In a previous post, I talked about how most Whites need to develop greater empathy for people of color. I also discussed a concept called approximating experiences, which is one way Whites can develop more empathetic orientations. Feagin and Vera say that that approximating experiences help Whites grasp what it is like to be the victim of racial discrimination. Citing a study by Tiffany Hogan and Julie Netzger, they say that approximating experiences most often come from three sources: relying on stories that people of color tell about their experiences, relying on general humanistic values, and relying on aspects of their own oppression. In the last case they note that White women who experienced multiple forms of discrimination (such as being a woman and being lesbian or Jewish) are more likely to develop empathetic orientations toward people of color. I think my personal story is useful at showing how Whites can challenge their own racism through approximating experiences and develop greater empathy.
I had my first approximating experiences in high school. My views started from a humanistic orientation…I grew up around all Whites, and my parents had taught me that everybody should be treated fairly. Although they didn’t say a lot about racism, I remember them repeatedly telling me that you do not treat people bad because they are different from you. I remember repeatedly hearing my classmates make derogatory comments about African Americans. I very specifically remember being bothered by racist comments, and I repeatedly admonishing my classmates not to use the n-word.
My outspoken views on racism did not endear me to my classmates. In fact, I was subjected to ridicule and occasional threats of violence. I was routinely called “nigger lover,” so many times that I do not remember most of them. In my art class during my sophomore year one of my classmates Brian, called me “nigger lover” almost everyday. See while we worked on our art projects, we talked social issues and politics. When I challenged my classmates, Brian as the ring leader and on occasion his buddies would say this to me in front of the entire class including the teacher, who had asked him to stop but never enforced any consequences. Frankly, I had no idea how to respond to comments like this because people like Brian don’t like common sense arguments. They like bullying. Eventually I came up with the most creative response I could. I would say, “I’m not a nigger lover because I don’t like you.” I was 16 and this was the best response I could muster to shut him up…all of the reasonable arguments about the golden rule, respecting your fellow man, and so on didn’t work.
One of the other incidents I remember happened when I was a junior. In this case two or the more popular girls in my school Mindy and Emily were taunting me in class. These girls were your typical means girls (as depicted in the movie LOL!). I have no idea why they were picking on me, but it wasn’t the first time and I was fed up. The teacher of this class was habitually late and played the popularity game, allowing these girls to do what they wanted. I didn’t expect any support from her or any other of my classmates, so I turned to them and yelled, “Bitch you need to shut the fuck up.” They laughed and the rest of the class got quiet. I hoped this would be it, but later that day when I went to my locker I had a note put inside my locker that said, “You’re a niger lover and a horsefucker.” I just looked at the note and truly was scared. I was afraid of what they could have taken from my locker or what may happen to me as I walked down the hall. The whole time my classmates, all of whom were White, were directing racial slurs at me (and of course, all African Americans albeit indirectly). I didn’t tell the principal, my teachers, my parents, or anyone. The primary reason I did say much about almost all of these incidents was simple…I knew that they wouldn’t do anything about it. I knew that they were indifferent to racial slurs and that they didn’t understand the severity of it. I knew the Whites who I lived and worked with were not bothered by racial slurs or racism. I did occasionally have people who agreed with me, but it was almost always a brief “I agree with you” when no one else was around to hear it. For me personally, it was these experiences that helped my to feel some empathy towards people of color. I am by no means saying I get everything. I just know what I felt like when these things were directed at me. I knew the fear, the powerlessness, the exasperation, and the anger that racism was creating in me. Because of these experiences (and others), I dedicated myself to fighting racism.
In my later years of high school and in college, my approximating experiences came from listening to my friends and classmates who had personal experiences with racism. I was able to get a better understand of racism from Black professors like my undergraduate mentor Dr. Lewis. I learned about Black nationalism from two friends who were in the Nation of Islam, and I probably learned the most from my friendship with Jennifer. Jennifer and I didn’t go to the same high school, but by getting to know Jennifer and her family I started to see how racism affected a good friend of mine. I had a close Black friend who wasn’t afraid to tell me about the things I didn’t get. This has also been the case as I have gotten older and have made other friends.
I have also been influenced in my anti-racist work by several prominent authors, artists, and academics. I didn’t meet these people, but I read their works. James Baldwin was my early inspiration. Somehow, I got my hands on If Beale Street Could Talk…one of his less popular novels. I loved that book, so I decided to read Go Tell It On The Mountain, Another Country, The Fire Next Time, Just Above My Head, and several other books. I remember reading a June Jordan article in college about the power of anger. The book I mentioned in the previous post…White Racism had a dramatic shift on my understanding of racism. When I read it, I felt like someone else was articulating what I felt about racism. While I do think many people misinterpret literature and art, this can be another was to begin to develop approximating experiences, which can help lead to empathy.
I think my experience is instructive for three reasons. First, it shows that there are many pathways developing awareness of racism whether it is through interpersonal relationships, organizational involvement, a general belief in social equality, or accessing at and literature. The second reason it is instructive is that it shows some of the ridicule and difficulty that Whites face if they challenge racism. I don’t want this to scare people, but it is a reality that people who challenge racism face. When we ignore racism, we simply opt out by using our White privilege, but when we challenge racism and White privilege there are consequences. Finally, I think my experience can help others who want to challenge racism know that they are not alone. I felt really alone in high school, and I kept many of these experiences to myself. I think developing anti-racist allies is crucial to maintaining a front against racism. Those allies can be Whites or People of Color. They can be role models and/or friends. The battle against racism doesn’t have to occur in isolation. I’m not saying I have all of the answers or that I have completely purged racism from myself. In fact, the more I learn about racism the harder I think it is to challenge it. I see coming to an anti racist consciousness as a long process. I learn new things every day, and I still have a lot more to learn about racism.
I would also like to add this link to David Schraub’s website. He talks about his own approximating experiences.
This post can also be found at Rachel’s Tavern and Ally Work.
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A slightly tangent: An approximating experience is used sometimes to train English as a Second Language teachers of adults.
In these days of anti-immigrant fever, with many native-English speakers complaining that immigrants (documented or not) don’t try to learn Engliah, it’s worth pointing out what a lie this is.
My wife is head of the nation’s and probably the world’s largest adult ESL program, 250,000 students in Los Angeles. Students are so desperate to learn that they squeeze classes between two jobs and family obligations, sometimes commuting via two or three bus transfers.
But, learning a language is tough as an adult – especially if you’re not well-educated in your own country (40% of adult students in the LA ESL programs have no schooling above 6th grade) .
To demonstrate how tough, some trainers do sessions in which English-speaking trainees try to learn “Martian” from a “teacher” who supposedly can’t speak English. The problems this causes for the “students” is highly instructive.
One good book about a white person experience of racism is John Howard Griffin’s Black Like Me, published in 1961.
I studied under a sociologist who worked with Joe Feagin on some books(they are both conflict theorists). I’ve wanted to read more of his published work on racism.
There’s the “Isis Papers” by Dr. Welsing which talks about racism as a tool for the survival of White Supremacism.
Interview with Dr. Francis Cress Welsing
Yes, there can be consequences, but I believe it is our responsibility to face them(and yes, they often are difficult, Whites can be vicious to other Whites who are addressing these issues in ways you have described and othes) and deal with them and still maintain our focus on what we are doing to challenge White Supremacism that benefits us more than it hurts us and has disguised a racist system that has denied to, or has taken from others as a “meritocracy”.
Another approximating experience: live in another country where you are the minority race. Probably not practical for most people (although I strongly strongly strongly encourage all kids in high school to go on exchange programs, such as AFS) but it’s an eye opener. Even basic culture shock of living anywhere else outside one’s own country makes one very much aware that there are different systems of thought and experience.
Other approximating experiences (already noted) — other forms of oppression or discrimination such as gender & disabilities (although I have certainly met my share of bigoted women & disabled folks ).
Yeah, Radfem Feagin is amazing. I have heard that he has body guards at many of his appearances. I’m going to read the link. I have read the last several books and some of the coauthored (he coauthors with many of his students) books by Feagin. White Racism is the bet in my view.
BEG, that is a very good point. Nothing like international experience to change people. In fact, some of my most open minded students, when it comes to race, are former miltary people. They mention the same things you talk about. I don’t think this happens with all military folks, but I think it seems to help some people.
I also think meteor blades has a good point about the ESL training.
In many states of this great Union, it’s pretty darn easy for white people to live in another county (or town, or ZIP code) where “you are the minority”.
It’s cheaper than a student exchange program to Singapore or Sao Paulo, and the whole family can do it!
It’s worked wonders for my consciousness.
Unfortunately some people have the adverse reaction to being outside their own country – they start believing that it’s the best in every way, and that everyone else just wants to go there and take advantage of it.
It’s fortunately not a common reaction, but I have run into it a few times.
Another approximating experience: live in another country where you are the minority race.
my wife spent half a year in west africa studying tribal village culture as a guest of some wonderfully hospitable and humorous people, and definitely experienced the wake-up call of what it’s like to be treated even under the kindest experiences as some kind of alien being for having “differently” colored skin. children would chase her through the streets laughing “Obruni! Obruni!” and sometimes would ask her if she was a ghost. some children who had not seen a white person before actually reacted with fear when she walked by. more than anything it was a lesson in not taking herself too seriously. she also noticed, upon passing back through Italy, that when some West African gentlemen were lost on the train, no one but she would help them. it made her hyper-aware of the interactions between people of different skin color back home. i think that both she, and i from hearing her stories about it, have come to the conclusion that a major hurdle for euro-americans is to just get over themselves and treat everyone as neighbors who want and need the same basic things out of life.
In many states of this great Union, it’s pretty darn easy for white people to live in another county (or town, or ZIP code) where “you are the minority”.
i already do! i wish i was able to say it was due to some sort of metropolitan, open-minded liberality on my part, but the truth of the matter is that i live here for the same reason that the nigerians, somalis, vietnamese, laotians, salvadorans, nicaraguans, etc. do – it’s the only place we could afford to live. interestingly enough, property values are skyrocketing, and if we’d tried to buy a house here now instead of four years ago, we wouldn’t have been able to afford that either. the cynical part of me is curious whether five years from now the neighborhood will still be as diverse, or whether white yuppie gentrification will creep over the landscape.
I think empathy is lacking everywhere — people make almost no effort to understand the motivations of others, and assume all of the motivations are the lowest and worst. It takes real effort to project yourself into another’s view.
The immigration debate is a good example — I have friends, who are nice enough and mean well, who feel that the immigrants are all criminals (not just by the fact of being undocumented — but literally criminals). I stood up to them and tried to explain why people would be motivated to pursue prosperity, and how hard it must be for them to leave home and family, and that statistics do not generally support their thesis. It’s helped a little.
In my speech class the other night my professor stated that our society (and most societies) are becoming increasingly individualistic, and that if something doesn’t have a direct effect on an individual they will be hard pressed to care about it.
I see this everywhere I look in almost every circle I travel in. There is empathy lacking everywhere.
To gently push the discussion in a direction, I’d like to comment on the advent of blogging and it’s impact on our ability to understand racism.
I’m white – without trying I am the poster boy for white. White skin, blonde hair, blue eyes. I have lived an interesting life, which includes spending my younger years in South Central Los Angeles at the time of the riots. My parents put me in a private school to provide a better education. I was still the only white boy in my class. The neigborhood was lower middle class and I have quite a mixture of memories about racism.
I can remember many disappointing times approaching other kids to talk or play with only to be rebuffed by the kids because I was different. There were also times when some bully used the color of my skin as the means of identifying his next victim for verbal and/or physical abuse.
I can also remember many happy times just being a kid with other kids who were all oblivious about race. The only race we knew was running down to the corner candy store. I laugh when I remember how the son of the Baptist minister used to talk in this funny low rumbling voice as he practiced the diction of his beloved father.
Honestly, most of my friends weren’t black – they were hispanics or indians, or others who didn’t quite fit in.
Later, my family moved to an upper middle class area where there was only one black kid in class. It took a couple of years to drop some of the behavior I learned in the “ghetto” world and adjust to a different set of cultural norms.
Honestly, I ran into less racism in the upper middle class area than I did in South Central. What I did find was a lot more elitism. There was a lot more pressure surrounding the label on your shirt, what car you drove, etc. I missed the days when those things didn’t matter.
In college at UCLA, there was a joyous mixture of cultures and races to witness and share. This was at the rise of political correctness which pretty much erased all aknowledgement of any white culture from popular media.
Thank you, Alas, for allowing me to share some of my own experiences. They don’t necessarily conform to the PC view of racial relations popularized in the media over the last 20 years, but I doubt that there are many out there who have experiences that do.
Thanks for the story. Just out of curiosity: Where in the US was this? I’m under the perhaps outdated impression that open racism is still more prevalent and accepted in the former confederate states.
As a personal story this seemed to be in many ways similar
to those where other people tell how they found out some special calling in life; such as witnessing suffering and disease in their personal life and deciding to became a healer, or their fellow souls in clutches of sin and subsequently finding a mission as a preacher.
Certainly anti-racism is a worthy pursuit. Likely those negative reactions were mainly due to racism. On the other hand, perhaps many if not most white people already believe that “racism is bad, but (some excuses)”, and therefore attempt to achieve perfection by purging it from oneself completely is bound to somehow make ordinary people feel inferior and defensive. Maybe this in turn provokes some petty hostility due to perceived “holier than thou attitude”.
Veganism or absolutism seem also for example to highly annoy some people despite the fact that there are basically no rational arguments against them as personal choices.
That said, naturally most loud and obnoxious people are just pricks, and while those might enjoy provoking all people with genuine beliefs, it is also very likely that those kind of people are also honestly racist.
Some others perhaps really think that being 100% anti-racist is “too much” and leads to some kind of moral anorexia. Likely this could be rationalized only very clumsily, such as good old: “why condemn x but not also every other bad thing in the world.”
Despite those bad experiences, perhaps many people essentially agree with the message against racism, and the lack of support is mostly explained by other human weaknesses than genuine belief in racial superiority. This despite the fact that 99% people likely lack rachel’s zeal on the issue.
About the approximating experience: I’d say that someone who has enough wisdom, empathy and ability to not to take themselves seriously can indeed learn something valuable. But is that kind of person likely to be racist in the first place?
Furthermore, and according to my personal experiences, hostility mostly leads to mutual hostility, mistrust breeds mistrust etc.
Quite a trivial point, but it’s why I believe that white racism will only get stronger when white people are in receiving end of oppression for whatever reason.
Approximating experiences and the vital importance of empathy might be valuable things for an invidual but it’s hard to see how they could be useful in the scale of whole societies.
Empathy is good but perhaps overkill if the goal is just to defeat racism, basic decency as in treating everyone fairly would do quite nicely.
Sorry, last chapter should read: Approximating experiences and empathy might…
Marcus, You make some really good points. Let me add to those. You said, “Some others perhaps really think that being 100% anti-racist is “too much” and leads to some kind of moral anorexia.” I think a few things happen when people become a little too focused on this issue. First, you can’t fight every battle, so you have to learn when to conserve energy and when to fight. Fighting all the time is exhausting and people do start to take the issue less seriously.
I also think one of the problems is that people may say racism is wrong, but I think most people, especially Whites, really don’t have a good grasp on institutional racism. They think racism only applies to things like assault and murder.
You also said, “I’d say that someone who has enough wisdom, empathy and ability to not to take themselves seriously can indeed learn something valuable. But is that kind of person likely to be racist in the first place?”
Yes, and no. I think they would be more likely to challenge their racism or change when confronted, but I don’t know that they would be less likely to challenge racism.
You said, “Quite a trivial point, but it’s why I believe that white racism will only get stronger when white people are in receiving end of oppression for whatever reason.” I think there is some validity to this. The group threat hypothesis has been supported over and over again in research.
You said, “Approximating experiences and the vital importance of empathy might be valuable things for an invidual but it’s hard to see how they could be useful in the scale of whole societies.” I strongly agree with you here. This is more about social psychology and interpersonal relationships, not structural change. I think we need to work on both fronts to challenge racism.
… Why, oh why did I have to click on that link? Vile stuff.
Some juicy bits from the interview (all Dr. Creuss’ answers):
“White people are inferior”:
“And they know this!”
… And nothing like some “whites must breed with whites to stay white” (usually associated with vile White supremacist groups)
I won’t go in to detail on her deeply confused view on genetics (hint: recessive in genes does not equal weak).
“HIV/AIDS is tool of White Supremacy”
I mean, seriously, Radfem? Why link to such hate?
How about no race is inferior, instead of any, and I do mean any (including that of Dr. Creuss), kind of supremacism is wrong?
…is wrong -ending was a mistake, disregard it. Should read:
instead of any, and I do mean any (including that of Dr. Creuss), kind of supremacism?
I was nine years old and at summer camp and we were discussing our favorite music groups as part of the getting-to-know-you exercise. After I stated that I preferred the Jackson 5 to the Osmonds, I was ostracized and called a nigger-lover (whenever someone bothered to talk to me). I was totally bewildered that people thought the color of someone’s skin made a difference when listening to music on the radio. I think it was at that point that I really started thinking about race and privilege (although I didn’t have the vocabulary for it back then). After I went to my high school reunion a few years ago, I found out through the grapevine that many of the same people who called me a nigger-lover and generally made my life miserable from nine years old through high school graduation were looking at where I live and work and what my life is like now and saying, “See, I told you she was a nigger-lover.” Some things are changing _way_ too slowly.
Tuomas,
At first, after a quick skim, I thought Radfem linked to that to show the “Protocols of the Elders of Zion” type of thinking being advanced, but rereading her comment again it looks like she’s offering this up as serious scholarship. I’m confused by the thesis she’s trying to advance.
Yes, that was my first thought, too. But then, the comment implies otherwise. I hope she will clarify.
You only need clarification because your poor melanin-starved brain isn’t capable of integrating the GENIUS of Dr. Welsing.
That must be it. Well, good thing us inferior beings have our supremacy .
Interesting, when this happens.
Actually, one of the most interesting discussions I ever had on race, racism and White Supremacism inside a class room came through a discussion of the Isis Papers. It was presented by my professor to both elicit discussion, both of her theories and of their possible relationship to the White dominant paradym along with other theories. There were lots of her theories I disagreed with, some vehmently(i.e. the effemization of men, gender roles, HIV) but other points she raised, I’ve seen exercised in front of me, and do every day. I don’t spend my life experiences in an atmosphere where I am the racial majority.
Some of her points were supported, others soundly criticized. It was a very lively debate. She didn’t come out of it in very good shape, but our class did. It was one of my first experiences hearing how racism has impacted so many areas of the lives of men and women of color who were responding to the topic the professor brought up. Joe Feagin is great reading, but in my African-American literature class, the Isis Papers brought out a greater discussion on theories with racism that were much more in line with his.
Much like in another class, when we debated Joe Feagin’s conflict construct theories on race and racism, although that elicited more discussion from White students on the issue.
I’m so sorry I offended you through my attempts to elicit some discussion on White Supremacism. Rest assured, White Supremacism has been and still is far more harmful to more people in this world than the Isis Papers will ever be. I wish Whites would react just as strongly to the assertion in best selling texts that Black people are biologically and genetically inferior. Yet, we still hold onto the IQ test standard that was set up to classify people by race and class in our country and designate how “intelligent” they were. Which is one reason why you have members of Mensa spouting eugenics as a way of keeping our country “smart.”
This point resonated with me, though not so much for her theory, but because what is happening where I live.
I’ve seen this attitude among Whites in my state, especially in the more conservative valleys. Not to mention in the Deep South and in other sections in the country. Were we this xenophobic in my state for example, when it was much more White?
There’s this fear among many especially with the migration in of Latinos and Asians(both Southern and Eastern) that their numbers and thus their power will be diluted. Yet as their numbers and proportion decrease while California is on its way to becoming a majority minority state, their need to control the economic and political power has remained the same, leading to a backlash against the state’s Latino residents. This was expressed by the pushing of fear-based legislation including propositions 187, 209 and 227, all which passed. I don’t know if I agree with her theory of why this is so, but I know what has been happening in my state.
Is it based on an ingrown belief that your race is in danger of being diluted from its presense in the world? On the surface, probably not. But there is this fear among Whites in the United States of becoming a diminishing factor in this changing country when it comes to economic, political and social influence and power. A lot of rhetoric on the immigration issue has shown that. The minutemen recruiting from White-Supremacist movements and prancing their rhetoric in primarly Latino neighborhoods of cities in Southern California has shown that. After all, they’re not up doing like in the more porous borders up North, you know the same borders that some of the terrorists who committed or planned(i.e. LAX attack, 1999) attacks in this country came through. That’s why we have a government that went from equating terrorism to Iraq to equating it with undocumented immigrants from Latin America. That is why Latinos regardless of their citizen, immigration status see the immigration debates as a civil rights issue.
When it comes to the mixing of Whites and other races, it wasn’t people of color who came up with the “one drop” theory, it was Whites. That is what she is referring to in her paragraph above. How Whites view the reproduction between White people and people of color.
This is true, past and present, through the pushing of the “meritocracy” system, meaning that if you don’t succeed, it’s not racism, it’s not White Supremacism, it’s your own shortcomings, laziness, low intelligence, etc.
I don’t know if it is inherant survival as much as to ensure that Whites maintain control over the vast majority of the pie, which for us might be a definition of survival. I think many Whites do fear being a racial minority, whether we admit it or not. That’s again, why you see a lot of the behavior that is going on in cities, counties, states and even a country that is changing in term of its ethnic and racial demographics.
Now, I guess I’ll leave you to your “Racism and White supremacy hurts White people too” discussion. Carry on.
Who did you quote, radfem?
This was hardly sarcasm about Rachel’s original post, and it can be safely assumed that no white poster here is hurt by white supremacy in any serious way. I’m certainly not, and it would also explain why nobody is complaining.
I agree that Dr. Welsings theories have not been as destructive as nazism or slavery, and go even further and claim that they are not very likely to harm anyone at all.
Even personally I them kind of fascinating: As a white person you hear about basic argument of white supremacy ad nauseam as jokes, anecdotes and such…
Then, out of the blue comes something as imaginative and fresh as:
It looks just like a theory but fundamentally it’s like a racist joke about racism itself. Image of middle-aged white man symbolically beating his own balls in golf field is reasonably amusing in itself but also after contemplating something completely different you can also suddenly see other racial theories for what they really are.
Parody is a powerful tool, so there’s no reason to not support her work. Note that it is not relevant if her parody of scientific racism is intentional.
Shorter RadFem:
Everyone who disagrees with Dr. Welsing (on race) is just scared of losing White Supremacy.
And you didn’t answer my question: Why did you link to that? Surely there are better writings on the subject, that aren’t filled with racism (inferiority of Whites) and conspiracy theories (HIV/AIDS).
One final note (pardon the triple post), but Dr. Welsings theories are indeed more comical than they are dangerous. But the existence, and the praise she receives for them, tells something of the prevalent academic, postmodern, leftist mindset. And it’s not a pretty picture.
Tuomas:
I really loathe the “Shorter X” formulation. It’s all about treating another person as a subject of ridicule and contempt. While that might be appropriate while dealing with someone from another site (and who therefore isn’t part of the current conversation), or for dealing with a clear-cut troll posting on this site, it’s an extremely inappropriate way to treat a regular poster on this site, who has not flamed you at all.
:Shrug: The picture you see, is the picture you have an idealogical desire to see, Tuomas.
How can the mere “existence” of a theorist be proof of anything, apart from freedom of speech? How, exactly, is the academic left supposed to prevent a theorist from existing?
As for “praise,” you’re talking about one of the most academically obscure people in the entire world. Dr. Welsing holds no academic position (she earns a living as a psychologist, and lectures at an institute she created herself – the academic equivalent of vanity publishing), and is not published by any academic press I know of.
A google scholar search for “Cress Welsing” returns 71 results. Her most popular work, “The Isis Papers,” has been cited by scholars 19 times (that google knows of).
Let’s compare that to a lefty psychologist who actually has been influential and praised in her own fairly narrow field: google scholar MP Koss and you get over 4000 results. Her most-cited article has been cited by scholars nearly 300 times, and if you add up all the times her writings have been cited, it would total in the thousands.
So what you’re saying is, the fact that someone exists and is barely noticed (let alone praised) in academia is, in some mysterious fashion, evidence about the “prevalent academic, postmodern, leftist mindset.” Uh-huh.
All you’re actually demonstrating is that some folks grasp any straw – no matter how obviously slight – in order to make rote “lefties suck!” arguments.
* * *
I agree with nearly everything Radfem has said here, apart from the citation of Dr. Welsing.
However, I also agree with Marcus that unless Dr. Welsing is intentionally writing a parody, Dr. Welsing’s conclusions – even where I’d agree with some of them – are in her work based on unreasonable, racially essentialist foundations, and support race-essentialist style of analysis. It’s true, as Radfem says, that Dr. Welsing’s theories are extremely unlikely to do anyone any harm in and of themselves. But I think legitimizing race-essentialist analysis is a bad idea nonetheless, because not everyone who uses a race-essentialist approach is harmless.
I probably should have explained better my reasons for posting the link than I did when I posted it, but I’ve been very busy the past few days(and what I’ve dealt with only has reminded me what “ism” is really the most dangerous in reality). But given that my sharing of one of my “approximizing” moments in my own “work” with racism has received this type of response fromthe oh-so-progressive people, it was probably a waste of the bandlength to try to explain it anyway. I’m sorry that you saw it as “legitimizing” a theory, well I guess that can be said, while my experiences discussing, ripping apart and learning from the process can never seen as being “legitimate” because they don’t fall within the acceptable types of “approximation” experiences by White people doing “work”.
That discussion was a pivotal point in my development. If that makes me a “racist” or a “race traitor” or whatever, it’s not like I haven’t heard that one before. That’s why I do most of my “work” in solitude away from other members of my race, be they conservative, leftist, progressive, whatever.
Part of my “work” is addressing the issues of why Whites are so frightened of the increasing economic and political clout of some racial groups, which is in part based on their overestimation of this growth(again, largely fear based). That fear in past and present has led to violence and death, and in more modern times to economic, political and social backlash by those who hold the power. You can imagine that the Isis Papers may do that to Whites, but in actuality, it’s obviously different. A lot of White sociologists and psychologists won’t even touch the fear element(although Joe Feagin does to an extent) which I think is a very important part of the equation in racism and White Supremacy.
First of all, most of the folks who have been criticizing your link aren’t “progressives” at all, so using this discussion for some general indictment of progressives does not make sense.
And as I said, I agree with virtually everything you’ve posted here. I’m not saying that your work, your experiences, or your insights are not legitimate (and I’d appreciate it if you could try responding to what I say, rather than making up stuff I didn’t say and responding to that); on the contrary, I think all three are legitimate.
I am, however, saying that Dr. Welsing’s work, despite the fact that discussing it led you to extremely valuable and legitimate insights, is extremely problematic.
No one here has called you a “racist” or a “race traitor,” unless I missed something. For the record, I don’t think you’re a racist, and the only sense in which you’re a race traitor is the positive sense (i.e., all Whites should be traitors to white supremacist ideology).
There’s more than one way to say someone’s a racist, rather than just stating it.
I was responding pretty much to everyone who had responded to me. Not singling individuals out. When more than one person responds saying basically the same time, it’s not always easy to filter them all out.
Though it would have been nice if I had been treated this way as well.
What I find problemic in discussions of racism and complicity among Whites is when there’s more concern with making sure people don’t feel too uncomfortable, or that they don’t feel afraid in the process(of themselves and of what others might think of what they have said), rather than addressing the issue that White people, even the most progressive, have this inate fear of the day when they will no longer be a “majority” either numerically or through access and control of society’s institutions. That when the tide turns, the people of color will treat them as they have been treated.
Sometimes I wonder if that is what is behind Whites’ tendacy to equate afrocentrist or La Raza(which have been labeled as worse than White Supremacism in these parts) beliefs with White Supremism as if the two were equal forces, especially in negative terms. As if there literally could be a tit for tat, even though in our society, the gross inequalities that still exist among the races would pretty much prevent this. Maybe we believe deep down that we would deserve to be treated this way. After all, the vast majority of Whites have soaked up White Supremacism from the cradle, we’ve benefited from it, even as we still refuse to owe up to the costs our benefits have reaped from other racial groups.
That element of how we as a race react to other races especially when they start acquiring more power in society in various areas has always deeply troubled me, but interested me as well. I find it very hard to “process” racism and the “work” done to undo our learned behaviors and belief systems very difficult to do without it.
That said, I will be very careful about sharing any more of my “approximation” experiences here, because 1) there are people in RL who are looking at ways to get back at me b/c of repercussions from some of my ahem, “work” and 2) because I don’t feel like being branded a racist(in ways other than just stating it literally) at this moment in time. This just isn’t a good week for it.
I can understand that. Point well taken, and sorry I misread you as responding to my post in particular.
And, for what it’s worth, I honestly did not intend in any way to call you a racist, directly or through implication.
And I do agree that a constant undercurrent (or, sometimes, explicit current) in white thought in this country has been fear of what happens when whites are a minority, or if whites lost control of the power structures of society.
What I find problemic in discussions of racism and complicity among Whites is when there’s more concern with making sure people don’t feel too uncomfortable,
This phenomona isn’t restricted to White sensitivities. You can see it with everyone when sensitive topics are brought up and then there are all sorts of circumlocutions brought into play. I much prefer the straightforward approach. If you have a case that you want to make then it’s sad that you feel that you need to pull your punches.
rather than addressing the issue that White people, even the most progressive, have this inate fear of the day when they will no longer be a “majority” either numerically or through access and control of society’s institutions. That when the tide turns, the people of color will treat them as they have been treated.
There’s a bit of a problem with your statement. When I read you referring to White people I automatically frame your reference in terms of distributions, (ie. not all white people but some white people) therefore I don’t think that you’re making a blanket assessment. The problem is that I’m inferring something that you may not be implying – so do you actually mean all white people or just some white people?
As to the fear that you think pervades these white people, I don’t sense it at all. Demographic proportion within a nation doesn’t always translate very well to economic or cultural power, and sometimes not even into political power. All you need do is look at the situation of the Parsis of India, or of Jews, or of Malaysian and Phillipine Chinese, etc. There exist, all around the world, groups that are market dominant minorities. I see no reason to model a “substitution effect” or a “role-flipping” involving Whites and Hispanics as the demograhics of the future take shape.
TangoMan,
I don’t know about Parsis, but Chinese South-East Asian and Jews have both been subjected to extreme persecution in areas where they had some degree of economic dominance (try finding Chinese Cambodians), so it is not surprising that White people fear becoming a dominant minority rather than a dominant majority. While dominant minorities may be able to maintain power for extended periods of time, they are much more subject to violence than dominant majorities are.
Admittedly, that sort of risk probably doesn’t actually cut in until the dominant minority is very much a minority (say, under 10%), but that doesn’t stop it from being a major feature of racist and nativist rhetoric (fear for the destruction for the white race, fear that Anglo culture will be over run by the Irish, the Poles, and the Italians – oh wait, wrong century, I meant that it will be over run by Hispanics and Muslims).
And what comes out visibly in openly racist rhetoric can often be found floating around the backs of the minds of Whites who are not openly racist. You say you don’t sense that fear. Are you really so unfamiliar with racist rhetoric? Or do you merely believe that openly racist Whites are a pure aberation with no connection to the larger White culture?
Charles,
You say you don’t sense that fear.
You provide the answer when you write:
I don’t see the Causcasions of Texas, California, Hawaii and New Mexico working themselves into a lather about the changing demographics of their states. Sure, they’re noticing it, but I don’t think that they’re fearing it. Nor do I sense a growing unease which affects the everyday lives of the Caucasion citizens of Maryland, Mississippi, Georgia, New York and Arizona where “minorities” now number between 40% and 50% of the population.
Now when the numbers really get skewed then I’ll buy into your argument and I might note, you actually provide historical evidence that shows that there are ample and valid reasons to be concerned which have nothing to do with racist conspiracies.
Being somewhat sympathetic to “oldtime” liberal policies I think that liberals actually need to confront the long term consequences of their embrace of identity politics. For instance:
The more multicultural you make a nation the less civic engagement and social welfare we see being embraced. ISTM that modern Leftists have chosen the multicultural vision over the social welfare vision, for it is becoming abundantly clear that both can’t co-exist.
Also, note that the argument I was making in my previous comment had to do with demography being directly translatable into economic, social and political control. I was disputing the contention that Radfem was advancing. I’m not really disputing the issue you’re advancing.
Lastly, I am aware of what you call the racist concern about maintaining “Anglo Culture” but I simply don’t see such concerns as being racist in an environment which encourages other cultures to sprout and flourish. If it’s fine to promote Spanish culture within the US then I see it as equally fine to push back against Spanish culture and advocate for one’s own culture. Actually, more than equally fine, for the host culture gets bonus points over the grafted culture. If one action is racist then so is the other, and if one action isn’t racist then neither is the other.
Oops, in support of my previous point I meant to link to this paper which I was just reading, but I forgot to work in a reference. Here is the paper:
If you don’t think it applies in the US consider how Blacks are treated if they are seen defecting to the Republican Party. They experience a high cost to defection. Do you think that the reverse applies to a white person switching allegiance from the Republican Party to the Democratic Party? I don’t. If you agree, then the question is why? This is part of the reason that I think identity politics is very bad for the US.
Right. I agree that whites are afraid of losing their majority. I’ve read that around 70% of the world is non-white (57% of the world population is Asian) and I believe that whites are afraid they will be breeded out of existence. The movement to overturn Roe v Wade has partly been about increasing the white population in this country “before it’s too late!”
I’ve read this paper before and non-white genes that determine a child’s non-white features are stronger than white genes that determine physical features. If a black or Asian has a child with a white person, the child usually has more non-white features and that scares the bejeezus out of whites. I’m not a biologist but believe this is true about features.
Radfem, there are variations of the following link. Some say 18% of the world is white which is closer to your 10%. There are some variations but the numbers are basically the same.
http://www.wowzone.com/100p.htm
If we could shrink the earth’s population to a village of precisely 100 people, with all the existing human ratios remaining the same, it would look something like the following.
There would be:
57 Asians
21 Europeans
14 from the Western Hemisphere, both North and South America
8 Africans
52 would be female
48 would be male
70 would be non-white
30 would be white
70 would be non-Christian
30 would be Christian
89 would be heterosexual
11 would be homosexual
6 people would possess 59% of the entire world’s wealth;
all 6 would be from the United States.
80 would live in substandard housing
70 would be unable to read
50 would suffer from malnutrition
1 would be near death; 1 would be near birth
1 (yes, only 1) would have a college education
1 would own a computer
TangoMan,
For instance, Anglos have “pushed back” by requiring emergency providers to not use Spanish. I’m not sure how this helps to protect Anglo culture (a term that seriously creeps out my Jewish spouse) except by ensuring the deaths of some additional Spanish speakers. Traditionally, white Southerners “pushed back” against black culture by donning sheets and hoods, and Anglo Northerners “pushed back” against Jews and Italians and the Irish by banning them from their schools, banning them from jobs, and beating them up in the streets. Anglo’s invented the SATs in an attempt to push back against the terrible Jewish invasion of the Ivy Leagues, and when that failed they invented a need for Montanans in the Ivy League, and a “whole person” standard. When that failed, they “pushed back” by setting a maximum enrollment quota from disproportionately Jewish high schools like Horace Greely in Chappiqua, NY.
So when you say you are all for Anglo’s pushing back, I figure that all of that is what you are saying you support, and is what you are saying you don’t see how anyone could think it racist. And that again is why I think you are a racist, ardent and avowed, even if you are displeased at having the title stuck next to your name.
And, of course, I know that you will be unimpressed by being called out as a supporter of such practices, just as I know that you will be unimpressed by being called a racist. It seems pretty clear to me that while you don’t like the term, you are very comfortable in your beliefs, and that having them called nasty names just proves to you how clear thinking and insightful you are, how willing to go beyond fuzzy liberal thinking and look at the truth of the world.
Bully for you.
I say you’re spinach, and I say to hell with you.
Well, Charles has persuaded me, at least. Tangoman is banned.
Hmm. That’s the first time I’ve seen you ban someone based solely on their point of view.
One of the numerous nasty comments by the offensive Tangoman. Good riddance!
I think I feel a bit freer about it now that virtually every new post on “Alas” is cross-posted elsewhere. So I don’t feel like I’m preventing people from commenting; I’m just exerting more control over the content of discussions here.
Anonymous, what’s objectionable about the comment? It seems like common sense to me.
Comments like that are simply insulting to histories of non-whites. Alot of comments are insensitive to non-whites and whites are not yet aware of what is insensitive to non-whites. I think it’s a good for evolution that whites are becoming more sensitized to what upsets non-whites such as myself.
Is there any chance of any of these threads getting un-derailed?
The thread is about whites working on anti-racism. It’s not derailing the thread if a non-white person or ally such as myself helps teach about racism.
Comments like that are simply insulting to histories of non-whites.
How?
And helpfully points out when commenters are being very insensitive about race.
Are you a racist version of an MRA?
Anyway, Charles, isn’t it ironic that on a thread about whites learning to be anti-racist, learning about anti-racism is thread derailment?
Are you a racist version of an MRA?
I don’t know. Charles probably thinks so.
Do you have an answer to the question?
Anonymous, would you consider choosing a pen name other than “anonymous”? It would make the conversation easier to read, in my opinion.
Returning to the subject of Rachel’s post, I’m not sure that I have any approximating experiences, per se – that is, specific stories I can tell. I’ve been wondering how my experience as a fat man in an anti-fat society, and as a boy who couldn’t be “masculine” in a society that isn’t very kind to wimpy boys, apply, and if so how. Certainly these experiences have given me some idea of what it is to belong to a despised and marginalized group.
But at the same time, it’s clear to me that nothing I’ve experienced is like the routine discrimination many blacks in the US have to live with. Yes, the way people treat me because I’m fat sometimes sucks, but I’ve lived in neighborhoods where the police were constantly harassing my black neighbors (and not just the drug dealers). They never once bothered me (except for the time they got the address of the drug dealer next door wrong, and so shined a spotlight into our living room for a while).
Of course, approximating experiences don’t have to be exact (hence the term “approximating”). Plus, personal experience isn’t the only kind of experience that is “approximating” – Rachel also suggests that whites can develop empathy through reading works by people of color. I want to do more of that.
Although I’ve read and will continue to read a lot of social science by black scholars, which has helped broaden my understanding of institutional racism, for making me feel less clueless about day-to-day aspects of racism maybe the best “approximating experiences” I’ve had, have come from reading pop fiction by black authors.
Although it won’t make any “best novels of the decade” lists, for me reading the novel The Emperor of Ocean Park by Stephen Carter may have been an approximating experience. Even for the main character of that book – a wealthy, successful, conservative black man, like the novelist himself – the portrayal of living in a white-centric society was one of non-stop oppressiveness and blindness on the part of white friends and associates. The relentless quality of racism – even from the POV character of a black conservative who I might have expected to de-emphasize racism – was very striking to me. (Any people of color reading this are probably now rolling their eyes at my cluelessness. :-P )
The “Blanche” series of mystery novels, by Barbara Neely, is another series that has been an “approximating experience” for me. I don’t mean that because I’ve read some mystery novels, I Understand The Black Experience (TM); clearly I don’t understand. But reading stuff likes this helps me notice racism going on in the day-to-day life around me. Plus, they’re fun as hell to read.
Currently, however, I’m reading a book about race by a white author, White Like Me by Tim Wise, which actually has a lot in it that’s useful for me. I’m planning to spend more time reading about whiteness and “whiteness studies” – right now, that seems like a very fruitful reading agenda for me.
One way of putting this thread back on Rachel’s original track (a little) is that people could suggest reading they’ve found to be useful, from the point of view of “approximating experiences.” Or describe any “approximating experiences” they’ve had, if folks care to share.
anonymous, could you give yourself a name? Any sort of name would do.
This thread, at its inception, is about the use of empathy building experiences as a way of working against ones own racism. It was not about the ‘common sense’ -ness of the white race/anglo culture ‘pushing back’ against them evil others. I don’t object in concept to you arguing with Robert about his racist views. I just spent a while arguing with TangoMan’s racist views, and my little plea to return to the topic of the thread was what I wrote after I wrote a response to Robert that I didn’t post.
Of course, I haven’t written anything on my own empathy building experiences (or my views on empathy building experiences), so I don’t have much standing to ask that people talk about their empathy building experiences rather than TangoMan’s or Robert’s views on pushing back.
Oops, cross posted with Amp. Please ignore my last post.
i’m very uncreative making up names.
equating white/anglo culture pushing back against non-white cultures with non-white cultures promoting their own culture is similar to equating racism against non-whites to non-whites prejudice towards whites. the latter is not racism but prejudice and perhaps some hostility. racism is prejudice plus power. it refers to acts of oppression of one racial group toward another such as economic exploitation. this definition distinguishes between simple feelings of hostility and prejudice toward another racial group and the ability to turn those feelings into some form of oppression. nonwhites might have prejudicial feelings toward white people but they have little opportunity to express those prejudicial feelings in some form of economic of political oppression of white people. on the other hand, prejudicial feelings that white people might have towards nonwhites can turn into racism when they become the basis for discrimination in education, housing and the job market. racism becomes the act of social, political and economic oppression of another group.
one can therefore say cultural domination equals culture plus power. nonwhite cultures in the united states cannot dominate the prevailing white culture because they lack the power of normative, white, anglo culture. or asian culture will never become the norm in the united states so pushing back on asian culture is different than asian cultures promoting themselves in the united states.
Nonwhiteperson, your position takes white dominance as a cosmic constant, rather than as a contingent result of history. Since it’s quite plain that white dominance is entirely a contingent result of history, and has no underpinnings that can’t be removed through the normal pressure of events – God, in short, has not ordained the white race for permanent rulership – the “it’s OK for asians to promote themselves but not anglos” theory is relativistic rubbish. Wrong is wrong, right is right. I try to behave accordingly. Standing up for one’s positive cultural values and rejecting negative aspects of others’ is positive behavior whether your last name is Castillo or Clark.
In terms of approximating experiences: I grew up largely in the deep South, with one particular small town in Mississippi (Shaw) being the principal place where I learned about racism. My parents were cultural liberals who taught us the basic lesson about people being the same and it being wrong to hate on the basis of skin color, but they didn’t go to any particular extreme in raising our consciousness.
Being an excluded person (nerdiness, mostly) through most of my childhood started clicking a little bit every time we returned to Shaw for a family visit. I would go for walks through the town and was struck by things that we just didn’t see in our middle-class all-military world. There was material suffering in the black community, but that didn’t seem particularly out of the ordinary; Shaw was a poor farming town and there was material suffering in the white community, too. It was just that the whites weren’t looked down on for being poor as much.
That’s what really clicked, I think – the way white people, who seemed otherwise ordinary and decent individuals, who would give their last dollar to a hungry child, simply took it for granted that black people were for looking down on. I noticed this a little more, I think, because I was generally looked down on in school and elsewhere for being weird and intellectual; it was the default behavior. What helped me see the black experience a tiny bit was the way that black people deferred to white in Shaw (and elsewhere, of course) – for what appeared to be the same reason that I deferred to more popular individuals – survival. If you defer, they won’t give you a hard time. Or at least, they might not give you such a hard time. In my case, the “hard time” was having books knocked out of hands or getting smacked on the head; for black people the hard time was just a wee bit harder than that.
That deference made me angry when I saw it in other people, because I was angry about my own inability to function at a higher social level. But it also reminded me that I was not obliged to proactively reciprocate the same kind of behavior – I was free to make the choice to treat people as individuals and not as meaningless members of some abstract group.
I often fail at that, but the approximating experience at least gives me the awareness that a better level of performance exists.
Robert,
Thanks for sharing that, and my approximating experiences are much the same as yours. I also live in the deep South, Louisiana, and I have seen the exact things that you are talking about.
I was also bullied in school for being “nerdy, different, and intellectual”. What saved me was being rased by a very socially progressive Mother and a Father who was less so. I could contrast their views, and I saw which generated the “best” overall life. My Mother hasn’t ever judged anyone based on anything other than their character, and raised me the same way. Now, I am raising my children in that same fashion, and now it isn’t just race, but also sexual orientation, nationality and a host of other differences that I’m teaching my children about.
I believe that is how change happens, it starts with us and proceeds through our children. Hate is learned behavior.
I wrote about pretty much the same thing as Robert in my post here”, which I won’t repeat here because Robert already put it so well.
I actually didn’t get bullied any over it, though, because I’m 6 foot tall and have been since the sixth grade. But the social ostracism and misplaced stereotypes that were attributed to me are, indeed, approximating experiences. The funny thing is that I didn’t ever realize this until my post a couple weeks ago, after reading a similar thread at, IIRC, The Happy Feminist’s. I never connected my lite oppression to the real oppression of other groups.
I imagine many people are the same. They’ve had lots of approximating experiences, but they just don’t realize it yet.
In fact, I imagine that most people are a minority in some respect. While, for a random person, it’s unlikely they’re in a minority for a given category, there are so many different categories subject to social bias that most people fall outside the normal range on at least a *couple* of them.
I wish I had the time to write this out in a more narrative form, but, quickly, some of my approximating experiences: Being harassed, having my home broken into, robbed and seriously vandalized twice, being physically assaulted and having anti-semitic graffiti written about me on my town library’s outer wall–and then left there for at least 5 years before the town decided to try to sandblast it away–and then the town did such a bad job of sandblasting it that the words were still legible more than 15 years later–and all of this, not just the graffiti, motivated by anti-semitism.
But in some ways more deeply “approximating” than that was the year I lived in South Korea as an English teacher: the license that people felt to stare at me openly, to call out “migook saram” (it’s an American) when I walked by–and this especially children–the way children would sometimes cry when they saw me or that old women on the subway would touch the hair on my arms in curiosity; not once seeing my face reflected on TV or in the newspapers or advertisements; walking into my apartment at the end of the day, seeing myself in the mirror and having that moment of cognitive dissonance when I “remembered” my bald, bearded, white-American face was nothing like the Korean faces I’d been seeing all day; the way in which my body was fetishized sexually (American men “have big dicks;” the idiom “to ride the white horse,” which my Korean friends told me was used to signify having sex with a white person, male or female); the message, sent very clearly by some people, that for a woman to be friends with an American man, let alone to have a relationship with him, makes her a whore (which I realize says a lot about Korean attitudes towards women, but it was on at least a couple of occasions made very clear to me that the people where I was who held this attitude would not have called my woman friend a whore had she been with a Korean man).
Regarding my experience in Korea: while it brought home to me in very deep and powerful ways what it is like to be a racial minority, I also have to acknowledge that what I experienced was not the result of the kind of racism that operates here in the States, where there is a conscious and purposeful disrcimination against/oppression of people of color.
Instutional racism that oppresses nonwhites has been my experience for my entire 30-plus years and I’m sure it’s been your experience too. We talking about our experiences and not some hypothetical. Speaking hypothetically is a dishonest tactic. Let’s attack what’s really going on and then we can talk about stuff that never happened.
This wasn’t about “standing up for one’s cultural values”. The earlier post said “push back against Spanish culture and advocate for one’s own culture” which is where the trouble began because it is insensitive to equate pushing back on a nonwhite culture to a nonwhite culture promoting itself in the US:
If it’s fine to promote Spanish culture within the US then I see it as equally fine to push back against Spanish culture and advocate for one’s own culture. Actually, more than equally fine, for the host culture gets bonus points over the grafted culture. If one action is racist then so is the other, and if one action isn’t racist then neither is the other.
Sorry that was me and the last paragraph was supposed to be a quote:
And this is what’s really gone on during my life and yours:
Thanks Amp for your comments, and thanks anonymous/noncoloredperson for your comments and link.
I guess the below was the banned Tango:
Do we really want to get into what was the “host’ culture, and which was “grafted”? (hint: one of the “grafted” was the Spanish culture, you know the one that actually came from Spain and not another unnamed country where people speak Spanish(and thus is referred to as being “Spanish” in this post)) There is this assumption that Anglo culture was the norm on this continent and did not arise from practicing genocide against cultures that preexisted the Europeans(whether Spaniards, French or British) and the peoples who practiced them. I would consider the near annihilation of people who were nonwhite by those who were White to have been a racist act. Racist ideology, sometimes wrapped up in the guise of religious beliefs and practices were also responsible. Our nation was built on that, plus the enslavement of Africans to perform labor.
Sorry, for hashing the above paragraph, but it’s a pet peeve I have when people talk about Anglos being the “host” culture. There were people here before us, after all.
Institutions under a racist culture can be oppressive to people of color, while they enhance the economic, political and social opportunities for Whites, thus enforcing the philosophy of White Supremacism. It’s a set system that reinforces itself because not enough Whites really want it to change once they learn what they have to give up in the process. Society then explains the “successes” of Whites and the relative lack thereof for people of color as a “meritocracy”. Under that “meritocracy”, Black people and Latinos get into college b/c of AA and Whites(even those with parents who are alumna, boosters or wealthy donors) get into college based on merit. People who ask for accountability of these institutions are told to “stop complaining” and that they’re not succeeding b/c of their own shortcomings.
Part of doing the “work” I think means facing up to the reality that many of the successes in our lives can be attributed to expanded opportunities available to us based largely on race. Not that there wasn’t effort, sacrifices and abilities put into it, but there are often more doors that are open for Whites in employment, for example. But people often don’t want to admit that reality exists, choosing instead to say, it’s all happened that way in the past.
For White feminists for example, there needs to be the realization that many of our advances in the workplace(balancing work and family is a much newer experience for the White middle-class women who led many of the feminist movements, than it is for women of color and White working class women) came at the expense of women of color. Who often takes care of the children of White women who work, whether in the home or in daycare? In Southern California, it’s usually Latinas.
If we are talking about the United States, no; but if we are not talking about the United States and are talking instead about countries where a given people of color are the majority and dominant and overwhelmingly in control of government, I wonder if this question gets a little more complicated. I don’t have specific examples in mind, but one of the things that I have learned as an ESL teacher, dealing with people from all over the world and from almost every conceivable racial, ethnic, political and socio-economic group, is that once you take a more global view, racism becomes a good deal more complicated than the white/of color binary opposition.
To the Japanese, for example, Koreans, Chinese Filipinos, etc. were “niggers,”–certainly up until WW II, and to the degree that Koreans still exist as second-class citizens in Japan, even now. And I have chosen the word “nigger” very consciously, because while we in the US tend to group Koreans, Chinese and Japanese under the umbrella term East Asian, as I understand it, the Japanes hatred of Koreans and Chinese was racialized–analogously to the way the Nazis racialized anti-Semitism.
I raise this question not to deny the force of the question I quoted in terms of US experience or simply to ameliorate it with the assertion that, well, everyone has the potential to be racist, but rather to wonder what happens, structurally, strategically, tactically to a discussion of racism as a worldwide phenomenon when you take the white/of color dichotomy and place it in the context of other racialized dichotomies/oppressions where whiteness is either not one of the operative terms at all or would be, by definition, on the less powerful end of the racial scale.
Because I think this also goes to the question of approximating experiences, who has them, what they might be and how they might operate across national/cultural lines. For example, it was a truism–and maybe still is–when I first became an ESL teacher that “nigger” was one of the first words that all immigrants learn, and my own experience tended to bear this out. What is interesting in terms of this thread, I think, is that this truism held even for people who had been racially or ethnically or otherwise oppressed/discriminated against in their own countries–especially if they came from a low socio-economic group or were not very well educated. In other words, they did not identify in the situation of African-Americans anything that approximated their own experiences at the hands of the dominant group(s) in the countries where they came from. Or, to put it the other way, they did not use their own experiences to give them access to any kind of empathy for the experience of African-Americans here. African-Americans became “niggers” to them very, very quickly.
Now that I have written this, I think I have actually conflated two different questions, one about racism as a global phenomenon, while the other is still not so clear in mind. Since I think these are interesting points, though, I am going to post this anyway and maybe someone will pick up on it and things will get clarified in discussion.
We’re still talking about our experiences and since 95% of the posters seem to be from majority white countries we live under the definition of insitutional racism I posted. In our majority white countries, nonwhites can be prejudiced against whites but cannot be racist against whites although we can be racist to other nonwhites or have internalized racism.
I got lazy on following this thread a while back, but the stories turned out to be really interesting. I kind of expected the “nerd” one to come up, and I have a former roommate, who definitely was able to grasp racism because of her experiences as a fat woman although it happened in a sort of round about way. Her experiences in college were her first interracial relationships (I’m using the term relationship broadly here), and she started to notice that African Americans were considerably less condescending to her as a fat person (I do think Blacks are more accepting or perhaps less disapproving of fatness, but I don’t know a study on this.). In fact, she made several Blacks friends in part because most of the White people were really nasty to her. Once she found more acceptance within this Black community that our school was in she started to share her experiences and started to hear about others. To this day she still lives in this predominantly Black neighborhood and is married to a Jordanian guy. Keep in mind this was the same woman who would not even talk about whether or not a Black male classmate of ours was attractive because her family would not approve.
I think the anti-Semitism example Richard used is common. Although I have to say, I think it is starting to diappear with the younger generation. This ended up being a really good discussion.
To get back on some old stuff:
RadFem: Thank you for answering my question, and explaining your reasons (I still don’t really agree with you, but your position makes sense now). And I suppose I went too far in some of my comments (as in the shorter -one). And if I see similar white-on-black racism, I do complain then, too.
Ampersand:
/kidding
shorter Ampersand: Logical explanation why the shorter -formulation sucks (sorry).
Hmm, perhaps. I don’t think a white person, who would write similar stuff (but reversed) would be anything else than a mocked, hated figure (and I’m not complaining on that, really). I maintain that the level of acceptable racism from whites to POC is far lower than the level of acceptable racism from POC to whites.
Some believe that (from nonwhiteperson) In our majority white countries, nonwhites can be prejudiced against whites but cannot be racist against whites although we can be racist to other nonwhites or have internalized racism.
To me, this kind of study is a logical outcome of that attitude (an opposite kind of study would simply not be accepted by the academia). For someone who beleives in the concept of universal rights (treating someone as an inferior based on race is just wrong, screw the hsitorical and collective concerns), this is problematic.
Pardon for continuing the thread drift, been away for while, just had to answer some stuff.
FWIW, I think the approximation -method is quite good against racism, as an invidual I try to do something like that, I know what it is like to be one who got the short stick, so to speak (altough I must say I nowadays consider myself quite privileged in many ways).
Pardon the awful grammar and misspellings. Easter break.
Tuomas,
I’ve never been a great fan of the bigotry/racism distinction radfem uses here, however, it is quite common, so it is worth getting used to and understanding. It is a matter of terminology and definition, so it is not actually worth arguing with, except possibly at the level of whether it is a useful terminology distinction. To the extent that it highlights the importance of the context of people’s actions, it is a valuable terminological distinction, to the extent that it seems to cause a huge amount of resentment and confusion for white people who are accustomed to using the word racism differently, it seems to have some problems.
On the other hand, since several commentors on this sight prefer to not include “thinks black people are inferior to white people” as part of their definition of racism, it does seem that many white people seme to want to define racism however they please, for their own maximal benefit.
The point of the racism/bigotry distinction is that actions or attitudes which unjustly judge people based on their group, and which are tied into hundreds of years of tradition of doing so, and which are tied into formal power structures that support doing so, have vastly more power than actions or attitudes which unjustly judge people based on their groups, and which run counter to the power structure. Racism is restricted to those situations in which personal bigotry is hugely amplified by the existing power structures, otherwise, it is just personal bigotry.
There are some situations in which a black person can have a great deal of personal power over a white person, and that therefore the black person’s personal bigotry can have a real harmful effect on the white person, but the power structures involved are not institutional racist power structures, they are generally either power structures of wealth, or power structures of local social reputation, or power structures of local violence. Obviously, bigotry combined with any of these power structures can lead to real harm, but their effects are fairly quickly swamped by the counter-reaction of the racist power structures.
A universal rights view should not treat the harm caused by personal bigotry as non-existent, but it should not ignore the role that context plays, and the way that a harm can be magnified by larger structures of injustice.
I think you are entirely wrong, although I can see how you might think that if you are (understandably) largely ignorant of the larger power structures of racism in the US. Perhaps you are unaware that The Bell Curve was a best seller that was treated as controversial but respectable, while the Isis Papers is largely unknown, and redfem commented that it was only brought into discussion (in her class) because ripping it apart intelligently can lead to some useful discussion, not because it is right and true.
I think that a limitation on the usefulness of most white people’s approximating experience is the failure to understand the difference that the larger racist power structures make. The basic, “Oh, I was mistreated as a child too, because I was a nerd/geek/social outcast” experience actually seems to be as likely to have an anti-approximating experience effect: “So I learned to treat people based on their individual merit, not their group traits, and black people should to,” or “but I overcame that adversity and now I am a highly successful lawyer, so why can’t black people do the same,” where the fact that the approximating bigotry against nerds/geeks/social outcasts is not backed by massive formal structures of power (indeed, the opposite, since what makes one a geek in highschool often makes one highly regarded a little later) is completely ignored.
My own approximating experience comes largely from the fact that my sister is black, and we grew up in overwhelmingly white suburbs of a liberal Southern college town (Chapel Hill). So I got to see her experiences as she was driven from being one of two black kids in her social circle, to gradually having a predominantly black social circle, as the inertia of who do you live near was replaced by who isn’t going to betray you.
Particularly memorable points were when her not-quite boyfriend (who was white, and mostly not-quite her boyfriend because his parents didn’t want him dating a black girl) relented and agreed that he could go to the junior-prom with her, on condition that they didn’t have a prom picture taken (“It’s not that we mind, its just that it would upset some of our relatives”). That was pretty much the point at which my sister stopped dating white boys.
Another memorable point was when she was the first black home coming queen in the history of our high school, and the (all white) year book committee somehow managed to “forget” to include a picture of the home coming queen that year.
The third memorable point was when she transferred from NC State (premier Ag-Tech school in NC) to NC A&T (premier but woefully underfunded historically black Ag-Tech school in NC) after a year of general racial harassment that ended with her white roommate (who had been reasonably supportive throughout the year) decided to join one of the more racist sororities.
That someone who had just witnessed and seemingly understood all of the harassment my sister had undergone that year would turn around and decide that it would be fun and beneficial to ally herself with the very racist institutions that had been harassing my sister was sort of the ultimate proof of the power of privilege, and the difficulty of getting support and alliances across boundaries of privilege.
Hmm. Perhaps, in a larger context, you are correct and I am wrong (in everyday life, it is logical that the minority/non-powerful side receives more racism than the majority/powerful side).
I don’t think Bell Curve is really comparable to Isis Papers. Bell Curve is kind of racism -lite (and may be scientifically true, the debate is on. Personally I’m more of a culturalist.), while Isis Papers is really overt supremacism, not mere statistics and averages (as Bell Curve).
This part does support my view. In this case: White racism = statistically blacks have lower IQ, Black racism = Whiteness is a mutation, and whites oppress blacks out of jealousy.
Uh, I hope I haven’t reincarnated the old debate here…
Yes, but one of them is a tool used in a system of oppression, and the other is largely irrelevant or used as a mirroring tool to talk about supremecist views, and it is the racist tool that is acceptible, and the teaching tool that isn’t.
Note that the Isis Papers was brought up in the context of approximating experiences. Apparently, reading the Isis Papers provided a very solid approximating experience (face to face with unashamed bigotry and supremacism, in which you were posited as the undermensch), but I think you are wasting the experience by trying to use it to prove that black people can get away with supremecist views while whites can’t. You are pretty obviously wrong on that point (compare if you will, the number of Klansmen murdered by the police to the number of Black Power leaders murdered by the police, and then consider that the Black Power organizations didn’t actually conduct campaigns of murder and terrorism against entire populations for decades), while the experience of being the target might be useful for thinking about structures of unashamed bigotry, and how they connect to and gain their power from institutional (and covert) racism, and how the Isis Papers doesn’t tie into such a structure, so it is basically powerless.
Context matters, a lot.
As such, it works.
About the social structure angle, well, the problem there is always the prevalence/measurement of the said structures and how much of the opposite is then justified. I’ve never seen a comprehensive measurement, and I don’t think it can even exist.
Historical arguments are also sort of problematic, and tend to lead to resentment and/or entitlement, two sides of the same coin, (as an approximating experience, I could justify bigotry toward Russian people on hereditary grudge -angle. It is better to not go down that road, though. I’ve seen how futile it is on some of my relatives).
There are problems in the universalist approach, though, but the relativist approach seems too complicated for me :P.