I’m asking for advice on cat dynamics. I’m gong to explain the cats and the situation involved in detail, and the specific question is below the cut.
Here’s the situation. Mike and I have two cats. One is a female, Athena, who is about four years old. We got her from the animal shelter last year. She seems to have been traumatized at some point in her past, probably via whatever landed her in the shelter as a three-year-old spayed cat who had obviously been someone’s pet. The shelter found her abandoned. She’s a dilute tortoiseshell, affectionate, sedentary, not super-bright, and kind of obnoxious–she pees when she’s stressed, or whenever she finds something she’d like to pee on, meaning our house has had to become an afghan/blanket/loose fabric free zone. If she’s really stressed, she’ll pee on our quilts or our clothes. We have to keep our bedroom door closed most of the time.
We also have a little, male grey tabby, Hermes, who is about a year old. He’s a cat we adopted from a stray litter someone took in. He has no trauma issues, is extremely affectionate and playful, and is one of the best cats I’ve ever had.
Hermes and Athena had their rough patches for the first few months when Hermes was a kitten who wanted Athena to play with him. Athena was like, “Um, no, and also get away.” They’ve worked it out, though, and are now good friends. Athena grooms Hermes, and they rub against each other whenever their paths intersect, and they sometimes sleep in a pile. Athena still hisses/growls/bats occasionally, but I don’t think this is so much a hostile maneuver as a “not now, kid, come on.”
Enter cat three.
Nine years ago, when I withdrew from Sarah Lawrence after my freshman year, I asked my parents to get another cat, and eventually they did. His name is Alexi and he’s part Maine Coon. He’s a gorgeous animal. He was six months old when we picked him up from the shelter, but already the same size as an average cat. As a grown cat, he’s enormous. He actually weighs about the same as Athena, but where she’s fat, he’s just very big. His huge, thick coat makes him look even bigger. He has the classic mane and tufted ears; he’s just very beautiful.
He’s also inquisitive, intelligent, and gentle, with the characteristic tiny mrrp voice of Maine Coons. He’s pretty independent and usually chooses to spend most of the day going about his own business, but he requires at least two intense bouts of petting a day. He’s a really nice cat, and I’ve always liked him a lot.
There were several years–when I was at Santa Cruz and Iowa–when I couldn’t have a cat with me, so Alexi stayed with my parents. My parents also had a second cat, a small and grouchy tuxedo cat–Natasha–who wanted nothing more than for people to sit and pet her all day. Even though they lived together for seven years, Alexi and Natasha never got along. This was primarily Natasha’s fault–she DESPISED Alexi from the moment she first saw him when he was a kitten. Every time she ever, ever saw him, she seemed to remember all of a sudden, “Oh my God, THERE’S ANOTHER CAT. I WILL NEVER HAVE PEACE AGAIN.” She hissed, growled, scratched, batted, and freaked the fuck out. She rarely did it with her claws out, although exceptions could be made.
Alexi, for his part, mostly just hung out. He rarely aggressed. He never made noise. He’d just kind of see her freaking out and then sit down, seemingly sadly.
Or, if you interpret it another way, he’d see her freaking out, and then sit at the very periphery of her freak-out range, as if asserting his right to be there.
She was dominant. She got to eat first and stuff. But periodically, Alexi would get sick of being yelled at all the time for the crime of existing and… retalliate. He’d wait around a corner, patiently for a long time, and then pounce when she walked by. (She took to looking nervously around corners, even when he was nowhere near.) He’d sit on the other side of the cat door, knowing she wouldn’t go through if she saw him. And every once in a while, he’d just chase her around–being so much bigger and faster than she was that he’d be running literally on top of her.
It sucked that they hated each other, but nothing we or my parents tried solved it.
Imagine everyone’s surprise when–after Natasha’s death–Alexi went into mourning. His behavior patterns changed. He lost weight. He started crying all the time. My parents go on long trips a couple times a year, and he completely freaked out while they were gone–he couldn’t handle being alone in the house for weeks at a time. Also, he was peeing and pooping in inappropriate places to demonstrate this, which was freaking my mom out.
So the next time my parents planned a trip, I couldn’t handle the idea of him being so miserable again, so when my mom started complaining over the phone about the inevitable gastric evidence of his displeasure, I said, “Okay, you know what? Let’s just move Alexi to our house.”
This was a solution which had been proposed before. When Mike and I moved to Bakersfield, we’d intended to take Alexi with us–but we initially moved into an apartment, and we knew he wouldn’t tolerate the lack of backyard. By the time we were in circumstances to take him, it just didn’t seem like a good idea–we knew Alexi would hate being relocated to a new range, and also my parents really love him when he’s not crapping underneath the piano. So everyone decided he’d stay with them, and we’d get our own cats, which of course we did.
Last time I posted about Alexi, people seemed unsure about whether or not he’d remember us from my parents’ house. He does, of course. Mike and I have both lived with him for large sections of his life. We know him well.
He’s adjusting pretty well to our house, in some ways. He spent a few days wandering about moaning and looking for my parents, but then he stopped. He no longer bangs on every closed door to see if it will open on his old house. We leave the back door open, and he traverses our yard, and goes out to play wherever the cats do, and then comes home and sleeps by our feet, or in our closet. He’s stopped the mourning behaviors–he doesn’t cry all the time anymore. He seems a lot less lonely.
But our cats HATE him.
On the surface, he seems to react to their hatred the same way he reacted to Natasha’s. He walks around, going about his business, and when another cat freaks out, he just kind of flops on the floor and sits there until they quiet down. Occasionally, he pads after the other cats, mrrping a hello noise, seeming for all the world like he’s saying, “Please? Be my friend?” And sometimes he and Hermes have a little, obnoxious standoff situation where they sit on opposite sides of the cat door and glower (I think Hermes is initiating these).
When Athena sees him, she growls and growls, like Natasha used to. Hermes is either indifferent, friendly (I’ve seen them rub on each other and sniff without clashing) or sometimes freaks the fuck out. He rolls around, growling and making a gargling sound, his ears go back, he bares his teeth, and unsheaths his claws. Twice, when the altercation happened on our bed, Alexi chased Hermes out of the room (with no violence afterward; we followed). But the rest of the time, when Hermes freaks out, Alexi just sits down in response. Alexi’s usual behavior SEEMS very pacifist.
Except, I don’t think it is.
Hermes is a rough-and-tumble cat. He wrestles with the strays outside; there’s a very young black cat in particular who always comes up to play with him. Hermes ends up with wounds, but I think it’s just from rough play. So I can’t tell whether Hermes is getting beat up these days, or whether he’s just doing the kitten equivalent of skinning his knee.
But someone’s pummeling Athena.
Last week, we noticed a puncture wound over her eye. This week, there are two more. She’s never been wounded before. Now suddenly Alexi moves in and she is.
Alexi never, ever hurt Natasha. But this is a new house and a new situation. Is he hurting Athena?
He’s not doing it when we’re around, and I’m actually around most of the time. But sometimes, we sleep. Is he doing it then?
We’ve taken some steps to try to calm all the cats. We have one of those plug-in, smell-generating things thats supposed to soothe cats. We have a bottle of spray that’s supposed to simulate cat-face pheromones and calm the cats down by making them think all the territory is already marked as theirs. We’ve stopped closing the back door at night (which we did because we would prefer the cats not be able to get into the street after dark) which has allowed Alexi and Hermes to go out to run around and blow off steam at night, instead of all piling on our bed to sleep with us and having enormous cat fights at 3 AM, which was not something we could live with long-term. (They seem to have settled for sleeping with us in shifts.)
But I’m not sure what else to do. Obviously, I don’t want Athena to get beat up on a regular, long term basis. If this is some kind of hierarchical cat issue that will work itself out once the new dominance is established in a month or two… well, I’m not in love with the idea, but I guess everyone can live with it for a short period of time. But if we’re subjecting her to long-term bullying and injury? No, absolutely not.
In that case, we’ll have to send Alexi back to my parents’ house–where he will be alone and where he will start crying all the time again. Obviously, Alexi doesn’t want to be left alone without humans. But equally obviously, he wants to be around other cats. But that’s not going to work if he injures them.
We’ve got the interests of all three cats to balance here, as well as our own need for some sort of household harmony, and–you know–occasional sleep.
Maybe there’s some magic bullet behavioral therapy, or technological assistance, that we can employ here. It would be a big relief if there were. I know many people manage much larger herds of cats than our discordant three. Is there a trick to it? What’s your advice?
—
Hmm! A new wrinkle! My friend Ann asks, “Are there any new cats who’ve showed up in the territory besides Alexi?” Why, yes, there is a new orange tabby. Perhaps he is the culprit who’s wounding Athena. Particularly since A) Alexi has no track record of hurting Natasha (though plenty of track record of coming home with wounds from fights with strays outside, which Natasha never did), and B) Athena’s first wound showed up last week, which coincides with new orange tabby’s appearance, but Alexi’s been here for about three.
I think we may try keeping all the cats indoors for a bit. This is antithetical to both peace of mind (the cats go a bit nuts when they can’t run around like they’re used to being able to) and sleeping (because of the kerfuffles on the bed), but maybe we can lock Alexi in the garage at night for the duration of the experiment. He’s used to it; my parents have always done that with their cats.
Lack of wounds on Athena during the experiment wouldn’t be *conclusive*, but it might be suggestive.
Hard to say what’s going on here, since you don’t have a closed environment. As Ann suggests, it could be any cat in the nabe who’s hurting Athena, and it could be other cats that are affecting the dynamic inside the house. A continuation of outdoor politics inside, maybe.
But from what you’ve said, it sounds like you’ve got an alpha cat problem — Alexi has the size to be alpha, but not the temperament. Yet you keep putting him around cats with the temperament but not the size, and the inevitable is occurring: they’re trying to dominate him, and they can’t because he’s a kitty Mack truck. (I love Maine Coons, but the males are truly ginormous. Hopefully Alexi won’t have their usual trouble with hip dysplasia when he gets older.) So this is an unresolvable situation — you won’t have harmony until your alpha cat Athena establishes herself as the queen of the roost, and that’s never going to happen because she literally can’t dominate Alexi. Is she able to do any of the usual dominance-establishing behaviors with him? (e.g., Pinning him down) I’m guessing no. And with that many cats in a household, you need a hierarchy to keep things peaceful.
That’s my read on it, anyway. Note that I am not the Kitty Whisperer; my cat is so dominant that she literally can’t have any other cats in the household, or she’ll try to kill them. -_- So now she’s a singleton.
unfortunately, with cats it’s really hard to tell how the chips are going to fall in dominance struggles. in general, i try to avoid introducing adult cats into the flock full stop, especially if my top cat is a female. i love the girls, but they’re pretty pro status quo. *sigh*
it can also take a couple of months for cats to work out their pecking order, so it’s often hard to tell until you’ve put a lot of work and angst into the situation that it’s just not going to work at all.
my advice is to wait it out and see how they settle themselves. the little wounds they get from infighting aren’t usually serious. i’d only be concerned if they were tearing each other up to the extent that you needed to get a vet involved. otherwise, it’s okay to let them bicker a bit. i see a lot of airy-fairy cat behaviour products and techniques and i don’t think a lot of is worthwhile. from my experience, sometimes you just have to let them work through the rough spots without potions, powders, or gadgets.
and i see an edit about a potential new bully in the neighbourhood. i’d say ruling him out as the culprit is very sensible. a new tom cat in the area can throw everyone into turmoil, especially if he’s intact and looking to be the baddest dude on the street.
This may not be practical depending on the setup of your house, but would it be possible to physically separate Alexi from the others for a while? Keep him in a room while the others are out, and vice versa, let them out of the house separately, and so on?
If Athena is still getting hurt under such a setup, that would mean it can’t be Alexi doing it. And this is also a way to gently accustom cats to each others’ smells without the threat of physical confrontation (generally better to do it from day one, but it could help this way too).
We had an issue for a while with our territorial-but-small only cat having to deal with two new large-but-unaggressive interlopers for a while. Our house was large enough that they ended up mostly dividing the territory: the new ones downstairs, our cat upstairs. There were still hisses and occasional battles every so often, and all of the cats were stressed and unhappy until the new cats left again eight months later. Feliway didn’t help them either. In short, it’s really hard to tell if it will work itself out. Some cats adapt immediately; some never; some somewhere in between. I think two months is a reasonable middle ground to see if it appears to be getting any better.
Our house is 1600 feet, but we have to keep the bedrooms, office, and gym closed because of Athena’s urination problem. While she sometimes will refrain from peeing on our bed, she loooooooooves to pee on the futon in the gym and the guest bed in the guest bedroom, and she occasionally finds things in the office that apparently need a gloss of urination.
More territory would probably help, though. I’ll ponder.
How was Alexi introduced to the home? If he was just brought in, fast intro style, then he was undermining the old alpha from day 1; he was an alien invader plopped down and a threat, rather than a guest invited in by the alpha. I usually recommend slow introduction, which it may or may not be too late to go back to if it wasn’t done in the first place, depending on the personalities of your cats. If you think it might help, here’s how it goes: for the first week, new kitty has his/her own room, and old kitty has the rest of the house. Treats* and praise are given to both on the border of the two territories to associate the unfamiliar kitty with positive things (obviously this is easiest with 2 or more people). Always start treating and praise before introducing new scents/cats (the positive association is stronger this way than the reverse). Near the end of week 1** start rubbing towels on Kitty A then putting into the territory of Kitty B and vice versa with praise and treats. Week 2, start switching territories for an hour or more at a time, depending on how agitated the kitties get. Treats & praise. Increase the length of time of the territory switches gradually. If all kitties are reacting well, then they can start socializing. Bring old kitty into new kitty’s territory for the first few meetings only – otherwise new kitty is invading in old kitty’s territory, and is being set up as a new alpha. Doing the reverse reinforces the old alpha in her/his position. Increase visits until everyone seems comfortable (well, at least, not incredibly crabby) with one another’s presence. Then start visits by bringing old kitty in new kitty’s room, but leave the door open, so they can choose to explore the rest of the house. Eventually, if they’re not friends, then they will at least tolerate each other enough to not get in scuffles when left on their own, and you have helped to reinforce the alpha.
Given your suspicions about the new neighborhood cat, it’s definitely worth testing anyway, though, and you can combine your test with the above like Heather Freeman @3 suggested.
*If they’re a cat who likes treats. One of mine is very meh about treats so I give him catnip instead.’
**This rate can be accelerated depending on how well the cats are responding. When I brought my most recent cat home, he got along so swimmingly with the resident cat that we could trust the two of them alone unsupervised during the work day within 2 weeks, but a friend of mine needed a month for her cats.
Have never, ever had any luck with the slow intro thing. The cats never gave a damn, except it pissed off the one who was separated.
*
Let me try that again, while making it clearer that I totally appreciate the effort and the suggestion and the comment! I’m just lingeringly irritated at the fact that every resident cat I ever tried that technique with sniffed the towel and was fine with everything until confrontation–like “whatever, a towel smelling like another cat”–and even ignored the initial meetings, and then flipped the fuck out once the territories were merged anyway.
Maybe it was a personality quirk of my cats. I don’t know. I just ended up not really trusting that technique, especially since the only net change I ended up with was “one miserable cat who wanted to be able to move around and got confined instead.”
Maybe the technique and I should have been separated for a while first, and then introduced slowly. ;-)
I’m going to give you some advice and you’re not going to take it. That’s okay. I’m doing it anyway in the hopes that someone, somewhere will follow it.
Do not let your cats outside unattended. There are a variety of reasons for this, but the biggest one is death.
Do you live in a neighborhood that has both moving cars and other outdoor cats? That’s a bad combination. A cat may be very knowledgeable & cautious when it comes to cars, but if there’s a fight & a need to flee then that caution disappears and the potential for horribleness is there. This happened to one of our ferals the other week. She’d been very, very careful about cars for years. Then she got chased and ran across the street at the wrong time.
Do you live in a neighborhood with feral or stray cats? The potential for injury & disease is pretty high. The ferals and strays will not have been vaccinated and when you combine that with territorial and/or dominance battles the potential for illness and/or abcess is pretty high. Our dominant stray had a massive abcess last winter that we discovered just in time to save his life.
I know that a lot of people feel that cats can’t be happy or live a good life if they aren’t allowed outdoors. It’s not true. Cats are very adaptable. Cats that are used to going outside take a little while to adjust, but they do adjust. We currently have 4 indoor cats. 2 of them were strays and 1 of them was feral. They’re all perfectly content inside.
I say this as somebody who cares for a bunch of ferals and a couple of strays. If I had the space, they’d all be in my house. If I could find someone who’d adopt them, I’d do that. I care for anywhere from 4 to 10 ferals & strays – the population varies. I know that none of them is going to live as long as they have the potential to because they’re going to get run over, eaten, injured or sick.
Do not let your cats outside unattended. I’m pretty sure that your vet will tell you the same thing.
You, unfortunately, have a cat the pees inappropriately. That’s tough to live with and very, very difficult to solve.
It sounds to me as if the new stray may well be the perpetrator of the attacks. I personally have never done the slow introduction of a new cat. I have always brought the new cat home and let the cats sort out pecking order. I’ve never had any casualties and the relationships go from civil to BFF’s.
You have probably tried all these, but if you haven’t, I will give you the benefit of my experience with cats who pee. 1) make certain they don’t have a UTI. I have heard of UTI’s being missed by vets. There are pellets that can be put in the litter box that will give you the PH of the urine. If it is off this may be the cause of the peeing.
2) Valium. Yes, it sounds overdramatic, but my cat that peed everywhere was put on a low dose of Valium for years and it stopped the behavior for quite a while. Eventually it wore off, but for many years we had a reasonably pee free house
3) Feliway. You plug this in and add a “scent pack”. The scent is not one that people can smell, but apparently it is a pheromone that makes kitties feel calm and loved and not like peeing everywhere. It is pretty much the last resort and if it doesn’t work then you have to deal with a cat the pees.
I hope your little cat family adjusts and I hope that something can get Athena’s urination problem under control.
A few things.
1. Jake Squid is right about the dangers of letting them outside. He forgot to mention cytauxzoonosis, which is a terrible, usually-fatal disease carried by ticks. All my cats (I have 7–yes, I know, that’s crazy, but it’s a long story) are indoor-only now. I decided to keep them inside after my roommate’s cat was hit by a car and killed in our very nice, safe, cat-friendly neighborhood a few years ago. That being said, neither of the vets I work with would tell you not to let your cats outside, even though they keep theirs inside. They know it’s futile. They will tell you about the dangers, most of which you are already aware of, but they won’t tell you not to let them out.
2. I agree that Natasha’s injuries could very likely have been caused by the other outdoor cat. Watch those wounds and make sure they don’t abscess!
3. They’ll get used to each other… eventually. Give them a little more time. They may never come to be bosom friends, but the fighting will subside.
4. I bet you already know this, but I’m going to say it anyway. :) If you continue to let them be inside/outside kitties, please make sure they’re vaccinated for feline leukemia, rabies, and panleukopenia. We don’t recommend vaccinating them for FIV at our clinic, primarily because vaccinating them for that results in them testing positive for it later, and if they happen to get picked up by animal control, well, they euthanize FIV+ cats.
P.S. If you’ve ruled out a urinary tract problem, and there’s still a lot of inappropriate peeing, by all means, let that one outside. We occasionally see owners who want to put their cats to sleep because they pee inside–we would MUCH rather they just let the cat outside!
For what it’s worth, my old alpha cat (who wasn’t very large, either) did that same “i am not actually doing anything but I’m going to sit right here being alpha and chill while you have a fit.”
Twice in a row we tried to take in other adult cats and failed because they ended up both stuck in the bathroom – New Cat hiding under the clawfoot tub, Old Cat refusing to stop lounging threateningly even to go use the litter box, so both pissing on my bathroom floor.
We added a kitten who would just ignore the behavior and go after what she wanted – I don’t know if it’s her, or that she’s female. So anyway, they vied for alpha nonviolently until he died, six years later, of old age – she would just ignore him unless she wanted the food/sunny spot and then she’d crowd right in and just hunker down while he beat on her a little, til he got tired of it and gave up. But 75% of the time she let him be in charge, and they never fought for real.
I don’t know what made the difference, though, truthfully. Chance, age, gender, personality.
Just FYI, this doesn’t always happen. Natasha and Alexi never got along, not until the day she died.
I’m just pointing that out because you said you work with a vet, and thus may actually meet people in that situation. People kept telling us “they won’t keep fighting” but they did, for seven years.
ETA: It occurs to me that maybe you mean injury-leaving spats. It’s true, they didn’t do that.
Oh, cat urine. I forgot to tell you that Bio-C works wonders on eliminating the odor. The odor that can last forever. It’s sometimes hard to get Bio-C, but if you know any contractors they should be able to get it.
Yeah, I meant *serious* fighting. It’s very true that there are cats who live together for years, and hate each other until the bitter end.
“Bio-C”
Thanks.
We’ve got it out of the house, but she peed in the car once…
What if the cat was FIV-positive, so letting it go outdoors would be wrong from that perspective?
(Not an entirely hypothetical question.)
The matter of outdoor cats vs indoor cats is a cultural preference. Here in GA a lot of people seem to think having outdoor cats is neglectful; in the UK a lot of people seem to think that having indoor cats is neglectful. Claw removal, common in the USA and illegal in many other places, complicates this further. No idea what NZ is like in these regards. But the stark cultural biases make me take all opinions on the subject with a huge grain of salt.
Well, another option would be to return His Majesty the Furry Tank to the parents’ house, and get him a kitten companion. But failing that, I agree that time will likely help. This said, my Ophelia never had an Auxiliary Backup Cat that she liked – she softened a bit toward one after about three years, but he died shortly thereafter, and she spent most of the 10 years she co-existed with Lenore refusing to even sit on the same couch, until she got too tired and arthritic to make re-locating worth the effort.
On the other hand, when I adopted Koala and Zorya to serve as friends for poor, bored Lenore, Ophelia allowed Zorya to bully her way in to a kind of wary friendship, and would even cuddle with her. So cats, who understands them?
I have sometimes found that throwing a big catnip rave party in an area with several approved scratching devices, and sprinkling bits of it in everyone’s fur while they’re rolling around getting high, can have a positive effect on group dynamics. Also, reinforcing the matriarchy may help – give Athena treats and wet food first before serving the gentlemen, if cats crowd around for attention give it to her first, brush her first, intervene in crowding behavior by pushing the fellows off/away.
I agree that the outside stray is a more likely culprit than His Majesty, and also that minor scuffling injuries aren’t too much to worry about. Trimming claws regularly can help a great deal.
I recommend Anti-Icky-Poo unreservedly for the pee issue. Ophelia began going outside the box when her arthritis worsened, and though a more shallow, un-covered box helped, her aim was not great. AIP saved my security deposit on that apartment. Now Lenore has taken to peeing on items left on the floor (bags, hats, cat beds) for no discernible reason, and AIP is a life-saver, particularly when it comes to items that can’t be washed. I order it by the gallon from Amazon or eBay, whichever has a better deal at the time. If only I could figure out what her issue is… her long-lost brother was an inveterate fabric pee-er (and chew-er – he’d burrow into the bed and suck holes in the sheets, then pee on the feather comforter before leaving) but he hasn’t been with us in 7 years, and she never imitated him when he was around.
Do not let your cats outside unattended. There are a variety of reasons for this, but the biggest one is death.
Thank you.
I watched two wonderful cats live with chronic illness and die young because of FIV, which they only had because one of them was allowed to run loose before we adopted her. The effects of FIV are heartbreaking and the chronic illness and suffering we spent years fighting against are something I urgently wish every cat owner would avoid. It is nothing to mess around with and it’s only one of the hazards of allowing a domesticated, dependent animal to wander unsupervised.
Cats belong inside.
Spayed/neutered cats can get FIV?
New Zealand cat culture is much like the UK, except that it’s totally not cool to own outdoor cats near national parks.
FIV is fluid-borne, so if they exchange fluids (through violence) with other cats, then yeah.
ETA: Wiki: The primary modes of FIV transmission are deep bite wounds and scratches, where the infected cat’s saliva enters the other cat’s bloodstream. FIV may also be transmitted from pregnant females to their offspring in utero.[4] This differs from FeLV, which may be spread by more casual, non-aggressive contact since the virus is also present at mucosal surfaces such as those in the mouth, rectum, and vagina, so casual contact cannot be ruled out as a potential transmission.”
And re: vaccination, also Wiki: As with HIV, the development of an effective vaccine against FIV is difficult because of the high number and variations of the virus strains. “Single strain” vaccines, i.e. vaccines that only protect against a single virus variant, have already demonstrated a good efficacy against homologous FIV strains. A dual-subtype vaccine for FIV released in 2002 called Fel-O-Vax (ATCvet code: QI06AA10) made it possible to immunize cats against more FIV strains. It was developed using inactivated isolates of two of the five FIV subtypes (or clades): A Petaluma and D Shizuoka.[6] The vaccine was shown to be moderately protective (82% of cats were protected) against subtype A FIV,[7] but a later study showed it to offer no protection against subtype A.[8] It has shown 100% effectiveness against two different subtype B FIV strains.[9][10] Vaccination will cause cats to have positive results on FIV tests, making diagnosis more difficult. For these reasons the vaccine is considered “non-core”, and the decision to vaccinate should be made after discussion with a veterinarian and consideration of the risks vs. the effectiveness
*shrugs* I’m unmoved by arguments that it’s neglectful to let cats out. I’m similarly unmoved by arguments that it’s neglectful not to, re: the woman who visited our house last year and intimated that it would be immoral if we didn’t let our cats go in and out as they choose.
I’m unmoved by the argument of risk. If we were on a busier street, I might be more moved by it, since the risk would be increased. We’re not, though. It’s true that one of my cats could be hit by a car or could contract a fatal disease from another cat. It’s equally true that I could be in a car accident or contract a contagious disease from another human, and yet I don’t circumscribe my behavior based on these risks, or the other risks I incur by living in public, social space. It’s true that I have a conscious understanding of risk that my cats don’t have; it’s equally true that considering informed consent to risk when it comes to cats is going to be a complicated matrix at best, since if we’re going to use that standard, then we’ve really got to re-examine fixing them.
There’s stuff that freaks me out, sure. A livejournal friend recently wrote about his cat returning home with an arrow through his chest. WTF, sociopath? But this is even less likely to occur, and the fact that it’s scary doesn’t increase its statistical probability.
I understand that people who’ve had losses feel differently, and I don’t think it’s bad to feel differently.
I have a perfectly valid nearly 30 years of cat ownership, though, with no incident–no cars, no injuries, no sociopaths, no diseases, no cats dying under fifteen years old. Sure, it’s anecdotal, but not the first anecdote in the thread. I know there is some statistical evidence about the lifespan of cats who go outside versus those who stay in, but I’m not sure what factors they control for.
I find the songbird argument more impactful, personally. I hope that the food we provide for the feral cat and her kitten we took in last year and continued feeding once we’d raised her litter (two of whom we tamed and adopted out)–and consequently, all the other strays who like to wander by for snacks–makes up for some of the ecological damage, by lessening (though not eliminating) the ferals’ need to hunt for food.
Anyway, we’re not going to keep the cats inside. I appreciate the intent behind the advice so far, though I admit to being hesitant to respond to it, because I feel like it’s possible someone is going to accuse me of being abusive to my pets and not really loving them because I came to a different conclusion than they did. No one’s done that yet, but I’ve seen arguments like it crop up elsewhere (about things I agree with and things I don’t).
It seems like pet ownership is one of those things that inspires One True Wayship, where there’s supposed to be a Right and Wrong way to do it, and there are a lot of bad feelings when people disagree (again, on both sides of any given issue). I guess it’s got a few echoes of child rearing like that, although thankfully much more mild.
I have heard someone suggest putting tuna oil or something else cat’s find yummy on their fur; they will then be consumed with the desire to lick it off and will groom each other instead of fighting, and if you do it enough they will be used to being relaxed around each other. I’ve never tried it before and have no clue as to it’s effectiveness.
I had some success with getting my cat to stop freaking out and attacking any cat that came near him by putting the offending cat near him and petting them both. Eventually the freaking out cat got used to the other cat. It seems once he got used to the one stranger he accepted all of them; he has never had any problems with new cats and cuddles them all equally.
Before that he and the other 2 cats we had had all been fighting whenever they were in the same room; moving one of the girls to my bedroom (which is usually off limits to cats) for much of her time stopped the fighting. Territory rearranging can definitely work.
I agree on the cat thing; I let mine out as well. The idea that they can get used to being inside… well, I’ve seen the videos of those people with tiny apartments and 30+ cats. Cats can get used to that, and any situation they’re put in, but that doesn’t necessarily mean it’s right.
Do be careful for days with increased traffic… our street usually gets one or two cars a day… but on the 4th of July there was a massive amount of people heading to the boonies for boating and BBQing and the traffic went up… our cats weren’t used to it, and one of them was hit.
I hope everything works out for your kitties though.
I want a kitty, but I can’t have one because my mom is allergic and my brother has asthma. :(
If the big issue here is the wounding rather than the acclimation period, one thing you might try is a product called Soft Paws. Soft Paws are plastic caps that slip over the trimmed claws of the cat in question. We use it for our (lone) cat to keep her from shredding the furniture, but they can just as easily prevent wounding from fighting or even heavy play. Then you can take measures to solve the territory problems without having to worry that anyone is getting hurt in the process.
The only thing is, if you put Soft Paws on one, you should put them on all of them to avoid any false inequities while they acclimate.
Oh, what Lee said helps a lot – tuna oil hasn’t done it for us, but Kitten Milk Replacer worked wonders with a few cats, and also the sprinkling catnip on everyone that someone else mentioned can be really helpful for the transition period. (we’ve tamed and rehomed a number of farm cats through the years.)
Also, any non-chlorine bleach is mostly hydrogen peroxide and will work really well on cat pee smells – mix w/water, if it’s powdered, and pour it all over the car upholstery/carpet, let it dry (w/windows open if you can) and then vacuum/brush up the powder.
Mandolin,
That’s precisely why I said you wouldn’t take my advice and why I said that’s okay. I think that you’re wrong, but I don’t think that you’ve come to your decision without thought, care or concern for your cats.
Re: Your ferals. If you haven’t already, I encourage you to trap and neuter the ferals that you care for. TNR (trap, neuter, release) has been the most effective way, so far, to limit feral cat populations.
I wish I could be more helpful – we have had cats who disliked each other, but only to the point of getting hissy and indignant, never to the point of causing severe stress. Valium might help; so might having one part of the house be Alexi’s territory, or possibly only for Athena, or just for Athena and Hermes (it sounds like it would be possible to set things up so the smaller cats could get in and out but the super-mega-sized cat couldn’t. Of course, this depends on your house space and setup. Is there room for a smaller-cats-only outdoor enclosure?).
An extra trip to the vet to ensure that neither Athena nor Hermes is suffering from any medical problems would be a good idea – obviously, discomfort/pain is not causing the behavioral problems, but it probably wouldn’t help. It would also let the vet make sure there’s no abscesses or similar problems resulting from bite wounds – as you know, cat bites have a nasty tendency to go bad; their teeth are like little hypodermic needles of doom.
We are very lucky in having (finally) two cats who get along beautifully; they came to us at the same time, from the same place, which helps.
Oh, and I don’t know about anyone else, but I’d love to see pictures of the cats.
Regardless of whether they are indoor or outdoor cats, if one is getting scratched/wounded regularly, a pinch of powdered vitamin c mixed into their food daily is a wise measure. It will quite reliably prevent wounds from developing abscesses.
Place I worked once, we lost 3 front-office cats in 10 years, because the people in the front office let them outside. One got run over, the others were never found. You’d think they’d learn… But I am glad to see so many people here helping each other to take better care of their furbags. If I ever have one, it will be inside unless leashed.
My boyfriend and I tried tuna water in introducing his cat (female) to my two (1 male, 1 female). All that got us was bathing all three cats.
We eventually added a fourth (female). What we’ve worked out is my girl has her own room, water, food bowl, and litterbox. At first, we shut her in, but at this point (1-2 years later), the doors are open or openable-by-cat. The other 3 get along together just fine, and stay out of Sara’s room, and she doesn’t want to visit the rest of the house, and there is no more random pee in the kitchen. Yay!
I’ve had lots of grumpy cats over the years…the wife when we met had 3 brothers who loved each other dearly but every week or two they did a dominance thing. The fourth cat was an only that a friend couldn’t keep-female. The boys hissed and swatted, she ignored them. I caught one licking her when his brothers weren’t around….as soon as they showed up, he was all hissing and growling. We generally now have 4-8 cats at any given time plus 3 dogs. The adult cats, save Maya who really doesn’t cre for anyone, exccept when she wants to be petted, will accept anyone we introduce to the whole “”pack”….we are the pack leaders. Little kittens are universally disliked by all, except 2 of the dogs, who are absolutely enthralled by them (go figure) and will bark and growl at each other or us if we come between them. We have dominance fights all the time, usually Maya instigating, but the pack stays a pack (or pride). One of the adults is a huge flamepoint manx…. personality wise a lot like your Maine coon. He WILL either ignore or put in place anyone who pushes it(like the around the corner attacks). I think we have less trouble because of the size of our pack than people with one or two cats, and the fact we do rescue strays, or give temporary shelter to both dogs and cats and they are used to interlopers.
Advice? Nothing great. I do think it is likely the new orange neighborhood cat who is causing wounds, not your new one….not in his track record. I would make sure Athena doesn’t have low-grade FUS ….our grumpiest cat ever got stones in his urinary tract that would cause bleeding if he got the wrong food….even catching a mouse could do it. I’m betting she either has some low grade thing making her grumpy, or she’s like our Maya and just a b!#@# who will always hate sharing territory. Hermes is going to be buddies with Alexis once he quits doing the freak out thing to stay in Athena’s good graces. He’s doing like Hobs. being friendly when he doesn’t think he’ll get ragged on about it. Advice for cat fights on the bed at 3 AM…. it is YOUR BED. You are the TOP ALPHAS. Remember this. When a fight starts, the cats get physically ejected with lots of hissings on your part…”think” like you have fur and it is all poofing. Hiss, growl, eject, slam door. It is your territory until they are invited back. If the people are Alpha, not just petting and feeding slaves, then the cats will mostly follow your lead…. I say mostly because there are always dominance struggles in a pride of cats, usually the big mellow tops will do things like let insecure types win wrestling matches and play fights, until someone starts a serious challenge….then they will ignore it unless pushed really far, then end it with minimal damage or harm. But the whole trick is going to be making sure that you are alpha, which means using cat body language and not rewarding bad behavior. Petting Alexis and giving him treats and getting Athena jealous enough to come over for her share…. if either growls or hisses, you do it bigger and better, smack their nose with a finger, and withold whatever it is until they behave. Grabbing a scruff (but not lifting without support) is a momma cat thing, and automatically gives you authority….it may give you a scratch too done wrong, but then don’t react, grab the scruff, roll them on their back, and gently grasp the throat (same as you do with dogs not knowing who’s boss). Or if that isn’t going to work, just put them down and hold them there. When offending kitty relaxes, allow them to get up. If kitty insists on continuing to growl, one hand on scruff (remember you are big bad momma cat) and one hand supporting the butt so you don’t do injury, banish kitty to someplace out of YOUR territory. If you were in the living room, drop the cat (literally) in the kitchen.
Being boss with cats does not mean they will suddenly obey, but it means that as pack/pride leader, you get to pick who shares your territory, and the fighing will subside to a dull roar. If two cats decide to despise each other, they will go for the option to ignore each other rather than continue the warfare, at least in your presence. Good Luck.
This may help, may not, but fwiw: nine years ago we got two cats from a shelter, Jake and Fluffy, and six years ago we got two kittens, Callie and Achilles. We had another cat, Ed, who predated everyone else, and who died of old age almost three years ago; Jake disappeared shortly before that. Fluffy never got along with anyone else, not even Jake with whom she had lived previously, and she hated hated hated Ed and now hates Callie. She also didn’t like people, would often growl and hiss at whoever came near, and almost never purred. We also complicated matters by having a dog for six months or so; with the dog’s advent Fluffy, who had wandered quite a lot anyway, took to absenting herself almost all the time, even after the dog was gone. Three summers ago we didn’t see her at all for two months; we presumed her dead (in addition to the other perils mentioned there are coyotes on adjacent conservation land) but eventually spotted her in a neighbor’s yard, took her to the vet (she was overdue for shots), and brought her home. Since she was by then essentially feral we decided to do the slow-introduction thing and shut her in our bedroom. She is still there, and she is much happier; she purrs, she snuggles with us, and she still hates Callie although she will allow Achilles into her domain if he bows down to her, which he’s willing to do. (Achilles is a very sweet and also very smart cat.) Callie and Achilles go out, although we try very hard to keep them in at night; Fluffy does not.
All of which is working up to: is there a way you can isolate Athena and see if she’s happy that way and if Hermes and Alexi can then work it out between them? I’ve known cats, especially old ones, to be quite happy in a small space, as long as they had food, water, and litter. (Our bedroom is quite large, about 300 s.f., but I’ve seen cats live contentedly in 100 s.f. or so.)
P.S. By “isolate Athena” I meant isolate her from the other cats, not from humans. IME cats who have no social contact at all tend to become unsociable.
Keep your cats indoors at all times anyway. Cats aren’t native to this environment. They don’t belong out of doors.
Congratulations on not reading any of the previous discussion of indoor/outdoor cats, including the parts about culturally-based ideas of Where Cats Belong, and instead just making a blanket pronouncement from your pedestal of complete correctness.
Elusis, yeah, actually, I did read it. And frankly, I don’t care about the cultural relativity of whether or not cats belong outdoors.
From an ecological perspective, they’re an introduced species. One that is wreaking havoc on the environment by killing not for hunger (so, Mandolin, feeding strays isn’t lessening the number of kills they make) but to sate a hunting instinct completely divorced from a food drive.
And thanks for reading the link, which addresses all of those points!