Okay, so we’re making a few changes around here.
First of all, as many folks have noticed, there’s now a “report this comment to the moderators” link at the bottom of every comment. The link leads to this form; complaints put into that form are emailed to all the moderators. Hopefully, this will allow all of the moderators to be more aware of and quicker to respond to problems.
Second, we’re increasing the number of moderators. We now have five moderators: Rachel, Maia, and myself, and also two reader-moderators, Mandolin (welcome, Mandolin!) and Charles. If you’d like to be a moderator as well, please let me know; being a moderator is limited to feminists only, and only to those who aren’t opposed to enforcing moderately polite behavior on “Alas.”
Third, we’re adding a “progressive anti-racist commenters only” checkbox for some posts about racism. The goal of this is to prevent almost every discussion of racism from being turned into endless repeats of the same discussion (to paraphrase what someone said, “Rachel posts that something is racist, Brandon argues that it isn’t racist, repeat. Repeat. Repeat. Repeat.”)1
Fourth, we’re resolving to do a better job moderating out the Chrises and the Stevens and so on.
Let’s give it a couple of months and see how things go.
I still haven’t decided whether I want an alternate blog in which I can crosspost my posts and allow more conservative responses in the comments. I think that policy actually did help a bit when I was crossposting to “Creative Destruction,” if only because it made me feel freer to do more “Feminist only” posts here on “Alas.” But starting a second blog would mean more work for me, so I’m hesitant to do so. :-)
Speaking of reporting things to the moderators, let me say again that Akismet (the spamblocker “Alas” uses) sometimes mistakes real comments for spam. Due to a technical upgrade, I can now search the Akismet filter for the past two weeks, so it’s now easier than ever to “rescue” posts from Akismet — but we can’t do that unless you tell us that your comments have gone missing. So if you post a comment and it never appears and you never get a “in moderation” message, that probably means Akismet got it. Please get in touch with us when that happens.
Regarding comments on this post: Please don’t use comments here to continue the discussion that was going on earlier today in the “Moderation Policy” thread; I so need a break from that conversation. Instead, please use this thread to comment narrowly on these new changes (if you want to), and also to make other concrete, practical suggestions for improving “Alas.”
For instance, would people like seeing the sidebar in a different order? Or more information on the sidebar, such as a list of the most frequent comment-writers? Any features you’ve seen on other blogs you’d like to see on “Alas”?
UPDATE: Welcome also another new moderator: Myca!
- I actually think it’s important to have that discussion over and over again — in my opinion, if we want to change society we have to be willing to repeat these and similar arguments a thousand times over — but that doesn’t mean everyone has to do it, and it doesn’t mean we have to do it in almost every racism-related thread. [↩]
Seems like a good plan, Amp. Thank’s for everything you do around here.
I’d love to see new informational stuff in the sidebars. Things like commenter posting frequency would be cool. The “recent posts” list is kind of useless; it could go way down the sidebar and I wouldn’t cry.
Whatever you do, I appreciate the vast amount of work you put into this site.
I disagree. I really like this feature, especially so I can see new posts on threads I’m participating in. (Yeah, I could ask for comments by email, but I like to see who’s commenting on what all in one place.)
And I third the thanks.
Recent posts, as opposed to recent comments, Lu.
Lu,
There’s a recent posts list, and also a recent commented posts list. I think Robert is talking about the former. Are you referring to the latter?
I am referring to the latter. I stand corrected.
i think this is an extremely reasonable moderation policy. as for expending energy on an ancillary web sites such as “creative destruction” – i personally don’t have the bottle to go looking underneath that particular rock, and i wonder how many others might feel the same way. maybe it has a sort of slowing down for a train wreck appeal. but then, my reading it isn’t what it’s for, so that may be a “moo point” as joey would say.
I understand the reason for the “progressive anti-racist commenters” check box, but are you going to post some sort of definition of the term? It doesn’t seem likely that many people are going to self-identify as retrogressive pro-racists.
Also, would it be possible to post a link to the latest open thread in the sidebar (as well as some guidelines on what’s appropriate to post there)?
Instead of another blog, could you have two comment threads for certain posts? Click on one and you get the “Feminist only” comment thread, click the other and you get the “anyone can post” version? If labeled clearly, folks could pick which versions they wanted to read/comment on. The “Feminist only” comment threads could be moderated closely to keep out the ‘cris’ types and the MRAs, and the “anyone can post” versions moderated not so much with a read/post at your own risk type warning.
I don’t know enough about the blog software to know if that is even possible, but at least you would only have one blog to maintain.
I also think the “recent posts” list could go, or be moved to below the “recently commented posts” list.
I think the new changes sound good. I really like the “report this comment” link.
Thank you for all your hard work.
And welcome, Mandolin.
I’ve never seen a plugin for that, and I certainly couldn’t program it myself, so no, that’s not something I can do. (Anyhow, cross-posting really isn’t that much extra work.)
Paul1552, the checkbox will include a definition of the term, for the reasons you mention.
I’m with Robert and Lu re recent comments/recent posts: the former are great, the latter not so much. And congrats on settling on a new policy!
Random thoughts.
1. What everyone says about your efforts here: thanks.
2. What Robert, Lu & Sailorman said about Recent Comments/Recent Posts. Recent Comments is the first thing I look at when I visit; I never check Recent Postings.
3. My second most common activity is to check the friends/blogroll group. I click through a lot.
4. For what it’s worth, my third most common activity is reminding myself how to embed a hyperlink into comments. I know it’s inelegant, but it would be damned handy if the comments section said –
”
(Arguably it would be even handier if I could create a web macro to do this….)
5. On my Firefox browser, Preview Comments doesn’t work. It goes into a perpetual “Rendering Comments Preview…” mode.
6. Finally, the last time I observed Amp to cross-post to Creative Destruction was 1/1/07. I don’t recall any announced change in policy; I just figured Amp didn’t regard any of his more recent posts as warranting a cross-post. Did I miss something?
Whoops; let’s try that again:
4. For what it’s worth, my third most common activity is reminding myself how to embed a hyperlink into my comments. I know it’s inelegant, but it would be damned handy if the comments section said –
Thanks to everyone for compliments. I didn’t intend this to be “Amp appreciation thread,” however. :-)
* Unless someone says they like it, I’m going to get rid of the “recent posts” list, but of course the “recent comments” list will be kept.
* Nobody Really, I’ve changed the text of the “need to know?” sentence as you suggested. It’s nice to know that someone looks at at least one of those file.
* N.R., I’m going to try turning the current comment preview plug-in off and try a new one; once I’ve done that, please let me know if it works for you. (I’m using Firefox, by the way, and the current one does work for me.)
* I didn’t announce a policy change when I stopped posting to Creative Destruction; I just stopped posting there. So no, you didn’t miss any announcements.
Okay, I’ve installed a comment plugin with a different approach. Instead of having a “preview” function, it will now be possible for people to edit their comments for 30 minutes after posting (it is possible to adjust the time; does 30 minutes seem reasonable to people?).
Just click on your comment and you’ll be able to edit it.
So please test it out (you can use this thread, if you want) and let me know if it works for you. (It does require javascript to work).
Couple of additional moderation suggestions:
Consider
strikingrather than blanking unacceptable comments or parts of comments. Leaving the text visible has a number of advantages. It’s clear to everyone what the offence was, and what kinds of remark are being judged to be unacceptable, so other readers can learn. Also complaints of censorship are eliminated, as is any confusion caused by people responding to it before it was blanked.Consider automoderating rather than banning posters who make worthwhile contributions, but whose behaviour is consistently or repeatedly unacceptable.
I would emphasise that these should be considered as additions to your moderation arsenal, not replacements. At Feminist Critics, we’ve only banned one poster for his open refusal to accept our authority to moderate our own blog. I’ve warned two others that they face being put on automoderation, but not (yet) had to carry through.
Excellent idea. I think 30 minutes is reasonable — I most often see something I desperately want to fix, either formatting or “oh crud I forgot to say…,” right after posting.
I’m not sure I agree with this. I sometimes wish I knew what people were talking about, but sometimes I do, and I wish I didn’t, because the comment was truly vile. I think we all know or should know what’s beyond the pale. (And if in doubt, you can always ask before posting.)
(Adding this just to see if I can.)
(Yes, I can. I’m on IE. Yes, I know I’m a Philistine.)
Your new edit comments plugin doesn’t work for me (Linux/Konqueror).
yadda yadda
Hey! I can edit! Wahooo!
Lu (quoting me):
As I said, it is something for moderators to consider, not necessarily do on every single occasion.
It’s actually quite easy to not read a struck out sentence or paragraph. In fact, you have to make an effort to read it. The question then becomes: do you want to decide for yourself whether to read it, or do you want a moderator to make that decision for you?
We’ve never blanked on FCB. I’d consider it in cases like Chris’s attack on Pheeno, (which hasn’t been blanked. Don’t follow that link unless you really want to see something beyond the pale.)
If Chris had posted that on FCB, I would have put him straight onto automoderation, with no warning, and no opportunity to reoffend. But should such a post, once published be blanked? Here’s Pheeno’s response to another comment which was blanked before I saw it:
It would be paternalistic and arguably sexist to ‘protect’ her from what she doesn’t need protecting from. Not everyone is so robust, though, and there’s a strong possibility this could trigger someone else.
Testing testing
1, 2, 3
It’s not so exciting for me — I’ve been able to edit my comments all along. :-p
Hey, what do people think about paged comments (so that very long comment threads are divided into pages, rather than being all on one page?) Would that be a good thing, or a pain in the neck?
(Don’t even ask for threaded comments — sorry, threaded comment fans, but I don’t like them!)
Given the (I believe) very low number of Linux/Konqueror users of “Alas”, I might be willing to live with that. Sorry!
You raise some good points, Daran, some of which I’d thought of — I meant my “I’m not sure I agree” literally in this case. Unfortunately, for me struck text is as riveting as a car fire on the highway, for similarly reprehensible reasons. I’m not saying the moderators should therefore save us from ourselves, necessarily, but the temptation to gawk is strong.
I actually did see the comment you refer to, and it was not only vile but a rehash of previous vileness. Most comments I’ve seen deleted were 1) by known non-feminists posting in feminist threads 2) rehashing content that had already been deemed beyond the pale by a moderator, and (often) for which someone had already been banned, 3) removed at the author’s request.
I think the best argument (and one I for some reason just thought of, slow today) for deleting comments of types 1 and 2 is that they then can’t derail the thread.
As for dividing really long comments into pages, I don’t think I’d go for it. (As Amp points out on his original moderation page, though, paragraph breaks now and then are nice.)
I can’t resist the temptation to GAWK either. (Really geeky joke. You probably won’t get it unless you’re a Linux/Konqueror user.)
Testing.
No luck yet figuring out how to let non-moderators post images in comments, though.
testing testing
I don’t like it. Makes it too hard to follow the thread of a conversation in my opinion.
Amp writes:
Not wanting to mention that most recent dust-up, but if someone had an image they wanted posted, on account of the “a picture is worth a thousand words” thing, would you be willing to insert a poster-provided image?
“Not everyone is so robust, though,”
*flex*
The new changes look good. And the editing is cool.
Hey, you should add threaded comments. And whatever happened to the “recent posts” list? I used that all the time.
There is a problem. Everytime I highlight an quote from a post. It takes me to the editing function, and tries to makes me edit that particular comment. I just use the mouse and highlight the text, and without doing anything else it takes me to edit the comment.
May be a problem with the comment editor script.
RS
This is only going to be a problem for you, me, and the other moderators; for us, every comment is editable, so if we click on a comment’s text — even just to blockquote — it thinks we want to edit the comment.
What works for me is to start highlighting outside the text; that is, when you “click and drag” to highlight text, begin your click-and-drag motion outside the block of text. Then you can highlight text without turning the edit function on.
I know it’s a little inconvenient, but the only people it inconveniences are us moderators. And the nice thing about this system is that the whole “I forgot to preview” problem is eliminated. On the whole, the added convenience is (I think) going to be worth the added inconvenience.
Has the “possibly related posts” feature always been there, or is it something new? Either way, I really like it.
Thanks, Paul. I just added that plug-in today — and installing it in the sidebar took me to the limit of my (extremely lame) php-ing ability. :-)
pheeno:
???
That’s probably the sound of a “robust” person flexing her muscles.
Paul nailed it.
I’t’s pretty obvious that those white guys that Rachel S. talked about as thinking that NDN women are “subservient” never met you. :-)
They couldnt have actually met *any*, because in my 34 years of life around NA women, Ive yet to meet one who was.
This site is awesome for cat vaccuuming. Write a paragraph, come check Alas, delete some spam, write another paragraph… ;)
DMAF, please. If replies to a post are going to be restricted, can some note be placed on it so that those of us not eligible to reply to it will know that up front? Thanks.
I want to 2nd RonF. I just wrote a short note to maia pointing out that she hadn’t restricted her “After This We Can Talk Welfare Reform” post only to see the check box at the very end.
Of course, the flip side is if you put it at the top than people will forget about it after 99 comments.
So I’m not really helping much. Sorry
(What does DMAF mean?)
Bean, I can see how that would happen. I sort of realized that in the middle of what i wrote above. Since I’ve now spent more time talking about it than I did incorrectly trying to tell maia that she’d forgoten to restrict the post I’m going to guess it’s not a big deal.
I think Maia does a very good job of moderating. She knows what she wants to discuss and keeps things focused on that part of the conversation withought making the moderation deccision seem personal.
Mandolin: Do Me A Favor
And actually, one reason I’d like it up front is so that I won’t bother reading the posting.
Infrequent commenter here, but I gotta say I’m not so sure allowing commenters to insert images is a good idea. I get the whole “picture is worth 1000 words” thing, but those 1000 words can be vile – I’m thinking of the photos Kathy Sierra received.
Of course, the image could be blanked later.
But damage may already have been done to the viewer.
“one reason I’d like it up front is so that I won’t bother reading the posting”
Well, in a way I can understand this, because it is frustrating to read things that you can’t respond to. On the other hand, if guys like RonF say they are here to hear different ideas, etc., doesn’t that attitude pretty much defeat the purpose?
Fine, crys t. Let me have the privilege to comment on a posting and I’ll be glad to read it. I find it far too frustrating to read a posting that I can’t comment on. If someone wants me to listen to them, they’ll have to listen to me.
As pheeno notes, women being subservient isn’t part of NA culture. Or of most traditional cultures.
I am personally acquainted with (in one case related to) women from El Salvador and Greece, and both sets push their men around shamelessly. Nicely of course. “Sweety, do this. Honey, do that. Sweety, it’s time to do this other thing now. Johnny, one of the burners on the stove sputters a bit.” (Johnny knows that there had better be men there the next morning to rip out the entire stove and put in a new one.)
I’m not decrying this or praising it, particularly. Just observing. The assumption seems to be, these men are incapable of dressing themselves without help. As one Greek girl said, “Joe (the husband) needs structure in his life.” And she’ll provide it.
Fine to you, Ron. But be aware that sometimes part of the learning process involves shutting up and listening to the people who have actually lived the experience.
You guys make all these claims about how you come here with good intentions, but then you aren’t willing to do any actual work to prove it. If you are asked to listen without having the privilege of retorting, you refuse and choose instead to shut your ears.
I’d say the point that a lot of us feminists have been trying to make over the past week or so about the value of having anti-feminist men here has had another bit of evidence in support added to the ever-growing pile.
Ron:
As I understand it, you can comment on the open threads. Or you can start your own blog, respond there, and track back to the post here. Over at The Distributed Republic (formerly Catallarchy), we’ve added the ability for users to create their own subblogs. There’s no ideological test, so you or anyone else is free to come over and start your own.
From the post itself:
Ampersand:
Point of order: Does refering to a contemptuous group as “allies” of a commenter when there’s connection between them count as “contempt-filled language” ?
OK, if we must speak of something else I’d still like to come back on a point raised by Mr Burnham, that of your comment moderation policy.
I also was rather shocked by your note, the one that begins: “This thread is only for folks who are not just anti-racist, but anti-white supremacy.”
I mainly use the internet to find opinions and analyses (well… that and comics too…) basically in the same way I read newspapers. If you want an example one of my favourite newspaper columnists is Howard Jacobson and the funny thing about that is I barely ever agree with anything he has to say. But the guy 1) can actually write and write extremely well, 2) always makes me think, always forces me to analyse why I hold such and such opinion. He is somebody against whom you can always bounce your arguments and sometimes somebody who forces you to change ever so slightly your position. His is a peculiar case – mainly because I so rarely agree with him and on such a wide range of topics – but it is a good example of what I, and I hope a lot of others – not that I am putting myself up as an example to follow or anything! – are looking for when reading opinions and editorials.
Now I read this “disclaimer” we are all supposed to agree to and I must say I find it extremely objectionable. Other blogs are pretty much happy to ask commentators to follow a certain code of conduct, avoid swearwords, racist or sexist comments (basically what you here call “treating other posters with respect”) but you go one step further and presume to tell us not what we can say or write but what we must think!
You are going to tell me that Alas is your blog and that you can basically write whatever and invite whoever you wish but I have to ask: how are you ever going to change anybody’s thinking if you even refuse to engage in dialogue with people who disagree with you? If you refuse to treat potential readers as adults with their own positions and insist in treating them as “customers” who have to buy their opinions from you or to reject them wholesale? If basically you insist on them surrendering their critical faculties before they can even open their mouth?
Thoughtcrime anyone?
Arnaud,
You may have missed a discussion on several feminist blogs some time ago in which lots of the bloggers complained about how they wrote with the desire to discuss matters with people in their community of feminists, yet found comment threads often sidetracked by people who didn’t understand fundamentals of feminism. Similarly, in the threads in which one must identify as “anti-white supremacist” to comment, the blogger probably wants to discuss a matter within a community of those who are anti-white supremacist and not get sidetracked by those who are. It’s a big internet; if you want to comment in a community of people who aren’t anti-white supremacy, they’re not difficult to find.