(Actually, next week will be much more violent)..
And of course this "incentive" only applies to poor people: Rich people who already have enough to live off of…
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I might do the same thing as this guy if I also had an infinitely self-replicating dollar. Or maybe it…
[…] Alas, a Blog: Can we disagree and still be friends? […]
@ Jacqueline Squid Onassis @ Dianne I want to THANK YOU LADIES VERY MUCH for taking so much time writing…
@Dianne, No worries. I didn't take that as your intent but it gave me the opportunity to point out why…
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Oooh, intense. I’m dying to know what happens next. (I guess I’ll wait a week.)
I haven’t been reading these long enough to know the general path they take but, honestl, as an Orthdox Jewish mom I always tend to read these things with a bit of trepidation.
So often as an Orthodox Jew I am miscast–I am more towards a Modern Orthodox Jew; and I will admit that in the past that I hvae miscast Hasidim. But, and I am grateful to the internet for this, I have “met” so many people that are not taggable.
Anywauy, those are just my not too coherent thoughts.
I am curious, if you don’t mind my asking, why you chose to do a cartoon on Hasidim, especially very insular ones (as opposed to Lubavitch or similar groups.)
Rachel Ann,
You don’t consider the Lubavitch to be insular? I admit that they proselytize extensively, but that doesn’t make them not insular. Just curious.
Is the content of this post, by the way, an intentional reference to Who’s Afraid of Virginia Woolf?
Just wondering.
Jake…Lubavitch insular? No. But maybe we have different ideas about what insular is; are there some sects of Hasidim which are more insular than others? Yes; but within the group there is a wide variation.
Most of the Orthodox women I know, whether Satmar, Lubavitch, Modern Orthodox or whatever, work or have
had careers/professions. I was sort of the odd ball by being an at home mom. They are involved in the world, learn Torah etc. etc.
There are people who live more insular lives; that isn’t always bad. Some people are happier that way; but I don’t think it the norm among Orthodox Jews.
Rachel Ann,
Maybe we mean different things by insular. IMO, insular means keeping to ones own group. Having little or nothing to do with “outsiders” socially. Possibly having business dealings with “outsiders”, but discouraging (subtly and not so subtly) those outside one’s group from patronizing one’s own businesses. That does not preclude one from working in an “outsider” business if that is what is necessary to earn a living. My experiences with the Lubavitch in NYC certainly reinforced my view of them as insular. But my experiences are my own and it is certainly possible that it does not reflect the wider reality.
I hate that these only come out once a week! I’m on the edge of my seat. Draw faster, Amp! Faster! (j/k. I’m intrigued, though)
[drift]Raznor, is -re the Hungarian prepositional (postpositional, actually) suffix meaning ‘in’?[/drift]
hmmm Jake,
I have the opposite feeling from Lubavitch. Certaintly most of my friends have been fellow Jews (I’m not Lubavitch)but they have been all sorts of Jews; and online I have made friends from around the world. I penpal, that certainly helps.
But it is kind of normal, isn’t it, to have friends who are more similar to one than not? During the years I was homeschooling there were only three other homeschooling families that I became close to; one pagaen, one Jewish and one Christian (kind of funny when you think about it.) the one we were closest to was Jewish, but of course; we could do more together. Eat at each other’s home, shared the same belief system.
Don’t you think most people do this to some extent?
Rachel Ann,
Of course we all tend to have friends from the same cultural and/or socio-economic group. That’s not really what I’m talking about. Let me give you some examples.
While a friend of mine was working as a programmer for the NYFD one of his co-workers was Lubavitch (I’d always heard it referred to as Lubavitcher, but that’s another conversation). His department tended to go to lunch and socialize together outside of work. Except for the Lubavitch gentleman. I was led to believe it was because he didn’t want to, not because he was excluded. He had as little to do with the department as was possible.
I had a friend who was intimidated out of a Lubavitch (I wasnt’ there, it’s possible that it was a different sect) shoe store by the employees & customers.
Once I made it clear that I didn’t want to become a Lubavitch I never heard from the group making the rounds at college again.
These are the sorts of things that I am talking about that make them seem insular to me. Have I communicated what I mean any better?
Jake: I agree with Rachel Ann that the Lubavitch are, relatively speaking, less insular than most Hasidic communities. That’s why most books by non-Hasidim about Hasidic Jews tend to focus on the Lubavitch; Lubavitch families are more willing to be interviewed and to open up their homes to reporters.
Raznor: Yes, the reference is intentional. I love that play (and the excellent movie adaption, as well).
Jake,
The non-socializing could be a problem with keeping Kosher couldn’t it? Also, the gentlemen may have chosen to daven or learn during that time. that is a common thing to do. It is less about not wanting to socialize than it is about wanting to involve oneself in prayer (and he would be obligated to pray 3x a day. Lunch would be a sensible time to pray the afternoon prayers for a good part of the year) and to learn Torah.
Amp. unless i missed it can you tell me why you chose to make a cartoon of Ultra-Orthodox? I really do want to know, and I would like to know if you used “real” people as a jumping board.
Rachel Ann: Your trepidation is totally understandable. Please stick around a bit before deciding one way or the other regarding Hereville; I think (I hope) you’ll be pleased by some of what I do in the next five or ten pages.
It’s certainly not my intention to dis Hasidic life (or Orthodox Jewish life), although neither do I want to put it on a pedistal.
I don’t mind you asking at all; unfortunately, I don’t fully know the answers myself.
I’ve been very interested in Hasidic life ever since I read Holy Days years ago. I’m not sure why it interested me; partly because I’m Jewish, of course, and I’m naturally interested in Jewish things. Partly because I thought the sense of community was attractive. But mainly, it interested me because it interested me. Who really knows where their interests come from?
Similarly, I’ve always been interested in insular communities. My friends who have participated in role-playing games that I’ve run have probably noticed this; I often create very insular cultures, or do stories set in isolated boarding schools or tiny towns or whatnot. I love TV shows about insular towns, like Northern Exposure and Gilmore Girls.
Part of the attraction, from a creative point of view, is the ability to develop supporting characters over time. Very few characters are “just passing through”; all the characters hang around the town and can be thus be brought up again and again, without having to use elaborate plot contrivances. For instance, if Hereville continues for several years (as I hope it will), then all three of the new characters introduced on page 6 (strictly speaking, they appeared on page 5 as well) will appear again and get some deveopment, so we’ll get to see different sides of them than what’s shown on this page.
I also wanted to do a completely fictional group of Hasidim, who are set apart from the mainstream of Hasidic life, because I know that in my ignorance I’m going to make mistakes and get things wrong. Since mistakes are inevitable, I’d rather be making mistakes about a clearly made-up group than about a real-life group.
Finally, although this hasn’t come up in the comic yet, Mirka does have a paying job; she’s a published writer. Many of the other Aherville mothers have jobs, as well, unless their children are very small. However, the mothers are more likely than the fathers to work part-time and to work from home, just like mothers everywhere in the US. (Frankly, being a mother to a Hasidic family is by itself more work than most wage jobs!)
(By the way, Hereville was one of two comics projects I was developing. The other one, which is now on the back burner, perhaps forever, would have been about an insular reform Jewish summer camp in Maine. So even if I hadn’t done Hereville, I would still be writing about insularity and Judaism!)
Anyway, I’m not sure if all that has answered your questions; as I said, I’m not entirely certain of the answers myself. I hope you’ll keep reading, though.
Rachel Ann,
I don’t want to argue with you and I’m not looking for excuses for insular behaviour. There is nothing wrong with being part of an insular community in and of itself. Nevertheless, if someone simply does not socialize with others outside of their group they are being insular. The reasons for not socializing don’t matter in determining whether a group is insular or not. I have no problem with religious (or cultural, etc.) groups being insular. Some of my best friends are insular;)
I’m far more interested in hearing your definition of insular and, perhaps if I ask because I’m not clear on the matter, why you don’t think that the Lubavitch are insular. Because my experiences could be an exception to the norm.
Amp. unless i missed it can you tell me why you chose to make a cartoon of Ultra-Orthodox?
Sorry for the delay; I answered your question last because I knew it would take me a lot more time to write than answering Raznor’s or Jake’s.
I guess I don’t consider them insular because I don’t see them as isolating themselves from others in tiny little communities; only working among themselves, having nothing to do with anyone else.
It seems to me that they are pretty out there in the world.
(btw, I knew you weren’t trying to argue with me, I hope you know I wasn’t trying to argue with you).
But I think if you are looking at this one bit of behaviour then you are getting a skewed view; perhaps he (this gentlemen you spoke of) didn’t want to associate with others; on the other hand, perhaps the others didn’t understand his needs, and he wasn’t able to make them clear; for instance. I would love to eat lunch with you, but I keep kosher; there is a Kosher resturant down there.
I am not trying to make excuses; I’m trying to give you a different perspective; what you see as insular may have been due to religious needs, and not a desire to avoid a relationship. For example, if a woman had refused to socialize during that time because she used that hour to pump her milk and catch up on grocery shopping, would you see her as insular?
Jake wrote: I hate that these only come out once a week! I’m on the edge of my seat. Draw faster, Amp! Faster! (j/k. I’m intrigued, though)
Thanks! I’m still contemplating the idea of moving to two updates a week… it’s scarey though. We’ll see.
Ah. I see. We have different definitions of insular. The difference being that by my definition a person or group can be insular without physically moving their home away from cities, towns or villages that contain “outsiders”.
To answer your question, yes I would consider her insular if she did that every single day (thus cutting off social contact with outsiders). It would add to my impression if she also never socialized after work. And if she never had non-business conversations with co-workers.
But how about the discouragement from shopping in their shoe-store (hostile glares, ignoring & then following out of the store until she left the neighborhood)? Or the guys who never spoke to me again after it became obvious that I wasn’t going to join their sect?
I believe that there is a difference between shyness or reticence and insularity (I think that’s the word I want to use). I have dealt with people of both types. Part of it is, admittedly, a judgement call on my part. One of the big differences is that often, though not always, you can get a shy or reticent person to participate in social activities but you can’t do that with somebody who is insular.
I dunno. That’s just my feelings on it. It’s very possible that my experiences with the Lubavitch have left me with an impression that is far from the truth. But, really, I think that we just have different definitions for “insular”.
Thanks
Thanks Ampersand,
You have answered my questions. Very interesting. I will keep reading…We do differ politically, but I think you could have figured that out. I’ve made no secret of the fact that I’m a settler here in Israel. BUt then my sil differ in that way too, and I love her a lot. She and I are similar in many other ways in our belifs.
Jake, I am a very shy person in person. What a twittiy sentence! I can express myself better and with more freedom through writing, but in person, I probably wouldn’t participate too much in social things, and when I did, I back away. Part of it may be due to the fact that I have some hearing loss, very mild, and I think a language processing disorder; so often people will say things to me and I’ve no idea what they have just said—either some of the words are missing or I hear the words but it takes me a minute or two longer to figure out what was said than normal. And now I’m tring to learn Hebew? FORGET ABOUT IT!
I don’t know why the Lubavitch group you spoke about wasn’t more accepting of you; usually they are pretty open.
BTW, you all can come and visit me on my site, pretty please with sugar on top, I’ll send you some virutal chicken soup if you’d like.
Ugh, Holy Days. I hated that book.
(Sorry, Amp: this may be a case of “If you can’t say something nice, don’t say anything at all,” but somehow I felt the need to comment. Also, it’s not like you write it yourself, or anything.)
That’s fine, ADS. If you don’t mind my asking, though, WHY did you hate it?
* * *
I’ve got to run, Rachel, but I’ll visit your site later. Meanwhile, I’ve added it to the blogroll, under the “Alas comment writers” section.
Hah! I’ve been reading a GraphicSmash strip, Digger (Ursula Vernon), and we’ve already had two violent encounters, and are in the middle of a THIRD! Though, I’ve been reading it for about a year, twice weekly, for a total of about 100 strips. Maybe you’ll close the violence gap in time.
I missed the first… two or three? strips of Hereville. It’s looking good, though.
Sorry, Amp: I missed your reply.
I hated it because the author very clearly felt like she was watching some sort of aboriginal tribe going through its strange and primitive rituals. The way she described the “quaint” custom of “Shalach Manot:” every Jew I know does that. It’s not as limited as she seems to believe. Much of what she descriibed as being unique or strange about the Lubavitcher community was just plain old ordinary Judaism, and I was frustratd that she knew so little about her subject as to not know the difference. Her lack of knowledge meant that the book ended up being a mix of historical facts about Hasidism and her own personal prejudices coloring her descriptions of the peopel she’s interacting with, with no real substance at all.
Anyway, that was all. I grew up as a conservative Jew in Brooklyn, not far from Crown Heights (on the Haitian side of the neighborhood, actually) and so my experiences may be different from others who live in other parts of the country, or who are less involved in “traditional” Jewish life than I am.
I am reminded of a sociological study I read in college (Social Anthropology class) about Jewish business owners in Brooklyn. The article focused sympathetically on the hard life of the businessmen, and how they were all struggling to get by.
How was this data collected? The business owners were interviewed.
I immediately began laughing out loud as I imagined the interviews, and recognized the NO mainstream Jewish businessman in Brooklyn would EVER say business was good, even if he was raking in millions a year.
It would invite the Evil Eye.
The sociological study was essentially predicting that soon there would be no Jewish businesses in New York, since theey were all on the verge of bankruptcy.
It was probably the most valuable thing I read in the class, because after that I couldn’t take any of the other studies I read seriously either.