I can’t even think of anything to say. From OutRage!:
Two gay teenagers were publicly executed in Iran on 19 July 2005 for the ‘crime’ of homosexuality. […]
Iran enforces Islamic Sharia law, which dictates the death penalty for gay sex.
One youth was aged 18 and the other was a minor under the age of 18. They were only identified by their initials, M.A. and A.M.
They admitted to having gay sex (probably under torture) but claimed in their defence that most young boys had sex with each other and that they were not aware that homosexuality was punishable by death.
Prior to their execution, the teenagers were held in prison for 14 months and severely beaten with 228 lashes.
Their length of detention suggests that they committed the so-called offences more than a year earlier, when they were possibly around the age of 16.
Under the Iranian penal code, girls as young as nine and boys as young as 15 can be hanged.
Three other young gay Iranians are being hunted by the police, but they have gone into hiding and cannot be found. If caught, they will also face execution.
Direland has the best article on this I’ve read. This atrocity has been getting more attention than previous ridiculous Iranian execution of teens, possibly because the photos (which you can see at Direland) are so vivid.
Oh, and they have nuclear weapons. But remember, Iraq *might* have had WMDs, and that was more important than Bush totaly dropping the ball on Iran’s near complete nuclear program.
Iran’s view of gays and lesbians sounds like Bush’s (and his Dem apologists’) ultimate wet dream. Why would he want to bomb them when he could invite their clerics over here to “edjamacate” us all as to proper ways of dealing with deviants ?
I posted this on my blog as part of a rant last night when I heard about this, but I might as well put it here too, since it echoes alsis’ wonderful point above …
to anyone that honestly thinks “thank goodness we live in a country where this wouldn’t happen” take a look at the ‘christian’ right … those arseholes would love nothing more than to be able to do the same to us, regardless of the pathetic words they couch it in.
There is no real difference.
The US fundies here want to go back to a time where it was perfectly okay to lock away gays and lesbians, whether it be in prisons (by reinstating anti-sodomy legislation) where we will be killed, or in psychiatric institutions (they are STILL complaining about us being taken out of the DSM) where we get ‘treated’ (read electro-shock, drugs and ‘aversion’ therapy and if you don’t think death doesn’t result ultimately from those either then I have some history texts you really need to read), just take a look at that case in Tennessee where the ‘counsellor’ said he would rather his teenage charges committed suicide than be gay.
However, it’s also more than that.
Both the Mullahs of Iran and the fundamentalist hate-mongers here in the states are about creating/perpetuating a socio-cultural milieu whereby dehumanisation, and hence violence (in whatever form) is legitimated against gays and lesbians (and bi’s and trans-peeps).
This is why they oppose anti-discrimination legislation, why they oppose the recognition of same-sex unions, why they oppose me simply being able to hold my girlfriend’s hand in public. Because such expressions of tolerance and acceptance do affect the socio-cultural space, creating an atmosphere where the subjectification of a particular group, and hence their raising above such group heirachically, no longer becomes possible.
The acts of violence against gays,lesbian, bi’s, and transgendered people are not divorced from the acts, behaviour and language of those that have positions of social validity in our culture. Witness the large increase in anti-gay hate-crimes since the arrival of the Bush administration if you want a real-world example of such.
But, of course, such community and societal leaders express their disapproval of such acts, but then go straight on ahead perpetuating the milieu that allowed them to occur in the first place. And of course deny their own responsiblity.
I’m going with something a fellow blogger said on this one too, the logical end of following a ‘biblical’ approach to gays and lesbians is putting us to death (I think it’s by stoning).
There is no difference.
PS
OutRage also has comment on the new Iranian line that the boys were ‘actually’ executed for molesting a 13 year old boy.
Ah, of course, the “think of the children!” defense.
According to OutRage (and I agree) this is simply a smokescreen to cover up the inhuman barbarism of executing two gay boys, now that this time the eyes of the world are actually on them for this.
So, not only do they want to execute us, but hey, lets turn us into monsters at the same time … sound familiar?
Is there actual proof that these boys were gay? If they truly believed that sex with other boys was normal in the face of larger and more public restrictions on women’s bodies, then this story (or more precisely the subtext) is about the a”appropriate” use of women’s bodies and the severe punishment when men deviate from that use.
Sarah, there is a difference. If you don’t see it, you don’t see it, and I can’t convince you, but there is a difference between being discriminated against and being hung.
Susan –
Oiy, of COURSE there is a difference between being discriminated against and being hung.
However, that was not what my point was about. It was about the motivations of those that would do such a thing and the social environment that is created. Therein lies the lack of difference.
Sarah, there is a difference. If you don’t see it, you don’t see it, and I can’t convince you, but there is a difference between being discriminated against and being hung.
Like Sarah just said, the two are the results of the exact same motivation, and pretty much exist on a continuum. There’s a difference between discrimination and the acts of hanging/imprisonment, but as I see it, there’s little difference in the types of people who would engage in such behaviour (beyond what they can get away with, and possibly how squeamish they are). If anti-gay fundamentalists weren’t kept in check by laws and the opinions of the majority of the population, they would probably become indistinguishable from their Middle-Eastern counterparts.
Fundies already see gay/bi/trans people as evil, sinful and occasionally even subhuman, and they’re willing to go out of their way to make life miserable for them. The logical conclusion to such ideas is…well, this Iran situation.
Sarah writes that recognition of same-sex marraiges and other “expressions of tolerance and acceptance do affect the socio-cultural space, creating an atmosphere where the subjectification of a particular group, and hence their raising above such group heirachically, no longer becomes possible.”
It’s nice to see it acknowledged that these things affect the culture. Usually we get the “how does my marraige affect you?” line. It’s also good that the nogotiating line has been moved back to “please don’t hang us”. It hopefully reminds you all that tolerance is a pretty good thing, and maybe you will remember how good you have it and stop this crazy insistance on full equality, which carries with it demands for safe and affordable reproduction technology for gays and totally disrespects the extra responsibilities of male-female couples. Because otherwise, I think that the backlash to crazy and offensive demands might be pretty bad.
And, remember back when the NYTimes was pushing for the war in Afghanistan? They went along with it back then because there were so many feminists and liberals who wanted to get the Taliban because they were anti-gay and anti-feminist. The muslims don’t think we are there for oil or to stop terrorists, they think we are there because we are evil and anti-family, anti-Islam, and we want to impose gay rights on them. So they react with things like this.
Fundies see everyone as sinful and evil, silly!
It hopefully reminds you all that tolerance is a pretty good thing, and maybe you will remember how good you have it and stop this crazy insistance on full equality…
How right you are! Damn it, the back of the bus should be good enough for you. You ungrateful others, you! How dare you demand, bum, bum, BUM…. equality!
You, sir, are one sick fuck.
(And, honestly, that is holding myself back.)
It’s also good that the nogotiating line has been moved back to “please don’t hang us”.
So it’s good that people should have to plead not to be hung just because they engage in consensual sex with a member of their own gender? How is that in any way good?
It hopefully reminds you all that tolerance is a pretty good thing, and maybe you will remember how good you have it and stop this crazy insistance on full equality,
You don’t seem all that tolerant. You seem like a bigot with a bizarre obsession with hypothetical uses of cloning technology.
Fundies see everyone as sinful and evil, silly!
Indeed they do, and they would gladly persecute feminists, pro-choicers, atheists, Muslims, Hindus, even Catholics, etc, as well.
Woah, John, I can’t even imagine how anyone but an insanely warped bigot would see what I wrote as an example of something to be avoided. Your argument is mindboggling. You’re arguing against same-sex marriage on the basis that a good thing might effect the society in which you live.
The thing you don’t get is that in creating an environment of tolerance and acceptance just doesn’t work for one minority group, it works for all minority groups, allowing each to live side by side and believe what they want and not infringe on each other’s rights; ie tolerance. Where one group is dehumanised, no group is safe.
Your will is not just the imposition of your world-view on everyone else, including those that disagree with you, but also wanting to ensure your own pre-eminence above everyone else that may differ from you. You honestly seem to think we should be ‘happy’ being less than equal.
I could devolve into a large amount of name calling here, which I would feel is highly justified and accurate, but I won’t. What you propose is horrible, inhuman, and ultimately shows how insanely similar your rhetoric really is to that of those that committed this insanity against these teenagers.
I’m seriously with Kim (from the other thread), Jake and the Major General here.
yes, thank you for not hanging me (or cutting me in half or pushing me off a cliff or stoning me.. the other types of execution for gays in iran)….
Oh thank you thank you, i’ll just sit here on the back of the bus and eat the crumbs i am so unworthy of and sing praises to those who discriminate against me because at least they aren’t killing me.
i’m sure you might have told the blacks in the first half of the 20th century’ to be thankful they aren’t slaves… and then kicked them to the back of the bus…
Gee, thank you Massa, for not hanging us all. How fucking magnanimous of you.
He’s going to go whine about about those ebil feminazis now at some MRA board.
I need a bookie on speed dial, I swear. If I were a betting woman, I’d be a millionaire with the antics these guys pull.
I’ll take that bet. I thnk he’s going to go coo-coo over some nonexistant future technology and use that as a reason to argue against same sex marriage.
John Howard has got to be speaking satirically.
Hasn’t he?
If I wasn’t already familiar with his postings from other sites, Nick, I’d agree with you.
There’s a difference between being discriminated against and being hanged? Really?
I think James Byrd of Jennings, Texas might disagree with you on that one.
And, since I’m still alive, I’ll go ahead and disagree with you, too.
Does anyone believe that the vast majority of Christians, and other faiths (and GW for that matter) want to see people hung for their sexual orientation? It seems a bit over the top. (And I don’t care for the man’s decisions or his politics.) Blessings.
Rock – vast majority? Maybe not. The vast majority of Muslims I speak to online (both here in the USA and overseas) are appalled by this action, but are helpless to do anything about it, with theocrats in control of their countries… the same way that the public-fear-riding theocrats of this nation would be more than happy to apply progressively-worse laws against “sinners” until we reach similar penalties, ourselves. In our culture, we’re not as quick to execute– culture of “life” and all that, so we’d just start locking up our gays, or sending them away to be “re-educated.” Or maybe put in camps so we fags don’t spread AIDS to the population … or any of a hundred other scenarios that are similar. Think I’m using hyperbole? Then take a look at some of the statements already being made by our own religious leaders over the past couple of decades.
So you ask me what I think Christians want to do to people over their sexual orientation? I don’t know– but I have a pretty good idea. I’d just like Christians to leave people the hell alone over their sexual orientation. Or their gender identity. Or their ethnicity. Or their skin color. Or whatthehelleveritisthisweek.
The following comments are from an american right-wing conservative blog, they should wake you up to smell the stale coffe brewing in the U.S.; Goes to show what freedom loving and beleivers in democracy these right wingers are. They love Islamic justice so much they should move there.
Ah just breaks my heart, they should hang them everyday for a month :whistle:
enabler
Sorry…No tears here…
2 less potential terrorists to worry about…
are there links to the pics anywhere?
SnowWolf
Where can I buy stock in rope?
furrpiece
If they were guilty, then fine. Somehow I don’t put a lot of stock in the legitimacy of the Iranian judicial system.
Canucklehead
I have no problem with executing the mentally ill. But really, I kind of have my doubts on whether these boys were actually guilty.
Slappy White
“There is no real difference.”
Funny, I bet Iranian gay teens can see a real difference.
Pingback: Lysis
Funny, I bet Iranian gay teens can see a real difference.
*pounds her own head against a wall, repeatedly*
Okay, I’ve said it before in this thread, and I’ll say it again … that was not what my point was about. It was about the motivations of those that would do such a thing and the social environment that is created. Therein lies the lack of difference.
Sarah: don’t even worry about it. If people actually read the comments they would know exactly what you meant. And if people actually read your post and, you know, THOUGHT about it, they would know exactly what you meant.
For now on, just say “learn to fucking read you lazy git” in response to anyone who posts an idiotic response to the statement “There’s no difference”.
>>Okay, I’ve said it before in this thread, and I’ll say it again … that was not what my point was about. It was about the motivations of those that would do such a thing and the social environment that is created. Therein lies the lack of difference. >>
I’m sure Lilith is familiar with the idea of a continuum of behaviors arising from the same underlying hateful beliefs.
piny, then why the bloody dumbarse question? (taking Sydney’s advice here)
opps, that should read ‘comment’, not ‘question’ (that’ll teach me to type while thinking of lunch)
Because Lilith is a compulsive contrarian who can’t ever resist calling other people out on the slightest hint of privilege, even when those people are (for example) complaining about the enormous privilege of distancing oneself from the repercussions of one’s hatred.
That’s just a guess, mind.
THE IRANIAN GOVERNMENT ARE A DISGRACE TO THE WORLD AND AN INSULT TO MAN.
The two executions of these youths for being ‘gay’ is a crime against humanity
Thankfully, the world has condemned their actions and Diplomatic relations between the rest of the world and Iran could soon be in tatters
Campaigning does work, Please all keep it up
Ah, gotcha piny … that does make sense, because it seemed strange initially for you to be seemingly defending a comment like the above :)
Actually, please don’t do that, on threads started by me – I’d prefer people attempt to remain polite in their direct responses to other “Alas” posters, even when responding to things they don’t agree with.
(Of course, that’s just me. I don’t claim that there’s any reason for you to pay attention to my preferences when looking at threads started by other folks.)
No Amp, you’re right. This is your space and I apologize.
Sarah perhaps you should just say “i’m not going to answer that on the grounds that I already did. See coment #13”.
Pingback: Lysis
Tich..Tich..Tich…. All preposterous… Execution and killing of one own species, because of being different just proves that man is doing whatever he could to be GOD… For example, all these fundies, of whatever religion, whether Christianity or Islam, are classic examples of proving to the world that they are at par with God, which I for one totally disagree, so as with many of you. Life is full of colour, God created all these colours, Islam as well as Christianity celebrates this differences in Nature, why don’t they start accepting that Homosexuality is not a sin, nor a disorder but a different nature which some of us are (un) fortunate to be born with. CELEBRATE LIFE AS IT IS… GAY, STRAIGHT OR CONFUSED… Join our hands together and put, not a stop on these people, but a harsh control on them… I somewhat have a strong feeling that fundies put out these strange and inhumane measures on people with a difference just to suppress their own tendencies to commit the same, as they would called, crimes. I know of an Imam in Pakistan, who touches young boys while teaching in the madrasa, and some of these young boys will often engage with him in sexual acts. Later, he will condemn it in front of everyone in the mosque of such acts as haram. See how hypocritical people can be…. This is nothing; in fact this is just the tip of the Iceberg. Look at the thousands of Catholic priest who are charged with child molestation in the recent past. All Fundies are deviant people who themselves need to see a shrink… We can live without them.
I have friends in Iran, who give me first hand information of what is happening there. I often feel sorry for them… I often offered to help them, unfortunately they cordially decline it, as I would have done out of Love for my own fatherland. I have three gay friends, one from Shiraz, another from the capital Tehran and the other from Esfahan. I feared for their security, but with pride they all told me that If death has to happen it will happen… no matter what… we will all go down someday. I pray for them, for their well being, and I hope that one day, they and along with my other Persian friends will Live a Life they often dream of.
People, there is no point in just sitting around and discuss these issues. Nothing is going to come out by you sitting there and reading all this… Yes it is good to be informed, but please for the Love of God, and for Man Kind, let us all stop thinking and talking… LET US ACT…
Pingback: Lysis
What a terrible thing to have to witness! Sickening really! May God (Allah) in all His Compassion right this horrible travesty of jusice. And for you right wingers out there, may your shoes be too small for your feet.
I dont think we need worry about ‘BILD’ lysis,
There are millions of people from all walks of life condemning Iran for there crimes, I notice that the Press worldwide have now taken up the story,
It is bad enough to have to put up with the nonsense coming from bigots on the Right, some of who venture here sometimes (John Howard, Op-Ed, On Lawn). But it is specially frustrating when the pro-gay side makes nonsense statements that advance their bigotted arguments. Referring to these two boys who were executed as “gay” does such a thing. These boys could have been gay, we don’t know. Most likely, though, they were not. At that age, boys often fool around with each other, even if they’re straight. In prison, heterosexual males have sex with each other. They are not “gay” because of it. By labelling these boys “gay,” we are promoting the lie that gay-equals-sex and that sex is all there is to being gay. The bigots want to define us by the sex we have. Let’s not help them along.
this is the reality of being a lesbian outside of the Western World – it’s a death sentence, a life in hiding, being ostracised, condemned, hated, stoned, hung.
Thanks for posting this, but these atrocities are worldwide and millions go undocumented. What is done to gays physically in some countries is done to them here also. The US gov’t doesn’t recognize gays as having representation by and protection under federal law. Only some states provide equal and equitable rights to gays. We watch these foreign crimes against humanity and forget they’re happening right here at home as well. Great blog.
Pingback: The Mahablog » Responsibility