It seems that about 1/4 of the readers of this magazine were offended by this cover. I can’t even feign any sort of objectivity on this subject. I usually try to be the semi-neutral academic blogger, but I can’t figure out why people would view breastfeeding as gross, disgusting, or sexual. I just had a big debate between myself and all but 2 (out of 18) of my students on the subject of breastfeeding. The majority of students felt that is was “icky” and should be done in private. Of course these same students also didn’t know about the health benefits of breastfeeding, how often it needs to be done, and the numerous studies showing that breast milk is generally healthier than infant formula. They were clueless. Now I’m an educator, and I have come to expect this sort of reaction; however, it is usually a small but vocal minority of students, not the vast majority of the class. The funny thing is that these are the same people who are not the least bit offended at the latest Maxim cover or numerous pictures of Pam Anderson with her breasts equally exposed, but suddenly when breasts are used for what they are actually for people get loopy.
The magazine was reporting on a survey from the American Dietetic Association, and the findings of that study are even more depressing:
The picture in Babytalk was aimed at illustrating the controversy surrounding breastfeeding in the United States, where a national survey by the American Dietetic Association found that 57 percent of those polled are opposed to women breastfeeding in public and 72 percent think it is inappropriate to show a woman breastfeeding on television programs.
So most of the people in this random sample survey think that women should not breastfeed in public (I wonder if the survey asked how many opposed those Maxim covers???).
The good news is that in spite of the general opposition to breastfeeding in public, most states (32) have laws allowing women to breast feed anywhere. However, there are still states that do not have such laws, and more laws are need to protect breast feeding mothers and their children. Here is a brief summary of some of the breastfeeding laws from the National Council of State Legislatures:
- Thirty two states allow mothers to breastfeed in any public or private location (California, Colorado, Connecticut, Delaware, Florida, Georgia, Hawaii, Illinois, Indiana, Iowa, Kentucky, Louisiana, Maine, Maryland, Minnesota, Missouri, Montana, Nevada, New Hampshire, New Jersey, New Mexico, New York, North Carolina, Oklahoma, Ohio, Oregon, Rhode Island, South Dakota, Utah, Texas, Vermont and Virginia). Fifteen states exempt breastfeeding from public indecency laws (Alaska, Florida, Illinois, Michigan, Montana, Nevada, New Hampshire, North Carolina, Oklahoma, Rhode Island, South Dakota, Utah, Virginia, Washington and Wisconsin).
- Ten states have laws related to breastfeeding in the workplace (California, Connecticut, Georgia, Hawaii, Illinois, Minnesota, Rhode Island, Tennessee, Texas, and Washington).
- Ten states exempt breastfeeding mothers from jury duty (California, Idaho, Illinois, Iowa, Kansas, Minnesota, Nebraska, Oklahoma Oregon and Virginia).
- Four states have implemented or encouraged the development of a breastfeeding awareness education campaign (California, Illinois, Missouri, and Vermont).Nevertheless, it is still shocking to see such a low level of support for breastfeeding in the general public.
Nevertheless, the controversy over the cover and the ADA survey indicate that the social support system for breastfeeding is lacking. In spite of the numerous medical and social benefits to breastfeeding, there still seems to be a notion that breastfeeding should be hidden from public view.
Here’s More Info. on Breastfeeding Rights:
A Summary of States’ Breastfeeding Laws from the National Council of State Legislatures.
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I’m in the minority view among our crowd on this one, so I hope you’ll indulge me a brief analogy.
I don’t view urination as “gross, disgusting or sexual” either, but I do tend to view it as private. I know it doesn’t bother some folks (mostly guys) to urinate in public, but it does make me uncomfortable, as I believe there are facilities specifically designated for that perfectly natural bodily function and they should be made use of in order minimize societal discomfort. I realize the bladder’s a difficult thing to control, but we’re adults, we learn how to control difficult things because lack of said control is often seen as inappropriate and selfish. There’s no need to go out of your way to offend someone when you can just wait awhile and use the appropriate agreed-upon facility.
The hungry baby isn’t an adult. Why does she/he have to wait so you can feel more comfortable ?
Elayne,
A few points. 1) Is that there generally are not places available for women to “privately nurse.” Certainly a public bathroom is not acceptable because of the germ factor. I know I wouldn’t eat there. 2) We are talking about eating, not unrinating of deficating. If adults can eat in public, babies should be able to eat in public too. Personally, I wouldn’t put eating and those two things in the same category. 3) Is it really a mother’s fault that others are offended or it is their own fault? If people are uncomfortable with public breastfeeding, then they can turn away and not look?
Last, I always appreciate a dissenting opinion.
It is my opinion that people are so offended by breast-feeding mothers because of the Maxim covers. xP Maxim and other publications assigns breasts to a single sexual role as defined by a patriarchic gaze. We have become so used to seeing them through this male gaze that when breasts are being regular old breasts and feeding babies, it’s unsettling for people. As a friend of mine once said, breast-feeding defeats the sexual fantasy associated with breasts.
Though I can sympathize with someone being squicked by breast-feeding (I suppose it happens, we’re allowed to be grossed out by whatever we want), I’ve still got to agree with Rachel, Elayne. Never while I was wandering around after my mom when my two sisters were breast-feeding infants did I ever see a designated breast-feeding station in any mall. There is no space in the public sphere for mothers to breast-feed. (:P I did have an uncle ask her not to breast-feed in front of him in her own home though.)
i believe this is the issue in a nutshell. it’s perfectly ok to show “girls gone wild” commercials plastered all over the media, with barely a light filter over the “girls” breasts, and penthouse/playboy magazines on display in every newstand. and of course, it’s perfectly ok to scowl at the mother of a screaming and hungry infant. but you know, to actually use a breast for what god (or insert your deity of choice) intended, *when* god (or your infant) intended, then all bets are off. then it’s “dirty” or “disgusting”.
i agree with katie as well – i’ve never seen a “designated” breast-feeding station anywhere. and frankly, i’d be horrified if i were to see one. unless of course, we started forcing feeding adults to also perform that function in private.
I have publicly and opening breastfed my child in a wide variety of settings, including the mall, bookstores, restaurants, even a car dealer (though I did ask if there was an open office available, though I didn’t specify exactly why, I think the reason was pretty clear). I used to think I’d never breastfeed a toddler in public (infants are OK but toddlers aren’t, in many people’s minds), but it’s a hell of a lot easier to shut up a cranky and hungry toddler by cramming a nipple in her mouth than deal with a public tantrum (particularly when sippies and Cheerios have been offered and refused).
One of the things that is most frustrating about the coverage (ahem) of this controversy is that most of the articles talk about how 25% of the reactions have been negative. Hello, that means that 75% have been positive or neutral, which means that general opinion is 3 to 1 in favor of the cover. The spin focuses on the negative and makes nursing mothers feel even more excluded and unnatural.
I also agree with Katie: the primary reason that so many people who are squicked by breastfeeding is that it challenges the notion that breasts are exclusively (or even primarily) sexual objects, existing for the purpose of [male] sexual gratification. Breastfeeding is an affirmation of the original evolutionary purpose of mammary glands: nourishing the young.
For what it’s worth, in all the random places I have nursed my child, I have never once had anyone question what I was doing. On the few, rare occasions that anyone has made any comment to me about what I was doing, that comment was positive. I have been many times at the ready to launch a vehement defense if anyone challenged me, but I have never needed to. So, if anyone out there is trying to decide whether to publicly breastfeed and is unsure about how people will react, I think that public, in-your-face criticism is less frequent than you might fear. Go ahead and feed your child.
I’m a bit puzzled by the argument that equates breastfeeding with urinating or defecating. There’s a good reason why you’re not supposed to urinate in public: not because it’s gross but because it’s very unhygienic and may spread disease. There’s nothing at all unhygienic about breastfeeding in public, on the contrary, it has many health benefits for mother and baby.
Of course these same students also didn’t know about the health benefits of breastfeeding, how often it needs to be done, and the numerous studies showing that breast milk is generally healthier than infant formula.
I suspect that’s the case for a lot of people who think that it’s reasonable to expect a mother to breastfeed in private. At a certain stage in a baby’s developement they are feeding pretty much constantly – that would effectively make a mother a prisoner in her own home.
Quite apart from the morality of asking a woman not to leave her house for months at a time, it’s just not bloody practical. Especially if she has other children that have to be provided with things like food and clean clothing.
I’m all for women breastfeeding in public. For one thing, it might remind people what breasts are really designed to do: Feed a baby not a man’s ego. Not that breasts can not be fun play things, but by viewing breastfeeding as offensive and even in some cases, obscene behavior, it’s clear that some re-education is needed
I’m all for women breastfeeding whereever they wish to do so. I nursed all my children until they grew teeth and begin to bite me instead of nurse. And I realize that most men (hell most of society) sees breasts as sexual objects. I see my breasts as both a food source for nursing infants and as a source of sexual pleasure. Do those two things need to be mutually exclusive?
Okay, over under pool here – how many posts before some troll comes in here and accuses radfem of promoting reeductation camps? I’m betting 10.
I dunno, it seems like there are way too many people in this country who believe they have the right to be shielded by everything that offends them. And I’d like to blame this on on the religious right, but this breast feeding thing seems to spread across all social circles. We got some fucked up people in this country, and we have to do something about it.
I think we need more magazines with breastfeeding babies on every newsstand. People need to become desensitized to seeing breasts used for their actual purpose.
I am not very familiar with breastfeeding. But can’t people use pumps to obtain breast milk so it can be stored? And while I’m sure breastfeeding has health benefits, would mixing and using formula if your kid gets hungry in public prompt some sort of medical emergency?
I can’t help but feel lactivism is mainly ideological and driven by nothing more that the romantic fetishism of mothers and babies. I don’t think I’ve read a single pro-breastfeeding piece where the author hasn’t gone off on a soliloquy about Maxim covers and how the general public are tragically ignorant about the true purpose of the breast, I think that’s telling. I’m sure breastfeeding has health benefits and mothers get a lot of emotional satisfaction out of it, but the speed with which people jump from that to a position where we need to enact laws to give mothers rights to breastfeed and arrange things so that public decency laws don’t apply to them makes me think there’s much more going on.
Seriously: I grant you that breastfeeding has health benefits, but I seriously doubt that a no breastfeeding in public policy causes tangible harm to babies. I suspect what this is really about is people’s vision of motherhood and their attempt to get other people to give it and them the respect they think they deserve.
Sweet….bedda….matri!…..
The first post. The very first one! comparing breastfeeding to urinating.
(Lubu pounds head repeatedly into desk, comes up for air, sucks teeth, and begs for patienza…)
Elayne. Please ask yourself why you felt compelled to compare breastfeeding to urinating. Go ahead, ask. Because all breastfeeding is, is another form of eating. That is all the baby is doing when breastfeeding—simply eating. Breastmilk is food.
I have yet to meet anyone who is repulsed by eating, even public eating, such as in cafes and restaurants. I have met many people who are repulsed by breastmilk even as they extol the virtues of other forms of dairy. Why? I don’t think it’s just the sexual element of the breast, but the idea that women’s bodies, in general, are unclean. Or untamed. Or both. There is the idea that we are unsanitary, wild, too “earthy”, and hence, unholy.
Think about it.
radfem:
Yeah. Frankly, even as a woman who is never likely to need ’em for their actual intended purpose, it sounds like a good idea. Lalubu’s point that even women are reacting negatively to the breast “working” in public because we have internalized the notion that anything coming from a woman’s body must be “unsanitary” is also a valid one.
Also, is it just me, or didn’t we already have the comparison of breast-feeding to excretory functions here a year or so ago– with the person who doggedly insisted that the comparison was valid being vastly outvoted by nearly everyone else ?
It’s a little sad to me that we’re having the discussion all over again. Like nobody learned anything the last time out.
To Elayne – eating is not private, it is social. It always has been. Babies eat breastmilk. It’s normal. Feeding them petroleum by-products from a plastic cylinder is not normal.
I am sick to death of breastfeeding-is-like-pissing analogies. With all due respect, screw you.
The Bible and Christian literature are full of references to breastfeeding as a holy, beautiful act that mirrors the relationship between Christ and the Church. Show me where it says that about pissing.
In plenty other parts of the world breasts just aren’t sexualized the way they are here – this is something particular to our culture, and for the sake of our and our childrens’ health, we need to get over it. If children don’t see women breastfeeding, of course they will think it’s weird.
To me this is the triumph of consumerism, pure and simple. Take something that is totally healthy and available for free, and demonize it so you can replace it with an inferior product for which we have to pay. What a freaking racket.
1.) You can’t just pull out a bottle of formula and give it to a baby who is used to drinking fresh milk from a breast. They won’t take it.
2.) Stored milk must be kept cold and reheated. Unlike formula (for which you can just open a fresh can), it has not been pasturized and goes bad very quickly (unless frozen, but frozen breast milk must be slowly defroted in the fridge).
3.) Getting a baby to take BOTH bottle and breast is very tricky. If you give a bottle at all during the first five weeks, many babies will refuse to take the breast. If you don’t get them to accept a bottle shortly thereafter, most babies won’t take a bottle. We weren’t able to get our son to take a bottle. We just went straight to a sippy cup when he was old enough.
4.) When nursing is what you’ve decided to do, and it fits into the rhythm of you life, it is not simple to change that rhythm (or actually, to get the baby to accept a change in that rhythm) – and why should I have to do it when you can just not look!
As I said, my main reason for demanding the right to breastfeed in public is because doing otherwise is terrifically inconvenient for me. But, yes, I do expect my right to feed my child as I see fit to be respected. That is radical because…? Respect is not a scarce resource. When I demand some for myself it does not necessarily have to come from someone else. I’m not telling bottlefeeding mothers to keep their bottles out of public because it doesn’t conform to my vision of what motherhood should be (in fact, I respect the fact that they know their babies, themselves, their lives and their needs better than I do and made the best choice for themselves). People who are uncomfortable with public breastfeeding can just not look.
yes, breast pumps can be used. In fact, any woman who works outside the home and breastfeeds is already using one. Breastpumps are not anywhere near as effective at keeping supply up, even if you rent a hospital-grade breastpump (which I did). It is much easier to breastfeed your child when out in public, rather than carry all the necessary breastpump equipment (in addition to your child, a diaper bag, and whatever bag you’re probably already carrying for you own mundane stuff). Plus, there’s finding a “private place” to pump, an electrical outlet, and a clean, sanitary place to transfer the breastmilk to sterile bags/jars, and wash out the equipment. Plus, you’ve got to hold those things onto your boobs with both hands. And it takes at least twenty minutes. With all that in mind, why not just breastfeed directly to the breast?!
It wouldn’t be a health emergency for the baby to receive formula, no. But it could be for the mother. Have you ever heard of mastitis? Again, why should formula (another thing to spend money on/carry around) be used in public rather than free, readily available, just-the-right-temp, and already being carried around breastmilk?
For that matter, why are breasts the subject of “public decency laws”? Can anyone explain to me why breasts are any more indecent than say, hands? Elbows? Feet?
You know what I hear, when I hear these arguments about “privacy” and “indecency” and the idea that mothers who breastfeed in public are being rude and infringing on the rights of others? The same old story—-that women should “know their (our) place” and voluntarily remove ourselves from fully participating in the public sphere. Because let’s face it, any objection to public breastfeeding, or laws that require workplace accommodations for breastfeeding, are asking for artificial limits to be placed on “uppity” women who demand the right to full participation as citizens. That we should either voluntarily remove ourselves from the public eye when/if we become mothers, or that heavy public pressure, scorn, or obstacles in the form of “decency laws” should be exerted against us for not “knowing our place”. For daring to retain our autonomy, our economic independence.
And do I really need to mention the classism inherent in this?
Look. I expect this attitude and treatment from the right. But from feminists?! Breastfeeding seems to be one of those issues where many people on the left and the right agree; that women who do so in public are transgressors. Why?
I’m not a “lactivist”. I’m not interested in preaching the gospel of breastmilk; I assume folks can make up their own mind about what is best for them. I just didn’t particularly care for being pointed at, stared at, whispered about, gestured about, eyerolled about, and getting to “accidentally” overhear passive-aggressive commentary about how “some women…….blah blah blah……rilly!” in their best Valley Girl speak, from total strangers. That’s where the “lactivist” attitude comes from—having to deal with that kind of bullshit on a constant basis whenever you appear in public.
And yes, it’s sexist. I’ve witnessed a lot of nose-picking, belching, farting, ass-scratching, ball-jiggling and other activities generally regarded as “impolite” by men. Yet, I’ve never seen any men be accosted or asked to apologize or go somewhere else with that behavior. Is breastfeeding really more obnoxious than the above activities? Or is it just that women are easier targets? Seriously. I don’t really care if you find breastfeeding repugnant, as long as you don’t feel the need to share that with me. If it’s so offensive, turn your damn head, just like you do for the man who is digging in his ass. Why is that so hard?
Let’s keep this discussion civil please. Name calling is not going to win anybody over.
Even if we grant nik’s assertion that the costs of banning breastfeeding are relatively low, we still haven’t established that there’s any tangible cost to allowing breastfeeding. The costs of banning green shirts are relatively low too, but that’s not an argument for banning green shirts, since there’s no costs to allowing them.
And in terms of forcing acceptance of one particular vision of motherhood, it seems that that’s exactly what banning breastfeeding does. Nobody’s proposing that we force mothers to breastfeed. It’s just a matter of making either option reasonably accessible to people.
In terms of sexuality, I think what really bothers people about breastfeeding, public or otherwise (because there are lots of people who get various kinds of squeamish just talking about it) is that, despite its primary purpose of feeding, it is also an expression of mother-child eroticism/sensuality. While I know from watching my wife and other women breastfeed their children over time that there are times when it can be a pain in the ass, it also, inevitably, at least for the mothers and children I know, creates a physical/erotic/sensual bond between them and that conjures up all sorts of taboos, from incest to the big male dominant no-no of never, once you’re grown, never succumbing to that bond again.
And I want to second what Kate and La Lubu said about the relative difficulties of using a breastpump and pumped breastmilk. My wife used a pump so that I would be able to feed our son breastmilk–it was almost impossible to get him to take formula–when she was out and I was home with him. For a very brief time, when this happened on a regular basis—I don’t remember exactly why—0ur son got used to it and actually started calling the bottle “daddy’s breast” in Persian, which was the language we spoke with him pretty much exclusively until he was somewhere between 1 and 2. But once our schedule went back to what was normal for the time, which was for my wife to be home with him pretty much all the time, that went out the window and it was almost impossible to get him to take formula or the pumped breastmilk.
The only time that breastfeeding “in public” has ever seemed inappropriate to me—and the example I am going to give is not really “in public” in the sense of being out on the street, but rather “in public” in the sense of being in front of other people who are not part of your “private sphere”—was when a woman breastfed her daughter in the middle of a job inerview. Three of us at my college, two men and the woman who was in charge, were interviewing a woman for a position as an ESL oral skills instructor. When the woman showed up with her daughter and asked if she could stay in the room while the interview was taking place, we said sure, and the mother sent the girl to sit on a chair, where the girl sat quietly playing with a toy or maybe coloring, I don’t remember which. At some point during the interview, the girl got up and said something quietly to her mother, at which her mother turned to us and said, “I’m sorry, but my daughter is hungry,” pulled up her shirt and allowed her daughter to nurse, and she did not continue with the interview until the girl had finished.
After the interview was over, the woman who was in charge—she was chair of the department where the interviewee would have taught had she gotten the job—was livid. It was not the breastfeeding itself that bothered her, or any of us for that matter, and it became clear as we discussed it that, had we been in a different, non-professional setting, or even had the woman already been a school employee, it would have been perfectly fine with us if the woman had done what she did. But in the middle of a job interview, it seemed to indicate a lack of professionalism that was unacceptable, especially to the woman in charge, which was a shame. We really needed the instructor, and if the woman had simply asked if there was a room she could go to, we would have said yes, and when she came back, the interview would have continued and she would most probably have gotten the job.
I should add that this happened long before I got married and my own experience with breastfeeding mothers began, and so I wonder if this were to happen now, even though I still think it is pretty unprofessional behavior, I would find myself in as strong agreement with the woman who was in charge as I did then.
Breast is Best.
Its easy and catchy.
This is one area where I would absolutely say it is OK to take the
“you’re a prude” gloves off. This is for the health of the child.
It is also for the health of the mother. So don’t allow yourself or partner to be bullied.
As a side issue so what if breasts have been sexualized. It does not matter, we should be adults about this. If the sight of a breast can cause a sexual association I say get over it. Anything can be associated with anything but we have taken an arbitrary line and closed off certain functions from public view or discussion. It is allowed because the cost is low. Not breastfeeding your child can impose a high cost and therefore should not be discouraged.
When the baby’s young and nursing frequently, missing even one feeding can be damned uncomfortable for the mother (I remember when my first had a stomach upset and couldn’t nurse for better than eight hours; for the only time in my life I had The Breasts That Would Not Sag. They went, I kid you not, numb from being too full, and I’m sorta surprised he didn’t drown when he was allowed on again); if the mother has mastitis, nursing on that side first every feeding is recommended as part of the treatment, and it is possible, though it isn’t the best way, to get rid of mastitis just by aggressively stripping the breast. Clogged milk ducts can also be helped by letting the baby suck vigorously on the affected side.
I think one thing, that people who don’t have babies, don’t recognize is thier need for regularity. Some people with bottlefed babies may never have thought about it on these terms, because they aren’t asked to disrupt their feeding routines the way women who breastfeed are. We may have different schedules at the weekend or on vacation, etc. – the baby does not. Whether we breast or bottle feed, the baby wants it to be pretty much the same – all the time. Many people I know who bottle fed, or who trained their breastfed babies to take bottles for daycare, only one, specific type of nipple would be accepted. Formula fed babies often will only accept one specific type of formula. Now I’m sure there are some flexible babies out there who are happy with anything, but that doesn’t do you any good if you don’t have one of them.
My main feelings, looking at the magazine cover in question, are nostalgia and a little envy. My critter is past the breast feeding stage. It was a lot of fun (though sometimes a pain) while it lasted. I am fortunate enough to live in New York, where breast feeding in any location is legal and, in NYC at least, more or less accepted. Although my critter did take breast milk from a bottle when she was with her father or grandmother, she would never accept a bottle if I was there: babies know when their preferred food source is around. And really, how much breast does anyone see when a baby is breastfeeding? The baby covers most of the breast and a blanket or shirt can generally cover the rest.
Nik: Kate pretty much said it all, but many breastfed babies won’t take a bottle (mine wouldn’t, even with pumped breastmilk). Formula tastes different, and some babies won’t take it, either. Introducing a bottle is a delicate process that isn’t always successfully accomplished, particularly if the mother isn’t regularly pumping and bottlefeeding. If you’re only trying to do it for occasional feedings, it’s pretty hard to manage. Furthermore, decent pumps are very expensive (over $200!). I chose not to buy an electric pump because I wasn’t intending to return to the workforce while my child was still nursing (at least exclusively). Hand pumps are a nuisance and not very effective. Furthermore, if I’m toting along pumped milk (or even formula) when out for the day, I have to cart along sufficient chilled milk to last the entire outing. My breasts are always with me, and they make as much fresh milk as my child wants at any one feeding (no more, no less, though in the early weeks, the balance wasn’t quite so set). Breasts are an on-demand feeding system: if you skip a feeding, then the body says to itself, “hmm, less milk needed, I’ll make less.” So, a nursing mother who skips a session to feed a bottle while out shopping may be jeopardizing her milk supply. One time does not ruin her milk supply, of course, but if she does so on a regular basis, she could have a real problem. Many working women lose their milk when they return from maternity leave and start pumping, precisely because the pump is less effective than the baby at stimulating milk production and because the inconvenience of it all leads to skipped pumping sessions.
Better education of the public about breastfeeding and what it involves would probably go a long way to reducing opposition to public breastfeeding.
It’s odd, because I can usually understand(somewhat) the controversy in such things. Not here. This is one of the most beautiful pictures that I’ve ever seen. And look at those cheeks and neck! The head on that little one is even starting to look like a breast.
The “debate” on breastfeeding is absurd.
That said, I think this pic has been shopped…
bean: Ok, I may have been being unrealistic. In fact, not only was my critter unhappy with anything covering her head, by the time she was old enough to have opinions she developed an embarassing desire to hold the contralateral breast while nursing. Not a discreet (or do I mean discrete?) child. I had sort of thought she was atypical, though. Perhaps not…In any case, I don’t think a stranger has ever actually seen more of my breasts while I was breast feeding than he or she could have seen if I’d been wearing a bathing suit. The baby’s head covers the breast quite nicely.
Mine used to like to play peekaboo with my shirt and breasts; he’s another less-than-discreet child.
Amazing to think that when I was nursing my second my then-thirty-three-year-old breasts had the power to inspire both passion and disgust in those who might see them, a power they certainly never had when covered with a thin layer of t-shirt. Evidently nursing makes your breasts more attractive; they certainly had the power to make a two-year-old cover twenty feet in three seconds, and completely silence him, too, a power possessed by no other object upon this earth.
Everyone has pretty much said it all already . . . Richard Jeffrey Newman, my rule of thumb regarding breastfeeding is that, if it would be acceptable for everyone else to be eating it’s okay for the baby to eat. So for me, breastfeeding is not appropriate at a normal job interview (esp. for a toddler whose needs are not the same as a baby’s) or a live performance (as opposed to a movie, where people eat all the time). That seems rather evenhanded to me, although I can think of exceptions, like public transportation, where people don’t eat but where I think nursing would not be out of place.
Breastfeeding is not a problem, and the “solutions” of formula and pumping are much more costly and inconvenient than most people realize. Nursing is all about routine. In addition to being a royal pain, a pumping schedule only works if it’s part of a nursing schedule. You don’t decide to pump before going to the mall so you will have some milk to feed from a bottle. It doesn’t work that way. Formula tastes very different from breastmilk and is also expensive.
When I go to a public place where I might have to nurse, I just tell the people I’m with I might need to nurse. I don’t ask, but I do warn. Those who get crabby about women nursing in public should realize that, on the whole, most women don’t relish nursing in public — for one thing, when your baby is over a certain age, he or she gets distracted and doesn’t nurse as well (at least this is true with my babies).
And for anyone who is wondering about a public place for nursing at a mall: Nordsrtom’s is your place. They have women’s lounges in just about every store and there is a dedicated “baby feeding station” where women can sit and feed. They saved my day on more than a few occasions.
Most recently researched benefits of breast feeding: Children are able to soothe themselves better throughout their childhood; less likely for mother and baby to develop diabetes or obesity; fewer problems with teeth and gums.
I think Barbara has a good guideline because I too think Richards example of the job interview is simply not the right time. It wouldn’t be the right time fo an adult to eat (assuming this was the sit down portion of the interview.
But can’t people use pumps to obtain breast milk so it can be stored?
A bottle is, essentially, an artifical breast. Your question is a bit like saying “It’s rude and obnoxious to give a blowjob in public. Why can’t a couple who wants to engage in that behavior have the man whip out a dildo instead, so I don’t have to look at a real penis?”
I am not very familiar with breastfeeding.
Yet you feel confident enough in your knowledge to opine about whether women should or shouldn’t breastfeed in public, and to suggest alternatives.
My feeling about public breastfeeding was that the number of people offended by it was probably far less that the number of people who would be offended by listening to a screaming baby.
HAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAaaaa…… Being a european is so much better! We dont get shocked for this kind of picture…which is so pretty and so charming… I cant understant why people see this picture like gross, disgusting, sexual…
I heard this controversy on a radio news, as an anecdote and AMericans look really stupid!!
Come on people from AMERCIA!! get back to earth and try to see natural things as natural and dont be pervers all the time on these!
I’m not sure that comparing nursing to oral sex is an improvement over comparing it to excretion. :/
I’m not comparing nursing to oral sex. I’m noting the silliness of the argument that exposing a real body part is disgusting but exposing a plastic replica of that body part is A-OK.
I nursed both my children, and I did it whenever and where ever. My boys are 9 and 11 now, and all the women on my block with babies, are breastfeeding them. They do it right out in the open, sitting on their front porch, with all the neighborhood children running around and able to see. My children have no problem walking up to a breastfeeding woman, with breast in full view, and talking to her. I am very glad that they are growing up with this being normal behavior for them.
When I was nursing I found JC Penny’s to be a good place. They have rather nice comfy chairs in the women’s fitting area, and I never got too many cross looks.
I had a good experience with pumping and storing for my children while I was at work. I never lost volume of supply, that being said, I did pump at the same times my child would have nursed (every two to three hours) and rented a very good hospital grade pump. My employer’s medical department allowed my to pump in comfort and privacy as well as providing a freezer and cold storage for the bottles. I did this for the first five to six months of my children’s lives and it worked well as it afforded the grandparent’s and more importantly their father’s with the ability to feed the baby as well.
It is hard work to get the baby adjusted to both bottle and breast and some babies can not make the transition, but for me it wasn’t an option it was either breastfeed and pump or strictly bottle feed as I didn’t have the option of being a stay at home mom.
Myth, a bottle isn’t a breast replica in terms of what it LOOKS like, only what it WORKS like. And the general use of the word “replica” is about its VISUAL characteristics. C’mon, you know that.
This is one of those tricky areas for me. I like breast feeding; all our kids and all my friends’ kids are/were breastfed. It’s convenient, cheap, and healthy. I’d support my wife’s right to do it anywhere.
But OTOH I also realize that for many people–both men AND women–there is a social taboo over showing breasts. Is it silly? Yup. (There’s no reason women can’t go topless on beaches, either. There are no blinding laser beams emerging from their nipples which would put the sight of all males at risk.)
Still, I’m a little uncomfortable pretending that this taboo doesn’t exist. I’m a bit uncomfortable with the implication that anyone who doesn’t like to see another woman’s breats is a prude, or a right wing nut, or a baby-killing formula addict, or a masturbatory perverted drooler. I think many lactivists are sort of a pain in the tush and this may be a backlash against that. There’s a difference between saying “I’m feeding my baby now” and saying “I’m feeding my baby now. See? See my BREAST? DOesn’t look so sexy NOW, does it? Huh? It does? You pervert. It’s functional. How dare you!” Yes, that was a joke, but my
exposure to many people suggests (anecdotally) that it can be a pretty, um, militant movement.
I laughed and laughed and laughed. Amen, sister!
As for the situation the post is discussing – well, hopefully by now people on Alas are well aware of my stance. I’m thinking I might start a breastfeeding pictorial roll-call so women can post beautiful breastfeeding pictures that the idiots can get all offended about until they finally wisen up and get the F over it.
Kim, that’s a great idea, kind of like the shape of a mother blog. (I’d contribute, but I don’t have any kids.)
Just link to La Leche. Their magazine ALWAYS has a breast feeding mom on the cover.
oops.
(scratches head in confusion) I went and googled their site so I could post the link, and to my surprise there’s no BF picture on the main page. Maybe they’re just trying to avoid pornsurfers.
Random anecdote time:
At the moment I’m spending a lot of time with my two girls and their two twin girl cousins. There’s usually a doll around and chances are better than 25% that the “baby” doll is getting breastfed by one of them. The other day my 4yo was in the car seat and started talking all about how she was “nursing the baby on my tiny little nipple and milk comes out but the baby is very small so it [I assume she meant the “tiny” part] is OK.” She kept on explaining it for almost a minute; my wife and I were laughing so hard we had to pull over.
My kids were both a bit less than discreet when nursing. When combined with a mother who wanted me to cover up with a blanket in 102 weather, rather than risk anyone seeing anything, we had a number of uncomfortable moments. My experience is that if you’re making any reasonable effort at being unobtrusive, very, very few people have any problems with it – or at least know better than to say anything!
My husband did complain about #1 son’s tendancy to expose Mommy in all situations, thinking it was under my control – up until we closed on our house and the realtor held him while I signed. When she stood up to hand him back, she discovered that our enterprising 9 month old had unbuttoned all but one button on her button-front dress. After that my husband shut up about my unreliable shirt fastenings.
#2 son just preferred nursing while draped over my shoulder, head down.
Both of these guys were nursed when and where they needed to. The only time we ever had a problem, I was nursing in the lounge area of a restroom. Based on that, my feeling is that those who wish to be offended by a breast, will be offended, pretty much no matter what the mother is doing.
I dont like feet. Feet squick me beyond belief. Especially male feet. I find them disgusting.
Know what I do in public places where Im liable to see feet?
I. Dont. Look.
It’s amazing. I actually have that degree of control over my eyes and *gasp* I exert that control.
I dont particularly care for tampon ads. Again, I does this amazing trick called ” looking away”.
People who eat with their mouths open? Absolutely disgusting. I dont look.
People who eat with their fingers? Just naseating. I dont look.
Low rise pants that show ass crack? HATE.
But, I dont look.
Nose pickers? I avert my eyes.
Mouth breathers? I look away.
There are all sorts of things I find offensive, many of which anti breast feeders are probably guilty of. Maybe I’ll start behaving in the manner thet do with breastfeeding moms. See how they like someone loudly discussing how disgusting their chewing is. Wonder aloud if they’ve actually been taught table manners. Ridicule them for any lack of it that can be found.
I’ll see if I can dredge up the picture of me nursing my first son, with my cat perched right on my knees in imminent danger of sliding off and looking extremely disgruntled.
Myth, a bottle isn’t a breast replica in terms of what it LOOKS like, only what it WORKS like.
Okay, so it’s acceptable to publicly fellate a dildo that’s designed to look like a leaping dolphin or a rabbit. ;)
Can you say “popsicle?”
or “lollipop?”“lollipop?”
heh.
;) lol
Hey, Kim–There is a breastfeeding pictorial roll call of sorts here. That’s me NIPping with the US Capitol and Supreme Court in the background. Boobs-a-flashing, as you can see!
Tapetum–Head down over your shoulder? Wow! That is one I have not seen.
I don’t have anything much of substance to add here, except that I learned last week during the Nursing Mothers Counsel of Oregon’s World Breastfeeding Week luncheon that a greater percentage of nursing moms are uncomfortable about actually nursing in public than members of the general public are seeing mothers nurse in public. Men are statistically more comfortable seeing NIP than women (big surprise!) and women over the age of 55 are least comfortable seeing NIP. I was too busy nursing my son at the time to note the specific stats, but found the trends interesting.
Yours in boob-flashing militancy,
The Reluctant Lactivist
Hey Chris! Great picts! I’m going to have to make some time once we get done with our almost month long cross country vacation seeing all the different relatives from both sides and soon to be selling Matt and Jake’s new book at GenCon (holy shit has it been that long?). Hopefully when we get home I can get involved with the NIPPERS more, I’ve been feeling guilty about pretty much being a turtle this summer with getting our summer cleaning and clearing out done, getting our play-yard done and then preparing for vacation. Makes me tired just thinking about it all!
Anyways…. Lucy Lawless certainly is the bomb!
I appreciate Nik’s willingness to admit that he or she doesn’t know very much about breastfeeding, but wish he or she had stopped there.
I’m sorry you mistake a parent taking care of her child for “lactivism” or a hostile act aimed at disgusting you, but that’s what you appear to be doing.
There does seem to be a great deal of self-righteousness on all sides of this issue, but perhaps it would help if people like Nik didn’t make women who just wanna breastfeed their babies in peace feel bad for doing so.
On the other hand, if you ever see a breastfeeder standing in the middle of the street yelling, “HEY, LOOK AT MY BOOBIES!!!!” then we’ll talk.
I think one problem is that there are two distinct meanings of “lactivism”. One is making sure breastfeeding is acceptable anywhere bottlefeeding is (do we need to say this is a positive goal?). The other is promoting breastfeeding as the Supreme Good, the only way to feed a baby and the only right and proper use of a breast (not a positive goal). Some people only encounter (or only notice) lactivists in the second group, which does tend to create an impression that breastfeeding in public is part of some self-righteous moral crusade.
It doesn’t help that breast vs bottle is one of the bitterest battles of the Mommy Wars…
And it’s not helped by some of the lactivists. For example, bitching that stores don’t allow use of their dressing rooms for breastfeeding. Well, stores don’t allow use of their dressing rooms for bottlefeeding, or for me to eat a sandwich or knit a scarf, either. Retail stores have every right to reserve their dressing rooms for the trying-on-of-garments; they aren’t lounges for everyone to use for whatever.
Personally, breastfeeding looks like it hurts because I can’t imagine putting my nipples in and having someone suck at them for a long period of time. Ouch, ouch, ouch. I don’t care to see it, but I am also easily able to avert my eyes, and I recognize that it’s my hangup, not the breastfeeding mother’s.
Julie, I don’t think there’s too many Americans who are shocked by this, frankly. I have no idea how this magazine gets distributed, so I wouldn’t necessarily take it’s membership as representative of America as a whole:
Katie, how old are you? Opposition to public breastfeeding by a minority of the public far predates Maxim, or even Playboy. In fact, I’d make the argument that public acceptance of public breastfeeding has been assisted by such magazines, by making exposure of the female body more acceptable overall.
The first time I saw someone publicly breastfeeding was when I was in college, about 1972. I was 19. My school had/has a large percentage of foreign students. I was working in a restaurant in the student center when the mother/sister (couldn’t tell) of a Middle Eastern/Indian sub-continent student had to feed their child. They stepped out of the restaurant, sat down on a bench off to the side, loosened their robe and fed their child. The robe was sufficiently concealing for this purpose. It was a curiosity, but nobody seemed offended at all. I certainly wasn’t. It wasn’t until about 15 years had passed before I saw someone born in the U.S. do this. My wife breastfed both our children for around 6 to 9 months (she could probably tell you to the day), and carried a small cotton blanket that, among other things, proved useful for this. She also used a breast pump, but that was a pain.
The funny thing is that these are the same people who are not the least bit offended at the latest Maxim cover or numerous pictures of Pam Anderson with her breasts equally exposed, but suddenly when breasts are used for what they are actually for people get loopy.
Hm, let’s not fall into this trap. Breasts are for whatever their owner wants to use them for. Feeding kids is one function, and a damn important one, but it’s not the only one. I certainly agree, though, that it makes no sense for people to get offended when someone is breastfeeding but not when breast are used sexually. However, my guess is that most people who are offended by the former are also offended by the latter.
I have yet to meet anyone who is repulsed by eating, even public eating, such as in cafes and restaurants.
You obviously weren’t present at my fraternity house the day I decided to eat a steak, spaghetti w/ sauce, mashed potatoes, salad, and ice cream dinner without using utensils. Apparently the National fraternity officers present were not amused. Most of my brothers were, though; I was unanimously elected the house Morale Officer.
You obviously weren’t present at my fraternity house the day I decided to eat a steak, spaghetti w/ sauce, mashed potatoes, salad, and ice cream dinner without using utensils.
Well, I wasn’t thinking of fraternity stunts or alcohol-influenced dares (at bar: “I’ll bet you can’t eat…..”). I was referencing another breastfeeding thread here that mentioned that any eating “on the street” was considered rude until fairly recently, which I balked at because street food and sidewalk/piazza cafes have been present in the Mediterranean for millenia. The idea was presented that breastfeeding was no less rude than any public eating; which doesn’t translate well if culturally, you think of public eating as convivial.
I picked up some more collage fodder off ebay last week. As NOTA is my witness, one of the finds is a 1957 Darigold manual for expectant moms. There’s a whole section on breastfeeding, and the full-color photo accompanying it looks a lot like the magazine cover here– except that in the vintage picture, you can see a little of the nipple.
It’s a mind-boggling thought that there’s some scenario in which this culture was less prudish in 1957 than it is now. Who knows, though. Maybe outraged parents wrote to Darigold out of horror at an actual photo of breastfeeding back then, too. :/
La Lubu, the best bit may have been when, immediately after eating, I was introduced to the National officers and proceeded to grab and vigorously shake both their hands.
But there would be harm to mothers, which affects the baby. Why should a new mother be forced to only be able to be out in public with her baby in two hour intervals, rushing home then to feed? This would create isolation among new mothers which makes dealing with a new baby ten times harder.
Yes, you can pump, but this milk needs to be refridgerated so that wouldn’t help a mother be able to venture out in to public for more than two hours. And as was stated previously, breastfed babies usually will not accept formula.
A breast is specifically for breastfeeding. Period. It was not designed to be sexual,only for feeding a baby. There is nothing gross,obscene, or disgusting about a woman breastfeeding her baby..Get over your squeamishness, grow up, and move on!!
Nik, I think you said it all with your very first sentence.
So let me guess… in your opinion breastfeeding mothers should
#1) Go out and buy a heavy duty double electric pump (which are quite expensive by the way and if they’re going to do it the way you suggest they better pay the price for it because manual pumps take WAY too long, not to mention; what if they needed to go on an outing for more than 3-4 hours),
#2) Tie themselves down to their pump at least an hour to 30 minutes before they are supposed to be somewhere (breastfeeding mothers have appointments to keep and schedules to go by too ya know),
#3) Go out and buy a stock supply of formual (also expensive a big reason why a lot of mothers breast-feed) just so they can use it when they go out in public? So what you are saying is that mothers can, instead of supplying their baby with the best nutrition at all times… substitute with a cow’s milk based formula that lacks over 100 important nutrients for a baby just because you feel uncomfortable with seeing a baby nursing or a tiny bit of flesh from a breast?
I have a feeling that nursing mothers are not going to feel the same way about this as you.
As far as you not knowing a lot about breastfeeding or being all too familiar with it… I suggest you educate yourself before you make these type of comments.
FYE (For Your Education) I suggest you Go visit
Sorry… Go visit this site.
I can see both sides, but one thing that bothers me is how hard is it to find a private place (i.e. public restroom)? And who cares if the bathroom is dirty, not to be blunt, but it is not like you are getting germs on your breasts! There is no reason why a woman can’t stand in a stall and breastfeed a baby. I speak from experience as I’m a mother and that is what I do. I have never had a problem where I was FORCED to breastfeed in public. It isn’t that hard to find appropriate places.
Regardless of how people view breasts (sexual or for feeding) the reality is in our culture people don’t go around with their breasts exposed. Just because you have a baby now, does not change our culture and the world around you. Find a bathroom people, it’s not that hard. And I’m sick of hearing people complain about it not being sanitary… for crying out loud, the baby doesn’t care if they are in a bathroom.
“I can see both sides, but one thing that bothers me is how hard is it to find a private place (i.e. public restroom)?”
Not hard at all. I suggest the people with the problem – those offended by infant feeding – do so, and stay there until the imaginary threat has passed. Enjoy.
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This is horrible. How is it that the rest of the world, yes, the entire world, supports breastfeeding anywhere the woman or baby needs to, yet, “the most advanced country in the world” does not????
It is a fact that the baby needs breastmilk for a min of 6 months, and the best outcome for the baby’s health is at least 2 years! (WHO recommends this) You would never never go and eat dinner in a public restroom, why should a poor little baby who’s immune system is still growing.
Please, look at all the exposed breasts on TV, in the magazines, in the movies, walking down the street. Yet, when they are actually used for what they are made for people freak out?
How can anyone actually compare a baby nursing, (eating dinner)! to urinating and defecating???? People walking down the street smoking and blowing the fumes into the air is a better comparison to getting rid of waste than a helpless little baby getting it’s nutrition.
I am a pregnant mom to be and I will breastfeed where ever the baby needs it. Grow up people! People who are opposed to breastfeeding and breastfeeding in public (like it or not, a baby needs to eat when it needs to eat) obviously have never had children, or if they have, they are not very good parents.
Look to the rest of the world, it’s not just the peasants or 3rd world nations, the entire world supports breastfeeding. What is wrong with my country???????????
Regardless of how people view breasts (sexual or for feeding) the reality is in our culture people don’t go around with their breasts exposed.
RE: WHAT??? yes, people, our “role models” in Hollywood especially do go around with their breasts exposed, and they are proud of it and think it’s “sexy”. (even though it’s not)
Just because you have a baby now, does not change our culture and the world around you. “Find a bathroom people, it’s not that hard. And I’m sick of hearing people complain about it not being sanitary… for crying out loud, the baby doesn’t care if they are in a bathroom.”
RE: The baby may not “care”, but the baby will be put in grave danger. Like it our not, the germs will get onto the breast, the germs are in the air, the baby is being exposed to germs. Lady, you really need to think twice, would you eat your dinner in a bathroom????
I am an obstetrician, I know the problems associated with not breastfeeding, I would never expose another human being to eating in a toilet or not getting the immunities only the breast can provide.
It wouldn’t be a health emergency for the baby to receive formula, no. But it could be for the mother. Have you ever heard of mastitis? Again, why should formula (another thing to spend money on/carry around) be used in public rather than free, readily available, just-the-right-temp, and already being carried around breastmilk?
RE: Actually, it is a health emergency for the baby to receive formula. Even the companies that make the formula will admit that the baby *needs* breast milk for at least 6 months. They have yet to perfect formula and it is actually very bad for babies; they will not have a good immune system and we will only create a world (actually an America) full of people with allergies (we’ve already started doing a good job of this). As for the mother, she is less likely to get breast cancer if she breast feeds. The benefits are endless. The World Health Organization does not just make this stuff up!!!
Right, our culture views the female breast in a sexual light rather than a utilitarian light, and that’s STUPID. Feminists are trying to CHANGE the culture. Men have decided that breasts exists for their titilation, which is simply not true. As a result, women have been forced to cover their breasts or be labeled “sluts” or “indecent.” Exposed male nipples are A-OK while exposed female nipples are shocking and disgusting!? Fuck that. Female breasts are for feeding human offspring.
If men find them sexually alluring, good for them. But women should not be punished or shamed for having them (or not having ones that are “big enough”). People need to get over their Puritanical fear of the female breast. They also need to get over thinking female breasts exist completely for male titilation.