What We Talk About (And Don’t Talk About) When We Talk About (And Don’t Talk About) antisemitism and Israel – 3

Incident #1

It’s 1993. I am walking out of the mailroom in the building where I work and one of my non-Jewish colleagues–someone I am not close to but with whom I have pleasant enough exchanges when we happen to meet–approaches me with a small newspaper article in his hand. His mouth tilted in a mischievous grin, he says I really ought to know about this and holds the article out for me to read. I know that what’s coming next is supposed to make me laugh, and so when I take the clipping from him and read about how the designer Jean Paul Gaultier’s new collection is based on traditional Chasidic garb, it is the absurdity that hits me first, and I do laugh. My colleague laughs with me, the moment is over and we walk off into the rest of the day. Later, as I am grading papers, I find the questions that Gaultier’s collection raises about cultural appropriation, among other things, gnawing at the edges of my thinking–not to mention questions about why my colleague would choose to show me the article–but I am busy. My colleague, I decide to assume, just wanted to share a laugh with someone who would find real significance in the transgressive nature of Gaultier’s design, and so I put the whole incident out of my mind. (If you’re interested, YouTube videos of the fashion show where Gaultier’s designs were unveiled are here and here; parts 3 & 4 are up there as well.)

A few days later, this colleague and I are walking towards each other on campus; I lift my hand in greeting and nod hello; he does the same. As we pass each other, he says with a smile, “So how come you’re not wearing the new fashion?” I give a short laugh, and so does he, and we move on to where it is we are going. When I see him on campus again the next day, however, he asks me the same question; and it happens again the day after that, and again the following week, and I don’t remember how many times exactly this man finds only this one way to interact with me–truly, other than that question, he did not seem to have anything else to say to me–but it’s clear to me that he’s singling me out as a Jew, and it makes me very uncomfortable. I tell the chair of my department what’s going on but ask him not to get involved. I have no problem confronting someone with their own antisemitism, but my colleague stops asking the question and there is no reason to pursue the issue any further.

Incident #2

It’s still 1993. Woody Allen and Soon-Yi Previn are in the news, as is Sol Wachtler; each of the men are Jewish, and each one is involved in a sex scandal. I am sitting in the same colleague’s office, talking to his office mate, who is a good friend of mine, about some pieces I have been writing about gender and male heterosexuality. The colleague he walks in, listens for a few seconds to get the gist of our conversation and then interrupts, looking straight at me, “First Sol Wachtler and now Woody Allen! What is it with Jewish male sexuality?”

“It’s because we’re circumcised,” I answer, the sarcasm dripping from my words. “It makes us feel like we have something to prove.”

My colleague doesn’t say anything in response, goes to his desk and starts to work. Since it feels like I made my point, I decide there is no reason to engage him further and I go back to the conversation I was having with my friend.

Incident #3

This also happened in 1993. I am standing near the radiator in the same colleague’s office, talking again with the office mate who is my friend. My colleague walks in, says hi, does a kind of double take in my direction, and then says, “Oh, wait, I have to show you this!” He starts rummaging around his desk and finally pulls out a newspaper clipping that might have been this one about Norman Rosenbaum, the brother of Yankel Rosenbaum, the Hasidic scholar who was killed in the 1991 Crown Heights riot. There is a picture of Norman Rosenbaum in the article that my colleague wants to show me, so he walks up very close to where I am standing and actually backs me into the wall; and he is pointing at the picture of the dead man’s brother, making a joke about how, given his size and his traditional Jewish clothing, he looks like a linebacker dressed up for Halloween–or some such joke pointing out the ostensible incongruity between the man’s size and the fact that he is dressed as a religious Jew.

My back is to the wall and there is no room on either side of me to slide past my colleague, so I stand here, saying nothing, staring at him, until he moves out of the way, and I walk out of the office without a word.

///

There is a lot that can be said about each of these incidents and how they fit into the history of antisemitic discourse about Jewish sexuality, Jewish masculinity and more, not to mention, in relation to my comment about circumcision, Jewish self-hatred. There is also a lot to say about how comments like my colleague’s can have a silencing effect on the person towards whom they are directed, but that is not what I want to talk about. The incidents themselves were relatively minor–though I imagine they take on greater significance when they appear here, one after the other in quick succession–but while they made me uncomfortable, they did not disrupt my life to the point that I want to focus on them here. As well, the colleague in question later apologized to me, explaining that he had been trying to make with me the kinds of jokes he and his office mates made all the time about their own ethnicities and backgrounds. In other words, he had been trying to treat me as “one of the guys,” and that, he realized, had been a mistake. Such an explanation, of course, does not excuse the antisemitism inherent in the things my colleague said, but I do recognize that people speak to members of their inner circle very differently than they would speak to those outside its perimeter, and so I would rather, for the purposes of this essay at least, attribute the incidents themselves more to my colleague’s social awkwardness than to any intent to be antisemitic.

What I want to talk about instead is my colleague’s initial reaction, as it was reported to me the following day by his office mate, to the silence with which I met his showing me the picture of Norman Rosenbaum–because he got the point, and he was angry.

Jews, he apparently complained, had become the “teflon minority.” You couldn’t criticize or joke about them in any way, and the trump card of Jewish suffering was responsible for this state of affairs. Either Jews actually played the card to silence criticism, or critics were afraid to say anything because the moment they did, the card would be played and they would be accused of antisemitism, a taint that was very hard to wipe off. (Note that the issue of joking about Jews disappeared very quickly.) This phenomenon needed to be interrogated, my colleague told his office mate, and he saw the situation between us–and notice how quickly it had become a “situation”–as the perfect opportunity to do so. What my colleague proposed, his office mate said, was that he and I should each write something about the Palestinian-Israel conflict outlining our different positions. We would then distribute these documents to the department, scheduling a department-wide colloquium shortly afterward to discuss them. He, he asserted to his office mate, had nothing to hide; the idea that he might be antisemitic was preposterous. His teachers had been some of the most well-known left-wing Jewish intellectuals of his time. The question was whether I was willing (read: had the courage) to engage in such a forum.

If you’re wondering how “the situation” between us had gone so suddenly from my silence at being asked to laugh at a picture of a man dealing with the aftermath of his younger brother’s violent death to our ostensibly differing positions on the Palestinian-Israeli conflict–not to mention the teflon coating that made sure any criticism anyone anywhere leveled at Israel and/or the Jews slid off as easily as a perfectly cooked sunny-side-up egg–so was I. Not only had this colleague and I never even had a conversation about the Palestinian-Israeli conflict, but I could not see how any of the incidents I told you about above involved that conflict in any way at all. The antisemitism of what my colleague was trying to do, I hope, is obvious. By turning the lens of inquiry onto me, he made me, my ideas, my Jewish identity (at least as he assumed I would define and experience it) not only the source of the problem that existed between him and me, but also representative of the larger problem that Jewish identity posed throughout the world, i.e. the question of Zionism and the Jewish State. Indeed, the implication of my colleague’s challenge was that the question of Zionism and the Jewish State could be said to encompass the entirety of my Jewish identity.

I told my friend the office mate that if our colleague wanted to know my thinking on the Palestinian-Israeli conflict, he could ask me himself; and that if he wanted to write something about Jews as the teflon minority, he should have the courage to put his ideas out there without trying to use not so much my ideas themselves, but the fact that my ideas would be the ideas of a Jewish person, as cover in case anyone should call either the questions he wanted to ask or the answers he wanted to give antisemitic. I have no idea what the conversation was like when my friend returned to his office and reported to our colleague what I’d said, but the proposed “intellectual exchange” was never mentioned again, and the apology I have already told you about followed shortly thereafter.

///

There is, again, a wealth of material to mine here if you’re interested in talking about how antisemitic discourse and how it used to silence Jews. However, while my colleague was trying to silence me, at least in terms of whatever I might have had to say about the antisemitism I experienced from him, he was also trying to make me speak, and it’s what he was trying to make me say that I am more interested in here. Clearly, he thought he knew what my stance on Israel was and, just as clearly, he assumed that it would be the opposite of his, which I knew something about because I’d used in one of my classes an international literature anthology he’d edited and it contained a standard left-wing, anti-Zionist position. But it’s not even the arrogance of this assumption that I find so problematic, and while it would have been less wrong than it would be today, it was wrong nonetheless. Rather, it was his insistence on yoking any conversation I might want to have about antisemitism to discussing the question of Zionism and the Palestinian-Israeli conflict.

I am betting that not a few Jewish readers of this essay are already very familiar with this tactic, which implies–among other things–that the conflict between the Israelis and the Palestinians somehow problematizes the question of antisemitism. Not that one issue can’t be discussed independently of the other, but that to do so, especially if one is Jewish, somehow fails in one’s responsibility to take account of the conflict. This position was articulated to me most clearly, albeit in an extreme version, by a relative of my wife’s in the course of kitchen-table argument that took place a few years ago after Thanksgiving dinner. “We live,” this relative pronounced, “in a post-antisemitic world.” He had just finished reading The Holocaust Industry, by Norman G. Finkelstein, and one of the lessons he drew from that text was, basically, that antisemitism is no longer a factor in the lives of Jewish people–just look at how well “you” are doing in the United States, he said–and that world Zionism uses the specter of antisemitism to guilt-trip people into supporting Israel and its policies against the Palestinians. (I have not read the book and, so I have no idea if, though I do strongly doubt that, such conclusions based on the text are at all justified.) He then went on to talk about how any objective look at not only the salaries of the top Wall Street CEOs, but also at which CEOs manage the most money, would reveal that–“and I don’t know what else to call it,” he said–“Jewish money” and “Jewish control over money” was helping to further Zionist aims. Then, to drive his point about Jewish guilt-tripping and manipulation of the world home even further, he told us a story about a colleague of his, a Jewish man whom he had considered a friend, who accused him of antisemitism and stopped talking to him when he made these same assertions about Jewish money.

Perhaps the most frustrating and infuriating aspect of this entire conversation was that my wife’s relative seemed to have no idea that what he was saying might be offensive to me, might be about me, in any way, shape, or form. He and I had been able to have reasonable conversations before. We rarely agreed entirely, but we’d been able at least to hear each other–or so I’d thought–and he was a relative, which made me want to find some way of being able to sit at the same table with him without feeling like I was betraying myself. So, without referring explicitly to him or the ideas he was putting forth as antisemitic, I pointed out, first of all, that his argument implied that Jewish identity could be reduced to an individual’s relationship to the State of Israel, and that this was wrong; second, I said, even though we might not be actively discriminated against in the way we once were, antisemitism was indeed still a factor in the lives of Jewish people, independently of the existence of the State of Israel, even in the United States, and I gave him some examples.

He conceded that maybe there were some loonies on the right whose antisemitism might have an effect on individuals, but they were loonies, and you never, ever saw that kind of thing on the left. When I tried to give him some examples of left-wing antisemitism–very carefully choosing ones that did not so obviously relate to the ones he had put before me at the beginning of our conversation–he went into complete denial, started not quite shouting, but raising his voice about how the left stood for the freedom and liberation and dignity of all peoples, and the conversation pretty much ended there, except that when we were saying goodbye, he kind of muttered that maybe there were some people on the left who were “sick,” but that I should be sure not to confuse them with the “real” left that he represented. We said goodbye and have had very little to do with each other since.

As I said above, this is an extreme example of one of the ways that my colleague’s invitation to dialogue was problematic, but it is a phenomenon I have encountered more than a few times over the years, even from people who express tremendous sensitivity to and respect for what they inevitably call “the historic suffering of the Jewish people.” They just don’t see, they explain very politely, how that is relevant to what “the Jews are doing to the Palestinians.” (More recently, thankfully, they are careful to say “Israelis” rather than “Jews.”) Or, sometimes, these people respond to stories about antisemitism, such as the ones I have told in this series (Part 1, Part 2) or that are being told over at this post on Alas, with some version of a statement like, “That’s terrible, but you don’t think that justifies what the Israelis are doing to the Palestinians, do you?” The idea that because the Palestinians are in crisis–and let’s be clear: there is never a day when a military occupation is not a crisis for the occupied people–the idea that because of those circumstances a Jew in the United States, like me, should shelve my concerns about antisemitism in favor of focusing on whatever the crisis maybe is, of course, a form of guilt-tripping in itself, one that I have encountered more often than you might think. More to the point of this essay, though, it is one that becomes especially problematic for Jews when talk about Israel and Palestine is the only context in which talk about antisemitism is allowed to come to the fore.

The furor that broke out over the way David Schraub introduced his first post at Feministe is a good example of this, I think. The Israeli assault on Gaza was ongoing and escalating, and not only did David begin his post by talking about how conflicted he was over whether the Israeli military action would “‘work’ in any meaningful sense,” but he also made no mention of what was actually happening to the people living in Gaza, what the Israelis were actually doing to those people. This was wrong. No matter where you stand on question how the situation between Israel and Hamas should be dealt with, the only two things that should have mattered from the day the bombing began were concern for the civilians whose lives were being destroyed and finding a way to stop the bombing as soon as possible. The abstract and abstracting intellectualism with which David started his post made it seem like he considered the analysis of antisemitism with which he was going to concern himself far more important than the lives lost in the attack, including the 13 Israelis who were killed, not to mention the damage done to the lives of the Palestinians who have survived the bombings, and not to mention the damage to any real hope for any real movement towards peace in the region. (To be fair to David, this is not his position, as this post on his blog, and this one, should make clear.)

David was roundly, and rightly in my opinion, criticized for beginning the post the way he did, and, to his credit, he recognized the mistake, though the intensity of the rhetoric directed at him made backing off from where he started more difficult than it should have been. Still, I’d like to consider the way in which Feministe’s invitation to guest blog about Gaza positioned David in relation to what I am talking about here, because no matter how appalled he may have been by the cost to the Palestinians of the Israeli assault on Gaza–and I am assuming he did find that cost appalling–there is no way, for all of the reasons that I have been giving in this series, that the opportunity to talk about Gaza, even while Gaza was still going on, could not have presented itself also as an opportunity to talk about antisemitism. David made the wrong choice when he tried to connect the two topics in the way that he did–i.e., using talk about his own conflicted position vis-a-vis Gaza as a way into the thinking he wanted to do about antisemitism. Nonetheless, I would guess the fact that he saw those two topics connected at all had a great deal to do with how the Palestinian-Israeli conflict is almost the only forum in which people, especially non-Jews, are willing to engage antisemitism as a real issue, even if only in highly cynical ways, such as the “dialogue” proposed by my colleague.

I don’t want to be in the business of pretending to know David or his positions any better than i do; I am an occasional reader of his blog; I have read his comments on some other blogs, and he and I have, on occasion, been on the same side of online discussions about antisemitism (almost always in the context of discussing Zionism, Israel and Palestine). I do not know him personally, outside of his online persona, and I certainly would not pretend to know anything about the inner workings of his mind or his motivations. So I am not trying to defend either the statements he made in his post on Feministe or him as a person. As I said above, I think David made the wrong choice in starting the post the way he did, but I think it is important to recognize that he made that choice within constraints set by forces far beyond his control, and that those forces are, often, at best, neutral towards his existence as a Jew and, at worst, openly hostile; and I want to acknowledge that it can be very difficult to know the right choice to make when one is faced with that kind of hostility, especially from people one has thought of as one’s allies.

I should be clear that I am thinking when I say that neither of Feministe’s invitation nor of the criticisms that were leveled at David, but rather of another Thanksgiving dinner with my wife’s family. I was talking with the wife of the relative I told you about above. She was at the time, if not more moderate in her beliefs than her husband, then certainly more aware of and sensitive to the concerns that others might bring to coalition-building around issues like the Palestinian-Israeli conflict. We were not talking about Israel and Palestine, though, but about Iranian President Ahmadinejad’s problematic statements concerning the Holocaust, specifically the conference he convened in Iran, to which he invited former Grand Wizard of the Knights of the Ku Klux Klan, David Duke, a man with impeccable antisemitic credentials. The question at hand was whether Ahmadinejad was an antisemite and Holocaust denier. I suggested that he was, because one of his justifications for the conference–the idea that the question of whether the Holocaust took place, or was as bad as people say it was, needed to be re-examined from all sides–implied that the work done by at least two generations of scholars in sifting through all the evidence, including the evidence presented by Holocaust deniers, was somehow invalid, that there was some kind of Jewish conspiracy to manufacture the facts proving that genocide took place.

“Wait,” the man’s wife said, “you mean to tell me that I should worry about whether Ahmadinejad is an antisemite when there are people dying in Palestine and when he is one of the few world leaders willing to stand against the United States and Israel and their murderous and imperialist policies?”

We had not, I pointed out, even been talking about Israel. More to the point, we were not standing outside of, say, the Israeli embassy protesting the actions of the Israeli government; we were not engaged in a debate with people who were arguing that Israel’s treatment of the Palestinians was necessary and/or reasonable; nor were we engaged in a debate with those people over US policy regarding Israel, Iran or anything else. In each of those cases, given the right circumstances, I would absolutely agree that my concerns about Ahmadinejad’s antisemitism could and should be put aside in favor of focusing on other, more pressing concerns. Rather, we were two people sitting in the comfort of my wife’s uncle’s home in suburban Long Island, at a time when there was no immediate crisis–like, for example, Israel’s recent invasion of Gaza–and while we disagreed on some fundamental things, there were also broad areas of agreement when it came to Israel’s policies towards the Palestinians and on US foreign policy and more. And if I could not, I asked her, in this moment of safety for both of us, talk to her about my concerns about antisemitism and feel like she was willing to listen, if she was simply going to dismiss those concerns out of hand, then on what basis would she assume that I would ever become her political ally? Even if we were at the same demonstration, did she really think I would feel safe standing shoulder to shoulder with her?

She had no answer for me, and I moved on to another part of the house and another part of the party, where, if I remember correctly, I started dancing with my wife; and when the party was over and we were all saying goodbye, the woman to whom I had been talking took my hand, looked hard into my eyes with an expression of deep sadness and–though this could be entirely my projection–pity, and then left without a word. We have had almost nothing to say to each other since.

Cross-posted on It’s All Connected.

This entry was posted in Anti-Semitism, International issues, Palestine & Israel. Bookmark the permalink.

17 Responses to What We Talk About (And Don’t Talk About) When We Talk About (And Don’t Talk About) antisemitism and Israel – 3

  1. PG says:

    While I was appalled (albeit unsurprised) by David’s treatment by certain Feministe commenters, I think you two are sort of mirroring each other’s ideas about anti-Semitism and Israel. I.e., you assert here that one ought to be able to discuss anti-Semitism without discussing Israel. (And that seems obviously correct; I think the 1947 movie “Gentleman’s Agreement,” for example, still has resonance today as a study of American anti-Semitism, despite pre-dating Israel and indeed even having little or no mention of the Holocaust.)

    In contrast, David’s consistent assertion has been that you cannot discuss Israel without discussing anti-Semitism. And that seems true to me as well; the modern nation of Israel was supported even by Jews in large part because of the anti-Semitism they faced, and certainly the support for it by the international community at the time of its formation was due mainly to horror over not only the Holocaust but the utter failure of other nations to do anything for the Jews affected.

    The comments I have seen where people express surprise at the thought that Jews themselves support Israel (“but all the Jews *I* know are anti-Zionists!”), or claim that U.S. support for Israel is based solely on the influence of apocalyptic Christians who are trying to bring on the End Times and therefore Jews who oppose such nonsense ought to demand that the U.S. rescind all support for Israel as a gesture of good faith, blow my mind. Because I identify as liberal rather than progressive, I am not certain that Zionism isn’t a species of racism (I’m also the type of liberal who sees race-conscious measures as a necessary evil), but the arrogance/ ignorance of wiping out the history of anti-Semitism in speaking about Israel just blows my mind.

  2. Julie says:

    I’ve been trying since yesterday to formulate a response to this, but nothing seems to fit into a comment box besides “Well done.” So, well done.

    I am percolating some ideas for a longer post on a few issues that your series has made me think about, though.

  3. Thanks, Julie. I look forward to reading what you have to say.

  4. Kristin says:

    PG: The point is that it’s the Christian Right–more than any other group–that has the money and the critical mass to influence US policies toward Israel whereas Jewish views are only a very small fraction of the equation, and it seems disingenuous to talk about I/P without talking about the Religious Right. It’s merely a point about political power: There are many millions of people who identify as Christian Evangelicals in this country. Sixty percent of US citizens believe in creationism. I have posted a number of sources and links that provide documentation of their influence on US Israel policy (and on other US policies) over at Richard’s blog. You have now misread me about six times. The intent was not to “erase” anyone’s history. It was a statement about *how power operates* in this country.

    P.S. It’s *true* that I have only known anti-Zionist Jews in social contexts–that’s because I mostly know Jews through political activism that I’ve done. There are *very few Jews* in North Carolina, ffs. There was *one Jewish family* in my high school (And I went to high school in a city.). We do *not* all grow up in contexts in which your particular experiences of antisemitism are all that dominant (And where I grew up, the Christian Right very much dominates the discourses about Jewish people.).

    Also, if you’re going to talk about my stupidity, it’d be good if you could respond to the actual post in the thread in which I commented.

  5. Ampersand says:

    I’m sort of in the same positions as Julie; this series has me thinking a lot, and I’m so glad to have read it. But I don’t seem to have any response to type here in the comments, other than to echo Julie: Well done.

  6. I just wanted to say that “Well done” makes me very happy. :)

    And also that the discussion happening over at my blog with Kristin and chingona is really interesting for all kinds of reasons, not the least of which, selfishly, is that I am learning about Christian Zionists, which still sounds like such a contradiction in terms that just typing the words feels funny.

  7. Mandolin says:

    Kristin,

    Thanks for clarifying on Richard’s blog where you were coming from in all this… I am quite glad to have context for your statements, and it makes me feel a lot less discouraged.

  8. chingona says:

    Richard, I’m glad we could be educational. (And for those just joining, most of the conversation is on the first post in this series.)

  9. PG says:

    Kristin,

    I was not speaking only about you, and I never referred to anyone’s “stupidity”; I referred to the ignorance and/or arrogance of seeing the Christian Right as more important to the issue of Israel than Jews are. One can be without knowledge on a subject — such as the history of U.S. government support for a Jewish state, which dates at least to Woodrow Wilson, who so far as I know was not a member of the Christian Right* — without being stupid. Stupidity would be something like reflexively opposing Israel simply because the Religious Right favors it, a position that goes beyond ignorance into irrationality of the “Margaret Sanger was racist, therefore birth control is bad” type.

    * Christian Right is a political concept that didn’t arise at its earliest until the mid-1920s, and is mostly a post-WWII reaction to the increased diversity and secularization of the public square. (E.g., there was no need to whine about the lack of organized prayer in public schools until the Supreme Court said there couldn’t be organized prayer in public schools.) The Christian Right has been a distinct political force in the U.S. since the 1960s, but the U.S. government supported a Jewish state long before that. Can you explain to me what the influence of the Christian Right was on Truman’s decision to go against his own State Department to support the creation of Israel in 1948?

    —–

    “Sixty percent of US citizens believe in creationism.”

    CBS News put it at 51%, and the BBC found that 52% of Britons don’t accept evolution. Yet the British are far less supportive of Israel than Americans are. The Pope of Rome “went there” on Gaza (i.e. one of his aides called it “a big concentration camp”), yet he also fires people for supporting evolution. So why is creationism relevant to a discussion of political support for Israel? I bet the majority of Hamas members don’t believe in evolution either. (Evolution doesn’t fit well with fundamentalism in any Western religion because they all have a creation myth dependent on humans’ being distinct from the rest of living creatures. It may be more compatible with religions like Buddhism, Hinduism and Shintoism that don’t focus so much on man’s dominion of the earth.)

    People can support Israel without being members of the Religious Right. It comes across as erasing of American Jews to insist that a position that the vast majority of them hold could not be the position of the U.S. government — that there is no rationale for the U.S. government to support a Jewish state — unless it also is held by the Christian Right. Prior to the Six-Day War, France was a stronger ally of Israel than the U.S. was. France provided military and technical training and nuclear technology (http://www.fas.org/nuke/guide/israel/nuke/farr.htm). Were 1948-1967 French politics also dominated by the Christian Right? Or is there perhaps a reason to support Israel that has nothing to do with the Christian Right, a reason that sustained the support given by U.S. presidents who were not pandering to the Christian Right?

    The U.S. government support for a Jewish state predates the rise of the Christian Right and has been predicated on larger geopolitical factors that have nothing to do with any explicitly Christian concern, such as:

    – Palestinians allegedly had allied with Nazi Germany for a sovereign state free of the British Mandate (probably an unfair assumption that was based on attributing Mohammad Amin al-Husayni’s activities to Palestinians generally), which made them suspect in the eyes of the Allies;

    – The Soviet Union capitalized on initial NATO support for Israel to position the USSR as the ally of Muslim states that opposed Israel’s creation, which alliance created further antagonism in the U.S. government toward those states (this was significant during the Johnson Administration, especially after the USSR backed Egypt, Jordan and Syria in the Six-Day War);

    – And, yes, a sense of guilt about the Allies’ failure to do anything about the Holocaust, the latest and most horrific of a millennium of pogroms.

    You keep talking about the Christian Right as if without their existence, the U.S. government would not support Israel. This is incompatible with history, a history that includes the problem of anti-Semitism as a motivation for the creation of Israel and for this creation’s being supported by Western governments. I can’t tell if you’re ignorant of this history, or if you’re well aware of it and simply disregarding anti-Semitism as a concern for Israel-supporting governments.

  10. Kristin says:

    PG: I have explained more of my take on the role of the Christian Right over at Richard’s blog. I would rather not derail his thread here by doing so. chingona and I have been talking a lot about this over there.

    In any case, I do not think–and never said–that the US would not support Israel if it were not for the Christian Right. I am aware of the history of both the Christian Right (which dates only back to the mid-70’s) and of US support for the state of Israel. I *do* think that the Christian Right has a great deal to do with US support for things like the bombings in Gaza and other highly militarized operations in the very recent past. They also had quite a lot to do with the US response to 9/11 and our own swift shift toward militarization. If you are unaware of this, I would suggest some of the sources that I listed over on Richard’s blog.

  11. Kristin says:

    Mandolin: Thanks.

  12. PG says:

    Kristin:

    The point you made in your first comment addressed to me: “The point is that it’s the Christian Right–more than any other group–that has the money and the critical mass to influence US policies toward Israel whereas Jewish views are only a very small fraction of the equation, and it seems disingenuous to talk about I/P without talking about the Religious Right.”

    does not sound compatible with: “In any case, I do not think–and never said–that the US would not support Israel if it were not for the Christian Right.”

    You say it’s disingenuous to talk about I/P without talking about the Religious Right. But what if someone is talking about, say, how global anti-Semitism led to the founding of Israel (and thus the displacement of Palestinians)? The Religious Right, by your own 1970s chronology, would be utterly irrelevant to the 1948 founding or for that matter the 1967 expansion into Gaza — the very territory in which the violence recently occurred — because it didn’t exist as a political force at those times.

    Moreover, nearly all of the sources you cited about the Christian Right’s influence on Israel policy are talking about the Bush Administration, and if your claim is that the Christian Right is specifically influential with the Bush Administration, I heartily concur and am glad we have found agreement. However, you have made much larger and more general claims than that, about “the stranglehold that the Christian Right has on American politics,” both past and future (e.g. your reference to Obama’s having to appease them).

    In a conversation about anti-Semitism, Zionism and Israel, you demanded that the role of the Christan Right take priority because “Jewish views are only a very small fraction of the equation.” Your sources neither support that claim for the period before GW Bush’s presidency, nor substantiate your claim that David or anyone else is ignorant about the Christian Right’s role with regard to the US and its relationship to Israel — particularly when one recalls that the relationship long predates the Christian Right, and thus the Christian Right’s influence is a recent phenomenon that doesn’t obliterate the decades of pro-Israel and not pro-Palestinian actions taken before it. http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/UN/usvetoes.html

  13. Kristin says:

    Okay, obviously, PG, we’re unable to have a conversation about this. I tried to explain my point of view, and you keep completely distorting the words I use even after I tried to clarify.

    The CR had a huge in with the Bush presidency–it all started with the Reagan administration, though. I’m really not interested in going into this here. Also, I doubt you were able to pick up all of the books that I talk about on Richad’s blog (Goldberg, Hedges, Brown, etc.?) and read them in full over the last several hours? Those sources talk more about the role of the Christian Right, above and beyond the Bush administration. A more detailed scholarly account is not at my fingertips on the internets, but again… I maintain that some things are being missed. Will not argue that with you here, though.

    Also, I’m 29. The Bush admin. lasted for most of my adult life. When I talk about US politics (and current conglomerations of power), I’m not often speaking about the entirety of its history. Sorry about the misunderstanding.

  14. PG says:

    Kristin,

    I’m sorry if I am distorting your words; I do not do it intentionally.

    Your explanation of your point of view seems to keep coming down to: “the Christian Right is much more important than Jews in the American view of Israel, therefore anyone who discusses Israel — even if the frame of their discussion is specifically anti-Semitism and Zionism — is obligated to talk about the Christian Right.” I’ve reviewed your comments at Richard’s blog and here, and that appears to be the summary, with the rationale being, “I don’t personally know any Zionist Jews; all the Zionists I know are members of the Christian Right; the Christian Right has tremendous influence on GW Bush [a point where I agree with you]; therefore no discussion of Israel can leave out the Christian Right.”

    I suppose we will have to agree to disagree on whether Jews should be able to discuss anti-Semitism and Zionism as related to Israel without putting their focus on the Christian Right.

  15. Kristin says:

    I didn’t think the *focus* had to be there. I thought it was odd to overlook it entirely, however–and that it probably weakened the original posts in question. Also, I wasn’t talking about a post for Jewish people–and among Jewish people–about antisemitism. I was talking about posts directed at a wider audience designated as “the left.” I’m sorry about the misunderstanding. I have not explained the entirety of my position there, only articulated it a little further and provided links and book sources, etc.

    The summary of my position actually boils down to two major points:

    1. If one is going to talk about antisemitism in the US, one would do well to include the Christian Right, since they like to talk *about* Jews in an essentializing way more than anyone else I’ve ever met. Ever. And, no, it doesn’t fall into the most traditional antisemitic tropes, but it’s prejudice even so. I also think–whether you or I like it or not–they dominate the way in which a lot of Americans think about Jews (i.e. relatives of Jesus, as chingona says) and strike me as a huge block that deserves deconstructing. Now, again, if one’s focus must be on “the left,” then that’s one thing, I’ll admit. If it’s on antisemitism in America, it seems a vast oversight.

    2. Since Reagan, the Christian Right’s “fetishization” of Jewish people has had a huge impact on US policy toward Israel. So… Remember that these discussions started out about Israel? If the discussion is about Israel and its military policies (and all of these threads were framed in the beginning by the relationship of Jews to Israel), then it doesn’t make sense to me *not* to talk about the US (or the Christian Right’s) involvement in helping to shape those policies. Why? Because those policies are arguably *not* making Jews more secure and safe all over the world. And, at a minimum, we Americans share some complicity in some of the worst abuses that have happened there. We pay for them. It seems like their might be ways of making our country’s aid a little less poisonous for everyone.

    I thought it was an oversight. A hole in the argument. It’s my view that this movement (the Christian Right) poses the greatest danger to American democracy that we now face, and well… We’re still hegemonic enough to do quite a bit of damage. It was a response to earlier posts and earlier threads, but I’d honestly rather not fight about it. I am sorry that you read it as an erasure of Jewish history. I can understand how that could happen. I didn’t mean it that way and will try to be more careful about my wording.

  16. PG says:

    Kristin,

    Thanks for the clarification. You seem to be thinking about the Feministe posts as framed by their audience (leftish people, mostly women, of various backgrounds), whereas I thought of them as framed by the writer (explicitly positioning himself as an anti-subordination Jew talking about anti-Semitism). So to you they failed to account for concerns on the left that the audience would expect to be addressed (such as the role of the Christian Right in setting U.S. policy toward Israel that goes beyond the basic support for its existence as a Jewish state), whereas to me those concerns seemed at best ancillary to the explicit focus of the posts, i.e. the writer’s concept of Israel and Zionism as Jews’ anti-subordination response to global, historic and still-present anti-Semitism.

    I think the Christian Right is a threat not really to simple democracy (there’s nothing in their belief system that’s antithetical to majority rule, especially so long as they are the largest group and other groups are not coalitioned against them), but potentially to our liberal Constitution as it protects minorities and freedom of belief. The Christian Right has set up the judiciary as the great enemy, and in this has allied with many conservatives and libertarians who are not themselves Christian Right (or even necessarily Christian) but who dislike judicial enforcement of individual rights for non-religious reasons: business interests, maintenance of racial and socioeconomic privilege, occasionally even a sincere belief that judges are overreaching. I think the ways in which the Christian Right influences the very structure of our law — how can I enforce my rights? how can I gain redress for wrongs done to me or my community? — is much further reaching than their influence on foreign policy, which is under more constraints from other actors than these domestic questions are.

  17. Roberta W. says:

    Hello, I am submitting this again because I wrote a word mistakenly the first time around. Thank you.

    At last, a civilized and intelligent discussion about Gaza and anti-Semitism. I do agree that the focus needs to remain on the awful situation that the Gazans are in, only compounding the misery they’ve lived through for some time. That said, I do want to reply to those who are asking why anti-Semitism is being highlighted so strongly when it’s not the Jews (for the most part) who are running for cover. It’s because of over a thousand years of history, friends. We have to take anti-Semitism seriously as a threat because it has so often been backed up by actual, sickening violence.

    Kristin, you said you received hate literature equating Jews with a conspiracy involving 9-11. You were able to dismiss it as some kind of statement of fringe group. Well, that is the way the Nazis started out, too. If you’ve lost most of your family to this kind of violence, you worry to see these sentiments starting up again, and you want others to speak out, too. What looks harmless to you may not to me. (P.S. I’ve also appreciated your posts; your points are well-thought-out and reflect a humane sensibility.)

    Well, where is the middle ground? Perhaps in these kinds of dialogues. Thank you, everyone, for participating. Pray for the people of Gaza, and help to get them aid.
    This comment was written by Roberta W..

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