PortlyDyke blogs on racism and white people’s comfort levels on it:
I know that racism is still an issue, because there are white people — white people who think of themselves as liberal/progressive — who will say racist things to me when people of color are not around — even after I have confronted them in the past about racist remarks that they have made.
I know that racism is still an issue because white people seem so fucking uncomfortable about discussing it — so uncomfortable, in fact, that they avoid discussing it, even when it is clearly brought to the table by someone that they consider an ally.
I know that racism is still an issue because people of color can disappear and nobody seems to notice.
Yes, I think that racism, misogyny, and homophobia (and whole bunch of other hatred-based “isms”) are interconnected. Yes, I think that it’s important for me to “connect-the-dots” between these forms of oppression, and understand how they intertwine.
Originally linked from Pam’s House Blend.
It doesn’t help when white people who don’t know that something is racist get tagged as being racist simply for their ignorance. It gets to the point where people clam up because they have learned that almost anything they say can be found offensive by someone. It’s just so much easier to just say “fuck ’em”.
Oh, you be quiet. They should know it’s racist if they have any common sense, anyone with the brains to put themselves in any other oppressed (gay, black, female) person’s shoes should be able to think “Hey — I think I would be pissed if someone said that about me!”
Ferg, you can’t fucking make it all black people’s fault for “not teaching white people what’s racist” because every time they try they are shot down, or the situation is reflected on them and their personal actions. I don’t believe in “accidental” racism, either, because, er, it’s a FIFTH OF THE POPULATION here, how can you not know about the culture? There is no excuse for racism, because there is no excuse for stupidity. Sorry.
Oh, for fuck’s sake.
Yeah, amazingly enough, it’s always going to be easier to just say “fuck ’em,” when you’re the one in the position of social power over the “Them.” That will always be easy. Always. Always. And that has shit all to do with the fact that someone maybe once or twice made you feel uncomfortable and embarrassed by pointing out to you that in your ignorance, you said something stupidly insensitive. And it has shit all to do with someone maybe ascribing worse motives to you than you think you really deserved to have ascribed to you. It has shit all to do with any of that. What it does have to do with is privilege, because that is what privilege is.
Privilege is the place from which it is always going to be easier to just say “fuck ’em.”
So you want to do the easy thing from your position of privilege? Well, hell. That’s your…well, that’s your privilege, right? And God knows that doing the easy thing, the default thing, is a hell of a lot more relaxing than doing something that might be a little bit embarrassing, or a little bit uncomfortable, or require you to swallow some pride, or require you to put in some effort. Dude. I’m lazy too. I get that.
But if that’s what you choose to do, then fucking own it, okay? Do not pretend that it’s something that ‘Those People’ somehow forced you to do by…shit, I don’t know, trying to explain something to you once or something. Do not pretend that you really needed to be forced — forced, I say! Coerced! — into doing the laziest damned thing imaginable with your position of privilege. I mean, come on. Who do you think is really going to fall for that?
You want to do it? Do it. Own it. But don’t then act all surprised and hurt if some big ole meanie comes along and says: hey, you know that lazy-ass ‘fuck ’em’ routine? That thing that we white folks like to do, because it absolves us from having to put in any effort, and because it absolves us from having to give up even the slightest bit of our nice, comfy privilege? That thing?
Yeah. Well, that thing is a big part of racism, right there.
I wondered how long it was going to take this thread to be, “what about the White people”. Not to pick on this place because it happens a lot of places on and offline.
It doesn’t help when Whites hear that their behavior offends people because it’s racist and then assume they’ve been called a racist.
It doesn’t help when Whites use being called a racist (almost as if predicting the future) as an excuse to shut people up and down for saying that they’ve found something racist or racially offensive.
“It doesn’t help when white people who don’t know that something is racist get tagged as being racist simply for their ignorance. It gets to the point where people clam up because they have learned that almost anything they say can be found offensive by someone. It’s just so much easier to just say “fuck ‘em”.”
Perhaps you could provide an example of a time in your life when you thought of almost anything to say but then clammed up. It may or may not have been racist; we could do a brief analysis. You’re never going to get a more secure, anonymous, or divested environment.
I’ll expect you to be forthcoming, because presumably this is enough of a concern for you that you had to post the above. I can’t think of any possible reason why anyone would voice such a statement unless their concern was actually in good faith. Well, maybe one reason.
I can’t speak for the original poster, but I generally avoid participating in discussions of race precisely out of fear of saying something I shouldn’t.
I can’t speak for the original poster, but I generally avoid participating in discussions of race precisely out of fear of saying something I shouldn’t.
In real life? Sure, that’s understandable, if unfortunate. But why not someplace like here? The Internet is anonymous, and this particular blog seems to be on the tightly moderated, safely secluded end of the spectrum.
And it’s different if you simply avoid discussion of race, be it from self-consciousness or apathy or being in a cranky mood. You’re not going to win any medals, but perfect empathy after all is impossible. It’s different in the case of the original poster, who went out of her way to say something, then presumably – and I don’t know for sure until she responds to my earlier post – assumes that she gets to sit back and be a critical meta-commentator.
You bring it up, you back it up.
Participation isn’t just saying something. It’s listening/reading and thinking about what’s said/written. I think Whites often assume that we have to take the speaking role to “participate”. Then “participating” turns to “dominating” discourse especially when we get defensive on race.
Haven’t you ever faced other situations where you feared that you might say the wrong thing because you were concerned what the feelings of the other party would be and/or how you would feel or in some cases, appear if you said the wrong thing, but spoke anyway because you felt it was important to at least try? Addressing racism including your own (and I’m talking about behavior, not labeling people as “racists”) is that important.
You will say the wrong thing. You will probably get called on it. The first reaction will be defensive often times. And the lessons that you learn will probably come at others’ expense in these dialogues. Often we ignore that part because Whites have this belief that people of color are here to teach us and that’s a disrespectful and often insulting attitude.
That’s the hardest part, you’ll find is the hurt that your behavior can cause others even as you “learn”. You’ll have to examine your belief systems on different levels, different depths. You’ll find out that Whites aren’t used to having to challenge their comfort zones and that can be painful, but not nearly as painful as racism and your contribution is.
radfem@4, how is this not an appropriate place to talk about white people’s reaction to racism and how they interact with it?
I like Radfem’s points about comfort zones. I think we need to remember though is when we challenge racist behaviour, we do so not only because we think it’s wrong, but because we want the perpetrator to change their behaviour and see that race is a myth, an ideological construct used to divide and rule. The question is, how dfo we go about this? I have my opinions, but would be interested in hearing what you folks have got to say.
Where did I say it wasn’t an appropriate place to have this discussion?
My only mention of Alas, is to say that it’s not the only site of discussion I’ve seen the dynamic I’ve mentioned.
I thought that was what you were complaining about when you wrote:
I wondered how long it was going to take this thread to be, “what about the White people”. Not to pick on this place because it happens a lot of places on and offline.
No, that’s called making an observation that I’ve seen on many a blog. I didn’t want to make Amp or others who blog here feel like I was singling it out.
If you want to say it’s “complaining”, that’s okay with me. It’s not the first time I’ve heard or read that.
This dynamic really bothers me. Mostly when White feminists do it because then we turn around and complain when threads dealing with feminist, women, issues impacting us, etc. threads became “what about men” threads but we engage in the same behavior ourselves. But I think it’s a lot easier to discuss how society oppresses us from a gender standpoint for example and not as easy to discuss our roles based on racial privilege for example on oppressing other women. The latter seems to be very difficult and that’s why I often am not surprised when having to confront racism and racial privilege in its different forms seems to be treated as the hardship rather than racism and its impact.
I miss read you. Sorry about that.
The title of the post is white folks on race. How isn’t this an appropriate venue to for a white person to talk about how they see race?
btw, thanks for the polite reponse to my mistake on what you meant.
Joe – I don’t think anyone is saying that this isn’t the place to talk about how white people interact with racism. Hell, that’s the point of the post. What people – including radfem – are criticising is white people’s refusal to interact with racism. Ferg’s comments read as an attempt to justify that refusal by blaming POCs for not being perfect, endlessly patient educators of white folks.
I am not trying to justify anything. My example is my mother when she moved to South Carolina from Pennsylvania. She had had little if any contact with blacks in PA, but in South Carolina contact is unavoidable.
At the time, she thought negro was the proper reference. She thought kinky hair was the result of a perm. She didn’t know that some blacks’ palms are pink. The list continues. Finally, she just gave up trying to be civil and only spoke to blacks what was necessary to conduct her business and move on.
Also, I am not trying to make this all blacks’ faults either. I am pointing out a situation for which no solution seems to exist. Further, I used the phrase “fuck it”, not “fuck ’em”. Then we have that ‘privilege’ meme. I doubt that my mother ever heard of the ‘privilege’ argument.
Herein lies the problem. We can discuss this amongst ourselves on some niche blog, but any resolution here is academic because it will not reach any further than here.
“Further, I used the phrase “fuck it”, not “fuck ‘em”.
Um, no you didn’t. Perhaps you meant to, but here’s what you said:
And lest you feel tempted to assume I’m pointing this out because I’m one of those people who is easily offended by everything, I’m not.
Ferg – there is a solution to your mother’s problem, actually
don’t say every thought that pops into your head. can a person be expected to automatically know what a black person’s palm looks like? no. can a person be expected to know that people might not love having their physical features commented on like they’re really odd? yes. if said person doesn’t understand that instinctively, can they be expected to learn after a few negative reactions? yes.
you say she eventually stopped trying to be civil, but the sorts of interactions your description suggests to me seem extremely uncivil.
Sailorman: You’re right. I meant, ‘fuck it’.
jd: “don’t say every thought that pops into your head” That is exactly what my mother did, she stopped talking to blacks altogether. She didn’t think she was being uncivil, she thought she was just trying to be friendly by making conversation. After the backlash though, she gave up.
Actually, the responses by Brandy V. and elkins illustrate perfectly what I describe: the response to an expression of ignorance is naked vehemence and name-calling. Where exactly are people supposed to learn such things when they are not exposed to blacks and their culture? Where I grew up in Pennsylvania, the closest black population of significance was sixty miles away. That was 40 years ago, and from what I hear, it hasn’t changed.
It is fine for you all to say ignorance is no excuse, but someone cannot learn what they do not know that they do not know.
Here is my take on the whole conversation on race phenom. An actual “conversation” between earnest folks of differing opinions on the subject is rare and often disingenuous for several reasons, including but not limited to:
Many people don’t like confrontation in general and these types of “conversations” are often inherently confrontational and accusatory.
The default position is that as a white person you are assumed privileged and/or racist is simply a nonstarter for a lot of people.
Disagreement with the POV of a POC is a result of trying to protect that privilege.
The default position that POC are our teachers and we are the ignorant students is another nonstarter.
Why would the average apolitical person engage in any “conversation” with such ground rules and defaults? What exactly is the point of such conversations? Could there be a positive outcome even if both (or all, or some) people still disagree? Imho I think that most conversations on race occur between people who already agree on the subject.
Radfem:
Yes, and that listening/reading thing is for all participants regardless of color and POV.
“It is fine for you all to say ignorance is no excuse, but someone cannot learn what they do not know that they do not know.”
See, at this point I don’t think that IS an excuse– for one thing, we should all know how to sit back, shut up and listen until we figure out the basics of a cultural space, just like we would in a foreign country, or at our new mother-in-law’s house: it’s not a question of knowing everything about everybody of every color right away, it’s about assuming that people are people, and reacting accordingly.
Also, at this point we have the Internets, and anyone who feels ignorant can do some reading–there are fabulous blogs linked from this very site by people of color, many of whom talk about these very things.
Basically, ignorance is an excuse for not knowing stuff. It’s not an excuse for not finding out, and it’s not an excuse for being an idiot (actually, maybe it is an excuse for being an idiot. ..)
Also, I’ve done a lot of work in dialogue-circle style discussions of racism, and I’ve seen the disconnect you describe many times: white person admits ignorance, person of color gets frustrated by the admission. But a lot of it has to do with how these things are said, and if the white person seems to be asking for something–Reassurance? Basic instruction? A free pass to say whatever? — as opposed to just saying, hey, this is where I come from and I know it affects my perceptions.
I think having meaningful conversations surrounding these issues means that everyone needs to take a step back and give the interlocuter the benefit of the doubt. But it also means that everyone needs to recognize what a fraught subject this is, and think about how their words will be heard before they speak, and that all of us in the conversation need to understand we’re all part of a messed up system, and we all collaborate to some extent. So, everybody’s going to say something wrong at some point.
In other words, “I don’t really know what _________ people are like, because I never knew any” might be accurate, but it’s a phrasing that indicates a lack of awareness, to say the least.
I think a lot of it is knowing your level: if you’re white and you haven’t talked to people of color about the day-to-day, systemic racism that exists, you should probably try to learn a little bit about that before speaking up about it one way or another. Just like it’s a bad idea to show up on a feminist discussion and ask if women’s suffrage was really necessary…
Larry – But why is an assumption of privilege such a non-started for so many people? The idea that, all other factors aside, skin color very often changes how you are treated in this country seems obvious to me. (especially since lots of the people who reject this concept were born in a US where the color of your skin had specific legal consequences, so they really ought to know better) I mean, the existance of racial privilege doesn’t even assume that the holder wants it, just that he or she is given it automatically by society.
It’s been my experience and observation that when it comes to discussion on race and racism, Whites aren’t very good listeners and political ideology doesn’t really necessarily change that so you can have conservatives who listen better than liberals or vice versa. The word, “But…” is out of our mouths before we can help ourselves but we choose to go that route far too often.
Kira, yeah, I think Whites expect a pass and then are shocked when they don’t get one. It’s enough in their opinions just to show up.
I find the issue of “ignorance” coming up but who gets to be ignorant? Who doesn’t? And how do ignorance and racial privilege tie in together?
You can be White and clueless about systemic racism right in front of you. You can also become very aware of what you didn’t see before through learning and listening and dialogues. I know both places pretty well in the same lifetime. But again, I think it goes back to how much racial privilege allows you to ignore or even shield yourself from what’s around you.
Ferg – if you think your mother was following my advice, you either:
1. didn’t read past the first sentence; or
2. can’t think of anything you or your mother might want to talk about w/ a POC other than “why is your skin/hair/etc. ‘like that’.”
Either way, not sure there’s anything else to say other than please start being more specific about where you’re from. There’s no need to implicate the whole of our home state in your family’s ignorance.
What the hell is civil or polite by talking about someones palms? White women have pink nippes, would your mother seriously think that would be a polite conversation? Discussing her body parts that differ from mine? So she can’t discuss black peoples body parts without them getting offended and she just stops talking to them altogether?
It’s not another races job to educate your mother. I presume she can READ.
It is of course, totally obvious that “coloured” is offensive, while “person of colour” is acceptable. Just a matter of common sense, really.
Daran – that’s why I didn’t pick Ferg’s word choice example as the one to address.
That said, if you reframe it as “people might resent descriptive names chosen by a group that oppresses them and prefer descriptive names they choose themselves,” it becomes much more obvious.
That and there are a couple of decades between the fall of “coloured” and the rise of “people of colour” – plenty of time to catch up. The only way you could possibly think “coloured” wouldn’t be offensive is if you just got here in a time machine.
Or if you assumed the full name of the NAACP was inoffensive.
Not a Cookie – The existance of the National Association for the Advancement of Colored People (founded in 1909, by the way) prevents you from understanding that POC living in 2007 do not like being referred to as “colored”? Really?
As far as I can tell, Depression* is suggesting that the existence of the NAACP in its current name (unchanged) without any particular disclaimer, could lead someone who theoretically has access to the NAACP organization name but not access to any of the NAACP publications which, I assume, don’t call blacks “colored people” to believe that “the members like the name, therefore they think the reference is OK.”
As a hypothetical, it seems a little far fetched. But sure, if the only or primary exposure you have to blacks is the name alone of the NAACP it seems possible. How likely is that, though?
*No cookies = depressed. I love cookies. I cry every time I read em’s name. ;)
Sailorman – yeah, we all understood what depression (hee!) was saying. and all of us who live in the real world know that it’s nonsense. The lengths to which some people will go to excuse the inexcusable is baffling. But, hey, if they really want to paint them selves as that stupid, who am I to say they’re wrong?
NotACookie, I wasn’t trying to make fun of you–it’s just that I just got coffee, and they have these really good CCCs, and I wanted one and didn’t let myself get one, so when i saw your name I couldn’t resist my comment.
But anyway, sorry.
And reading what’s on the site itself for the NAACP and many of its different regional branches (some of which have sites) would greatly help with this distinction too.
Yes.
There’s also some really great blogs that address these issues on this posting and comment thread and other issues.
The Silence of Our Friends
The Angry Black Woman
Sailorman — got it in one.
There’s a lot of people in this country who are really not paying attention, and who might have heard of the NAACP, know what it stands for, but not actually listen to very much. Particularly if the person is older, and doesn’t pay attention to the news, I could understand being deeply muddled on what’s considered polite usage today. I think there’s a surprisingly large number of people in that category, who we don’t often think about since they’re by definition not part of the public discourse.
How excusable that sort of head-in-the-ground ignorance is, I don’t feel qualified to comment on, but I think it’s depressingly common.
PS — I like cookies too, but I’m not one.
It is of course, totally obvious that “coloured” was chosen by whites, while “person of colour” is chosen by themselves. Just a matter of common sense, really.
It’s just occurred to me that I can’t recall “person of colour” being used in a British Context. My female best friend, an ethnic Indian, describes herself as “black”. My Filipino friends and acquaintances call themselves Filipinos.
“At the time, she thought negro was the proper reference. She thought kinky hair was the result of a perm. She didn’t know that some blacks’ palms are pink.”
Thanks for actually providing examples.
Ignorance of social mores is tricky. Perhaps people with sufficient social tact wouldn’t comment on other people’s palms, but social tactlessness is not a crime. Language and norms often change faster than some people can absorb, and I don’t find the “you should have looked at Racism Theory 101” type arguments convincing, especially if it’s made with the implication that anyone who hasn’t must therefore be racist.
Where actual racism comes in is in the aftermath of those types of incidents. Do you understand why people get offended with race laden comments, more so than if you commented on their shoe size or taste in movies? Do you hold your own obliviousness to changing mores as a point of pride, or do you at least make a good faith effort to keep yourself updated? Do you at least give out an apology, in the same vein you would after stepping on someone’s foot, regardless of whether or not it can be proved in a court of law with a chain of evidence that it was *your fault*? Or do you never apologize because you shouldn’t have to – regardless of whether this is the same stance you would take with other social faux pas?
Regular, otherwise decent white folks can innocently make the odd “coloured” or “Chinaman” reference, but those who are more inclined to make an issue of it are not among them. Regular people say “oh, sorry, I didn’t know, I didn’t mean to offend” and move on – they don’t demand forgiveness on their terms, and they don’t write 3000 word blog posts on it after the fact.
“It is of course, totally obvious that “coloured” was chosen by whites, while “person of colour” is chosen by themselves. Just a matter of common sense, really.”
If you don’t have your head up your ass it is. (and if non-white Brits prefer another term, use that. my suggestion that you defer to a group’s preferred terminology still stands) The general rejection of the term “colored” by actual POC happened DECADES ago, and it has been consistently out of favor ever since. Even if one is not up-to-date enough to be familiar with the phrase POC, there are plenty of other choices that have been around for decades. They are frequently used in the mainstream press or on TV. Not just on the news, but everywhere. One does not have to go out of one’s way to hear them. In fact, the same people who claim to be confused by the NAACP and the United Negro College Fund are well aware of these preferred terms – they just contemptuously refer to them as “political correctness.” By which they mean, “the uppity demand that I treat POC with even a fraction of the respect and basic politeness which I would automatically extend to a white person without even thinking.”
jd (“quoting me”):
What do you mean “if”? Don’t you know, as a matter of common sense? If you don’t have your head up your ass, that is.
I will continue to defer to my friends’ individual preferences. (Gosh! Treating ‘them’ as individuals. Fancy that!)
But we’re not discussing what we should defer to, but our magical ability to determine “as a matter of common sense” what terms we should avoid.
I’m aware of them. I’ve always preferred “black” or “brown” over “coloured” which I thought silly. However I was unaware that it was offensive until the issue came up in a television program about a decade ago, about the Steven Lawrence Inquiry, when it emerged that some of the officers involved in the case didn’t know that the term “coloured” was disfavoured. This, you tell me, is a matter of common sense, rather than a failing in their training, which is what I’ve been thinking all these years. Thanks for putting me right.
Nobody, has ever suggested to me that whites should be referred to as “persons of albedo”. If they did, what I would extend to them would probably consist of two words.
Um, haven’t American whites had the ability to self-label for a very, very long time… like, as long as they’ve lived in the country?
Daran – Since you only mentioned your friends’ ethnicity and not their citizenship, my comment about word choice in the British context was obviously not directed at them. And I certainly never said to ignore individual preferences when you know them. I was commenting on how to have civil conversations with strangers of another race, not friends.
But if you want to pretend that words exist without context so that you can amuse yourself by twisting what people say, go ahead.
I have two “best friends”. I cannot choose between them or rank one above the other. They are each my “best friend”.
My female best friend was born in England. She’s an ethnic Indian as I said, who from the look of her may also have some African heritage She never knew her blood-father She was adopted at an early age by a white English couple, and apart from occasional contact with her blood-mother, she has no cultural connection with her ethnic heritage.
Her nine-year-old son (by a white man), has passed for white, and probably still does, though to my eyes he looks more and more Indian as he gets older.
I have another friend, though not a close one, who is also an ethnic Indian born in England to immigrant parents. In contrast to my best friend, she embraces both cultures. She is a native speaker of both Panjabi and English, and is as likely to be out and about wearing a sari as jeans and a tee-shirt.
My (white) male best friend’s wife is a Filipina immigrant who is a naturalised British citizen. Through that connection I know several other Filipina immigrants, many or all of them “mail order brides” (but not my best friend’s wife; she was a student here when they met.) And some of their children.
I’m white myself, and live in a city which I guess is 98% white. Yet I have much more purely social contact with POC than I do with whites. There’s no particular reason for that; it’s just how it happened.