Okay here’s the “sequel” to my other Rape Culture post. For a lead-in I bring you the very brutally honest and true comment by Q Grrl from the ‘Amanda presents some real Anti-Rape Advice’ thread.
Q Grrl Writes:
June 28th, 2005 at 11:35 amYou know, I honestly tried to come into this thread on rape with an open mind, hoping that, well, we wouldn’t get the same tired bullshit about prevention, the false equivalency between men in high crime districts and the rape of women, and the otherwise general unwillingness to address rape as rape. But I can’t do it. At least not the open mind part.
Having said that, I fully believe that the ONLY way a woman can control/plan for/avoid/restrict rape is to NOT BE BORN A WOMAN.
Enough said about that. Now my mind is no longer open and you all can deal with my anger at your (general) unwillingness to address rape per se and to make excuses for the men that rape.
Virginia writes:
“Actually, as a health psychology student, I can appreciate your analogy to safety-related behaviors such as looking both ways before crossing the street. “?
And not to pick on Virginia, but I’m using her very succinct summary of the posts above hers as a launching pad.
This “analogy”? of safety-related behavior assumes that all parties involved wish to avoid the same risks. No two drivers at any given time want to hit each other. The risk is fairly equivalent between both parties. No particular driver wants to hit any particular pedestrian, both believing that the risks outweigh the benefit in any particular situation.
Rape is none of the above. Rape carries benefits; for those of you unwilling to look at those benefits, the are:
Male orgasm
Male access to sex performed on women’s bodies
Male restriction of women’s access to public space; to include parks, neighborhoods, public facilities (banks, grocery stores, schools, court houses, etc.), government facilities.
Male restriction of women’s political voices (just go to dKos if you wonder what I mean)
Male restriction on women in combat
Male restriction on responsibility for other men
etc.Furthermore, the sidetracking of rape discussions into issues of how men are also socially hurt is complete horseshit. You cannot place rape in a vacuum. Rape co-exists with prohibitions on women’s access to birth control and abortion. Rape co-exists with the institution of marriage. Rape co-exists with socially condoned dating norms.
Rape is MOST unlike a man getting high off of recreational drugs and walking around in a high crime district.
In fact, rape has nothing to do with that.
But, by all means, we should be socializing girls and women differently. We should socialize them to fight back, to look men straight in the eye, to go for the balls everytime.
WHAT WE SHOULDN’T BE SOCIALIZING THEM FOR IS THAT IF THEY FAIL TO DO THIS, THEY DESERVE THE OUTCOME OF AN ACTION FREELY CHOSEN BY A MALE PERPETRATOR.
How is it that ya’ll are capapble of missing this distinction?
What year is it anyway? 2005?
Lovely and I agree with this :-) So,…. rape culture, gender, women, victim-blaming, men’s responsibility or lack thereof, dating, prevention, marital rape, “boys will be boys,” why do men rape?, patriarchy’s role, acquaintance rape, stranger rape, excusing rape and sexual assault because “guys just can’t help themselves so put all of the burden of prevention on women,” how and why men benefit from rape, how does pornography play into this, shaming of the female victim, men as potential rapists, men and women’s sex drives, relationships, socialization,etc. Have at it!
One more note, Aegis and the disrespectful and rude troll Nephandus are NOT permitted–hence banned–from commenting on this thread, due to their piss-poor and outright disrespectful behavior towards me and others. Any comments of yours’ on this thread will be automatically deleted and seen as further proof of your refusal to show any respect or consideration of others–especially to the moderator.
Gin, I think I love you.
Now that I’ve buttered you up, how do I get to write for them?
Jeff
What the hell does “you just don’t understand what it’s like” mean anyway? Do they honestly think they’re going to die if they don’t get laid?
Write something and send it in. They’re bitchy in the best possible way.
It seems that rape, especially date-rape, is more widespread in the US than Europe, or at least Scandinavia, so there must be a sociological factor.
Seem from the outside, the frat boy mentality of the US has a lot to do with glorifying, or at least accepting, rape. What is needed is a mentality change, or rather mentality changes:
1) The victim is the victim, not the cause.
2) The rapist was not doing something acceptable.
3) No, means no. At any time.
4) The women decides how she wants to dress (within the laws), and which person she wants to have sex with (within the laws).
5) No, you are not allowed to touch, unless given permission (implicit or explicit) – if in doubt, you haven’t got permission.
6) Buying a drink, dinner etc. grants you the right to that person’s company, but nothing else, and not for longer than the person wants to grant it.
… and many other changes.
Hmmmm, I should probably clearify:
doesn’t mean that everyon in the US has a frat boy mentality, rather it means that the frat boys that exists in the US has a lot of the blame.
What the hell does “you just don’t understand what it’s like”? mean anyway? Do they honestly think they’re going to die if they don’t get laid?
Nah, I think that for most of them it’s just an easy way to deflect criticism from women.
I think that part of the to-do over “not getting laid” is that we’re in a culture that regards female sexuality (when it acknowledges it at all) as arbitrary, capricious and random, and perceives the “one chance only” situation as the norm rather than an indicator of problems with the situation.
Quite right Jeff. At the same time male sexuality is regarded as some kind of primal force that must be satisfied for the male to function.
Kristjan, don’t kid yourself, nor prop up the rest of hte world as examples of rape-free societies. They may have fewer rape reports, but that’s all they’ve probably got less of.
Jeff: I think that part of the to-do over “not getting laid”? is that we’re in a culture that regards female sexuality (when it acknowledges it at all) as arbitrary, capricious and random, and perceives the “one chance only”? situation as the norm rather than an indicator of problems with the situation.
Kristjan:… doesn’t mean that everyone in the US has a frat boy mentality, rather it means that the frat boys that exists in the US has a lot of the blame.
I’d take these two ideas in a slightly different direction. It’s not so much a frat boy attitude as it is a jock attitude. And what’s at stake when they don’t get laid, is that the other “jocks” will think they lost and what’s worse, they lost to a woman. And it’s also seen as largely a zero-sum game, for the guy to win, the woman has to lose. That’s why they can, I think, so easily rationalize that what they are doing isn’t sexual assault and not see themselves as rapists or abusers — winning the game is all that really matters.
Ginmar, the rest of the world is decidedly not rape free, but Scandinavia has less rape (reported and estimated) than the US, measured per capita. I am not saying that those countries are perfect (they are not), but it might be worth finding out what the root of this difference is.
Having some Scandanavian ancestry, I have some ideas on that. One is that women, even women in “traditional roles” of 100 years ago, were and are very strong willed. Coming from a farming culture, there’s not much use for too much macho posing. That’s not to say men don’t simply assume the privilege of ruling, but there’s a lot of respect for women’s strength and wisdom.
Perhaps even more influential is the overall culture of repressing emotions. Maybe that’s a cultural coping mechanism that comes from having lived cooped up in mostly small homes through very long winters. It is just easier if everyone keeps their thoughts to themselves. It happens to a fault, and Garrison Kiellor (sp?) has made a career out of making fun of that.
Of course these are all grand generalizations, but ultimately it seems that the more women are respected the less women are raped. Seems obvious, doesn’t it?
I think, so easily rationalize that what they are doing isn’t sexual assault and not see themselves as rapists or abusers … winning the game is all that really matters.
This reminds me of a disturbing quote I found when discussing strip clubs on another feminist forum:
“It is just a big game. They want your money. You want THEM. The object is to maneuver them into a situation where they will do more than usual, for less money. Of course, there is always the question of who is getting hustled..but if the customer has a good time, and she makes some money …then who cares?”
I think a similar attitude applies in other sexual interaction – that it’s a competition between men who want sex and women who don’t. (I’m thinking the whole “play by play” sequence in “Paradise by the Dashboard Light” here.)
In response to the idea:
“Kristjan, don’t kid yourself, nor prop up the rest of hte world as examples of rape-free societies. They may have fewer rape reports, but that’s all they’ve probably got less of.”
—
It seems to me if one believes that societies CAN improve the rape culture and that there are things that people are doing in a culture that promotes the acceptance and perpetuation of rapes – then one would have to think that other societies are better or worse.
It does seem like it makes sense to try to figure out the comparative differences.
WRT other countries, we have to be very careful. Sometimes people are just plain in denial and use their denial to justify the sexist status quo.
I lived in Japan for some time, and everyone was quite fond of talking about how safe it was. One guy I knew (a fellow American who’d lived there for a while) insisted before I left that there was no rape there–“Don’t ask me how I know, I just know it,” he said. Others, both foreign and Japanese, would assure me that it was very safe, it wasn’t America, Canada, or Europe where it was so dangerous.
That would have been the end of it, except it simply wasn’t true. One of my students–an older man–freaked out on me when he found out I had been out alone at ten o’clock at night in the city. It wasn’t safe, he insisted.
The rape denial worked in much the same way it worked with Susan–i.e., it doesn’t happen/is very rare, what you’re describing isn’t “real” rape, etc. This false view of a safe, rape-free country was also used to excuse or rationalize the institutionalized sexism within Japan–how bad can the double-standards and discrimination be when we have such a low rape rate? (Much like people used the supposedly low rape rates of the fifties and the “old days” to excuse or rationalize the greater institutional sexism of those times.)
This is not to deny Kristian’s assertion–I’ve never been to Scandanavia. I know there are societies where it is not as widespread–and those societies usually have a more equitable distribution of power between men and women.
This makes me so sad . . .
“Don’t behave as something to be won”
Any advice for that? Because just being a female seems to put me in the category of something to be won. I have no idea how not to except perhaps to stop dressing attractively, perhaps gain a lot of weight. Then I could have the thrill of being something to be scorned instead. Not much of a choice.
“Don’t use sex as a weapon”
Men say this when they have a fight with a woman and she doesn’t want to have sex. Fighting with a man is not an aphrodesiac. If I don’t want to have sex after a fight it is not because I am using sex as a weapon but it is because I am not in the mood. Not being in the mood is not a violent action, and therefore is not a weapon. The only way you can use sex as a weapon is to force it on someone unwillingly, or condemn someone for their consensual sexual choices.
Seriously, this thred is just depressing.
I am aware that you can percept your own country in a too positive light, and living in Denmark, I might be in danger for that – especially since I’m male. However, I have quite a few foreign students as friends, including several women, and their perception is the same as mine.
Of course, I live in Copenhagen, and from what I hear, rape (and the ignoring of same) is more widespread (per capita) in the smaller towns, so it might just be because of this, that I percept Denmark as safer. However, 1 fifth of Denmark’s population lives in Copenhagen.
Linnea, when many guys talk about using sex as a weapon, they mean the women are withholding sex (refusing consent) as one part of their arsenal in disputes. We all know another “weapon” of this passive-aggressive type is the silent treatment, which guys also complain about.
I know anecdotally of only one woman, my college roommate’s mother, who would reject petitions to access the Pussy Oversoul unless they were accompanied by rich gifts. But I also know anecdotally of 2 men (husbands of 2 of my friends) who refuse sex as a punishment to their partners. So it’s really all about control, which is so stupid – how can you control enthusiastic participation?
Interesting thing I looked at here, and this might not have anything to do with anything:
Where the wage-gap is pretty small, rape instances are much less as well.
Wonder if the less-rape coorelates with more respect for women? Nah.
The women use sex as a weapon thing invariably comes from a man who thinks it’s humiliating to feel desire for a woman, presumably because he wants the approval of someone he feels superior to.
>> It seems to me if one believes that societies CAN improve the rape culture and that there are things that people are doing in a culture that promotes the acceptance and perpetuation of rapes – then one would have to think that other societies are better or worse. It does seem like it makes sense to try to figure out the comparative differences.
Absolutely. Of course for someting like rape you still have to rely on official figures of reported rapes, or estimates, and it is not easy to find them. Still, it is a starting point for comparison, nothing to do with having a contest for ‘this country is better than that’ (which is just silly), but just to try and consider both similiarities and differences in attitudes, mentalities, social and legal approaches, and how they can possibly relate to incidence of rape.
It’s a fact after all that rape and violence on women are a lot more widespread in societies where women have less civil and political rights and less involvement in public life.
One striking difference in that respect between Scandinavian countries and everywhere else is that they have a lot more women in politics.
The Global Gender Gap:
Top 10 Countries – with the least gap ( the US is 17th)
Sweden
Norway
Iceland
Denmark
Finland
N. Zealand
Canada
U.K.
Germany
Australia
http://www.weforum.org/
(see link to Gender Gap Study on right side)
” Many of the countries where women are fairing well have formal government bodies charged with studying gender inequality and recommending policy solutions to correct it. But not the United States — no, siree.”
http://www.mothersmovement.org/noteworthy/noteworthy.htm#wef
Neal –
Your response #124 reminds me why I have never personally told anyone about what happened to me when I was 14. My friend – just happening to be a male – and I were in my parents’ bedroom. His friend was in the den talking to my little sister. He closed the door, threw me on the bed and forced his hand into me. I kicked and screamed for my sister, but apparently his friend had closed the den door and turned up the volume on the tv. The next day, he and his friend came over and wondered why I was upset. He didn’t rape me, they said. What a gentleman. The point is that both of them thought I gave him signals that this would be acceptable, and I was a bitch for getting mad “after the fact”. Truth is, after he started hurting me, I did stop fighting. I guess I changed the no to a yes. To my attacker, I was depriving him of the sex he deserved for spending time with me. I still remember the blank but determined look on his face. It has been 17 years.
Attitudes like yours have kept me from talking about it. You can think that I used him as a friend or acted like a prize all you want. But several years later, I have now come to peace with the idea that I was not responsible. And yes, I still have certain problems being alone with men.
Your comments both minimize a victim’s trauma and the attacker’s responsibility. Your comments potentiate self-blaming by the victim. You obviously do not see the total range of behavior some people (gender neutral) are capable of acting out. And most of all, you fail to see that, although either gender can be the victim or the attacker, it is the female gender that is overtly affected the most. I realize that nothing that I or anyone else on this thread can write will alter your opinion. But I feel I have the responsibility to tell you that you are wrong.
I guess I changed the no to a yes.
No. You changed to “no, but I can’t gain anything by fighting you off.”
I’m late, but, Amanda – awesome point in #84
Mary, from my experience (I work in the kid’s section of a large bookstore) your comment about girls being (more) able to identify with protaganists of the opposite gender than boys, is very, very true (sadly). IMHO this is both indicative of, and contributes, to male privilege and rape culture.
BritGirlSF and Jesurgislac, I also occasionaly tank up at midnight, often get off work at midnight, and I occasionaly go to late movies alone. But then, I studied in England for a year, and it was during that year that I started not worrying so much about such things. The first time I went out to a club with some friends and ended up leaving early by myself. At first I was shocked that they weren’t more concerned and that no one insisted I stay or that someone walk home with me.
Although, in the end, it was the question of whether or not I should travel by myself or with other American students (that I wasn’t really friends with) during breaks that was the real turning point for selectively ignoring all this good “adivce” I’ve been given. A lot of people thought I was crazy, but there was no way I was going to curtail what might be my one chance to see Europe to fit the tastes of people that I didn’t really have that much in common with only because it is “crazy” for me travel alone in Western Europe simply because I am a woman.
In reading the posts I have become more aware of how much the constant barrage of misinformation and attitudes affects all of us. The messages that are thrown about in our culture about roles are received by everybody, men and women, and that many actually believe the nonsense; such as,
The notions from the conservative Church, women are the cause of the fall, women are to be submissive to men, and a woman’s role is to complete a man. (Not humanly possible.) I see ordaining female Priests as a big step to moving in the right direction, as well as more feminist theology available and taught in the Church.
That the folks in power are to come up with the solutions to save those they are controlling. (I see this a lot in race issues as well, it is the majority trying to “fix”? the minority… wouldn’t consider giving power to the minority… the majority is afraid if they did, the minority will treat them as poorly as they were treated.) The majority also has the position of identifying the problem, with women and rape, go figure; the problem is always the woman as it couldn’t be the men controlling things that is the cause of the problem. More women and men telling the truth about what rape is and is not, and holding people accountable has to happen in larger forums.
Folks are afraid that empowered people, in this case women are a threat. Don’t get out of your box; independence scares the crap out of guys who have built things to where they are in control and are always right. It is just the opposite in reality, what a great space to be in, one where respect and accountability rule the day as opposed to fear and intimidation.
Rape is a terrorist action that serves to keep people under control from fear and intimidation. It feeds into the idea that women need men to protect them, and that women are not capable of taking care of themselves. What do women need to be protected from if not men? What a ridiculous idea, women need men to protect them from men, that is ludicrous, but it is an idea that many put stock in. (I do not believe that long term, women being better fighters is the answer, or having to act as if one can take on the world in public. Who needs more roles? Isn’t that what is a strong part of the root of the issue, all these phony man made roles?) Getting real about who we are, and being OK with that (no threats) seems to make better sense then intimidating men so they will go find someone else to rape instead.
Blessings.
To bring together Kristjan’s comments about Scandinavia and the comment about the jock mentality…
I follow ice hockey. Right now there’s a labour dispute, so most of the European players are back in Europe. Within a few months of this happening, two Swedish players who usually play in the NHL were arrested for rape (in Sweden). Which got me thinking. I find it hard to imagine the same guys being arrested in, say Canada, or Detroit, for rape. In fact, my first reaction was that if it had happened over here the whole thing would have been hushed up and they would never have been arrested, and if they had it probably wouldn’t have made the papers.
So, maybe part of the issues isn’t just the “jock mentality”, although personally I think that’s a HUGE part of the problem. Maybe part of the problem is not just that the mentality exists, but that society as a whole has decided that a certain set of men essentially get a “get out of jail free” card and are allowed to abuse women with impunity. Ie, the issue is predominantly one of a power disparity between groups, kind of like lynching in the pre-1960s South, where people know very well that something is wrong but it is allowed to continue because one group simply has so much more power than the other.
It would be interesting to hear Kristjan’s take on this (or Tuomas if he’s still here). I have no idea if they usually have these kinds of problems with athletes in Scandinavia at the same rate we do here, or if it’s that something about Scandinavian society makes it less likely that rape gets covered up, or if maybe the real issue is that these particular guys usually play in the US, ie they have spent several years steeping in American or Canadian jock culture.
Also, to be clear, the get out of jail free card concept doesn’t just apply to jocks. See any of the multiple rape cases involving the Kennedys.
Actually, Amanda, I think he uses it to justify his horrendous acts against women. If they have a weapon and aer using it against him, why, he’s entitled to disarm them, isn’t he?
Rock wrote…
“…many actually believe the nonsense; such as…
That the folks in power are to come up with the solutions to save those they are controlling.”
The fact is that a lot has been changing from within that has led to women being in positions where they can affect change more directly – and become “folks in power”.
I saw a case play out where a child molester came before a male judge who instead of accepting a perfectly good plea bargain which would have put the perpetrator behind bars for 16 years – suggested the guy might want to think about it?(seemed to suggest he shouldn’t make such an agreement) and reset it for a later hearing. When it came up again the female judge who was then presiding – suggested if anything it was too light of a sentence and gave the guy quite a hard time before accepting it.
Recently there was the Louisiana case where the male judge sentenced the man who raped and impregnated his 12 year old daughter to a suspended sentence and probation. That is outrageous. I would be surprised to see a woman judge pass such a light sentence on such a crime.
Of course it’s all through the system and women are not always more harsh in their sentencing than men. It starts with people willing to bring charges, police getting involved – the prosecutor who decides whether to file a case. The attitudes of the prosecutor and how serious that person takes the situation makes a huge difference. There are a lot of rape cases that some prosecutors don’t believe they can win – so they don’t try it – others who would try them with the attitude of winning the case and they do.
—–
That is just one aspect – there is also the influence of political parties – like the Republicans with Bush and his personal example of the docile wife. (The last “election” with Kerry and his “opinionated” wife was interesting. I’m still waiting for a female presidential candidate.) The influence of political as well as sports or other media celebrities is huge.
People were mentioning the jocks and what they get away with. Just the attitudes of the Kobe Bryant defenders was an example of what happens when charges are brought up against someone with name recognition and hero status.
Sure people can fight it from within their social networks and that is important. But people in many states do vote for prosecutors and judges, etc. (I think it varies by state) – the more people know about the people they are voting for the better. And it’s all the better to get more feminists of the male and female varieties into those jobs that matter.
And one of these days we’ll get “a formal government body charged with studying gender inequality and recommending policy solutions to correct it.”
And it will take people being able and willing to take that on. (Of course the way things go with that – if we had one now – Bush would use it to undermine what gender equality exists – because that is how he operates).
You have a link to the Louisiana case?
BritGirlSF wrote:
There is no comparision between the number of cases in the US and in Scandinavia – I can’t offhand think of any cases involving a Danish athlete, except for one case involving a boxer who was declared innocent (I can’t comment on the case, as I don’t know the details).
Part of this might be because athletes doesn’t play for a college or high school team – they play for a sports team, that has nothing as such to do with any education. This means that they don’t win prizes for their school or college, but instead are regarded as students like everyone else, and thus don’t get glorified like they tend to be in the US.
Part of the reason why they got arrested could be that the level at which it is considered rape is much lower in Sweden than in the US. So they might have gotten away with it in the US, but not in Sweden – I don’t know if this is the case, but it’s plausible.
For ginmar:
http://www.nola.com/newsflash/louisiana/index.ssf?/base/news-17/1119653943105060.xml&storylist=louisiana
—
Prosecutors want tougher sentence for father
6/24/2005, 6:17 p.m. CT
The Associated Press
Â
NEW ORLEANS (AP) … Prosecutors on Friday asked a judge to reconsider the sentence handed out to a man accused of raping his then 12-year-old daughter, leaving her pregnant and with a sexually transmitted disease.
A 37-year-old man, who pleaded guilty to a charge of aggravated incest, was sentenced to six years, but given credit for the more than two years he was in jail awaiting trial and had the balance of the sentence suspended by Criminal District Judge Benedict Willard. Willard also ordered the father to serve six years on active probation.
The penalty for aggravated incest is 5-20 years with or without hard labor. Under Louisiana law, a person convicted of aggravated incest could receive a sentence of five years probation.
“Jones committed an unspeakable crime against his own daughter and he should be punished appropriately. A six-year prison term for this crime is grossly inadequate,” said Orleans Parish District Attorney Eddie J. Jordan, Jr.
Assistant District Attorneys Kimya Holmes and Tiffany Peters say the probation is illegal because the aggravated incest law specifies a probation of no longer than five years.
The girl was attacked by her father while sleeping in his house during a weekend visit.
How do you aggravate incest?
He got time served and probation? You’ve got to be fucking me!
Horrifying.
I would guess that the reason for the lenient sentence is that his child support is the girl (and any siblings) primary financial support. He goes to jail, no child support, they’re in poverty.
That would be an awful judgment to have to make.
My comment is awaiting moderation? What’s that for?
Yeah, Robert, I kind of doubt it.
“My comment is awaiting moderation? What’s that for?”
Some times, even for the regular commenters, if you say certain words or place them in a certain fashion in your comment, the comment-moderator program will pick it up. Just to make sure it isn’t spam. It’s really trigger-happy like that, but it does help us get rid of the spam.
Oh, okay. Thanks.
Britgirl:
I would like to add to Kristjan’s point one other aspect of culture that is missing here: The frat boy culture. Sure, there are university student men who are misogynistic and group together, but there are few official or pseudo-official fraternities or sisterhoods. Usually free-time activities for university students and parties are done by both men and women participating (who outnumbers who depends on the field of study… parties for computer science students have more men and social sciences and, indeed most fields of study have more women. But then again it’s not rare to see parties that include students of different fields to have parties to get more even gender distribution).
I also think that Finnish culture differs somewhat from other scandinavian cultures… more so than say, the difference between Denmark and Sweden (one possible reason is different language, Swedish, Norwegian and Danish are related languages to each other while Finnish is only related to several dying languages in the former Soviet Union, Estonian, Hungarese(?). So the other scandinavians don’t understand a thing we’re saying and Danes sound to us just like Swedes but with hot potatoes in mouths[sorry Kristjan ;)]). Finnish culture seems much more private and private issues are not discussed, and people are discouraged from doing so. Therefore I can’t really say whether (date/acquintance) rape is truly so much rarer. Public rape certainly is, because we take great pride in having a safe society where people can walk around drunk or dressed in whatever way. Not to say that particularly different from the norm -people aren’t looked at…
Also rape penalties are ridiculously low. There probably is condemnation towards rapists as a whole, but one case was few years ago when a man had raped a woman, and the judge decided to change the verdict to on probation for an absurd reason: The mans employer had endorsed the man and told he is a good worker (is never late etc.) so I think rapists, still get of rather easy in Finland. There is also the issue in plenty of Scandinavians (Finns in particular) to consider the own socity/country pretty much flawless and anyone suggesting otherwise is met with scorn.
What I mean by ridulously low sentences is, about half of the rapists go on probation instead of jail and jail time, if there is such a thing, is year or two. That is quite short time considering the offense…
Tuomas
Frat boy culture might actually be a better term to use, since there are plenty of young men affected by it who are not athletes (even though there are similarities between the two). Which is what I was getting at a while back by pointing out that we might actually be able to give women useful advice in terms of what might offer them some protection from rape, not by telling them to limit their own behaviour, but by pointing out that men suffering from a severe case of frat-boy-itis are probably a very high risk group in terms of date rape, and should probably be viewed with extreme caution. The vast majority of the cases of date rape I know of involved guys who fit this pattern (varients of which can be found in other cultures – see the term “lad” in the UK). In fact I think you could generalise and say that the prevalence of rape is unusually high amongst groups of men which are generally homosocial (ie those in which men primarily socialise with other men and women are effectively excluded, such as sports teams, fraternities, some branches of the military etc). Thus, if you wanted to give anti-rape advice to women, telling them to stay the hell away from these kinds of guys might not be a bad idea.
What concerns me about the US (and what may in part explain why the rape stats are so startlingly high on college campuses here) is that right now we seem to have a pop culture that admires frat boys to an almost fetishistic level. Young men get a lot of positive reinforcement for being that way. Young women are encouraged to date those kind of guys. I think that if men want to help minimise rape a good place to start would be not encouraging frat bot behaviour, ie when guys display typical frat boy behaviour point out that they’re acting like jerks instead of patting them on the head and giving them a treat. In my experience men here often treat those guys like some sort of performing monkey – get them drunk and watch them go. Their behaviour is seen as entertaining, rather than crass and stupid, which is closer to the truth.
Yeah, can you tell I don’t like frat boys?
Also, for Tuomas – my impression of Finnish culture (had quite a few Finnish friends in London) is that it’s rather more “macho” than Scandinavia as a whole. Not to the frat-boy level, but more in an old-fashioned way. It also seems to share with it’s Baltic and Russian neighbors a tendency to heavy drinking (as does Scotland, where I’m from). I suspect that drinking and rape go hand in hand in almost every culture.
FYI, I think that the word you were looking for was “Hungarian”. I’ve heard that theory before, that the Finns are related to the Magyars in Hungary.
How do you aggravate incest?
IANAL but not all incest is created equal. An 18 year old girl and her 17 year old brother playing topless snuggle is a faaaaar cry from a father raping a little girl. They both fall under the same rubric, but one is, well, different.
Another way of thinking of it is that a reasonably understanding person is probably not going to condemn the participants in the first instance; the father ought to be beaten and thrown into a pit for life, just for starters.
It could also be the case that in the state in question, “rape” and “incest” are strongly divided in the law books, and a case of incest which is also a rape (rather than some consensual “Blue Lagoon” scenario) would be considered “aggravated”.
Finnish culture is definitely more macho than Scandinavia in general. More militaristic also. And old-fashioned way is a good observation… But the thing is that Finnish women are also more “macho”, than swedish women, for example (at least in my experience, swedish women seem more traditionally “feminine”, and Baltic women and Russian women especially seem more “feminine”, to the point that it is an insult to say to a Finnish woman that she looks like Russian. It is the same as saying “You look just like a whore”). I also think Finnish machoism is rather different than, say, Italian machoism, and seems very much focused on physical prowess and drinking capability, for example. Loudness and aggressive behaviour (when not drunk) is much frowned upon.
You could have a slightly biased sampling from Finnish culture as plenty of finns never leave their homeland, and the culture, come to think of it, is actually far from homogenous (were your friends from Helsinki area?, Ostrobotnia? Karelia? Savonia? Häme? Lapland? Big city or rural? All these areas have somewhat different norms for behaviour, and if you are familiar with the culture, you can tell even without the accent giving some away immediately)
I think it is fairly evident from your posts ;). And come to think of it, I see the frat boy culture sadly creeping in to culture here, from American TV-series and movies, and I have seen the negative aspects of Finnish culture combined with frat-boy behaviour, as in having the traditional virtues of humility, honesty and reliability replaced by frat boy “virtues” yet retaining the bad things about our culture, like alcohol consumption, stubborness, and unwillingness to show emotion or discuss sensitive issues. Some of the most extreme misogynists I have met were just that way. And all cases of date rape, or behaviour that indeed sounded very much like date rape that I have heard of were done by just that kind of guys.
Tuomas
Most of the Finns I knew were from either Helsinki or Turku. I agree that Finnish women are more “macho” too. I had a friend in London who I once saw hit a guy over the head with a bottle of vodka because he was harrassing her in the street late at night. Definately not something I can imagine many other women doing (I have to admit that I was actually quite impressed with her at the time, but then I was only 18). The thing I found most distinctive about all the Finns I knew was that they were very uncomfortable with overt displays of emotion, unless they had been drinking, at which point they would become suddenly both cuddly and a bit maudlin at the same time, if that makes any sense. It did seem to me that the differences in behavior and expectations between men and women were less extreme than many other cultures.
From an outsider’s point of view it’s funny how much Finns and Russian don’t like each other (one of my best friends now is Russian). I’ve never been quite sure why, unless it’s just proximity and historical rivalry, the same way the Scots and the English sometimes don’t like each other either. Although now that I think about it, it may be the contrast between the Finnish emotional reserve and the Russian tendency to get gushy and emotional at the drop of a hat. Both sides seem to make the other very uncomfortable.
It’s sad that the frat boy culture is taking hold over there too. Of all the things the US could be exporting, frat boys are one of the least appealing (before anyone thinks I’m just slamming the US, I’ll happily concede that British lad culture is just as bad). I’d be interested to see how many other people see the frat boy/date rapist connection. When I think of the cases I know about the correlation is pretty striking.
I just noticed comment 211# from media girl, and I must say it is right on target. I don’t see gender roles abolished at all here, but the roles seem to allow much more participation for women in politics, and many other fields. Traditional roles here just seem very different from traditional anglo-american values. And macho posing is definitely frowned upon, and considered very unmasculine, and silent determination and hard work are the defining masculine traits. Feminine “princess” role is very much absent, and women aren’t considered prices so much. I think the harsh conditions and harsh history have much to do with that.
I’d be interested to see how many other people see the frat boy/date rapist connection. When I think of the cases I know about the correlation is pretty striking.
It aligns pretty well with my own experiences. There’s a definite streak of entitlement in many American athletes. In some this is a healthy development of a strong ego, but many go way over the line. (The difference between being cocky and being a prick, so to speak.)
I think the blame in most of those cases lies pretty squarely on the fathers, for failing to provide proper role models, and for failing to create a healthy psychological environment. (Not necessarily gender role models, just in general.) You take a kid whose dad is simultaneously telling him that he’s a superstar and worthless, and then have that dad model behavior that treats women as objects, and you get someone with “potential date rapist” written all over him.
(Not to take away any responsibility for the boy or man in question; he’s gotta be responsible for his own actions. But I’d assign the blame per se to the previous generation.)
Rape (date and otherwise) is a problem that men have to fix, one boy at a time.
Let’s not forget something else about rape and the criminal justice system: it is a violent crime where victim’s testimony typically is not enough to convict the suspect. In Texas, people have been executed on unreliable witness testimony, but in rape the victim almost always is considered unreliable. How’s that for loading the system?
That’s why girls and women are counseled: If you’re raped, go to the hospital and get the “rape kit” work. Without physical evidence — i.e., bruising, scratching, semen, etc. — you in for a rough ride and limited chance of winning a conviction. And if it’s “date rape,” you can pretty much forget it. In our culture, wearing a short skirt to a party is seen as giving sexual consent.
You can’t win for losing.
And in today’s news, Robert and I actually agree on something and they celebrate the opening of the very first figure skating championship in hell…
Although I wouldn’t place all the blame on the fathers. I think blame can be distributed throughout society on this one, and I’ve seen plenty of mothers make excuses for their badly behaved sons too. In the case of athletes I would look specifically at the role which coaches and other older male athletes and team-mates play, and at the fawning adulation of the press and surrounding community which helps to build up the athletes’ sense of entitlement.
I’d love to hear Amanda’s take on this particular issue to, since she grew up in Texas, where football is sort of the unofficial state religion (I used to live in Texas too so I know of what I speak).
About the “frat boy” situation:
I went to a university where fraternities were prohibited. Everyone there was amazed at the (comparatively) rare occurence of date rapes and the atmosphere of respect for women in the university. Of course, it’s hard to say if the respect for women led to the prohibition of frats, or if the prohibition of frats led to the respect for women…
But whether the chicken or egg came first, it was a wonderful place to go to university.
BritGirl:
*Sort of off-topic*
Not to turn this whole thread into a discussion on Finnish culture, but I figured out I need to answer couple of things:
First of all, the cuddly and maudlin thing correlates perfectly with my experience (I tend to become over-friendly and over-happy myself when drunk, only slightly maudlin) and I suspect the fact that many Finns do indeed suppress their emotions has much to do with the hard drinking here (it may be the only to way to get emotional in a socially approved way, as strange as that may sound).
Second, I think the Finns/Russians point has next to nothing to do with cultural issues or emotionality. For example, Finns from Karelia (where my mother’s family is from, it is south-eastern Finland btw) are much more emotional and affectionate than Finns from, say Helsinki and Turku. Yet Karelians on the average hate Russians even more than other Finns. It is a tragic thing, IMHO, as Finns and Russians would probably have much in common.
It is all about history… In particular the WW2, which to Finland meant Winter War (Soviet Union attacks Finland in winter 1939 without approval from international community or a declaration of war before the attack, Finland loses the Karelian Isthmus and the city of Vyborg, but gains a defensive victory), the Continuation War (Finland attacks the Soviet Union to take back the land lost alongside Germany’s Operation Barbarossa, with German assistance in equipment. Germanys fortunes turn alongside Finlands, next comes the Soviet counter-offensive which is [just barely] stopped, but Finland cannot wage prolonged war and makes a seperate peace) and the Lapland War (Finland, after finally making peace with the Soviet Union and losing more land has to drive the Nazis who were attacking from northern Finland to Soviet Union out from finnish soil). These events are most crucial in finnish history (and during our independece day (6th December) these events are much more discussed than the actual day Finland became independent)… And as wrong and sad it indeed is to hold grudges against an entire nation and group of people based on history it is essentially the main reason. Russians are seen as opressors and conquerors. And I think the not getting along is mainly on our side due to these historical grudges and the resulting behaviour.
It may also be that much anti-Russian bias is due to fact that many Russians in Finland indeed are criminals, prostitutes and pimps, and probably due to the fact that Finns do not associate much personally with Russians,and many who do are indeed johns visiting Russia or Russian prostitutes for sex, and johns would be quite bad ambassadors of our culture.
To get back on topic, I also agree that with Robert about the parenting thing… With the added point that other sources also affect the development of a young boy, and the model of man that a young boy has can indeed be someone other than the father, and some have many role models (but I agree that parents are the most important ones).
Readers given to reading long papers by criminologists might be interested in this report – part of the British Crime Survey – based on interviews with a properly selected sample of the population. Those interviewed in this case were aged 16 to 59.
http://www.homeoffice.gov.uk/rds/pdfs2/hors237.pdf –
It is a PDF file and there is rather a lot of it. Date is 2002.
From a quick scan – while the CIA reckons (World Factbook) that there are well under 19,000,000 women in this age group, the study estimates that of the current population under age 60, some 754,000 have been raped.
The report recommends changes to the law: these changes have since been made.
continuing Tuomas’ off-topic but interesting digression…
I did suspect that history might play a part in the Finnish-Russian mutual distrust, which is why I used the Scots and the English as an example (the Scots being the smaller, poorer country invaded by the bigger, stronger neighbor in this case). I’m Scottish and many Scots hate the English to this day, which is sad because they have more in common than they think and the continuing enmity helps no-one. One thing I’d add though – in my experience the Russians do distrust the Finns because they perceive them as cold and unemotional. Russians are generally rather proud of their emotionality. Are you familiar with Alexandra Kollontai (sp?) She’s an interesting illustration of the Russian/Finnish thing IMHO.
As for the Russian Mafia issue, I’m going to avoid that for fear of completely derailing the discussion (though as you can probably tell I have a strange sort of fascination with that part of the world).
OK, back to the main topic now…
Of course, it’s hard to say if the respect for women led to the prohibition of frats, or if the prohibition of frats led to the respect for women…
I’d guess neither – it’s more that such a school isn’t likely to attract the sort of men who think Animal House is an appropriate model for their behavior.
(Incidentally, as one who’s nominally a “frat boy” myself, I really hate how the term is used to encompass those who display just about everything wrong with entitlement culture, regardless of whether they’re actually in a fraternity or not.)
Jeff, if you can think of a better term that everyone will understand the meaning of I’d be happy to use it.
FYI, clearly not all men who were in a fraternity fit the “frat boy” stereotype. I have a friend who’s about as un-frat boy like as you can imagine who was in fact in a fraternity. I think he joined for future job networking purposes. But the term does serve as a useful verbal shortcut.
Texans’ have pretty much the exact view of the sexual entitlement of athletes that you’d imagine. Where I grew up, football players raped willy-nilly and everyone was especially harsh in blaming the victim. Some would even tout the guy’s status as a football player as evidence that he was innocent. I never understood why, though I suppose it’s more the the whole athletes get laid anyway, so they don’t “have to” rape.
The irony of that is somoene who is told that he is so overwhelmingly entitled to sex with whoever he wants whenever he wants is more, not less likely, to get enraged when told no and just force himself on a woman. When you point that out to people, they tend to agree, but until then they tend to fall into the rapist mindset and think that all women automatically consent to sex with athletes without question.
In addition, I would point out that while everyone agrees that football players don’t “have to” rape and therefore are always innocent all the time of it, they then turn around and warn girls they love never to be alone with one. Basically, we inadvertantly endorse an athlete’s “right” to rape, if you will.
Amanda – wierd story. A guy I basically grew up from when I was 2 and he was 7 with played football at A&M. Our families are friends so we grew up together – when I was a little kid this guy was basically like a big brother to me. Between 10 and 15 for me, which would be 16 and 21 for him, we didn’t see each other (fathers posted to different countries). Last time I saw when he was 16 he was a GREAT guy who I used to love hanging out with.
So, next time I see him he’s in his junior year at A&M and on the football team. And this guy who I grew up with is looking at me like I’m a piece of prime rib. At a family dinner I was talking about a band I wanted to go see and he offered to take me, since my parents didn’t want me to go alone. His Mom freaked out and dragged him into the kitchen, where I heard her saying “don’t you dare even think about laying a hand on that girl”. She was actually shaking. Now I know this woman very well. She wasn’t worried about him getting into trouble, she was scared for me. When he suggested taking me to the gig his Mom looked absolutely terrified. And even at 15 I knew EXACTLY what she was afraid of.
How seriously fucked up is that? His own Mom assumed that if left alone with a pretty girl he would rape her. She didn’t seem to think that actually stopping him from raping girls in general was an option, she just stepped in to protect me because I’m a family friend. And before he started playing football this was a great guy. All it took was about 5 years of football to turn him into such a monster that his own mother didn’t trust him.
I was kind of hoping that maybe he was a one-off case where something just went terribly wrong, but going by your comments apparently the problem is pretty widespread.
So if we take the ‘frat boy’ attitude and combine it with jock attitude, we get the all-american date rapist. One thing I was trying to say when I brought up the jock attitude is that these are attitudes that popular culture encourages and glamorizes. So guys latch onto these attitudes as indicator of cool (the gangsta attitude is another one of these popular culture wet dream), regardless of whether of what their actual background is.
A related question for the women here – does anyone else ever feel seriously guilty for watching/supporting professional sports for this reason? I love hockey as a game, but sometimes I feel really uncomfortable with the fact that maybe I’m actually financially helping to support the athlete-entitlement complex by buying tickets, jerseys etc. And I think it’s kind of depressing that even I, as bold as I usually am, don’t feel comfortable going to games without taking a guy with me. It’s just not worth dealing with the harassment that comes with going alone.
“One thing I was trying to say when I brought up the jock attitude is that these are attitudes that popular culture encourages and glamorizes. ”
Nail, hammer, bang.
This is part of the core of “rape culture”. If you watch any media aimined at young people, you will see that this is portrayed as a desireable way to be. Not only are boys encouraged to act this way, girls are encouraged to want to date these kinds of guys. They are being taught that the frat boy/jock attitude is the mark of a sexually desireable guy. Which, if my and your guess that these attitudes go hand in hand with rape is correct, is a completely ass-backwards thing to be teaching young women.
It’s also, IMHO, about teaching young women not to have any boundaries. The media is brainwashing young women into believing that having clear boundaries, refusing to participate in things they don’t like etc makes them uncool. I think that they’re reframing the whole idea of saying “no” to anything as a sign of being unhip.
That would be aimed at young people. Ahem, typing is clearly not my strong point.
I’ve been to a few hockey games without thinking much of it, but the last time was the last time. I had a burgeoning feminist consciousness by then and I was enjoying the skills of the players until a fight broke out.
The fight didn’t bother me as much as the reactions of the people in my section. The way they cheered for the fights more than for goals and screamed “Kill ’em!”, “Bash his face in! Yeah!” was so upsetting I cried. I tried to hide it from my hockey fan sweetie because I didn’t want to ruin his good time, but he knew I was crying and he knew why.
I got a similar feeling the last time I saw Jerry Springer’s show. People with emotions bubbling over into fights I can understand, but the Roman Colosseum-like vitriol of viewers to scenes of violence I don’t get.
Someone wrote:
“I would look specifically at the role which coaches and other older male athletes and team-mates play, and at the fawning adulation of the press and surrounding community which helps to build up the athletes’ sense of entitlement.”
Following up on the “frat” boy/jock etc. line of thought….
I think there are guys in frats, guys on sports teams, guys in the military who want to be a part of the culture of the group that says they should disrespect women and condones or even encourages rape to be part of the group. It’s like a gang mentality – only with social respectability thrown in. (Not to say that all guys in a frat/a sports team/in the military buy into that frame – but enough do – that people recognize it as a “thing”).
And just like it is being exported around the world – our media reinforces it here as well . Like some of the shows on Comedy Central reinforce it. Esp. something like “The Man Show.” But nothing reinforces it as much as guys wanting to be accepted by the group – and doing whatever they perceive to be required to do that. And buying into the notion that if they are a part of the group – they are entitled to whatever.
It’s bad that some women buy into the notion that these guys have elevated status – because that must encourage the perception as well.
That is a sad story from BritGirlSF and the A&M guy. Seeing someone who was a friend change like that.
It’s not like all groups of guys – like a group of guys studying physics or something – have an anti-women mentality (that I know of). I think it’s part of a creepy, antisocial tradition that is passed down in these certain macho-oriented groups.
Unfortunetly in our school culture, athletes have an explicit right to do whatever they please. How many colleges have hushed up stories of girls reporting a rape by a student athlete where the victim was the person punished. Only at university have the figured out a way to literally punish victims for coming for.
At my high school, the student athletes (male, of course) committed countless acts of violence and vandalism without every being punished. At long last they went to far when they destroyed a statue of Mary at a nearby Catholic high school as a prank. Even still, their teammates couldn’t stop decrying the injustice that 2 of the 6 people involved were kicked off the team and went around with petitions demanding their reinstatement. Even when caught red-handed, they were stunned to have to answer for their crimes. I shudder to think what else those monsters did that never got out.
Its not all athletes, but the atomosphere is one of intense peer pressure on any athlete who looks at this behavior is wrong. Most who disagree seem to either fall to the pressure or choose to shut up.
It’s not like all groups of guys – like a group of guys studying physics or something – have an anti-women mentality (that I know of).
Misogyny seems fairly common in even those male-only groups that don’t receive the sort of societal approval that athletes in popular sports get. There was a lot of unfriendliness and harassment toward women in the computer science department at my undergrad university, thanks to a few men who were overtly sexist and a lot more men who just kept silent.
For that matter, look at Slashdot. (I don’t know if it’s changed in the last couple years, but I doubt it.)
Samantha
I can live with the fighting, oddly enough. I tend to see it as a good time to go to the bathroom. What bother me is that it feels like a very woman unfriendly environment. I feel like if you’re there without a man a lot of people assume that you’re there to try to seduce one of the players. The first time I went alone one of the players passed me a note via a trainer with phone number and hotel room details. He seemed to have just assumed that I would be quite willing to sleep with him and would come running when I was called. I think he was genuinely surprised that I wasn’t interested. It was like the idea that there might be women there who didn’t want to sleep with the players and might actually be there to, you know, WATCH THE GAME never occured to him. That was what really freaked me out, and when the sexism of the general environment hit me. That and the Boob Cam that roves around the arena looking for amply endowed women to take close-ups of.
BStu, I think that this phenomenon is at its worst on college campuses. You could make a pretty good argument that colleges should get rid of their sports teams purely because of the risk they pose to the female students. For what it’s worth, I think that big-ticket sports should be de-coupled from the college system completely. These are not students, they are to all intents and purposes pro athletes, and I don’t think they should live on campus. The presence of an insular, elite group that is basically unacountable for their actions is inevitably going to cause problems. Plus, isn’t the purpose of a university supposed to be teaching the students?
I suppose the guys see themselves as some kind of a prize – because they are in a certain frat, or on a certain team, etc. I’m just guessing from the “messages” I’ve picked up. But it seems like since they have objectified themselves that is may be all the easier for them to psychologically objectify women. And to just assume they themselves are desirable.
And the whole pro-sports thing, or a lot of it anyway, I’ve come to see as a kind of anti-feminist backlash. The male sports figures have become more and more idolized over the past 30 years or so. I think it’s a matter of men wanting to believe they are superior to women (even if they are just one of the guys watching). That women can’t compete with men on a football field. That women might play basketball – but not as good as men. That idea. It’s probably why they like the Hockey fights – because women don’t.
It’s interesting that while over the past 30 years women have made great strides in schools even funding/having sports for women – this side thing has been going on to emphasize male “supremacy”. Which has made the Danica Patrick thing interesting – since she is quite capable of competing with the men. For example certain men’s reactions like Ecclestone (of Formula One – a circuit she isn’t even racing on) who said to Patrick and to some reporters, “Women should be all dressed in white like all other domestic appliances.”
http://cbs.sportsline.com/autoracing/story/8587277
“Women should be all dressed in white like all other domestic appliances.”?
[snort] My blender is bright red. My food processor is dark blue. These guys need to get out more, on so many levels.
http://www.kitchenaid.com/home.jsp
“These guys need to get out more, on so many levels.”
Yeah – according to him I should dress in stainless steel.
Interesting debate – it seems to me that my original line of thought, that the jock/frat mentality could explain the frighteningly high rate of rapes in the US compared to Scandinavia, could very well be part of the explanaition. At least from peoples’ impressions and experiences as expressed here.
wow what a heated discussion, so many good points made by many, I agree that a person should be able to go where he or she wants without fear of harm that is their right, unfortunantly not everyone agrees with respecting that right (criminals and rapists)
so while I have the right to go out at night, which I don’t I am terrified to, and I do resent that fact I am terrified, adn I have the right to live free from fear of attacks, I realize that the reality is quite different, this will never happen as long as there are people who abuse free will and decide they will not respect others the way they want to be respected. one sided as it were.
as long as people feel they are entitled to what others have, and these others are not willing to give them what they have (body, money, time, life) then they will force themselves on those and take what they want regardless of whether they have that right or not.
kind of like what nations do in time of war or in the case of slavery you don’t want to work for me, or submit to my rule, so I am going to take it by force.
I think the term is that I am looking for is pride, pride in this instance, not to be confused with pride in your work or pride in your family etc, is the feeling of superiority, or God given rights that they do not really have, it is in their imagination.
and one poster wrote that the rapist, in this instance, if punished only gets madder and not rehabilitated by prison. then when they get out they are even worse then when they went in. prison doesn’t change attitudes or the heart conditon, only the person can do that, only the bad person can change themselves into a good person, but only if they use their free will to achieve it and desire it..
trouble is, many bad people don’t want to change, they like what they are doing, these repeat rapists who are imprisoned come out and continue to rape, maybe they should be executed? or maybe castrated that way they can’t get an erection, or even have sexual desires, of course that doesn’t change their mentality, and they may still try to rape using other methods. maybe that would make them madder and do worse?
maybe just put them in prison with no chance of parole that way at least people are protected even if the criminal is not rehabilitated.
and as for those football players and other athletes they are only part of the problem if in fact they are having the entitlment mentality and are not punished for raping and if the victim is persecuted.
the attitudes of those in authority need to change, they need to have penalities for one for rape regardless of the circumstances, the woman was drunk (did he put something in her drink maybe?) or whatever, or she was only hesitant and he wasn’t sure if she was willing or not, when in doubt he should refrain and leave the area or situtation promptly.
trouble is the reward of rape is stronger than the penalty for it, since so often the woman doesn’t report it because of the victim faults mentality frightens her away, and sometimes she feels responsible, which she may or may not be. they say that about half of all rapes go unreported. lot of times the victim feels shame, but it is sad because she is not the criminal the rapist is, of course with respect to guys there are situations where the woman took advantage so that rape is no less a criminal act.
and those who do report it treat the guy like he is the victim, and you know what? alot of it can be blamed on the media too not just the justice system, of course media could be reflecting society attitudes to, but it at least continues to feed it.
every movie, or sit com (like heat of the night, or james bonds movies, movies like the classics etc, some westerns are guilty to and the like) has a guy pursue a woman, the try to kiss her and she pulls away and is resisting him half the movie, but towards the end of the movie the guy forces himself on her she resists a while then all of a sudden is all in his arms recipercating,
that sends the message from what I can tell is that the woman who resists will give in sooner or later, or that she really is only playing hard to get, or her no means yes.
and let’s not forget scenes in movies where a woman is held hostage or kidnapped or finds herself surrounded by a gang such as biker gangs or street gangs and the camara shows the guys’ gauking at the woman and looking her over, and saying things like I get her first, or she’s all mine guys or whatever, never is there a scene where the guys are only interested in the reason for the kidnapping money or trying to get her boyfriend or husband to coorperate on something, and they (the producers) can’t stand the thought of having a woman in the scene where sex or violence against her sexually is not involved.
it is probably due to their having sexual fantasies themselves and what they would like to do but won’t due to penalites, penalties which have nothing to do with shame but rather with finanacial considerations or loss of freedom.
all this sends the message to boys that womans’ role in life is sex, and pleasing the man, and that man only have to be forceful since woman like that. (of course that is only in their imagination).
of course most rape is not all about sex, is about violence hatred against woman, and i am sure most men, correct me you men if I am wrong, know that one of the things woman fear the most is being raped,
I personally won’t put myself into a situation (on purpose, can’t say if I will when mentally out of it or dealing with illness which dulls my mind) where I can become a victim, tho I don’t feel responsible to control what a man does, he is responsible for what he does, and I don’t feel it is my job to be gatekeeper, it only because I know people out there will look for oppertunities to get you if you are in the wrong place at the wrong time, so to speak, and if I want to avoid being a victim I have to remain vigilance, tho there are no guarnatees here.
but if I were to become a victim I wouldn’t blame myself, it is not my fault that a person has decided to attack me that is there decision not mine, I can’t control others I can only control what I do, and hopefully in a crime situation i can defend myself adequatly to get out of the situation. the courts lawyers and such need to recognize this.
so in other words i have a right to go where I want, I can go into a biker’s bar, or a dark alley or walk down mainstreet in a bathing suit, but why would I? if I am attacked in those situations I am not at fault, but why put yourself in a dangerous situation unecessarily?
I mean I could be dead right? If I go swimming in the ocean full of hungry sharks adn I get attacked that doesnt mean I did wrong, I just put myself in a bad situation, knowing there were sharks there.
I did nothing wrong but I still suffer harm because of not thinking of self preservation first but rather I was thinking I have the right to do it and I am going to do it,.
we know how silly that kind of thinking is. stopping and punishing rape adequatly starts in the hearts and minds of people, (let’s face it some mommas have been guilty of coddling their sons when they do wrong, whether rape, stealing a car, taking drugs or fighting or harassing others for whatever reasons, so attitudes must change and mamas, papas, teachers, police, mayors, governments, court systems etc, all must stop blaming victims for crimes when they were just exercising their rights to walk down the street or go to a bar with a few friends to enjoy company with some drinks, and stop trying to find reasons to blame the victims of any crime, (such as you deserved to get rob since you pulled out your wad of money in front of others, or you dressed to lightly, or you said something to someone, words can’t hurt you unless you let it, and thus you got beat up. that sorta thing.
RR
I would think even more so. They don’t have the societal approval they feel they deserve.
I’ve been away for several days and am still trying to make my way through this thread, but one thing has really knocked me flat.
I can’t even respond to it right now, but the following, said by ginmar in #185 is just so exactly what this is all about: “And how do you deal with it when one of the one or two people you thought viewed you as a person suddenly gets you alone and the air changes and you realize that you were wrong about them, too?”
How is it that people don’t understand this? How devastating this is?
If I go swimming in the ocean full of hungry sharks adn I get attacked that doesnt mean I did wrong, I just put myself in a bad situation, knowing there were sharks there.
Sharks aren’t human beings. You’re saying that the decision of a man to rape you is no different than the instinct of a shark to eat you.
Thank you, mythago.
That is exactly why all the arguments that boil down to “yeah, but women should still be (more) careful” bug me so much.
Such arguments have the underlying assumption that, unlike other criminals, rapists are as unsentient as sharks or cancer, and thus all rape prevention methods should focus on keeping women away from rapists, instead of the more effective method of dealing with why men become rapists.
Actually, if you twist it the shark thing isn’t that bad analogy, although the person who posted it is clearly a moron. The key word here is “hungry” sharks. People go swimming in the near vicinity of sharks all the time. If you’ve ever been in the water in Hawaii, California or Florida you’ve been within biting distance of a shark (don’t even get me started on South Africa or Australia). How is a person supposed to know if the sharks happen to be hungry today? ESP perhaps?
So, in a way walking around in possesion of a vagina IS analagous to swimming in shark infested waters. The rapists/hungry sharks are out there, and if they are determined to attack you there’s really no foolproof way to avoid them. The problem is that at first glance the rapists/hungry sharks look just like the non-rapists/not at all hungry sharks. Most men are not rapists, and most sharks are not going to try to eat you. The thing is, you usually can’t tell that you’ve run across one who IS going to attack you until it’s too late to escape. In both cases it’s almost completely random, and staying trapped in your house because you might be raped if you’re out and about is every bit as illogical as staying out of the water on your vacation to Hawaii because you just might end up running into a hungry tiger shark.
This is of particular interest to me as I live in the Bay Area, where we have lots of great white sharks. Everyone knows this, and yet people still surf here. Occasionally surfers do in fact get attacked by sharks, and yet despite them having known the risks they were taking by getting in the water the media somehow manages to refrain from blaming them for being attacked. Unfortunately they do not extend the same courtesy to rape victims.
So, in a way walking around in possesion of a vagina IS analagous to swimming in shark infested waters.
Going swimming is a deliberate act. Being female isn’t.
Going swimming is a deliberate act. Being female isn’t.
How do you know? Do you remember what happened before your body differentiated?
I believe that by definition the question of whether we decide our sex is unknowable. (Albeit I’ll concede that unassisted reason would seem to lend its support to your assertion.)
However, the decision to remain somatically female seems to be increasingly discretionary, with the march of time, culture and technology.
It will have interesting ramifications for feminist (and other gender) theories when a reasonable answer to perceptions of misogyny will be “if you don’t like being a woman, stop being one.”
Mythago – duh. After everything I’ve written here you do you honestly think I would be suggesting otherwise? What I was getting at is that the people making the analogy clearly think that a woman leaving her house without a male escort, or being alone with a man under any circumstances, is taking the same sort of deliberate risk as someone surfing off of Ocean Beach, within a few miles of the Farralon Islands. They also suggest that women should assume that all men are predatory by nature (the “hungry” part of the hungry shark analogy) and react accordingly.
I think that in the case of rape our society does treat men as if they were sharks, ie predatory by nature, and not as people with the ability to control their actions. I also think that they are completely unaware that this is what they are implying. I’m always surprised that more men do not find this assumption insulting.
I would also point out that many of the men making analogies like the shark one do actually seem to think that merely being female is a deliberately provocative act. It’s rather like the way some homophobes think that gay people are deliberately provoking them just by being gay.
Hmmn… let me try that out with religion.
Is a reasonable answer to perceptions of anti-Catholic bigotry “if you don’t like being a Catholic, stop being one?”
Is a reasonable answer to perceptions of anti-Catholic bigotry “if you don’t like being a Catholic, stop being one?”?
Obviously.
Another reasonable answer is “stand and fight”.
The portion of people who choose the latter goes down, in my experience, when the former becomes an option. Which, as I originally surmised, will have interesting ramifications in areas where historically, “stop being one” has not been an option.
“However, the decision to remain somatically female seems to be increasingly discretionary, with the march of time, culture and technology.
It will have interesting ramifications for feminist (and other gender) theories when a reasonable answer to perceptions of misogyny will be “if you don’t like being a woman, stop being one.”?”
Uh, yeah becauase you can never have too many ways to BLAME THE VICTIM rather then getting men to own up to and change their misogyny.
BritGirl, I agree that the shark attack analogy has some explanatory power, though of course it falls apart if carried too far — as others have pointed out, extreme measures and far fetched scenarios aside, being female is immutable, and sharks cannot be held accountable for their actions.
I think rape is also analagous to lynching, but that analogy also has significant failings. First, though as an enforcement mechanism for an unequal society, both operate about the same, the participants in lynching were consciously engaged in defense of the unequal society, while I doubt that most rapists understand that this is the effect of what they are doing in any sophisticated way. Second, and connected to the first, lynchings were public events, and the participants happily acknowledged that they were involved in a lynching, whereas rapists are at pains to deny that they rape.
(Some folks may also believe that lynching is different because many rapes do not result in death, but too many do, and many more women are raped every year than African-Americans in the Jim Crow south. Some folks will never accept, and are offended by, analogies of rape to historical atrocities such as lynching. These people are of course entitled to their view, with which I respectfully disagree.)
Much like rape, and because it acted to enforce larger oppressive norms with wide support, though lynching was criminal, it was rarely prosecuted and had (has) plenty of apologists.
BTW, BritGirl, I just noted from your comments that you’re a Scot! (Here’s tae us! Wha’s like us, damned few, an’ their ‘aw deid!) e-mail me at t525881@verizon.net. I have a question.
Uh, yeah becauase you can never have too many ways to BLAME THE VICTIM rather then getting men to own up to and change their misogyny.
Q Grrl, how is noting that the landscape of an issue might change as the options available to people change blaming the victim?
Because you seemed to conveniently forget the role that men play in the issue. **shrug**
We decide our sex?
It’s a decision?
You can stop like you can stop smoking?
Also, how is being target of mysoginy and/or rape equal to “not liking being female”?
I’m lost.
I think Robert needs to read more Ursula LeGuin before he launches his career as a science fiction novelist.
Ampersand: but you can indeed change religion. Let’s try that with racism instead. “If you don’t like being target of racist insults/attacks whateer, stop being black/hispanic/arab/asian/etc.”.
For best effects, that line should be practiced in front of a a black/hispanic/arab/asian person, face to face, and see what happens. I suspect it wouldn’t be so fun and easy and painless, to drop remarks like that, off-line.
Awesome, a whole new frontier in victim-blaming–if you don’t like being treated badly, get a sex change!
Q Grrl, what role do “men” have in the issue of the ability of people to switch their somatic gender? Yeah, men have a huge role in the larger questions of sexism, misogyny, etc. So what? Does that change the fact that it is becoming increasingly possible to make a relatively smooth gender transition? (Relative to the past, not to an absolute measurement of “easy”. I’m sure it’s still a very difficult adjustment.)
If you cannot think about the implications of technological change on social problems because it violates some taboo, then you are doomed to be perpetually behind the curve in terms of your comprehension of what is actually going on.
The fact that people can change external gender with increasing ease is already causing interesting changes in the movement for women’s rights. When it reaches the level of a relatively simple outpatient surgery – and it may well reach that point, and fairly soon – then the changes will be seismic.
[Bit that didn’t seem to have much purpose, beyond talking about another poster’s personality, arbitrarily deleted by amp.]
When it reaches the level of a relatively simple outpatient surgery – and it may well reach that point, and fairly soon – then the changes will be seismic.
Aaah, gender reassignment, that’s what you were talking about. I see. Yeah, it’s very likely it’ll become as easy as removing a mole. After all, it’s not like it involves extensive hormonal changes and psychological adaptation as well as complicated surgery. But nevermind that.
Very entertaining idea, that anyone would want to change sex just because of someone else from the opposite sex behaving like a moron/sick fuck (depending on degree of offense caused) towards them.
From castration of sex offenders, to surgery for the (potential?) victim, I cannot decide which one is a crazier form of biological essentialism.
Robert, I don’t think it’s fair to assume that Q Grrl and others are unable to discuss or appreciate the theoretical implications of easy sex reassignment. Certainly, I recognize that it has interesting implications. But it’s a hell of a tangent, for two reasons. The minor one is that sex reassignment is no picnic either as medicine or as a life choice, and will not become an easy option in the near future.
The major reason your thought is really an unenlightening tangent is this: unless you are willing to say that it is acceptable to expect a woman to get sex reassignment to avoid the possibility of the criminal violation that is rape, the possibility that she could do so adds nothing to the analysis.
It seems you’ve been taken aback by the comments that suggest your line of thinking leads to victim-blaming, but I don’t think you should take those comments as personal insults. Rather, I think those commenters were shorthanding a line of reasoning that, quite correctly in my view, demonstrates that the availability of sex reassignment is only of moment in this discussion if one assigns responsibility for rape to the victim.
To summarize, while the advances in sex reassignment are wonderful and have many interesting consequences down the road, their implications for rape are really about nil. It’s an interesting thought, but not on this thread.
Cut it out Robert. You can’t possibly be that dense.
The analogy was the rape of women to swimming in an ocean w/ sharks. You brought up some bullshit about somatic gender — which by that particular diversion completely hides the role of men in rape and a rape culture. It also heavily implies that if women don’t like the fucking crap they get dealt by men, they can and should just change sex. Or was that gender Robert? Like I said, blame the victim. I don’t see you suggesting that men become women so that they avoid or stop raping women.
Ah, I think I got it. Feminists should just stop whining about rape, it’s like all they associate to being female is rape rape rape mysoginy rape rape rape, no wonder someone suggests a sex change.
Do I get a prize?
You brought up some bullshit about somatic gender…
Actually, someone else mentioned that one aspect of this whole discussion is that we don’t get to select our gender. My response was to note that this fundamental premise of the argument is changing due to technological progress. I didn’t bring up the topic of gender decisions; someone else did.
…which by that particular diversion completely hides the role of men in rape and a rape culture.
If by “hides” you mean “doesn’t start from square zero and recapitulate the entire discussion of rape and rape culture”, sure. Christ, my posts are long enough as it is. Do I need to restate the entire freakin’ thread in order to make a new point about something?
You know, I empathize with the claim that feminist conversations often get diverted from the original topic, often by some anti-feminist or MRA who comes in with a song and dance about irrelevant topics. I don’t feel that’s what I did. A point was left open, I addressed it, nothing I had to say was particularly controversial.
Would it kill you to say “Interesting, but not really what I want to talk about…what I want to talk about is [X, Y, Z].” ? Instead of yet another “oh God, it’s a DIVERSION” diversion? If you think my point is stupid or without merit, then ignore it, and let the wash of all the many other things you want to say cover it over in the flow of the thread.
This is a conversation, not a gun battle. It’s amazing how much power y’all (broadly grouped) continuously give me, and anyone else not singing from the songbook, to “hijack” your discussions. If you don’t want to talk about what I want to talk about, then DON’T.
Even better, noodles, is that it’s a cure! If all women become men, then there won’t be anyone left to have those pesky ” perceptions of misogyny”. And as a side benefit, we will have solved the abortion problem, too.