There are some cells in my uterus at the moment that aren’t usually there. I call these cells “my baby”, and spend much of my time planning the future that they may have, once they’ve finished developing into a human being. Other women, with similar cells, plan how to remove the cells as quickly and painlessly as possible.
A favourite pro-life argument is to seize gleefully on the similarities between the two groups of cells and demand how you can possibly justify the vastly different ways of treating them. If the fetus has no value, they ask, why do pregnant women often feel a close bond with their unborn babies? If it’s nothing more than a bunch of cells, why can a miscarriage be so devastating? Tempting as it is to dismiss this as so much irrelevance, it’s worth exploring the apparent contradiction for the insights it can offer into what pro-choice really means.
My baby is not yet a human being. Even with special care, it is very unlikely to be capable of surviving on its own if it were removed from my body. It needs my bloodstream and my uterus to have even a chance of becoming a human being. Although it’s genetically distinct from me, it doesn’t seem unreasonable to view it as a part of my body. A part that could, given the right conditions, become a separate person, but until that happens a part of me.
We all see our bodies differently, and we all give different values to different parts. Some people welcome body hair because of the cultural value it has; others remove it for much the same reasons. A transsexual man could be delighted at the removal of his breasts; a woman with breast cancer is more likely to feel mutilated. The same body parts, but very different reactions.
The cells inside the uterus are just another example. I give mine a very high value and watch their development with delight; other women give theirs a low value and can’t wait to be rid of them. The belief that we both have the right to assign value to our own bodies for ourselves is the essence of being pro-choice. If a woman places a high value on her fetus, removing it against her will is just as unacceptable as forcing a woman to retain, against her will, a fetus she gives a low value to.
This is partly why miscarriage can be so devastating. A woman who anticipates with joy the time when her fetus becomes a fully-fledged human being invests those cells with a great deal of value. If they are destroyed, she’s lost a part of herself that she loved and welcomed, and will naturally feel a degree of grief. The pain could well be made worse by the attitude that women are walking incubators, but that’s another question entirely.
The contradiction turns out to be no contradiction at all. I care passionately about my baby; every sign of movement brings me a little extra joy. But it wouldn’t bring joy to every woman, and those for whom it would mean nothing but discomfort should be able to make a different choice.
Your point about the ovum and sperm was so predictable that I, in fact, predicted it.
Too bad you didn’t or couldn’t address it then but chose to dismiss it instead. Lacking other data I must assume that you simply know that you have no answer and are hoping that being condescending and dismissive will do instead.
Yes, but amba said that there is no living human without relationship.
No, she didn’t. She said there is no human LIFE without relationship. The hermit started in a mother. Without that relationship, no hermit.
She said there is no human LIFE without relationship.
I’m not sure that I understand your distinction. If there is no human life without relationship then a person without any relationships should be either not alive or not human. S/he may have had human life in the past but if s/he has really managed to cut all human relationships off then s/he presumably now no longer has human life.
It’s an interesting philosophical question-can we be human without relationships to other humans-but not really a good one to base the definiton of human life on. To give an immediate counterexample: a brain dead person being kept “alive” on life support has a large number of human relationships involved, but is still legally and morally dead as a dodo.
Where did I say that yours was an argument for criminalization?
ETA: As far as I can tell I said that your argument was that we shouldn’t argue for late term abortion because the fetus looks way more human then and therefore we’d make people uncomfortable.
I also said that your argument about a “backwards slide” morally and evolutionarily is absurd.
I also said that we’ve heard your arguments and they haven’t been effective before, so why should they be now?
And aren’t you being a little bit dishonest when you say that you are not arguing for criminalization? Are you saying that you don’t want to restrict late term abortion? If so, you really do need to make your position clearer.
Life in the broader sense, Dianne, not in the sense of a specific individual at a later point in their temporal duration on the planet. Without the relationship, the life wouldn’t have existed. The relationship is not permanent, that we can perceive anyway, but its eventual dissolution and change does not undo its original existence.
Regretting a choice you made != discouraging the choice for others.
Simple Truth:
Women don’t need other women to tell them whether a choice is worthwhile or regrettable, although people usually appreciate hearing how a particular decision affected others in the same situation. Women (and all people) need only a lot of information that is based on factual data. To make a solid decision we all need unbiased and factual information. We need to know all the ramifications of a choice we are considering. This is a necessity for any good decisionmaking in any aspect of life.
The simple truth is that some women profoundly regret their choice to abort. Other women do not. These are the facts from women. Then, there are facts from the procedure itself. Namely, the facts about what it is they are aborting and the ramifications on that human it terminates.
One of my issues with abortion providers and abortion advocates are the lies of omission. http://fetalfactsdotnet.wordpress.com/category/our-bodies-our-sevles/ Why wouldn’t the authors include images and desciptions of unborn humans at various stages of development so women could see the human they terminating? Why would they have an illustration of a suction abortion with a 12 week sized uterus and then omit the fetus from the illustration altogether? Is the fetus invisible at 12 weeks? Hah! I’m sorry, but that is a lie of omission. Not ONE image or description. This I cannot understand. Info people. Women need good solid information to make an informed choice. What do they have to hide?
The argument that fetus porn is the reason not to abort is undeserving of more of a response than this:
I don’t understand for a moment why sex education classes don’t include video of people fucking.
sara: What’s your definition of a “human” as in “the human it terminates”? You seem to be using a rolling definition which changes based on your mood at the moment and that really won’t do for a legal or medical definition.
Furthermore, the consensus is that there are no adverse mental health consequences of abortion. Most women simply don’t regret having an abortion or suffer ill consequences from abortion. Nor does viewing the products of conception make women regret their choice. Not viewing a fuzzy picture, which, as Robert demonstrated, most people can’t read, but seeing the actual fetuses, doesn’t impress the average woman that they’ve killed a baby. Give it up and get another argument.
I don’t understand for a moment why abortion education doesn’t include photos of the bodies of women who died in childbirth.
—Myca
Yeah, Myca, that’s a better analogy. The pron thing just captured me & I went with it.
Myca,
Well, in fact Our Bodies, Our Selves does that.
But, as I mentioned (and you so notably ignored) it does NOT have even one image or description of any fetus- at all whatsoever. Not one embryo or fetus in any stage of development. Not one embryo or fetus in the womb, alive and growing. Not one embryo or fetus out of the womb- terminated.
NOT EVEN ONE.
Hmmm…. makes ya wonder…
Maybe Dr. Haskell or Dr. Hern would like to recount for women how they invented and how to do a D&X abortion? Now, there is some feel good reading!
Again, what do they have to hide??
Diane,
I don’t know.. what do you think a human is… errr… I mean “product of conception”?
sara,
Our Bodies Ourselves has a photo of a woman who died from an illegal abortion, not someone who died in childbirth.
And I don’t have my copy handy, but I recall them having quite a bit of information about pregnancy, how to have a healthy pregnancy and what you need to know about childbirth options. So … I can’t speak to whether there are actual pictures of actual fetal development (that are widely available all over the place) in Our Bodies Ourselves, but it’s not like it doesn’t talk about the fact that pregnancies that continue uninterrupted usually result in a baby. And … it’s not like women who have abortions don’t know that pregnancies that continue uninterrupted usually result in a baby. That’s why they’re having an abortion.
When you first revived this thread, I was mildly sympathetic to the point I thought you were trying to make, but at this point, you’re going all over the place and I think you’re just a boring concern troll.
Chingona,
Yes, you are correct. The photo is of a botched abortion, you are right. Nonetheless, the fact remains that there are zero illustrations or descriptions of what a human is like prior to the magical moment it is delivered it’s rights- when he or she is born. And I know and will remind you that the entire chapter on pregancy actually mentions nothing of fetal development at all. The entire chapter discusses how pregnancy impacts the woman only (her leg cramps, her food cravings, etc). Fetal information is non-existant in that book. Abortion terminates the “thing” they mention nothing about. And it terminates the “thing” they left out in their suction abortion illustration. I guess they really do believe a developing human fetus is invisible. That’s not what I saw in my lamaze classes, I can tell you that. Oh, but wait, wanted unborn humans are real & visible. Unwanted humans… not so much.
Please note: there is a big difference between knowing you give birth to a “baby” and what that baby is like at various stages of contemplating ending his or her life. Please don’t pretend like this is not a big issue to many, many women who want to know, “does it feel pain?”
I am not atemping to offend anyone. As pro-choicers will state: no one likes abortion. It’s in everyone’s best interest to lower abortion rates. My stance: women absolutely must know about the development of the life they are contemplating ending. It is unjust to not give the facts to women. To spare one woman a lifetime of regret and the one child she wanted afterall, would be worth the one illustration or description left out of that book. Don’t believe there are many, many women who regret their choice to abort? Think again. And lastly, why are women not given more resouces so we aren’t forced to have to choose abortion? If men were able to get pregnant there would be drastically better education, birth control, etc.
Given how very widely available these images and that information is, I have to conclude that a woman who doesn’t know about it didn’t seek it out. At a certain point, a grown-ass adult has to be responsible for her own decisions, including what information she sought out prior to making those decisions.
Who, exactly, is denying women access to information that is all over the place?
I have absolutely no doubt there are women who regret their abortions. I also have absolutely no doubt there are women who regret carrying to term. But that’s how life works. You make the decisions that you make with the information and the values that you have at the time, and then you live with the consequences.
Why would they have an illustration of a suction abortion with a 12 week sized uterus and then omit the fetus from the illustration altogether?
I also find it kind of suspicious that you start out worried about an elective abortion at 23 weeks, and now you’re talking about the 12-week fetus. You know, the heart beat starts at 5 or 6 weeks.
Hey Sara, I deeply respect your commitment to making sure that all women have access to all of the information about the facts and risks of pregnancy and abortion.
I notice that you apparently run a website opposing abortion.
You have called out the content of ‘Our Bodies, Ourselves,’ for providing incomplete information to women. Since I’m sure you would not wish to make the same mistake, I call upon you here and now to include on your website:
1) a photo of a woman dead from a botched abortion
2) a photo of a woman dead from carrying a child to term
I am sure that you would agree that it is important that women have all of the information they need to freely make these choices, and this would be something you could do to help make that a reality.
As I am certain that you are arguing in good faith, are in no way a hypocrite, and are willing to do yourself what you demand of others, I look forward to seeing your site updated soon.
If you have any difficulty finding photographs, I’d be happy to help. It shouldn’t be too hard to find, though. I’d try looking pre-1973.
—Myca
I don’t know.. what do you think a human is… errr… I mean “product of conception”?
Sara, are you proposing that ALL products of conception are human?
Myca: Good suggestions, but incomplete. I think Sara would also need to include scholarly articles about the psychological harm of placing a baby for adoption, a complete description of the risks of childbirth, and perhaps testimonials from women who regret their decision to complete their pregnancies. In the interest of fairness, which I’m sure she’s dedicated to.
Myca and Diane,
I appreciate your heartfelt suggests and you have again shown your insistence on ignoring and denying the visibility and life of the unborn human. Good going. I know the tactic of the pro-choice industry (which you seem to adopt): keep up the denial of the life and very existence of the fetus (zygote, embryo, fetus) long enough and then hopefully most people will perhaps forget that little entity even exists.
Lets be clear about it: abortion takes away a life that has begun. Once again, women need all the information about the life they are considering having taken. Even Marianne Williamson, a pro-choicer, states that very explicit and concrete “speed bumps” be inserted into the education for women who are considering abortion. It is not an easy or light decision to make.
Please don’t belittle women and suggest they don’t really need all the facts: as you say: if they aren’t “grown ass” enough to know what a developing human looks like in utero. I understand you don’t believe unborn humans have as much value as you and me, but come on- why would you take away the data and research of fetal life so women can’t make up their own minds on that?
You want me to add certain photos to my site? Okay, why don’t you add pictures of aborted unborn babies to yours, also? Dr. Haskel has some interesting photos of the way her performs his partial birth abortions… and the second trimester D&E would also contain interesting photos… Your site should be a real winner. Or the women who have lost their very life for choosing abortion. Or a description of one of many women who spend their lives filled with depression and regret for aborting. I could offer you many links for any of these.
Why do you insist on being rude here? Why can’t we all insist on better options & help for women BEFORE getting pregnant, AFTER women are pregnant, and AFTER baby is born? Why not work to reduce abortion? I suggest we work to provide detailed information about fetal life and development- so the women who may regret their choice to abort; don’t even make the choice to begin with and our society begins to account for the reality of unborn humans aren’t invisible.
I am not a moderator, but I think it’s time we let this discussion die a peaceful death. Sara, now Sara Elizabeth, has been beating her dead horse over the course of 70 some odd comments, since she re-entered the conversation at #147 or so, and while there have been some interesting ideas that started to emerge from what was being said, including some of the things she started to say…well, I am going to resist all the ironic metaphors that come to mind. I just think it’s time to stop.
Sara Elizabeth: While your perseverance is appreciated — we do like a good show! — alas, it’s time to darken the theater, and let the actors go home. It’s metaphorically late, madame, and the champagne in your slipper is stale.
Please don’t post any more on Alas, good luck with your future endeavors, have fun with your fetus porn, and so on.
We don’t talk about this much in this age of absolutes, but the way a woman feels about an abortion often has a lot to do with the circumstances, and the man involved. The way she feels about it also may change with time, or not. Some women, when they have children, realize that the pregnancy they aborted was also a child, and feel pain about it. Others realize that if they had had that child, they would not have had the children they now have and love.
Too, in biology there is something called sexual selection. When a woman has an abortion she is, among other things, judging the father, and judging that she does not want to have his child. We understand now that the genetic lottery is full of wild cards, and nurture is as complex as nature, and a father who’s a no-goodnik or even a rapist can father a perfectly wonderful child. But the more primitive or instinctive response is to snuff out the genes of a father you find wanting, and one can see that in a crude way that would have been effective. If nothing else, it would have encouraged males, genetically and socially, to make an effort to offer something more than a brief good time to the potential mother of their offspring.
I regretted my abortion in part because the context in which I got pregnant argued very strongly in favor of having the child. He would also have been my only child.
This doesn’t contradict my belief that it is far better to strenuously avoid unwanted pregnancy and, if it occurs anyway, to prefer another option to abortion. Abortion is dehumanizing to all concerned, and if you’re unaware that it is you’ve already been dehumanized.
‘Too, in biology there is something called sexual selection. When a woman has an abortion she is, among other things, judging the father, and judging that she does not want to have his child. We understand now that the genetic lottery is full of wild cards, and nurture is as complex as nature, and a father who’s a no-goodnik or even a rapist can father a perfectly wonderful child. But the more primitive or instinctive response is to snuff out the genes of a father you find wanting, and one can see that in a crude way that would have been effective. If nothing else, it would have encouraged males, genetically and socially, to make an effort to offer something more than a brief good time to the potential mother of their offspring.’
god, i hate it when people misrepresent evolutionary concepts they don’t understand.
Oh, come on now, Mandolin. I am now entirely convinced about the bad stuff about abortion. An evo-psych just-so story is potent shit. As a bonus, the comment overcomes the absolutism of this age – especially that last line.
I regretted my abortion
With all due respect, so what? At one point in my life I deeply regretted having never conceived a child with my then-boyfriend. Does that mean that every woman should get pregnant by every man she is attracted to because she might later regret having missed the opportunity?
Abortion is dehumanizing to all concerned, and if you’re unaware that it is you’ve already been dehumanized.
So in your world unicellular parasites are human and those who disagree with you are not. Nice. Exactly the sort of thinking that allows the “pro-life” movement to bomb clinics and shoot doctors without feeling the slightest remorse.
Time to go away and leave you guys happy in your echo chamber.
Unsubscribing, so feel free to libel and slander me in my absence.
Disagreeing with you ≠ libel and slander.
Or actually? You know what?
Fine. It totally does, and we’re all meanies who stomp puppies and hate babies.
Whatever. Christ.
—Myca
My wife is pregnant!
Hey, how’d you get a not-equals symbol to print?
It comes with being liberal.
Actually, it comes with googling ‘does not equal’ and cutting and pasting.
I’m just that anal.
—Myca
Congratulations! How wonderful for you both!
—Myca
Congratulations, Bonnie!
It comes with being liberal…Actually, it comes with googling ‘does not equal’ and cutting and pasting.
Thanks. Wonder how they input it directly.
(I assume that YOU have to cut and paste, because as a liberal all inequality is evil and if you were to directly type it in, Al Gore would come around to your house and smash up all your carbon-intensive possessions.)
Thanks, Mandolin and Myca!
:D
As a pragmatic liberal in the tradition of John Dewey and William James, I just do what works, without becoming locked into a pre-existent ideology that claims to dogmatically teach the ‘one true path’ for getting the symbol.
—Myca
Robert, I will liberally impart the knowledge that you input special characters directly by using character entities which are entered with & + a value + ;. To get not equal, type & #8800 ; without the spaces and get ≠
Full list of character entities here
Hi, everyone! I’m a big hypocrite who makes a lot of disingenuous noise about how women need ‘all the information,’ but I don’t actually want then to have any information other than what I decide they’re allowed to see, because my actual goal is control of women’s bodies and choices!
Also, I don’t really understand what a ‘banning’ is, apparently.