Gender is getting more complex, and interesting, every year. Transsexuals used to be understood as “a man stuck in a woman’s body” or vice versa. Happily, that understanding of transsexuality and transgenderism is being replaced in practice by an understanding infinitely richer and more interesting.
Jasperboi – a transgendered writer who recently came out as a “female-bodied man” – suggests the following componants of gender:
- Core identity (how you see yourself)
- Biological sex (the ‘official’ opinion of who you are)
- Sexual/romantic attractions (who you gravitate towards)
- Sexual/romantic attractiveness (who gravitates toward you)
- Gender expression (mannerisms, clothes, affinities, interests)
- Social perception (what conclusions people tend to make of you)
So for Jasper it lines up like this:
- Core identity Androgynous boy
- Biological sex Female (and yes I do know my karyotype, I’m a child of the 80s!)
- Sexual/romantic attractions Androgynous men, masculine gay men, feminine men, masculine women
- Sexual/romantic attractiveness Gay men, lesbian women, very young straight women
- Gender expression Androgynous pansy dandy butch
- Social perception ???????/sir/ma’am/pretty boy/butch lesbian/barely legal gay boy/?????
Mine is a great deal less interesting than Jasper’s; but if I’m honest with myself, I can see there’s more complexity there than I might have imagined:
- Core identity Male.
- Biological sex Male
- Sexual/romantic attractions Geeky women, butch women, talkative women
- Sexual/romantic attractiveness Straight women with a history of depression, older gay men
- Gender expression Pansy male
- Social perception People who meet me but don’t know me well assume I’m gay about half the time. On the phone and online, people often assume I’m a woman. But then again, a bunch of the time people percieve me as the straight guy I am.
I love Jasper’s list – it’s a good tool for reminding us how gender is a collaboration between our selves and how the world sees us, and how for some folks it’s a good deal more complex than male and female.
To Jasper’s list, I might add a catogory for expressing how strongly connected to my sex I feel. I remember, years ago, reading a pro-transsexual essays asking non-transsexuals to imagine waking up and your body was suddenly the other sex. “Wouldn’t that feel horribly wrong?,” the essay asked, assuming my answer would be “yes.” But my answer actually was, “I don’t think it would matter.”
Of course, I can’t know without trying – but having searched my feelings, I’m pretty sure that my body’s sex just isn’t an important part of my self-identity. When I hear some transsexuals talk about how important it is for them to have a particular sexed body, I’m sympathetic, but I’m also bewildered; I can’t imagine caring so much about something so (to me) irrelevant.
Actually, I’ve often fantasized that the world might be better if people now and then randomly woke up the opposite sex. It would sort a lot of silly problems right out. (Of course, if I did wake up female, I’d regret the pay cut. :-p )
Jasper goes on to say:
I reject that paradigm, which isn’t as easy to do as just saying “I reject that paradigm,” believe me! It is a constant, sometimes daily struggle against the current of the mainstream. Rather than saying I am a man trapped in a woman’s body, I say I am a female-bodied man. It is a small, but crucial difference. In my version, “female” is part of what I am, not something I wish to escape. And the odd thing is, I have found people find it harder to accept as plausible than the “trapped” scenario, which they are used to by now, thanks to the media. “But don’t you want a REAL male body?” Well even if I did, and even if I had the money and inclination to buy the best SRS a person can get, I’ll never have a “real” male body with a prostate and XY chromosomes. So why bother wanting it? Why not just accept myself not as a contradiction in terms, but as a complex being with varied facets?
There’s lots more – read the whole post here..
Core identity: a shy, butch woman
Biological sex: a shy, wimpy man
Sexual/romantic attractions: most women except those in the Sports Illustrated swimsuit calendar and Coors commercials, a few very effeminate men and traditionally attractive “passable” transsexuals
Sexual/romantic attractiveness: no one
Gender expression: wanna-be GQ that just doesn’t come off; ugly eye for the fat guy
Social perception: eunuch, desperate and clingy, or a closeted homosexual in denial
You fucking queers are all the same. Always blaming America for the world’s problems. Your self loathing disgusts me. Why don’t you move to Canada you fucking pacifist.
Hey, this looks fun…
Core Identity: An effeminate male.
Biological Sex: Male.
Sexual/romantic attractions: Women with curves (so, nothing anorexic), shy women, geeky women, and occaisionally fellow effeminate men.
Sexual/romantic attractiveness: Young girls, straight women with a history of depression, gay men my own age
Gender expression: A skinny, artsy boy with just a dash of pink.
Social perception: Online, people have a tendency to think of me as being female, but I suspect that has more to do with my pseudonym than any behavioural sort of thing. In person, people who don’t know me well think I’m gay; people who know me sort of well are pretty sure I’m straight but wonder; people who know me really well should know I’m pretty-well straight. I’d probably wear skirts and some light make-up if I didn’t think that I’d get killed in this city. I mean, when your town is the proud home of Focus on the Family, a sarong is a bad purchase.
Attachment to sex: About half the time I think I’m beautiful as I am, and about half the time I wish I could wake up as a woman so I could actually be allowed to look pretty (because I mean: guys have shit, shit, shit clothes and aren’t suppost to even know the meaning of the word hygiene). So I guess my sex does matter to me.
Or Frace. I hear Frace is an absolutely fabulous place for America-hating pacifist pinko commie liberal types.
But not fucking America. America is for people who are not pro-pussy.
Or… Something.
Core Identity: bad-ass man
biological sex: male
sexual/romantic attractions: women close to my age, and maybe a few particularly gorgeous men (so far, as far as male goes, it would only be Matthew Bellamy, who, with that singing voice, I’m sure could convince me to have sex with him in a minute)
sexual/romantic attractiveness: all of humankind
gender expression: typical college boy fare, only of the intensely sexy variety
social perception: I’m pretty sure online and otherwise I’m more or less typically male, noticeable only for my unbelievable sexiness (okay, yes I think a lot of myself. what of it?)
That is fun.
Oh, and while I’m at it, I do hope you’re being satirical there Raging Dave, so I won’t get too upset by that. But please if you are, give us more of a hint that you’re kidding.
Sadly, I’m afraid he’s not. Actually, I’m completely sure of it, as I just had a look at his blog, which is only a bit more articulate than the “comment” above. PinkDreamPoppies got the guy’s level quite right. No humor, alas.
So for me:
Core: androgenous boy
Biological sex: [undisclosed]
Sexual/romantic attractions – twinks, bykes, waifs, kids, geeks, sex radicals.
Sexual/romantic attractiveness – men, aardvarks
Gender expression manly voice, androgenous clothes, barfly
Social perception monosexual
well then, it’s just stupid. I have trouble being offended by things that are just so blatantly devoid of anything resembling intelligence, and just try to wrestle around the question of, “Why the hell did he actually expound on the effort to post that?”
This is why I thought it was satire, I couldn’t imagine a person being so stupid as to do that unless it was a bad attempt at being funny. Perhaps I have too high an opinion of humanity.
Raging Dave’s comment is so ridiculous – so unprevoked, it seems like it would be a troll, or a joke. Which is really the same thing. Regardless, Raging Dave has this on his site:
It seems that there has been someone using my name! Yep, some twitterpated nutjob thought it would be great fun to use my name and my info to go trolling some blogs.
From the comment he left over at Armed Liberal, his IP number is 64.12.96.205, and well, mine is not. If you’ve come here all upset over a comment left on your blog, please check the IP before you start typing in the comments. If you happen to get any more information on the troll, please drop me a line. And if you’re not sure just who is leaving trails of crap all over your comments, let me know. I’ve been known to use a bit of vitrol in my writing, but trolling is something I won’t sink to.
If I start an arguement, I’ll stick around to argue.
UP
Core identity: Jake (sorry, gender just doesn’t feature as part of my identity, really)
Biological sex: Female (I assume. Never had a karyotype done, but I think it’s a safe guess)
Sexual/romantic attractions: People who blur gender lines (especially FTM). Tall, skinny men with long hair. (Although, honestly, appearance is way down at the bottom of my list of important features for a potential lover) Feminists. Geeks who are nonetheless politically aware.
Sexual/romantic attractiveness: Hard to say. Straightboys of all ages. Butch dykes.
Gender expression: Fairly conservative (but not feminine) woman. Soft butch. By and large I just don’t like people looking at me, so I try not to look unusual or unexpected.
Social perception: Straight woman or soft butch dyke, depending on context.
Heh, I’m not very interesting, I guess.
Let me dip my toe in the gender identity waters…
Core identity : grown-up riotgrrl who hangs out with the boys
Biological sex : female
Sexual/romantic attractions : pretty-but-dangerous Johnny Depp-esque men, tall, broad-shouldered men with a little bit of a beer belly…think 1930’s era circus strongmen, and voluptous women along the lines of Kate Winslet
Sexual/romantic attractiveness : older black men, grown-up punk rockers, young college lesbians
Gender expression : gypsy-esque woman with alot of eyeliner
Social perception : back in the days when my mohawk was like a well-trimmed hedge, everyone assumed I was a lesbian, but now that I’m married and my hippie husband made me grow my hair, people think I’m a plump young mother.
I don’t have any kids, I guess I just have that “I’ll scold you then hug you” look.
I should have been a dominatrix (for longer).
After reading both Tor’s comment and the post he’s quoting from, I have to take back what I said earlier, at least temporarily: it was wrong to assume right away that the insulting sentence was posted by Raging Dave himself and not an usurper. That looks like a new trend: Tom Tomorrow, aka Dan Perkins, is having the same problem and had to specify in his blog that he never ever “does” comments (that’s pretty much the only thing he and Dave have in common).
Do we really have to choose between this and inhumane spambots?
(For the record, the post quoted by Tor was not up when I posted my previous comment/response to Raznor.)
It’s funny – by looking at other sites that troll Dave had visited (according to the comments on Raging Dave’s site), I’ve found some other blogs that are really interesting. By going out and finding the opposite of Raging Dave to post his little comments, he did some great detective work for me. What an interesting way to find blogs – follow the troll! Of course, this isn’t what I was supposed to do, I was supposed to get very, very upset with troll Dave’s comments, and debate them for hours. Sorry troll, no trix for you.
Good morning. It looks like the same cut and paste the troll has been using all over the web, with a few words changed. Too bad the troll doesn’t actually READ what I write, otherwise he would know that I have a rather large problem with homophobes.
I’m conservative, not Republican.
And yes, he’s gone to a number of interesting sites that I wouldn’t have found on my own. Pretty cool, actually. Anyways, if you have any doubts about who it is, just check the IP’s. This is one of two IP’s that I use. So far we’ve tracked the troll to the IP’s you have listed above, and 205.188.209.11, which I was told about this morning. If anyone knows of other sites that the troll hit, please let me know at wraithwulf@yahoo.com, if you would.
Thanks in advance.
Hmm. My post seems to have been eaten or something. Let’s try that again.
Core identity: Female
Biological sex: Male
Sexual/romantic attraction: Dorky boys, strong women, anyone with a strong sense of self regardless of gender, genderqueers (especially FtM’s)
Sexual/romantic attractiveness: So far, a sweet dorky genderqueer boi and a few BDSM-oriented women, otherwise I’m still figuring that out
Gender expression: Female
Social perception: Really tall, confident female, even though I don’t feel that confident inside
Some interesting stuff in what Jasper says. As a MtF transsexual myself, I can say that he’s right, there’s a lot of pressure to conform to binary norms. A great deal of that pressure is social, but an awful lot comes from the medical community, on which we are forced to rely. A great many doctors and therapists see their role as “gatekeepers”, weeding out those who they see as insufficiently oriented to the gender they want to be physically (see Lydia Johanssen’s great comic on the subject here)
SRS is the same way. If we can’t “prove” we’re what we say we are sufficiently, and often the barriers presented are significant, we can’t have it. Or are forced to fly to Thailand and find a surgeon who isn’t so picky. This seems more of an issue among MtF’s than FtM’s, given the latter group seems to have grown an enviable culture around themselves that doesn’t put so much importance on genital congruence.
Oh, and since nobody’s mentioned it, the TG Day of Remembrance is on November 20. Try to at least spend a moment thinking about those who died for just being who they were.
Kelseigh, I very much agree with you about the role of the medical community in enforcing conservative gender roles on folks seeking SRS – [self-horn-tooting]I even blogged about that, once.[/self-horn-tooting]
Thanks for letting me know about November 20th.
(Jake, I think I dated you in college.)
Core identity: polysexual womon
Bio sex: female
Sexual/romantic attractions: feminists; fey men, gay men, intelligent and urbane men, older men, bi men, geeks; butch women, voluptuous women, well-travelled women, FTMs, sensualists. (Or, in the immortal words of Margaret Cho: “Am I gay? Am I straight? Then I realized, I’m just slutty.”)
Sexual/romantic attractiveness: I have no idea. I assume my admirers are legion.
Gender expression: womanly
Social perception: I’ve been taken for straight, lesbian, mother, married, and, when I was younger, skinnier, and in low light, male. I’m none of those.
Thanks for pointing that out, I’ve only been reading you for a short time so I had missed it. You’re right on the money.
Funny thing is, in a lot of ways I am that “classic transsexual”, in that I feel quite comfortable as a fairly conservative (in the gender sense) woman. However, I have a great deal of empathy, and an even greater amount of respect and admiration, for the genderqueer community that tries to live outside the binary. That might be a bit hypocritical, I’m not sure. I do know it’s the best way I know how to live my life, under the circumstances.
what does the word “genderqueer” mean?
Flippant answer: What do you want it to mean?
More helpful answer: Genderqueer is a self-identied name usually applied to people who either do not identify as part the established gender binary, or who identify as both extremes at once. It’s defined entirely by the individual, so an emperical definition is tough. There are no clear limits on who’s genderqueer and who isn’t.
Honest answer: I don’t know. Sexy as fsck, though.
(Jake, I think I dated you in college.)
Heh, Cleis, not likely. I’m still in college and just ended a fairly LTR, so unless three years ago you were the putzy boy named Jesse who I dated for two weeks… ;-)
Kelseigh, great answer to the genderqueer question. I refer to myself as genderqueer specifically because gender doesn’t feature in my identity. I also, despite being female, have a boy’s name and prefer masculine pronouns. Just because I’m contrary and don’t want people assuming I’m a woman just because I look like one.
I guess I’m not sure why the word “genderqueer” is needed when “queer” already seemed to cover bisexual territory. Especially since the definition of “genderqueer” seems vague even to people such as yourself who are using it…? Seems basically like a meaningless little piece of slang to separate the hip from the square. Nothing wrong with that, I suppose, if one is honest about it.
Ah, there’s where you’re slipping up, ???. Gender and sexual orientation are two entirely different concepts.
A drag king who likes men isn’t necessarily gay. The great bulk of male crossdressers are straight. A transsexual isn’t gay, lesbian, or bisexual because of their gender issues. Someone who tries to live in the middle, paying allegience to no gender in particular, is not anything by default. And they’re not necessarily asexual, either.
To connect sexual orientation with gender is to risk some very damaging stereotypes, and we can’t afford many more than the ones we’ve got.
Exactly. Notice, ???, that in my post about why I’m genderqueer I said nothing about who I’m attracted to. Queer has to do with who you fuck, genderqueer has to do with who you *are*
I see. You’re giving me a little more info now. My question was sincere, not rhetorical. I honestly had no idea what that word was supposed to mean, and your first answer seemed to indicate that it could mean whatever someone wanted it to mean. So, I kinda had a hard time figuring out how an infinitely inclusive word could be useful. I’m starting to see the point of it, though it seems a little too multisyllabic and academic for my preferences.
It is a slippery word, but then it’s a slippery concept. We’re talking a part of society that’s still in tremendous flux, and the language reflects that. A word like “genderqueer” for instance, has a general meaning, but what the specific meaning is depends on the individual. Sort of like the difference between “transsexual” (a medical term) and “transgender” (an umbrella term without a clear definition).
I believe someday we’ll have a better handle on it. But it won’t be for some time, I’m sure.
In response to Ampersand’s original comments regarding how he doesn’t really understand how gender is such a part of self-identity, I think (based upon my admittedly limited reading on the subject) some people’s minds are really strongly gendered so that if there’s a discrepancy between the gender of the mind and the sex of the body, it’s a really big deal.
Personally, I don’t feel that my mind (as distinguished from my physical brain, which is affected by various combinations of hormones and other neurotransmitters) is particularly gendered in itself–but I can see how other peoples’ minds might be. If I woke up out of the Matrix and found out that I was a man, I’d be thrown for a loop, sure. But I think there’s the possibility that I’d readjust.
Actually, that’s an important point, and one that people don’t often bring up.
Aside from the effects of hormones on the brain (for instance, the different hormones have different effects on the brain’s communication centres), gender isn’t really something that consciously impacts on most people. It’s so far in the background that the only way most men get uptight about being “real men” is socially, rather than as an identity issue. By and large, the vast majority of people don’t think about it, and rightfully so.
This creates a problem for transsexuals, genderqueers and such to educate others, though. We can tell people our stories, explain the medical issues, even show them. But there’s a certain level of understanding that actually requires you be there, and only the most perceptive (including a few here, I would guess) can make that jump.
Not that it’s not worth trying, though.
“gender isn’t really something that consciously impacts on most people … the vast majority of people don’t think about it …”
Huh?
It sure seems to consciously impact on me that I am a failed man, who can’t love a woman because none of them want to be with me. I cannot fulfill the role I was born to fulfill, to love. That feels like an impact to me.
It impacts on women who are nearing the age at which they can no longer have children.
It impacts on girls who start menstruating.
It impacts on men when their voices change and they start having wet dreams.
It impacts on everyone who feel confusion because they don’t completely fit within the societal expectations attached to their gender.
Most of what the human race is doing at this moment is living out their gender roles: finding mates and building careers so they can support children. When this struggle is thwarted by various factors, economic, social, etc., there are major psychological effects.
People are majorly effected by gender on a daily basis. Every time I make eye contact with a woman and wonder whether she’s single or attached, gay or straight, that interaction is affected by my gender.
I think those are more gender roles than gender identity. A girl menstruating for the first time doesn’t doubt she’s female. Nor does a boy whose voice cracks. Gender identity (which I should have specified, sorry) is background. Like breathing, most people don’t think about it unless it becomes a problem.
That’s the thing about gender. It affects almost everything in some way. But most people don’t notice it unless they’ve got some reason to. Because it’s so all-pervasive.
So for me:
Core: androgenous boy
Biological sex: [undisclosed]
Sexual/romantic attractions – twinks, bykes, waifs, kids, geeks, sex radicals.
Sexual/romantic attractiveness – men, aardvarks
Gender expression manly voice, androgenous clothes, barfly
Social perception monosexual
Posted by: aardvark,arbitrary, the on November 15, 2003 06:50 PM
I noticed in the above post that the person say “kids” for sexual/romantic attractions.
I find that a little disturbing. Is this person a pedophile in addition to their other sexual interests?
No, kim, goats.
Wow – – what an interesting exercise. What struck me while struggling through it is how different this list would have been for me 100 pounds ago. People have two drastically different sets of stereotypes for fat redheads and thin redheads, and people’s changed perception of me has had a major impact both on who I find attractive and who is attracted to me.
Also, I agree w/Amp – I’ve thought about how I’d feel if I woke up male one morning and anything that would bother me about it would be mostly logistical (none of my clothes would fit anymore, my fat would probably be redistributed in a very disorienting manner, it would take me a while to get used to going to the men’s rather than the women’s room and once I got there to get used to peeing in front of a bunch of strangers). I feel pretty sure my sexual preference would still be heterosexual, in spite of the fact that I am only occasionally attracted to women now. I don’t know why that is, given that I don’t feel strongly attached to my physical gender.
For what it’s worth, here’s what I came out with:
Core Identity: Female
Biological Sex: Female
Sexual/Romantic Attractions: Sweet, funny, smart men around my age; seriously unattainable men; anyone nice who is flirting with me in an obvious enough manner that I know for certain they are flirting with me
Sexual/Romantic Attractiveness: Men who are lonely, paranoid, creepy and older than me by 15 or more years; drunk homeless men; butch women; smart, sweet funny men I’ve interacted with only via email
Gender Expression: Female, but too lazy to tart up
Social Perception: Sweet, rosy-cheeked, movie musical nun (the chubby one who provides comic relief).
MG
hi im going to try this out:
Core Identity: female in bubble soap.
Biological Sex: Male.
Sexual/romantic attractions: women who like the winter.
Sexual/romantic attractiveness: simple women, under 30, who have no confidance at all.
thats cute…
Gender expression: skinny
gender can be very tricky some times…
Core identity: Male
Biological sex: Male
Sexual/romantic attractions: slightly butch to medium femme women
Sexual/romantic attractiveness: random women – no particular social group.
Gender expression: socialized American male, slight macho tendencies (sports fan)
Social perception: straight, but not particularly macho, male.
Oh, and also add “Raging Dave” to my sexual/romantic attractions.
Oh…I’m not Amy again….and looking through the rest of the thread, neither of us are attracted to Raging Dave. ;)
I was most interested in the “if you woke up tomorrow the other sex” proposition–I always wondered what it would be like to be male–not because I “feel” male, but just out of pure curiousity. I always thought that would be incredibly interesting, rather than disturbing or upsetting.
As for the little questionnaire, well, I have four main rules:
1. No pain.
2. No excrement.
3. No outlandish costumes. (I inserted “outlandish” to provide some wiggle room, if needed, though I really don’t bother with costumes other than daily clothing.)
4. No other species.
That gets me pretty far.
Other than that, let’s see:
Core identity: human
Bio sex: female
Attractions: humans
Attractive to: pretty wide range of humans, mostly but not exclusively male (I have a lot of friends of both bio sexes, and I think that younger women sometimes look to me for a kind of guidance–they don’t necessarily want to do what I’ve done or do, but they like it that SOMEONE’s doing it, and somehow this fits into this category, I think)
Social perception: varies wildly depending on context
So I’m thinking, here, that most of the people commenting in this thread should go pick up an issue of the comic ‘How Loathesome’ by Tristan Crane and Ted Naifeh. http://tednaifeh.com/howloathsome/books.html
It’s awesomely genderqueer.
Me:
Core identity (how you see yourself): Many identities inside me, some male, some female, most bisexual.
Biological sex (the “official” opinion of who you are): Male.
Sexual/romantic attractions (who you gravitate towards): Strong, smart women of all orientations and shapes. Strong, smart men, preferably slim and not too hairy.
Sexual/romantic attractiveness (who gravitates toward you): Geeky women who find sarcasm attractive.
Gender expression (mannerisms, clothes, affinities, interests): Jeans and tee-shirt. Not the butchest thing on this earth. Cries at movies — adventure movies, that is. Can swish for a few seconds at a time.
Social perception (what conclusions people tend to make of you): Pussified male.
Mary Garden, I’m curious as to what you meant when you stated that your weight loss affected who you were attracted to (not just who was attracted to you). Was this a function of you simply thinking you had more of a chance getting certain types of people, or did your entire personality change as a result?
Don’t mind Aaron. We have this remarkable animus/anima thing going. He’s just in denial about it. :D
It’s funny, I see a lot of responses saying “If I woke up tomorrow morning as [other gender], it wouldn’t be such a big deal”. I’ve got to say though, as someone who has tried to live as both genders, there were things about living as a man I never did get. It’s hard to define, really. It was like living in a foreign country with only a rudimentary smattering of the language. You just don’t function properly. And here I was, in the country of the men, not knowing how I got there and muddling through as best I could. But now, in Womanland, it’s all so much easier.
My personal experience, of course, and YMMV. But at least I can say by experience, rather than theory, that there is some sort of difference, hard to pin down as it is.
Oh, and a nod to Anonymouse, who mentioned sexual attraction changing based on your point of view. I personally have noticed that although I’ve always been bisexual, I was primarily attracted to women until I began transition. Since then, my attracitons have evened out, and I like men a lot more. I think that’s got more to do with the fact that I’m repressing my attractions less, now that I know myself better, than anything inherent in being female. Take that for what you will.
Ooh, can I play?
Core identity: I don’t really think of myself in terms of gender.
Biological sex: Female
Sexual/romantic attractions: Liberal men with brains, a specific sense of humor, and clean clothes. Techies. Grammar curmudgeons.
Sexual/romantic attractiveness: My significant other, who meets all the above qualifications
Gender expression: I wear comfortable pants, shirts, and shoes. Where does that put me?
Social perception: I assume generically female, but I’m not sure
I’ve got to say though, as someone who has tried to live as both genders, there were things about living as a man I never did get. It’s hard to define, really. It was like living in a foreign country with only a rudimentary smattering of the language. You just don’t function properly.
Well, it’s funny, I’m a mostly straight woman (both at core and biologically), and I think that *being* a woman feels right to me. However, I have two interesting and discordant observations:
1) the vast majority of women seem mysterious to me. Not in the sense that I don’t know how to have meaningful chats or be “girlish,” but in that most of them seem to have mental muscles that I lack (say, an interest in a bridal shower event), and lack others that I have (say, comfort joking and flirting with members of both sexes).
2) men seem easy for me to get along with and understand. However, it’s pretty clear to me that I get along with them *as a women who has male friends,* and not as a man. I have the sense that if I were to *become* a man, I would find that there were aspects of the language that I didn’t speak or even recognize, at least initially.
I wonder how much of my tendency to have male friends derives from (a) a general high level of self-confidence and outgoingness (that perhaps scares away quieter women or makes me have less in common with many of them), and (b) the fact that I have found male friends with highly “feminized” social skills/interactions such that I can have many of the conversations that used to be reserved for my (one or two) close female friends….
just more grist for the mill.
And to add to acm’s last list there, I actually have a number of friends–or, at least, pleasant, friendly interactions–with men who typically don’t think of women as “friends.” I attribute this to the fact that I’ve done a lot of things around men–my majors in college & grad school were majority male, though not as overwhelmingly so as would be the case in, say, engineering, and I play a sport that very few women play (a growing number play on the college level, but no one else of my age/experience in the circles where I play). So I’ve asked them questions–why did you do this? what did you think about that?–that men probably don’t ask (and maybe women don’t either), and I’ve gotten answers, which has given me insight into men that I would otherwise have never known. On one hand, they initially respond to me because they’re attracted, in some way, but it’s also the case that on some other level they eventually kind of forget that I’m female–it becomes a less important thing about me. And I don’t do “girly” very well, either; I keep thinking about Gloria Steinem’s Playboy bunny experience, and her observation that all women are female impersonators.
I would like to add “grammar curmudgeons” to my list of sexual attractions. Thank you, Hestia.
My gender – I’m a woman – is enormously important to who I am, and not necessarily because I want it to be. It affects everything – what I eat, the way I dress, the way I speak and walk, my athletic ability (or lack thereof), my comfort dancing or crying or laughing in public. My gender affects my sense of physical safety. It affects what I read and write. It affects the way I interact socially and professionally.
We live in a society highly stratified by gender; how could my experience be other than what it is? The internal dialogue I have when deciding whether to wear make-up to a professional engagement, to take a small example, is very different from the inner dialogue a man would (or wouldn’t) have.
I’m not sure whether I feel up to describing myself by this scale, but I’m amused at the number of people listing “grammar curmudgeons” among their attractions. One of my husband’s catch phrases has been “I’m a pedant. It gets me chicks.” (sometimes abbreviated as, “chicks dig pedants.”)
Anyway, just had to share this. Intelligence fetishists of the world unite!
Ooooh, I’ll third the “grammar curmudgeons.” Not least because I’m frequently accused of being same.
In some ways, it seems to me that one of the root questions here is “How much would you be different if you were a different sex? In what ways?” And, of course, most of us can’t really answer that question–I’d argue that even the people who’ve changed or bend gender/sex come at it from a particular way that not all of us can understand in some deep way.
I keep thinking of a question someone once asked me–challenging me (in a friendly, not a combative way) to think about the ways “femininity” might be an advantage. I thought about it for awhile, and eventually said that I couldn’t think of any advantages to femininity, but that there were two advantages to being female: (1) in our current culture, I’m permitted a wider range of emotional expression, and (2) multiple orgasms. (Yes, I know, some men can have multiple orgasms, too.) There are disadvantages, too, in some times/places, of course, but that wasn’t the original question.
Anyway, I wonder what the distinction is between acting as a woman–given that I’m female, I sort of can’t act any other way–and acting (or being perceived as acting) a certain way BECAUSE I’m female. What’s the distinction between happening to be a particular sex, and being defined by the sex one happens to be? And, of course, there are four million answers to that question, too.
“I keep thinking of a question someone once asked me–challenging me (in a friendly, not a combative way) to think about the ways “femininity” might be an advantage”
I actually think that the “wider range of emotions allowed” fits in under here, since it’s a cultural perception.
And I believe Madeline Albright once remarked that being able to use concealer for under eye circles was an advantage.
Hmmm. It never occurred to me that “wider range of emotions” could be an advantage, mostly because when women express those emotions, they’re derided as weak and not to be taken seriously: “Oh, it’s just her ‘time of the month,'” no matter if I’m giddy or pissed off about something or sad. And the value of logic and reason has been drilled so hard into me that I tend to suppress overt emotion in the first place.
And the concealer…well, why would I have to hide undereye circles in the first place? Personally, I would prefer to just look tired without being expected to resort to makeup to “fix” it.
As for the multiple orgasms: I thought they were just a myth.
Advantages I see to being female:
More wardrobe choices
Internal reproductive organs
Greater likelihood of being a supertaster
Further advantages:
* no military draft (in the USA)
* can do the goth look without looking like idiots
* “women and children first”
* longer life expectancy
* chance to appear in Robert Palmer videos (offer expired)
I’m not going to try to classify myself using Jasperboi’s categories, but I’m wondering what it means that I (a heterosexual male) am attracted to lesbians.
Anyway, I have a hard time understanding what it means to be male or female in any sense other than the biological. Yes, there are certain personality traits that are primarily associated with one sex or the other, but there are almost as many exceptions to such stereotypes as there are people who conform to them. And it is very difficult to know how much of that is a social construct.
This is the reason that I’ve always found the concept of sexual preference pretty mysterious: exactly what is it that triggers a person’s possible-mate-detector and lets him or her identify a person as their type of man or woman? I would think it would have to be superficial mannerisms or facets of physical appearance. But those superficial aspects can be misleading. A man who at first strikes one as a woman isn’t any less of a man and isn’t any more of a woman (at least when it comes to being attractive to heterosexual men).
I’m ambivalent about internal reproductive organs, but perhaps that’s because I’m about to have mine tinkered with this week.
I thought Daryl’s question is interesting–I’ve wondered the same thing myself. The best answer I’ve been able to come up with is “smell”–probably pheremones or something. I’ve certainly enjoyed sex with women (and I’ve long contended that, after a certain point, it really doesn’t matter the sex of the person who’s doing whatever it is s/he/they is/are doing), but something about the way men smell to me does something to me. There are many other possible reasons to be attracted to (and even have sex with) someone, of course–upon many of which I have acted, at one time or another. Actually, the other thing I’d add, in answer to Daryl’s question, is a certain comfort level with the person one is. I don’t mean swagger, or arrogance, or its relatives (in men or women); I generally think of those as compensations. It’s more that one knows who one is, basically, and is okay with that. I find that attractive.
Hestia, you may actually be the first person I’ve seen playing this ‘game’ who comes out as the same gender as me, under this expanded definition of gender! Except I would replace Liberal men with brains with Liberal people with brains. I’m no more strongly attached the gender of my romantic partners than to my own; using old-style binary labels that makes me bisexual, but I think I prefer it this way.
Oh, and multiple orgasms do exist. I guess that’s one more tick for me on the ‘female’ side of the chart.
Core identity (how you see yourself): Woman identified smart-ass pinko
Biological sex: Female
Sexual/romantic attractions: funny, easygoing, respectful and intelligent men
Sexual/romantic attractiveness: It’s in flux right now (long story).
Gender expression: Generally neutral, some femme qualities (serious lipstick fixation and hairtossing habit) and some butch qualities (esp. knuckle-cracking and cursing).
Social perception: In a nutshell–radical feminist pinko smart ass dominatrix in comfortable shoes backrub slut frigid hootchie mamma from hell.
I agree with Hestia that women’s emotions are often cited as a sign of their weakness. And I don’t think it’s true that women have a wider range of emotional expression at their disposal than men do. Women are supposed to suppress anger (especially a “take charge” kind of anger), while men are supposed to suppress emotions that suggest vulnerability. Patriarchy screws us all on this one.
Are greater wardrobe options a benefit? Sometimes they feel like a curse. I’m quite sure fat women have fewer choices than fat men, for the simple reason that the “normal” range of sizes in men’s clothes is broader than the normal range of sizes in women’s clothes. I’m in my 30s, both a student and a professional, and when I shop, I feel like my options are conservative and matronly or sexy. Young women’s clothes, at least, are all about showing off women’s bodies.
Women aren’t drafted because they aren’t thought physically strong or emotionally stable enough to fight, because they’re fetishized as baby-machines, and because men like to keep important, public moral decisions to themselves. Women don’t have the option, for example, of resisting the draft, and I think having that option represents an important moral choice.
I think the so-called benefits of femininity come at too high a price, and that femininity – the learned behavior and affect – is a necessary part of women’s oppression.
Great points, Cleis.
“I’m quite sure fat women have fewer choices than fat men,”
What is the point of playing this sort of
who’s-got-it-worse game? We’re both fucked. If you saw the selection at the men’s big and tall shop you would not feel cheated out of some abundant cornucopia of plus-size fashion. Trust me. The stuff sucks.
Note that I distinguished between the benefits of “femininity”–of which I could find none–and the benefits of being female. (Also note that I made that particular observation 20 years ago . . .)
As for the emotional expression thing, well, yes, I agree that men and women are often criticized for having or expressing emotions (although not for having the same ones)–does anyone remember how Ed Muskie crying pretty much sank his campaign? (Probably dating myself on that one.) But I still say that one way to deal with this is to go ahead and express what we feel–men, women, whomever. To the exclusion of rational thought? Hell no; I’m a big fan of rational thought, and I don’t think life is one big group therapy session. It’s not all about me and my feelings. And some people won’t be able to deal with it, and other people will. As much as possible, don’t let the former group rule your life.
It was very liberating for me about 5 years ago to realize the separation of these different characteristics: I am a straight butch woman. It gave me a way of understanding why I had several experiences of friends saying they always thought I was gay. There is interesting discussion of this in Jennifer Terry’s book: An American Obsession: Science, Medicine, and Homosexuality in Modern Society
Genders are what verbs have. People have sexes. And there are only two sexes: male and female. All the nuances are just quirks of your sexuality. Or, better yet, of your individuality.
How you define yourself is your business. But when you start insisting that everybody’s yoo-neek constellation of traits is a Brand New Gender — that is, a brand-new biological construct — worthy of its own bathroom at the train station, or its own department at the local university, that’s where I draw the line.
FatDude: What is the point of playing this sort of who’s-got-it-worse game?
Because victimology is the entire raison d’être of the left these days. Perhaps, however, I should spell it “vyctymology.” After all, “Vic” and “Tim” are men’s names, and we wouldn’t want to be Supporting The Patriarchy, would we?
As I stated in response to your comment in my blog,
Gender is a social construct.
And sex is not binary either.
For example, people with Klinefelter syndrome have XXY chromosones, and there are many cases of infants born intersexed.
Just because doctors may surgically alter them to fit into one of the two categories, that doesn’t mean they belong there.
[ObSF: have you ever read Shadow Man by Melissa Scott?]
Not much to say except:
Core identity (a pshycological matter defined by one’s awareness of one’s self – has a lot to do with one’s opinion of one’s self)
Biological sex (a physical matter definition literally – has nothing to do with opinion)
Sexual/romantic attractions (a psychological matter defined by one’s desires created by many factors none of which define a person)
Sexual/romantic attractiveness (see above)
Gender expression (see above)
Social perception (what does it matter what other people think? to be concerned or have fixed ideas about this is a waste of time considering what other things we can do with our time and minds)
Just ’cause I can’t seem to find it, can somebody point me to the post where one of us lefties advocated for separate pissers all around? Thanks.
No one in this thread advocated for “separate pissers all around.” However, here in the People’s Republic of Taxachusetts, someone actually proposed in the last several years that the public transit system be compelled to install an additional bathroom in each of its stations for the “transgendered” — at the cost of $8,000 per station.
And this during a time of severe budgetary constraints, thanks in great part to the boondoggle known as the Big Dig. I’m sure this makes me a “heterosexist oppressor” or some such, but I think that’s one of the more idiotic proposals I’ve yet seen in this state with no shortage of idiocies (or idiots).
By the way, Amp, how nice to see that “road map” cartoon on your home page. So sorry that Israel isn’t following your advice to get on the road and drive over the cliff to its certain death by accommodating the Paleo-stinians’ every homicidal whim.
Seems cool. I never Gender ID’d because I never really thought about it. I’m pretty simple
Core identity :androgynous boy
Biological sex :FeMale
Sexual/romantic attractions :High/aggressive Femmes,artsy Andro bois, punkish soft butches
Sexual/romantic attractiveness :Straight shy, and quiet guys, femmes, butches, bois…whoever likes me, I never know until they grab me and say “HEY IDIOT I LIKE YOU!”..And then..*shrug*
Gender expression :I look like a walking Slim Shady, curse a lot, protect my loved ones at any cost or consequence, and treat my lady like the queen she is.
Social perception :”Is that a boy or a girl?”..”What do you want me to be?”
Where can I find out when this was posted?
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Seems like fun :)
* Core identity : Half boy, Half girl.
* Biological sex : Female.
* Sexual/romantic attractions : Butch women, FTM’s, Nerds.
* Sexual/romantic attractiveness : People i wouldn’t expect. ALL different types.
* Gender expression : Usually mistaken for a boy, Acts like a gay guy.
* Social perception : Fruity boygirl, just plain QUEER :)