The pace has certainly picked up in this third issue of the Buffy Season 8 Comic book. We have plot, relationships, and many unanswered questions. This of course gives me even more to pick at. Since I’m about to rip it to shreds, I should make it clear that I enjoy the Buffy comic and would recommend it.
I’ve already written about the awfulness of Part III’s cover.
Even worse than the cover was the Andrew sequence. There are non-drawing problems with that sequences. I am not OK that in a world where there are heaps of women coming together to fight, men are acting as the leaders. I can’t stand the ‘heh Andrew’s gay’ jokes, which are lacking in the funny and try to compensate with the offensiveness. It’s even worse when the ‘joke’ is basically a set-up to have pictures of women in their underwear (because Andrew doesn’t find naked women interesting, isn’t that just the funniest thing you ever heard). The artist ‘just happened’ to have the woman with the most exaggerated hourglass figure front and centre in that panel (although my friend Rowan thought one of the slayers had a strap-on – which would have made for a much more interesting reading of the comic – unfortunately it is probably just underpants with a teddy bear on them).
The art is getting worse – women’s bodies are objectified more each week. There is no reason at all why Rowena is recovering in a sports bra and skin tight pants, except that in a comic her body isn’t created for her, but as a signal to readers of the position of women.
I guess I should be grateful that inside the book they’ve gone for the hideous witch look of OMWF for Willow.
Because I suspect someone will ask, there is an important difference between the way women’s bodies are portrayed throughout this issue, and how Angel and Spike were portrayed in the (hilarious) dream panel. In the three issues so far women’s bodies have been casually objectified and posed for the male gaze no matter what they’re doing. Fighting, healing, sleeping, standing, whatever – it’s been for men. If, in that context, there’d been a similar dream from Xander’s perspective, it wouldn’t have meant anything – just a continuation of the rest of the art. The only reason that panel stands out from the rest of the comic is because the artist isn’t randomly objectifying men.
There’s obviously a lot more to a comic than the art (particularly to someone as non-visual as me). For me, the most satisfying part of the comic were the dream sequences, which were pretty much perfect. I’ve always liked Joss’s dream sequences and this worked particularly well. I liked the idea of dreamspace – and like every other geek who owns this comic I’ve spent considerable time identifying what’s in the cubes (definitely Joss by the way) .
I thought the battle between Willow and Amy was pretty fantastic as well. I still think that Amy’s reappearance had more to do with a whole in the plot, than the character she had been, which sucks. But the fight was well done, I loved both the Zombie ball, and Giant Dawn.
I thought not telling us who kissed her was a bit of cheap tension. I hope they resolve the kiss soon, and not in a Chosen – whatever you want to happen that was what happened – kind of a way.*
I’m worried that Warren, like Amy, has been chosen for convenience rather than character (I don’t even care that there’s no way he could have survived). Unless the rest of Warren’s plotline involves intense Misogyny, then he was the wrong person to bring back.
But the big hole in the issue for me is Willow. Call me over-invested in these characters, but Willow, Xander and Buffy are friends. Now we’re landed in a situation where Willow hasn’t contacted Xander and Buffy for a long time. This is in a world with cell phones, and psychic communication. I’m not saying that it can’t work, but I think this is the wrong place in the story to bring us in.
I’m not saying that it can’t work, but I’m not sure this dynamic will hold my interest long enough for Joss to explain what’s going on. A month is a long time between issues, and the comics cost $8 each here.
Although while I’m being over-invested, enough with the retconning Willow’s sexuality. Willow was straight in high school, she totally ran with the stubbly crowd, from that badly dressed vampire in the first episode, to the stupid robot episode, to sex at graduation. Am I the only person who remember Oz?**
* I want Spike not to have been in Chosen at all and since I have a fan’s selective memory (Magic!Crack? I don’t know what you’re talking about) that’s relatively easy to achieve.
** Hey, maybe they’ll bring Oz back, that would be extremely awesome.
yes someone who reads the comics!!!
I am a huge fan of these comics and i am glad that season 8 of BtVS is back. however, all of the issues that you mentioned are what i agree with:
1. why does willow look so different from on the cover of this comic than in the actual comic itself? are they saying that as a lesbian, willow’s body can’t be objectified for the male gaze so she can look as close to her original character as possible?
2. Andrew. why in that ep of angel we see him in italy total about to mack, james bond style, with two hotties, and then here he is completely oblivious to the girls that are behind him half dressed. a little consistency problem eh, joss? (this also may be a way to explain his and “buffy’s” appearance in the angel ep)
3.where the hell did warren come from? though i am totally geeked that he is featured, however he, like, totally should be dead.
4. where’s faith!?!?!? i heard she may be coming in from “cleveland”
5. what are your thoughts on that demon that giles was speaking with? do you think he is important?
6. giles and xander are super dreamy in these comics. oh and i loooved buffy’s sex dream!
Different artists. It’s also possible that the cover art was painted long before the interior art was drawn, so the cover artist might not have had access to the interior art.
My favorite theory is that Andrew is sexually attracted to women (although perhaps not exclusively), but completely oblivious to the usual straight-boy fetishes, and uninterested in being a lech.
3. I’ll wait to see where Joss is going with this, but I’m kind of disappointed — I liked the way Warren’s plotline ended, and this messes that up a bit.
Also, was it just me, or did the art in this issue feel “rushed” and sloppy compared to the first two issues?
I have a different theory on Andrew, and a different take on how it played out in issue #3 (although I didn’t like the segment at all).
(Forgive me for being SUPER geeky, but my son’s been bedridden, and we just blitzed our way through seasons 5–7, so it’s very fresh in my mind.)
Andrew’s never been fully out. When the “trio” first formed, he was all about, let’s get girls, let’s hypnotize girls, I like bazoombas. He kept his fantasies about men to himself, although it became increasingly obvious. Despite the way he lusted after Spike in Season 5 Angel, I’m not convinced he’s out (to himself) yet. I think he surrounds himself with girls, here and in Angel, as denial. But, try as he may, it’s not fun for him.
That said, the joke wasn’t funny in any way. Andrew surely can’t believe that Xander doesn’t like women.
The alternate cover of Willow was not exploitive, I’d forgotten about the icky one.
I think it’s obvious that Amy brought back Warren mystically, which she can do because he was killed mystically. That said, I don’t think Amy has all that much power. Willow was always more powerful and she was jealous. The evil gov’t guys are pumping her up somehow.
You’re on a blog which has a separate category for Buffy/Whedon related stuff. No need to apologize for being geeky here. :-P
I didn’t even know the alternative covers existed, so thank you! For folks who are interested, the so-so alternative cover for issue 2 can be viewed here, and the alternative cover for issue 3 — which is much better than the primary cover, and reminds me of an old Spirit splash page in its approach — can be viewed here.
Ok I’m just posting because of how much your Buffy reviews are annoying the hell out of me. You’ll probably call me sexist and right-wing but, in fact, I’m neither. I’m absolutely all for feminism. That said, I think you’re the sort of person who gives feminists a bad name, in particular by reading sexism into things when it’s just not there.
Are the comics trying to be sexy? And for that matter was the TV show? Yes on both counts. Hence the strip poker scene and Willow looking attractive on the front cover. But when was this ever done without equality? The Angel and Spike scene is the most explicit thing in the entire run of the show/comic. And did Spike ever appear with his shirt on in seasons 6 and 7 of Buffy? Across Whedon’s 3 shows we had shirtless Angel, Spike, Wesley, Simon, Mal (actually he was practically naked) and others. All of these were absolutely to create sex appeal and none of those were dream/fantasy sequences.
Your reviews draw no distinction between sexiness and the objectification of women. Women in the comics (and the show) are not submissive or weak. They aren’t controlled by the men. In fact, typically they’re the strongest characters on the show. To make your point you mention that in the comic there are groups of women being led by men. Firstly, that’s so far not quite right. Buffy is clearly in charge. Xander has an important role but Buffy’s running the show. And also we know that someone called ‘Donna’ was running a group in Italy. Secondly, it’s what the plot dictates since the characters at the end of the show (Giles, Xander, Andrew) WERE male. It’s absolutely natural that hte most experienced people who have been working with Buffy for 7 years will take leadership roles. And thirdly, why don’t you wait and see how it pans out instead of jumping in with the criticism? We have no idea what Faith is up to yet and I’m sure she’ll be taking a very important role. Similarly, we don’t know what Willow or Kennedy have been up to and see above re: Faith. Add to that that there are supposed to be 10 slayer groups and we’ve only seen 3 …. I would be money that the other 7 are run by women. The fact that we’ve been introduced to the ones run by men so far is because we’re being reintroduced to Giles and Andrew who were characters on the show.
Oh and one more thing. You say Willow is made much more of a model-type on the cover. You might even say the same for Buffy on the covers. But you might wanna notice that Xander, too, had been made much cooler and more attractive. And I’m willing to bet that when Giles pops up on a cover it will be somewhat sexed up. This all might be regrettable (although not THAT much since they still pretty much look like the actors) it’s not actually sexist.
I think your reviews are nonsense almost start to finish. There’s a lot of actual sexism in the world you could discuss without inventing it in one of the most pro-feminist pieces of pop-culture around.
“I think it’s obvious that Amy brought back Warren mystically, which she can do because he was killed mystically. That said, I don’t think Amy has all that much power. Willow was always more powerful and she was jealous. The evil gov’t guys are pumping her up somehow.”
this makes sense, like when willow brought back Buffy. but i never would have figured that Amy was strong enough to have done this, so she must have help. i cannot wait to see how it all pans out.
showing sexed up women on the cover reinforces the stereotype that women are nothing more than pretty objects. Also, my read on maia’s post is not that she dislikes the series, but that she would like it better if if were more pro-feminist. That’s fine. I’d like it better if it paid better attention to physics and had a more internally consistent mythology. There’s no difference to me in her preference for things that support feminism and my preference for Newton’s 2nd law. To each their own.
I just re-read all 3 together, and I have some more thoughts. First, the demony thing that Giles is talking to in Part III is from the group of demony things that Buffy battled in issue 1. So there’s definitely a big arc happening.
Second, in issue 1, Amy is “discovered” in the ruins of Sunnydale, and the army-types wonder “what they ate down there.” This is stupid. Sunnydale had completely evacuated, as was very clearly established in the last half-dozen episodes of season 7. Remember Andrew raiding an empty grocery store and an empty hospital? And if there were survivors? Hello. Empty grocery store.
Now I’m not clear how much time has passed in the Buffyverse since Sunnydale she go boom. Maybe just the one year, maybe this is post season 5 Angel. But there are logistical questions. LIke where did all the money come from? Watchers Council, she go boom. Sunnydale and all the assets and personal property and much ID and such of the Scooby Gang, they go boom. Who has the money to fund the operation that we see in Scotland? Kennedy comes from money, but Op Center in Scotland money? I think not. Plus she’s been absent.
I’m curious as to where Robin Wood and some of the surviving slayers (Rona, Violet, Chao Ahn) ended up. I’d like to see them. And good call, return the Oz!
I’d like to second Amp’s statement that there’s no such thing as ‘too geeky’ on this thread.
I definitely agree that the demons/symbol/military development is an on-going plot-line. Although I’m not sure the demons themselves will have on-going significance.
Matthew I think you misunderstand my objection. I explain it more fully here my problem is not that these images confirm to some people’s idea of sexy. . I have to say I don’t think you’re paying particular attention to the discussion if you paraphrase me as saying Willow looked more like a model on the cover (which I didn’t). She doesn’t look more like a model – models don’t have breasts like that.
Having Andrew leading a group of slayers does not arise naturally from where we left people at the end of Chosen. Andrew of Season 7 Buffy had no leadership skills, very few skills in general and wasn’t trusted by anyone. Why would they have put him in charge of a squad of slayers? It’s just ridiculous
“There’s no difference to me in her preference for things that support feminism and my preference for Newton’s 2nd law.”
Joe,
I respect what I think is the intent behind your comment, but I have to quibble with this statement. Do you really see no difference between your preference for scientific accuracy, and Maia’s preference for the female characters to be treated as fully human?
They put Andrew in charge of slayers? That doesn’t make any sense. It made sense for Xander or Giles to take on that role, but Andrew is a weenie.
“Go and try to figure out this mystery”, I can see. Even “go help these slayers on their mission”, I could see. But what justification do the writers offer for putting Andrew in a leadership role?
No the two are definitely different. My point was that complaining because you don’t share the preferences of reviewer is dumb.
Ok I don’t know how to quote.
But Joe: your argument seems to presuppose that there is no difference in the validity of the preference of one person over that of another. I think that’s wrong. What if someone said they thought it was weak because it has humour in it? Or because it had TOO much internal mythology? These are clearly ridiculous opinions to hold. So the question really arises whether your ‘preference’ is a reasonable one or not and can be substantiated. Giving a blanket ‘you just don’t agree with their preference’ seems to me to miss the point.
And here my argument wasn’t that I disagreed that things should have feminism. I was suggesting that the reviewer was wrong to see sexism into it. She gave her arguments as to why it was sexist. I responded with why I thought it wasn’t. It’s not just me being ‘dumb’ and disagreeing with her preference.
Maia: I’ve read your other post and it does clarify things. But I still can’t say that I agree. My point that the guys in the comic are made sexier still stands. Xander has been made cooler and more muscular. A common point people have been making about issue 2 is that Giles looked considerably younger than Anthony Stuart Head.
Ok so you’re not saying that they’re made to be sexier or model-like, just that they’re made for men. Well, what exactly do men want? I think you should be more specific. For women to be submissive? Because that’s not the case in the comics, nor in the cover pictures of either Buffy or Willow. What is this mysterious thing that men want the women to be that’s not based on looks. Because if it’s just looks, then I go back to what I was saying before. It’s trying to be sexy but it’s not sexist.
As for Andrew I can see him in a leadership position. Obviously not in seasons 6 or even 7. But he matured massively over season 7 (particularly in Storyteller) to a point in Chosen where I think he was a pretty alright guy, maturely handling what he says to Xander about Anya. He’s had experience fighting in battle and working with Buffy and we know from season 5 of Angel that he was being trained by Giles. Given that it seems a few years have passed since Chosen, I don’t think it’s implausible to have him running – ultimately under the command of Buffy – a group of slayers.
Also, what are you basing your assertion on that TV is aimed at women much more than men? (I’ll buy that comics are aimed more at men). Men are consumers too … Maybe you’ve seen some research or something and I’m prepared to accept it might be true. But at the moment it looks like a wild assertion.
You can learn how to do block quotes via the link at the bottom of the page.
I thought the episodes that were supposed to be funny were some of the worst. The episode where Angel and Spike went to Italy to ‘save’ buffy from Lorenzo was horrible; too campy. One of my best friends loved it. He likes when they’re campy. Both preferences are valid. I like minutia. I’d love a buffy where Giles, Wesley and willow spent a lot of time talking about how demons work and how the world developed the way that it did. I wouldn’t even care if there was any action. I’m sure you could find people who thought that was boring and focused too much on the internal mythology.
I agree with your broad point. Some preferences are ridiculous. If you prefer something that the creators have no interest or intention of offering it’s silly to complain that it’s not there. Also if you prefer something that’s not central to the work it’s silly to say there should be more of it. Saying that you don’t like the west wing because all the political stuff takes away from the romantic stories is silly. Saying the Conan movie needs less shots of Arnolds muscles is silly. Saying desperate housewives needs more special effects and ninja fights is silly.
Saying you don’t like a hyper sexualized cover illustration because it’s inconsistent with the character’s history, and detracts from a major theme of the work is not silly.
The fact that you don’t care for that aspect of the buffyvers is fine. Different strokes and all. But it’s there, and discussing how well that’s executed is perfectly legitimate form of critique.
while comics draw everyone to a heroic scale there’s also a difference between showing men sexed up and showing women sexed up. To say nothing of the fact that Xander could have been hitting the gym and working out off camera. It’s actually pretty logical to assume that Xander would be getting into better shape now that he’s focused on fighting a war to exclusion of other things. I doubt that willow’s been surgically reconstructed to look like that cover.
I’m sorry that I called you dumb. That was rude and I apologize for it. I’ll try to edit it to ‘wrong’.
The cover is an advertisement for the comic. Do you really think that there’s nothing sexist about objectifying women to sell a product?
Maybe that is the difference between a straight reader and a queer one.
My friends (all gay men, lesbian/bi women) and I have been devouring the Buffy comic and the Andrew sequences, particularly the “Andrew is Gay!” jokes are one of our favorite parts. There are no gay men in Joss’s shows (excepting Larry but he died and was a bit character) and we’re all chomping at the bit for Joss make another gay character with the complexity and integrity that he has shown with Willow, Tara, and Kennedy. I had a friend (gay male) actually call me from cross country this week because he thought the Andrew and the strip poker thing was so funny, he had to make sure I knew he nearly snorted espresso all over the comic while reading it. Andrew’s gayness is becoming more and more of an elephant in the room and we’re all hoping that the jokes and comments are going to lead to a substantial coming out somewhere in the comic. We’re excited for those jokes because it is the kind of thing we say and do. I know if my friend was surrounded by girls playing strip poker, he would be bored too.
And personally, I just found the strip poker thing hilarious. It reminds me of Xander’s fantasy sequence from Season 7 with the pj pillow fight – only the irony is that it is happening to someone who doesn’t find female sexual exhibition to be fulfilling. I see it as a very feminist and very Whedon twist – show something as bad-porno-sexist as a strip poker game – but the male in question is completely uninterested. I see it as very congruent with the original idea for the show – the blonde girl in the alley appears to be the same old sexist schlock, but the twist is that she actually kicks the monsters ass. Joss has always marketed in giving you something that looks sexist as hell, but with that twist at the end that challenges the norms.
I agree with Mathew´s comments.
I thought about the money issue, and the origin of giant dawn’s clothes too.
But, in this cases, u have two options: go crazy and cry, or imagine a possible plot-like solution.
Giant clothes (ans shoes) were created from dawn’s original clothes, by the mystics or witches of the slayer central. (they enlarged them magically)
Money, was made by magic, too. Lol!
Nooo! I think they got the money from Anya. Remember that episode were all the females were in love with the jacket guy? Well, in that episode Anya stole money from the bank. She must have left it in the school bus before going to battle.
I think that the mysterious person who kissed buffy is Satsu. When Buffy woke up, she said “cinnamon buns” and then later when Satsu lent her her lipgloss Buffy remarked on its cinnamon flavour kind of questioningly. Also Satsu seems to enjoy a sort of favouritism from Buffy that goes remarked by the other slayers as well.
Okay, that’s all I wanted to say…no one else I know is reading these comics, and I’ve been dying to talk about them…there’s my Buffy love for the night until the next one comes out…
“That said, I don’t think Amy has all that much power. Willow was always more powerful and she was jealous. The evil gov’t guys are pumping her up somehow.”
No, Willow was not “always” more powerful and Amy was not “always” jealous; this was just one of the many retcons of Season 7. Willow even expresses jealousy towards Amy in Season 4, because Amy was able to turn people into rats with a few words and Willow couldn’t (except for the “my will be done” spell). Yes, Willow is currently more powerful, but that has not always been the case.