Okay here’s the “sequel” to my other Rape Culture post. For a lead-in I bring you the very brutally honest and true comment by Q Grrl from the ‘Amanda presents some real Anti-Rape Advice’ thread.
Q Grrl Writes:
June 28th, 2005 at 11:35 amYou know, I honestly tried to come into this thread on rape with an open mind, hoping that, well, we wouldn’t get the same tired bullshit about prevention, the false equivalency between men in high crime districts and the rape of women, and the otherwise general unwillingness to address rape as rape. But I can’t do it. At least not the open mind part.
Having said that, I fully believe that the ONLY way a woman can control/plan for/avoid/restrict rape is to NOT BE BORN A WOMAN.
Enough said about that. Now my mind is no longer open and you all can deal with my anger at your (general) unwillingness to address rape per se and to make excuses for the men that rape.
Virginia writes:
“Actually, as a health psychology student, I can appreciate your analogy to safety-related behaviors such as looking both ways before crossing the street. “?
And not to pick on Virginia, but I’m using her very succinct summary of the posts above hers as a launching pad.
This “analogy”? of safety-related behavior assumes that all parties involved wish to avoid the same risks. No two drivers at any given time want to hit each other. The risk is fairly equivalent between both parties. No particular driver wants to hit any particular pedestrian, both believing that the risks outweigh the benefit in any particular situation.
Rape is none of the above. Rape carries benefits; for those of you unwilling to look at those benefits, the are:
Male orgasm
Male access to sex performed on women’s bodies
Male restriction of women’s access to public space; to include parks, neighborhoods, public facilities (banks, grocery stores, schools, court houses, etc.), government facilities.
Male restriction of women’s political voices (just go to dKos if you wonder what I mean)
Male restriction on women in combat
Male restriction on responsibility for other men
etc.Furthermore, the sidetracking of rape discussions into issues of how men are also socially hurt is complete horseshit. You cannot place rape in a vacuum. Rape co-exists with prohibitions on women’s access to birth control and abortion. Rape co-exists with the institution of marriage. Rape co-exists with socially condoned dating norms.
Rape is MOST unlike a man getting high off of recreational drugs and walking around in a high crime district.
In fact, rape has nothing to do with that.
But, by all means, we should be socializing girls and women differently. We should socialize them to fight back, to look men straight in the eye, to go for the balls everytime.
WHAT WE SHOULDN’T BE SOCIALIZING THEM FOR IS THAT IF THEY FAIL TO DO THIS, THEY DESERVE THE OUTCOME OF AN ACTION FREELY CHOSEN BY A MALE PERPETRATOR.
How is it that ya’ll are capapble of missing this distinction?
What year is it anyway? 2005?
Lovely and I agree with this :-) So,…. rape culture, gender, women, victim-blaming, men’s responsibility or lack thereof, dating, prevention, marital rape, “boys will be boys,” why do men rape?, patriarchy’s role, acquaintance rape, stranger rape, excusing rape and sexual assault because “guys just can’t help themselves so put all of the burden of prevention on women,” how and why men benefit from rape, how does pornography play into this, shaming of the female victim, men as potential rapists, men and women’s sex drives, relationships, socialization,etc. Have at it!
One more note, Aegis and the disrespectful and rude troll Nephandus are NOT permitted–hence banned–from commenting on this thread, due to their piss-poor and outright disrespectful behavior towards me and others. Any comments of yours’ on this thread will be automatically deleted and seen as further proof of your refusal to show any respect or consideration of others–especially to the moderator.
Yeeps! Can you fix the typo in my third to last paragraph??
thanks.
One of the things that I’ve done at home, but not committed to memory, is the ways in which I believe the majority of men benefit from rape. I consider benefit to happen any time one set of citizens is deprived of certain rights or bodily integrity — that if harm is being done, someone, somewhere, is being benefited. The areas that seem most glaring to me involve access to public space and facilities — access that women are restricted to because of socialized norms of either acceptable behavior or through fear of rape and the “need to protect oneself” that often leads to women not inhabiting the same social space that men inhabit. As I try to mention above, it isn’t that women shouldn’t be desocialized from their passive roles (and we are socialized to be passive), it’s that we have to let women know that it isn’t thier passive roles that lead to rape: the passive roles lead to excuses for rape and therefore you see the seed the preempts socializing girls and women into passivity.
Okay no problem, but could you be more specific–sorry, I can’t read today :-)
You mean a thread without trolls? No more discussoins about how mean it is for women to not give up the vagina when men demand it? NO more long-winded avoidance of the topic so we can placate guys who are either nineteen or ‘feminists’?
Yippee!
You know, the double standared isn’t two sets of parallel standards, like the Army physical—complimentary and similar. It’s war. One side can only rise if the other side falls. One side relfects the other side. That’s how men benefit from rape. With women shoved off the streets, men ahve more freedom. With women made the gatekeepers of men’s actions, men are freed from doing so. Men get freedom; women get obligation. Men benefit; women suffer.
it should read: if they fail to do this.
:) Thanks.
“With women made the gatekeepers of men’s actions, ”
The thing with this is that I don’t believe that many people, male or female, still believe that women are in this role. I’ve been in it myself, personally, recently so I know it is alive and well. But I do think it needs to be addressed, especially when paralled with the ways in which women’s bodies and freedoms are curtailed through force and the threat of force/fear of force.
And discussing rape as rape? Not as something else? No metaphors, no deceptions or excuses?
You don’t believe people believe this? It’s there inherent in every blame-the-victim scenario, every incident where a woman got asked what she was wearing. Men get to do what they want. Women apply the brakes. What else is it?
Great points Q girl & P-A. I think your point on restricted access is right on. I’m a runner and one of the things I enjoy is running at night when it is too hot during the day. I’ve encouraged many women to do the same and about 90% refuse outright for fear of thier safety. The other big one is women who never run alone, even during the day on well-traveled routes. This makes me so angry and sad, though of course, not nearly so as the women actually affected.
I disagree about desocializing women to be passive. I agree it is quite hurtful to say something after a woman has been raped, but I think in general we should encourage women, especially girls, to be as active and dynamic as men are encourage to be.
Rivka’s post on this thread is also pretty cool. I’ve been backing and forting in the comments over there
One thing stands out. I know people are trying to be kind, and really honestly think they’re respectful to women, but using a phrase like “dressed to provocitavley” is blaming the victim.
So is jumping all over what the women should have done to prevent the rape.
What gets me is that this derails discussion of what really mgiht work in rape prevention long term, which is some way to eliminate the attitudes that help create rape.
What also gets me is that I’m a strong proponent of programs like IMPACT which teach self desense skills.
I’m trying to align my promoting those programs with my refusal to blame the victim. I think what I try not to do the most is talk about what a woman ought to have done to avoid a specific rape, but promote these programs as empoweing for all dangerous situations. Not just rape. And not just for women.
How’s that sound?
I’m really uncomfortable with the whole notion of even discussing what women could do to avoid rape, frankly. It kind of presumes they’re not doing enough already. It also avoids dealing witht he paralysis that you can sometimes get when someone known someone you trusted suddenly tries this with you.
Never seen a program that dealt effectively with that.
Also never saw a program that took men to task for not nailing other guys for this shit.
One thing that would actually be effective that women could do to prevent rape is to…SHOOT TO KILL, ALL MEN, ON SIGHT. Otherwise, I think we’re stuck working on preventing rape from the criminal’s side.
Ginmar: maybe what I meant is that people are unwilling to admit that this is still women’s social role.
I’m all for women protecting themselves and I do it can be done and can be taught without it becoming all about blame the victim. I got in a verbal argument wtih my brother about 10 years ago where he lost his shit and threw something at me. I went to protect myself and wound up breaking a bone in my foot on his inner thigh (missed the testicles). He had the nerve afterwards to act like a big brother/protectionist and advise me to take self-defense lessons. THAT was blaming the victim. What he didn’t know is that I’d played rugby for many years and learned exactly how much pain I can sustain before I completely give up. Had he been a stranger, a broken foot would not have stopped me. THAT is learning how to protect oneself as a woman (according to Q Grrl’s low-income street rules).
I think rape is a little more complicated in that it is not always as straight forward as overt violence and it is *completely* tied up in how we socialize girls and young women into their sexuality. Well, and how we socialize boys and young men into their sexuality.
then again, I completely agree with Ginmar.
Is rape all that big a problem in the world you-all live in?
I’ve been around the block a bit, and one of my many friends was raped once, long ago. Mostly it doesn’t happen. And didn’t happen, when we were all a lot younger. It was quite rare, actually.
Now, I don’t think for one nanosecond that either men or women have changed in the last 40 years. So, what gives here?
(Please for the love of God spare me the “you-all were RAPED RAPED and you didn’t even know it!!!” line of argument.)
The only completely effective thing that women can do to stop rape is to stop breathing (and even then you’ve got necrophiliacs to contend with).
I don’t think we can saying it often enough — the only way to prevent rape is for men to stop doing it. Of course, we’re never going to get rid of all rape but we could reduce it by forcing people (men and women both) to confront the kinds of attitudes that lead to rape, like —
. fucking is what men do to women
. women trade sex to get a man
. boys will be boys
. you can’t blame a guy for trying
. women dont really mean no when they say it
. and stolen from ginmar’s blog: men need to protect women (which really means that men want to control women)
Girls. (that means, not boys, OK, so don’t jump all over me)
Is this all that common? Rape, I mean? It hardly ever happened 40 years ago.
I want to live in Susan’s gated community.
Susan: at least half of the women I know have been sexually assaulted in some way. This is in suburban Dallas. It is, unfortunately, quite common. People didn’t talk about is as much forty years ago.
Furthermore, the sidetracking of rape discussions into issues of how men are also socially hurt is complete horseshit.
You wanna know what socially hurts men? Rape. Not in this dismissive “oh, it happens to men too” sense that the apologists use, but in the sense that men’s lives are noticeably worse because of rape and rape culture.
We’re hurt by a rape culture where women are expected to be eternally vigilant in their interactions with us. So why aren’t we (and by “we,” I mean “men”) being more vigilant about it ourselves?
We’re hurt by a rape culture that declares women the gatekeepers of sex while simultaneously discouraging them from being sexual agents. So why aren’t we encouraging the idea of mutuality and an “enthusiastic participation” standard?
We’re hurt by the folks who promote irresponsibility under the adage “boys will be boys.” So why don’t we change what “being a boy” is into something constructive?
We’re hurt by a culture that tells us we should be entitled to any woman we like, and insulted if she doesn’t like us back. So why don’t we start teaching that attraction is not something owed to anyone, and that unrequited attraction isn’t blameworthy?
We need to stop whining about how we’ve done our share by not personally raping anyone, and anything else is women’s fault for what they wear or what they don’t wear, for going home alone or with a stranger or with someone she knows or with a group, for not fighting back or not giving in, for not saying “no” or not saying it loudly enough or not meaning it. Because this culture we’re in? It’s broken.
Susan: what would you like to talk about instead?
Maybe we can talk about the Congo? I’m particularly fond of the number 40,000. Especially when 40,000 happens over a 4 year spread. 10,000/year. Yet our troops are in Iraq.
Wait, I’m getting ahead of myself.
Susan: Do you believe that girls and young women are socialized to fear rape? If not, please explain.
Susan, I don’t know what the fuck your problem is, but this time around I won’t put up with obnoxious trolls who derail the entire thread (like Aegis and Nephandus) to avoid discussing the topic, its points, or dismiss it all together. Do you have anything intelligent to say, a coherent argument maybe, or are you just going to be rude, and get banned? If you get banned, it’s because of your behavior–not your disagreeing opinion(s). Disagreement and differing view-points are perfectly okay, but all I see from you is immature trollish behavior. And age and experiencing things do not always grant someone vast wisdom, knowledge, and maturity. Someone can be sixty and experience many things, and yet still be ignorant and immature.
ha ha, Q Grrl.
Anything but.
As a young woman I hitchhiked all over this country and Europe, alone, or with one male companion. Dated all sorts, went to frat parties, you name it I did it. (And a bunch of stuff you probably couldn’t think of even.) Then I married early and became a hippie in the Haight. Low dresses, long dresses, lack of stated restraints. Danced naked in the park, yadda yadda.
I’ve been all over, mostly alone. Guys have hit on me plenty, but no one ever threatened, let alone achieved, rape. I can say the same of my girl friends, all of whom lived as I lived, and one of whom only was raped. (A guy jumped out of the bushes in Central Park.) I was known as a pretty hot babe in my day, and shy I wasn’t. But no one ever threatened me. It wasn’t done, if you know what I mean.
The guy in Central Park, OK. Random criminal act. But men you knew? ya gotta be kidding. No one, male or female, would ever have spoken to the creep again. Quick route to being a total outcast. And on the girl’s word alone.
No one did it. Or almost no one. Unthinkable.
“It wasn’t done, if you know what I mean. ”
Yeah, right. Tell that to the girls who knew the Kennedy’s.
“It hardly ever happened 40 years ago.”
Where’s your proof? Any stats with links? Or is this just another one of your opinions since you have presented no factual evidence to substantiate it? And maybe rape “hardly ever happened 40 years ago” because people dismissed women’s accusations of rape and sexual assault as “she was a whore,” “she’s being hysterical,” “she was askin’ for it,” “prostitutes can’t be raped,” “she was married to him–she consented to all sex with him when she married him,” etc., so the rapes were never proven or even reported. Yet amazingly, we still deal with this shit today.
Susan: at least half of the women I know have been sexually assaulted in some way. This is in suburban Dallas. It is, unfortunately, quite common. People didn’t talk about is as much forty years ago.
Wow. No kidding. This surprises me.
Forty years ago we talked our head off to each other at least, don’t kid yourselves. But this wasn’t true then.
I suppose, to answer your other question, that women are socialized to fear rape, but this wasn’t a big issue in my generation since it happened so rarely. We’re all socialized to fear theft too, which was a lot more common. I think this misunderstanding (the frequency of the threat) may be behind a lot of our collective misunderstandings here.
Susan, I don’t know what the fuck your problem is, but this time around I won’t put up with obnoxious trolls who derail the entire thread (like Aegis and Nephandus) to avoid discussing the topic, its points, or dismiss it all together. Do you have anything intelligent to say, a coherent argument maybe, or are you just going to be rude, and get banned? If you get banned, it’s because of your behavior”“not your disagreeing opinion(s). Disagreement and differing view-points are perfectly okay, but all I see from you is immature trollish behavior. And age and experiencing things do not always grant someone vast wisdom, knowledge, and maturity. Someone can be sixty and experience many things, and yet still be ignorant and immature.
Appreciate your courtesy. Hey, I’m just gathering information. So shoot me. I don’t think I’ve said anything rude. If I have, I apologize, and I’d like a citation to the rude remark so I can avoid rudeness in the future.
I’m wondering what’s going on in the heads of you-all, and what kind of world you’re living in. You (if you weren’t so automatically hostile) might be interested in how women in a previous generation handled this problem, and if it wasn’t a problem then, you might be interested in why it wasn’t.
My answer to the last question is wandering towards a feeling that there were a lot of social constraints which operated to restrain such behavior (rape) which seem not to be operating now. Is this interesting to you, Pseudo-Adrienne? Or do you just want someone to scream at?
Susan–just because you’ve never been raped or sexually assaulted, doesn’t mean it didn’t happen back then, or doesn’t happen. And keep trying my patience.
Susan,
No one did it. Or almost no one. Unthinkable.
Oh they did it but you may not have known about it because what was unthinkable was talking about it. And things that we would clearly call sexual assault today would’ve have been called a “bad date” or “being taken advantage of”.
Susan, I am most confused by your turnaround in this issue. On the previous thread you stated very clearly that girls: don’t get very drunk, that’s just stupid (of course, it is a commonsensical advice for everyone, but “you didn’t want to go there”, except I don’t like the “stupid” bit, how is this not blaming the victim?)), and the previous thread was about things to do to avoid rape. Now you are saying it is a nonexistent problem, or almost so. A non-issue, one might say. Care to explain?
Well, if we’re talking about outright forcible stranger rape, I suppose there are stats somewhere, and I doubt they’ve changed much. There are a certain number of nuts in every generation.
But date rape? Men you knew? It was very rare. Not because guys have changed, but I suspect because mores have changed. A man who did that would have been immediately ostracized by all his friends, male and female both.
Does this interest you at all? Or are you just going to scream at me for the fun of it?
Tuomas,
It’s apparently not a non-existent problem now, if 50% of women have been victims. The thing about drink was just a suggestion aimed at what I perceive to be the current culture.
Hey, man, we got drunk a lot. As much as you-all. But it didn’t put you into that kind of danger then.
Susan–all of your comments on this thread have been rude, disrespectful, dismissive, and trollish. You’ve derailed this entire thread with your comments. Your other comments on “Amanda’s rape prevention” thread have been rude. Your behavior has proven that you can be middle-aged and still an obnoxious, ignorant, immature ass. And your *banned*, you’ve derailed this thread enough, you troll. Take your ignorant bullshit someplace else.
But date rape? Men you knew? It was very rare. Not because guys have changed, but I suspect because mores have changed. A man who did that would have been immediately ostracized by all his friends, male and female both.
I don’t what universe you lived in the 60’s but it certainly wasn’t near the one I lived in. Copping a feel was worth bragging rights; “getting into a girl’s pants” made a guy a fucking hero to his friends.
The absolute refusal of most people to hold men accountable for their actions has become a real issue in my life of late. Yesterday I was reading about anti-prostitution posters in Sweden that featured men in business suits with prominent wedding rings in a move to get them to stop traveling overseas to prey on vulnerable women in the Baltic. I had never seen similar materials that didn’t have abused-looking women on them before that.
There were posters in the NYC subway a few years ago with “yearbook photos” of women who have been victims of domestic violence, and I wonder what kind of impact shifting the lens of the camera/eye from woman-as-victim to men-as-victim-makers would have. In the current climate it would probably just enrage men whose favorite line is, “But *I* don’t hit women so suggesting all men are abusers makes you a man-hater.”
Howard Stern makes a lovely young woman in a bikini eat from a dog bowl on the floor and attempts to discuss why this is wrong get barraged with, “It’s her choice and this is a free country.” It’s not the woman’s childhood, history, actions or motivations I question but Howard Stern’s. Asking, “Why does Howard Stern want to treat women this way?” makes men either wax philosphical about the immutably cruel nature of human beings or make hollow platitudes about the curious whim of market forces which shall never, ever be questioned. The source of the sexism is never pinned on Howard Stern or his mostly male listeners who enjoy humiliating women and demand such scenes.
Susan,
Where did you get the 50 %? Oh, and I’m not satisfied at your explanation. The thing is, as you said, if stranger rape has been the same, why would you need to take more precautions aginst stranger rape now as opposed to then? (Like not being drunk around strangers etc.)
But you already said that none of your girlfriends had been date raped, and obviously you don’t know (many) cases from that time, then how would you know? (Btw, guys these days have seemingly very anti-rape sentiments like rapists are sick fucks etc. but if some “lying slut” accuses a frien of rape, then well, “it wasn’t a real rape”…) Would have been ostracized, you say. But were they?
I agree with Jeff. Rape does not benefit men. Women not having access to public places does not make men more free, it makes us less happy.
I have never taken rape lightly, and have sometimes thought that it should be punished as severely as murder. Does anyone have any concrete suggestions for a man about how to prevent rape (beyond just not doing it himself?)
Oh. Susan got banned already. Well, my questions were kind of rhetorical anyway. Hey, a non-derailed rape thread? That would be great…
And I agree with all commentors who said that men need to stop cuddling their rapist, sexist buddies.
Well, if we’re talking about outright forcible stranger rape, I suppose there are stats somewhere, and I doubt they’ve changed much. There are a certain number of nuts in every generation.
But date rape? Men you knew? It was very rare. Not because guys have changed, but I suspect because mores have changed. A man who did that would have been immediately ostracized by all his friends, male and female both.
Wow, rape-myth-tastic!
1) “Forcible stranger rape” is real rape. Anything else is just being victim-y.
2) Most women report rape.
3) Rape is perpetrated by mentally ill men.
4) Once upon a time there were some halcyon days when men respected women. Then feminism came along and invented ‘date rape’, and now we all find ourselves in this huge mess.
Perhaps the UK was simultaneously more liberal and more uptight 40 years ago, because I’ve taken calls from women to my local Rape Crisis line who were raped back then and haven’t told anybody since then. Sadly, I bet someone will be posting the exact same thing on a 2045 blog equivalent.
Piter,
Does anyone have any concrete suggestions for a man about how to prevent rape (beyond just not doing it himself?)
Yes, call guys on the kind of behavior that can lead to date rape when you see it happening. Men who hassle and grope women and get away with it don’t have that far to go before they assume that they are entitled to take whatever they can get.
I wasn’t around 40 years ago, but when I was growing up (in the 80s) and the movie Extremities came out (anyone remember that? Farrah Fawcett is raped by a stranger then turns the tables on him), I remember being part of some public discussion of the movie moderated by a rape counselor. She asked the audience to identify a series of situations as rape or not rape. All of us agreed that the rapist in Extremities was clearly out of bounds, but when the question became “is it rape if a husband/boyfriend forces his wife/already-sexually-involved girlfriend?” almost no hands went up. I remember thinking the woman was really pushing the definition of rape too far and destroying her credibility, which I found frustrating. And I considered myself a feminist at the time (yeeg…). I myself was, in fact, in a relationship where I felt I had very little say about when sex was going to happen and what it was going to consist of, and pretty consistently allowed myself to be misused, on the socialized belief that once I’d consented to anything with a man, I had no right to refuse anything at any time. What a chump.
So anyway, I agree with AndiF – I think 20 and 40 years ago, a lot of what most of us would now consider rape was just seen as business as usual, and the climate of ‘sexual freedom’ in the 60s (and now, come to think of it) had to have kept a lot of women (especially in the counterculture) from feeling comfortable complaining.
MG
To follow on what Samantha said, I would love a TV ad with a bunch of actors, selected for their diverse appearances, dressed in street clothes, and doing everyday things such as working in an office, on a construction site, grocery shopping, etc. As the camera panned in on each one, it would center on a big sign hanging around the man’s neck saying “Rapist” or “I date raped and told my friends, but they thought it was cool” or something like that.
After the collage of rapists, perhaps some summation like “Unfortunately, rapists aren’t usually that easy to identify. If you know someone who has bragged about getting a girl drunk and having his way, or slipping a drug into her drink to make her give it up, or threaten her or hurt her to have sex, even if he knows the girl or is in a relationship with her, he has committed rape. Be a man. Report rapists.
WHAT WE SHOULDN’T BE SOCIALIZING THEM FOR IS THAT IF THEY FAIL TO DO THIS, THEY DESERVE THE OUTCOME OF AN ACTION FREELY CHOSEN BY A MALE PERPETRATOR.
I agree with this. I’m sorry if anything I said was interpreted as saying that it is the girl’s responsibility to prevent rape. I know it is not the victim’s responsibility. My only concern (perhaps unfounded) is that someone will interpret this as a reason not to avoid particularly dangerous situations, or not to advise, e.g., their daughter to avoid particularly dangerous situations.
As a society, though, I agree that we need to blame the people committing the crimes, not the victims.
Well, I noticed on the other rape thread that someone asked about how to identify guys who might be dangerous. Not that the burden should be on us, but still, there’s a very interesting and gut-instinct affirming book called “The Gift Of Fear” by a guy named Gavin De Becker that I read years ago. It didn’t so much teach me what to look out for as it did show why certain guys set off my “get away from this person NOW” alarm. Like, oh, that’s why I always feel unsafe when a guy won’t listen to me saying I don’t need his help – he’s not respecting my “no”. And it really told me that yes, if I had a feeling, an instinct, about a man possibly being dangerous, then I should listen to that and honor that and not get caught in that “oh but I don’t want to hurt his feelings, I’m sure he’s REALLY a nice guy” guilt bullshit that bad guys use to sucker you in. It happens in supposedly safe social situations all the time. The books details really clearly the tricks and games bad guys play on women to get them to isolated places so that they can harm them, and it also talks about handling stalking behavior. I found it both practically useful and very affirming: yes, what you feel is true, yes, you should listen to your feelings, and the most important thing is to take care of yourself, not worrying about hurting some guys ego. I’ve always paid attention to my instincts and I feel sure that that’s saved me from some seriously bad shit over the years. I think one of the worst things about all the denial of the fact of rape is that it makes even those of us who haven’t been raped question our impressions about whether someone is dangerous or not. It keep us constantly see-sawing between a (possibly well-justified) apprehension, and guilt about not trusting men.
Susan – Well, yeah. Many of the people in that audience with me at the Extremities discussion were your age and older. Those people were just as uncomfortable with non-stranger definitions of rape as I was.
Also, a lot of us do (shocker) have friends and family members your age whose experience was quite different from yours. My brother, your age, for example, raped at least two girl “friends” in high school. Both of them were determined by authority figures (the high school principal in one case) to have been “asking for it.” He got off scot-free. The one case was well-publicized; he was considered quite a scamp – the girl, what else? a slut. To this day, he is totally unashamed of what he did and does not consider the way he “lost his virginity” (the gang bang behind the school) to have been rape.
MG
Maybe I should rephrase that:
I agree that we (as societies, as individuals, and in all other ways) should blame the people committing the crimes, not the victims.
My mention of “as society” was meant to point out that while individually, it makes sense to try to reduce one’s risks by avoiding the most risky situations, obviously the larger problem will not be solved this way, and must be solved by reducing the number of people willing to rape.
I suspect that Susan is suffering from a case of rose-tinted hindsight. I’ve made a reasonable study of the issue and I have no reason to believe that the incidence of rape has changed materially; it’s just that now women talk about it. Thank goodness; that’s a first step towards raising awareness and finding solutions – which, as others have noted, are going to have be oriented around changing male behavior, not self-imposed limits on women’s actions.
However, it is absurd to cite “rudeness” as a reason for banning her. P-A, you were ten times as rude as she was. She didn’t say your position was “ignorant bullshit”, or call you an “obnoxious ass” – you said those things to her. Her comments may have been derailing the discussion that you wanted to have, but they weren’t rude. Your statement that she was going to be banned for her rudeness, not for her opinions, seems counterfactual. It was her opinions that were causing the problem.
Not that my support is going to win her any friends. ;)
Oh, for fuck’s sake, Robert, why does PA have to wait till somebody says shit like that? If you get any more disingenuous we’re all going to go into insulin shock, especially after the smiley.
I’m sorry, but trolls who go, “OH BUT RAPE JUST DIDN’T HAPPEN!” are not worth wasting their time on. If you can’t see that, you probably aren’t either.
Thank you, AndiF. That really is helpful, as obvious as it SHOULD have been to me. I don’t think we guys think about this subject enough.
I rather agree with Robert about the banning of Susan. She may have been wearing rose-colored glasses, maybe willfully, maybe not. But as surprising to me that a woman didn’t really believe rape happened that often may be, I don’t think she was rude. I think the response to her was out of line.
She definitely appeared to have the potential to become trollish, but she hadn’t become one yet.
Wow talk about on the wrong track!
1) Not only women get raped. Males have been raped, and by women. Society is just such that almost any male coming forward about it would be laughed off the planet.
2) Rape is not about sex. It is about power… it is about hurting the victim. It is about feeling better about themselves (the rapist) by showing they are ‘superior (in their minds) to their victims. If it was all about sex only pretty young girls would be raped… most rape victims seem to be plain at best.
and
3) (sorry not enough room last time) rape can be prevented without living in a cave. Self defense training, preparedness and most importantly *** being aware of one’s surroundings and always analyzing possible threats *** is essential. I dont mean being paranoid, just alert and attentive… noticing threats when they exist. Being prepared.. cellphone to call 911 always charged and on your person for example (no service needed all will call 911 by law) and so on.
Neal
Neal, what about male responsibility for rape? You know, the actual rapists in the vast majority of cases?
How can men make other men less likely to rape?
^ This time without trolls? (Check the comment on “About Ampersand” thread)
Why would a rapist need such things? (I know what you meant, but let’s try this reversal for a while).
Here we go again…
heaven forbid that we should be allowed to discuss the gendered nature of rape on y’know – a thread entitled Rape Culture and Gender…. what were we thinking?!
directed at Neal Feldman, the ^ thing. Sorry cclough.
I assumed it was for Neal, but thanks for clarifying. :)
And on the subject of prostitution and the related issue of the porn industry regarding the claim all the women are ‘victims’ (why arent the men victims I dunno lol)…
Fact is prohibition on any subject on any level has been a miserable failure.
Most in the porn business at least WANT to be… signed releases and all. For a very prominent couple of examples Jenna Jameson and the past CA Gubernatorial candidate Mary Carey.
Are there those who do it who might rather not? Probably, but the same can be said of almost any job. No one is forcing them in the legal business.
As for prostitution I feel it is semantics. If I go on a date with SureThing Sue and pay $50 for the date but not to her it is legal… if I pay a prostitute $50 it is a crime. Why?
Almost 100% of what is bad about prostitution (pimps addicting girls and guys to drugs, rapes, murders assaults, disease spread and the like are attributable to it BEING ILLEGAL. Nevada seems to do pretty well as does Denmark for two examples.
A very large number of prostitutes do it because they want to, like to or cannot make as much money any other way.
When I moved to San Francisco in 1981 my first room was in a hotel where many hookers lived (not worked, lived)… and I got to be social friends with many. And their position was they were anything but victims. One said “Honey, last night I made $2500. If that makes me a victim then victimize me to hell and back again!”
Victim..yeah right. She made $2500 a night, I was making $25 a night pumping gas.
Who was the ‘victim’?
Some look down on lawyers too, remember.
Just some things to think about.
Neal
Yeah, you’re officially a troll with no interest in the discussion at hand, Neal. Cordially fuck off.
last one for a while I promise!
On Susan’s claim no date rape 40 yrs ago:
Not sure it should be bannable but…
I think what the hand-wringers TODAY define as date rape was VERY common 40 yrs ago… go out, get your date a bit drunk and when she is inebriated go for it.
What was normal date procedures even less than the above is today considered date rape.
How many movies from the 60s and before have the woman saying no repeatedly while the man plows on until she finally says yes?
By today’s loony standards that was date rape.
Nowadays you almost have to get forms signed in triplicate, notarized, publicized, circumcised, 312 other -izeds, lost, found, filed, refiled, misfiled, put up for a community vote in Botswana and submitted for joint approval by the Pope and Charles Manson before you can even freaking HOLD HANDS, much less get even a peck on the cheek.
SHEESH!
Heck, glancing at her chest or his crotch or either’s buns without the above written permission today is considered date rape.
So it depends on the standards you use… today’s standards (everything is date rape) or the standards of 40 yrs ago (only criminal rape on a date was date rape and maybe not even then)… otherwise you are talking past eachother.
True?
Neal
Not even close.
No. Now will you go away?
wow fast responses…
male ressponsibility for rape.
OK… what do you mean by that? That all males, myself included who never raped anyone, should take responsibility for rape?
I would disagree with that.
If you mean do I think that rapists should be made to take responsibility for their criminal action, then yes, I agree they should, just like any other person, male or female, should if they are guilty of a legitimate crime.
Or did you mean something else?
I just dislike when rape is defined solely as woman=victim male=wrongdoer.
Neal
Cut off one head and two more pop up! What’n heck is so threatening about this topic, that some folks will deploy any old argument to derail it, no matter how absurd or irrelevent?
How can PEOPLE (males OR females) be made less inclined to rape … thats a good one.
Not easily solved.
First I would say that society would need to change, radically. BOTH male and female social dynamics would need to be grossly altered. Sexual mores would need wholesale revamping.
Why do rapists rape? Usually, whether factually true or not, it is assumed to be the way to hurt a woman (or man) the most. Usually because this is such a sexually repressed culture (for all our vaunted claims of enlightenment).
Take sex out of the realm of taboo, society wide, and rape loses much of its harmful effect and as such will no longer be as sought as a weapon to use against the mind of the victim.
Last I checked, for example, Denmark has a much lower rape incidence than the US. Not eliminated, true, because they share many of the same harmful societal factors.
Is that something of a start to answering your question?
Punishment usually alone wont do it… rape is high recidivism. Just makes them madder. Just makes them want to ‘get even’ even more.
Neal
Tuomas I do not understand your question… I was not suggesting self defense classes to the rapists.. was suggesting to those who do not wish to be as likely victims.
Was I unclear?
Neal
I couldn’t agree more, Q.
cclough:
Well!
Quite interesting… Susan got booted for being rude, dismissive, etc… and what does your non-responsive response to my post make YOU? And profanity too!
Guess it is true, the first one to resort to profanity is the last one with anything legitimate to say.
Seems to me you just want to hear that which you agree with. How sady closedminded.
And you instantly and viciously attack anyone who disagrees with you. How sadly pathetic.
And you call me a troll? It is to laugh.
Neal
So not true?
In what way?
My I have rarely run into such a group of closedminded martinets! Got your own little clique where you just incestuously (intellectual incest) just all agree with one another and drive off anyone who points out issues you would rather ignore or not deal with because it demonstrates flaws in your positions.
And you then wonder why when you come out of your little bubble of a ‘think tank’ into the real worl you get laughed at.
I am willing to defend my statements and positions on the matter against reasonable, reasoned and logical challenge.
All I have seen so far is “we disagree with you, go away!’ without a shred of anything even approaching thoughtful response.
Why should I be surprised?
Keep being victims and desperately trying to recruit more to your manner of ‘victim think’. Keep banning folks apparently falsely for what you do in actuality. Be well and while you’re at it have a crumpet, you surely need one.
I thought you were actually interested in real discussion, not patting yourselves on the back for chasing off anyone who might actually challenge your claims.
Neal
In the context of the overall discussion, Susan’s bid to suggest rape isn’t really a problem, in and of itself, qualifies as rude and disruptive.
Back to some issues brought up by the trolls in the last thread, I actually had a real world test this past weekend on translating the subtle intents of womenfolk. A roommate had a friend visit who I made out with the last time she was here. This time, I think we both assumed much the same would occur. I tried to make a move, but felt like I wasn’t getting anything in response. That, and that fact that she was a little drunk convinced me to pull back. I learn later that she was disappointed that I wasn’t more “take charge” with her and that she did want something to happen. Fair enough, but I’m not going to bemoan my call. I don’t want to even remotely push myself on a woman, so if I err on the side of caution, that’s clearly the side to err on. While I believe it would be a good thing to encourage more communication in physical romantic situations (and I’ll accept responsibility for not just asking her what she wanted on that count), men really need to be okay with nothing happening. Some men would get so worked up to think they missed a chance to hook up because they misread a woman. You know what? Its no big deal. It happens. Get over it. Don’t go crying about how mysterious and unreadable women are. This stuff happens. Learn to live with it. Having been in that situation, my biggest complaint is that the woman knew that I’m very cautious about making a first move because I did tell her that. Am I torn up because I had the opportunity to “get some” and didn’t? Of course not. And having seen that hypothetical situation that always gets dragged up by rape apologists, I’m all the more of the opinion that its a silly complaint on their part.
Susan,
I’m trying to be nice and respect my elders, but right now you’re being so selfish and so ignorant that I want to smack you. Let me give you a little personal history. I grew up with priviledge up the wazoo. I went to a very exclusive British boarding school, commonly attended by the British aristocracy and the children of third world dictators and mega-businessmen. Hell, we even had memebers of the British royal family. No-one I went to school with ever lived in a poor neighborhood in their life. No-one lived in a high-crime area. And it was a girls only school. If there’s any group of young women who shold have been safe, who were protected and warned what risks not to take, who were trained to be assertive (hockey and lacrosse and fencing, oh my) and sure of their own rights and their ability to control their destiny, it was us.
At least 25% of the girls I know from that school have been raped or sexually assaulted. There are probably more that I don’t know about. This number pretty much matches up with the average.
I’m not sure what planet you live on, but on this one rape is not now and never has been rare. To say that it never happened 40 years ago is bullshit. My mother (born in 1944) spent her entire adult life with a wierd rip in her ear to remind her of the time she was sitting in a car with her boyfriend and he tried to rape her, nearly pulling her earring right out of her lobe in the process. And she was a “good” girl, one who did all the things she was supposed to do.
I can see how your own experiences might give you a false sense of security. I am and always have been a risk-taking kind of woman too, and I too have managed somehow to stay safe. But, the fact that you’ve never been raped, and neither have I, isn’t because we’re special or smarter than everyone else. We’re just damned lucky. And that luck could end tomorrow if we were unlucky enough to cross paths with some asshole who has no respect for women and doesn’t care what we feel or what we want.
Just because reality hasn’t smacked you in the face doesn’t mean it’s not there. I’ve never been a victim of the vicious racism that permeates every aspect of American society either, but that doesn’t mean I’m going to pretend it doesn’t exist. Have some compassion.
That all males, myself included who never raped anyone, should take responsibility for rape?
I would disagree with that.
Why? Responsibility isn’t blame. Responsibility is deciding to help fix the problem rather than deciding “I’m not the one in danger, so to hell with everyone else.”
First I would say that society would need to change, radically. BOTH male and female social dynamics would need to be grossly altered. Sexual mores would need wholesale revamping.
Best get started then.
Neal – if you really want to understand the responses you’re getting as opposed to simply trolling, you might want to read this and this and this (especially the opening sentence) and this and this
Then you’ll understand why we’re so bored with comments like yours.
BStu –
I ca relate to the situation you presented and I agree… I don’t take advantage of drunk, drugged or otherwise ‘indisposed’ women either.
And you noticed one of the biggest social dynamics that needs to change…
Socially, currently, there is this code game going on where no one knows what the other really means.
Like in your example she was put off because you didnt ‘take charge’ in response to her resistance… and you sensed the resistance as her not wanting what you were offering.
This nonsensical BS would have to stop.
Socially a girl who wants ‘it’ (whatever it is sexually) is seen as ‘a slut’ and any guy who keeps asking ‘is this ok? Is that ok?” is considered ‘a wuss’.
However then the other side faults them for not properly communicating and each of the participants gets frustrated because the other wont communicate, ignoring their own noncommunication and mixed signals they are giving out.
That is why I said wholesale changes need to be made on all sides and on all levels, and not one side first… all at once, or it will just remain a mess. And this is just a tip of the iceberg aspect, but an obvious one.
Neal
BritGirlSF –
Susan is not hear as far as I am aware.
Maybe my reference to her confused you. If so my apologies.
Neal
Heck, glancing at her chest or his crotch or either’s buns without the above written permission today is considered date rape.
Uh, yeah. Fuck off, troll.
I’m sorry. Was I too blunt? Figure it’s better to be blunt than do what they do: try and conceal it.
And you know, I have to wonder—how many women are playing ‘games’ when they’ve leanred that men trash them for being slutty? How much game playing is just self preservation?
Susan’s sure rape didn’t happen forty years ago. But she’s wrong. What didn’t happen is reporting it, and I want to live in hers and Neal’s world, where all you have to do is sing, “lalalalala” and it all goes away.
Nice one, Neal. By preemptively accusing PA of attacking anyone who disagrees with you, you force her to prove you right by rightfully pointing out that you are a thoroughly annoying rambling troll. My advice, Pseudo-Adrienne, is to ban him without another word.
That said, I still think you were a bit harsh on Susan, clueless as she was.
Dear Neal:
Signs you are a troll:
1)”Men get raped too.” No one disputes this. But since at a conservative estimate 99% or rape victims are women and 99% of rapists are men, this is akin to interrupting a discussion on preventing highway fatalities and demanding to know why no attention is being given to deaths caused by vending machines falling and crushing people. If vending machine deaths are a particular concern of yours, by all means, please, start a task force, write your congress person, or invent a safer vending machine. But don’t pretend that it is the responsibility of people already trying to solve a serious problem to abandon what they are doing in favour of a problem that you think is more important.
2)”Feminists have created rape by redefining what was once understood as consensual sex.” This is like saying environmentalists have caused deforestation by inventing the word. You may believe this, but your issues aren’t my problem.
3)”But what about prostitution/porn” Do you suffer from some sort of cognitive disorder? Because if so, my apologies, but if not, you’re a vicious little muskrat who delights in stirring up anger and hurt by pretending to be obtuse. Again, if you are actually obtuse, I retract the last statement.
Also, Susan, women were raped at Woodstock. Yep, in your wonderful warm and fuzzy hippy community.
Have you ever considered that maybe the reason you think you don’t know anyone who’s been raped (apart from the girl in Central Park) is because someone with your attitude is the LAST person they would want to talk to? Have you never heard that most rapes happen between people who know each other, not strangers in the park? I’ve heard plenty of women and men who were part of hippy culture say that sexual abuse of women was widespread (and that coercion was an everyday part of life – ie hey baby, why don’t you want to fuck me? you’re just repressed, you need to loosen up!).
Which isn’t a slam against hippies specifically, it’s just that that subculture reflected the exact same bullshit as the rest of our culture in terms of fucked-up ideas about women and men and sex.
>>Have you ever considered that maybe the reason you think you don’t know anyone who’s been raped (apart from the girl in Central Park) is because someone with your attitude is the LAST person they would want to talk to?>>
aka the Katie Roiphe fallacy.
Jeff –
Sorry, but I take responsibility for my own actions, not the actions of others.
I will also go out on a limb to take responsibility for my inactions where I could reasonably do something to prevent harm and choose not to.
But there are limits with that.
If I see a domestic dispute I may report it, but I will never get directly involved again. When I was 19 I was passing an alley and heard a woman screaming and sounds of struggle. I walked in seeing a guy about 5’10” beating on this tiny woman about 5 feet nothing… she was crying for him to stop with both arms up blocking as he was beating on her with fists, trash, cans, whatever he could grab! Me being trained and over 6 feet and 230# in good shape at the time he pulls his arm back, I grab it, pull him around, say something like “care to have a go with me instead?”, he tries to throw a punch with his other arm, , I block it, pick him up and throw him into his pile of trash.
I turn to the woman to say soimething like “You ok now?” and what do I get but a beer bottle smashed across my face by her, screaming like a bean sidhe about how she won’t let me hurt ‘her man’!
Well I got out of there fast and bandaged up and never intruded on anything even remotely like a domestic dispute ever again in the past 24 yrs.
But suggesting it is my job to alter society on a wholesale basis is ridiculous to the loony tunes level.
That aint my job, it surely aint my right, and beyond doubt is not within my power.
I know my limits, you should check yours.
I will teach by example. I dont rape, you shouldnt rape.
For the record I have 4 daughters 17-19… I have trained them to defend themselves but not be bullies and how to go through life being aware of their surroundings. Not one has ever come across a situation they could not handle… they knew what to do. And if some guy tries to actually rape one he might well get his ‘parts’ handed back to him.
Neal
Oops, jumped the gun and started ranting before I got to the part where PA banned Susan. Sorry, all.
I’m just ignoring the troll and want to address a real issue–I asserted in the original real rape advice column that I thought that women reclaiming spaces that are often restricted because of rape fears might actually help reduce rape. My thought process was that if it becomes normalized that there aren’t or shouldn’t be “boys only” areas, it would go a long way towards dialing down the anger that drives a lot of rapists to rape. Not that I’m saying women should take this responsibility onto ourselves completely–in fact, one very important thing men should do to make more places female-safe is to confront men who take actions to make women afraid of those spaces. Do people think I’m cracked? I tend to think that sexism is a culmulative thing–rapists feel justified in raping women because they are constantly bombarded with messages informing them that they are entitled to control and exclude and hurt women. If we could somehow reduce the amount of entitlement messages men receive–for instance, by making it so that men don’t have places they can expect are female-free where they can reinforce each others’ sexism without having a woman there to make them feel uncomfortable about it–the end result would be a lot less rape.
>That all males, myself included who never raped anyone, should take >responsibility for rape?
>
>I would disagree with that.
Why should all females, myself included who’s never been raped, take all responsiblity for preventing rape? If every woman has to look both ways before leaving her doorstep, every man should bear some of the responsibility. To echo Jeff, it’s not about blame. It’s about stepping up and aknowledging that there is a problem, and taking steps to resolve it.
ginmar –
Wow…
I have not seen this much divorce from reality since the “Save Terri” wing nuts responded to the autopsy results!
Where do you get that I agreed with Susan that there was not date rapes back then (40 yrs ago)?
I thought I was quite clear that I feel there were.
I just didnt think that having a stupid opinion like she did (well, be charitible, naive opinion) justifies banning. Then again I generally oppose censorship. I consider it draconian, closedminded, and in the end counterproductive as it makes everyone scared to speak their mind for fear of being banned as well.
Now, if someone is just being disruptive, rude and profane especially if not contributing anything, fine they should go.. but I read back and saw that THE RESPONSES to her, just like some to me, were far more legitimately bannable than anything she posted. I may have missed something but from my experience here in the past hour or so I dont think so.
Folks here who jump out at you for no reason than that they disagree but cannot refute or offer a counterargument, those who resort to profanity and those who either misrepresent what was said (or to be charitable again, lacked any comprehension of what they were responding to) seem to be the norm… there has been one, maybe two contrary examples but the majority are as I have described here and above.
Truly sad to see minds so viciously closed.
Neal
Neal, please do me a favor and don’t take my personally shared experience and use it to promote your agenda. If I didn’t make it clear, the point of my story is that this kind of experience is just life. Sometimes both parties don’t communicate as effectively as they could. I don’t think any “games” were being played on me. I would never term her behavior as BS. She was into me, I was into her. I misread her and she didn’t take the initiative. Conversely, I didn’t bother to ask her what she wanted and she also misread me if she thought I wouldn’t back off.
My point was that I had the experience that people like you obsess over and it was no big deal. My life will somehow amazingly go on without be getting consumed in blaming this woman for me not getting to make out this weekend. This worst case scenario is no big deal. Treating the lack of getting some as some kind of problem that needs to be resolved, especially in the reactionary manner you propose, is enormously illfounded.
Piter –
I didn’t preemptively accuse anyone of anything.
Kindly show where I did if you claim otherwise.
Neal
But suggesting it is my job to alter society on a wholesale basis is ridiculous to the loony tunes level.
Not your job. Our job. Every one of us.
I’m not saying you or I have to be some superhero saving assaulted women in alleys, and I’m not saying that I do a better job than anyone else does in changing a culture that encourages rape. But saying “I don’t rape, I’m one of the good guys, so stop bothering me to do anything else” ain’t fixing anything. Start with the small stuff if you prefer, but do something constructive.
Yeah, dipshit? You’re the one who thinks that date rape was a good time and now it’s been retroactively rejiggered. Well, you know, I could waste my time with such ignorance, but I don’t.
Fuck off.
I’m thinking that maybe it’s time to start a thread devoted specificly to discussing rape that does not occure in the ‘female victims, male rapists’ pattern? Both because sexual violence is an issue that feminists should be (and are) concerned about, no matter it’s victim or perpetrator; and also so that when folks like Neal come on threads like these, we’ll be able to point to something, so that a thread about women and rape does not get derailed by arguments over how feminists supposedly ignore rapes where a women is not the victim and a man is not the rapist.
Would that be possible, P.A.?
Neal, the troll (sorry hun, but you’re entire tone is dismissive and annoying, thusly, I call you a troll) does have a point. It’s buried in there, but it is a point:
Social mores about sex need to change DRASTICALLY.
I agree. First and foremost, females like sex.
Females do not like being told that they ar sluts when they admit. Females do not like being treated as some sort of prize. They do not like it when guys they were fucking brags to his friends that he totally “scored”. They do not like it when their sexual needs are considered secondary, or hidden under the all-together ridiculous attage of “Girls get pleasure from having their partner happy”. Females do not like being called a “cock-tease” when they don’t want to go any farther. Females do not like having to say “No” five hundred times to a guy and then have the guy get pissy, or even worse, saying “no” 499 times, and then yes just to get him to shut-the-fuck up so she can sleep. Females do not like it when if they are mad at a boyfriend or a husband, and do not feel like sleeping with them, the bf or husband says “You are just using sex as a weapon”. Females do not like it if a guy takes them out to eat, buys them flowers, buys them jewlery, they are supposed to “put out”, and they really don’t like being refered to as “Sure Thing Sue”.
These things make women NOT like sex. Make it something one HAS to do, instead of something that one chooses to do, and it is no longer fun.
Men, you are not entitled to sex. This is a big thing that needs to be emphized over, and over, and over again until it sinks in: YOU ARE NOT ENTITLED TO SEX OVER SOMEONE WHO DOES NOT WANT IT. They are not being a bitch, they are not being frigid, they are exercising control over their own body. You don’t like it? Guess who’s behavior has to change?
Guys, also, do not like being called, “wuss” “loser” or “pussy” if they are not getting sex, and/or respect a women when she says no. Stop doing that to each other, don’t call your friends these things.
Once those start to sink in to the human consciousness, then rape won’t be such a problem.
Ginmar:
I think I understand you here. I’m uncomfortable with the notion too. On the other hand, I know a few women who’ve been raped or assaulted who took classes like IMPACT, and not only felt safer, but ins some cases, actualy fended off an attacker.
I don’t like thee idea of holding women responsible, it pains me that self defense is neccesary, but I want people (not just women) to be safer, and I think these classes help.
It’s a fine line to walk, so your comments are helpful. For the most part, I don’t talk about IMPACT type classes in the context of discussing rape.
As for working on changing men’s attitudes, well, most of these classes are conducted for women, by women with the occasional man as a ‘practice dummy’. I’d like to think that most of these men already have good atitudes.
The most important thing we can do, long term, is change attitudes globaly. From a global perspective, rape is far worse in war torn countries, and no amount of self defense classes will stop a gang of soldiers with guns.
Amanda: I think that really could help things. One of the things I’ve noticed is that now that I’ve got more autonomy of association, I tend to avoid “boys only” areas; I suspect other men who don’t want to deal with “macho bullshit” do too. And I think that this intensifies the effect – the attitudes of the worst men in such a group will drive out the moderates, and it becomes an echo chamber. (Look at the men’s rights advocacy boards, for example.)
And the other thing:
It is NOT MY GODDAMN RESPONSIBILITY TO RESTICT MY ACTIONS!!!
I am not doing anything illegal or immoral if I like walking around, by myself, at night. Guess what geniuses? I work during the day, and it’s hot during the day. It’s cool and peaceful and there isn’t a lot of trafic when I walk at night. If I get raped, it still wasn’t my actions that were blamed.
If I choose to screw everything with two legs, that’s my pregotive. I take a lot of risks, STDS, pregnacy *shudder* general lack of value placed on sex, but I can still do it. If you start spreading it around that I’m a “sure thing” and I tell you that you can go screw yourself, and you rape me, it was still not about anything I did, it was about what YOU did. My actions were not illegal, damaging, immoral, THE RAPISTS ACTIONS WERE.
If I decided that fishnets, tank tops and miniskirts are what make me happy and best express my fashion choices, guess what? Doesn’t mean I’m selling a damn thing, doesn’t mean I’m their for your enjoyment. I am dressing like this for MY enjoyment, not yours. You rape me? My behavior is not the one that needs to change.
If I get drunk and start flirting with every guy at the bar (and I hope my friends are there so I don’t, buy you never know), I take the risk of looking like an idiot, I take the risk of alchol poisoning, and I take the risk of passing out. What I shouldn’t be taking the risk of is getting raped. Again, this is my behavior, and it isn’t hurting anyone, raping is.
If I decide that I want to try and get to WA from ND, I run the risk of being cold, being wet, being hot, it taking a long time, and traveling in uncomfortable conditions. What I shouldn’t be risking is rape. (Well, in the case of MT, I risk being arrested as well, so I’d have to circle that state).
Succintly, MY behavior is just fine. A RAPISTS behavior is the one that needs to change. You want to prevent rape? Don’t tell me my behavior should change, tell them that theirs should.
I’m thinking that maybe it’s time to start a thread devoted specificly to discussing rape that does not occure in the ‘female victims, male rapists’ pattern?
Why? Do you feel it would draw away the trolls who don’t want to talk about the male rapists and their (mostly female) victims? Because that does seem to be a topic that gets most trolls on these threads extremely worked up, to the extent that they do not permit other people to discuss female victims, male rapists, even though this is overwhelmingly the most common kind of rape.
There is some equivalence to discussing male victims of male rapists, because often the male victim is – especially if he’s gay – dismissed or belittled in a similar way to female victims. Evidently to some men the ability to rape and get away with it is a privilege they wish to defend – not something they want to see being discussed honestly and openly.
Oh, I wish I could just ignore, but sometimes you need to get shit out of your system, you know?
Bait and switch, Neal. You started out with obnoxious, rude and out of place bullshit, now you go all “hey, let’s all be nice to each other, even though we have different opinions, don’t be so close-minded you know”… Not falling for that one.
Nice apology there (it wasn’t pointed at me but…). “Sorry you’re so confused”. As if no one could be insulted by your comments. Lol.
Eh, no, but was I unclear when I said let’s try this reversal for a while? The point is it possible for most, or some women to be physically stronger, more aware etc. than the average rapist. But plenty of women will never get that far. And I don’t see it as a failure. (Just to make clear, I fully support women getting more assertive and unrapeable, but they shouldn’t have to).
And what the fuck is up with the prostitution/women say no when they mean yes/mixed signals stuff? So is rape about sex or no (you said no, but you still spout these tired cliches.)
Also, you are a liar.
Exclamation mark and all! (Or to nit-pick, depends on the definition of “for a while”, but…)
Margaret:
you wrote:
Signs you are a troll:
1)”?Men get raped too.”? No one disputes this. But since at a conservative estimate 99% or rape victims are women and 99% of rapists are men, this is akin to interrupting a discussion on preventing highway fatalities and demanding to know why no attention is being given to deaths caused by vending machines falling and crushing people. If vending machine deaths are a particular concern of yours, by all means, please, start a task force, write your congress person, or invent a safer vending machine. But don’t pretend that it is the responsibility of people already trying to solve a serious problem to abandon what they are doing in favour of a problem that you think is more important
I respond:
Why is it that you are so afraid of letting go of your ludicrous position that rape is just against women when you just admitted that men also get raped?
Why do you NEED to have it as JUST a ‘women’s issue’ instead of what it should be… a SOCIAL (both men AND Women) issue?
So males raped are the minority (degree of minority is irrelevant). Why should, as you seem to wish, they just be ignored? Swept under the rug as if the had no value or relevance?
Because it gets in the way of some kind of “All women are good, All men are evil” dogma?
Sure seems that way.
Don’t you realize that by doing so you alienate nearly half the population(men) and some segment of even the female poulation as well with such shrill myopicism?
But ok, so sign number one that I am, to you, a ‘troll’ is that I point out a fact you and your posse desperately wish to ignore or avoid but that you admit is undeniably true?
OK, so trolls speak the truth, gotcha.
You wrote:
2)”?Feminists have created rape by redefining what was once understood as consensual sex.”? This is like saying environmentalists have caused deforestation by inventing the word. You may believe this, but your issues aren’t my problem.
I respond:
I never stated the words you just applied to me falsely. That is a critical thinking flaw, making a straw man against an opponent out of words YOU made up, not something that they themselves have said.
And your analogy following your straw man (you made the straw man, I will let you defend it) is even more hilariously flawed.
What I said is that a lot of what is being called ‘rape’ isn’t and never was… but some extremists have tried to define them as such. And of course one cannot help but notice the one-sided nature of many of these attempts. A woman slaps a man it is her god given right, if a man slaps a woman it is domestic abuse and he should be locked up forever. And I mentioned, granted slightly exaggerated, the policy of a few schools to get signed permission for each and every step (was never sure if they needed to sign off on each thrust or not) which were rightly laughed off about every campus.
That is like seeing wetlands rules being written so ludicrously that a residential backyard that has never had standing water in any part of it more than a few hours barring during a rainstorm or the lawn being watered and has never had a single waterfowl land in it or fish or frog swim in it qualifies as ‘a wetland’ thereby preventing the owners from erecting a swing set for their kid and commenting that such rules are plainly stupid and illegitimate.
THAT would be an accurate statement of my position and a legitimate analogy to follow it up with.
See the difference?
So part two of being shown to be a troll is Margaret falsely mistating your opinion and then making a strawman and making a ridiculous analogy to follow the straw man.
Gotcha.
You wrote:
3)”?But what about prostitution/porn”? Do you suffer from some sort of cognitive disorder? Because if so, my apologies, but if not, you’re a vicious little muskrat who delights in stirring up anger and hurt by pretending to be obtuse. Again, if you are actually obtuse, I retract the last statement.
I respond:
Im not being obtuse, you are being evasive.
I brough up those subjects because a great many little suburbanites who havent a clue in the world about what they are talking about rant and rave constantly that those industries are ‘nothing but rape’.
Since the subject here is rape and our culture and a discussion of such wanted to point out such rubbish right off.
My apologies if you didn’t comprehend it in the greater context.
Maybe it is you being obtuse?
Maybe it is you with the cognitive disorder.
Maybe your kind dislikes it when your statements or those of your fellow travellers come home to roost.
All in all, however, I think this makes you 0 for 3 on the Is Neal a Troll test Margaret.
Ah well.
Neal
I swear I’ll try to make some relevant comment about this issue, instead of all this trollfight. Just not feeling very imaginative, and fighting trolls is kind of fun sometimes ;).
If there was something I did wrong – it was to trust that I would be safe and respected.
I was only at this guys house because the school set it up – a tutor situation. And I trusted him – he seemed Ok. And it was an upper middle class neighborhood in the middle of the day. (Kicking him in the balls wasn’t really possible.) And I expect he is total denial about it or thinks he’s hot stuff or something.
Looking back I can see it was a total set-up on his part and I’m sad to think he probably got away with raping dozens of women. (I didn’t report it). It doesn’t take that many perpertrators for 25% of the women to be attacked.
And I would say that Neal is responsible for his flip and clueless attitude:
“So it depends on the standards you use… today’s standards (everything is date rape”
For Neal:
The National College Women Sexual Victimization (NCWSV) study, a 1996 survey of 4,446 women sponsored by the U.S. Department of Justice, defines rape as follows:
Forced sexual intercourse including both psychological coercion as well as physical force. Forced sexual intercourse means vaginal, anal, or oral penetration by the offender(s). This category also includes incidents where the penetration is from a foreign object such as a bottle. Includes attempted rapes, male as well as female victims, and both heterosexual and homosexual rape. Attempted rape includes verbal threats of rape.1
http://www.edc.org/hec/pubs/factsheets/fact_sheet1.html