I’m sorry, y’all. I was unclear about what I meant in the last post. Let me try to be more clear! And specific! Woo, I know you all wanted that TMI.
So:
I have a medical disorder which means that my body has decided it doesn’t really need to produce the hormone that stimulates periods. Eh, says my body. Who needs progesterone? Not me!
Consequently, I haven’t had my period in 8 months. In the meantime, though, my uterine lining has been like, “Woohoo! I can get thicker and thicker and thicker and thicker and thicker…”
I don’t prefer to take birth control pills because they make me depressed. That means that I haven’t had BC pills to thin my uterine lining — so I don’t know what it’s like to use birth control pills for that purpose. I haven’t been TRYING to suppress my periods. My body just decided it didn’t want to have them.
Previously, my body had gone 3 or 4 months without bleeding, so I wasn’t really freaked out about the lack of blood. Irregular periods have been with me since I started the whole bloody shebang. Maybe I should have worried earlier, but I didn’t. So it wasn’t until I went in to the gynecologist for my pap smear that I revealed the whole unbloody story, and my gynecologist furrowed his brow. Quoth he, “That ain’t good.”
See, the thing about my uterine lining (sans bc pills) is that it’s been growing and growing. And the thing about growing uterine lining is that the cells grow crazy fast. They like getting into trouble, those persnickety uterine lining cells. Sometimes they like to grow in places they’re not supposed to be, and that can cause lots of damage. Sometimes they become cancerous and their rapid growth rate makes them extra-super-dangerous.
So, I was told by my gynecologist, bleeding must occur! Progesterone pills must be taken! You must be absolutely miserable for 10 days during which you will alternately cry and scream at your spouse, suffer odd cravings, and periodically vomit! Yay!
There you have my sordid medical story.
I brought this up because, long ago in the foggy mists of blog history, I related my gynecologist’s opinion on the occasional annoying, but necessary, sloughing of uterine lining. My gynecologist had told me that I could use birth control pills to stimulate menstruation, which would help me get rid of uterine lining build-ups which had previously occured.
In that long-ago thread, some false medical info got bandied about, and just in case any menstrually-challenged ladies like me had been reading, I wanted to relate the correction. I am not taking a position on the medical ramifications of menstrual suppression by birth control pills, on account of I haven’t tried it.
Also, I haven’t read “Even the Queen,” which is a tragedy of epic proportions. I’ve got a copy of _Impossible Things_ in the other room. I’ll read soon!
This has been your daily dose of too much information.
What kind of progesterone pills do you take? I’ve heard lots of reports that synthetic medroxyprogesterones, like Provera and… I forget the other brand name… tend to cause much worse mood swings than micronized progesterone, which is more similar to the kind of progesterone that bodies usually make on their own. I take the micronized stuff ten days a month myself, and it doesn’t make me feel weird or moody, but of course that kind of thing varies a lot from person to person!
Unfortunately, the gyn is right: that ain’t good. Uterine lining that doesn’t slough can stimulate uterine cancer and endometriosis. At risk of giving way too much advice, have you considered getting rid of the source of the problem? Unless you want to try to incubate a fetus (not sure that’s even possible, given your description of what’s going on, but if you want to go for it DO NOT give up based on what I just said: get an opinion from a fertility specialist), the uterus isn’t good for much and it can’t hurt you if it’s sitting in a jar of formaldehyde. Yes, surgery is icky, but once it’s done it’s done.
Holly, I’m not sure what I’m taking. I got the impression it was a one-time deal, so I think I’ll just gird my womb and keep on keepin’ on.
Dianne, I’m undecided on the subject of children. I may well be fertile — my mother has the same disorder, and lo, I am here. All she needed was a pill to pop. My ovaries don’t tend to ovulate on their own (though they have), but they may do with a bit of prompting.
It’s also possible I’m not fertile, but since the testing situation is “Here, take this drug and see if you get pregnant!” I’m not willing to try it out in advance. :) If I want kids, and I’m fertile, great. If I don’t want kids, and I’m not fertile, okay. If I want kids, and I’m not fertile, there’s always adoption.
For the record, this bit here:
“Uterine lining that doesn’t slough can stimulate uterine cancer and endometriosis.”
Is the claim I made on the other thread that got refuted, the truth of which I started these two posts to verify. So, as this is the important bit, I think it bears highlighting and repeating. Uterine lining that doesn’t slough can cause uterine cancer and endometriosis. :)
This is so much to go through and I have no visceral understanding.
All I have is much Empathy and push for GYN resaerch dollars everytime the subject comes up
I seem to remember reading that it’s possible to get rid of all or most of the uterine lining without removing the uterus – ablation, perhaps? Anyone know? Of course, that’s only useful for those who are done with the whole uterine-parasite deal.
Mandolin,
What is the name of the condition that you have that prevents the production of progesterone? What chemical/hormonal imbalance is causing this? If I understand your post correctly, the build-up of lining in the uterus is the result of the condition, not the cause of it.
Besides taking artificial progesterone are there any other therapies available, ones that treat the root cause, that is, the chemical imbalance that prevents the production of progesterone?
I’m not a doctor so feel free to completely ignore this, but you mentioned that birth control pills made you depressed and I was wondering if you’d tried taking a different brand. I know that doctors prescribe different types of birth control pills based on their patients’ varying needs, and maybe a different brand wouldn’t affect you in that way.
Ah! I have the same condition, and the same lack of appealing solution.
Though your doctor has probably mentioned this, I’ll mention it for anyone else in the thread to whom it might be useful: Low progesterone also causes issues with calcium absorption. The progesterone tablets will help combat this, as will high calcium foods and exercise.
Please consider trying Vitex, otherwise known as Chaste berry. I’d recommend a capsule supplement rather than an herbal tea or tincture.
Just my two cents.
No side effects or harm done, if it doesn’t work. :)
Why does that sound an awful lot like every period you missed crammed into one super-period, which sounds kind of like the worst vacation one could ever have?
Hi Ledasmom,
I don’t need ablation, ‘cuz it’s not that big a deal for me to be upset for a week. I’d rather do that than surgery.
Re: BC pills:
Eh, I’ve tried a bunch of them. At some point I’ll probably just choose one and be mildly annoyed.
I would imagine that this doesn’t apply to transgender men taking testosterone? I don’t really know the biology of it what happens to uteruses.
Please consider trying Vitex, otherwise known as Chaste berry.
From what I can find on chaste berry, it appears to have prolactin suppressing effects so seems less likely to work unles high prolactin is part of the sydrome causing amenorrhea in you. There is some evidence that it upregulates progesterone receptors, which might be helpful to you, but, since in this study it upregulated progesterone receptors in a uterine cancer cell line, one should be a bit cautious about it.
No side effects or harm done, if it doesn’t work. :)
No. Any drug that is strong enough to have a clinical effect is strong enough to have side effects. It doesn’t matter if it comes from a tree or a lab or was given to you directly by hyperintelligent aliens who designed it just to help you. It may be perfectly fine and helpful and do wonderful things for you, but it is a drug and should be treated with the same caution that you would treat Merck’s latest product. More: nature doesn’t care about being sued and most medicinal compounds that plants make are actually made in an attempt to keep the plant from being eaten–poisons, in other words.
This is interesting; I have a progesterone imbalance too, but it goes the opposite direction–uterine buildup leads to weekly or even constant bleeding. My gynos don’t seem to have a solution. Two years of this, a surgery to see if it was endometriosis, a D&C, and a half-dozen attempted prescriptions later, I’m now at a “how about if we leave you alone and see what happens” stage.
Nice info about the calcium; as a milk-hater, that might be good advice for me. Good advice certainly doesn’t seem to be forthcoming from my doctors.
“Good advice certainly doesn’t seem to be forthcoming from my doctors.”
I don’t thikn they understand a whole lot about female reproduction. The information about my disorder is very dense and contradictory, which is one reason why I’m not naming it here (sorry). I’ve had some experience of people telling me their pet theories on it, and I don’t know why it gets under my skin, but it does. I guess because it’s usually “exercise more! that cures it!” when I’ve had times in my life where I exercised a lot, and it really didn’t ameliorate the symptoms, or “eat atkins” when I feel that may be more trendy than helpful.
Nice info about the calcium; as a milk-hater, that might be good advice for me
Might I suggest broccoli and leafy green vegetables? (I’m moderately lactose intolerant and found myself craving broccoli after giving up milk. It turns out to be high in calcium, so that worked out nicely.) Unfortunately, plant calcium is less bioavailable than milk calcium, but one can always eat more broccoli and kale, right?
A man should have more sense than to get into this one, but I will dare to rush in like a fool because I have a few bits of knowledge in this area. First I wouldn’t worry about cancer as the main factor in this scenario. Cancer is a problem with unopposed estrogens for many years. So it usually happens in older women. That is why they gave progesterone along with estrogen to post menopausal women with uteruses when it was given to prevent post menopausal symptoms. The progesterone, if given for a while, makes the uterus think it is pregnant. So, no periods, no pregnancy, and no risk of cancer of the uterus, while you are taking it. I guess the stuff, must also cause some people to feel bad, which sounds like what has happened. The subject is complicated, which is why they wrote a 450 page book
http://www.amazon.com/Clinical-Disorders-Endometrium-Menstrual-Cycle/dp/0192627244/ref
If the cycles are not regular it could be due either to ovarian failure or more likely the pituitary gland is not cycling the appropriate hormones that stimulate the ovary at regular intervals. I’m afraid you are at the mercy of your body and the medical practitioners you are seeing. If one doctor is not able to help you, see another, for a second opinion. If child bearing is not an issue the uterus can be removed or the endometrium ablated. If you have endometriosis you will still need medication, since endometrial tissue outside the uterus will cycle like it was in the uterus. Meds are available to treat this. Documenting endometriosis and differentiating it from other sources of pelvic pain can be hard. Most doctors don’t recommend that the ovaries be removed until the menopause, if at all. Good luck.
Stone Bear:
The answer is that no one really knows. Trans people in general are not a priority of medical research and trans men less so even than trans women. Anecdotally, quite a few guys experience “breakthrough” bleeding around a year after stopping menstruation, perhaps indicative of buildup. There seems to be (anecdotally) a reasonably high incidence of endometriosis among trans men, but that may be because we’re looking for it so that insurance will pay for hystos—the incidence of endometriosis among all uterine-possessing people is also not well known, as “mild” endometriosis can have no symptoms. Furthermore, there’s no agreement in the medical community about whether hystos are necessary. Again, anecdotal evidence is unhelpful, as some guys develop uterine problems soon after starting hormone therapy, while other guys go many many years without developing any problems.
No. Any drug that is strong enough to have a clinical effect is strong enough to have side effects. It doesn’t matter if it comes from a tree or a lab or was given to you directly by hyperintelligent aliens who designed it just to help you. It may be perfectly fine and helpful and do wonderful things for you, but it is a drug and should be treated with the same caution that you would treat Merck’s latest product. More: nature doesn’t care about being sued and most medicinal compounds that plants make are actually made in an attempt to keep the plant from being eaten–poisons, in other words.
I will amend my statement: the side effects are negligible compared to either pharmaceutical or over-the-counter remedies.
Aliens? Someone seems a bit hypersensitive (hostile) towards herbal medicine. Drug company rep? Doctor?
daisydeadhead – to imply that anyone who has a problem with the marketing of alternative medicine is doing so because they’re bought off is offensive and completely unfounded.
I think a sizeable proportation of alternative medical practitioners are thieves and charlatans. I think the vast majority of pharmaceutical companies, or companies that sell ‘alternate medicine’ are pretty much the epitome of evil.
I don’t think the battle is between two groups of people who want to sell us different health products. I think it’s about whether health is a commodity to be bought and sold or a right.
Maia, I detected some hostility in Dianne’s comment, when all I did was suggest an herb, which has shown very few (any?) documented side effects. I got two rather hostile paragraphs, and I don’t think my suggestion deserved that. And now, you seem hostile also. (?)
And I didn’t see any discussion of “marketing” of alternative medicine; I saw a bizarre reference to aliens. Why the sarcasm and patronizing? Was that necessary? Yes, I replied in kind.
And BTW, I was not recommending anything I didn’t learn from my grandmother, and she from her grandmother. I am not foisting some evil nefarious industry on anyone.
From one of the research articles in DaisyDeadhead’s initial Chaste Berry link: “The most frequent adverse events are nausea, headache, gastrointestinal disturbances, menstrual disorders, acne, pruritus and erythematous rash.”
Dianne’s point is a legitimate one. The active ingredients in chaste berry have real physiological effects, which may benefit or worsen a given medical condition. If it had absolutely no physiological effect, like a homeopathic tincture, then there would be less reason to be wary of ‘just giving it a try’.
I will amend my statement: the side effects are negligible compared to either pharmaceutical or over-the-counter remedies.
I know very little about chaste berry in particular, but if this statement refers to herbal medications in general, it is nonsense. Herbal medications can have side effects just like any other medication.
Specific examples: There have been deaths due to kava and ephedra. Other herbs can alter the metabolism of other drugs with potentially lethal side effects. Then there’s the PC Spes story. PC Spes was once touted as an example of successful use of CAM in cancer. It appeared to work periodically–not always, not particularly better than “allopathic” medicine, but sometimes–on prostate cancer. Then people taking it started getting clotting and/or bleeding problems. It turns out that the company that makes PC Spes was adding a synthetic estrogen to the mixture to make it effective. But estrogens can cause clotting. So they added coumadin. And a benzodiazapiem to make people happy about taking it. Unmonitored coumadin is a disaster waiting to happen and benzos are addictive. It was withdrawn from the market once this was discovered.
Aliens? Someone seems a bit hypersensitive (hostile) towards herbal medicine.
Um, it was a joke. Lists are traditionally supposed to have three components and I only had two real options to put in. At first I was going to say “or made by God just for you” but then I thought that a diety could simply make the medication miracuously work only in the way it should. So instead I went for imaginary beings that were highly intelligent and (presumably) technically advanced, but not omnipotent. Eh, so the joke fell flat.
I detected some hostility in Dianne’s comment,
Well, yes, but it wasn’t directed towards you, but rather at the “herbal supplement” industry. Which is totally unregulated and has caused a number of deaths, both directly and indirectly. Perhaps you are obtaining your herbs by gardening or searching the woods for appropriate plants (please be careful if so), but most people buy them. The makers of these medications are not wise men and women working deep in the Amazon rain forest with nothing but knowledge hoarded from generation to generation, but large companies that make them for the same reason that drug companies make drugs–to make a profit. Often they are branches of “big pharma” houses. Some herbal supplements are contaminated with heavy metals. Others do not contain the ingredient listed as “active”. If you must buy herbal supplements, buy them from Germany. Germany does regulate its supplement industry and so you’ll at least be reasonably sure that what is listed on the package insert is what is in the bottle.
when all I did was suggest an herb, which has shown very few (any?) documented side effects.
As borssa already pointed out, this isn’t altogether true. There are known side effects of taking chaste berry and more may be uncovered if it is tested more throughly. Maybe it’s wonderful stuff. There are certainly plant based medications that are. But maybe it’s not. There’s no way of knowing without proper testing. And since neither of us knows what Mandolin’s particular condition is, there is no way of knowing whether it is appropriate for her, even if it is an excellent treatment for some illnesses associated with menstration.
I was not recommending anything I didn’t learn from my grandmother, and she from her grandmother.
My mother used to give me aspirin when I was sick as a child. She learned that from her mother. It turns out that we were both simply lucky in that we did not die from Reye’s syndrome. On the other hand, she also learned that breast feeding is a good idea and I benefited from that. Traditional wisdom is a crapshoot: might help, might kill.
I know very little about chaste berry in particular, but if this statement refers to herbal medications in general, it is nonsense. Herbal medications can have side effects just like any other medication.
First, I didn’t say this about all herbal meds. You are extrapolating. But if you wanna go there, fine.
Specific examples: There have been deaths due to kava and ephedra.
The death of the baseball player, supposedly due to ephedra was due to an overdose. There have been far more overdoses due to regular diet pills–and I grew up when diet pills like Dexedrine were given to any overweight teenager who asked for them, myself included . Ma Huang, the herb ephedra is extracted from, has been used for thousands of years in China, and is very safe if used properly. It’s historic use was for ASTHMA, not weight loss, which is how it was marketed in the West.
Deaths from kava? Details? I know of some concurrent liver issues with people ON OTHER DRUGS who took kava also (and if you have pre-existing liver problems, DO NOT TAKE KAVA–this is why you go to a proper herbalist who knows this stuff). But I know of no deaths solely from kava. Also, these deaths were in Germany, if memory serves, where local supplement companies did not know the correct part of plant that was historically used in Tahiti. Perhaps they should have asked the locals? Western arrogance strikes again.
Like Ma Huang, Kava-kava has been safely and successfully used as a cocktail (actually sold in cocktail bars in Tahiti as the cocktail “Nakamal”) for millenia. Didn’t you have any when you went to Tahiti? If so, that’s what you drank, just as ROOT BEER was once historically Sarsaparilla.
Drug companies have been very aggressive in marketing these few scare-stories, though, even though Vioxx, Celebrex, Fen-Phen and even garden-variety Ibuprofen have caused far more damage. Yet, pe0ple are terrified of herbs, which as I said, have been historically used for MILLENIA, not for the few scant decades that prescription drugs have been used (and idolized).
Other herbs can alter the metabolism of other drugs with potentially lethal side effects.
Examples?
Then there’s the PC Spes story. PC Spes was once touted as an example of successful use of CAM in cancer.
Well, I’ve been in herbal medicine for decades, and I have never heard of this. Guess it ain’t much of a story, huh? Which herb is this?
It appeared to work periodically–not always, not particularly better than “allopathic” medicine, but sometimes–on prostate cancer. Then people taking it started getting clotting and/or bleeding problems. It turns out that the company that makes PC Spes was adding a synthetic estrogen to the mixture to make it effective.
So, it was the company’s meddling with the herb, not the herb itself. Figures.
Um, where did they get this estrogen? They had a doctor, with prescribing capabilities, working for them? Sounds hinky.
But estrogens can cause clotting. So they added coumadin. And a benzodiazapiem to make people happy about taking it. Unmonitored coumadin is a disaster waiting to happen and benzos are addictive. It was withdrawn from the market once this was discovered.
You are saying an herbal company added TWO EXPENSIVE PRESCRIPTION DRUGS to their formula? Forgive me for my skepticism, but do you have a link? How were these obtained without prescription? Are you saying they had the power of prescribing?
Which company was this?
I fully admit, that one must be conscious and aware before using herbs, as one would when using anything else, including food. But certainly, no herbs can cause the harm prescription drugs can, WHEN TAKEN PROPERLY and advised by someone knowledgable.
From one of the research articles in DaisyDeadhead’s initial Chaste Berry link: “The most frequent adverse events are nausea, headache, gastrointestinal disturbances, menstrual disorders, acne, pruritus and erythematous rash.”
Same as for birth control pills, but even less occurrence of these.
Why do you all ignore the same negatives for prescription drugs? It’s like you have a blind spot for those–and I could dig up countless malpractice suits and trash-talking blogs dedicated to every single one.
If it had absolutely no physiological effect, like a homeopathic tincture, then there would be less reason to be wary of ‘just giving it a try’.
Do you believe even external use, as in Arnica gel (or essential oil) for joint pain, is ineffective?
Aloe vera for burns? Lavender essential oil for relaxing people during massage? Peppermint has NO effect on migraines? I guess those migraine-sufferers who claim different are all full of shit, then, yes? Eucalyptus is bullshit and does NOT open sinuses? (Do the cough-drop and cough-medicine makers know this, because they use LARGE AMOUNTS of Eucalyptus, Thymol and Menthol in their products.)
And White willow bark is crap, too? Then, we should stop taking aspirin to prevent heart attacks? You realize, that is where aspirin comes from, no?
I could go on, of course, but those are the best-selling herbs.
The makers of these medications are not wise men and women working deep in the Amazon rain forest with nothing but knowledge hoarded from generation to generation, but large companies that make them for the same reason that drug companies make drugs–to make a profit.
My favorite herbal company is Gaia Herbs, a local company from Brevard, NC. I have been there myself, several times, and I have seen how they farm herbs, and prepare their formulas. I have eaten their stuff raw, out of the ground. And they sell a great kava formula that I have taken many times.
Many companies do not get my seal of approval, and some do. It’s like ANYTHING ELSE. One must learn to discern and judge–not throw out the baby with the bathwater.
Germany, huh? Like where the kava fiasco occurred? Regulation doesn’t mean shit, and needs to be AVOIDED. (Sorry, now you are tapping into my anarchism, sorry about that.)
Dr Andrew Weil has an excellent rule of thumb: Western medicine is for crisis, Eastern medicine is for chronic. Cancer, broken bones, acute pancreatitis, etc=Western medicine. Acid reflux, sinuses, insomnia, arthritis, etc=Eastern medicine.
Western medicine is great for crisis situations. That’s its strength, that’s how it was forged. The problem is, western medicine treats EVERYTHING like a crisis–ruining people’s digestion with Prevacid, getting them hooked on Ambien (I talk to at least 2 Ambien addicts a week, some by telephone, so it isn’t just a local problem) and garbage like that. (The best sleep and arthritis aid, marijuana, is not legal for medical use in my state, another outrage.) Herbs and other supplements such as digestive enzymes would be preferable for acid reflex, and in this matter I speak from personal experience also.
Eastern medicine understands the relationship of mind and body, and can ferret out dietary causes of illness in a shot. However, they are likely to prescribe herbs for broken bones and cancer, and NO, you can’t do that. I have actually pleaded with my customers to go to doctors before–the medical profession has scared so many people and repeatedly lied to them, patronized them, etc– people avoid them even when doctors are obviously necessary.
I’ve heard about 3 iatragenic illnesses in just the past week; people who went to the hospital for one thing and came out with something else. Conventional Western medicine has PLENTY to answer for.
The problem with the Weil thesis is that at some point, chronic can become crisis, or crisis can revert to chronic. In a civilized society (not this one), an herbalist and doctor might work together for the betterment of the patient, not continually be at odds, as you seem to prefer.
“Yet, pe0ple are terrified of herbs, which as I said, have been historically used for MILLENIA”
So why not test and prove their efficacy?
“Why do you all ignore the same negatives for prescription drugs? It’s like you have a blind spot for those–and I could dig up countless malpractice suits and trash-talking blogs dedicated to every single one.”
I don’t ignore the negatives for prescription drugs; I just want to point out that herbs have indications and contraindications, effects and side effects, and favorable and unfavorable interactions, just like prescription medications do. Just because you can eat them out of the ground does not mean that they are all inherently safe, or even that they do what it is claimed that they can do.
I believe that homeopathic tinctures, where any possible active ingredient has been diluted to the point of nonexistence, are no more effective than placebo. One last time: I do not dispute that herbs have physiological effects under the proper conditions. Deadly nightshade got that name for a reason. My own experience with aloe vera for a burn resulted in a pretty unpleasant skin reaction, akin to a poison ivy rash. Western medicine has derived a huge number of highly effective drugs from plant/fungal/animal sources. But citing the historicity of a given herbal treatment does nothing to establish its efficacy or side effect profile.
I encounter more people who think that herbs are perfectly safe than I do people that are terrified of them.
So why not test and prove their efficacy?
Mandolin, there have been tons of tests. (?) You know that, right? Which tests and which herbs do you refer to? (I am familiar with most of the major news-worthy tests mentioned in places like the New York Times.)
I don’t ignore the negatives for prescription drugs; I just want to point out that herbs have indications and contraindications, effects and side effects, and favorable and unfavorable interactions, just like prescription medications do. Just because you can eat them out of the ground does not mean that they are all inherently safe, or even that they do what it is claimed that they can do.
I am totally in agreement. My remark about “eating them out of the ground” was in reply to any doubts about Gaia’s process and purity, which I feel very confident about. This is not some huge evil conglomerate, it is a local business I approve of, have thoroughly checked out, and therefore do business with. I don’t think anyone added any estrogen, etc (!) (still waiting to hear which company did this?) to any of their products.
Umm, I wouldn’t be much of an herbalist if I thought “all herbs are safe”–why does it jump from my stated opinion that “herbs can be better than Rx drugs for certain conditions” to the straw-herbalist argument “you think all herbs are safe”? No, that is not my opinion. Stop putting words in my mouth and read what I said: I think Eastern and Western medicine can work together. You are the one proposing the superiority of Western medicine to all else.
Some herbs are safe if used in extract and not externally; some you can smoke and some will kill you that way. Some can heal and the VERY SAME HERB, USED WRONGLY, can hurt. I realize this; it’s my job.
As we say about abortion, it’s better to be legal and safe, than illegal, driven underground, with information and resources scarce and/or nonexistent. (PS: some abortions are dangerous and some are safe–that doesn’t mean all abortion is unsafe.) Wouldn’t you agree?
“Mandolin, there have been tons of tests. (?) You know that, right? Which tests and which herbs do you refer to? (I am familiar with most of the major news-worthy tests mentioned in places like the New York Times.) ”
Are we talking about FDA approved substances? I assumed we were not, since we were talking about things that aren’t regulated.
When I propose “the superiority of Western medicine to all else”, feel free to quote me.
Perhaps I misunderstood your earlier statement:
Is this not a claim that, unlike prescription drugs, no herb can cause harm when taken properly and under supervision? Or that the side effects or interactions of herbs are always more benign than those of prescription medications? Because that claim is patently false.
A Google search on PC SPES will provide a large number of references about the testing and withdrawal of the product. I will address one point: prescription medications are only expensive and hard to get if you produce them legally and are subject to the expense of testing and product liability. Coumadin is a brand name for warfarin, which is itself a synthetic derivative of coumarin, which was isolated from moldy sweet clover. Warfarin was produced as a rat poison, and is dirt cheap in bulk, especially if purity is not much of a concern.
(I talk to at least 2 Ambien addicts a week
Because, after all, plants are never addicting. (Opium, tobacco, marijuana, alcohol…nope, no addiction problems there.)
But I know of no deaths solely from kava.
I guess you didn’t read the link, then, since it mentioned four deaths from the use of kava and no other drugs or herbal supplements, in people who had no prior history of liver problems.
White willow bark is crap, too? Then, we should stop taking aspirin to prevent heart attacks?
Actually, willow bark is not aspirin. It is salicylic acid, not acetylsalicylic acid. The difference is quite important if you want your stomach lining to remain intact.
Of course many medications are derived from plants. Besides aspirin, you could have mentioned digitoxin, taxol, vincristine, opiates, and many others. Yet people take taxol for their breast cancer, not yew bark extract. Why? Several reasons. First, yew bark is not standardized (the plant makes a variable amount depending on any number of changes in its environmnent) and so simply taking a given amount of it doesn’t guarantee a given dose of active ingredient. Second, it is far more effective, with far fewer side effects (i.e. more a drug and less a poison) if taken IV instead of by mouth. I’ll leave the question of what would happen if you injected bark to the readers’ imaginations. Finally, taxol, the drug, can be synthesized. This is critical: before the synthesization was worked out, there was fear that demand for taxol would drive the yew tree into extinction. After, there was no problem. Much like viagra–an effective drug for impotence–is helping save the rhinocerous by driving down the demand for rhino horn, a traditional, but entirely ineffective, treatment for impotence.
there have been tons of tests.
Such as? Start with something simple. Has chaste berry been tested for safety and efficacy in humans? How and by whom? Links would be appreciated, although I understand that you may not have time to or interest in linking extensively (plus excess linking can put your post in the spam filter).
Are we talking about FDA approved substances?
Ah, that’s the beauty of the thing for Big Naturpathy: the FDA doesn’t regulate “herbal supplements”. They aren’t allowed to because of a bill pushed through by the oh-so innocent companies that sell these supplements. All they have to do is label them in such a way that they don’t make an overt claim to cure any disease and they are “nutritional supplements” and not subject to regulation, not “medicines” which, plant derived or not, are.
More on the dangers of taking herbal medications listed, for example, here. The long list of references to cases of non-permanent injury, permanent injury, and death related to the injestion of various herbal and ostensibly herbal medications is particularly interesting.
“Ah, that’s the beauty of the thing for Big Naturpathy: the FDA doesn’t regulate “herbal supplements”. ”
Yeah, I know. That’s why I was starting from a default of “no sufficient scientific testing to prove that this drug works in the way that I claim it works.” I’m happy to be corrected though, hence posting it as a question.
My sister-in-law used to sell herbal medications.
I have no problem believing some alternative medicines work. But if they work, why not prove they work? The scientific method is not an impassable barrier.
If the problem is funding the tests, then that’s a reasonable concern. Or maybe you feel the FDA has been biased about this drug, in the way they’ve been biased about things like plan B. That’s fine. But I still generally prefer scientifically gathered evidence to anecdote-based evidence. I prefer evidence that controls for factors like patient’s other treatment and placebo effects, and that monitors for unexpected side effects.
For instance, take your recommendation (which I totally appreciate the spirit of, by the way). You are telling me you know it’s safe because your grandmother took it. I am glad that it’s been beneficial for you and yoru family. But if we aren’t very similar physiologically, it could have very weird effects on my health. I’m allergic to a lot of stuff that most western Europeans aren’t, for instance. And also, I’m very susceptible to mood effects from plants or drugs.
I tend to have extreme reactions to medications, anyway. If there’s a nasty (non-fatal, non-permanent) side effect, I’ll usually get it. I like to have warning.
I have no problem believing some alternative medicines work. But if they work, why not prove they work?
Almost certainly. The idea that we have already discovered every plant that has any potentially useful medicinal qualities and every potential medicinal quality of all known plants is extremely implausible. Proving which ones work and which don’t is one important issue. But I’d still be in favor of isolating the active ingredient*, synthesizing it, and giving it as a “western”-style medication (“western” is in quotes because not all allopathic medications are discovered or developed in places we’d think of as the “west”) for several reasons. First, increased ability to standardize dosing. Second, decrease the chances of side effects due to other toxic components of the plant. Third, ease of transport and administration. Finally, decrease the likelihood that demand for the medication will endanger the plant’s survival.
*Whenever possible. I can, at least in theory, imagine a situation in which the plant is producing a large number of ingredients, all of which have a low level of activity in different ways such that no one can be isolated and used separately because no single component is responsible for the effect. However, I know of no such situations in real life, though I have some suspicion that the anti-nausea effect of cannibus may be more than just THC.
Are we talking about FDA approved substances? I assumed we were not, since we were talking about things that aren’t regulated.
The FDA can ban anything, as it did L-trytophan. OTOH, it does not “approve” herbs, but if any supplement is judged a “food” for some unfathomable bureaucratic reason (some amino acids, kombucha, etc) it does have power to approve or not.
Certain vitamins and other herbs are now claiming to be “whole food”–which to me is playing gotcha with the FDA, but hey, their choice, and they claim they can stand up to any analysis, so I say go for it.
Interestingly, these particular companies are rarely challenged, so maybe it’s all how you go about it?
Is this not a claim that, unlike prescription drugs, no herb can cause harm when taken properly and under supervision? Or that the side effects or interactions of herbs are always more benign than those of prescription medications? Because that claim is patently false.
No, that is not my claim. (Sorry for unclear writing.) My position is that any possible harm would not equal the possible harm of an RX drug. They simply are not as strong.
Why does everyone see this matter in black and white?
A Google search on PC SPES will provide a large number of references about the testing and withdrawal of the product.
Oh, dear God.
You brought it up and I am not going to do your searching for you. I searched enough to see that 1) no participating company is mentioned that is currently in operation and 2) you can’t name any herb that is in this remedy. I’ll ask again: WHAT HERB DOES THIS MYTHICAL CONCOCTION CONTAIN? Because if this is your example of evil herbal medicine, and you can’t name a single herb that it supposedly contains, I’d say it’s a pretty shitty example, wouldn’t you say?
Your kava example, again, is mistaken. All of the people were taking concurrent ibuprofen, according to the German monograph accounts I have read. Why are you concentrating on some Germans who used (as I said, please read carefully) the wrong part of the plant, rather than the Tahitians who have used it for millenia? Do the Tahitians not exist?
Are you therefore against all Eastern medicine modalities, including acupuncture, Ayurveda, etc? Because if it’s like that, that is a simple cultural bias that you have not examined or studied.
Because, after all, plants are never addicting. (Opium, tobacco, marijuana, alcohol…nope, no addiction problems there.)
First rule of herbology: Two of these are not like the other two–opium and alcohol require a lot of preparation (fermentation, in the case of alcohol) to use, and are transformed into food-like (processed) products, while marijuana and tobacco require no processing. Opium and alcohol are therefore distilled, extracted and much stronger. They have passed out of the herbalist category. Marijuana and tobacco remain in their natural state.
Such as? Start with something simple.
Okay, how about: http://www.consumerlab.com/
Pretty simple testing, has been going on a long time.
Since you are all WESTERN MEDICINE UBER ALLES, with highly ethnocentric arguments… I am ending this discussing before I accuse someone of cultural ignorance and xenophobia, as well as a belief in the superiority of the West–which I thought died out with Claude-Levi Strauss. Shows what I know!
If you want to continue this conversation, I will be posting on this thread at my blog, where I can’t get banned for accusing people of ethnocentrism, colonialism, and all that lefty stuff.
It’s been real! :)
WHAT HERB DOES THIS MYTHICAL CONCOCTION CONTAIN?
As the simplest of searches would have revealed, the supposed active ingredient in PC Spes is saw palminto. It is not active against prostate cancer, which is why they added the also natural (though animal derived) ingredient of estrogen.
As far as kava goes, since you are apparently incapable of clicking a link specifically stated to contain the information you claim to seek, here is an excerpt from said abstract: “…by January 2003 kava extracts had been banned in the entire European Union and Canada, and were subject to cautions and advisories by the US FDA as a result of 11 cases of hepatic failure leading to liver transplants, including four deaths. A total of 78 cases of hepatotoxicity reputedly linked to kava ingestion are available for review from various databases. Of these adverse events, four probably are linked to kavalactones taken alone and another 23 are potentially linked to kava intake, but also involve the concomitant ingestion of other compounds with potential hepatotoxicity.” (bold added)
Other reports of kava toxicity include a case of hepatitis in a previously healthy young woman taking no other medications except the “perfectly safe” herb St John’s wort. Another example of a young woman using kava and no other medicaitions with liver failure. I’ll stop now since I don’t want to overload the post with links.
Marijuana and tobacco remain in their natural state.
So? You could make a case for marijuana being relatively harmless. Tobacco, not so much so. And certainly opium and alcohol, processing needed or not (can’t grapes ferment in situ?), are certainly traditional substances. The use of alcohol, for example, was taught to me by my grandmother, who learned it from hers. Weren’t you claiming that was a measure of the safety of a product?
I was under the impression that herbal remedies are not well tested because the vast majority of testing for drugs is paid for and done by the pharmaceuticals themselves, and there is no money to be made with non-patentable herbal remedies…
…the synthetic approach is interesting. Certainly companies are exploring it, and it often brings up its own whole slew of issues about intellectual property and the co-opting of the knowledge and resources of traditional communities with absolutely no compensation.
I was under the impression that herbal remedies are not well tested because the vast majority of testing for drugs is paid for and done by the pharmaceuticals themselves,
Not entirely. Actually, the drug companies are cheap so-and-sos who rely on the NIH and academic medical centers to do a lot of their testing (which is not to say that they don’t pay for a fair amount too…but that’s as much a problem as a solution…there’s a huge amount of folk lore in the medical community about how to deal with drug company funded studies–rule #1: make sure you have permission to publish no matter what the results show…but I digress). Anyway, the NIH has a branch called the National Institute for Complementary and Alternative Medicine and it is quite well funded. Far better than many others at the moment. So don’t hesitate: submit your proposal. It’s got a very decent change of being approved.
Actually, Dianne brought it up, not me. And because I had never heard of PC SPES either, I did a Google search on it. The first three hits gave me the following information:
it contained a mixture of
* Baikal skullcap (Scutellaria baicalensis)
* Licorice (Glycyrrhiza glabra L. or Glycyrrhiza uralensis)
* Reishi mushroom (Ganoderma lucidum)
* Isatis (Isatis indigotica)
* Ginseng (Panax ginseng or Panax pseudoginseng var. notoginseng)
* Chrysanthemum flowers (Dendranthema morifolium)
* Rabdosia rubescens (Isodon rubescens)
* Saw palmetto (Serenoa repens)
Various assays by reference labs found that it also contained (at various times) warfarin, DES (a synthetic estrogen and mutagen), indomethacin, and, interestingly, Xanax. And yes, that company is now closed. I did not think that this was of general enough interest to post here, so I mentioned the Google thing for those who might want to investigate further.
I don’t see how you can possibly support this statement. The potency of a drug (that is, the amount needed to achieve the desired therapeutic effect) may or may not be related to its toxicity (amount needed to produce unwanted effects). Leaving potency aside completely, an allergic reaction to an herb can be just as fatal as any prescription drug effect.
I’ll assume that you’re addressing me, although I haven’t made any such assertions, nor have I seen anyone else in this thread do so, nor have I seen any arguments that could be called “ethnocentric”. I have no doubt that acupuncture, for example, produces a benefit in those who are inclined to expect a benefit. I also believe that some people do better when they think that others are praying for them, and that participants in thaipusam do not feel pain when they pierce their cheeks with spears while in a religious fervor. But I don’t believe in chi, or the power of prayer, or Lord Murugan.
I suspect that this discussion has veered into territory that is not of much interest to Alas readers; so if you want to continue it on your blog, Daisy, I would be happy to let you call me names over there.
Dianne, if you are interested, we have continued this discussion in a setting where I can express my opinions more freely:
Thank You (Falettinme Be Mice Elf Agin)
I guess what you’re willing to put into your body is going to be decided by the individual. Who do you trust? What do you put your faith in?
Do you feel there is value in the use of the scientific method, peer-reviewed studies and regulatory bodies? Then your comfort zone is more likely to fall with the pharmeceutical industry (I hadn’t ever thought of it as specifically western medicine, but oh well). Is your comfort zone more happy with what you can read online, evidence that is more antecdotal? How about a more eastern philosophy to how you treat your body?
I’m of the former group. It’s how I was socialized, it’s what my schooling and my immediate environment reinforce. I’m at peace with that. I would be wary in the extreme of any alternate advice about what to put into my body, especially because the “herbal” industry in North America is unregulated. Buyer beware, find someone you trust and all that. If that is a path that is comfortable for you, go for it! If you feel it’s too risky, don’t! Same goes if you feel the more “western” industry is harmful or risky.
If there’s one thing I learned in the “Complementary Care” course (that touched on and did demonstrations of many of the alternative treatments available in my particular area of North America), it was that with most things your mileage will vary, often in direct correlation to how well you believe something is going to work.
For example, I love my Bach Flower remedies but found that everything I’ve ever tried for migraines (aromatherapy, reflexology, another pressure point thing who’s name escapes me at the moment) didn’t work for shite. Stuff that everyone in the same room, same course SWORE was the miracle to end all miracles. So you win some, you lose some. Do your research, decide who you feel comfortable getting advice from, keep your regular medical practitioner appraised of what you are taking to as to avoid potentially deadly conflicts. Make any decision an informed decision, and one that YOU are comfortable with.
It doesn’t matter if it comes from a tree or a lab or was given to you directly by hyperintelligent aliens who designed it just to help you. It may be perfectly fine and helpful and do wonderful things for you, but it is a drug and should be treated with the same caution that you would treat Merck’s latest product.
No, thank you, Daisy. You’ve already implied or directly stated that I was crazy, an imperialist, a drug company stooge, and “overly hostile” to your potentially deadly advice in this forum where you have to stifle yourself. I’d as soon not see what you come up with when you express yourself freely. Good luck and avoid Gaia’s pennyroyal: it’s already killed one person. Her own fault, no doubt, for not knowing instinctively not to take it while pregnant (it had no warning label.)
I have heard that if you take birth control pills continuously, it will keep the lining of the uterine wall thin. Perhaps you should discuss that with your gynocologist. I also had to take a progesterone treatment to start my period after awhile. The worst thing is the cramps. Man, I really feel sorry for you. I mean, it’s going to suck..really really suck. :(