It’s virtually a law of Internet discussion that any conversation about rape will turn into a debate about the need for women to keep themselves safe. The attitude that women have the responsibility to protect themselves from rape is, at the most generous reading, an uncritical acceptance of the idea that men cannot be prevented from raping. At its worst, it is yet another example of the way society makes women responsible for anything men dislike. And all the while, there is no acknowledgement that this is just the mechanism by which sexist men can benefit from rape without themselves committing it.
That women are sexual beyond the ways men wish them to be disturbs a certain kind of man. The fears that once kept female sexuality in check are gradually being eroded by social change and medical advances: fear of ostracism, fear of disease, fear of unwanted pregnancy. But fear of rape remains, and it can be a powerful weapon.
There was one piece of fall-out from the paratrooper incident that I didn’t mention. A family member learned that I’d gone back to the camp with a couple of men for sex. He had no reason to think anything non-consensual had happened, but he was horrified all the same. He told me that my behaviour was disgusting and that I should be ashamed of myself. Friends and other family members defended his attitude by pointing out what many people in the other thread pointed out – that I’d put myself at quite some risk.
That explanation failed to convince me. Disgust and shame are appropriate responses to moral wrongdoing, not foolhardy risk-taking. He was horrified that I’d allowed myself to be sexual in an unapproved way; the risk of rape was a justification, not his true motivation.
It shocks some people that I want sex and don’t want to submit to male authority. It shocks them even more that these two desires outweigh my fear of rape, so that I dare to gratify both by picking up paratroopers in a pub. The “prudent” suggestions for keeping myself safe always boil down to giving up sex (or at least, the kind of sex I’m interested in) or submitting to male authority.
These “solutions” might well have no effect on my risk of being raped. But even if they were guaranteed to protect me from all risk, they wouldn’t be worth it. I think I’d rather be raped than spend the rest of my life turning aside from what I wanted and settling for something less. I know I’d rather take risks than allow fear of rape to control my expression of my sexuality.
In my ideal world, men would not be tempted to commit rape. Sexual encounters would be handled with negotiation, not with one partner’s insistence on getting what he wants at the expense of another. Men would respect the desires of women to control what happens to their bodies, whether they’ve known each other for ten minutes or ten years.
And in my ideal world, the fear of rape could not be used as a justification for slut-shaming.
Pingback: Step Inside Me
The fears that once kept female sexuality in check are gradually being eroded by social change and medical advances: fear of ostracism, fear of disease, fear of unwanted pregnancy
Disease is now socially acceptable.
Disease is now curable, controllable and preventable for the most part. The same goes for pregnancy.
Nick,
Do you think there can be a difference between an candid discussion of what constitutes higher-risk behavior and lower-risk behavior, and slut-shaming? I’m honestly curious, because what I’ve seen in the commehts thread below seems to suggest that most of the people here don’t believe so: that in suggesting that some behaviors are higher risk than others, you are necessarily supporting the idea men cannot help but rape women, and that if a woman who puts hetself in a higher risk situation is raped, it’s her own fault. With the exception of the obvious trolls, it seemed to me that everyone who tried to discuss anything to do with the riskiness of the behavior was bending over backwards to make it clear that the riskiness of the behavior does not make the victim, or potential victim, responsible in any way.
I don’t think that anyone would suggest that pointing out that leaving your keys in your unlocked car is higher risk than not means that you’re necessarily supporting the idea that people can’t help but steal cars, and that if you do so its your own damned fault if your car is stolen. But maybe I’m wrong. Please feel free to tell me so. :)
And thanks for sharing your story and starting this discussion. I’m sure it’s helpful for all of us.
I don’t think risk would be considered much of a factor if a guy had gone home with two anonymous women he picked up in a bar for sex, even if the women were physically bigger or stronger.
Nick,
You. ROCK.
I think there’s a very fine line between suggesting caution and insisting people should only take those risks you would be willing to take. People take risks for reasons other than sheer recklessness or ignorance of the risk, and a lot of the “you should be more careful” type of advice doesn’t take that into account.
ADS–but there’s one key difference between “pointing out” that leaving your keys in your unlocked car is higher-risk and that [insert behavior here–walking alone at night, drinking with male friends, dating men you don’t know well, etc] is higher-risk. You don’t really lose anything by *not* leaving your keys in your unlocked car. Ditto with putting on a seatbelt when you drive, or most of the other analogies used in the other thread.
However, all measures that people oh-so-helpfully suggest women take to lower their risk of rape *do* cause women to lose something–each one is an ever-tighter constriction on the life that women can lead. If I can’t walk alone at night, I can’t go to gym or out to happy hour with coworkers or to check out a new museum after work. If I don’t ever put myself alone in a room with a man I’m dating, I can’t have any sort of sexual experience. THAT’S what some of us find so frustrating about the conversation. I concede that it’s possible there are a set of actions that lower one particular woman’s chance of stranger rape. However, to talk about that set of actions without acknowledging the burdens it would impose on women–and whether those burdens are an acceptable price to pay for being fractionally safer–is either being blind or is accepting that women shouldn’t be able to live full lives.
Oh, and the other thing: people in the other thread, despite bending over backwards to say they weren’t blaming Nick, weren’t talking in generalities about things women can do to be safer. They were examining what Nick did, and hypothesizing about what Nick *should* have done. Which, even if you accept that Nick’s choices created a higher risk of rape than other choices would have, still assumes that (a) Nick is not intelligent enough to realize the risks inherent in those choices, or (b) Nick can recognize the risks, but is unable to balance the potential risk with her needs and desires and decide what makes the most sense for her.
I mean, there are a lot of risk reduction techniques people could use for a whole host of things, but choose not to. And it seems the only times that someone is criticized for choosing not to employ risk reduction techniques is when other people can’t see why any rational person wouldn’t: that is, when there is no drawback to taking an action to lower risk (installing a fire alarm in their house, getting tested for STDs, looking both ways before crossing the street). In cases where someone has to make a decision about assuming risk, and choosing the least risky method entails sacrificing something important, most people are loath to second-guess those choices by “recommending” someone should make a different choice in the future.
Rape is a social control — whether it is stranger or aquaintance rape. It is more like an act of terrorism than it is an act of crime. Especially when you add in the factors of people’s good intentions of focusing primarily on what women can do or not do to prevent it from happening to them (as individuals). Rape, however, is not a singular act. It is not a singular abuse perpetrated by one person and played out on another person’s body. It is a socially condoned use of force that works to control women’s sexuality and women’s role in the social fabric. If you doubt that, read up a little on the rapes in the Congo. Rape is interwoven in how young men are socialized about their sexual role, about their need to be aggressive, to expect women to resist their charms, to give the woman sex because she will in turn give him love. That right there is the recipie for rape.
So no. Talking about women’s risk taking is akin to asking the men who worked for the WTO in the Trade Towers whether they had adequately figured the risk of terrorist attack, and shouldn’t they perhaps work in a different building. Or a different job. Or work from home. Or not be so blatent about whom the worked for. Perhaps if these men had simple been bankers, for say Wachovia, they would have been safer. Or perhaps they should be elementary school teachers — yes the pay and prestige would be less, but then so too would be the level of acceptable risk associated with terrorist acts.
Continually focusing on what women should or should not do actually points to the clear outline of our rape society — we have no problem suggesting that women curtail their freedom of choice or movement. We have no problem suggesting to women that public space is well, not quite so public for them because they might get raped, and then we can of course hold them responsible for being so naive as to think they can enjoy parks, streets, midnight walks in the same way that the average man can. Heaven forbid if a woman wants to walk to the public library after dark, by herself… she should know (especially if she is an adult) that such freedom is not reserved for her. And heaven forbid if she wants to be sexual in the ways that she wants to be sexual.
Folks on the other thread were adamant that they would tell off their male friends if they were sexually careless… but the proof is in the pudding folks. Rape is still happening. So obviously there aren’t damn many of you actually talking to your male buddies about the careless and foolish (and criminal) things they are doing with their dicks. Either you’re lying to yourself, or you simply refuse to believe that the men you know are capable of rape.
We can talk until we are blue in the face about what is an appropriate level of risk that a “normal” and “sane” woman should take. And each time we raise the bar, and don’t bother to check men’s behavior, then what passes for normal and sane and risk free gets narrower and narrower and narrower. Women aren’t the problem here. Women’s choices aren’t the problem.
What needs to be addressed is the social benefits that men garner in a rape society and why we continue to aggressively sexualize men on the far end of the rape continuum. Women’s risk taking doesn’t amount to a heap of shit in the cult of masculinity. Women’s risk taking is meaningless when women are objectified.
Until our society can grasp the concept of male responsibility for the rape culture we live in, then any other conversations amount to victim blaming.
Well, whatever.
I ride horses. In August, I fell off one and broke my arm.
People who ride fall off all the time. Experts fall off all the time, and sometimes they’re killed. That’s the reality of the situation.
So. There are bad men in the world. We all wish there weren’t, but there are. (Bad women too, but that’s not the issue here.) There have always been bad people, and there probably always will be, until Messiah comes (0r comes again, according to your view).
I wish my horse in particular were a bit more tractable than she is. I also wish there weren’t bad men in the world. Whether you ride, or pick up men in bars, is all about risk. If you’re willing to bear the risk, you can ride horses, ski, ride motorcycles, pick up men in bars, cross the street, you name it. No blame.
Oh, by the way, I’ve taken plenty of blame and criticism for riding since I broke my arm. It’s all my own fault and all that, and in one sense it is I guess.
But I’m not staying up at night worrying about it.
I’m not sure what you are trying to say Susan. Are you comparing rape to an accident. Like in: the rapist’s penis just happened to fall into some random woman’s vagina?
What needs to be addressed is the social benefits that men garner in a rape society and why we continue to aggressively sexualize men on the far end of the rape continuum.
Just exposing my ignorance here, but can someone point me to a good essay or explain the “social benefits that men garner in a rape society”?
In a word Trey: dominance.
Well, Q, rape isn’t an accident – from the rapist’s point of view, that is. However, it can be from the victim’s point of view like an accident, in that she certainly doesn’t intend it (by definition!) and it can be one of the risks attendant on some behaviors (like picking up strangers in bars).
My point is that we can rant and rave all we want, but there have always been criminals in the world, and probably always will be. Thus, leaving your purse or wallet unattended, your car unlocked in certain neighborhoods, your house unlocked in certain neighborhoods, on and on, increases your chances of being the victim of criminal behavior. So also, being raped if you go off into private places with men you don’t know.
Sad sad regrettable regrettable. Criminals are by definition bad people. If you give them the opportunity they might commit a crime on you.
But if you never drive anywhere lest someone may rear-end you, never leave home lest someone break in, never go to bars lest you get raped, never get up on a horse lest you fall off – well, life could get kind of dull. It’s OK to take risks. Probably inevitable. Everyone has their own level of comfort, risk-wise.
What’s your point? That rapists are criminals? Well, we knew that, right? Bad men. That we wish we didn’t have a certain number of criminals in our society? I’m totally with you. But, there you are.
Q grrl,
So as a gay male, I enjoy a dominant position in society (if I hide my sexuality) because other men rape women?
I know this is a patriarchal society and men enjoy a dominant position in it thusly…
but I was hoping for a bit more information that would lead to the understanding that “rape —–> male dominant society’ as opposed “male dominant society ——–> rape”.
If that’s what you got out of what I said, you need to clean off your computer screen. Being deliberately obtuse is not a flattering look for you.
My point is that *all* men, regardless of moral badness or goodness, have been raised and sexualized into a rape culture. Until we address this, it does very, very little to parse out risk behaviors that women engage in.
Thanks, trey, for pointing out the obvious, which does sadly seem necessary on this thread.
Rape is a crime. Thus, rapists are criminals. Not all men (or women) are criminals; actually, happily, criminals are in the minority. Unless you have raped someone, trey, you are not a rapist, not that kind of criminal, even though you are a guy.
The vast majority of men, like the vast majority of women, are not criminals. That we do, sadly, have some criminals in this society (like all societies I know of) does not make this a criminal society. It just makes us normal. We actually have a fair number of murderers, our share at least, but that does not make this a murderous society, or at least, no more murderous than any other society.
I’m a bit tired of this relentless generalization of what is, after all, criminal behavior.
AND, there is no appropriate moral onus on picking up strangers in bars. Or on leaving your purse unattended. You just have to realize that you’re taking a risk. Risk is OK. All good.
Trey: I don’t have the time or the energy to educate you on this. There are copious threads right here at Alas! that discuss the benefits that men experience when socialized in a rape society. I also believe that if you were to take the time to really think about how rape (and the threat of rape) socializes girls and women you could begin to see for yourself how men benefit.
Again, rape is not so much an individual act, but a socially condoned act. As such, it matters little that you, personally, are a gay man. If you are not actively working to deconstruct a male sexuality founded on rape (virgin/whore dichotomy for women), then you are indeed benefiting from the fact that many men do rape. You are leaving the problem up to someone else because you believe it to be a private issue (I’m surmising here, because of your blindness to the social benefits to men of rape).
Your saying this, Q, does not make it so. I disagree.
If being “obtuse” does not flatter me, anger isn’t your best look either.
Bad things happen. Among these bad things – not the worst – is rape. Human societies have always had a lengthy and ugly list of inappropriate behaviors, and this one is no exception. That does not make this a “rape culture” any more than our (rather high) murder rate makes this a “murder culture.” We just got some bad people, OK?
Trey–
One doesn’t hape to be a rapist to enjoy male privilege, any more than one has to be a KKK member to enjoy white privilege. Speaking as a white person who has never burned a cross on someone’s lawn, I can still recognize that that being white in a segregated society meant I attended a high school that was over 95% white–which also had a slew of AP classes (not offered at any of the majority-black or majority-Hispanic high schools in the area) that helped me get into college and win a nice little merit scholarship that knocked a third of the cost off tuition. Meaning I had fewer student loans to pay back, which has a direct bearing on my current standard of living.
Off the top of my head, I would say that regardless of your orientation, one benefit you receive from being a man in a rape culture is that you can choose to live in what people call “transitioning neighborhoods” for dirt cheap. Because I have to rely on public transportation, and I know I’ll be coming home from work past sundown for half of the year, I can’t. The very fact that up to half of the population would feel reservations about living in that neighborhood will drive rents down further than they would be if women were competing equally to live there.
I imagine that many men benefit in the workplace from women’s conditioning to “be nice” (because pissing men off can be a very, very dangerous mistake for us to make, particularly with men we don’t know well). If you’re debating with a coworker about the best method of doing X, she may back down when she sees you getting worked up–and you didn’t mean to scare her, you might not even be aware that she’s backing off because of your anger as opposed to agreeing with your logic, but there it is.
I’m sure others can come up with more examples.
Q,
Rape is “a socially condoned act”?? Come again? Rape is a crime, a felony in my jurisdiction, punishable by a long prison term. Where do you live?
I’m sure the numerous rapists in our state prisons would be entertained by your analysis. But not too much.
Your surmise is utterly wrong.
I am not asking you to educate me. you said we need it discuss this. i asked for a link from someone who might know where i can educate myself (instead of spending hours wading through the morass that is the internet). I’m getting antagonism.
Susan,
Yes, rape is a socially condoned act. That is the reason why so many rapes go unreported. That is the reason why so few reported rapes are prosecuted. That is the reason why so few prosecuted rapes result in a conviction. That is the reason why convicted rapists serve very short sentences. That is the reason why, when a woman is raped, people immediately tell her what she did wrong. That is the reason why raping your wife has been legal until very recently.
Trey,
Look through the Alas! categories (bottom of the side bar) under the “rape…” heading. You will find the explanations that you want in the posts & comments there.
Sorry Trey for the antagonism.
Can you think of ways in which men benefit from rape? Do you think that the threat of rape curtails women’s freedom of movement and choice, and if so, how do men benefit from this? Do men benefit from women feeling threatened in public space — do men have better employment opportunities, access to resources, access to recreation, access to politics, access to legislative opportunities because women are threatened with rape if they use public space in the same way men do? How do you think that “uppity” women react when threatened with rape? How do you think “strong” women react when threatened with rape? Do you think there is a direct social impact on the presence (and freedom) of women in public becuase of the universal threat of rape that exists?
trey,
Q seems angry. To say the least.
Let’s try again.
Q, I’m with trey. Can you explain to both of us (1) why and how exactly is this a “rape society” (with special attention to how I, a very successful professional 60 year old woman, managed to completely miss this feature of the society I was born into and have lived in all my life), (2) how exactly I have been oppressed by all this, and (3) what we are supposed to do about it?
Thanks, Q, you were posting while I was posting.
1. “do men have better employment opportunities, access to resources, access to recreation, access to politics, access to legislative opportunities because women are threatened with rape if they use public space in the same way men do?”
Not so that I can tell. I am able to and have beaten most men on their own ground. I’m not unusually anything much, except that I may be smarter than most. Most of my professional work, like almost everyone in my profession (law) happens on the phone or in court. Hard to see much rape threat there.
(2) “How do you think that “uppity” women react when threatened with rape? How do you think “strong” women react when threatened with rape?”
I’m uppity and strong, I guess. (If I’m not, who is?) I’ve never felt threatened with rape, so I don’t know how I’d react. How would a strong man react to a threat of robbery? Most men don’t know, because it doesn’t happen very often. So also here.
(3) “Do you think there is a direct social impact on the presence (and freedom) of women in public becuase of the universal threat of rape that exists?”
No. Not so far as I can tell. I go where I please when I please, so far as I can see. I don’t prowl about the inner city at 2 am, but no man in his senses does either. I just don’t see the difference.
I’m not trying to diss you, Q, but I just don’t understand what you’re saying. I’ve lived a long life here (so far) and I just don’t see the threats or the disadvantages you’re talking about. It’s an interesting argument that I’m horribly oppressed without knowing it, but to me, not real convincing.
Susan Brownmiller’s “Against our Will”
also Googling “rape culture”
reading any contemporary arguments about why women should not be in combat will illuminate many of the male benefits. Full citizenship and all that nonesense.
Susan: I will pass on giving you special dispensation because of your very successfullness. But congratulations on honing your patronizing skills. For you, I recommend doing some research on the rapes that have been occurring in the Congo over the last several years — especially keep in mind the lack of US military or governmental intervention, contrasting this with US response to Iraq and Afghanistan, especially with US “outrage” over burkhas, etc.
Susan: the problem is, as I pointed out to Trey, that it isn’t a problem of “individuals” and what has happened to you (or not happened to you). Are you saying that women are not socialized to fear stranger rape and that this socialization doesn’t work to curtail women’s choices and freedom? If you are saying this, why the hell were we hanging black men in the South for a great deal of the last century? Are you also saying that the constant news stories about Amber Alerts and kidnapped girls and women, don’t have a negative impact on women’s choices? on what girls can and cannot do?
What gated community do you live in, and do they let bottom feeders like me in?
Q,
1. “Are you saying that women are not socialized to fear stranger rape and that this socialization doesn’t work to curtail women’s choices and freedom?”
Yes. That’s what I’m saying.
2. “If you are saying this, why the hell were we hanging black men in the South for a great deal of the last century?”
And this has what to do with the subject of our discussion? Weird. You totally lost me on this one.
3. “Are you also saying that the constant news stories about Amber Alerts and kidnapped girls and women, don’t have a negative impact on women’s choices? on what girls can and cannot do?”
Yes, I’m saying that too. I’m a woman with two daughters and two granddaughters. I think I know what I’m talking about.
4. “What gated community do you live in, and do they let bottom feeders like me in?”
I live in Oakland, California, a city with one of the highest crime rates in the nation. You are not a bottom-feeder. But yes, everyone is welcome here.
Where do you live? Is it really so much more dangerous a place than Oakland? Maybe you should move?
But congratulations on honing your patronizing skills.
Dude.
When Qgrrl calls you patronizing . . .
Duuuuude.
Q, sorry I missed this one in my last reply.
But….what’s going on or not going on in the Congo is relevant to our situation here how? Another one from left field. You got me there.
(smile) Thanks, Anonymous.
No. Not so far as I can tell. I go where I please when I please, so far as I can see. I don’t prowl about the inner city at 2 am, but no man in his senses does either. I just don’t see the difference.
Really?? There are bars I’ve been warned off of, but guys haven’t been, because they aren’t “safe” for women. I’ve been told that I’m opening myself up to assualt when I drive alone at night, walk alone at night, and travel by myself. There are places where we “shouldn’t” be, walk alone in, and avoid.
I took a walk in the wooded area of a park near my parents house once. A couple of guys came up behind me, and I panicked and got out of there. They took great offense–but then again, if they’d turned out to be assholes who assaulted me, I would have been told that I was stupid for going into a wooded area alone.
I do the key thing. I don’t get into an elevator if it means I’ll be alone with a guy I don’t know. I don’t invite first dates in for coffee–and I was routinely dismissed by people I knew as paranoid for this. Then again, some of these same people said that a woman who’d been raped on a date was being stupid for doing the very same thing that they thought I should do.
If Q sounds angry, then you can count me in with her. Because I am really, truly, sick of this BS. We can’t win.
Susan,
Over on the other thread, Richard Bellamy talked about how he plans to teach his daughters to avoid being alone with a man whenever possible. Richard seems like a pretty normal person, and his plans don’t seem particularly bizarre for our culture. Rachel Ann talks about how she avoids ever spending time alone with men not her family (either single men or groups). While she primarily does this for religious/cultural reasons, she clearly feels that this makes her safer and wouldn’t be a bad idea for others to do to.
So are you saying people don’t do those things, Richard and Rachel Ann are freaks, or that that isn’t socializing women to fear stranger rape, or that avoiding being alone with men does not curtail social or professional opportunities? I’m puzzled.
Well, Sheelzebub, what can I say. If you’re afraid of certain bars, what can I say, you and I don’t probably live in the same place, so I can’t evaluate it. I don’t go to bars a lot, but when I do, I go where I want to go. No one has ever told me not to, and I’ve never had a bad experience. Except overpriced under-concocted drinks. And what the Brits call “pub grub.” (Yuck.)
I have no idea whether you’re unsafe driving alone at night. (Where do you live?) I do it all the time. Also walk alone. Also travel by myself, all the time. Are these things unsafe? How do I know? Nothing’s ever happened to me, at least, and no one ever told me I shouldn’t do any of these things. I can’t answer for what you were “told.” (By whom?)
You panicked when approached by two guys in a park. OK. I’m sort of at a loss. “Should” you have panicked? How the heck do I know? I walk around alone in parks on two continents, not to mention the utter wilderness, all by myself, all the time. Maybe I need better advice? I don’t know what to say.
I ride elevators all the time, since so much of my work is in high rise office buildings. I have, all my adult life. (How else do I get there? Climb 43 flights of stairs?) I can’t remember looking to see who was or was not in there when I got in. No bad thing has ever happened. You’re the first one, actually, to mention this to me.
Well, if you’re angry, maybe you have good reasons to be angry. How can I say? On the other hand, maybe you’re starting at shadows.
You’ve listed a lot of alleged dangers, about which you were “told.” But…what if no one “told” you? What if the whole thing is made up? How do I know?
I’m puzzled too.
No one ever told me to “avoid being alone with a man.” Maybe I just missed that one? On the other hand, how could I practice law using that rule, given that so many of my clients, so many of my opposing counsel, so many of my co-counsel, are men?
I don’t know Richard and Rachel, so I have no idea whether they are “freaks” or not. I do know that no woman can function in the business world while keeping this lunatic rule, but … hey, OK. I guess.
What’s your point here? That if someone or other (“John and Mary”) taught their son never to be alone with any woman, that that’s normative? Or that it wouldn’t constrict his professional life? (It would, big time. He couldn’t function.) Or that that’s OK somehow, and that would be why? Or that these people said this proved…what?
Susan,
Also, have you really never heard a man comment on how some woman is an uptight bitch who could really use a good fuck? Have you never heard anyone joke about how someone who they didn’t like who was going to prison shouldn’t bend over to pick up the soap in the shower? Both of those are examples of rape as socially condoned social control.
Perhaps you are unfamiliar with the Florida case several years back in which a judge through out a rape case because the woman who was raped was wearing a lace skirt without underwear. Do you not consider that to be socially condoned rape as a means of controlling women’s clothing choices? What do you think was going on there?
And yes, if you absolutely insist, I’ll find a link for that case, but surely the idea that such a thing would happen does not strike you as unlikely?
I think a lot of the questions about just what kind of society, exactly, we live in can be answered by the fact that most of us seemingly read this…
I think I’d rather be raped than spend the rest of my life turning aside from what I wanted and settling for something less.
…without stopping to consider what a fucked-up choice that is. That it’s a risk assessment many women have to make (not exclusively in a sexual context; women sometimes have to make employment choices or decisions of conscience, e.g. testifying as a witness or against an assailant, under the threat of rape) and that we accept such a statement without recoiling with shock is telling, no?
You’ve listed a lot of alleged dangers, about which you were “told.” But…what if no one “told” you? What if the whole thing is made up? How do I know?
You know, Susan, I’ve been trying to be civil, and put the bitchery on hold. Well fuck it. You’re acting like a patronizing assclown. Drop it. What if everything you’re saying is made up? How do I know? Perhaps I can just tell you you’re full of shit and dismiss you, the way you’ve done to me. Your experiences certainly don’t jibe with those of the majority of women who’ve been posting here.
So maybe I can take your tack and just tell you that maybe you’re making it up, what can I say, how do I know? How fucking passive-agressive pseudo civil can you get?
I lived in Japan, a nation that prides itself on its safety. But I was still exhorted to stay out of certain areas of the city after ten, and other areas of the city altogether. People insisted there was no rape there–but it was unsafe for women to go out in certain neighborhoods or stay out late. I still did, but I did get hassled at times, and there were assaults you’d hear about. Same when I lived in England (sans the insistence that it was known for being a safe country). You aren’t the only one who’s been to different continents.
As for your comments about what I was “told”–maybe you’re just deaf. Every time the news covers another woman who was assaulted, everyone I know talks about what she did, where she went, and how she could have done things differently.
Charles,
1. “Also, have you really never heard a man comment on how some woman is an uptight bitch who could really use a good fuck?”
No. Actually, I haven’t.
2. “Have you never heard anyone joke about how someone who they didn’t like who was going to prison shouldn’t bend over to pick up the soap in the shower?”
No.
3. “Perhaps you are unfamiliar with the Florida case several years back in which a judge through out a rape case because the woman who was raped was wearing a lace skirt without underwear. Do you not consider that to be socially condoned rape as a means of controlling women’s clothing choices? What do you think was going on there?”
I am not familiar with that case. I have not read the case report (if any), and so I cannot comment. Your report may be accurate, or it may not be. I can’t tell, with this amount of “information.”
4. “And yes, if you absolutely insist, I’ll find a link for that case, but surely the idea that such a thing would happen does not strike you as unlikely?”
On your “evidence” such as it is, I find it quite likely. Injustices and screw-ups happen in our court systems daily, since they are administered by human beings. Proving that this one case was badly handled will prove just that: that this case was badly handled. Nothing more. Go ahead and find the cite if you wish, but if I were you, I wouldn’t bother.
It would be like citing the OJ Simpson case to prove that we sanction murder. We don’t, but we don’t always handle every case well. When you find a legal system that does, please, don’t hesitate to tell us where it is.
wow, susan is made of steel.
a couple weeks ago a woman was pulled off the bike path near my house- the bike path that i’m on almost every day- at around 8:45 at night, and raped in some nearby bushes. i know that stranger rape is rare. i know that i ride pretty fast on my bike, and it wouldn’t be that easy to keep up with me on foot. i know it’s pretty unlikely that the same guy (or even another) is going to do that in the same place. however, as i was watching the news, i still thought to myself ‘damn, should i be careful about going through there after dark?’ (and dark now arrives before the workday is done.) i’m not going to stop using the bike path, but i can guarantee you that for a little while at least, i’m going to think about that rape every time i go through that particular intersection, especially since the guy hasn’t been caught. i don’t think i’m unreasonable. i think my reaction is normal, and i know that lots of women all over the city are thinking the same as me- and probably some of them are changing their behavior- driving instead of taking the path, waiting to leave with another person, etc. this is one little thing, and these little things all add up. this is how rape affected me just in the last 2 weeks. (and i’m also thinking there aren’t a lot of men who are worried about taking the path- and now it’s even clearer- fewer women!)
i don’t understand how susan has escaped all this… but i don’t remember oakland being so idyllic when i was there 2 months ago. there’s something to be said about being determined, and it’s great to be unaffected by threats, but there’s reasonable determination, and then there’s being a rock. and even if you don’t notice it, how can you deny that most women do experience this?
Can you think of ways in which men benefit from rape? in some vague ways, but let me answer these questions and see if it can be clarified by answering them
Do you think that the threat of rape curtails women’s freedom of movement and choice, and if so, how do men benefit from this?
Oh god yes. I’ll take an analogy, the threat of violence curtails my movements as a gay male. I tend not walk in certain areas alone and _definitely_ worry about showing affection to my partner. I’ve even worry about being a SS-headed household in some areas. I know my female friends have a much more limited range of freedom.
Do men benefit from women feeling threatened in public space … do men have better employment opportunities, access to resources, access to recreation, access to politics, access to legislative opportunities because women are threatened with rape if they use public space in the same way men do?
Yes, I can see this, though I guess the point I need more information on is how rape is the main culprit in the limited access to employment opportunities, resources, legislative opportunities. It seems the social acceptance of rape stems from male dominance and not necessarily vice versa (though the more I think about it, the more the two become intertwined)
How do you think that “uppity” women react when threatened with rape? How do you think “strong” women react when threatened with rape?
not sure what this is exactly asking.
Do you think there is a direct social impact on the presence (and freedom) of women in public becuase of the universal threat of rape that exists?
in a word, yes. My first inclination is to believe that the legal and social strictures against women had/have to be eliminated to. but it really is getting to become a question of chicken/egg to me right now… dominence leads to rape, rape leads to dominance.
either way, both need to be eliminated. post haste.
and to the question above, about ‘uppity’ and ‘strong’ women. As a gay male with a partner raising a almost 4 year old ‘uppity/strong’ girl and possibly soon adding two more uppity/strong daughters to the mix (possibility of adopting a 10 yo and a 2yo in the next few months), i am _sincerely_ interested in all this discussion.
till now, i hope you understand why, race and our family structure have been much more pressing issues (because of societal reaction) to educate ourselves and tackle on a personal basis (I am ‘white’, partner is latino/white, daughter is AA, soon-to-be-maybe daughters are mixed race)… gender is important, extremely, but its our race and family structure that has had the most blatant rejection…
but how to raise three women the best possible way in our society is foremost in our thoughts.
Oh, I get Susan’s tactic. She sticks her fingers in her ears and sings LALALALALALALALA NOOOOO I’VE NEVER EXPERIENCED THAAAATTTT.
Here’s a ticket to the clue train for you, Susan. Most women have heard the “uptight bitch” BS. I do remember that case in Florida. And I remember a recent case in Orange County where the rape survivor, who was gang raped while passed out, was slut-baited, accused of raping the assailants, and stalked. I remember a case near where I lived when a woman was gang-raped on a pool table in a bar, with the patrons cheering. She was blamed for it–she shouldn’t have been there. And yes, Susan, she was blamed for it. Even if you had your fingers in your ears and didn’t listen and refused to hear it.
Sheelzebub,
I’ve never been to Japan, and I have no idea what the social system there may be.
I’ve been to England, and have spent considerable time in Scotland, since I have a daughter who lives there. And of course I’ve lived in California all my life. So I do think I know what’s going on here.
And this furthers our conversation how?
My experience is my experience. I can’t be responsible for your experiences, or anyone else’s. (So far as you’ve said, your experiences – as opposed to your anxieties – correspond closely with my own.) I think I have as much right to explain my experiences and perceptions as you do, as anyone else does.
(And if not, why not?)
however, susan does seem to have found one way out of the blame-the-victim vs. feeling-helpless dichotomy i brought up on the other thread: just pretend it’s not happening! smile, and go cheerfully on your way!
One doesn’t hape to be a rapist to enjoy male privilege, any more than one has to be a KKK member to enjoy white privilege. Speaking as a white person who has never burned a cross on someone’s lawn,
that isn’t my question really AB. I KNOW I enjoy white and male privilege. I know it in a very and deeply personal ways i won’t elaborate on. That is NOT a question. My question was whether dominance gave rise to a ‘rape culture’ or a ‘rape culture’ gave rise to dominence.. am I enjoying the privileges of a ‘rape culture’ or a culture of dominence? (though as you might see from the earlier comment, I’m starting to think there is no either/or in that)
wow, susan is made of steel.
Nope, just a troll.
Susan,
Quick answers:
Yes (if enough people do it). No. No. In a group of less then 100 posters on a liberal blog, 2 advocate teaching girls to avoid spending time alone with men. Several others come close. This suggests that this position (while actually practiced by very few, since it does as you say make life virtually impossible to live) is not particularly uncommon to teach.
As you say, this position (women shouldn’t go to bars, walk alone at night, spend time alone with men) is crippling and destructive (and actually not particularly good protection either). That is my point. That is QGrrl’s point. That is part of how rape is used as social control. The people doing the social controlling don’t actually need to rape. They don’t need to approve of rape. They merely need to use the fear of rape to control women’s actions. And they don’t need to be conscious that that is what they are doing.
Trey: I think of rape as the tool, not the outcome of dominance.
1. “Most women have heard the “uptight bitch” BS.”
I wasn’t asked whether “most women” have heard this. (How would I know?) I’m just saying I haven’t, which is what I was asked. Ya wanna tell me I have? How would you know?
2. “I do remember that case in Florida. And I remember a recent case in Orange County where the rape survivor, who was gang raped while passed out, was slut-baited, accused of raping the assailants, and stalked. I remember a case near where I lived when a woman was gang-raped on a pool table in a bar, with the patrons cheering.”
Well, I haven’t heard about any of these cases, which doesn’t mean they didn’t happen. Miscarriages of justice happen every single day. This is news?
I repeat, if you-all know of a legal system that works properly every time, please, do not hesitate to let us know where that is.
Susan, don’t go pulling this passive-aggressive crap. You came off as patronizing. Oh, and seeing as how I lived in England and Japan, I think I know what’s going on there too. How ’bout that.
But to paraphrase you–telling me that I could be making everything I said up furthers the conversation. . .how?
A good way to see this is by viewing TV. One of the top leading storylines (other than murder) is rape. And we call it entertainment and innocuous. Rape as entertainment. Who woulda thunk?
My experience is my experience. I can’t be responsible for your experiences, or anyone else’s. (So far as you’ve said, your experiences – as opposed to your anxieties – correspond closely with my own.) I think I have as much right to explain my experiences and perceptions as you do, as anyone else does.
(And if not, why not?)
Nice red herring. Fry it up for your lunch. I never said you can’t give your perceptions or experiences. I called you out on saying that I could be making mine up.
I find myself wondering if this is the same commenter from the rape thread a while back There is the same utter lack of understanding of what other commenters have written, there is the same denial. The only new thing is the passive-agressive, sophmoric “How would I know? How do I know you’re telling the truth? Maybe none of you are real. Maybe you are all just figments of my imagination, ” nonsense. The only thing that is missing is the “y’all” in every comment. I suspect she’s back and here to troll. Ignore her (hard as that can be) and maybe there can actually be useful discussion.
1. “Also, have you really never heard a man comment on how some woman is an uptight bitch who could really use a good fuck?”
No. Actually, I haven’t.
2. “Have you never heard anyone joke about how someone who they didn’t like who was going to prison shouldn’t bend over to pick up the soap in the shower?”
No.
Really? I’m not trying to faceticious Susan, but these two scenarios seem extremely common to me. I don’t hear the first very often any more, but used to ALL the time in my earlier days.. though I have to say, I heard it on TV just a couple months ago in a sitcom as a joke (can’t remember which one) somewhere along the lines of “She’s so uptight.. she just needs sex” (a milder but no less obnoxious sentiment than ‘the uptight bitch needs a good fuck”)
the second I swear I hear nearly every time the word ‘prison’ is used in a conversation.. that along with ‘he’ll become somone’s bitch’ etc, etc.
i’m not doubting your experiences, but living in this society I’m surprise you’ve never heard them.
I’d agree. If girls are told this, it’s crippling. No one should say this to anyone.
I’m just saying that I was never told this, and I don’t know anyone who was. Girls who were told this shouldn’t have been.
I don’t know where you-all are. I grew up in Los Angeles; now I practice law in Oakland. I’m pretty ordinary, really. I drive around, I go to bars, I walk in parks, all that.
I was never told any of this. I’m not “pretending”, I just never heard of anything about it. You here are the first time I’ve encountered this mind-set. I’m not made of steel, neither am I a troll. I’m just puzzled.
We’re all fine out here,so far as I can tell. I’m 60 years old. No one ever told me about this whole thing, so I never knew about it. Elevators? Ya gotta be kidding!! Parks? Bars? I just missed this whole thing. Maybe no one dared to make the “uptight bitch” comment to me? Gosh, I just don’t know.
What you-all seem to be saying is that my experience isn’t valid because it doesn’t correspond to your idea of what my experience “should have” been. I’d suggest that this is just a tad out of line? If your experience is valid, so is mine.
trey,
I don’t have time to watch TV. This is the answer maybe?
susan, the only anwer could be that your head has been in a big box of sand for 60 years. or that you’re lying.
trey,
I don’t have time to watch TV. This is the answer maybe?
no, not really. I just used the tv as an example of what is in our culture, most of the comments I hear have been from real live people.
I don’t know where you-all are.
Damn! (pats self on back) I was actually right. She’s already proven, over an extended dialogue, that there is no use trying to talk to her.
Trey: I think of rape as the tool, not the outcome of dominance.
I can see that, though I am not quite clear on it yet. guess I could ask it this way.. Would getting rid of male dominance get rid of rape? or Would getting rid of rape get rid of male dominence. Again, coming down to a personal level, I’m not sure what this means to two men raising three girls, but after reading some more, maybe I’ll come back to the discussion if i think it will help me.
Susan wrote “I’m a bit tired of this relentless generalization of what is, after all, criminal behavior.”
Well…I’m tired of the relentless generalization of what is after all, normal *human* behavior…that is, characterizing as risk FOR WOMEN, behavior that the rest of humanity is free to participate in without it being seen as somehow “tempting fate” or “careless” or any of the other blame the victim ways it’s described.
Well, jane, how would I know about the sand.
I was born in 1945. I went to elementary school and high school in the Los Angeles area; I went to college up here in SF Bay Area. I hold an MA in History and a doctorate in law.
I’ve worked all over. As a clerk and a grub worker right out of school; as an attorney after grad school. I have four children, three grandchildren so far. I’m still married to the same guy I married in 1966.
I’m a partner in a downtown law firm now. Our youngest child is a daughter, now 21.
I don’t know how big a bucket of sand it would take, but maybe you’re right. But I’m not lying, that I’m sure of.
I don’t know where you are, jane. Maybe it’s geography? Or not watching TV? (Who has time?) Or maybe I’m just dense?
What I’m not willing to accept is the idea that because my experience doesn’t correspond to the Politically Correct Experience here, I’m a liar. Maybe you-all don’t know everything? Just a thought.
What you-all seem to be saying is that my experience isn’t valid because it doesn’t correspond to your idea of what my experience “should have” been.
Well, no reason to hide it any longer. This is exactly what happened last time Susan commented on a rape thread. The next thing out of her keyboard will probably be something about the “prevailing orthodoxy.”
Go on, Susan, get it out of your system. Or, if you want, I can just find that tattered old thread & link to it so that your responses to this post will have already been written. Think about how much time that will save! If you really exist.
Trey: I’m not sure that there is a direct correlation between ending rape with the ending of male dominance. I would guess that rape would no longer play such a large role in socializing women and would become more of the abberrant crime it should be.
What you-all seem to be saying is that my experience isn’t valid because it doesn’t correspond to your idea of what my experience “should have” been. I’d suggest that this is just a tad out of line? If your experience is valid, so is mine.
You’re the one who told me I could be making my experiences up. Or that I could be cringing at shadows. Odd how you can dish it out but can’t take it.
I actually think that as bad as rape-fear and rape itself are here in the USA, it’s probably pretty good compared to other cultures. I lived in S America in my twenties where men CONSTANTLY followed me in the street, said disgusting things and even touched me a few times. I mean EVERY day, even when I was very pregnant. Most of the women there shrugged it off, but many of them curtailed their walking around alone time as much as possible. There was something so menacing, so hostile about it. I have never gotten that here.
I know what Susan is trying to say: calm down. It is a lot about perception. Yes, the danger that a sick psycho will attack you is there, but it doesn’t mean that you can’t jut put things into perspective. Don’t let the fear take over your life, it’s worse than the crime itself. That said, It’s not so terrible to have to be careful. Men have to be careful too. They are assaulted much more often than women are, although there’s not that cultural fear of your whole life being ruined from a rape.
But that’s why we are lucky to live here and now- despite the bullshit, rape in our country no longer “ruins” a woman. It doesn’t have the power it once had.
I hope we can keep doing a good job of telling our daughters that it’s not them, it’s the creeps- not men, creeps.
Sheelszbub,
I never said you were making your experiences up. I just pointed out that nothing in fact happened in the incident you related.
Susan said: What I’m not willing to accept is the idea that because my experience doesn’t correspond to the Politically Correct Experience here, I’m a liar. Maybe you-all don’t know everything? Just a thought.
Pretty ironic for someone who told me this:
Well, if you’re angry, maybe you have good reasons to be angry. How can I say? On the other hand, maybe you’re starting at shadows.
You’ve listed a lot of alleged dangers, about which you were “told.” But…what if no one “told” you? What if the whole thing is made up? How do I know?
Happy passive-aggressive day, Susan.
Uh, it’s not so much about the fear. It’s about how one segment of the population is wililng to manipulate fear and use threats of physical violation in order to maintain their dominance.
Crap! I missed that one. “Prevailing orthodoxy” is now “Politically Correct Experience.” Well, 50% isn’t bad – better than my usual prognosticory history.
Well, I wouldn’t know whether Susan is really a 24 yr-old ex-frat boy w/ an unhealthy interest in rape. But that could just be my experience. I don’t know whether Susan is just an infinite number of monkeys at an infinite number of keyboards. All I know is that I’m here and I can’t see or hear or smell any of you. Maybe I’m in a coma and you are all my dream. All I can know for sure is what I perceive. The accumulated experiences of 10s or 100s or millions of others has no influence on me. Only my experience is valid. I don’t know what any of you are talking about. Leave me alone! Why did you come into my space if this is how you’re going to treat me. You’re all horrible people of the Politically Correct Experience Prevailing Orthodoxy.
Whew. Maybe I’ve got that out of my system now. Not productive, but fulfilling nonetheless.
Jake, cool it off. Sorry my experiences don’t correspond to your ideas of what they should be. I assume from your name that you’re male. Your reaction is an example of how men shouldn’t control women how? You’re even ready to tell me what my experiences are!!
You SO know better than I do, right? Yes, Massah!
Jake, I’ll send you a picture if you want. You have my real email address. Check it out.
I never said you were making your experiences up. I just pointed out that nothing in fact happened in the incident you related.
Yes you did.
You’ve listed a lot of alleged dangers, about which you were “told.” But…what if no one “told” you? What if the whole thing is made up? How do I know?
And nothing happening in those experiences I told you about doesn’t negate the fear or the so-called conventional wisdom about women and safety. The prevailing point–that women are kept under control by fear and intimidation still stands.
But go on. I’m just dying to hear about the prevailing orthodoxy again. I just love me some reruns!
Elena said: I know what Susan is trying to say: calm down. It is a lot about perception. Yes, the danger that a sick psycho will attack you is there, but it doesn’t mean that you can’t jut put things into perspective.
Oddly enough, in the thread that Nick referenced, people were taking the opposite tack and berating her for not being paranoid enough. Again, we can’t win for losing.
Perhaps the two sides can have a little conference and get their stories straight.
Jake, cool it off. Sorry my experiences don’t correspond to your ideas of what they should be. I assume from your name that you’re male. Your reaction is an example of how men shouldn’t control women how? You’re even ready to tell me what my experiences are!!
Oh, how she dishes it out. Oh, how she whines when it’s served right back to her.
I just thought this needed repeating.
All I know is that I’m here and I can’t see or hear or smell any of you. Maybe I’m in a coma and you are all my dream. All I can know for sure is what I perceive. The accumulated experiences of 10s or 100s or millions of others has no influence on me. Only my experience is valid. I don’t know what any of you are talking about. Leave me alone! Why did you come into my space if this is how you’re going to treat me. You’re all horrible people of the Politically Correct Experience Prevailing Orthodoxy.
You are in a VR consensual hallucination generated by the Politically Correct Prevailing Orthodoxy, LLC. You are one of the charecters in this hallucination. I know you can’t smell anyone, but the people who pay to enter can smell each other. If they want. We at the PCPO don’t want to know–just pay up and use the hour.
Solipsism, they name is Susan.
Pingback: Feministe » Links and Links
Q, try again, your message doesn’t make sense.
Susan,
The point is the fear and how it restricts (and where it comes from and why).
As far as I can tell, you don’t disagree with anyone here that rape happens. You don’t disagree with anyone here that if something bad happens to you, people will tell you that you were stupid to doing whatever it is they think allowed it to happen to you (although do you really think that 20 year old men who are in horse accidents are told they are stupid to ride horse back? You don’t think your age or your sex has any influence on what response you get?). You don’t disagree that you should generally ignore people who tell you stuff like that, and that you shouldn’t let fear rule your life.
As far as I can tell, the only thing you really disagree about is whether one should ever analyze things beyond “Oh sure, there are miscarriages of justice,” in response to the persistent judicial mistreatment of rape victims. It seems that if OJ had gotten off because the judge said, ” sure you killed your wife, but you were just defending your honor as a wronged husband, no crime here,” that you would see that as being pretty much the same as what happened, and wouldn’t feel that it showed anything about our culture except that occasionally miscarriages of justice happen and you really can’t expect this to be a perfect world.
And, no I flat out don’t believe that no one has ever made a soap joke in your presence. That you haven’t noticed it or remembered it, maybe I could accept. That it has never been said in your presence, that no one before now has ever referenced the concept in your presence, I simply don’t believe. The rape as corrective for uppity women one is less common now by far, so maybe no one has said that anywhere near you any time recently, but surely you have encountered the concept some time in your 60 years before I just mentioned it? Do you think that that concept represents anything, or are the people who believe it more meaningless aberrations?
Yeah, Q! Using ten-dollar words like Solipsim.
You Politically Correct Prevailing Orthodoxy harridian you!
Of course it doesn’t. I don’t really exist.
Solipsism, thy name is Susan.
Is that better?
Come on, Q Grrl. Rapists are criminals, not garden variety men. Have some higher expectations- you sound like the people who want us all to wear burqas.
Hag and damn proud of it Sheelzebub.
Hey, guys, call it what you will. I’ve lived in this world and make my living in it for a long long time. We’ve put four kids through college. We’re not exactly incompetent, nor do we have blinders on. Or if we do, it hasn’t hurt us much so far as I can tell.
You-all don’t like my experience. I’m not sure why. Perhaps it doesn’t correspond to what you think my experience “should be.” (Like you should know.) Or my experience doesn’t serve your agenda. Or whatever.
You-all who are ready to tell me that my experience isn’t my experience are a collective piece of work. How does this differ from men who want to dictate to women what our experience “should be”?
It doesn’t. That you dictators are mostly women doesn’t change it a whit. It’s still outsiders dictating someone else’s experience.
Sorry sorry sorry. I’m really totally downtrodden, I see it now, if that makes you happy. I can’t walk alone, drive alone, get into elevators alone, go to bars alone. I’m totally housebound by this evil society.
Sorry, gotta go now. I have meetings. With men. I have to ride elevators. I’ll probably be raped, right?
Charles,
“And, no I flat out don’t believe that no one has ever made a soap joke in your presence. ”
Ah yes, Massah Male. You like totally know better than I do what people have or have not said in my presence. I SO am grateful for your intepretation.
It’s not your experiences that I find lacking, it’s your deductive reasoning.
I’m not making Sweeping Generalizations about what has or has not been done or said. I’m just relating my own experiences.
So shoot me.
Elena, read the blame-the-victim first contingent in the thread that Nick references, and cut the crap with the red herrings. Q is simply saying that the fear of rape is used to keep us in our place.
And I’ll repeat–we do seem to be in a double bind. If I’m attacked, I’m stupid for going off with someone/being out late at night/being in a certain place/inviting someone in, whatever. If I excersize caution, I’m paranoid. And now want people to wear burkas. Who knew?
Again–maybe the “stupid” side and the “paranoid” side can get together for lunch and hammer out a consistent manifesto. Something like this:
If you are raped, it’s because you’re stupid and were careless. But if you’re cautious, you’re a paranoid member of the Politically Correct Orthodoxy who wants everyone to wear burkas.
Okay, so it’s not consistent, but I’ve learned to not expect consistency from the “stupid” or the “paranoid” contingent in these discussions.
>>Really? I’m not trying to faceticious Susan, but these two scenarios seem extremely common to me. I don’t hear the first very often any more, but used to ALL the time in my earlier days.. though I have to say, I heard it on TV just a couple months ago in a sitcom as a joke (can’t remember which one) somewhere along the lines of “She’s so uptight.. she just needs sex” (a milder but no less obnoxious sentiment than ‘the uptight bitch needs a good fuck”)>>
Prison rape was a threat on Veronica Mars last night. Twice. And for some primo rape-threats for women, check out this thread on flea’s blog: http://buggydoo.blogspot.com/2005/04/missive-from-tightass-original-message.html
Again, Susan, let me remind you what you said:
You’ve listed a lot of alleged dangers, about which you were “told.” But…what if no one “told” you? What if the whole thing is made up? How do I know?
Don’t like your medicine? Tough. You sure were happy to dismiss and disbelieve my experience.
But now we’re dictators. Who knew?
Histrionic much, Susan? This ain’t Pinochet’s Chile. For someone who poo-poohs everyone else’s experience, you sure do go into spin overdrive and scream oppression when your posts are criticized and your (lack of) logic is pointed out.
Piny, they don’t exist. And if they do, it’s because the women were stupid. And if you don’t believe me, then you’re a dictator.
Thank you, Nick! Well done. ^_^
Also:
> Trey: I think of rape as the tool, not the outcome of dominance.
Thank you, Q Grrrl. That crystallized some of my own thoughts.
Rebecca
*blush* er, minus one r.
hee!
Damn, he’s onto us.
Susan’s experiences differ from other people’s experiences. Great. I wanna talk about Nick’s experiences.
To summarize: Nick basically rocks. She assesses the danger; she feels the fear; she decides; she acts. She has borne (virtually) all of the consequences of her own actions. I find little basis to judge her (but some basis to admire her).
Sex provokes many emotions. The “orthodox” perspective is that sex is dangerous, and should be avoided outside of marriage. But Nick points out that the people saying this (parents, etc.) are generally people who have everything to gain and nothing to lose if you listen. Their pay-offs are not your pay-offs, and you are rational to bear this fact in mind as you hear their advice.
Nick complains that she is discouraged exercising her autonomy to engage in perfectly harmless, legal behavior due to concern for illegal conduct by others. Wracked with frustration, she indignantly objects that 1. it is wrong to let others’ criminal activity restrict her lawful activity, and 2. it won’t work, because she runs the same risks no matter how she behaves.
Her first point is a statement of belief and/or law. I agree with it 100%.
Her second point is a statement of fact. I find it hard to believe that a person who solicits anonymous sex does not place herself in a greater risk of rape than a person who does not. At the risk of seeking the authority of a white male, I know Ampersand has steeped himself in rape statistics; maybe he has some insights to share.
For better or worse, I expect that Nick really could reduce her chances of being raped if she refrained from soliciting sex with strangers. I also suspect that, for people who live in a constant awareness of threat, there’s something attractive about fatalism. I hear that Israelis become hardened to the threat of terrorist attack ““ not actually immune, but kind of resigned or resolved not to carry on. I don’t mean to demean Nick’s sincerity, only to acknowledge a possible psychological dynamic.