I was curious about this book until I saw this little gem by the author on Jewcy:
Whatever we say about women and men being equal now and tomorrow – I have three daughters who I want to see beat the world – throughout the whole human past, including the Jewish past, men and women have had different rules, different roles, different thoughts, and different lives.
Biology and common sense both tell us sex is something women have and men want. We can try as hard as we want to talk our way around this, but we can’t make it any less true–for the Jews or any other people.
But I’m sure your book is very smart. Jewish men? You guys have got a long way to go. (That goes for all you Gentile fellas, too.)
PS – So, when I feel aroused, is that really just the need to unload myself of all that pesky sex? Or maybe Judith Butler has just brainwashed me into imagining that I enjoy it.
Dang, think of the poor lesbians – so much sex and nowhere to put it.
UPDATE: The author has responded to a comment I left on the Jewcy post, defending what he wrote as “an exaggeration, but a useful one.”
(Cross-posted at Modern Mitzvot.)
I’m grateful — really. I already have too many things to read so I have to be grateful when authors let me know that I don’t need to consider reading their books.
The idea that men take, women give always seemed to me to be at the core of all gender relations in patriarchal religions, which was why I stopped practicing Judaism and didn’t consider any other religion long before I stopped believing in any gods.
I realize it’s an unpopular viewpoint, but I have to say that feminism is a little bit in denial about this issue. The world would be a better place if both genders had the same sex-drive, but I don’t really believe that’s the case.
As long as men want sex more than women (which is not to say that women don’t want sex at all) then there’s going to be a supply-and-demand issue that creates a power imbalance in all things sexual, from which spawns a whole host of issues.
And no, I’m too lazy to go look for any statistics or studies to back up my bold-faced assertions.
Now, to say that sex is something women give and men take is total hyperbole that denies the existence of the female libido whatsoever – that’s ridiculous. But I think there is a kernel of truth that creates that extremist viewpoint.
So all the women in relationships in which they have a higher sex drive than their male partners are just … what?
And speaking more broadly, I don’t think have/want is about sex drive disparities. I think this have/want business is about a really twisted way of viewing women’s sexuality as something to possess or control. It’s not about who wants to have sex more often.
Then what’s the point of making those assertions? To start an opinion based argument? No thanks.
SiF, the kernel of truth is that women have to be much more concerned with whom they have sex, when they have sex, and how they have sex because both biologically and culturally there can be a significant price to pay for failing to do so. But that doesn’t mean that women have an innately lower sex drive or want sex less than men. As an analogy, my husband loves chocolate intensely but eating chocolate with a mix of certain factors can cause him to have severe migraines. So his chocolate eating is always tempered by keeping those factors in mind. That means that sometimes no matter how much he wants the chocolate, he doesn’t have it but it never means that he doesn’t want the chocolate just as much as the next chocolate lover.
In Jewish law, husbands owe sex to their wives and may not force sex on them, which doesn’t fit well into the model of sex as something women have and men want.
A sidetrack, but I’ve never heard anything about how husbands owing sex to their wives works out in practice.
Then forgive me if I decline to take you seriously.
Man this is awesome. I didn’t know that it could work that way! Here, let me try:
As I said, awesome.
—Myca
“As long as men want sex more than women (which is not to say that women don’t want sex at all) then there’s going to be a supply-and-demand issue that creates a power imbalance in all things sexual, from which spawns a whole host of issues.”
IMO the power imbalance comes from thinking of sex as an item that can be demanded and supplied, as opposed to a mutually beneficial act. If we’re constantly putting women into the position of gatekeeper or supplier, and telling them they should think of sex as a service or a gift, of course they’re going to perceive it as a job or a chore, enjoy it less, and not be inclined to do it if they don’t perceive that they’re getting something in return. And since that way of thinking also puts men into the mindset that their partner’s enjoyment is secondary to their own (not always), women are less likely to have a completely enjoyable experience.
I suppose a google search to back up my assertion is in order.
http://74.125.95.132/search?q=cache:ulQsuijmLbUJ:www.csom.umn.edu/Assets/71520.pdf+sex+drive+genders&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=1&gl=ca&client=firefox-a
Concluding remarks:
Concluding Remarks
All the evidence we have reviewed points toward the
conclusion that men desire sex more than women. Al-
though some of the findings were more methodologi-
cally rigorous than others, the unanimous convergence
across all measures and findings increases confidence.
We did not find a single study, on any of nearly a dozen
different measures, that found women had a stronger
sex drive than men. We think that the combined quan-
tity, quality, diversity, and convergence of the evidence
render the conclusion indisputable.
Turning to the causes of gender differences in sex
drive, it would be premature to declare that a substantial
part of the gender difference in sex drive is biologically
innate, but we think the evidence is pointing in that di-
rection (not least because of the apparent consistency of
the difference). Biological processes, including the sub-
stantial gender difference in testosterone, have been im-
plicated as determining sex drive. Although most
findings pertain to modern America, a smattering of
findings from other cultures continues to depict the male
sex drive as stronger. Cultural influences have sought to
stifle some aspects of female sexuality, but we found the
difference in sex drive even in sexual spheres (such as
marital sex) where culture has supported and encour-
aged female sexual desire, so stifling should not be rele
vant. Personally we would like to believe that culture
and socialization could be modified so as to make the fe-
male sex drive precisely the same as the male sex drive
(because that would seemingly foster more harmonious
relationships), but our review of the literature does not
offer much encouragement to that view. Certainly any-
one seeking to advocate that view of total cultural rela-
tivity faces a substantial burden of proof.
I did come back here to back up my horsecrap, but I think a filter ate it. Either way, short short version: googling “sex drive genders” produces plenty of studies and meta-studies. Also, testosterone is now being used as a treatment for low libido in women, and it works.
To make that clear: testosterone gives women libidos. Considering the other ways testosterone affects the body, is it really that much of a stretch to admit that men are not only on average larger and stronger, but also hornier?
Only if you can back up that women with PCOS have higher sex drives than women without.
Also, the study’s summary does not appear to suggest cross-cultural investigation, which is always an error, and its analysis of female desire in, say, the context of marital sex, is … well, not rigorous. There’s nothing there pointing to biology rather than culture.
Given that it’s a conviction in many regions, and has been a conviction historically, that women have a much higher sex drive than men –I see no particular reason to favor old wives’ tales about lack of sex drive over old wives’ tales about insatiability.
Although, frankly, who cares? If there are innate differences in drive between the sexes, in either direction, then there are. The nice thing about a sex drive is there are lots of ways of satiating it.
Google reveals this blob of abstract text that appears to have been harvested from a journal of some kind or other:
edit: the reason an innate difference in sexual desire between the genders is important is because it _creates_ the culture. Exploitation becomes inevitable, because one group has what the other group wants, instead of reciprocal desire. If men had the female sex-drive, would there still be prostitutes?
I’m not sure what convinces you that the culture we have now is created by innate biological differences, when for most of European history, most people believed that it was women who had insatiable sexual appetites. If all of this is based off of innate biological differences that are basically unchanging, why has our common stereotype done a 180?
It’s also interesting to note that patriarchy perseveres, regardless of who is deemed to have a higher sex drive. When it was women, it was evidence of their base and animalistic nature. Now that it’s men with the higher sex drive, it’s poor men, forced to such extremes in behavior just to get a little nooky. If only women weren’t so selfish and would give it up a little more …
As for those concluding remarks …
Gee, I wish I could think of some culturally determined factors in the way that men and women relate within marriage that might have a negative impact on women’s sex drive. No, there couldn’t possibly be anything there because men and women have reached total equality in their relationships.
Yes, wouldn’t it be great if women were always ready and horny and available exactly when men wanted them to be, but never at any other time? That would, indeed, be a utopia. Alas, ’tis not to be.
Sorry. Try again.
“If only women weren’t so selfish and would give it up a little more … ”
I think you jumped something there. Since when is stating that people have different urges assigning blame? Wouldn’t it be the opposite, that a woman with low libido wouldn’t feel so guilty if her problem was (somewhat) natural? A person shouldn’t be coerced into having sex they aren’t into, that’s the whole point.
And as for the European historical angle, I’d love to see a reference for that. I mean, I would think that any sexual stereotypes surrounding women were from the overall stereotype of emotional weakness (including of restraint) and the whole “original sin” thing that painted women as temptresses, not that women had some sexual drive that men didn’t.
Here you go, SiF:
http://www.brown.edu/Departments/Italian_Studies/dweb/society/sex/sexual-desire.shtml
But in what position does it put the woman with a higher libido? If men are supposed to want sex all the time with anything that moves, and a man doesn’t want to have sex with you, what’s wrong with you?
Can you see where I’m going with this? Having these kind of generalized ideas about “how men are” or “how women are” really isn’t helpful.
I think it would be a lot better if people understood themselves as “this is the way I am” and go from there, rather than “this is the way I am because I am a woman” or “… because I am a man.”
Different people are different. Just about every reputable study I’ve seen of differences between men and women find that yes, there are difference between men and women, but the differences among men and the differences among women are greater than the differences between men and women. So even having a study that finds that “on average” men are “more likely to…” and so on, doesn’t actually offer much insight into relationships and individuals in them, and might actually be harmful.
You ask why I jump from “stating a difference” to “assigning blame.” You are saying that this difference is responsible for exploitation of women and the power imbalance between men and women. Talk about assigning blame! Even if we identify a difference “on average,” how do you go from there to saying this is why things are the way they are? If the difference between the sex drives of men and women is responsible for the way things are and the differences between their sex drives is innate, then it’s entirely hopeless. I don’t really understand that way of thinking.
ETA: Thanks, Jake.
Well, you learn something new every day.
Why is it that it must be the female partner who has the ‘problem’? Even if it were the case that men have a biological predisposition to higher libidos, why is it that they are not treated as the ‘abnormal’ ones, what with their freakishly high sex drives and all?
Aaaand once again there are no lesbians. No gay men. No bisexual people of any gender.
Holy crap, how are some people getting Internet access from 1952?
Well, this is an article and not a study, but it does quote empirical data. I don’t think the alleged difference in sex drives between men and women is necessarily biological, but even if it’s mostly cultural, it shouldn’t stop us from being able to say that men in our culture have more sex drive than women*, which many studies verify. In this respect, I agree with SiF, and I do think most feminists have difficulty saying this, even with the disclaimer added.
Now, having said that, I strongly suspect that the cultural factor is the bigger factor of the two, insofar as we designate “biological” and “cultural” as the two discrete categories as are used commonly. From what I remember, the idea of women as more carnal is actually the more common one in pre-industrial, pre-feminist societies. There is a popular false duality that associates “cultural factors” with the mental/intangible and the sex drive with the physical/tangible, such that all that conditioning and social influence in the world supposedly won’t affect how the pipes work down there. In reality, sex drive and sexual arousal are controlled by the brain, and it is all very interconnected. I think sex is about,
(1) physical and emotional intimacy (intertwined; the two aren’t separate in this case)
(2) one’s place in a social context; how often you have sex, if you have sex, who you get to have sex with, etc. are and always have been both prime determiners and determinants of your place in the social pecking order. It is like this for all social mammals.
(Think of why so many kids today, particularly boys but increasingly also girls, feel pressured to have sex when they’re not emotionally ready. I’m highly skeptical that it’s either mostly about intimacy or the need to get their rocks off, though of course there may be numerous individual exceptions. Think also why some people feel no attraction to others of a different race. I don’t think they’re lying, but I don’t think it’s biological either, if by “biological” we’re excluding the ingrained tribal impulse. From an evolutionary perspective, the more genetic mixing, the better, after all.)
(3) physical release/pleasure
(4) the reproductive impulse (which isn’t as strong in humans, who are firstly social mammals for whom sex is more social than reproductive, and secondly possess a conception/copulation ratio that is low even compared to other social mammals. Or so I remember.)
… in that order. If sex was primarily just about physical release, people would have no reason to prefer it to masturbation.
Because (2) comes before (3), there’s no tradeoff between saying that women are pressured to not like sex as much, and saying that women don’t like sex as much. In pretty every case the latter is true in our society, I’d say that the former *caused* it – literally, I’d suspect that brain chemistry would have been physically altered by social pressure and expectations – so that both are true. Asking how human beings “really” are outside of social context is a stupid question; humans evolved as a social species, and never naturally lived outside of a societal framework.
Also, about the effects of testosterone in women – have there been any studies on the effects of progesterone in men? I don’t know of any, but I wouldn’t be surprised if they were similar.
Well, for one, it might not mesh with the lived experience of many people. This odd concern that “feminists” won’t admit that women have less sex drive than men, for whatever reason, when I’m a feminist and the phenomenon you are describing doesn’t fit for many of my relationships and the relationships of half the women I know well enough to talk about this kind of stuff, strikes me rather like badgering a female lawyer to just admit that women are less rational than men or a female engineer to just admit that men are better at math.
For two, I think many feminists are rightly very suspicious of the purposes to which this supposed “knowledge” gets put. Even as he (?) rushes to say that of course no one should do anything they don’t want to do, we have SiF describing low libido among women as a “problem,” but thankfully a “normal” problem for a woman to have. If there really is no larger significance to this difference, if we’re really going to make all the necessary allowances for individual variation within the statistical norm, why is it so important for “feminists” to get on the band wagon and agree that this difference exists? If feminists would just admit that there is this difference between men and women, then … what? People will stop resisting feminism and all of a sudden we’ll make great strides toward equality? Everyone will want to identify as a feminist? Or more likely, everyone will feel a little more complacent about the status quo.
I don’t know about sex drives in general, but I have rather high levels of progesterone for a girl, which have caused some hormone-linked issues (cramping, acne, heavier/nastier periods, mood swings). I’m now on a version of the Pill meant to lower progesterone and boost estrogen levels, and my ob/gyn warned me that increased estrogen is correlated with high blood pressure/stroke, easier weight gain, and reduced sex drive. I’m not sure how true that is of everyone who artificially raises their estrogen levels, though I know I’ve gotten slightly curvier/wider hips and had no perceptible shift in libido.
Er, why are people raising individual datapoints to discuss a claim regarding averages? They’re not the same thing: if men have (on average) higher sex drives than women, there will still be some men who have lower sex drives than their partners, and there will still be some women with very high sex drives. The reverse is also true.
Similarly, whether a fact is convenient or inconvenient from a political or personal standpoint has absolutely no bearing on whether or not is is true.
All I meant about low libido being a “problem” is perception of the person involved. If a person has low libido and does not like having low libido, there is a problem. If they don’t mind low libido, but are concerned as to how it could be an indicator of health concerns, there is a problem.
If they have low libido and don’t mind that they have no libido, no problem.
Look at the context. Obviously I wasn’t trying to say that low libido was a horrible condition when discussing how it is something that could be considered “normal”. I just phrased it badly.
Wow. As a woman with a high sex drive, I also hate the assumption that it is absolutely hard-wired that “men want sex more than women”…I’d say some PEOPLE want sex more than other PEOPLE, but that high sex drive is valued in men and shamed in women, so no wonder that dichotomy comes through in studies and surveys. Double standards and slut shaming has a lot to do with our social programming about sex and gender.
In general, this idea that “women have it/give it up and men want it/get some” is a social construct, not necessarily a biological imperative, as many primate and mammal species demonstrate that females can be the dominants and /or control mating and reproduction. For every “natural” example “proving” how it works, you can find another counterexample showing the opposite. A better suggestion would be to replace the commodity model of sex with a better more workable model, as suggested by Thomas Macaulay Miller in his essay “Towards A Performance Model of Sex”, in the collection Yes Means Yes.
Full text here: http://books.google.com/books?id=NyicMIxzkUwC&pg=PA29&lpg=PA29&dq=towards+a+performance+model+of+sex&source=bl&ots=or_V0WN5yD&sig=krGIzlTpoxWtNsiK1BAPBZT2IHY&hl=en&ei=6hisSaGDDY_ftgeW6J3zDw&sa=X&oi=book_result&resnum=1&ct=result
The whole “women have no libido” myth honestly mystifies me. I can keep up with my boyfriend perfectly well sexually, and pretty much all my female friends like sex just as much as their partners. Its not typically my experience that heterosexual relationships are plagued by a women’s libido issues. I always just thought it was one of those popular perceptions with little root in reality
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