(First, kudos to Amanda Marcotte whose comment and link here in the Daily Kos Kerfuzzle thread served as the inspiration for this post)
How ingrained is our culture’s prominent “past-time” of ‘guilt tripping the sexual assault/rape victim for the attack’ in our psyches–especially the victims’? Whenever we begin to talk about the perpetrator (usually a guy) it seems as if we just throw up our hands in surrender and say, “yeah well, he’s a guy. Guys do that so watch out ladies.” Once again we slam the victims and women with all the responsibility for the attack, as if they raped or sexually assaulted themselves. When we list whose to blame for the attack and crime, we list everyone, including the victim, but rarely–if ever–the attacker. Or he’s at the bottom of the list and is portrayed as the least responsible for the attack. It’s the “we can’t help what guys do, but women should bear all the burden when it comes to prevention of sexual violence,” mentality of our culture. Rape Culture 101; guys are entitled to get sex on demand, to sexually harass, commit sexual assualt, and rape. And it’s all your fault if it happens to you. Guys can’t help themselves after all.
No one–I’m certainly not saying that women shouldn’t take precautions to protect themselves, but that’s a mere ‘band aid’ solution to the problem. The root of the problem here is that we barely or don’t at all take steps to educate young men about sexual violence prevention. While girls and young women are lectured on what not to do in certain scenarios in social settings, what do we do with the guys? Why are we so afraid to lecture them on “why they shouldn’t rape or sexually assault?” Why do we keep making up excuses for their behavior and crimes, but continue to scold the female victims for their attack? Boys will be boys; a tenet of the Rape Culture. Steve Gilliard’s post on the missing young woman in Aruba and his comment are prime examples of how we make up excuses for guys’ behavior towards women, and expect women to foresee their own attack. Never mind the guys’ responsibility in the attack at all–that doesn’t count.
I don’t think it’s not so much that “she got what she deserve”, but a media refusal to look at their conduct and say these girls were placed in a less than optimal situation. I would also bet no one had an honest discussion with them about acting like adults and making adult choices. Of course not. It was a “Christian” school. So they could get drunk, fuck any cute boy and no one would say things like:
“Be careful. Don’t just go off with any cute boy. He may not act that cute when you’re alone.”
“Carry condoms and lube”
“When you get drunk, you tend to make shitty decisions. So stick together and don’t let someone go off alone.”
Now, I’ve always been confused as to why a girl would go off with three guys. Was she going to pull a train? Or did she have two spare sex organs for them to use? Because otherwise, that sounds like a really bad decision. One which she should have been warned against. Boys in groups tend to do things they wouldn’t do alone. And the expectation of sex must have been high.
And we continue to gloss over the perpetrators and focus our blame squarely on the victim. Yes she didn’t make very good decisions but how does that warrant rape or sexual assault? How are rape and sexual assault “okay” decisions for guys? It’s okay to rape or sexually assault if the young woman made a poor decision? Is that what we tell guys? And his comment…
[…] Because you can’t tell someone to not brutalize women. Most men won’t do that, but if they do, you can’t say “hey, you know rape is wrong”. Most guys know that. The ones that don’t aren’t going to listen to a lecture.
The best we can do is say “look, some guys are assholes and you need to watch out for them.”
Now, you can tell boys that it isn’t OK to screw the drunk or hit women, but most guys aren’t going to do that anyway. But the problem for women is the guys that do and dealing with them.
[…]
I think women have a more idealistic view of men than men do. Chris Rock summed it up: “if a man comes up to you over the age of 13 and asks you if you want help, he’s saying ‘you want some dick with that?’
Women tend to resist the idea that most men size them up sexually. I can assure you that if there’s a boy in your daughter’s life and he’s a “friend”, he’s either not interested in her, or is just biding his time. But the idea of sex has crossed his mind.
The same applies to all your coworkers and opposite sex friends. If they’re straight, they have either thought about having sex with you or reasons why they shouldn’t.
But the issue is on the table.
Have you ever been out with a friend and then suddenly he got grabby or romantic and you didn’t expect it. Now, you might have written that off, but it happens because men rate women sexually, and that one time might be the time he actually acted on his feelings.
So when I say men will do anything for sex, I’m not just saying that. It’s observed behavior.
We continue to ignore the elephant in the room whenever we talk about sexual violence and prevention. We conveniently forget all about the perpetrator and focus on the [female] victim, and lecture them on why it’s all their fault. So much for those karate lessons and pepper spray–it’s still your fault. Gee, why don’t we just come out and say, “well if you didn’t have a vagina you wouldn’t have been attacked.” That’s the hint if you really think about.
And here are some questions about violence to ponder, that ties into our rape culture. Via V-Day: Until The Violence Stops…
What frightens you about giving up violence?
What are you afraid of losing?
What do you secretly like about violence?
How will sex change when there is no more violence?
What stories will you have to give up when you give up violence? what parts of your past will you have to release?
Why do you think ending violence is impossible?
Do you know anywhere in the world where there is no violence? describe.
Do you know anyone who truly lives non-violently? describe.
What is violence?
Where does it come from?
Do you believe violence is part of human nature?
Do you believe violence is taught?
What is the relationship of violence to patriarchy?
Do you think violence has to do with race, class, a particular place?
What would have to change in the world in order to end violence?
What would have to change in you in order to end violence?
What makes you violent?
What stops you from being violent?
Who has been violent towards you?
How did this change who you are?
Do you believe it is possible to end violence? why? why not?
Oh Aegis, that’s so disingenious and you know it. On this board you’ve been veritably beat over the head with the notion that feminists do not support the concept of only male initiated sex. You’ve had it discussed ad nauseum in hopes for you to understand that you were operating under a misconception.
The people holding to the expectation of male initiated sex acts are -not- feminists, but in fact gender-role advocates. Feminists (for the umpteenth time) in general do not push gender-roles because they are unhealthy when forced upon a culture, be they roles for women or men.
This is hypocritical to your earlier statements (the ones I backed up in relating the story of how my husband was raped by a young woman his first time). As you stated, a body can accomodate a rape and show ‘signs’ of willingness when there is lack of consent. All it takes is a quick and painless ‘we’re on the same page here, right? we both want this?’, and voila, problem solved.
Aegis,
OK, this time I think I actually get where you’re coming from. I don’t have time to write a proper response now (have to go meet friends) but I’ll get back to you later.
One quick comment though – I think you’re being way too quick to blame all feminists for being unsympathetic or unwilling to try to communicate clearly with young men. I’m a feminist woman who would be happy to talk to high school kids about what yes looks like, why the passive woman/active man frame is bullshit etc but do you really think any high school in the country would let me do that? The religious right has spent the last 20 years directing money and resources at the project of trying to scare kids into not having sex, and trying to convince the general public not to listen to anything feminists have to say. I do think that I get your gripe at this point, but you’re blaming the wrong people. Your enemy isn’t feminism, it’s the wingnuts who want to shoe-horn both men and women into rigid gender roles and punish anyone who steps out of line.
Also, I have to point out that on the other thread there were a number of women trying to talk to you and help you understand all this and you didn’t seem to be very willing to listen. It was as if you were so stuck on the idea of gender roles as essential and unchangeable that nothing anyone said was getting through. Feminists can talk about this till we’re blue in the face but it doesn’t do a bit of good if men aren’t willing to listen.
All it takes is a quick and painless ‘we’re on the same page here, right? we both want this?’, and voila, problem solved.
Quick and painless, for some people. Not so quick, and not even close to painless, for many others.
As you stated, a body can accomodate a rape and show ‘signs’ of willingness when there is lack of consent
Physiological function is ambiguous, at best, to the question of consent. Yeah, I can have a hard-on in my sleep, and someone can come along and envelop it. So my penis has shown willingness. My penis isn’t me.
If I then wake up, start to cry and try to push my attacker off, vs. if I wake up, develop a shit-eating grin and start pumping away, then there is obviously a rape situation in the first scenario, consent (albeit ex-post-facto) in the second.
A woman’s vagina can lubricate during a rape. Only a complete dipshit would assume that meant she changed her mind and consented.
Pseudo-Adrienne,
I had a really sarcastic response to all of your accusations, but after reading over it, I decided to delete it. All I am going to say is that this is your thread, and I will attempt to abide by any guidelines you set. If you have a problem with something I say, please let me know, and why. Accusing me of being egotistical and ignorant is pointless, because unless you show exactly what kind of statement you view as egotistical/ignorant, I really have no way of knowing whether you are being uncharitable or misinterpeting me, or whether you are right and I should change my behavior.
Nah, I am not accusing feminists of supporting gender roles, and I’m not sure why you think I am saying that. What I am saying is that some of their solutions for dismantling gender roles may not work very well. In this case, I don’t think the type of date rape seminar I describe is the best way to deal with the problem of date rape. Of course, I don’t hold all feminists responsible for the fact that some feminists have such counterproductive strategies, because I know that not all feminists support such methods.
Far too many people seem to treat rape more like a disease that attacks individuals than an actual crime. There always seems to be the assumption, when rape prevention advice is given to women, that if we stop acting certain ways, rape will go away, or at least occur less often. It’s understood that when you put an alarm in your car or lock your front door that you are only discouraging a potential thief from stealing from you, you are not discouraging theft in general. Why does the assumption seem to be the opposite when it comes to rape?
Back in college, bike theft was rampant, and there was lots of advice on how to protect yourself from theft, but no one ever thought that even the people who left their bikes out on their front lawns overnight, unlocked, deserved what they got. No one ever thought that being able to leave your bike alone and unlocked for a few minutes, and not have it get stolen was an unreasonable expectation of how society should be – many of us grew up in places where anything else was unheard of. Even the police and school safety officers cautioned us to be reasonable in our efforts at protecting ourselves: they were very descriptive in not only what types of locks were best, but also on how little we should spend on things like locks.
It was understood that bike theft was rampant because the police had better things to worry about, not because we were careless or stupid. The focus was on our behaviour only because the police had more important things to concentrate on, not because this was the most effective way of dealing with the problem. When crime prevention focuses mostly on the behaviour of potential victims, it’s because society has decided that it has more “important shit” to worry about.
“Accusing me of being egotistical and ignorant is pointless, because unless you show exactly what kind of statement you view as egotistical/ignorant, I really have no way of knowing whether you are being uncharitable or misinterpeting me, or whether you are right and I should change my behavior.”
Reading through all your nauseatingly obnoxious comments in other “women, gender, and rape culture” threads demonstrates your ignorance and egotism, Aegis–hence why I (and others) think you are those things. So no, it isn’t pointless, it’s the reality and truth of how you behave in threads dealing with this particular subject. You will not bring that shit onto this thread. Perhaps listening to the other commenters and addressing their arguments, instead of you doing your usual condescending and offensive dismissal of them because you just somehow know better than them and they should just shut-up and listen to your 8 paragraph tangents, would make others actually welcome you to a discussion–rather than say “oh no it’s Aegis again.” Your past comments and behavior on other threads provide plenty of evidence of how you regard and treat other commenters, and it doesn’t bode well for you.
Well, you know, if feminists didn’t “hate men” or go around calling “all sex rape”….
Feminism may not have managed to teach society what a woman’s yes looks like – yet, but we still haven’t managed to abolish the pay gap either. It’s not Dworkin’s fault that people took her argument that sex doesn’t need to be defined as “male dominate/female subordinate” to mean that all sex is rape. Not saying mistakes haven’t been made, but isn’t that rather like complaining that the civil rights movement only managed to achieve desegregation on paper, but not in fact? It’s not like you could really teach anyone what a woman’s yes looks like while they are still confused on the whole “no means no” concept.
Encouraging people who are likely to be confused by body language and physical responses to get verbal confirmation is an important step in teaching them how to read body language, and a good safeguard in case they never do. I mean, I could be wrong, but I doubt the same people who said on the other thread that you ought to ask before the first kiss would argue that you should verbally ask your wife each time you kiss her.
No, just, um, the movement as a whole: “that seminar is one reason I distrust feminist attempts at social engineering:” (emp mine) or did you mean “most feminist attempts at social engineering?”
Well, our culture has no idea how men can go about initiating sex in a way that is comfortable for women, because our culture rarely cares how comfortable a woman is with sex, in fact our culture seems to prefer that women only have sex to please men.
Most feminists on the other hand, want women to be comfortable with sex. Most feminists also don’t expect men to be the only ones doing the initiating. Most feminists understand that real life situations are complicated, and try to avoid making prescriptions for behaviour that they are unsure of. Most feminists understand that women are individuals and will react differently to the same exact behaviour. Which is why most feminists place so much emphasis on verbal communication, it has its flaws, but it has the advantage of precision and accuracy in comparison to other types of communication, that’s why people use it so often.
Ah, ageis has arrived, our very own kid genius, birthed from the head of zeus with complete and superor knowledge of the world. It’s now taking this thread 5 minutes to load on my dial-up and while I was living with it for the intelligent and immensely interesting discussions (whether I agreed or disagreed, you all have been brilliant), aegis is the death knell for me. I feel pretty egotistical making a I’m-leaving announcement but I really just wanted to compliment everyone on the high quality of this thread.
Encouraging males to focus only on verbal consent actually encourages them to ignore women’s body language, physical responses, and emotions.
Um, no. No, it doesn’t.
Is it really that hard to respond to body language, physical responses, and emotions with a simple… “So, do you wanna?” How invasive is it to ask a simply question. Its a fundamental element of foreplay as far as I’m concerned. I know anti-feminists have detirmined that the response to “No means no” must be stacks of paper work that need to be filed out in triplicate and notorized prior to engaging in sexual intercourse, but we’re talking about asking a freakin’ question. “Do you want to have sex?” Think it can’t be sexy? Think again. Whenever I ask it, with a sly smile and a throwaway delivery, it enhances the mood. Because its cute and sweet and reminds her that I’m a good and respectful man all at the same time. So can it with acting like asking a woman is some kind of horrific beauracratic imposition. Its not.
There have been a good number of cases where the “victim”? has done something on purpose (but not necessarily for the effect that follows) to trigger the control aspect in the “rapist”?…where do we point the finger here? Well, most people only seem to have one pointing finger, so they have to choose which side to point it at! It doesn’t work that way in real life, people…a rapist preys on those who are weak. Even if you get the best martial arts training in the world or you carry that pepper spray like you’re gonna douse everyone who looks at you cross-eyed…sorry, this just isn’t enough. If you are perceived as weak, those who would control you have the means to do so.
You have got to be kidding, right? >:-/
Shorter Aegis, self-proclaimed humble spokesman of the young American male: men rape because feminists didn’t give them a manual on how to properly treat women, this weird alien species they never interacted with before.
Interesting man-driver, woman-car analogy too.
Isn’t this the most bullshit devious attempt at excusing both molestations and rape, to put it all down to being naive and inept, rather than an outright piece of shit?
Jenny K – When crime prevention focuses mostly on the behaviour of potential victims, it’s because society has decided that it has more “important shit”? to worry about.
True, sadly…
I think Aegis may have moved a little in the course of the arguments.
Aegis, I may have been too subtle before. You write as if you’re writing articles for the Encyclopedia of Ultimate Authority. You’re probably a college student, and college, frankly, is an institution that trains people to sling bullshit with confidence and authority — especially men. It’s pissing everyone off. Stop it. Learn some damned humility.
“Ah, ageis has arrived, our very own kid genius, birthed from the head of zeus with complete and superor knowledge of the world.”
“Aegis, I may have been too subtle before. You write as if you’re writing articles for the Encyclopedia of Ultimate Authority. You’re probably a college student,…”
Okay, remember, I’m nineteen, a college kid, but I know damn well that I’m not a genius, with a PhD in Sociology, Political Science, Psychology, Women’s/Gender Studies/Feminist Theory, History, etc. I’m am far from that. I’m just a Pre-Law, Women’s Studies Minor college kid, and a pro-choice liberal feminist with strong opinions about politics, society, history, global affairs, and women/gender/feminist issues. My knowledge of those issues come from only public school textbooks, the news/media, biographies/autobiographies, and other books here and there. Not nine years of college, so that’s the “extent” of my credibility when talking about these issues. Seriously, if you people saw my SAT and ACT scores you would think that I’m an idiot and would be puzzled as to how I managed to get into a pretty good university. My AP credits and good grades in there and extra curriculars probably helped. The only kind of authority I claim here is moderator/thread authority–that is all. When it comes to intellect, education, life experience, and better grasp and understanding of the world and how it “works”, I leave that up to you folks, who are certainly much older than me–certainly out of college.
That’s why I usually don’t get involved within my own posts, because after I put up what “I think” in the initial post on a certain issue like ‘abortion-rights’ or ‘feminism and society,’ you people get ‘out-of-my-league’ fairly quickly during the discussion that follows. Probably because, like I said, you’re much older, have more life experience, and certainly more education. My posts are really just the gist of an issue where as you folks get more indepth, and bring in other interesting factors that I had no clue even existed or had anything to do with the issue.
So some of us opinionated college kids my age do have humility and exercise it. And that’s all I have to say about that.
Pseudo-Adrienne, I didn’t mean to say that every college student adopts the attitude I’m describing — just that a lot do. And I’m quite serious that college is designed to encourage that sort of arrogance. Balancing humility and confidence in one’s own voice takes maturity, and kudos to you for having that sort of maturity.
“–just that a lot do. And I’m quite serious that college is designed to encourage that sort of arrogance.”
Oh yes, I’ve met quite a few of those who picked up on that attitude. And some of these kids had borderline-failing GPAs or missed class often (too drunk, hung-over, stoned, whatever). I knew that you didn’t mean every college kid was like that, so it’s cool ;-)
A few thoughts on whether or not “enthusiastic participation” should be the standard rather than consent:
(1) Legally, consent should be the standard; even if someone doesn’t really want to have sex, if they agree to do so without coercion, then force is not being used. If someone really wants me to take them to the store, and I want to stay home and watch TV, giving in to them is not the same as being carjacked.
(2) Usually, when talking not about whether sex should be legal but whether or not it is a positive experience, consent is only one prerequisite; others include that it is mutual, safe, etc.
(3) I do not agree that sex always has to be mutually enjoyable. Sometimes one partner may really not desire sex, but agrees to have it because they love the other partner and want to do something nice for them. Presumably, this should go both ways; and if it happens every time the couple has sex (even if which partner is enjoying it alternates), then something is wrong. But I don’t see anything necessarily wrong with someone who is not particularly in the mood agreeing to sex every so often.
“Rape is always an aggressive and/or violent act. In every act of rape, aggression is involved, but it is clear that the sexual acts are the means of expressing the aggressive needs and feelings that operate in the offender. Either anger or power is the dominant component so that rape, rather than being primarily an expression of sexual desire, is in fact the use of sexuality to express his issues of power and anger. Basically, it involves sexual behavior in the primary service of non-sexual needs.”
This was taken from a book by A. Nicholas Groth, Men Who Rape: The Psychology of the Offender., Plenum press, New York. 1981.
———-
The idea that wanton sexual desire, something that most males experience, motivates rape seems ludicrious; and thus any mention of a woman’s appearance or behaviors in relation to sexual assault is extremely offensive.
Male privledge is power, and one asserts their power over another by making them suffer; the reason for rape is as straight forward as that.
Aegis wrote:
I agree… Sort of. I think that not knowing how to treat women might not be the natural order of things, as it seems to me that young boys are specifically taught that “women are different”, “real man takes what he wants” and lot of other sexist crap (just like women, like you said, are taught to be sexually passive, I don’t see it any more different than men being taught to be sexually aggressive… the two notions support each other and I don’t want to have an argument about which one came first. Egg or chicken, I say). These notions are learned from lot of sources: popular culture, older (sexist) men/women that these young people respect, porn, etc. so it would be a good idea to have something to balance out these cultural notions of gender roles, and gradually start affecting culture itself.
Others have pointed out about your tendency to make blanket statements about feminists/feminism so I’ll just say that I, too don’t like that tendency, Aegis. (I’ll grant that you have sometimes made good points, but those blanket statements seem very condescending and arrogant). You pointed out a seminar by a feminist, that might be the reason, but it doesn’t let you off the hook.
cloudy day:
(Sorry for your experience, btw) I suspect that too (of course, they don’t descibe it as a rape), and I’m most suspicious of the loudest braggarts (especially if they speak in terms like “I fucked that slut”). It seems that quite many men find such behaviour repugnant, but not so many are willing to let those braggarts know that.
This need to validate manhood/heterosexuality by fucking women and telling about it does generate a pressure to “get laid” and is a source for great suffering for women, and to men involved too. I can’t see any reason other than this why anyone would publicly talk about such things than the aforementioned validation thing. I’d rather keep sex a private business myself, so it’s not so much about bragging rights, I think.
I can’t see any reason other than this why anyone would publicly talk about such things than the aforementioned validation thing.
clarification:
I can’t see any reason why anyone would publicly talk about such things than the aforementioned validation thing.
That looks better.
Shorter Dave: The strong prey on the weak, this is the natural order of things. Who is this guy, some Shishio Makoto -wannabe?
Legally, consent should be the standard; even if someone doesn’t really want to have sex, if they agree to do so without coercion, then force is not being used.
I don’t think most people were talking about legal standards so much as social ones. It may affect the legal standard somewhat, in the sense that nonresistance wouldn’t be seen as “agreeing to do so without coercion,” but it’s fundamentally different.
I find it hard to believe that sexual desire has nothing to do with rape. That’s like saying that desire for money has nothing to do with robbery. Particularly in cases of date rape, where it seems to me that in many cases the rapist expected to have sex and decided that he wasn’t going to let a little thing like respecting another person’s body and autonomy get in the way.
It seems to me that there are two types of rape: rape where the violence or power is the goal, and the sex is incidental (most stranger rape would seem to fall into this category), and rape where the desire is for sex, and the violence or power is incidental (for example, a guy goes out on a date expecting sex, and then the girl says no and he decides he wants to have sex anyway).
In the first case, where the guy planned specifically to rape, it seems that the sex was a means to an end, as it is unlikely that a concensual sex act would have satisfied the rapist. In the latter case, it seems to me that the goal was sex, and that the rape was used as a means to get it when it was refused.
“I find it hard to believe that sexual desire has nothing to do with rape.”
I don’t think that anyone is saying this; robin ruse certainly didn’t seem to be.
I believe that greed and sexual desire play a part in robbery and rape, respectively. But when it comes to rape, and even robbery, desire, whether its for money or sex, is not the main reasons why someone crosses the line from thought to deed. It may play a part in why they choose that particular crime, but it has little to do with why they would be willing to commit a crime.
Anger, hatred, lack of empathy, opportunity, and a sense of entitlement are what turn desire into criminal acts.
I would add dehumanization to that list. When we view other people as objects that can be used for our satisfaction, rather than as breathing, feeling human beings, it becomes very easy to turn casual desires into unspeakable crimes.
Oh, definitely – that’s part of what I meant by lack of empathy. You’re right, though, “lack of empathy” isn’t nearly strong enough to cover “dehumanising.”
I figured that was what you meant; and of course, you can have lack of empathy for someone who you aren’t dehumanizing (“yeah, it must really be hard for you…but I don’t care”) as well as for someone who you are.
I would add dehumanization to that list. When we view other people as objects that can be used for our satisfaction, rather than as breathing, feeling human beings, it becomes very easy to turn casual desires into unspeakable crimes.
As I said recently on another blog regarding the Kos “important shit” kerfluffle, THIS is why women’s issues ARE part of the “important shit.” It’s objectification, “othering” and dehumanization that leads to rape, torture, and tossing away of human and civil rights. These aren’t all separate, unconnected issues, on different levels of some Importance Hierarchy; they’re all interrelated and part of a bigger whole of a patriarchal/dominance, us/them mindset.
In order to dehumanize someone they first must be ‘human’. I’m afraid some guys (and even some other people) have been socialized to believe that women and girls aren’t ‘human’ per se, but “fascinating creatures” instead. Our not so great culture would have people believe that women and girls are some mysterious and “alien” nymph species or “titilating objects” for guys’ amusement, hence ‘not really’ human. So how can you dehumanize them or have any empathy? That’s the problem; it’s how society and our culture views women, and what’s our species status. How “human” are we, by their definition.
“It’s objectification, “othering”? and dehumanization that leads to rape, torture, and tossing away of human and civil rights.”
Yeah, pretty much. Society needs to humanize and stop objectifying women more often before there can be more empathy or a sense of, “hey you’re a human being with rights, so I shouldn’t violate you.”
Glaivester:
I analyze it a different way. There are certainly anger rapes where the sexual element is more peripheral. These are often (I can’t cite social science research off the top of my head, sorry) contrasted with power rape, where the goal is control and subjugation, but not necessarily physical harm.
I don’t really know what goes on in the minds of men who rape, but I conjecture that in many acquaintance rapes, the rapist views himself as entitled to access to the female body (the concept that Amanda refers to as “pussy oversoul”). The sense of entitlement means that they treat access to a woman’s body for sexual gratification as property that is rightfully theirs, and is wrongfully withheld from their custody.
To model the sense of justification and women’s sexuality as property (I’m hoping this seems pretty foreign to the guys that read this blog), think about your car: some garage is holding it, and you know it was stolen. Maybe they stole it, maybe they found it. But it’s yours, and they should give it to you for free. So you’d get it back any way you could: write a check and stop payment, get the attendant to go inside and drive off …
So, I conjecture, these rapists are entitled and indignant that the property is being withheld from them. They’ll lie, cheat, and sweet-talk, and if that doesn’t work, they’ll use force, but they’re going to get their pussy, damn it.
In that way, I think that sex (as many of us would understand it, as a mutual process of using sexual pleasure for intimacy) really is incidental to the rape. These rapists see themselves as (to borrow from law) using self-help to repossess property. But it’s also true to say that, for them, this may not seem like sex is incidental — because for them, that may be what sex is! It is these guys that think, to paraphrase a commenter on a thread a ways back, “if I get my dick in you, you lose.”
I was away for a day or two, and it’s taking me quite some time to get through this thread, but I’d like to say that it’s turning out to be one of the most informative I’ve seen here so far. Thanks to all those who’ve made thoughtful, honest comments. It really does help to read some of them.
“it’s also true to say that, for them, this may not seem like sex is incidental … because for them, that may be what sex is! It is these guys that think, to paraphrase a commenter on a thread a ways back, ‘if I get my dick in you, you lose.'”?
I’ve felt for a long, long time that this is exactly the model most of us have been given for sex: sex is a game in which a man and a woman compete (yeah, only het sex is “real” sex, apparently). In this game, the man begins with no points and the women begins with all the points she’ll ever have. The object of the game is for the man to take points away from the woman, which he does every time he manages to touch her. The more “private” the part of her he can touch, the more points he gets. Ditto for the type of clothing he can “get her” to remove. If he actually fucks her, or, depending on your regional variation of the game, gets any sort of contact with her cunt, he immediately gets all her points and she loses. Game over: he’s a mega-stud and she’s a pathetic, dirty slut.
Of course, the only way a woman can truly win this game is to not engage in any sort of contact whatever.
How sad a life is that?
I did a post on prostitution and how it enables men to escape the consequences of sexism and reinforce sexism at the same time. If women had a fair chance in the world, sexist men would die out or modify their behavior because they wouldn’t get access to all that they valued in women—their sexual services.
So some guy pops up and obviously intends to paint himself as a sympathetic figure. He’s overweight and feels bad about it. He’s unattractive, has no social skills—but masturbation is not good enough. He wants to find a woman to make himself feel better.
Damn, if that’s not entitlement, I don’t know what is.
If I wanted to feel better about myself, what I’ve been taught by society to do is earn it. He feels entitled to feel better about himself and how does he go about it—he buys it. He doesn’t have to earn it. He doesn’t have to value women. No, it’s all about him. Meanwhile, guys who can’t afford it resent not the guys who set this system up, but women who operate within those rules. They’re whores—but somehow the guys who give women this one power over men are never to blame. Never.
That’s a really astute observation, Crys.
But there’s one situation that’s an exception – women are supposed to sell their points, ultimately for marriage. The woman “wins” if she is able to trade off all her points in exchange for a wedding ring. Every other configuration is a loss. (And we see the man as losing, because he gave up something permanent, i.e. his single status, to get those points.)
Yeah, Myth, the whole “marriage” thing hadn’t occurred to me. Well-spotted.
And you know, there’s that whole thing of how sex within marriage is inevitably “boring”, “routine” and decidely unsexy. That has got to have something to do with all of this, but I can’t put my finger on it just yet.
“…He feels entitled to feel better about himself and how does he go about it…he buys it…”
Yep. This is why I just roll my eyes whenever I hear the line about how prostitution or stripping is “empowering.” Perhaps there are individual women for whom this is true, but most of these are probably upper-middle or upper-class women for whom large amounts of money help blunt the worst effects of being treated like an object. Also, I spent part of my early 30’s trying– and failing, to at least partially support myself through my artwork. One not-so-regular-paying gig I had was through a free arts & culture rag that made most of its money through ads for strip clubs and ads for cigarettes. I didn’t think that this was entirely the magazine’s fault, but it irked me no end that the same men who wouldn’t even think of giving me $25 for a piece of artwork would have stuffed twice that much into my underwear without a second thought if I just got on a table and shook my tits and wiggled my ass. For some strange reason, I didn’t find that thought “empowering.”
Well, what about the cow and the milk thing? When you’ve got the milk and the cow, maybe it’s a little exciting to shoplift?
And no, that’s not me talking, but any number of people on my blog who don’t seem to think it’s offensive to compare a woman to an animal or an inanimate object.
Crys, I think that’s very astute. Your model maps exactly onto the way both the terms “score” and “virtue” are used, and to the property transaction origin of marriage.
(As an aside, the widespread assumption that sex within marriage is boring angers me. I’m really sad that the full benefit of marriage has been denied to too many of my fellow Americans, and I sure don’t think it’s right for everyone, but I like being married. I’ve got one sexual partner who I know like I’ve never known anyone else, and our sex life has been absolutely fantastic — all the more for a long history of practice and communication, like a jam band that’s been playing together for years. The slowing down thing is just so much bullshit, as far as I can tell, and I noticed no such thing until my son was born.)
Just to throw another thought out there that is germaine to this (excellent) thread, one that I’ve been thinking about in light of this and the parallel threads on Pandagon, Feministe, and PFH: Rape prevention advice for women is essentially superstition. I recall Bronislaw Malinowski’s “theory of the gap” from undergraduate anthropology: that areas which are important, but uncertain and beyond control, are the breeding ground for superstition. Therefore, outside-the-reef fishing for trobrianders, hitting for baseball players, rain for farmers. Since rape largely is committed or attempted by acquaintances of the target, and in circumstances too ordinary to avoid entirely, the whole are is given over to quasi-mysical sets of advice which empirically cannot be shown to reduce a woman’s chances of being sexually assaulted, but which are widely acclaimed to be “common sense.”
I ordered a collection of Malinowski essays today — if it says what I remember it saying, I’ll develop the thought at greater length, time permitting.
Just to clarify, Crys, I realize you were not actually making the “marital sex is boring” assertion but holding it at arm’s length.
I don’t think that’s always true; Mary Koss, for example, has done a lot of empirical research on circumstances in which rape is more likely. A lot of what she found was the basis for the advice given readers in the book I Never Called It Rape.
Well if there is actual advice that can be useful, other than learn kung fu and carry a swiss knife and an icy stare, and if there is a way to separate it from blame-the-victim mentality or paranoid mothers’ attempts at controlling their teenage daughters behaviour, I haven’t heard of it.
http://www.toad.net/~arcturus/dd/ddhome.htm
Cluster B:
The Antisocial Personality Disorder (APD)
Essential Feature
…The ICD-10 (International Classification of Diseases) refers to APD as the dissocial personality disorder. It is characterized by a disregard for social obligation and a lack of concern for the feelings of others. There is a pattern of disparity between behavior and social norms. Behavior is not readily modifiable by negative consequences. There is a low tolerance for frustration and a low threshold for discharge of aggression (ICD-10, 1994, p. 226)….
The emotional/interpersonal scale looks at indications of:
“¢ glibness and superficiality
“¢ egocentricity and grandiosity
“¢ lack of remorse or guilt, lack of empathy
“¢ deceitfulness and manipulativeness
“¢ shallow emotions
The social deviance scale looks at indications of:
“¢ impulsivity
“¢ poor behavior controls
“¢ lack of responsibility
“¢ early behavior problems
“¢ adult antisocial behavior (Hare, 1993, pp. 3-4).
——-
I think people who rape have at least the Antisocial Personality Disorder.
They may also have the Borderline Personality Disorder and/or the Narcissistic Personality Disorder, others.
“Individuals with APD believe that they are special and deserve dispensations and immediate effortless gratification…The fondest APD image of self reflects unrealistic notions of superiority….They will victimize others by manipulating observed weaknesses and will, in turn, feign being a victim to absolve themselves from blame…”
“…up to 80% of men and 65% of women in American prisons meet the criteria for APD … Many individuals with APD work as bartenders, waiters, entertainers, or carnival workers. They are also found in medicine, law, politics, and the clergy; many become psychotherapists… adds that individuals with APD can function reasonably well as academics, mercenaries, police officers, cult leaders, military personnel, businesspeople, writers, artists, and entertainers…”
Peer pressure against date rapists (as well as the concept that “powerful” people have some “right” to take advantage of/rape/steal from/murder/go to war against… less powerful people) – taking the view of perpetrators as disordered and in need of help/therapy/jail instead of as someone with a lot of points (even if that is the message put out there by whomever) – whether it be friends in frat houses, colleagues at work or people on an internet board – is something that real people can do in their life.
“Be the change….”
(Thanks for the thread).
Comforting as it may be to think that all rapists are mentally ill, I don’t think superficial comparisons to DSM-IV is evidence of that.
This is why I just roll my eyes whenever I hear the line about how prostitution or stripping is “empowering.”?
I’ve never heard this from a prostitute or stripper.
No advice will “stop rape,” but Gavin de Becker’s book The Gift of Fear is about the best you can get (as it is sequel, Protecting the Gift). Lots of useful and intelligent information about society’s pressure on women to be ‘nice’ and make themselves victims, all without any victim-blaming.
Comforting as it may be to think that all rapists are mentally ill, I don’t think superficial comparisons to DSM-IV is evidence of that.
Right. I think what I’ve been trying to say is that there’s a continuum of male sexual behaviors, from what’s considered “normal” male sexual dominance, to the extremely violent forms of rape — and the reason that many men deny the significance of rape is that they don’t want to believe that there’s anything ploblematic with “normal” male sexual dominance.
I think that date rapists can be considered mentally ill.
They may never get any treatment.
Just like George W. Bush and John Bolton who have public jobs – and who probably have an antisocial personality disorder as well.
Just like… many bartenders, waiters, entertainers, or carnival workers, doctors, lawyers, politicians, clergymen, psychotherapists, academics, mercenaries, police officers, cult leaders, military personnel, businesspeople, writers, artists, and entertainers… and other people who are given a free rein and even blessings in some cases…”?
mythago wrote:
“I’ve never heard this from a prostitute or stripper.”
Lucky you. I sure have. Such women –or men who say they are women;It’s the ‘net, so who can be sure ?– have popped up at least a few times on virtually every feminist board I’ve ever been on.
Even if you want to get technical about wording, are you really denying that some women in the “sex industry” do like to declare that they have power over men, or power that other women don’t ? Certainly the “big names” in porn have the notion of power as part of their official story, so to speak. What they think privately could very well be something else. Most people don’t speak freely about the drawbacks of their occupation when they’re trying to get a potential spender to open up his or her wallet. They are also unlikely to speak of those drawbacks when they’re seeking justification in front of others, possibly to fight their own feelings of unease or unhappiness.
Thomas: Yeah, I got you. :) Actually, I’m married too, and that whole myth annoys me as well!
Also, re cloudy day’s post, I also don’t like the idea of trying to classify rapists as “mentally ill”. Especially as it will undoubtedly let more rapists than ever off the hook. Also, if it applies to date rapists, then there is a mental health epidemic of terrifying proportions out there.
In fact, the more I think about it, the more this whole thing of trying to pathologise behaviours such as date rape seems wrong to me. Mainly because I think most of us are aware of all the messages that abound in our society that are actually pro-rape, including date rape. You can’t have a culture that actively encourages certain types of behaviours, then turn round and claim that these behaviours are in fact pathological.
If I can backtrack for a second, I’d like to revisit the idea of what men do when confronted by male behaviour that they find repugnant. A really interesting question is how men who hear other men talking about sexual situations that sound like they might be rape handle that situation. Also, how they react to situations that look like they might turn into “date rape” (eg the really drunk girl at a frat party who’s being led upstairs by a guy who you already think is a bit sketchy). My impression (from personal experience) is that men who actually have empathy for women usually respond by jut avoiding these guys, ie they communicate their distaste at innapropriate behaviour from other men by not hanging out with those men. Which I can understand – who likes being around unpleasant people? However, if you just avoid someone whose beahaviour you don’t approve of without telling them WHY you’re avoiding them, they don’t know that it’s the behaviour that caused you to stop wanting to be around them. If you see a situation that looks like it might lead to rape and don’t intervene because you don’t want the other guys to think less of you, are you not in some sense complicit in what happens?
I’ve seen far too many situations in which men who I know wouldn’t rape or take advantage of women themselves don’t actually condemn other men’s bad behaviour, don’t even say anything about it, they just avoid the offending (and offensive) individual. I think that one thing that men could do to fight against the rape culture is to be more open about criticising sexist behaviour and language, challenging other men on their sexual braggadocio (sp?), and actually intervening in sketchy situations. The subset of men who engage in these behaviours are clearly not interested in anything that women have to say about rape or sexual bahaviour in general, but they might be susceptible to peer pressure from other men.
A very few times, I’ve helped chase off party crashers who arrived drunk and were talking about looking for sex. I try to object to sexual harassment when I can. Most of the rape incidents I’ve ever heard described were described by women, and long after the event had happened.
I do avoid the more obviously dangerous men and situations, for the simple reason that they’re dangerous to me as well. When I object to sexist behavior by other men in social contexts, they usually become VERY angry. If I’m isolated, they’ll threaten violence.
I tend to agree (if I’m reading you correctly). The illness, while at times individual, is much more an indication of being societal in scale. We as a society are ‘ill’, or at least our cultural constructs are, and these diseased parts are perpetuating and in some ways even encouraging the types of behavior that blossom under such ugly priviledges.
Either we fix the notions of acceptible behavior and respect for others bodily integrity, or we’ll be stuck in a punitive and rehabilitative loop that never ends.
Kim: that’s exactly what I was trying to get at, that it’s the culture that’s unhealthy and pathological. Though again, I don’t want to take this notion to the point where rapists are let off the hook for “just doing what they’re taught”.
BritGirl, I think it’s right that men have to be willing to challenge rather than ignore the sexism that other men give voice to. Sometimes it’s possible to work with guys where they are, using humor or whatever. Other times, they will just reject the message — but I’m not sure that’s a loss for our side. If some guy thinks I’m an asshole for saying that jokes that treat women like property are not funny, well, I probably think he’s an asshole anyway. I probably can’t get him to listen to me or take me seriously, but I can show him that there are men who won’t put up with his shit, and that he can’t always tell who they are.
Quick story: five affluent white men, politics ranging from center-right to progressive, eating lunch in a conference room. One told a nasty joke where domestic violence was the punchline. The rousing conversation fell dead silent, and we could hear the copy machine running across the office. He apologized.
I forgot to say, I’m fortunate to have some friends who will object to sexist behavior, because it makes a huge difference if you object, and someone backs you up.
Brian, there are for all of us situations where we’ve decided that discretion is the better part of valor.
Brian
I would add that it would be VERY helpful if men would back up women when we try to intervene in troubling situations and/or object to language that’s excusing/justifying abusive behavior. I’ve found myself in situations where I’m trying to extract a woman from a dangerous situation and find myself facing down a man who’s angry because I’m stealing his toy, and there have been men around who I know are more likely to agree with me than the asshole, but they just sort of dissapear. And that situation’s just as dangerous for me as it would be for a man, if not more so. It’s just that to me standing by and just watching something bad happen isn’t an acceptable option. I can’t help thinking, what if it was me that needed help?
I’m just getting a little tired of finding myself facing down angry me twice my size while all the guys who I know probably agree with me develop a sudden interest in staring at their shoes.
I should clarify that and say “who’s angry because IN HIS PERCEPTION” I’m stealing his toy” for the sake of the sarcasm-impaired.
Damn. I was talking about backing down when I was completely isolated. Backing down when someone else is threatened — that’s abject cowardice.
Looks even worse when it’s a bunch of big guys doing the shoe-staring and I’m 5ft2.
In my experience, BritGirl, I generally just don’t get enough acquainted with those kinds of men in the first place. The last time I was really confronted with that kind of behavior was in high school. I’ll admit, I wasn’t always outspoken about it but the older I got the more likely it was that I would speak up and express my disapproval. Sadly, it didn’t always matter.
Still, in the last 10 years I cannot think of an occassion when I was confronted with any questionable behavior. I’d like to think I would express myself, but I’d confess that until I’ve had it happen I cannot say for certain. I hope considering the issue and here will make it more likely that I would speak out because that is certainly how I would hope to respond.
BStu – I see what you’re saying, we all tend to select friends who reflect our own values. In all the situations I’m talking about the reason I was there was because some of the guys were co-workers.
I am uncomfortable with using DSMIII to define rapists as having one disorder, or another as well. Yes, you can have anti-socials, narcissists, etc. who rape women, but what then do you say about a large number of men who do commit rape, are they all mentally ill?
I think it’s more of a learned behavior that comes part and parcel with male entitlement that comes part and parcel of being born male in a society which favors males and upholds the superiority of males. What about rape being used as a tool or a weapon(depending on your POV) against a class of women to dilute their ethnicity and/or control and demean them? What about rape as a war crime?
And what of a society that allows or even condones raping women, and at the same time makes it toughest on the female victim, and treats them badly when they try to report it?
Another thought about defining rapists as mentally ill. If we do define them this way, doesn’t that open the door to some enterprising defense lawyer to argue that if they are mentally ill they can’t be held responsible for their own actions? I’m concerned that someone might try to use the insanity defense in those circumstances and say “he shouldn’t go to jail, what he needs is counselling”.
BritGirl, yours and RadFem’s comments brought up the criminal justice system (which is a subtext to lots of other comments, as well). I have a few thoughts.
First, as much as I respect the urge to properly punish rape, if the penalties are too stiff it can drive convictions down and push judges to put their thumb on the defense’s side (which doesn’t happen, IME, in really any other kind of criminal case).
Second, I’ve come the the reluctant conclusion that, as a matter of psychology, the swiftness and certainty of punishment means much, much more than its severity. I don’t like this, because careful adjudication takes time (it can take decades to clear innocent people after wrongful convictions because witnesses need time to get out from under whatever forces pushed them to lie, etc.)
Finally, I think most rapists have a real internal defense against seeing what they do as rape, and as a consequence, will not process the possibility that they will be tried and convicted.
Because of the above, I think that most potential rapists will more easily process the more easily forseeable consequences, and the ones that we civilians have more control over: that they’ll be ostracized, that they’ll have trouble getting laid in the future, etc. Of course, meaningful consequences are only possible in communities where there is a
Not that I’m minimizing the importance of prosecution, which cannot be replaced.
Sorry, I posted with an unfinished sentence: I meant to say “communities where there is a critical mass of people who will not condone rape.”
Plus, except extreme cases, most genuinely mentally ill people in need of help and therapy are really not a threat to others. More likely a threat to themselves.
Sick fucks don’t need to be clinically ill to be sick fucks. Behaviour can be antisocial and perverted without it being influenced by any mental illness or insanity. Otherwise, both individual responsibility and social influences go right out the window and we should only have mental institutions in place of prisons.
Just like… many bartenders, waiters, entertainers, or carnival workers, doctors, lawyers, politicians, clergymen, psychotherapists, academics, mercenaries, police officers, cult leaders, military personnel, businesspeople, writers, artists, and entertainers… and other people who are given a free rein and even blessings in some cases…
lol… yeah sure let’s lock them all up just in case, especially the psychotherapists !
Brit, I hear you.
Brian, unfortunately it’s been my experience that women who face up to sexist men can expect other men to either cut out of the room or back up the sexist man’s offense that a woman dare criticize him.
On antisocial personality types.
I was recently a victim of relative who stole some money from me.
So I got to looking at Personality Disorders and noticed how neatly she and a couple of others I knew fit the description. Of course it stands to reason – even if it didn’t have a label that there are certain personality characteristics that would lend themselves to a person committing a crime against another. And if they didn’t have them before the crime – might develop them later.
Like disregarding others feelings. Like being egocentric. Being deceitful, manipulative, lacking remorse and empathy, acting glib and superficial. Having high scores on impulsivity, poor behavior controls and lacking a sense of reponsibility.
You could take 10 rapists and expect that they would share those characteristics.
If there is a certain personality type that does this – it is useful to know what type to look for.
I agree that it is a problem when it seems that a fourth (or more) of the population seems to think this type of behavior is normal. Also – when people in the media who express this sort of behavior patterns are promoted – sell lots of records – make lots of money with jokes and that sort of thing. That is a problem.
I think many people are taught that this sort of behavior is acceptable. I think the people who believe it are adopting maladaptive personalities for themselves.
Pitcairn Island comes to mind in these discussions. The leaders were able to get away with rape – legalizing it for all intents and purposes. If an outside entity had not been able to step in and take the perpetrators to court they would be doing it still. It was “normal” for them. But it was clearly abnormal to me.
Notice that 80% of the prison population is thought to have antisocial personality disorder. Having a disorder like that does not make the behavior Ok. It’s not like a mental illness where the person doesn’t know what reality is. They are undermining the reality of others. The classification is useful for thinking about how to deal with these people and their manipulations. IMO.
Amanda, I don’t doubt that, unfortunately. I almost never get any backup from anyone, man or woman, when I try to criticize someone for making a sexist comment, unless I’m with someone who’s a hardnosed activist on the issue. Come to think of it, I can’t remember ever seeing anyone who wasn’t hardnosed about opposing sexism ever criticize a man for making a sexist comment. And to be honest, I have a hard time doing it myself.
BritGirl, would you describe more about the incidents you’re thinking of? Like BStu, I’d have thought I’ve never seen someone actually maneuvering to sexually assault a woman, but I’m worried that I have been present in such a situation and didn’t recognize it for what it was.
Even if you want to get technical about wording, are you really denying that some women in the “sex industry”? do like to declare that they have power over men, or power that other women don’t ?
Well, gosh, I wouldn’t know *anything* about the sex industry.
They are also unlikely to speak of those drawbacks when they’re seeking justification in front of others, possibly to fight their own feelings of unease or unhappiness.
Or they may emphasize those drawbacks to persuade everyone that they’re victims deserving of support and pity. I guess as long as we’re going to assume any prostitute or stripper we disagree with is a lying sack of shit, we can do that both ways, can’t we?
Brian
The incidents I’m thinking of usually involve a potential victim so drunk as to be clearly incapable of defending herself or indeed of making any kind of decision. One incident I’m thinking of involved a VERY young girl who was completely wasted and being ignored by everyone (in a large party including several groups of people, where not everyone knew each other) because she was too drunk to manage a conversation. She then got up on a table and started to dance, although she nearly fell off the table several times. A guy sitting next to me announced to the table “she looks like she’s up for it, maybe I should take her home and give it to her” or something to that effect. I pointed out that she was too drunk to know what she was doing (and about 10-15 years younger than him), and he said something like “I’m a nice guy, I’d wait till morning” and nudged his buddy, exchanged leering winks etc. Somehow I didn’t get the feeling that there would be any waiting till morning actually happening. I asked why he couldn’t just get her number and wait till she was sober, and he made some comment about how grateful she would be if he took her home and didn’t do anything immediately, and how she’d feel obligated to him for being such a “nice guy”. I eventually managed to find one of her friends and persuade the friend to get her out of there before anything happened, at which point the guy got mad at me for spoiling his fun, and challenged me about why it was any of my business. Most of the other guys just sat there, but a few of them muttered nasty comments like “killjoy” and “bitch” at me. At one point the guy was displaying very aggressive body language to me, which isn’t hard as he’s big and I’m little.
(I posted something about this on Pandagon so forgive me if you’re reading this for a second time)
The reason I’m using this example is because I think most guys read this kind of situation as a girl “getting herself” into trouble, whereas a lot of women (including the other women there who I talked to later) see this as a situation where if the girl leaves with the guy she’s very likely to be raped. In fact, she’ll often wake up the next day and barely even remember how she got there. This sitation also often features guys deliberately getting a girl more drunk (eg replenishing her drink or adding extra booze when she’s not looking). I know several people who something similar has happened to.
The other situation I’ve seen several times is drunk girls being led off towards bedrooms at parties by one guy, while a couple of other guys look on and start to follow. Again, to a woman it’s perfectly obvious that a rape is being planned, though the guys probably don’t think of what they’re planning to do as rape.
FYI, this is one of the reasons women often go out in groups (or at least it was when I was in high school and college). We watch out for each other (which I suspect is part of why a lot of frat boys I’ve met hate women going out in groups and usually try to separate them from each other).
“Well, gosh, I wouldn’t know *anything* about the sex industry.”
You’re really hell-bent on putting words in my mouth this evening, mythago. That’s not what I said. I spoke about a few women who showed up on some boards that I frequent, or have frequented, to talk about how great stripping or being a dom was, etc. That’s all. Stop projecting on me, all right ? I don’t need it.
“Or they may emphasize those drawbacks to persuade everyone that they’re victims deserving of support and pity. I guess as long as we’re going to assume any prostitute or stripper we disagree with is a lying sack of shit, we can do that both ways, can’t we? ”
Look, if you are going to continue on this tack, let’s just fucking drop it, all right ? As far as I’m concerned, just about anyone who wants to protect their bread and butter is going to avoid discussing the aspects of it that bother them in front of someone whom they think is going to try and take it away. That’s human nature under modern capitalism, not a declaration that there’s something particular about prostitutes and strippers that makes them more inclined to lie than– say, a fast food worker or a paralegal.
Until a few days ago, I was a civil servant. The job had its plusses and it had its minuses, but I would never discuss the minuses with customers while on the job. And I would never go to a job-oriented board that I knew was frequented by Right-wingers and Libertarians to talk about the minuses. Experience has taught me to know better than that.
Sounds good!
First, I didn’t mean it to come across as if I was blaming all feminists for the kind of approach that speaker took. Second, I don’t think the problem is that feminists are unsympathetic or unwilling to communicate with young men. The date rape speaker was definitely sympathetic and willing, she was simply communicating things in the wrong way (specifically by going overboard). I think the problem is both that (some) young men aren’t listening (or listen but don’t change), and that the messages feminists give to young men are sometimes unhelpful or damaging. This does not necessarily imply that either feminists or young men are at fault, but rather that they haven’t yet learned to communicate meaningfully with each other.
Hmmm, it didn’t really like they were willing to listen to me either, so I think we ended up with mutual non-communication…
It’s interesting that you got the impression that I saw gender roles as essential and unchangeable… I believe that gender roles are damaging, and the goal of dismantling them is something I share with feminists. Perhaps some small degree of gender roles would be OK, but I think that argument needs more support (note: I am expressing skepticism towards an anti-feminist position here). Gender roles are very complex, and phasing them out is a complex project that defies glib solutions.
There are at least a couple problems to avoid in dismantling gender roles.
The first is that any over-zealous attempt to dismantle them may backfire. For instance, it is a mistake to assume that just because “X attribute of the male gender role” is problematic, that the solution is for males to show the exact opposite of that characteristic. Specifically, if male dominance is bad, then it would be a mistake to assume that males should be submissive instead. Also, some normally good ideas can be taken too far. It’s a problem if a man is taught to “respect women” so much that he respects women more than the respects himself. Or if he becomes so “sensitive” that he is unable to stand up for himself at all. Males who make (or are encouraged to make) these false assumptions will often become insecure and spineless, though they will see themselves as “nice guys” who aren’t appreciated by women. But these guys will think, “well, I am sensitive and I respect women, and women are supposed to go for that stuff, but they aren’t going for me so there must be something with them.”
The other issue is that when phasing out gender roles and sexist expectations, both sexes must do so at a similar rate. Encouraging members of one sex to drop sexist expectations towards the other sex may not work if the other sex hasn’t changed enough, because there won’t be enough members of the opposite sex who have abandoned their gender roles to go around. Expecting members of one sex to drop 100% of their gender roles is probably not going to work very well if the opposite sex doesn’t change as fast and maintains sexist expectations. Because of those expectations, members of the more enlightened sex might actually regress and return to aspects of their old roles, because they are will to make that sacrifice for sex, love, or companionship from the opposite sex. Hence, in response to the suggestion of dropping gender roles, I think it’s perfectly reasonable for people of both sexes to ask, “wait a sec, if I do this, will I be ruining my chances with most of the opposite sex? If so, are there enough members of the opposite sex without such sexist expectations that I will be able to find someone?” The solution seems to be that gender roles and sexist expectations be phased out gradually at the same rate for both sexes.
An example of this problem that feminists may be able to relate to is in the area of beauty and objectification. Some females may believe that pursuing certain beauty standards damages their health and self-esteem. They may want to stop trying to live up to those standards, but they may feel that if they did so to a certain degree, that males would cease to be attracted to them. Hence, they continue objectifying themselves, and the system is perpetuated.
I think there is a similar issue with males initiating, and to a lesser degree, with males being dominant. Some males may believe that doing all the initiating, or engaging in certain dominant behaviors (e.g. teasing women in a patronizing way) are damaging both for themselves and for the women involved. These males might prefer to share the burden of initiating, and would be happy to be more empathetic towards women. Yet they may believe that doing so would mean ruining their chances with women. Other males might not even think about these issues, because they have no incentive to change their behavior (because they have no trouble attracting women).
Is there any substance to the suspicions these males have about female expectations (or for that matter, is there any substance to female suspicions about the beauty standards of males)? I suspect that in both cases, yes, there is some basis to worry. I do think that in some cases, members of both sexes either underestimate or overestimate the extent to which members of the opposite sex hold certain sexist standards.
Yet I think that people who question to what degree it is practical to abandon their gender roles, in terms of whether they will be ruining their chances with the opposite sex, are asking very relevant questions that do not have simple answers. Individuals needs to grapple with the questions of how far they want to go in abandoning their gender roles, what kind of toll it will take on their success with the opposite sex (if they are heterosexual), and even what “success” with the opposite sex means. Hence, moralistic solutions like “don’t ever change yourself to fit sexist expectations; simply find members of the opposite sex who don’t have those expectations,” even though they sound good in theory, may not work so well in practice because there might not be enough members of the opposite sex with completely non-sexist expectations to go around (or the person may believe that even if it isn’t true).
Oh, I know you think I’m ignorant and egotistic. I find plenty of the people here ignorant and egotistic, you included, so I guess we are even :) It doesn’t surprise me at all that people sharing massively different assumptions and viewpoints are going to perceive each other as ignorant and egotistic. Though I try to avoid declaring my subjective judgments of other people’s characters as the “reality and truth.” My point was that calling me those things is pointless towards actually getting me to change my behavior.
Clearly, I have a very different notion of what is offensive or obnoxious and what is not than most of the people here. For instance, I think a claim like “women have more sexual power than men” may be wrong, but I see no reason to find it offensive like some posters did. Since I have a very different viewpoint than many here, I can’t always predict what they are going to find offensive, or ignorant, or egotistical. I am willing to accommodate to other people’s standards of what is offensive, but how can I do that when I don’t know what those standards are until after I’ve run afoul of them and have 5+ people flaming me? That is why I suggested that if you think I am being ignorant or egotistical, that you do me the courtesy of telling me what kind of statement you find problematic and why, because I can’t read your mind. I extend this invitation towards all posters here who have similar issues with me.
You are correct in sensing that I sometimes believe I know better than other people and display condescension towards them. That is because, in previous threads, I have felt that people were consistently distorting or purposefully miscontruing my position. Maybe they were, maybe they weren’t, or maybe it was partly my fault for being unclear or making things more complicated than they needed to be. The point is that when I perceive that someone is doing that, I have trouble respecting them intellectually, and perhaps this shows in the way I respond to them even though I try my hardest to be patient. Also, maybe it’s just my “male definition of civility,” but I have trouble having respect for people who consistently employ nasty personal attacks, because I see this as an inability to for them to recognize common humanity and that other points of view besides theirs may exist. I am not necessarily claiming that I am correct in holding any of those perceptions, but I hope they will help people understand the attitudes I display here.
Hence, I have a couple questions for you:
What, in your mind, would be an appropriate way for me to disagree with people here?
What, in your mind, would be an appropriate way to respond when I feel like someone is mischaracterizing my position?
First, thanks for acknowledging that I have shifted in my arguments…
Second, you are probably right about my writing style, but you are wrong about it being due to college. Brian, I’ve been hearing “Aegis, stop being such a know-it-all” since probably 4th grade. Funny thing is, I’m not trying to be a know-it-all, although I can sometimes see why people think I am… it’s just the way I think. What can I say… “um, sorry if my thought processes don’t appeal to you”?? From my point of view, I have actually been working hard to be very restrained here; I feel like I have already been bending over backwards.
I prefer arguments that are supported by evidence, and I often participate in forums where you get slammed if you don’t have evidence backing up your claims (like ifeminists), so that is why I use evidence in my arguments. If P-A or others would prefer, I could avoid citing external evidence unless someone specifically requested it…
Aegis, you’re superior with you dick-think logic/rationality/evidence crap. Now that you’ve gotten the affirmation you need, lay off.
“The first is that any over-zealous attempt to dismantle them may backfire. For instance, it is a mistake to assume that just because “X attribute of the male gender role”? is problematic, that the solution is for males to show the exact opposite of that characteristic. Specifically, if male dominance is bad, then it would be a mistake to assume that males should be submissive instead. Also, some normally good ideas can be taken too far. It’s a problem if a man is taught to “respect women”? so much that he respects women more than the respects himself. Or if he becomes so “sensitive”? that he is unable to stand up for himself at all. Males who make (or are encouraged to make) these false assumptions will often become insecure and spineless, though they will see themselves as “nice guys”? who aren’t appreciated by women. But these guys will think, “well, I am sensitive and I respect women, and women are supposed to go for that stuff, but they aren’t going for me so there must be something with them.”?”
In other words ladies…. Zealous feminist = Castrating Bitch ™
Or, in other words: women can achieve equality once they figure out how to make it palatable to the male ego. That is, the male is still the standard for the status quo; to consider anything else is, well, castrating.
Brian, your post #343 wins the MacKinnon/Dworkin “In a Nutshell” award!
What, in your mind, would be an appropriate way for me to disagree with people here? (Aegis)
More succinctly. Without repetition. With properly quoted references and links.
Oh, and try to do something about that turgid prose.
The Aegis fluff that Q Grrl quotes in comment #374 makes me think of nothing except “Uncorrected Personality Traits” by Robin Hitchcock. I’ll be singing that for the rest of the day, and laughing.
“it is a mistake to assume that just because “X attribute of the male gender role”? is problematic, that the solution is for males to show the exact opposite of that characteristic”
Yeah, because everyone engaged in this discussion is so damned stupid that we all automatically assume that the world works in such simple dichotomies. Glad you stopped by to point out the screamingly obvious. I’d never have noticed otherwise.
Has it ever crossed your mind, Aegis, that what many of us want to do is a radical dismantling of the status quo? That it’s often not a matter of shifting, say, Behaviour X a bit further along the continuum to make it more acceptable, but a matter of throwing X out and starting from scratch?
“It’s a problem if a man is taught to “respect women”? so much that he respects women more than the respects himself”
Sez you. I for one would like to see that one, if only for a day. Just to see what it’d be like. And, y’know, in the end, I’m far more worried about the current reality of huge numbers of women who respect men far more than they respect themselves.
“The other issue is that when phasing out gender roles and sexist expectations, both sexes must do so at a similar rate.”
Again, sez who? Not that I would be opposed to such a programme, mind, if it could be made at all workable, but this seems to me to be an assertion made with no proof or even much serious thought to back it up. How do you *know* it wouldn’t work?
“Encouraging members of one sex to drop sexist expectations towards the other sex may not work if the other sex hasn’t changed enough, because there won’t be enough members of the opposite sex who have abandoned their gender roles to go around.”
This is making so many erroneous assumptions, I really don’t know where to start. So all I will say is that what you are doing here is failing to recognise that other people do not necessarily think and react the same way as you do. I for one decided a long time ago that when it came to men, I would rather starve than eat dog food. Capisce? So if there were no suitably evolved male for me to hook up with, I could (and at times indeed have) existed QUITE HAPPILY all on my own.
Another clue: not everyone is so obsessed with finding someone of the “opposite” sex, either.
“The solution seems to be that gender roles and sexist expectations be phased out gradually at the same rate for both sexes.”
God, this is so arrogant and bloated with the importance of its own entitlement it could only come from the member of a socially dominant class. Listen up: NO!! How fucking DARE you tell me that I just have to wait my turn to be considered human because, well, that’s just easier for YOU to deal with? How could such monstrous self-importance even exist?
Calm down little lady!!! Your tone is getting you nowhere fast!
You’re getting your knickers in a wad over rape when you really should be looking at your unrealistic expectations of the male gender!
cloudy day:
I must point out that in Finland, all sexual offenders (rapists, pedophiles…) receive compulsory mental treatment and therapy in prison (if they aren’t so mentally ill that they end up in psychiatric institutions, not prisons), yet the changes for these criminals to be repeat offenders is higher than the average for other(serious) criminals. The article was on Helsingin Sanomat, the leading newspaper here, few years back.
Clearly, either the treatment isn’t working because it isn’t professional enough or the whole approach: Rapist=sick, is flawed. I would rather consider rape a crime of entitlement, hate or sadism or all of the above.
Damn, Q, you’re right: how could I *possibly* have been concerning myself with issues as trivial as rape, murder, mutilation, beating, psychological terrorism, and women’s (apparently utterly worthless) sense of their own humanity when the REAL problem the world is facing is the confusion felt by adolescent boys who, like, RILLY wanna get their rocks off but are frustrated by those confusing signals “girls” give off?
I mean, after all, that’s just soooooooo much more important.
I’m so ashamed.
Crys:
“I for one decided a long time ago that when it came to men, I would rather starve than eat dog food.”
:D Though I’m sure Q would let us come live in her commune if things didn’t work out at home. I can make killer cinnamon bread, and I love yardwork !!
I’m not so good on the yardwork, but I do love to cook!
Do you like olives? If so, I’ll trade you one of my killer olive roulades for some cinnamon bread (yuuummmmmmmm!)
Aegis, you’re off on quite a broad tangent. Far above, you gave an example of a seminar that you disliked, and now you’re discussing gender roles and male initiation in sex. Between there and here, I looked to see if I could find some direct treatment of the subject of rape.
Much earlier, you wrote:
That’s the best I could find. The way I read this, you’re saying that rape is a problem that arises from men’s confusion about how to seek sex (though you explicitly disclaim that the failure is merely accidental). Now, frankly, that confuses me. If rape is no accident, then it seems odd to say that it results merely from lack of good training in communication. If, on the other hand, you’re saying that rape happens because men are pressured to initiate sex but don’t know how, then in what way are you not saying it is accidental?
If I’m going to understand what you’re talking about, you’re going to have to explain, on your account, how it is that acquaintance rapes happen.
Yo Alsis!
There is a VERY very very very very good chance that I might be moving to your neck of the woods in about a year….
:)
at which time, the commune will commence.
Say, Alsis, did you get my email?
“The solution seems to be that gender roles and sexist expectations be phased out gradually at the same rate for both sexes.”?
Aegis, are you seriously suggesting that women don’t deserve to be free of rape until you get girls to flirt with you more often? Even think that maybe, just maybe, there are lots and lots of forward, aggressive, flirty women (like me) and they just don’t like you?
“Aegis, you’re superior with you dick-think logic/rationality/evidence crap. Now that you’ve gotten the affirmation you need, lay off. ”
Amanda pretty much sums up your behavior right there, Aegis. Quit acting like this and quit going about your arguments in this manner. Try a different way of posting your arguments–perhaps a way that doesn’t scream the “arrogance of some guy who thinks he knows everything and he’s just a kid with little or no life experience or enough education in these kinds of situations and subjects, to make such claims about them (like you do).” You’re being “flamed” because you deserve it.
“Aegis, are you seriously suggesting that women don’t deserve to be free of rape until you get girls to flirt with you more often?”
Male entitlement, maybe? “If ‘it‘ has a vagina, it had better flirt with me or else I’ll get real shitty, and make several sexist assumptions about the female sex, and deny the existence of the Rape Culture. Because hey, my privileges make it easy for me to do.”
“Even think that maybe, just maybe, there are lots and lots of forward, aggressive, flirty women (like me) and they just don’t like you?”
Oh Amanda! That’s because you’re just probably some flaming feminist Lesbian with man-hating issues ;-) Just give into guys and you’ll change for the better! ::rolls eyes:: How many times have I been told that? (goes off to count)
I’ve been glued to this thread all day; and the discussion’s gone everywhere. One place it touched on was ‘what counts as rape?’ And I think this needs to be addressed more in educational type contexts; because well, a lot of people just don’t know.
We don’t need an extreme ticking-time bomb scenario. I’ll paint the scene… Good Catholic boy and Christian girl; at a conservative Christian university; been dating for a long time. Both are virgins.
They decide to have sex! They are 19 and 20 and neither is feeling pressured. This involves much furtive sneaking around and planning; they get naked and begin to have sex in his dorm room.
Here’s is how the story continues from her point of view: “Things were fine until he entered me. It hurt sooo much. I wanted him to stop, but it hurt a lot so all I managed was a tiny ‘ouch’. I don’t know if he heard, but he didn’t stop until he finished. Then we both put our clothes back on; we never discussed it again.”
I never heard his side, but I imagine it goes something like this: “We decided to have sex, and we were both really nervous. She didn’t seem to be too into it, and I was already pretty embarassed here, so I just mechanically finished quickly and I was ashamed so we both left quickly.”
Was there a rape here? What do you think?
I don’t know, honestly. She never mentioned a thing until 18 months later so there was no chance to confront him; they had broken up, he had graduated; she was not inclined to pursue anything but felt she had been raped. I’m inclined to believe her; but I don’t know what would be appropriate for a punishment for the guy?
But I do believe that when men say ‘I would never rape’, they’re imagining themselves as having to be a jackass in an alley stalking a woman, or a dickhead at a bar plying a woman with alcohol, or a fucking jackass dickhead with some roofies and a wingman. Where is the line?
The only thing that’s clear is that we need a way to talk about these things; to prepare people for what a ‘yes’ looks like and what to do if a ‘yes’ changes to a ‘no’; how to communicate it — how it should stop. What to do next.
Qgrrl, wow. If you want me to forward you some local papers so you can look into rents and such, let me know. 8) (sigh) But I STILL wanna’ go to Spain and collect on that roulade thing ! Crys, you wicked temptress !! :D
Brian, yeah. Just busy with job-hunting and such. I’ll try and reply next week.
Oh, and getting back on track, what Amanda said. This whole Aegis dom/sub “choice” with no middle ground allowed is seriously making my head ache. Heaven help the couple, gay or straight, that just wants to alternately give OR receive, depending on their moods that particular day. :/ The hypermasculine/hyperfeminine “ideal” never was my cup of borscht.
Cala, that’s an extreme case. I can’t say that it’s rape unless he really didn’t know, but it does demonstrate that the discouragement of open communication about sex is a huge factor in the high rate of sexual assault in this country.
Cala, for what my opinion is worth, I’d say that the question is, did the man continue intercourse knowing that the woman wanted him to stop? It sounded as if the woman wasn’t sure whether the man had heard her cry out. Where things get blurry for me is the question of whether it would have been rape if he heard her cry out, but didn’t realize it meant he should stop. And, in that case, what would prosecuting the man and sending him to prison accomplish, if he acted out of ignorance, not malice?
Amanda, what worries me is that the case described is probably very typical of first sexual experiences, rather than an extreme case. Most women who’ve described their first sexual experiences to me described them as confusing and painful, and not very different from this story.
I rarely see anything aimed at young people describing how intercourse tends to work, and what it’s like for women, and how difficult it can be for women who are virgins. It seems to me that any education on that topic comes years too late, in the form of dealing with the trauma after the fact, when the education comes at all.
In response to the “what counts as rape” scenerio…
I am more concerned personally with men who are not interested in relationships – the gamey ones who look for situations and manipulate situations to victimize women. They may know the women casually or be in a social setting at the same time or a multitude of scenerios.
Instead of thinking that everyone is a rapist (which I think waters down the problem considerably) – I think there are certain people (and yes – I prefer to think of them as disordered whether the culture supports their actions or not) who see themselves as empowered by dis-empowering others.
It has been sad to read and think about the situations where men are afraid to intervene or feel threatened by the perpetrators who feel entitled….
I almost wonder if the perpetrators think there is some kind of screwed up “equality”. That since women are “liberated”that men are liberated to act like animals and disregard the humanity of women. As if since the boundaries are looser for women… they can do whatever they want if the opportunity presents itself (or they can create such a situation).
@ Amanda: I should clarify; I’m certainly not meaning to imply that all date rapes are just miscommunications. (You don’t seem to be taking it that way, fortunately, but I wanted to be clear.) But… the sort of situation I described a) happened to a friend and b) is the sort of one my guy friends are most worried about. They’ve been taught reasonably well; they know ‘no’ means ‘no’. They aren’t predators. But..they worry. They worry that they’ll be accused of rape if a drunken hook-up went too far and the girl regrets it later.
And as a result of that, they tend to give other guys the benefit of the doubt. That’s the real danger here; that if things aren’t well-defined, not only can we not prosecute the ones that need to be prosecuted, but that people assume that all date rape is just a miscommunication and it’s terrifying to think of facing jail for not talking. So it gets swept under the rug. And instead of wondering why three assholes decided to rape an 18 year old, we’re wondering if her navel ring sent the wrong ‘message’ and made her ‘loose’.
@ Brian. Exactly. There needs to be a dialogue about this earlier. I had public school sex ed. Which meant at the end of it, I could identify anatomy on a chart and tell you all about how STDs were transmitted.
What I couldn’t tell you was how to take control of a situation I was scared in, what sex would be like the first time, or how to talk to a partner about it. Date rape? We got a definition: ‘forced sexual intercourse by a person trusted by the victim.’
Parents? Catholic. No help; their strategy was a bit more of ‘Our little girl is innocent; she won’t get into those situations.’ Like has been reiterated a lot here, those situations don’t look like ‘Girls Gone Wild’. I was lucky, but if I think of how my tame college experience could be interpreted if something had gone wrong (“Well, that slut shouldn’t have been drinking a beer and watching a movie alone with a guy she only knew a month.”)
The best help I got was from an ex-boyfriend, who warned me when I went off to college not to drink punch at parties or to leave my drink alone.
My sisters are younger; they at least had me to help with the ‘don’t-drink-the-punch-don’t-leave-your-drink-alone
-keep-an-eye-on-your-friends-and-stay-in-groups-if-anything-happens -it-is-not-your-fault-call-me-not-mom-then-hospital-then-police
-and-tell-police-to-catch-him-before-i-get-there-else-they-gonna-find-him-with
his-balls-nailed-to-the-wall-and-we-don’t-need-that’. (I remember the look of horror/mystification on her face that anyone would do anything to the punch.)
But what do we tell her about the borderline cases? What do we tell the boys?
Brian, I couldn’t agree more. But teaching girls and boys what sexual intercourse entails before they actually do it shut down as “pornographic” by religious conservatives who can’t fathom that you might want to teach this to kids for reasons other than to get aroused.
Cala, to a certain degree they are making excuses for the rape culture–understandable in the sense that men derive certain benefits from it that many are loathe to give up. But the solution to their fear is for them to take it upon themselves to reimagine sex from something that you obtain from women with consent as nothing but an obstacle. Which is to say that consent shouldn’t be just an absence of protest but in fact a show of assent. Not just “no means no” but graduate to demanding that men refrain from having sex unless they have a bona fide enthusiastic partner.
The law already acknowledges that consent is an active thing–that’s why it’s considered rape to fuck an unconscious person, because that person by definition is not consenting. Consent is active. I think that we need to remind people of this and often.
Also, consent and desire should be one and the same–you say yes because you want sex. Too often we act as if sex is something women tolerate in order to be liked. That’s shameful. A woman having sex should be a woman wanting sex.