If you haven’t already, check out Leigh Dragoon’s cartoon series about “Nice Guys (TM)” (although she calls them “Nice Guys (R)”).
Last year, Leigh created three of these nifty cartoons: part one (pictured above, but the linked one is bigger), part two, and part three.
This year, Leigh’s doing a new two-pager in the series, written by Lisa Jonte. You can read page one here; I hope she’ll post page two soon.
When capitalized, "Sie" is the formal way to address adults of either gender in polite German. I majored in the…
If one assumes that a person is making their money, including enough money to have no incentive to "work", by…
Ob sie wirklich Deutsch spricht. Normalweise, kommt die US Soldaten nicht ins Stadt und spricht nicht so oft mit denn…
As for being a Nazi, ich spreche fliessend deutsch und wohnte in Deutschland fuer drei Jahre mit der americanishe Luftwaffe…
And of course this "incentive" only applies to poor people: Rich people who already have enough to live off of…
Then perhaps James should have stopped at “disappointment.” Implicit in the “bitterness” sentiment is entitlement, and you know it.
I can tell you from experience that not every man who says “I wish I didn’t have to read their goddamn minds!” is all that happy with the alternative.
x-posted and… snerk
Not only are they NOT all that happy…some men persist in believing that you cannot possibly have meant what you actually said. It is called…selective hearing.
“leads me to believe that there’s some ulterior motivation going on here.”
And the consistent male denial of a phenomenon which — just this week — resulted in harrassing behavior that caused a friend of mine to quit her job after being physically threatened (because she was supposed to have sex with him, and he’s nice, he’s such a nice guy, how could she try to ruin his life like this???), makes me suspect ulterior motivation on the part of those dudes doing the defending.
Out of the mouths of babes…and Myth even may remember from TT:
‘”Forget the nice guys …I got me a good man.”
(From the 15 year old sitting in my kitchen eating a PBJ a decade ago, who is now our beloved DIL. Her simple common sense made the rounds on the boards back then. )
It remains simple common sense.
Bjartmarr,
Nice Guy(TM) comes from the plaintive cry “Why don’t women ever want to date nice guys like me?” which is the cry of the entitled, embittered, self-declared Nice Guy(TM), not the hopeful, disappointed nice guy who is unable to win the affections of someone he loves. The disparaging term Nice Guy(TM) comes from the fact that this particular category of asshole is likely to insist that they are a nice guy. Rather than having to say, “No, you are not a nice guy, nice guys don’t act like that, you are an asshole,” we can say, “Yup, you’re a Nice Guy (TM). That’s the problem.”
Really, men who are actually nice guys should be pissed off at the asshole men who have ruined the good name of “nice guys,” not the men and women who have noticed that a large proportion of people who self-describe as nice guys are actually a particular category of asshole.
Bjartmarr – no it wasn’t what James was describing. but as ahunt and I have been trying to point out to the two of you is that James is looking at X (entitlement) and trying to descibe it as B (mere disappointment). Reread what’s in the box on post #94. She doesn’t like him so he says she only likes jerks. That’s insulting. Rather than merely being disappointed, he’s insulting her.
“obviously obfuscating”? We’re talking about how hidden among the nice guys are guys who are merely pretending to be nice. You can’t describe a wolf in sheep’s clothing without using the word “sheep.” (well, you could, but that would be obfuscatory)
I do? Thanks for informing me. Is there anything else that I know that I’m unaware of?
Seriously, though, I don’t think that bitterness necessarily translates into entitlement. It can be of the, “Nobody likes me, that’s okay, I’ll just go sit in the corner and eat worms” variety. Bitterness can be directed inward as well as outward.
It’s not consistent. I’m male, and I don’t deny it — I’m well aware of the phenomenon and I’m not arguing that it doesn’t exist or that it’s not sexist and creepy. I do think that there’s a subset of the awkward, disappointed, and bitter crowd who don’t necessarily reflect the phenomenon, but I think that arguing that case would be pointless — at least in this thread.
I do think that (a) swapping words into somebody else’s sentence and then claiming that that’s what they REALLY meant is likely to cause more confusion than clarity, and (b) while I understand the reason you’re using the term, I again think that it causes more confusion than clarity (as evidenced by the fact that we’re now down to comment #105, debating a phenomenon that we’re all well aware of.)
Sorry about your friend, Mandolin.
The disparaging term Nice Guy(TM) comes from the fact that this particular category of asshole is likely to insist that they are a nice guy. Rather than having to say, “No, you are not a nice guy, nice guys don’t act like that, you are an asshole,” we can say, “Yup, you’re a Nice Guy (TM). That’s the problem.”
(bolding mine.) Thank you, Charles.
Because that is key to the Nice Guy(TM) phenomenon—-the incredibly low standards it takes to be recognized as a Nice Guy(TM). There’s a narrative (not always spoken, but sometimes it is) of “I’m a nice guy, because I don’t beat women. I’m not a rapist. I don’t steal money out of her purse. I don’t tell her what a selfish bitch she is, or how stupid she is. I don’t tell her how ugly she is when she gets a blemish or bad haircut. And to top it all off, I open doors for her and pull out chairs! See! I’m a nice guy!!
As if being a criminal or abusive prick is the standard for men.
to be a bit more charitable for the clueless men:
Men who are not necessarily Nice Guys (TM) will tend to identify with Nice Guys (TM) because:
(a) men are taught by society to identify with men at all times,
(b) many of these men try to be nice and often have bouts with loneliness, and don’t recognize the difference between that and entitlement, because
(c) being men, they don’t have to deal with the darker side of Nice Guys (TM).
But on the other hand, I’m also a man, all three of the above apply to me, and yet I don’t identify with the Nice Guy (TM). This is because I’ve learned the first rule for men in feminist spaces, which is to shut up and listen once in a while.
Thanks, Raznor. I actually really appreciate that information, because the phenomenon of men who are oftne allies trying to minimize and argue away this behavior really confuses and saddens me.
It’s called “bros before hos”, Mandolin. Not that a Nice Guy (TM) would ever use that phrasing, at least not out loud.
Mandolin, we – I’m assuming you’re grouping me in here – are not defending behaviour of the type that starky and your friend have gone through. Neither do I deny that it exists. It’s impossible for you to have read my comments and deduced anything else, so I’m going to assume that your conflation of this was unintentional.
The one thing I’ve consistently disagreed with all of you here centered around terminology. “Nice guy” is a label every guy applies to himself at some point or another, usually after a bad breakup. It’s our answer to “he’s just intimidated by strong, independent women” – so what if it’s a bit inaccurate and self-serving? It’s part of guy culture, not all of which is nefarious. And yes, after a breakup, both parties may go through a period of blaming the other, purely out of emotional self-defense. If he defends his ego, however, it’s Misogynistic.
Consider ahunt’s ludicrously wide-net denunciation of “bitterness”. Bitterness against women as a class? Sure, that’s sexist. Bitterness against a particular woman? Best he gets over it after a post-breakup grace period before it starts getting creepy, but I wouldn’t say he’s misogynistic. Bitterness against society for foisting expectations upon him that he feels inadequate to meet? Probably not psychologically healthy in the long run, but I’m of the opinion that in the meantime such guys should have my sympathy.
I know you all maintain that that isn’t what is meant by the term Nice Guy (TM). What you mean is only the limited sense over which there has been no disagreement over in this thread. So then, why do you insist on trying so hard to popularize a term after it has already been pointed out to you – in good faith – how obfuscating it is? I realize that even as I denounce the usage of the term, I’m using myself out of convenience, so I understand many others may be doing the same. But shame on those who have continued to hammer the term on ideological grounds whilst not even bothering to discuss the complaints about it earlier in the thread.
Anyways, if anyone has a direct reply to my statements, I’ll oblige, but barring that I think I’ve made my thoughts clear so I’m going to close this out.
“But shame on those who have continued to hammer the term on ideological grounds whilst not even bothering to discuss the complaints about it earlier in the thread. ”
Shame? Seriously, shame? SHAME and ULTERIOR MOTIVES? WTF?
The use of the term has been explained. “Nice guys finish last” because women prefer assholes; Why won’t she date me?! I’m such a “nice guy.”
Do you know what I felt when I first heard the term? Instant recognition. And I hear from other women that that’s what they felt, too. It’s women I want to communicate with. It’s women’s experience that needs describing. We’re the ones who get raped by these creeps, we’re the ones who get harrassed, we’re the ones who are on the oppressed end — even if some of you do believe we have mysterious pooooowers on account of us embodying the pussy oversoul.
Why exactly are we changing the term to bow to those of you who just can’t get over your identification? It confuses you? Stop. Read. Listen. Shut up. It makes you think that maybe you’ve done some of those behaviors? Maybe you have. Does that make you a bad person? No. Does that make all Nice Guys bad people? Fuck, no! Stop confusing criticism with demonization.
As to where you all just can’t tell, it makes no sense, no sense at all, where the line is between a real nice guy and a Nice Guy TM, well — you know, I can tell, and I get the impression that most women here can, even if the line will be fuzzy on some things and move aorund a bit based on personal philosophy. This reminds me of nothing so much as tohse interminable conversations about rape. Is this rape? Is this? How much rape is allowed? But isn’t it possible to be publically bitter and insult her and her boyfriend because she won’t give up teh vagina just this once?
You’re entitled to our bodies if you want them, you’re entitled to our terminology, you’re entitled to derail enormously long discussions about serious issues over what you claim is just semantics not defense? Get over it, seriously.
Also, I love, love, love, how one of the objections here is it’s just a little misogyny, just something we all do from time to time, I’ve done that, so it can’t be misogynist can it? Yup, it can. Particularly when taken as a class of actions directed against a class of people and when taken as a narrative that creates oppression of a class. You know that, I’ve seen you argue that about racism, why does knowledge of sociology fly suddenly out of the window here?
Ampersand, I am so now on board with closing this waste of a thread.
Bitterness against a particular woman? Best he gets over it after a post-breakup grace period before it starts getting creepy, but I wouldn’t say he’s misogynistic.
Uhm…you do realize we are talking about friendship and not romantic relationships here, right? If you are telling us that “bitterness” towards a (possibly former) friend who wants only friendship is NOT based in “entitlement”…then what is the foundation for such unjustified and intense resentment?
I agree that this thread isn’t going anywhere productive; with all due respect to all parties, I think everyone’s said what they’re going to say.
Also, I feel a bit guilty because I began this thread, but I’ve been way too busy with non-blog things to contribute at all. So I’m going to wait a few minutes so that any comment currently “in the pipe” gets through, then I’m going to close the thread.
UPDATE: Closed.
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