…Via a very unapologetic and blunt article from Salon.com. I agree with the writer that whenever politicians attempt to apologize for racism (especially when the media is conveniently in attendance for this), it can be patronizing and condescending. Some times these “apologies” are laden with quasi-pity and they’re just empty words. Then these apologies are not transformed into real actions, and those up at the podium doing the apology seem to forget the nicely staged ‘publicity-apology’ and the issue of racism in this country, right after the press conference is over. It’s back to politics as usual once the cameras are off and the African-American Community leaders have left. But anyway…
Too damn little, too damn late
Senators can take their half-assed lynching apology and shove it.June 28, 2005 | You were expecting, maybe, gratitude for your lynching apology? You should live so long. Here are my top 10 reactions to America’s latest patronizing attempt to repent its racism:
1. Bite me.
2. Damn right, the least you could do.
3. Mighty white of you.
4. Gee, couldn’t you have waited just a little longer — until even the trees from which the “strange fruit” swung were dead?
5. I’m not impressed, but then, I’m bell-curved. What do I know?
6. Thanks for kicking our asses so hard, and for so long, that we were forced to develop entire art forms around our oppression.
7. Try not to break your arm patting yourselves on the back.
8. Give us back the land, the businesses and the unpaid debts that were the true cause of many lynchings. You sleaze bags!
9. Gee, was there no appropriate Hallmark card? Let a sister help you out:
[…]
10. Thanks for absolutely, positively nothing. You feel better. We feel worse. Déjà bloody vu all over again.
[…]
The crux of the matter is this: Had America ever truly repented its racism, no apology would be needed now.[…]
So I’m with the lynching descendant who said: “I won’t accept their apology … What they used to do with a rope, today they do with a paper and pencil.” […]
And now that we’ve gotten our empty apology, the question isn’t how blacks feel, it’s how whites do. Shamed? Guilty? Bored? Patronizing? Victimized? Shriven? […]
‘Oh, but African-Americans should be grateful for these occasional table-scraps of faux-sympathy from politicians, and the nomination of token-Blacks to higher political offices.‘ Yes, a few nice p.r. things here and there will shut-’em-up, and keep them voting your way so you can stay in office, and keep doing almost nothing to really help African-Americans.
Yes the apology was awfully sweet of them. Now let’s see them put that pretty little choreographed apology of theirs’ into real action and deeds (no, I’m neither asking for the lynch victims to be brought back from the dead, nor changing the past–that’s impossible). But I won’t hold my breath, as I’m sure the Senators have forgotten all about the “apology” and the issue of racism in this country by now.
So any step in the right direction is bad, because it’s not enough? So until the whole problem is solved, everything people do to try to fix the problem is a charade? The bill had 85 cosponsors. I wish it had 100, but what were the 85 senators who did want to apologize supposed to do? Wait for Trent Lott to die? (And there was no recorded vote on it thanks to Lott’s successor as Majority Leader, Bill Frist, not to the supporters of the bill.) The apology may not be what Debra Dickerson wanted, but I can’t figure out why it made her fel worse. And I’m awaiting your explanation of which elected black leaders are tokens and which aren’t. I’m sure they’d love to know too.
I think it is really easy for white folks to simply not notice the racism that exists in our culture today since they arent the brunt of it. I think I noticed it more than most people because I grew up in Detroit and went to Detroit Public Schools where race as an issue was talked about a lot. But, even so, it wasnt until later on after I got fat and started noticing the very subtle ways fat people are treated badly that I made an effort to notice discrimination against people in other minority groups.
Apologizing for things like lynching is hollow. It cant be anything else. How can a person really apologize for something they didnt do? Maybe they could give up some of the privilege that racism has given them over the years but very very few people will ever admit that anything they have is the result of anything other than their own hard work.
Um, PA, you did get the author’s permission before reprinting the entire article here, right?
You can’t really apologize for something you didn’t do, and the converse is also true: you can’t blame someone for something they didn’t do. I’m not crazy about symbolic apologies on the part of congress but it is well intentioned, so leave it alone.
well okay, black community. you tell me, then. what should white people do? seriously. tell me goddammit. should i feel guilty? no, then it’s “all about how i feel” and about “insincere apologies”. should i not feel guilty? no, because then i’m not acknowledging my white privelege. well what the hell?
when this woman’s ancestor was being lynched, my ancestors were broke-ass servants living in England, peasants starving in Ireland, random villagers in Sweden. wtf am i supposed to feel right now? seriously, someone tell me.
That might be true, but I keep thinking that if you know something is wrong and you don’t try and f ight it, you’re part of the problem. Plus, it’s an truism that the poeple most affected by some ism and most expert on it–the people actually suffering from it—are least likely to be believed by the power structure over them. Therefore it behooves those in power to fight it.
Beth, let’s start with, “less defensive.”
>>broke-ass servants living in England, peasants starving in Ireland, random villagers in Sweden>>
Wow, you mean that someone residing in a country founded and populated by poor immigrants had ancestors who were poor immigrants? Incredible.
God, get a grip, will you? My Irish, German, British, and Scottish ancestors were really poor, too, but they weren’t owned. They weren’t bought and sold, or chained in coffles, or horsewhipped, or branded, or bred like animals. Killing them was murder rather than vandalism. Injuring them was assault rather than punishment. Their marriages were valid, and their children were their own.
And _fifty_ years ago, when black people in the South had no enforceable right to vote, my grandfather, grandson of broke-ass Irish immigrants, was getting a law degree and making a down payment on a house. How many black men and women do you think were in his graduating class? How many were moving into his neighborhood?
The point of the article is threefold:
(1) Too late: Nearly a century and a half to get a simple apology for centuries of brutality.
(2) Too little (a): And what an apology! The Senate wouldn’t even sign it unanimously, because some of their constituencies _still_ are offended by the suggestion that slavery was a bad thing.
(3) Too little (b): Senators! The continuing problem of racism in American society, and the disastrous inequalities it maintains…go!
There’s nothing unreasonable about, “This is not enough, and I’m not going to be grateful for this meager offering.” It is completely unreasonable on your part to pretend that the only two options are too little or nothing at all.
i’m not pretending anything. i wasn’t trying to say my ancestors were worse off. i was trying to say i don’t know what my role is in this, and sometimes i begin to think that there’s nothing at all that would be the right thing. i was looking for suggestions, not attacks.
I see. Well, next time, try more deep breaths beforehand and less profanity in the text of the request.
And if you don’t want to introduce comparisons between owned black people and free white people that appear to diminish the sufferings of the latter, then _don’t bring them up in a context like this_.
“…appear to diminish the sufferings of the former,” that is.
piny writes:
“God, get a grip, will you? My Irish, German, British, and Scottish ancestors were really poor, too, but they weren’t owned. They weren’t bought and sold, or chained in coffles, or horsewhipped, or branded, or bred like animals. Killing them was murder rather than vandalism. Injuring them was assault rather than punishment. Their marriages were valid, and their children were their own. ”
You’re talking just about your male relative here, right?
:)
She does have a point. We are we supposed to do about racism?
I try not to be racist, and not in the overt-slurring-blacks-are-less-people way either. I have actual friends who are minorities (in this case Native, sorry, but people, I live in ND, and out of the whole 7 black people on the campus, 6 of them are jackasses. Not that’s because their black, but because their entitled-little athletes, and I hate those, no matter what color they are. Their white-counterparts are even worse.)
But how do I stop the subtle racism? I don’t cross the street when a black guy is coming at me at night, but my muscles still tense even though I know they are probably not a threat. When I still have a class when we are talking about miniority issues, I still glance at that the one-or-two minorities in the sea of white faces. How am I supposed to stop behavior that I’m not even consciously doing, and what about the behavior that I’m not even sure I’m doing?
Somehow I don’t believe the Senators who refused to sign on to the apology did so out of any principled stance. They did not want to offend their base constituencies. That is sad testimony to the state of the nation when it comes to any notions of equality and justice.
Does anybody know if the drafters of the resolution consulted ANYONE representing the group they were apologizing to, when they came up with this idea? Golly, maybe then they would have found out that they needed to do more with it. This is just more political posturing, in the hope that now they’ve apologized for it, they don’t have to pay any more attention to race relations until the election.
I dont really think anyone wants people to feel guilty about things they didnt do, that happened before they were born, and have little to do with them. I think that people would like it if white people could at least *see* how those events in the past effect things today. I dont know what was going through other people’s heads but I think of this sort of apology as mostly an acknowledgement that certain things happened in the past and that those things were wrong.
And so Beth, my suggestion to you is to consider all the subtle ways your skin color has helped you get where you are today; maybe try to pay attention to the racism that still exists in this country. And then, when you start to notice that it still exists, you can maybe do something about it.
Antigone: She does have a point. We are we supposed to do about racism?
The first step is to acknowledge to yourself and others that you are affected by racism. What I mean is this: You said that you don’t cross the street when a black guy is coming towards you at night, but your muscles tense even though they’re probably not a threat. Okay so tell people this. Tell your friends, your family and listen to their reactions. You don’t have to do it in a random ass manner, but verbally admit these feelings. It may make you feel like a racist, but at the same time you can use this to kick start discussions about WHY you feel that way. Because I will guarantee that you are not the only one among your peers who feels that way. Most people theoretically believe they aren’t racist. It’s through revealing remarks like the repeated association of crime/ghetto with black people or if an interracial relationship is taking place or when a discussion about “acting black”? comes up that people reveal that they do harbor racist thoughts. Once you start to see the ways in which you exhibit racist thoughts, do your research. Learn more about the black community and the historically struggles we’ve faced. Make yourself a well-educated ally. This way, you won’t be consciously contributing to the problem.
Sometimes recognizing and then properly understanding the ways in which we have bought into a system and then actually working to change our behavior is the only way you can help battle a problem as prevalent as racism.
Hope this helps.
>>Q Grrl:
piny writes:
“God, get a grip, will you? My Irish, German, British, and Scottish ancestors were really poor, too, but they weren’t owned. They weren’t bought and sold, or chained in coffles, or horsewhipped, or branded, or bred like animals. Killing them was murder rather than vandalism. Injuring them was assault rather than punishment. Their marriages were valid, and their children were their own. “?
You’re talking just about your male relative here, right?
:) >>
Oops.
Yes, good point, at least in most of the details I mentioned–and given the number of MRAs who compare serfdom to, well, womanhood plus serfdom, I should have been more aware of it. I just get pissed off when people compare steerage to the middle passage. Yes, being a poor immigrant was terrible. No, it’s not the same as being property.
Another thing we can all do is to try not to stick the people we meet into mental boxes based on race. Studies have shown that how we remember people is based on how we pigeonhole them when we meet them. I admit it’s kinda hard when you know only a few people of color, but you’ll be surprised at how well this exercise points out any racist assumptions you hold. I had no idea I was doing this myself until a new coworker made a big deal of how NOT racist she was by talking about “my African American accountant” or “my Hispanic attorney” or “my mixed-race lesbian neighbor” like she was collecting the United Nations or something.
If you want to learn more about African American struggles, a good stopping-off point is the Jim Crow Museum. I found while doing work-related research on jazz and blues music, and I thought it was a huge eye-opener — it’s one thing to know that “Jim Crow was bad,” and it’s another thing entirely to see documented all the big and small ways that blacks were oppressed during this time. The thing that broke my heart, oddly enough, was reading that it was considered bad “Jim Crow etiquette” for an African American couple to display affection publicly — that it would offend whites. (Now gee, where do we still see that kind of sentiment today?)
How about analyzing property tax and development initiatives in your area to see how they affect other neighborhoods, what disparate impact problems might occur, or whether segregation will likely increase or decrease if, say, your wealthier, primarily white neighborhood gets a magnet school? If you get a bunch of new apartment buildings or a mall, who might live or shop there? Where does all that increased traffic go, in your town or in the parts of the county that don’t get a vote? How segregated is your school? If you’re white, how do your child’s academic options and tracking compare with non-white students at his or her school? How does the makeup of his class compare to the makeup of the school? Why is that? If your child is in high school, which schools feed into his high school? Where are they? Who attends them? How do their curricula and funding compare? What happens to their students when they enter your child’s high school?
Antigone –
Let me echo Syndney’s points.
I see things in a particular way in this country, being a white non-american. Because what is occuring is that not only do I get ushered into white spaces where racism occurs (and no, not talking about KK rallies here, I’m talking everyday life) as I am seen as a white-american due to my skin colour, but I also know that I benefit from arriving in a pre-existing racist system that, again, privileges my skin colour.
My conception of race is different too, as the country I come from race operates under an indigenous people’s narrative, rather than the slavery narrative that occurs here. So, this means I do tend to think of race quite differently from a lot of the other whites around me.
However, does that mean I’m not racist? Hell no, even given the fact that I am in an interracial relationship. I know I am more likely to extrapolate from the behaviour of a single minority person to the minority group in general. And I echo the whole tensing thing, as I do that as well (though, honestly, a gang of white frat guys up the street scares me much more, it’s their sense of privilege that is almost palable).
Talk about race with other whites, make them realise that the bootstrap myth is precisely that, a myth. Have them see how their skin colour has influenced where they have gotten in life as much as someone non-white.
Ethnicity operates differently for whites than it does for non-whites. Whites can almost pick and choose an ethnicity in american without it really having any kind of negative consequence. Race and ethnicity for whites is about personal choice and self-articulation. This isn’t the same for non-whites where race/ethnicity is an imposed category, and one that does have negative consequences in how it is performed.
And the next thing you could do? Read. Read LOADS. I can send you a list of possible texts that I have come across in my phd studies that have really helped me understand better how race operates in this country.
Finally, talk to friends of non-white ethnic backgrounds about their experiences with white people. Don’t ask them to ‘educate’ you on race, as that is your responsbility (and mine) as a white person. Rather, look to how their experiences of white people have occurred, and then apply that to your own readings, thinking and experiences of the racial thoughts you have heard from other whites.
These are just the experiences I am doing (or at least attempting *smile*), YMMV though of course :)
oh, and for the record, I’m for an apology, it’s a starting point, a place to begin from, an acknowledgment. But any apology, no matter how good (and honestly, the one made here was insanely pathetic), means jack shit without real world things done to change the way things are. While what you say does count, what really matters is what you do.
Piny, excellent ideas that also apply to class, just not race.
To be perfectly honest, I find this whole thing absurd. Reparations? Come on. People say things like, “When will racism ever die?” Well, you know what? Racism will never die so long as people continue to go around spouting off about past grievances that they only know about from history books. They go around perpetuating the never-ending cycle of racism. What next? In another 100 years, are we going to be whining about some Senator who was voted in whose great-great-great-great-great-great-great Grandfather was a slave-owner?
Don’t get me wrong. By no means am I attempting to belittle the horrible atrocities that happened to innocent men, women, and children in this country. As a Jew, I perfectly understand how it feels to know that one’s ancestors suffered through the most cruel and inhuman treatments known to man. The point is, you don’t see me marching over to Germany and demanding apologies from modern Germans! How ridiculous would that be? Perhaps some feel that way, but it does not solve anything. The Germans that are alive and living in Germany today had absolutely nothing to do with the horrible atrocities meted out by Hitler’s Nazi. Nor is our government responsible for the fact that Jews lived in fear for their lives in the U.S. as well, so much so that countless numbers changed their names and pretended to be Gentiles, even going so far as to turn their backs on Judaism. Today’s Senators and non-black citizens of the U.S. are no more so responsible for slavery.
Can’t we all just get along? Not until we just drop it and move on. You’ll never get a sincere apology because the men and women alive today are not responsible for the past. Nor are the modern Africans reponsible for the fact that their ancestors sold their own people into slavery to the white slave-owners.
I really like the suggestions and comments that Piny and Sarah have made. I think the thing to remember is that its NOT easy fighting racism. Its not convenient and its work. Maybe the first question that people who want to learn how to fight racism in their own lives should ask is, “Am I willing to do what is necessary?”?
Stepping outside one’s privilege is never an easy thing- most people choose not too. And that is, IMHO, why racism still exists today.
Sam: “Racism will never die so long as people continue to go around spouting off about past grievances that they only know about from history books. They go around perpetuating the never-ending cycle of racism. What next?”?
Sam, seriously? SERIOUSLY?!
I’m getting a headache just thinking about how wrong you are. But let me try and give your post a shot.
Do you really want to blame the targets of racism for racism? Because that’s exactly what you’re doing when you say that people who complain about racism are perpetuating the never ending cycle. Maybe you should focus the blame on the people who are actually exercising their privilege and racist beliefs.
Are you saying that we live in an equal and just society? Because we don’t even come close. Because of this, we’re not going to be able to “drop it and move on”?. Did it ever occur to you that your privilege is blinding you to realities of other individuals?
Agghhh- you know what? I can’t even do this right now, I’m getting so pissed off. I’m sure someone else will step in here.
“Oh, but African-Americans should be grateful for these occasional table-scraps of faux-sympathy from politicians, and the nomination of token-Blacks to higher political offices.’ Yes, a few nice p.r. things here and there will shut-’em-up, and keep them voting your way so you can stay in office, and keep doing almost nothing to really help African-Americans.
Yes the apology was awfully sweet of them. Now let’s see them put that pretty little choreographed apology of theirs’ into real action and deeds (no, I’m neither asking for the lynch victims to be brought back from the dead, nor changing the past”“that’s impossible). But I won’t hold my breath, as I’m sure the Senators have forgotten all about the “apology”? and the issue of racism in this country by now. ”
———————————————
Word. Nothing to add here, but it does answer the question asked by one poster who wrote the following:
“The apology may not be what Debra Dickerson wanted, but I can’t figure out why it made her fel worse. And I’m awaiting your explanation of which elected black leaders are tokens and which aren’t. I’m sure they’d love to know too. ”
Read the piece again. And again.
As far as “tokens” go, it’s not my place to say who is and who isn’t. But I spoke with a city employee in management today who I’ve seen treated like one at a public meeting(if a White council member has you stand up in front of everyone as a testament to the lack of racism in city government(as if this action were not extremely insulting in its racism by itself), and then three weeks later, you’re bounced down and working for the White man you had trained, well that’s a definition of being treated like something) and that’s he felt, and he had applied it to an earlier discussion we had, before I knew he was bounced down, about the city never changing from the last 100 years.
But then someone said the city’s workplace engaged in plantation politics, and he’s still waiting nine years for his case against the city to go to trial. I met him when his niece was shot 12 times by four White police officers while unconscious in her aunt’s car. Upon shooting this woman dead, the officers promptly laughed, hi-fived and celebrated what they had done.
I have a boss who was finishing up an editorial on the USSC court’s decision on Johnson v the State of California and we were talking about the sole dissenting vote cast against declaring the expulsion of Black jurors as being unconstitutional, by Clarence Thomas. Interesting discussion, can’t wait to see what he writes, b/c that can be applied to stuff that the DA’s have done in this county.
There’s just a whole lot of stuff going on. Whites have the privilage of ignoring it, and benefiting from it, and decrying that they’re not contributing to racism at the same time. Then when the apologies don’t get readily accepted(because as you know, all apologies from Whites should be accepted on their face, just as you know all apologies by men should be equally taken immediately at face by women. That’s another unwritten rule of racial/gender privilage that’s not discussed.), people stomp their feet and want to take their marbles home, and say well, we tried, but they are just so ungrateful, b/c of everything we’ve done for them, they won’t forgive us this one little sin….Hogwash! An apology at most is the BEGINNING of something more powerful and meaningful, but the intent and effort has to be there. Otherwise, as someone said it was hollow.
——————————————–
“when this woman’s ancestor was being lynched, my ancestors were broke-ass servants living in England, peasants starving in Ireland, random villagers in Sweden. wtf am i supposed to feel right now? seriously, someone tell me. ”
You’re living in this country now, aren’t you? One of the reason’s why it is the most prosperous countries in the world is because it was built up by slaves. People who weren’t even allowed to struggle in their own homelands, but were kidnapped, packed body to body for weeks on a ship, then sold in the “New World” Women forcibly raped by slave owners, forced to nurse the master’s children over their own, families sold away from each other at the master’s whim. It’s one thing to be a servant; another to be property of some other person. That difference has to be recognized, but often isn’t.
———————————
“So I’m with the lynching descendant who said: “I won’t accept their apology … What they used to do with a rope, today they do with a paper and pencil.”?
Yup.
My privilege? Did you even read my post? You obviously have no idea the reaction received when people discover that one is Jewish. I forgot that there is only one “minority” in America that gets discriminated against. Besides, I never said that there is not racism in this world. But apologizing for things that happened by people that are no longer alive is ridiculous. Apologizing for current issues is one thing, but how can a dead man give an apology to a dead man? It’s preposterous.
Notice the phrasing you used there, Sam- DICOVERED you were Jewish. If I walk down the street, no one is going to discover that I’m black- its going to be pretty fucking obvious, just like it’ll be obvious I’m a woman. My point is that you’re employing this, “why don’t they just get over it logic”? that doesn’t seem to understand that hey- we can’t. As long as people can distinguish between races, then African-Americans are going to be struggling against racism. And while you may not have said the phrase “there is no racism”? you did BLAME African-Americans for racism. Which is pretty fucking stupid in my opinion.
As for why an apology, please see Sarah in Chicago’s last paragraph (post # 21).
Hmmm, a concilatory quote by a King, taken entirely out of context, only it’s not MLK, jr. It’s Rodney King, and what happened with him, is one direction of this larger topic that would fill a book, and poor Amp wouldn’t have bandwidth left for most of next month.
Police misconduct is what I work with most, so maybe I’ll discuss the appropriation of King’s comment, in further discussion. I’m not trying to be antagonistic or rude, btw.
Nazi Germany, is an atrocious situation, but it’s not comparable to what’s gone on with this country, with slavery and racism. And by saying that, this isn’t to address the severity issue, but the dynamics of each situation, were very different. Nazi Germany was much shorter, for example. How people reacted and respond to both tragedies, plays a role as well, and is somewhat different. Is their more of an acknowlegement of complicity than in the U.S? I don’t know the answer to that. Is the impact of Nazi Germany been postive for modern day Germany? Not sure.
“Sam: “Racism will never die so long as people continue to go around spouting off about past grievances that they only know about from history books. They go around perpetuating the never-ending cycle of racism. What next?”?
——————————————
What’s past is prologue.
If we do not learn from our history, we’re doomed to repeat it.
(this one’s fresh, b/c my councilman complained once to me about complaining about the past, but the past is always relevant to the present)
Does this make sense, to start with? And that the “grievances” people are “spouting off about” aren’t necessary learned in history books in school(which have either ignored, underwritten or whitewashed most of the U.S.’s “sins” anyway), but may be passed down as history from one generation to the next, just as you may have heard stories from your ancestors’ families. I haven’t talked to anyone who’s had relatives impacted from slavery who learned about it in a school book. In fact, the opposite, they learned too little about what happened in school books.
There’s lots of slaves’ narratives out there too, which they don’t teach about. A woman in my office is trying to research more female slave narratives, which have been underemphasized.
You obviously have no idea the reaction received when people discover that one is Jewish.
I know quite a bit about the reaction that I receive when people find out that I’m Jewish, and it honestly boggles my mind that anyone would compare it to the historical and ongoing racism faced by African-Americans. My mom grew up Jewish in the Bible Belt, and she gets extremely pissed off when people try to equate being Jewish in America with being black. People were often mean to her, which stank. But they didn’t prevent her from going to well-funded schools, make her sit in the back of the bus, or relegate her to the balcony at the movie theater. My grandparents both had jobs that would not have been available to black people. They could vote without facing violence. My uncle, who is profoundly disabled, received treatment at the best hospital. My mother attended a public college which was only open to white people. In ways that continue to influence my life, the fact that my mother’s family was white mattered hugely, in ways that their being Jewish did not.
Sam: I forgot to mention this in my earlier post. I know there are other minorities that get discriminated against. But this post is about race, so race is where I’m focused on.
I also wanted to give you reasons for an apology in the first place. I have taken from my earlier posts on this topic (check the 6/15/05 post on this site for the complete conversations):
Because you need to admit that that behavior [lynching]- which qualifies as a terrorist act used to commit a hate crime- is wrong in the first place. Usually when someone wants to indicate that what they did was wrong and that they do feel some remorse for the consequences that come as a result, the first thing they do is say three words: I. Am. Sorry. And if you benefited from the act that you’re sorry about, you try to do something to make up for it. Call it basic human interaction.
Also the government apologizing for when they have sat back and allowed extra-legal lynching to occur does establish a precedent that hate crimes are wrong and the government has a responsibility to ensure they don’t happen. This can be helpful in prosecuting other hate crimes that occur today, such as queer bashing and crimes against people of the Muslim faith. In a country like ours, precedent goes a long way.
And while, yes, none of these individuals [referencing the U.S. gov’t] are members of the agent group, they do serve as representatives of the body that allowed extra-legal lynching to happen: the United States Government. From that authority, yes, they need to apologize because as part of their political responsibility.
And an apology for lynching IS a starting point because of what lynching represents: a means of enforcing hate. So while an apology for slavery would be very nice, it’s easy to see how an apology for lynching is the first step. Mind you, it’s not enough, but it’s a first step. And to refuse to apologize for lynching because “it doesn’t solve the real problem”? is crap logic. Why can’t you apologize for lynching and then work to solve the real problem? What are you going to lose?
Now, no one here is saying that an apology is all that’s needed. An apology backed up with actual action would be the way to go. I do agree with the Salon writer in that it’s annoying as all hell to hear an apology and when nothing comes out of it, I do want to say fuck you. But that doesn’t mean that the apology isn’t a necessary step.
Hope that this gets through to you.
OK, you know what, I am not about to have some petty argument with you. The difference between you and me is that you choose to slander and curse someone personally, and I did not. Curse me all you want, and I will remain indifferent to your lack of control. I did not blame blacks for racism, I blamed those who perpetuate the cycle. It’s quite simple really.
The last thing I have to say about this is that you should take a look at your post again. It really negates your argument. In the beginning people were talking about racism, now it’s just racism against blacks. How convenient. People say that whites have no idea what it is like to be black. I have no intention of arguing that point. But, I have news for you, you have no idea what my life is like either. You talk about privilege as if color is a key to open every door. How about quotas? There are many times “whites” are passed over for blacks who may not be as qualified, this could be for a job or even a scholarship. All this talk of privilege as a blanket term applying to all non-blacks is ridiculous. Lives and circumstances are all different, regardless of color.
Say all you want about my view of things, but I would appreciate a little discretion on your part. You slander me as if you know me. You call me privileged as if you know me. You know nothing of me and my life and I never presumed to have knowledge of yours. There was never any call to make this personal.
I don’t get the logic here. Are you saying that because you’re Jewish, you don’t experience white privilege? I think that might have been the case a century ago, when Jews weren’t generally considered “White”; but I don’t think it’s true today.
I’m not denying that anti-Semitism exists, of course. But just because anti-semitism exists doesn’t mean that (white) Jews don’t experience white privilege. For example, there’s plenty of research showing that whites have an advantage applying for jobs, compared to equally-qualified blacks; or that whites are offered better prices on negotiable items (such as cars) compared to blacks; etc, etc. Because you’re Jewish doesn’t mean that that sort of advantage doesn’t happen to you.
Sam, absolutely no one in this thread claimed that “there is only one minority in American that gets discriminated against.” With all due respect, it’s a bit hypocritical of you to object to something that no one actually said in one sentence, and then object to having words put in your mouth in the very next sentence
You can’t have it both ways. If you think it’s unfair of people to infer something you haven’t explicitly said, then you can’t infer things that other people haven’t explicitly said.
Just to clarify, what is your view of anti-black racism? Do you think it exists in the USA today and is a serious concern, or not?
I disagree, because – technically – it’s not the individual Senators who apologized. It’s the government of the USA. And that government has existed continuously since slavery times. There is no point between slavery and current time when the USA ended and a new USA began; it’s the same country, and it makes sense for it to apologize.
You might as well say that it’s absurd for a 90-year-old to apologize for something she did when she was 30. Yes, she’s a lot older; yes, the world has changed a lot, and so has she; but she’s still the same entity that performed the harm, and it’s not absurd of her to apologize.
Why, yes, they did consult with people who weren’t white in formulating this whole apology thing.
Can we all keep in mind here that there is no single Black Hive Mind, where anyone whose ancestors were enslaved here agrees on exactly how angry they are, whether an apology is appropriate, what should be done in effforts to undo the effects of slavery, and so on?
I didn’t take the article writer’s anger as “you white people suck.” I took it as understandable anger, and the view of part (not all) of the black community. And of anger that, as so often happens, people think a really nice apology means we can all forget about it now and go home.
PA, about that cut-and-paste…
Okay Sam, I’m not black and I am Jewish so let just say that you are a putz of the first order. Uusing some general “you” doesn’t excuses your insulting tone and attitude. And now you try that garbage about white being passed over for blacks — yeah right, check any employment statistics lately (or ever)?
You tried to claim that somehow racism was going to continue becauase blacks keep complaining about something that exists only in history books as if the only injustice done to blacks in this country was slavery.
Then you claim that the apologies are meaningess because they are only for dead people. This country has done very little about the legacy of racism against blacks. You’re right, we can’t apologize to the dead but this wasn’t harm against individuals; it was institutionalized harm against a group of people. We ought to be making amends to past and current generations that have suffered and are still suffering from the results of 300 years of injustice.
BTW, I would point out that Germany has in fact apologized, paid reparations, and has strict laws about anti-semitism.
Errata:
You’re right, we can’t apologize to the dead but this wasn’t harm against individuals; it was institutionalized harm against a group of people.
should read
You’re right, we can’t apologize to the dead but this wasn’t harm just against individuals; it was institutionalized harm against a group of people.
Sam:
Where did I slander you? All I did was quote back at you exactly what you said. Tell me how I actually engaged in slandering you? Yes, I used profanity- I tend to do it when someone irritates the hell out of me. But in no way did I engage in a slander attack. Saying that you’re privileges (and by the way do you know what is meant when people use that term?) does not qualify as privilege. Hell, as a Catholic, I’m privileged. I’m not ashamed of my privilege but I recognize that it exists and I will use it to battle religious discrimination. Please- stick to the facts
As for the rest of your post….
“The last thing I have to say about this is that you should take a look at your post again. It really negates your argument. In the beginning people were talking about racism, now it’s just racism against blacks. How convenient. People say that whites have no idea what it is like to be black.”?
I have no idea what you’re talking about. People were talking about racism….against African-Americans. Explain to me how this was lost on you?
“I have no intention of arguing that point. But, I have news for you, you have no idea what my life is like either. You talk about privilege as if color is a key to open every door. How about quotas? There are many times “whites”? are passed over for blacks who may not be as qualified, this could be for a job or even a scholarship. All this talk of privilege as a blanket term applying to all non-blacks is ridiculous. Lives and circumstances are all different, regardless of color.”?
You are correct in the sense that privilege exists in a variety of fashions. But everything else you’re saying doesn’t make sense or is just wrong. Allow me to explain. Racial privilege does open doors. It’s been proven many a time. Yes, you can be a member of a target group in a variety of other ways. But this doesn’t mean that your racial privilege is negated. I am going to overlook your foolish and, frankly, idiotic comment about whites being passed over for under-qualified blacks (Now THAT is an insult to your intelligence- feel free to take offense) because it has nothing to do with the topic at hand. No one is saying that racial privilege applies to all non-blacks- I’m saying it applies to people who are white.
“You call me privileged as if you know me. You know nothing of me and my life and I never presumed to have knowledge of yours. There was never any call to make this personal.”?
You know what, you’re right- I did make an assumption. Are you white? Because if you are, then I stand by everything I have said. If you’re not, I apologize for assuming that you benefit from racial privilege.
“Hmmm, Sam, I don’t see this as a petty argument. I think this thread has had some really good discussion on it. Slander, lack of control, I haven’t seen that here at all.
“How about quotas? There are many times “whites”? are passed over for blacks who may not be as qualified, this could be for a job or even a scholarship.”
quotas have been illegal since the USSC in the Bakke (who most likely faced agism not reverse racism, due to the fact that he applied to med school after the age of 30)decision ruled them unconstitutional, in 1978. FWIW, affirmative action, itself, is illegal in several states, including California(since 1996) and I’m sure that’s going to be the trend, as a program to attempt to equalize the playing field for men of color and women lasts for far less time(30 years, for California) than the discrimination which preceded it(If you count back to 14th amendment, over 125 years, further if you count back earlier than that) That’s how “racism” is dealt with in this country.
Besides, the primary benefactors of AA programs have been white women, and white women turned their back on those programs and sided with white men, at least when California’s voters passed proposition 209.
BTW, “legacy” and other forms of AA that primarily benefit Whites is still legal in California. Any discussions proposed on these forms of AA is promptly thwarted before they get anywhere.
Reverse racism and sexism, hmmm….don’t know if I should go there….but those terms were an invention to offset any real progress made by men of color and women into areas of business, education, etc. that were deemed the domains of white men. Call it backlash, two steps forward, one or two backwards.
Both terms come up a lot in law enforcement, for example. But to even suggest that white men are discriminated against in a profession so staunched in a culture that upholds White men, is ridiculous. But cities like my own, will settle those suits a lot more quickly(even without any real evidence) while they let the racism law suits filed by Black and Hispanic employees drag on for years.
I think I understand what you’re saying here.
I may not be racist, or overtly racist, but I’m racist because I’ve had white privelege all my life and have internalized things that aren’t true.
Example: my ancestor’s never owned slaves, but they were farmers that were making an awful lot of profit selling wheat to plantation owners that wouldn’t really have needed all that bread if they didn’t have so many extra mouthes to feed.
Then when my Grandpa wanted to move to a better neighborhood, he didn’t have a bit of trouble getting a loan for a house, because he was white. Ergo, my parents got a decent education. Then my dad both became professionals, professions that at the time were exceedingly racist (nurse and Border Patrol, BP is still pretty racist), that if they were another color, odds are they wouldn’t have been able to get.
So, we grew up, and every time the neighbor “started going downhill” eg, too full of miniorities, we moved. Thus, my family contributed a great deal to white flight. I got good schools, was edcuated, and dint’ have to work more than a part-time job at school, so I had enough time to study and do extracurriculars.
So, maybe I should apologize for slavery. Maybe I didn’t do it, maybe my ancestors didn’t do it, but I sure as hell benefitted from it and benefitted from racism.
But can I admit that and still not have to feel guilt for my privelege?
“PA, about that cut-and-paste…”
It’s legit, Mythago, no worries.
Note to self: do not post when you are angry because you will make many typos and Amp will come along and say what you were trying to say much better anyway.
Antigone: I may not be racist, or overtly racist, but I’m racist because I’ve had white privelege all my life and have internalized things that aren’t true.
IMHO, that’s right on the money. And I think you’ve shown from the examples that you’ve given that you are able to recognize the different ways in which privilege has affected your life. Many of the things you’ve described are things that I’ve had conversations about when doing fishbowls and other consciousness raising activities. And you can feel guilty about your privilege (it’s hard not to when you are privileged and you know it) just don’t bask in it. By basking in it, I mean make it difficult to have constructive dialogue because all of a sudden your guilt becomes the principle problem to be addressed. Or become paternalistic in an effort to make amends. That is what really irritates people (or at least me) about white guilt.
AndiF-
I was thinking the same thing about my post…
Antigone wrote: “So, maybe I should apologize for slavery. Maybe I didn’t do it, maybe my ancestors didn’t do it, but I sure as hell benefitted from it and benefitted from racism.
But can I admit that and still not have to feel guilt for my privelege? ”
I concur with Sydney, who wrote: And you can feel guilty about your privilege (it’s hard not to when you are privileged and you know it) just don’t bask in it. By basking in it, I mean make it difficult to have constructive dialogue because all of a sudden your guilt becomes the principle problem to be addressed. Or become paternalistic in an effort to make amends. That is what really irritates people (or at least me) about white guilt.”
I was absolutely devastated when the impact and breath of my white priviledge, and white racism as a fact of life in general, hit me. I would cry and cry for seemingly no reason. That was almost twenty years ago.
And I got to the overwhelming/feeling guilty stage, after being in denial the first 20 years of my life.
Feeling guilty is part of the process of becoming aware of your racial priviledge. That you feel it now suggests to me you are spot on in this process.
In my experience guilt is an emotion where we expend energy feeling bad but do nothing in the face of it. Feeling guilt is, in my experience, a feature of white priviledge. And it is a feature to work through.
People of color do not need our guilt. They need to us to call it out and refuse to submit to it in every way we know how as often as we can. As white people we need to live in the center of a paradox, which simultaenously gives us much yet also damages us.
In addition to Sydney’s suggestions, I have found it helpful to find committed white, anti-racist activists in your life. It is not helpful to ask people of color whether or not I’m racist, or ask if I’m doing better (than I used to or as opposed to someone else).
Check out the essays of Tim Wise on ZNet or the works of Suzanne Pharr. They are both powerful white, anti-racist activists.
Andi, Sydney, thanks for the compliment. :-)
I’d like to second the recommendation of Tim Wise; this white boy, at least, has found Tim Wise very useful in helping me to clarify and increase my understanding of whiteness, white privilege and racism.
Woah, you go have a late lunch and look what happens …
Returning to the fray let me echo particularly Sydney and the powerful stuff she has been saying, and now Jay.
I can remember when I was first in denial. I wasn’t racist, I thought everyone was equal, why did I have to be tarred with the same brush as evil white people. It took me to see about all the things I took for granted, to realise how much privilege I had. I had previously seen non-whites as having less chances than me without acknowledging the reverse; namely that I had had more than them. That’s a shock when you realise that you ARE actually complicit and have been for quite a while.
My reaction after that wasn’t particularly constructive. I shut up. Whenever race issues came up in feminist or queer or whatever settings I would sit back because I told myself I didn’t know enough, and I felt like I had screwed up so much in the past that I was just going to screw up again, even if I just opened my mouth. Yup, bask in guilt.
Luckily for me that didn’t last too long :)
Now, I try as much as I can to make efforts on an everyday basis and a strategical basis. Such as mentioning at an all white queer session that we are making some pretty damn fucking culturally narrow perceptions there, or simple things like pointing out the non-white woman ahead of me in the lunch line that she had been here first when the server asks me what I want first. That’s happened so many times now it pisses me off no end.
Am I perfect at this? Fuck no. But we need to recognise our collective responsibility with not just apologies but also actions. Just as we as queers need straights to help, lower classes need upper classes to step up to the plate, we need to get up off our collective arses as whites and damn well use our privilege constructively.
Yeah, I struggle with racial privilage daily too even as I use it in my work, though I spent my first 17 years in my city with my head in the sand too. It’s amazing what you can’t see when you aren’t looking, but then you don’t have to look, is what you learn early on. After all, this is a world where when Whites say they don’t “see” color, it’s supposedly meant as a compliment(but it’s really not, it’s another manifestation of racism)
And even when you do start to see, you still stick your foot in your mouth all the time, because it takes a long time to internalize what you learn, to learn how to listen not react, and to try to undo what preceded in your life. And it’s your responsibility to educate yourself and to take some lumps to your comfort level. No matter how far you think you’ve come, you are and always will be a work in progress.
Facing priviliage is still easier than facing racism, but you would never know to hear how we avoid dealing with it and complain about it. Whatever pain you feel in your journey of addressing your complicity in racism, use it to grow, and don’t complain about it.
guilt, I think is how you learn, as long as you don’t let divert you, so that it becomes about you. It’s a motivator to change, if you allow it to be.
Feeling free to speak your mind against racism in society, is often racial privilage too which is a hard one to learn. You may use it to fight racism, but by being able to do so, you enable it at the same time, because you can say things others can’t. I’ve been told, to make your words count, and do your research, and that’s helped a lot but I still struggle with it a bit. When I forget that freedom to speak is part of racial privilage, my friends remind me. It’s sobering when some of them say they wish they could express themselves so freely.
Guilt is stupid. As Jay says, it’s an easy way to make this about *us* (“I feel soooo bad!”) than about the problem. It’s also a way to divert the conversation: “Why should I feel guilty when I had nothing to do with it and my ancestors weren’t even on this continent?!” (Uh, you should feel *responsible* for challenging racism and walking away from your privilege, nobody gives a hoot if you feel guilty, dude.)
Guys, I honestly have the best solution so far…
All us whites should just start giving out handouts to blacks. I agree completely that it’s time to turn this country around.
I will be the first to give up my car, house, bank account, college degree, and inheritance to a black person. It’s really the least I can do.
Also, I believe that whites should become slaves to blacks. If we really want to level the playing field, it’s time to start discriminating against whites. We need all white Senators and Congressman to surrender their posts in favor of new black leaders.
Next we need to legalize white slavery. After all, how will whites ever really UNDERSTAND how blacks feel unless we are beaten with chains?
I feel that I deserve to experience a lynching at the hands of a black person to ever really understand the black plight in this country.
Maybe, and it’s unlikely, but just maybe this can be a start. Us whiteys need to band together and really fight for this.
I believe we all can come together.
God Bless America!
I tend not to say a lot on racial topics, mostly beacuse I’m white, and other than speaking against racism and for equality, there’s not much a conversation I have here will do to fix things.
That said, I’m sickened by the racism of some Alas readers. People like Mike and Sam are good illustrations of how far we need to go to end racism, because it’s certainly evident in what they have to say.
It’s never-endingly amazing what petulants shits people can be when told “No, you have too much pie. You need to make sure everybody gets to have a piece,” isn’t it?
Update: I removed some parts of the original article from the post. You can follow the link to read the rest of it if you need to. That is all, continue….
Josh and Mythago,
You are both right and I apologize. It is true that this forum is very tolerant and open to another point if view. Rather than just trolling, I will bring to you my honest and genuine conservative point of view. I am also sure that after doing this, I will be treated by much respect and tolerance. I am certain that I will not be the victim of personal attack and viscious slander. If I am attacked, I am sure that rather than piling on, open minded and tolerant posters such as yourself with come to my defense.
Best Wishes,
Mike
Mike, I promise only to attack you for your lame attempts at sarcasm and humor, and never on any of your personal qualities that are irrelevant to your opinions.
>>It’s never-endingly amazing what petulants shits people can be when told “No, you have too much pie. You need to make sure everybody gets to have a piece,”? isn’t it?>>
But it’s my pie. See? Mine. Right here on my table. There’s nothing wrong with eating your own pie, right? Why am I responsible for their lack of pie? What difference does it make where I got this pie? Who cares whose windowsill it came from? It was made, that’s all, and now it’s here in my kitchen. It’s mine now, and that’s all that matters. If I shared with them, I’d suffer, because I’m used to getting a whole pie. I’d miss my pie. And it’s a tiny pie. Look: barely enough to feed one. It’s much smaller than the pies I used to get. Most white men have much larger pies. Besides, everyone deserves an entire pie, really, so it’s most fair for me to eat everything I’ve got–that way, at least someone gets fed.
Well, Mike, your behavior has shown how much you respect and tolerate people here, so I’ll take your comments with a grain of salt.
No disrespect intended of course. Carry on.
Although I cant say that I like the way people have been bringing up this question, I have to wonder: How does one give up their privilege?
Lynne,
This is just my personal opinion, so please take it as such and add a pinch of kosher salt (yes, too much ‘Good Eats’ on Food Network *smile*)
Basically, I don’t think you can give up privilege. It’s not completely an individual characteristic. Rather, it is a feature of our culture, our society that we gain through existing in that society as a member.
However, what we can do is be aware of not just having that privilege and how our society enacts that privilege, but also (and I personally think this is the most important part) how we ourselves perform, practise and impose on others, that privilege.
I don’t think honestly in our lifetimes we are going to see a complete removal of our racial privileges as whites. However, I don’t think we are being unrealistic by pushing for a considerable lessening. But we can only do this by not only becoming more and more aware of our own personal enactments and working to change those, but also call the other whites around us on their own racism. Yeah, it’s gonna feel like an ass sometimes and a bit of a wetblanket, but either you let racist behaviour go or you don’t.
I also really really like Jay’s suggestions about working with others to actively, strategically, reduce racism. We can’t pretend that just because we are aware of some of our own racisms that we are exempt from doing more proactive (whether small or large) things.
The thing to remember is that we really can’t give it up, and so we are going to have it, and be called on it from time to time. But there are things we can do with a long term goal in mind, and by accepting our place in continuing or not continuing this system (ie just because it has a large societal component doesn’t mean we don’t have responsibility for it).
But again, this is all just my opinion, so I certainly could have left some stuff out.
Guilt and pies metaphors are terrible ways to trying to extend priveledge, which is not a finite resource. Since none of us can go back in time and right the wrongs and give justice to all victims of history, we should focus on the tasks at hand. Mike and Sam quite reasonably are reacting defensively and negatively to being called racists or responsable for historical racism’s leavings. And quite apart from racism itself, white Americans are always given the responsability of understanding other groups’ cultural values, while being asked to put aside or dismiss their own. This is a non-productive and divisive tactic.
I won’t feel guilty for whatever priveledge I have inherited. I feel lucky, maybe underserving, but not guilty. Who knows what suffering is hidden in my heritage? Who cares? The question should be: will the suffering endured by the African captives brought over as slaves be all for nothing or no? And making white people walk around feeling defensive, or men for that matter, is pointless.
Mike: Ha. Ha. Ha. You’re really fucking hysterical. I all of a sudden feel compelled to take your points seriously. Man I wish I was as amusing as you. Unfortunately for you, no where in your proposed “solution”? did you come close to making a point. Even your use of sarcasm is in poor form. Everyone on this thread is now dumber for having read your post. I award you no credibility Mike, and may ____ (insert your chosen religious belief) have mercy on your soul.
Lynne: I agree with Sarah- privilege is not something one gives up. Rather, it is something one can learn to use for the advancement of self and society. Or, if you’re so inclined, the continuation of oppression. Both Jay and Sarah have already explained strategies to reduce racism, but I just want to emphasize that the number one way to an individual can work against racism is to examine their own internal racist beliefs. Once you are aware of your own weaknesses and strengths, you can then train yourself to become an ally. I’ve said this before and I’m sure I’ll say it again: the only people who can truly stop racism are members of privileged groups. So in a sense, if you care about eradicating racism, then you don’t want to give up your privilege so much as transmute it into positive action.
Elena: “And quite apart from racism itself, white Americans are always given the responsability of understanding other groups’ cultural values, while being asked to put aside or dismiss their own.”?
What cultural values are you being asked to dismiss? The values of profiting off slavery? The values of profiting off of racial privilege? I honestly don’t understand your statement that white Americans have to dismiss or set aside their cultural values. Please explain.
“The question should be: will the suffering endured by the African captives brought over as slaves be all for nothing or no?”?
Huh? This doesn’t make sense. Please explain.
“And making white people walk around feeling defensive, or men for that matter, is pointless.”?
So you’re saying we shouldn’t bring up racism (or sexism for that matter) because it makes people feel uncomfortable? I hate to state the obvious, but how do you think that racism/sexism/homophobia/etc. makes people like me feel? Good? Discomfort (defensiveness) is a necessary step in righting inequalities. I for one am not going to stop identifying and addressing these issues simply because people get defensive when they hear about them.
Sarah in Chicago, mythago, Radfem, Josh, and of course, Amp and PA, wow! excellent stuff. What a pleasure to read about individual journeys and find us all here, doing some good work as best we can, knowing we will never get it all.
Thank you!
I want to expand a little bit on Lynne’s question. First everything Sarah in Chicago said. Second, a good friend reminded me about the difference between priviledge and rights.
White people, for the most part, can dismiss people of color as pushing an agenda, or too emotional, or _____ (fill in the blank). This, to me, is an example of white priviledge that we must end..immediately!
White men, for the most part, can move through any urban or rural area unaccosted. This, to me, is an example of a basic human right that we white guys keep to ourselves through the mechanisms of priviledge. In this example, my work is not about never leaving the house, but about using my priviledge to speak out and work to expand spheres of safety for white women, lgbt folks, white and of color, all people of color, all people with disabilities….about using my priviledge to increase and enhance the rights of others.
Does this make sense? Sometimes these things are hard to grasp for me, and then harder to right about.
Thanks,
Jay
>>Elena: “And quite apart from racism itself, white Americans are always given the responsability of understanding other groups’ cultural values, while being asked to put aside or dismiss their own.”?>>
Yeah, I can’t even remember the last time I saw a white family represented in literature or art, or even on TV.
What are you talking about? What specific white cultural values are these, and when have you silenced about them? Are you referring to American history, maybe, and the values it endorses? The founding-fathers mythologies? The Mayflower story? Because I’m shuffling through the American cultural artifacts and tropes I’ve been exposed to, and I’m seeing a lot of pale faces whose prevalence is seldom, if ever, questioned.
>>I won’t feel guilty for whatever priveledge I have inherited. I feel lucky, maybe underserving, but not guilty. Who knows what suffering is hidden in my heritage? Who cares? The question should be: will the suffering endured by the African captives brought over as slaves be all for nothing or no?>>
I care. How can you so casually dispatch an injustice without even knowing its extent? And it isn’t good luck that gets you privilege, or bad luck that lands you at the bottom. An accident of birth, sure, but one that placed you in a circumstance that would be meaningless without the assiduous dividing and rating of people otherwise equal to one another. This system, and your place in it, are a result of a great deal of active racism.
And I second Sydney: what does that last sentence mean? Their sufferings are already for nothing, on the terms it seems you’re implying–no nation, no progress, no prosperity are worth what our country did to all those people.
I agree that we can’t give up white privilege, but acknowledging past injustices and calling people and institutions out on current injustices and working to prevent future injustices are constructive actions we can take instead of broadcasting our feelings of guilt. Boycotts (with letters to corporate headquarters to explain why), publicity about incidents (remember the blip about racial profiling, anyone? not that much changed!), stuff like that – these are all things we can help with.
For instance, take a look at Prince George’s County, Maryland. It’s got one of the top 10 median incomes for a majority-minority population jurisdiction, but can it get high-end retail? Nooooo. Not very many years ago, Eddie Bauer tried opening an outlet center there, I guess as an experiment, and promptly trashed its reputation by harassing 2 young men who (gasp!) walked in wearing Eddie Bauer shirts. It took them almost a year to issue an almost-apology, and in the meantime, they closed the store because it was boycotted. Since then, the county has had a horrible time getting other retailers to come in, because they are scared something will happen to expose their racism (instead of working to reduce or eliminate it). But new development and letter-writing campaigns are starting to turn this around, I think.
Or, to pick a related example, a Denny’s in Annapolis refused to serve a black Secret Service agent who was with some white fellow agents on a detail. They apologized later, and are still in business, but you bet they were boycotted for a long time, and there was some national publicity, I believe. Denny’s, unlike Eddie Bauer, has made a real effort to change the behavior of its restaurant personnel, so there was an actual positive effect from people of all colors speaking out forcefully.
Mythago, thanks for the info on the apology thing. I was just wondering, because the reactions I’m hearing to the resolution cover a wide range but are nearly universal: “What are you going to about it, now that you’ve apologized?” That’s why I said that the apology was just a cynical political gesture, because there’s no hint of a follow-through.
Elena,
You wrote, “And making white people walk around feeling defensive, or men for that matter, is pointless. ”
I, for one, do not feel defensive about being called racist or sexist. And I am a white man.
That you and Mike and Sam feel defensive about being call racist, and I and others on this blog do not, suggests to me that the discomfort of feeling rests with the three of you, not with the information being exchange on this blog.
It has been my experience over the years that the defensive you and Sam and Mike feel is part of the process of coming to understand your place in the world of white and male privilege in which we live.
Feeling defensive isn’t a bad thing. It, like all other emotions, pass.
The question I have is: why do have to dismiss as “counterproductive” the arguments brought up here as a way of addressing your defensiveness?
Wow, Mike, you agree that you’re privelaged because you’re white, and that racism is not the fault of black people who won’t let go of anger?
Here’s what I expect frou you if that’s true. I epxect you to take people who spread that attitude to task. I’m sure some thread somewhere will bring up racial issues again. I’ll be looking forward to your honest and accurate ideas on race privelage, and equality.
Have a truly supper splendiferous, utterly faaaabulous day. Go treat yourself to a manicure. Get your chest waxed. You deserve it.
Guilt and pies metaphors are terrible ways to trying to extend priveledge, which is not a finite resource.
Um. Elena? That’s exactly the point of the metaphor. Dignity, respect and equality before the law are not finite resources.
But that’s not how people who whine about losing their privilege see it. They feel entitled to their privilege, as though it’s a tangible thing. They believe allowing others the same rights and freedoms and responsibilities THEY enjoy will take away from their own rights and freedoms and responsibilities. They do not believe it’s possible to make the pie bigger, or make more pie. It’s THEIR pie, dammit, and if you want to sit down at the table and eat, you’ll take what you’re given and you won’t complain that your slice is half as big as everyone else’s, because if we gave you a fair share then there’d be less pie for us!
white Americans are always given the responsability of understanding other groups’ cultural values, while being asked to put aside or dismiss their own
Gee, I’m white, and I’ve never been told that I should “put aside or dismiss” my cultural values. Of course, I also don’t believe there is a monolithic block of “white” cultural values that all “white people” share.
>>Um. Elena? That’s exactly the point of the metaphor. Dignity, respect and equality before the law are not finite resources.>>
Agreed.
But I don’t think it’s that people see dignity as a finite resource. I think that they’re worried about giving up the material goods and opportunities that privilege opens up. And things like high-paying jobs, big houses, etc., are finite and zero-sum, but only in the “pie” sense: at the level where they become luxurious.
I mean, my child will still get an education if his school can’t afford the dsl connection this coming year, but some other child won’t if his school has thirty-year-old history textbooks.
Word, Mythago. There is no White Hive Mind. Unless we’re talking about evolved insects, there is no Hive Mind for any racial or ethnic group.
To be charitable to Elena, perhaps what she is trying to express is that the majority white American culture used to be a given, and anybody who was not white and/or born in America was expected to assimilate. But like your pie analogy, some people feel that any effort to make room for individual cultural preferences means giving up pieces of what they know and grew up with.
My high school used to have a Slave Auction as a fundraiser every year. Certain seniors were sold to the highest bidder to be their slave for a day. There were limits on what you could make your slave do, but almost nobody saw this as offensive for years and years. I think this went on until the 1980s. And when somebody finally got the light bulb and stopped it, a number of people were upset, because this was something the school had always done – it was traditional!
What’s the quote again – “Fish don’t notice the water they’re swimming in”? Something like that. Because white people own the majority culture, we don’t notice it until we become informed about others.
>>What’s the quote again – “Fish don’t notice the water they’re swimming in”?? Something like that. Because white people own the majority culture, we don’t notice it until we become informed about others.>>
And the multiculturalism idea might inadvertantly set up an erroneous understanding of culture and cultural appreciation when paired with that misconception. If we become used to seeing (multi-)”culture” as alien and conspicuous, something to be sold to an unaccustomed mainstream, then it might be harder to see the culture that white Americans belong to and are centered by as a tradition in its own right (duh) rather than an impersonal default with no inheritors.
So it’s not just that ketchup is seen as “normal” and salsa as different and strange. Salsa is coded as expressive and interesting, attached to a specific (exoticized) tradition and (exoticized) people, whereas ketchup is boooooring. It doesn’t occur to anyone to be grateful that ketchup is on every restaurant counter in the country. So you have all these people wondering where the hell their culture is, and forgetting that it doesn’t seem terribly exotic or profound precisely because it’s universally acknowledged and disseminated.
Piny, I will never see ketchup in a restaurant the same way again. :)
…This is not to slight the trend toward multiculturalism–that is, inclusiveness in history, current events, and cultural studies. And I don’t mean to conflate real study with appropriation and tokenism.
Just this: you start with a group of people whose culture is the default. Then you introduce a bunch of other cultures, which is good. However, they develop the wrongheaded idea that “culture” is something exotic, foreign, new. Then they look around and cannot see anything exotic, foreign, or new _to them_ that’s also labeled “white,” except maybe some wishing stones with Celtic knots carved into them, and they decide that there’s no culture that belongs to white people. Then they get jealous of things like Cinco de Mayo and Black History Month–a whole month! Where’s White History Month, huh?–because having a heroic inventor and social philosopher on currency is nothing like having a heroic inventor and social philosopher referred to as, “the peanut guy.”
“Guilt and pies metaphors are terrible ways to trying to extend priveledge, which is not a finite resource. Since none of us can go back in time and right the wrongs and give justice to all victims of history, we should focus on the tasks at hand. ”
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What are those tasks, if I might ask? Are they completely separate from those “wrongs” in the past? You’re right when you say you CAN’T go back and fix the wrongs, and undo injustice, but what you say and do know does matter. But you can choose not to extend those wrongs, into the present and future by refusing to admit that what happens in the past, doesn’t necessarily stay there. Using the inability to fix past wrongs, as an excuse to avoid addressing the relationship btwn what happened in the past, to what is going on in the present isn’t going to enable you to deal effectively with the tasks(which is a bit weak of a comparison itself, don’t you think?) at hand.
And the statement of not being able to go back and right those wrongs, is that a way of saying that if people want to talk about them, then they should just be quiet then?
“Mike and Sam quite reasonably are reacting defensively and negatively to being called racists or responsable for historical racism’s leavings.”
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Racist. Hmmm, I don’t recall calling anyone here a racist except for people self-identifying as such. I don’t think that’s a word that’s actually been thrown around all that much here. But it’s one that Whites, when we are defensive on race, pull out of our hats and accuse others who challenge us on our believes and prejudices, of calling us racists. That’s an old defense mechanism.
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“And quite apart from racism itself, white Americans are always given the responsability of understanding other groups’ cultural values, while being asked to put aside or dismiss their own. This is a non-productive and divisive tactic. ”
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White Americans are NOT told or given the responsibility to understand other cultures. And if asked, many of us wouldn’t know, understand other cultures living in this country, and what we think or are so sure we know, is usually negative and most often always wrong.
Everyone learns about the European(primarily Anglo) culture and its role in the “founding” of this country in school. Until very recently, any other perspective has been excluded. There’s no one set of cultural values even for Whites, and Whites of various ethnic backgrounds celebrate their cultural values and histories in this country. There’s none or litle complaint if they do it, that is seen as “American”. However, when other peoples celebrate their culture or heritage, i.e. Mexican-Americans, then there’s plenty of howling and complaints.
When Whites celebrate their individual cultural heritages, be they Irish, English, German, Italian or otherwise, that’s NEVER seen as divisive, like it is when Mexican-Americans for example, celebrate their cultural identities.
Divisive, unproductive, other common words used to protest against people challenging the White male paradymn in this country. They are seen as divisive, when it’s really the paradym that exists which divides and excludes many people in this country.
We’re never asked to put aside our own histories.
“I won’t feel guilty for whatever priveledge I have inherited. I feel lucky, maybe underserving, but not guilty. Who knows what suffering is hidden in my heritage? Who cares? The question should be: will the suffering endured by the African captives brought over as slaves be all for nothing or no? And making white people walk around feeling defensive, or men for that matter, is pointless.
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Pointless for who? For people who actually have to rethink their privilage in this country, maybe. But it seems to me that if white people’s discomfort over slavery is being said in the same breadth as “African captives” suffering, then that’s a problem, because dialogue about race and racism in this country as far as Whites are concerned tends to only go as far as their comfort level and tolerance for it, and that’s never really all that far.
Wow, I guess talk about race really touches some nerves.
Radfem, current racism and inequality are the tasks at hand. It goes without saying, or one hopes it does. And yes they are separate than past wrongs if you are looking for justice for past wrongs. There will never be justice for the slaves. Never, ever. The task at hand is education and a fair shake now for their descendents.
Noone needs to call somone a racist if you are using terms like “white male paradigm”. I mean, honestly. You don’t even really have to use catchphrases- if you are impugning someone’s decency because they resent being made to feel responsible for something they had nothing to do with, or my decency because I dare to consider their point of view, words like racist aren’t neccesary.
I want you to understand something: I love Black History Month. Every MLK Day, I mentally say a little prayer of thanks to Martin Luther King and I say to people who roll their eyes at all the inclusivness (not many people I know do this, but it has happened) that Black History is everyone’s history and this is what I will teach my daughter. Civil Rights for the decendents of the slaves in this country were brought about remarkably peacefully and we ALL are indebted to the leaders who appealed to people’s sense of decency and fairness instead of waging a generations long war with no winners like happens in many parts of the world.
And that’s my overall argument. Appeal to people’s sense of decency and fairplay, not guilt. Make people understand. And be fair to them while you are doing it. If I am constantly defending myself for being white, I won’t be able to hear you.
“Wow, I guess talk about race really touches some nerves.”
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Including your own, no doubt. Yeah, often it does touch nerves, but that’s not necessarily a bad thing imo. Sometimes that’s our built in defense mechanisms kicking in, sometimes they need to be addressed or challenged, and yeah, sometimes that doesn’t feel good. But is that “not feeling good” enough to check out of the dialogue altogether? I don’t think so, that’s just part of the process imo.
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Radfem, current racism and inequality are the tasks at hand. It goes without saying, or one hopes it does. And yes they are separate than past wrongs if you are looking for justice for past wrongs. There will never be justice for the slaves. Never, ever. The task at hand is education and a fair shake now for their descendents.
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Thanks for your response to my question. It might seem “without saying” to you, but are they really separate from the past? Take lynching for example, which was the center of the public apology by the Senate. FTMP, it’s in the past, FTMP, because James Byrd’s torture and murder at the hands of three White men in Texas shows that it’s not all in the past. And I met a guy who probably would have suffered that fate, if he hadn’t been able to escape and find a concerned person to help him.
But if it were, does that mean that its occurance in the past doesn’t impact on what happens today?
I’ve spoken with women and men who’ve been in towns either when lynchings occurred or afterwards. They talked about the sights, sounds, emotions, raw terror, smells, as if they were yesterday, or an hour ago, instead of years. Lynchings were not just targetted at one person, but all Black people, like terrorists might target a particular building like the WTC or the Pentagon, but in reality, all people in the country are the psychological target. The fear of the terrorism of the past is still felt today, and it still governs how much freedom people feel like they have today, and lynching has that impact still on many Black people. Lynching might be gone, but the fear it and other acts of terrorism causes is still there and still impacts people’s lives. Just because it doesn’t impact yours or mine, doesn’t mean it’s not there.
Separating the past and present into two separate realities, neatly divided along lines of whether they can be changed or not, is not even possible for everyone, though it might work well for you, is it supposed to be the rule that everyone is supposed to follow? Says who? It’s not fair to ask people who are still experiencing things from the past, in the present to just pretend it has no effect on them to make it easier on other people.
If a Black man is hanging from a tree as has happened in the South recently, it’s never thought, it might be a suicide, like if he were White. And even if it were a suicide, there’s still a lot of fear, from it that it’s something else.
There’s investigations into the incident to determine how he died, whether it was suicide or murder. If it’s a White man, it’s assumed to be suicide or in some cases, accidental death, never a lynching.
Does what happened in the past in the South(and other places) play a role in this, or is it all based on what’s in the present?
As for slavery, if you can’t understand the full impact it had on slaves in the past AND their descendants today, then I don’t think you can really educate others or do the “fair shake” thing b/c Whites tend to downplay or totally negate its affect and we expect everyone else to do like, so we feel better about ourselves and our vision of reality where we are heroes and not villains.
How do we educate our kids, when we don’t know the full truth ourselves? We can’t, or else we are propagating the same myths.
You can’t undo the past, but you don’t have to repeat it.
When the woman was quoted as saying how a paper and a pen can accomplish what lynching did in the past(bad paraphrase), what does that mean, if you don’t have an understanding of the past?
Why do many people associate lynching with capital punishment, meaning one has replaced the other? What are the links between the two practices?
These are just some examples. There are many others, I’m sure.
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Noone needs to call somone a racist if you are using terms like “white male paradigm”?. I mean, honestly. You don’t even really have to use catchphrases- if you are impugning someone’s decency because they resent being made to feel responsible for something they had nothing to do with, or my decency because I dare to consider their point of view, words like racist aren’t neccesary.
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So to avoid offending people, including Whites, or White men, we can’t discuss the white male paradym or talk about white-supremacism and its role in our country? We can’t actually talk about racism, in a way that challenges White privilage, with out calling or being accused of saying(without actually, saying) someone’s a racist. Well, that’s a convenient set of rules to AVOID any discussion of racism and its relationship to White privilage altogether. Certainly not without handholding, and where did we learn that it was our right to have our hands held, hmmm? But then again, Whites can walk away from race any time it gets uncomfortable for them. People of color can not.
Or it can be all about impugning someone’s right to feel resentful, rather than the issue at hand. Another convenient dodge. I know, because I’ve used this one myself too, more than once.
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I want you to understand something: I love Black History Month. Every MLK Day, I mentally say a little prayer of thanks to Martin Luther King and I say to people who roll their eyes at all the inclusivness (not many people I know do this, but it has happened) that Black History is everyone’s history and this is what I will teach my daughter. Civil Rights for the decendents of the slaves in this country were brought about remarkably peacefully and we ALL are indebted to the leaders who appealed to people’s sense of decency and fairness instead of waging a generations long war with no winners like happens in many parts of the world. ”
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I love holidays too. It’s a shame though b/c one month isn’t enough time to hold all of Black history, and one day isn’t big enough for MLK, jr.(never mind all the civil rights heros) and it’s a good day to reread my favorite work of his, which is Letter from a Birmingham Jail.
The Civil Rights era was a great one, but wasn’t all that peaceful and it lasted many generations. It was as hard fought as any war, lasted longer than most wars do, and created a lot of martyrs including children, six of whom were murdered in one 24-hour period in 1963. Not enough people responded out of common decency and fairness, nearly soon enough.
Even its leaders weren’t all peaceful, as there were different philosophies in how it should be done. And there’s been considerable backlash by um, the White male paradym since, so it’s still ongoing.
And how many civil rights leaders survived the 1950s, 60s? How many were killed? And who did the feds(often portrayed as heros in what passes for history and that particular odious Alan Parker film) spend most of their time spying on and harassing anyway?
What inspired me was the sheer acts of bravery, each day, even by the littlest children. Wow. Especially considering the era was so peaceful and all(not). I figure if the least we can do is maybe discuss or listen to a bit more than we’re personally comfortable with about racism and white privilage, even being called racist!!!!, then relatively speaking, that’s a small price to pay.
(it was not. who filled most of the jails early on during the sit-ins, anyway?)
A lot of great things happened, but there was terrorism, bombings, murders, throughout the entire era. All done to try to destroy the movement’s leaders, its resolve and to instill fear in anyone who might benefit from it. Another reminder from the past, that with agitation for rights, comes pain and fear and repercussions. That’s something that is still remembered today.
And that’s my overall argument. Appeal to people’s sense of decency and fairplay, not guilt. Make people understand. And be fair to them while you are doing it. If I am constantly defending myself for being white, I won’t be able to hear you
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decency, fair play, will all due respect, I’m not used to dealing with either in these parts, though the guilt’s not exactly there either. More like smug entitlement. Maybe it’s regional, but I doubt it. :-(
If we’re constantly ready to defend ourselves for being white, then we were never really listening to begin with.
Also to add about terrorism:
The form of terrorism that occurred in this country against African-Americans was often government sponsored and carried out by people in LE agencies.
I can’t imagine the heads exploding if we actualy called unifirmed American police officers terrorists, and the people directing them to be terrorist amsterminds like Zaqhari or Bin Ladin.
It’s a pretty thought that one day we might, as a nation, see there was little difference between La Qaeda and the KKK.
But these days, terroism=non-white people. Unless they’re environmentalists.
One obvious idea on the theme of “what can white people do to combat racism” that a few people mentioned – call other white people out on it. By this I mean actually confronting your asshole co-worker who makes racist jokes, or your family who tut-tut at the news whenever they hear crime reports that mention black perps and start laying on the stereotypes. To me this is analogous to the discussion we were having in the rape thread about how men can stop rape – if you are a member of the dominant group it is your responsibility to confront other members of that group when they are behaving inappropriately. You have a responsibility to do so for many reason, the biggest of which is that, sadly, merely by virtue of belonging to the dominant group your words carry more weight with the members of that group than the words of anyone else.
One point that needs to be made about Germany vs the US. The German government has for many years gone out of its way to make a point of publicly apologising for the Holocaust. There’s a memorial service every year. Germany as a whole has pretty much owned up to and accepted it’s guilt as a nation for what happened, and tried to make at least some symbolic gestures towards making amends. The theme of “never again” comes up constantly in German public discourse. Here we have some senators even now refusing to make a half-assed apology for fear of offending some of their constituents. The difference is striking. The contrast in the way that Germany responds to the neo-Nazi idiots who occasionally spring up in public and the way in which much of America still tolerates the public display of the Confederate flag is also quite revealing.
I just thought of a better way to phrase that after reading Sarah’s post. Which is – guilt by itself is useless. Guilt is passive, and can become passive-agressive – “please give me a cookie for not being a racist”. The solution to guilt is constructive action. Most racism is unconcious – people don’t realise that they’re being racist because they have internalised the paradigm. Pointing it out to them can be a VERY good thing, especially if the person doing the pointing is someone whose good opinion matters to them.
(I’ve been thinking about this a lot recently because I grew up in the Middle East, and the level of anti-Arab bigotry in the US over the last few years has risen by leaps and bounds. It’s been a real life case study in how racism works, how quickly it can spread. )
To offer some other perspectives to fight racism, I offer a reprint of a previous post where I wrote
Thoughts anyone?
BritGirl: Most racism is unconcious – people don’t realise that they’re being racist because they have internalised the paradigm.
If you go to less urbanized areas, you’ll find that the racism is more conscious that you might imagine. What happens is that openlyracist attitudes are understood to be both racist and the truth. This is why you can have things happen like the Oklahoma baseball coach thinking he was complimenting a black player by saying “There are honkies and white people, and there are niggers and black people. Dunigan is a good black kid. There’s no nigger in him.”
I’ve spent years arguing with people who have attitudes like this and sometimes I think the only hope is to send them out to the desert for 40 years. Unconscious prejudice is in many ways easier to deal with because you can keep hammering at how their attitudes betray the underlying prejudice but I have yet to find a good way to convince people who think that what they believe is unfortunate and unfair and completely true.
AndiF
Yep, I used to live in Texas, so I’ve been exposed to the very overt racism. I live in the Bay Area so I was thinking more of what I, personally could do in terms of the people I interact with all the time.
Even here though you don’t have to get too far out of the city for the blatant racism to kick in. My husband is Asian, and the first time we went a couple of hours drive north to a B&B and walked into the local bar I seriously thought that the locals were going to beat the crap out of both of us. There’s a special and distinctly nasty variety of racism reserved for the sight of white women with men of any other race.
I’m listening to NPR. Sandra Day O’Conner has resigned from the Supreme Court.
Nina Totenberg mentioned Alberto Gonzalez as a possible replacement.
Canada’s looking real good about now.