard time coming up with a win for spidey that didn’t involve some stupid deus ex machina ending. “oh no! the Avengers show up and help spidey!”
no, no. no good.
*just fyi, spoilers in this post*
I was a little disappointed in “Spider-Man 2,” for a variety of reasons. I think part of it is that I expected the movie to be more…subtle, maybe, or nuanced. So I got stuck on the scenes in which I felt like the movie was (yes) banging me on the head: the Aunt May monologue, Peter’s and Harry’s “conversations” with their respective fathers, the train-riders’ selfless support.
In other words, the whole “hero” theme, which I definitely agree is in there, was too obvious for me. (I understand that that’s part of the genre, but in other ways it seemed to me that the movie was trying to be subtle, so it felt inconsistent.)
Then the skeptical part of me kicked in. I kept wondering if that’s how fusion really worked; I sincerely doubted that all the train riders would keep Spider-Man’s identity a secret; I couldn’t figure out why someone didn’t just shoot Doc Oc. And did he really need to say, “This is the chip that preserves my brain,” followed by “Oh, no! The chip that preserves my brain is broken!”?
Also, I interpreted the end of the movie differently. I don’t think they’re setting Harry up to be the new bad guy. Seemed to me that he completely rejected his father’s request for him to kill Peter, therefore Spider-Man, by throwing the knife at the mirror, which led him to discover that his dad was the Green Goblin, thus making that rejection more acceptable. I thought the movie did what the new “Stepford Wives” did: make a controversial act more palatable to an audience who might prefer justifications to behavioral complexity.
My three favorite scenes: when Peter confesses to Aunt May that he was responsible for his uncle’s death; the train scene; and in the beginning, when the guy yells, “Hey! Spider-Man stole that guy’s pizzas!” I giggled for several minutes after that line.
(Alas, as I know nothing about comics, I have nothing to add about future villians.)
I also really enjoyed Spiderman 2, much more than either of the X-men flicks, but to be fair I have a dislike of Phoenix/telepathy chick that borders on pathological, and I can’t stand Halle Berry in anything I’ve seen her in.
I think Spiderman 2 allows you (because it focuses on one hero rather than a large group) to really get into the character(s).
You feel pity for Harry, even as you think “what an a**hole!” as he goes about his daily job for the corporation. Pity because he was the unloved son, not smart enough, not strong enough, not kind enough.
You are happy for MJ for finding some success, even while you are kinda mad at her shortsighted treatment of Peter (c’mon, the guy had his moped run over lady, give him a break!).
You feel bad for Aunt May when she gets denied her loan at the bank, you worry about Peter as he faces down his professor after missing the class (again).
X-men did not even come close to evoking that kind of emotional response for me. In fact, I can’t think of a single other superhero movie that has done that for me.
THE JUGGERNAUT?
Sheeeeesh! That guy almost killed me! I gotta tell ya, that was the ONE time that I didn’t think I was going to be able to ‘take’ a baddie. Luckily I found that freshly poured skyscraper foundation. I guess SOMETHING can stop ol’ Juggy!
Anywho, I just ran across your site and thought I’d chime in real quick while I take a break here atop Trump Tower. (Freezing my tukas off by the way!)
Stop by some time and give Spidey a hello!
Take care and as always,
Keep On Slingin!!
Spider-Man
Well, I wasn’t expecting to see that as the last comment.
Anyway, my boyfriend pointed out the Christ imagery on the train, even that Spidey seemed to have a wound in his side as the passengers carried him.
what…
in…
sam…
hell…?
it’s not mean or contrary enough to be a troll.
it isn’t advertizing anything, so it isn’t a spambot.
they aren’t bickering enough (like me) to just be a fanboy who found a discussion thread featuring “spiderman” and decided to post.
they also seem to have a reasonable handle on Spidey-dialogue, but most fanboys can affect that.
golly gee, virginia, there really is a spiderman.
click his name, there’s a blog.
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